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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, my name is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:12] Tonya Pinkins: We gotta say what you see.

[0:25] Tonya Pinkins: Today I have two guests, two filmmakers, um, with really important films that could have been made yesterday, but they were not. And so I'm excited to delve into conversation with them.

[0:43] Tonya Pinkins: Please join me in welcoming Christopher Everett and Dennis Leroy Kangalee.

[0:49] Christopher Everett: Thank you.

[0:50] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Lovely to be here with you, Tonya.

[0:53] Christopher Everett: Same here, same here.

[0:54] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Lovely, lovely to be here.

[0:57] Tonya Pinkins: So, you know, I'm making my first film, so I applaud you both for making one. Christopher Everett has a documentary called Wilmington on Fire about a massacre in 1898 in Wilmington, North Carolina, that I honestly had never heard of until um getting prepared to to to meet Christopher today and Dennis Leroy Kangalee.

[1:22] Tonya Pinkins: Am I saying that correctly?

[1:24] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yes, you are, you are.

[1:25] Tonya Pinkins: Or because it could be Kangali.

[1:28] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: You are no, you're saying you hit you're hitting it, you're hitting it. Listen, I've been called a lot of things in my life, Tonya. You could say it a lot worse, boy. Let me tell you.

[1:37] Tonya Pinkins: No, thank you.

[1:38] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Kangali is right.

[1:39] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[1:40] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Which actually means the dispossessed. It's a Senegalese term.

[1:49] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: And wow, my family's from Trinidad.

[1:51] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Okay so in Trinidad, the term had been had sort of uh uh been uh uh merged with some of the Indian patois. So Kangali actually means the wretched, and I told the therapist once if I knew that, you know, 25 years ago, I could have saved myself a lot of therapy and a lot of money.

[2:14] Tonya Pinkins: That explains a lot, Dennis.

[2:16] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: That explains a lot.

[2:19] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: It's all in my name.

[2:20] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: It's all in my name.

[2:22] Tonya Pinkins: So Dennis LeRoy Kangalee's film, written, directed, um, and starring also is called As an Act of Protest. So, Dennis, this telling me that your name is about the dispossessed, wretched, uh the film.

[2:41] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Oh my god, it was painful. It was really it was really painful.

[2:48] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Um beautiful performances. I wanna, I mean, I I know as an artist why you would create it, but I want to know. Now at the end I saw it was made, was it 2001 or 2012? Tell me what.

[3:02] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Uh I was editing the movie actually, uh, literally uh right before 9-11.

[3:12] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[3:12] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Um so we had shot it in January of 2001. After the weird election then that occurred when Bush Sr. had had had had come in again. No one knew what was going on. If you guys remember all that, that that weird time.

[3:30] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So that January, we shot the film. And uh and it took me about a good six, seven months just to edit the movie.

[3:40] Tonya Pinkins: And um, yeah, by editing yourself as well.

[3:44] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yes, yes.

[3:46] Tonya Pinkins: Edit yourself as well, okay.

[3:47] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yes, yes. I had I worked with an editor, but yes.

[3:51] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yes, I was like, I we we were we I was editing uh you know back then it's funny, uh I feel so old, but the first Final Cut Pro system had just come out at the tail end of the 90s, and it was really user-friendly. I'm not very technical at all, uh uh as an artist in in any way.

[4:13] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So um technology to it takes me a very long time uh to sort of adapt to it. I was also more of a theater artist. I was a theater director for many years. My background is is in theater. I went to Juilliard for a couple of years. But making the transition into filmmaking was was relatively easy.

[4:32] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Um, and that version of Final Cut Pro was very simple. Uh that's all I remember about about the editing process then. I mean, very easy. And um we were still using tape, you know. We we we shot it on on mini DV and we would put the output onto VHS.

[4:51] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So we'd watch it back on VHS. That was the only way we could see what we were doing. But interestingly, you bring up Final Cut Pro because um I'm here in Seoul finishing the edit on my film Red Pill, and my editor who can work in every system of preference is Final Cut 7, which is a legacy system that there's no longer any support for.

[5:15] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Um but uh, you know, Zhang Mong Li, I think who cut Parasite still cuts in Final Cut Seven.

[5:23] Christopher Everett: Wow, okay, okay.

[5:25] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Love it because they said it is the closest digital resemblance to uh you know paper and scissors that you can like and things around.

[5:34] Tonya Pinkins: What about your editing process for Wilmington on Fire, Christopher?

