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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back. This is Tonya Pinkins of You Can't SAY THAT. You are listening to part two of my conversation with founder of Image Nation, Moikgantsi Kgama.

[0:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: We gotta see life. We gotta say we'll see you.

[0:27] Tonya Pinkins: We don't disagree about a whole lot, do we? Except that I like Black Panther and I like Watchmen.

[0:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, you liked them.

[0:35] Tonya Pinkins: I liked them. I thought they were beautiful. I was, but it never surprises me that we do beautiful things.

[0:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[0:42] Tonya Pinkins: So do you know what I'm saying? Like I wasn't like, oh my God. I was like, of course. You give us some money, it's gonna be fabulous.

[0:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[0:48] Tonya Pinkins: Look what we do with $2.

[0:49] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right.

[0:50] Tonya Pinkins: So give us $20 million. You know, give us $100 million. It's gonna be beyond what you could ever have fathomed. That doesn't surprise me. But I do think that there's something that you need that. You need the aspirational experiences. We need them. Our kids need them. But I also think, you know, we have to be realistic. You cannot expect other folks to educate your kids. You can't expect them to educate our communities.

[1:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, yes.

[1:13] Tonya Pinkins: You know, like if I have the time, and I don't have the time, one of the things I was trying to start, and I said, all right, Tonya, let that go, was a culture club for kids. Because I always thought, you know, these Hebrew schools are really smart. Like, you know, they want their kids to understand their culture, they're teaching them themselves in their communities. They're not going up to the mainstream school saying, why aren't you teaching Hebrew history and language? They're doing it themselves.

[1:38] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so I said, well, you know, I think we need to have a culture club for the kids in Harlem. And so I realized I can't do everything, so I've moved on from that. But there are great organizations like Brosis, Brotherhood, Sisterhood Soul, which is an amazing organization that I'm trying to enroll my son in. And I'm looking for a place to do that because I don't think it's realistic to expect other people to do that for us.

[1:58] Tonya Pinkins: I agree. So if we take our kids to see those movies, or if we're challenging the content, it's important, do it at home. Have the conversation. Now, you know, I got to play devil's advocate on that because there's some people who don't have the money, don't have the time.

[2:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: Uh, the money to do what?

[2:13] Tonya Pinkins: To read a book. To take to pay for them to go to the program.

[2:17] Moikgantsi Kgama: No, no, you're right. You're right. But I'm saying you can always do it in your home. But you know, there's some people who don't like reading, they don't want to read a book, they don't want to buy a book. I mean, you know, that's the reality.

[2:28] Tonya Pinkins: So part of me, I'm always looking for the lemonade and the lemons. I'm like, if Betsy DeVos shuts down the Department of Education, then we will have to educate our own. And that could be a very good thing for us. Or that could be a very horrific thing for us.

[2:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: I mean, couldn't I mean come on? We work, we're paying taxes. We, you know, we should have an education. We shouldn't have, you know, right. But we should not be like you said, we should not be dependent on them for the education, where Texas is deciding what the school curriculum is for most of the country, and slaves were happy workers, you know, and also assets on the balance sheet.

[3:03] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[3:04] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right. No, absolutely, you know, but I'm saying, like, I think we should keep fighting for what the government's supposed to give us, but on the side, take care of your business, take care of your own.

[3:13] Tonya Pinkins: Agreed.

[3:14] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, absolutely. You know, my little son, I don't know, he's so contrary. Anytime I try to talk to him about black history, he's like, like, I'm too black for him.

[3:25] Tonya Pinkins: But you know, he was reading Harriet Tubman and Frederick Douglass when he was like three and four. So, as much as he might be going through this rebellious phase, it's in there. You know, Kamala, Camilla Forbes was telling me that her kid goes to a school that's very, very pro-black, like buy that, buy black, support black, something else. There's a whole phrase.

[3:43] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so she was taking her daughter to the dentist. And it's like, is it a black dentist? Because we have to buy black, you know, be black.

[3:50] Tonya Pinkins: She was like, Oh, then you know, calling her husband, like, is it a black dentist?

[3:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: What school is that?

[3:57] Tonya Pinkins: It's in Brooklyn, you know. You gotta ask Camilla. It's a private school.

[4:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: Uh, it's a private preschool because her daughter's three.

[4:02] Tonya Pinkins: Ah, okay. So it's a preschool.

[4:05] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes.