[5:38] Christopher Everett: Uh well, it's similar to the same thing. Um, you know, we uh we made Wilmington on Fire. We shot everything um digitally. Um we shot on the DSLRs, Canon 5D and Canon 7D DSLR cameras.

[5:57] Christopher Everett: Um we edited in Final Cut, I think it was Final Cut 10. I think it was Final Cut Studio, the one that everybody hates.

[6:05] Christopher Everett: Yeah, yeah, that's what we that's what we definitely used to cut that. And so yeah, we we had the premiere of it November, you know, 2015. And um, but yeah, we use the DSLR cameras digitally and cut it final cut pro, you know, that the one that you said everyone hates.

[6:26] Christopher Everett: But my the the guy that um edited the film, that's what he always uses. He always uses Final Cut. That's his go-to thing. So he's always whenever Final Cut comes out with something. He can't stand Adobe Premiere for some reason.

[6:40] Christopher Everett: Um so he always uses Final Cut, that's his thing.

[6:42] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yeah, no, we're all Final Cut here.

[6:45] Tonya Pinkins: Now I'm gonna ask you, Chris, you've got you know, historical footage. Wasn't that a very costly thing? Getting all the rights to all that footage.

[6:50] Christopher Everett: Uh well, the footage, you know, we really didn't have historical footage. It was more um historical, you know, photos and and um documents. But the thing is that's still things that only people own, and what was the right situation about that?

[7:08] Christopher Everett: Well, some of the stuff we actually that we got, it was from people's personal collections.

[7:13] Tonya Pinkins: Well, you knew personally that you could get a release from.

[7:16] Christopher Everett: Yeah. So they they a lot of folks just signed it over to us and just willingly let us use it for free or real cheap. Because they they were all waiting for a project like this to come along where they can actually use this stuff and really get this story out.

[7:32] Christopher Everett: But the the state archives in North Carolina, they had access to a lot of stuff. I had a connection with the Kate Fear Museum in Wilmington. They had a lot of stuff. So just my own connections, you know, I was able to get a lot of stuff for very cheap or a lot of stuff on the free.

[7:48] Christopher Everett: Um, certain things kind of cost a lot, like certain newspaper articles.

[7:52] Tonya Pinkins: Yep.

[7:53] Christopher Everett: They probably ran me about 250 a piece for like worldwide rights.

[7:57] Tonya Pinkins: That's not bad.

[7:58] Christopher Everett: Yeah, that's not bad at all.

[7:59] Christopher Everett: At all, at all.

[8:03] Christopher Everett: So luckily with this project, we kind of, you know, we we were lucky with getting a lot of archival stuff on the cheap.

[8:11] Tonya Pinkins: So both of you were uh, you know, uh for people who are listening, I'm gonna let the gentleman say, but I want to say that for you to be really re-releasing these movies right now in this moment, they're right in the zeitgeist.

[8:27] Tonya Pinkins: Um you know, we may know our own history, but Tulsa just coming into American awareness because of Watchmen and um Lovecraft Country.

[8:43] Tonya Pinkins: Right. And um the fact that we do have these digital cameras that everyone carries around all the time. And even though Black Lives Matter has been around for 14 years, this has been the year that it has seen well the most attention that it had ever had, even though that's already beginning to wane.

[9:09] Tonya Pinkins: You know what I'm gonna say, and I'm gonna let you you speak is it what was hard for me about watching As an Act of Protest was that um it was it was like this is I live this every day. I don't know, I don't really want to watch this. I don't want to watch this. This is my life. So painful.

[9:25] Tonya Pinkins: Um beautiful performance by Che Allende. Um as a as a as a creator, uh you know, I was reading some of your your biographical information, and it talks about how you just like to be radical and raw and in your face, like what was your goal for an audience to experience? Because it's it's hard.

[9:52] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: I suppose, I mean, I don't know. I don't really want to watch this. It's and it's always tricky, and I I I um um I always go back to music, um, which I wish I had I'd had the proclivities for, Tonya. I'm not I I dabble in music, I play around in music. I'm not a musician though. I love music, and I've always been very, very, very, very conscientiously inspired uh by American protest music, folk music, and early rap in particular.

[10:32] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Last jazz. In the film.