[4:05] Tonya Pinkins: That's awesome.

[4:06] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah. My son goes to a very progressive school. But it's not, you know, it's not that. But it's very so I like this school.

[4:12] Tonya Pinkins: What does progressive mean? Because progressive for me actually is coming to take on a negative connotation.

[4:17] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, um, okay, good things. Like last year, his teacher taught them about Harlem Renaissance.

[4:23] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[4:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right. And so they learned all about Harlem, Harlem history, and Harlem culture. Um, this year they're focusing on indigenous Americans. And they teach it from a very, um, you know, historically, I think, sound perspective, right? So that's great. Um, but also like the I, you know, I had an issue with this. I hope nobody gets mad at me, but they had my son wearing the little um the little um ribbon, rainbow ribbon.

[4:46] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[4:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: The rainbow ribbon, though.

[4:48] Tonya Pinkins: Right, right, right.

[4:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right? And so I, you know, so their thing is the LGBTQ community. And so, um, which I'm in support of, but I was kinda like, okay, kids are getting shot left and right by the cops. There's all these things happening in the black community. You live in Harlem, the school is in Harlem. Why do you have that ribbon on? Why don't you have one a different ribbon? Or Black Lives Matter ribbon.

[5:08] Tonya Pinkins: Right, exactly.

[5:08] Moikgantsi Kgama: I was like, what about Black Lives Matter? Why are we talking about that? So it's progressive because I feel like um, oh Lord, I probably shouldn't be saying this stuff time, you're gonna give me in trouble. But I feel like in some ways, um, you know, the LGBT community um can be like the cause du jour.

[5:25] Tonya Pinkins: Right?

[5:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, but let's keep it. Let's talk about why. The LGBT community can do that because there's a lot of white men in that community who can be invisible in that community and still exercise a lot of power.

[5:38] Tonya Pinkins: Well, yeah, and money because there's been a huge branding campaign behind that.

[5:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: But they're patriarchs. They have a whole bunch of patriarchs sitting in the house of power who can advocate for their issues. We can't, you know, forget that.

[5:48] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly.

[5:49] Moikgantsi Kgama: And so that frustrates me, you know, and if that has frustrated me about the school because he had this little ribbon on. Was this? He's nine, so he might have been seven. He had his little ribbon on. I said, Cari, why are you wearing that ribbon? He said, Mommy, I'm a part of the LGBTQ community.

[6:05] Tonya Pinkins: I said, Really? Really? In what way?

[6:13] Moikgantsi Kgama: He was like, I am. I said, really? I said, okay. Um, do you know what that means? And he was like, you know, just mad. And I said, Well, would you like to marry a boy? If you would, it's okay. Do you think you might want to marry a boy when you grow up? And he said, no. I said, okay. Do you not know if it's to be a boy or a girl? He's like, no, I think it'll be a girl. I said, so in what way are you a part of this community, baby? And he was just like, I am.

[6:48] Tonya Pinkins: That's okay.

[6:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: I said, okay, it's fine. You can be, you're right. You are. You're a part of that community, and they're part of our community. We're one community. We're all human beings. But it annoyed me that it had him wearing that little ribbon, and he really didn't know what it meant.

[7:01] Tonya Pinkins: Right, right. Well, you know, speaking of what things meant, someone told me that um at the school that their kid goes to in Harlem, they don't teach the alphabet anymore because they said that the kids know the alphabet song, but they didn't know what the alphabet. So at this school, they're teaching them the QWERTY keyboard.

[7:16] Moikgantsi Kgama: Was that happening at Joe Child school?

[7:17] Tonya Pinkins: This child is eight.

[7:18] Moikgantsi Kgama: No.

[7:19] Tonya Pinkins: And they don't teach in the alphabet.

[7:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: You had taught them.

[7:22] Tonya Pinkins: You had taught your child the alphabet.

[7:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah.

[7:24] Tonya Pinkins: Exactly.

[7:25] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, that's very confusing.

[7:26] Tonya Pinkins: Well, that's what I was told. They don't teach the alphabet at some schools.

[7:29] Moikgantsi Kgama: What does it mean to teach the QWERTY keyboard?

[7:30] Tonya Pinkins: You know, the keyboard, the Q U, what I don't even know the QWERTY keyboard.

[7:34] Moikgantsi Kgama: I guess it's Q-W-E-R-T-Y, but that's what they teach them. Instead of the alphabet order, A B C D E F G, they teach the keyboard.