[10:37] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: And I really wanted to find ways of taking some of what you hear in some of, you know, it's like Nina Simone's "Mississippi Goddamn," right? You listen to that and you think, man, what would that be like if an actor, yeah, but I got what I gotta say about "Mississippi Goddamn," like dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dungeon. And there's a lot of humor in the middle of the year. If you aren't listening to the words, you could think it was a polka or something like that. She makes it very funny. She makes it very, you know, she makes it very humorous. But there's a lot of blood, quite literally, that an artist like her really sheds and shares. I remember when I was making the movie, I thought, well, you know, if Chuck D was gonna make a movie, or if like, you know, the Clash or one of the great punk bands were gonna make a fucking movie, what would they do and how would they do it?

And how would they really try to be aggressive to the audience in a way that was honest and in a way that seemed almost like it was a nightmare. I mean, I often laugh nowadays because, yeah, the movie does seem more relevant almost now than it did when I was making it. I made it in the late, you know, I started in the late 90s, early 2000s under Mayor Giuliani in New York City, and anyone who's old enough to remember him as a mayor will remember that every other week in New York there was an issue about a black man in particular who had been abused or killed by the cops. And it was like this ongoing thing in the 90s. And I remember by the late 90s, I kept thinking, why aren't theater artists or film artists really getting into that? Why are we not showing that? Or why are we not creating our own institutions that are run by white people, and that wasn't of interest to them.

[13:01] Christopher Everett: No, exactly. I mean, I just had a reading at North Carolina Black Rep of a play where someone got killed on stage, and of the three years of developing it, people kept saying, oh, don't put that on stage. But then in 2019, there were a couple of plays at Lincoln Center where black men were killed on stage, and so, oh, now it's de rigueur. They're allowing that to happen. But when you were doing that, that was like, oh no, we don't want to see that. We're not doing that.

[13:28] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Well, yeah. I mean, I remember even when I was at Juilliard, part of the reason I left was because of that reason, obviously. I mean, I didn't want to necessarily be a classical actor. I appreciated what I learned from them in my first year, but by my second year, I realized, well, this is not really for me, and I'm more interested in trying to figure out how Amiri Baraka can be palpable and relevant to my generation, right? And who I was, what, 22, 23, in the mid-90s. So I was already trying to figure that out there. And everyone kept saying, oh, well, you know, that stuff is not relevant anymore. So there was a lot of ideological obstacles when I was in my 20s, which may not exist now. I mean, now it's kind of fashionable to talk about racism.

[14:28] Tonya Pinkins: Well, the presidency is— we're not gonna be talking about that anymore because that's child abuse. Do we have a president? Oh, is that what it is?

[14:45] Tonya Pinkins: I mean, what I want to— I want both of you as black men, because I can never speak for the black male experience. Tell me, I know what it's like for me to watch black men getting killed on screen, and I know that it's happening to black women; they just don't get the press. What is it like for you gentlemen every day to be a black man in America?

[15:07] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: I mean, your film definitely captures it, but, well, you know, Chris and I talk about this all the time. There’s a moral problem, you know. I mean, the idea of just first of all seeing images of violence against black bodies in general is very disconcerting. Now, America, absolutely, it's like lynching postcards. That's what it is, basically. Literally, because it is a fetish. They love it. They love it. They love it. It's a fetish. Hollywood adores it. I'm sorry. Without the Nazis or lynchings, Hollywood would be nothing. That I always say this. They love two things: World War II, Adolf Hitler, anything about that, and black men, particularly in the deep down south, in the plantation getting whipped or lynched.

Or of course the black woman getting raped by the white, you know, slave master. Hollywood has a fetish for that. And these were some of the issues, of course, that went into me wanting to make a film about this, about writing roles for black men, again, in particular, that where we could be cerebral and emotional and conscious of what's going on and be like how I am in my everyday life. I mean, Chris and I have wonderful conversations, and I always say to Chris, Chris, all I want to do is write scripts that are like the way we talk at two o'clock in the morning. Share that. I want to share that with the world, you know. And so that's where it becomes this terribly moralistic problem. I do not like, I mean, you can only see so many images of black men getting, you know, being in a chokehold, getting shot, having a cop put his knee on your back, right? All the images we constantly see, and although people claim that the more you see it, the more it will help change the world, I disagree with that.

[17:30] Tonya Pinkins: Were you in North Carolina? What do you say?

[17:34] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So, what is it for you guys down there? New York, we are kind of the— we're the bad people of America. You're in the heart of America.

[17:46] Christopher Everett: Well, yeah, you know, down here, you know, I was born and raised in the South. You know what I'm saying? Here in North Carolina, especially raised in a small country rural town called Lorimberg in North Carolina. So, you know, I saw a lot, a lot of racism growing up. I mean, my first experience was I was just jogging in my neighborhood, you know, because I was an athlete.