[7:36] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, the order.

[7:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: They teach the keyboard instead of the alphabet.

[7:44] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, how weird.

[7:46] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, no, no. Um but my my by the time my son got to school, he knew all that. He was good. So I never experienced anything so strange.

[7:54] Tonya Pinkins: Okay. Although the new math, I don't get the new math.

[7:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: What is the new math?

[7:57] Tonya Pinkins: They do math differently now.

[7:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: How?

[7:58] Tonya Pinkins: Uh, you know how we did it vertically, it's done horizontally.

[8:01] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[8:01] Tonya Pinkins: And then they have to like explain how they got to those numbers. It's really different. And when I it confuses a mess out of me. I hate to admit it. I'm like, baby, I'll help you with the reading homework.

[8:11] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right, right, right.

[8:12] Tonya Pinkins: Like, I don't get this. And when I try to help him with his homework, I'm always doing it the way I was taught. We'll have the same answers.

[8:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Correct.

[8:19] Tonya Pinkins: But he gets frustrated because I don't understand how he got there. And I try to tell him how I got there. And you know, we're both frustrated. But my kid's really good at math, so it's okay. And that's a strange thing, because like for me, I have an intuitive understanding of math. And so sometimes I just can know what a math answer is, but if you ask me to like do it, I can't do it.

[8:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: Like if I had to just do an addition equation, I'm probably gonna get it wrong.

[8:46] Tonya Pinkins: But in my head, I can do things. I don't even understand what that is.

[8:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay, maybe you're gifted.

[8:53] Tonya Pinkins: Maybe so, maybe so. We're all gifted in some kind of ways.

[8:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, they're they're they require them to like to not only it's kind of useless now since we all have calculators in our hands.

[9:02] Tonya Pinkins: Well, maybe I think it's so that you can do bigger math. And so that you can get into other um theoretical math. I think that's that's the point. But um, like how many people are gonna do that? I mean, I don't know. And they really gonna use calculators. They're gonna use quantum calculators and quantum computers to do bigger math. Like, I mean, I think it's important to know so that you can like not get robbed when you go to the store. You can, you know, measure some stuff out like that.

[9:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes, that's important.

[9:25] Tonya Pinkins: And quantities for cooking or, you know, measuring, building things. I think math is important for that.

[9:31] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, I I don't have a problem with it. I'm like, you know, if it makes you competitive internationally, it's great. And if it allows him to go into it's because he wants to go into science.

[9:39] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay.

[9:40] Moikgantsi Kgama: He thinks, he thinks, you know, he's nine, he don't really know. Um he could be one of those LBDBT Hugh alphabet people too by the time he gets there.

[9:48] Tonya Pinkins: He could be. He might know what it means.

[9:50] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right. He was just like, I don't know, mommy, but I am. But um, but you know, so to me, I I like the way his school teaches and that you know he's getting exposed to everything, but you know, it's just the cultural perspective of, you know, I really would appreciate if you all dealt with Black Lives Matter a little bit here. Because look where you are, right?

[9:55] Tonya Pinkins: You know.

[10:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: So, how do we get our artists to the uh our community? How do we get it to them? How do we cultivate our get our work to our community?

[10:19] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I mean, like uh Tyler Perry did it. He went to the beauty shops and he got things out there. And I because I think we're thirsty. We are thirsty for images of ourselves. And I think that the dominant culture often doesn't go after us until they need us to start their network. But like, what is the way that we we satisfy our thirst so that we just don't allow dominant culture to always um captivate our attention with the shiny things they give us that can be full of the propaganda that I see.

[10:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: How do we I mean I've I've been I guess that's what I've been doing for 20 some months.

[10:56] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, well, so what's your what are you doing? How do you do it?

[10:58] Moikgantsi Kgama: We but you know, I was gonna say it's getting harder because it's getting noisier, right? Right now, everything um is moving towards social media. So you really have to be in those spaces, and you still have to be in the community spaces as well. Cause I think having the community connection, having the offline connection is what allows people to break through the noise, right? Because I so much is coming at us at all times.

[11:22] Tonya Pinkins: So much.

[11:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: So I mean, my strategy for marketing films has always been but not even just films. Like, how do you let anybody know about anything?

[11:29] Tonya Pinkins: Go ahead, tell me your strategy.

[11:30] Moikgantsi Kgama: Well, I mean, you know, I think my strategy comes from an organizing, right? Or because the people who who mentored me were organizers.

[11:36] Tonya Pinkins: Activate activists.

[11:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: Activists. Yeah. So I mean, to me, it's always a multi-pronged approach. Um, and the first thing you want to do is have your communities identified. Like, who are the communities that can relate to this particular topic? And I want to get them directly involved. I want them to be my ambassadors. I don't want to do this alone. You know, and I think that's that's the one thing we have to realize. You can't do anything alone.

[11:59] Tonya Pinkins: No.

[12:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: Right. You really can't. And that's that that's something that's really starting to resonate for me personally as I'm trying to build this this business. But um getting your other people in line and getting your ambassadors in line, reaching into your your community, figuring out all the people who are willing to carry your message forward. And then making sure you have good tools so that they can do that. You know, people don't like to like you have to have good graphics, you have to have good materials, you need to have a good trailer. You need to just have those those basic things in place.

[12:27] Tonya Pinkins: And then um capturing, constantly capturing the information and the um the content for the people who are participating. Make sure you make sure you've got your your social media pages and that you're constantly building community there. Make sure at your events you're taking information and you're building a list so that you can keep reaching back when more is done. Because people are always going, what's next? What's next? I want to know what's next. So let them know what's next. So I mean, I think it's it's that constant communication and that and that back and forth that helps you build community and build audience, no matter what you're doing.

[13:01] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, you know, of course you want to have it'd be nice to have some money, but you can you know that'd be nice, right? It'd be nice to be able to do it.

[13:09] Tonya Pinkins: I read online where you said that you found that uh you that our community, the Afro-Cuban, you know, com American community, we like the talk back. That's that's something you build and we like the talk back. What do you think that is?

[13:21] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, because well, I don't think I mean maybe and I think it might be the audience I I appeal to also. I I know I have an audience of people who are really conscious and really engaged. So, you know, after you've sat there and watched someone's someone's statement, you know, because every film's a statement. You've watched this 55 minute, 120 minute statement, people really relish the opportunity to deconstruct. Because it's like, what do I do with that? You know, because I don't show the kind of films that just kind of wash over you.

[13:47] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[13:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: You know, that you you're you're you're uh inspired to think. And so then there's a the point where you want to deconstruct and dialogue. And I think, you know, that's not just black people, I think it's all people, honestly. If you show somebody something of substance, they want to talk about it.

[14:01] Tonya Pinkins: I went to um the Art House Convergence Conference last year, um, which is a conference that happens right before Sundance, and it's comprised of people who own Art House movie theaters and who make and who do film festivals.

[14:13] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[14:13] Tonya Pinkins: And I mean, you know, I would say it was mostly an older white crowd. And I found my tribe.

[14:20] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, what's your tribe?

[14:21] Tonya Pinkins: What those older white folks, I guess.

[14:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[14:25] Tonya Pinkins: But because they were, you know, I I was at a place for the first time.

[14:28] Moikgantsi Kgama: That I love that conference.

[14:29] Tonya Pinkins: You know, I didn't go back this year because I'm working on getting the space open, but that's a place where everybody was doing what I'm doing. Everybody was opening, was was managing these independent art house spaces. A lot of them were nonprofits, and they all saw their job as creating community.

[14:43] Moikgantsi Kgama: That's the job of the art house center.

[14:45] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. And so they're showing progressive works and they're also having the conversations. How do I do this better as a white person? How do I engage the black community better?

[14:54] Moikgantsi Kgama: How do I not do it in a superficial way? I was amazed at the conversations they were having of that. They even cared. I love that. It was great. It was really great. Um for me, nah, I wasn't there for that. I was there for the nuts and bolts of how do I run my business. But to be able to talk to people who had been doing it for many years or who had just started was awesome. I was offered so much help from people in that room. So I think also we need to kind of um, you know, when it comes to being progressive and being black, recognize that the progressive part might be the more important part. That you're connecting with progressive people who are like-minded who want to support your vision because not all progressive people look like you.

[15:34] Tonya Pinkins: Agreed.

[15:35] Moikgantsi Kgama: I guess, you know, my contrariness, because I can be very contrary, is that I sort of, you know, look out at things and I feel like the most, you know, big, shiny, shiny thing is probably being controlled by somebody who's manipulating me. Do you know what I'm saying? Like that just the sort of way I see the world. Like, you don't get to be way up there and seen on everything unless somebody even bigger is in control of that. And so I'm always a bit um, I'm always a bit mistrustful of that, which is why you know people are like, oh, you know, are you taking your film to the festivals? I'm like, no. Are you making your film to be a calling card? I'm like, no, I'm making my film because I have something I want to say to my people, and I'm gonna pick up the phone and I'm gonna call people because that's who I I made it for, and I want to take it to them.

Would I like it to get to more of my people? Yes, I want to get it to more of my people, but not at the price of having to alter my message so that it is comfortable enough for somebody who has me on a leash to be able to make a lot of money and then decide, well, actually, if we alter it this way, we can get it to some people that are gonna make us a lot of money, but not gonna go to your people.

[16:51] Tonya Pinkins: So I would challenge you and say, Challenge about fear.

[16:54] Moikgantsi Kgama: Fear about what? You're afraid that someone's manipulating you, you're afraid that the strings are being pulled.

[16:58] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, and I think that um, you know, you could be in your own way in that respect. And I you know, I'll say that because I've probably been in my own way at some point. Talk to me.

[17:07] Moikgantsi Kgama: But I feel like um to me, seize the opportunity first first of all, and then you can you can stop and you can say, Well, I don't want to do this, or I don't want to do that, I'm not comfortable with this. But if you don't seize the opportunity, you don't get the chance to make those decisions. So, to me, my first objective is to seize the opportunity if it's in front of me, right? At least that's how I feel it should be. I don't know if I've always lived this way, but I'm growing to this place where I'm like, if there's an opportunity in front of me, I need to take the opportunity. I know who I am, right? I know what my perspective is and where my limitations are, and I need to say these are my limitations. Now, if they don't work within that opportunity, then I guess I need to move on. But I'm not gonna not try, you know.

[17:46] Tonya Pinkins: Or and to me, a good example is uh is Ava Duvernay, right? I mean, I thought When They See Us was was really a great piece of work. I thought she did an incredible job. Painful as hell. It was painful. It was near some people would say ah, that was just more black porn, black poverty porn, right? Or whatever you want to say about it, but you know, and that you know, maybe she you could say maybe Netflix is is manipulating her. I don't know, but I do know that I'm happy to see her make that work. Now, see, we're talking about something very different. Like for me, I I sort of I always look at who I admire and who's laying the path for me. So I look at Ava, and Ava is the activist artist who is telling the stories that need to be told.

And she's doing it through mainstream channels, and she is doing it through mainstream channels. Yeah, she is an she is uh impresario, an entrepreneur. She understands that that's a gift almost that she has. I think also because she came from publicity, correct? So that's like that's her unique thing, and she is using that thing to tell the untold stories to um you know activate the people who need to be uh to be honored and who need to be heroes who have been uh relegated to the to the closet or to the trash heap. So that's like where I put Ava. Uh Issa is the funny entrepreneur artist who did it on her own and got in and showed that it could be done after they had told her for years and years.

And took the HBO deal. And could no, but see, that's we're still talking about something different. So she came up on her own. They told her for years and years she couldn't do it, and then she got up in there, and now she's opening doors for other people. Lena came in through the workmen's way. She was working on shows and doing things for people, and now she's taking her brand and allowing it to open the doors for other people. All of them did something on their own first, though.

[19:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: Absolutely.

[19:38] Tonya Pinkins: But how is that how is so how is that different from what we're talking about?

[19:43] Moikgantsi Kgama: I haven't done my on my own thing yet.

[19:45] Tonya Pinkins: Of course you have. You've done a ton of things.

[19:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: This is no, but this is my on my own thing. Like I feel like I've spent most of my career building other people's castles. Red Pill is really the first time that it's something that is mine. And I've got to do my thing before I allow someone to say, hey, here's where I see you, and here's where all of your past things say you should go. This is like, you know what? This this is for me a beginning for me.

[20:13] Tonya Pinkins: I think you should, I would like to see you interview those people to figure out how they got there. Because I think everyone gets there with help, and I'm sure they take they took money from people who don't look like them.

[20:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, that's pop to get it done. I've taken money from people who don't look like me. So that's yeah, it isn't even a look like me. I guess it's more uh a soulful kind of thing.

[20:33] Tonya Pinkins: Well, yeah, that's why that's why I'm saying I think, you know, I you know, I'm I I guess I don't know. I don't know what we're talking about. Anyone get into but to me the the thing is find people who are progressive and like-minded.

[20:46] Moikgantsi Kgama: So you look you keep using that word progressive. See, I don't like that word.

[20:48] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, what is progressive mean to you?

[20:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: Um, I think progressive has come to mean for me neoliberalism, um, a kind of elite group of people who look down on people who may not be educated, who may not be privileged with opportunity or wealth.

[21:09] Tonya Pinkins: Um, you mean it in the political sense?

[21:12] Moikgantsi Kgama: I don't mean it like that. Um, yeah, so progressive for me is a negative connotation.

[21:16] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I don't mean that. I'm talking about people who are rooted in humanity.

[21:19] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, well, see, let's talk about people rooted in humanity because progressive to me is not people who understand um the the heart and soul of your work and why you're doing it.

[21:27] Tonya Pinkins: Yes, that's a different thing. People who are on the same page.

[21:29] Moikgantsi Kgama: That's what I see I don't use progressive in that. Like like the folks I met at our house. Those people weren't, I don't think they were neoliberals. A lot of those people were, you know, no. I'm talking about people who are doing the work, who understand the value of it, and who wants who will help you do it too.

[21:42] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, let's call it humanists.

[21:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: Let's humanist with some humans.

[21:46] Tonya Pinkins: That's fine. We can say that.

[21:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, that's what I I'm I'm looking for humanists. I I wanna, I I I, you know, I want to reach my people because I love where I come from and I want to speak to them in a way that you know they can't always afford to go to Broadway. You know, and I don't feel like we should be these diamonds that get taken, and then the people that we come from down in the Colmai can't even afford to experience the shine.

[22:15] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, yeah, that's why I started my park series in the parks, because um, you know, I was showing independent films, and I'm like, you know, a lot of our folks don't even know what the an independent film is. People would be like, You mean B movies? I would say we do an independent film. So seriously, I'll be like, no, that's not what I mean. You know what? I need to bring this to the people directly.

[22:37] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes.

[22:37] Tonya Pinkins: So that's why we started showing films in the parks.

[22:40] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes.

[22:40] Tonya Pinkins: And at the same time, we started showing, we had like a little brownstone cinema. So we would show films in the parks, we would kind of, you know, gather people, they would get to see these films, and then we would say, you know, here's a film we're showing in the cinema in two weeks. Go get your ticket. And we would sell tickets to the cinema.

[22:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: And did that work?

[22:57] Tonya Pinkins: It did work.

[22:57] Moikgantsi Kgama: It didn't like that.

[22:58] Tonya Pinkins: That's how we started. You know, I've kind of honestly grown away from that a little bit because I've been showing bigger brand films because now, you know, as you grow, you get caught up in like the numbers. Yeah. Yeah. But um, that's that's a reality. But I mean, we still show independent films, and that's what my space will be. But it's about making making sure that people are, you know, feel invited to the space. I'm like, who wants to go downtown to Houston Street to see an independent film about your community? Yeah. Yeah. And that I what that's that's this very fine line between um, you know, how do you make a living and support the ability to keep making it, but also get it to people who often can't afford to pay it, but also cultivate the people who can afford to pay it that can sustain it. And I guess that's what I don't know, and it's what I'm interested in.

[23:48] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, you said a mouthful there.

[23:51] Tonya Pinkins: You said a mouthful.

[23:52] Moikgantsi Kgama: But that I think that's why the way I shape my brand um was to do that, right? Because I, you know, I'm I'm really um selling an experience. You know, walking into the Soul Cinema Cafe will be an experience. You walk into a place where you're you see yourself reflected everywhere. Even though the designer I'm working with, Sheila Prevost, she did these awesome bathroom signs that are like, you know, everyone's got an afro and a fist in the air. Okay. I mean, like just really cool imagery and a place where you feel just kind of um embraced, you know, from the type of food to the music to the films to the treatment. You know, so um to me, you know, selling the experience is probably just as important as the film content, you know.

[24:37] Tonya Pinkins: And so that everyone feels welcome and everyone wants to come there. And then, you know, hopefully I can maintain price points that are reasonable for everyone.

[24:44] Moikgantsi Kgama: So when will this new Image Nation be uh rolling out?

[24:49] Tonya Pinkins: Um up until this morning I would have said we ran into a little hiccup. So um the Soul Cinema Cafe, I you know, hopefully we'll be opening next quarter, but we'll see how that goes. Um Image Nation is gonna keep going. We have our series with the Apollo Theater and a race series too, don't you?

[25:09] Moikgantsi Kgama: No, no, I don't have an array series.

[25:11] Tonya Pinkins: We're a founding partner in a ray.

[25:13] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[25:13] Tonya Pinkins: And so um the films that she that um a ray wants to have, Array, for people who don't know, is Ava Duvernay's distribution uh collective that she founded with with film organizations. So we're one of the founding film organizations, us and Urban World in New York City are the New York partners. And so uh when a film um when a film, when she has a film that she wants to have uh shown theatrically, she brings it to us.

[25:38] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[25:39] Tonya Pinkins: And we'll find a space or we'll show it in our space.

[25:41] Moikgantsi Kgama: Okay.

[25:42] Tonya Pinkins: Um they're doing they're doing different things now. That film that just uh that series they just did on black film only. They gotta have us. I think it was great. I loved it. It was, it was awesome. But that only was on Netflix. That didn't come through the through the uh the vehicle. So, you know, when a film goes theatrical, we have the opportunity to show it.

[26:00] Moikgantsi Kgama: Fantastic.

[26:01] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. Fantastic. But um there's cocktails and cinema at the Apollo, we have Image Nation outdoors, which is our outdoor film series. Um, and so that'll take place this summer. Folks can check our website, Image Nation.us. Um, there's the investment opportunity in the Soul Cinema Cafe. You know, I would give my phone number out, but y'all don't want to be too desperate. But you can find Image Nation.us.

[26:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yes, yes, yes, Image Nation.us.

[26:24] Tonya Pinkins: So I have three questions for you. Um, one of my guests said these were questions that uh she asks herself on her journey as a she's a producer. You're a producer also. Um, the three questions are who am I? What is needed, and how can I serve? Would you answer those three questions?

[26:47] Moikgantsi Kgama: I am a diaspora child. That's who I am. What is needed? Um, so much. But then the need that I'm looking at is the need for progressive images of people of color that highlight our humanity. Um, and emphasize solidarity throughout the diaspora in the pan-African world. And how I am serving is by creating Image Nation, by creating the Soul Cinema Cafe, and um being open to learning new ways to get that done.

[27:22] Tonya Pinkins: Thank you, Moikgantsi.

[27:24] Moikgantsi Kgama: Come on, thank you.

[27:25] Tonya Pinkins: I love talking today. We always have such good conversations. We're gonna have an even better one in the fall because we gotta create a whole series around black horror and black politics and a whole voting thing. Is there a horror component to your phone?

[27:36] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, this is a horror film, Red Pill.

[27:39] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, well, you didn't know Red Pill is a horror film?

[27:42] Moikgantsi Kgama: No.

[27:43] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, honey, it's the the log line is um the weekend of the 2020 election, a posse of progressives ride into red country armed with their heart, humor, and naivete. They should have brought heavy artillery.

[27:56] Moikgantsi Kgama: Oh, and it stars uh Reuben Blades, myself, Adeshala Osakalumi, Kathy Erby, Kathy Curtain, Colby Menifee, and uh, you know, so it's this multicultural group of people, you know, going down to canvas up the vote, and uh this other group of people take them out one by one.

[28:19] Tonya Pinkins: Oh that sounds good.

[28:22] Moikgantsi Kgama: Did you did you that seem like Jordan Peel should give you some money?

[28:26] Tonya Pinkins: Seems like his type of film.

[28:27] Moikgantsi Kgama: Yeah, so yes. Well, you know, when I looked at Monkey Paw's mission, their mission was about, you know, giving you the superhero and the superhero rising and giving people that's but that's what it said in their mission. And I was like, yeah, that's one people to get people going, but fear works too.

[28:44] Tonya Pinkins: That's funny.

[28:45] Moikgantsi Kgama: Thank you, Moikgantsi.

[28:46] Tonya Pinkins: Thank you.

[28:46] Moikgantsi Kgama: Thank you for having me.

[28:47] Tonya Pinkins: This is Tonya Pinkins. You can't say that.

[28:56] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales. Edited by Derek Gunther with music by Cat Dail. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream. Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins. And to learn more, visit BPN dot F M forward slash Y C S T. Stay safe.