[18:07] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Chris was an athlete, yeah.

[18:09] Christopher Everett: Yeah, so you know, I was, you know, trying to work hard and go jogging. And that's my first lesson of not jogging in your own neighborhood. Police officers—

[18:21] Tonya Pinkins: What happened? Tell us.

[18:23] Christopher Everett: Police officers pretty much came out of nowhere and held me up for hours. Pretty much thought that I was someone that was doing illegal activities, selling drugs and all running from because I was running. But I had basketball shorts on, you know, sweating, because I've already ran like two, two or three miles, you know. So when, you know, I would see these type of things happen as I got older, it will always make me, you know, think about, you know, growing up. And it goes back to the whole thing of what Malcolm X used to say, you know, you're not down south. You know, if you're under the Canadian border, you're down south. So whether it's New York, North Carolina, the largest city or the biggest or the smallest city, it's all the same. It was being, especially being a black man in America. And so I think that's why I connected.

[19:10] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yeah, same, same, yeah.

[19:11] Christopher Everett: Yeah, just black people in general.

[19:13] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Okay, men or women.

[19:15] Christopher Everett: And so that's why I try to do, you know, that type of work as well in regards to my films. And with "Wilmington on Fire," you know, I would always hear about Rosewood when that film came out by John Singleton. And, you know, you hear about Tulsa, but it was something that happened similar right here in my home state of North Carolina that was very significant. And so I said, you know what? I was tired of complaining about Hollywood not making these type of stories or films. So I said, what the hell? I'm gonna try it and I'm gonna do it. And so I've just been having that same spirit ever since of not waiting on Hollywood. And that's why I connected with Dennis, and that's why we get along and still work on certain things. And we're working on a new project right now together.

[19:58] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yeah.

[19:59] Christopher Everett: Is that— go ahead, Dennis, go ahead and explain.

[20:02] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: It's called "A Saintly Madness." And I guess, Tonya, in a way, it's almost like a spiritual sequel to "As an Act of Protest." And in revisiting some of these issues, again, now 20 years later, you know, and in my life and in the world, and we're basically trying to do a little ensemble drama that sort of deals with some of the internal conflicts of people on the left and how they want to handle now aspects of revolutionary violence, protest, racism. And it's quite a hell of a project. We're trying to— we're shooting in January, and we spent the entire summer in the midst of the George Floyd horror writing the script. And it was not something I wanted to do. We originally, last year, Chris and I were working on a comedy, believe it or not. We were, seriously. It was a satire, it was a good one, but it was a satire, so energetically, I was in a different place.

[21:17] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: COVID hit, everything happened, George Floyd, blah, blah, blah. Everyone pretended like racism is something new. So of course, Chris and I always get caught in that, you know, because anytime a black man gets killed, they either want to screen my movie or Chris's movie, which is terrible. That is a terrible, terrible thing. But this is what America does. I've been saying the same thing for 25 years, and no one will listen. And uh so Chris and I said, well, why don't we make a new film now and really express some of these issues and some of the problems that we both have with the hypocrisy of people on the left. Because that's really my thing.

[22:00] Tonya Pinkins: Tell me some of the hypocrisy you think.

[22:05] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: In particular, um, I mean, one of the things that get me is that uh and Chris and I again talk about this all the time, um, I'm not a firm believer in begging or asking or complaining the system as we know it to change. I don't think that's gonna happen. I'm firm Malcolm X believer when it comes to that. I think you're you've lost your mind. If if you actually really believe that America really cares or wants to be or will change, you're you're you're living in La La land. Now, that doesn't mean that things can't change, but if there's a Confederate statue, say, in front of my house, okay, Tanya, there's so many conf this country is nothing but is one Confederacy. I can't spend all of my time worried about that one statue.

What I should be worried about, I think, now as an artist, is how you feel, how Chris feels, how we feel about each other, maybe as black people, and start expressing that. And I also have a lot of real big beef with black cops who seem to now, more than ever, if you notice, are involved in a lot of weird stuff lately. And there's a lot of interesting things that I don't know what weird stuff they're talking about. Everyone knows Derek Shavian, the white guy, the main white guy. I forget the name of the other white guy. Um, but the other two cops, one was Asian and one was black. Now, I said to Chris a while ago, I said, you see, now that would be dangerous. If we actually explored that, because Tanya, what scares me are not white racists.

It's the black people who are colonized who work against us. Those people scare me. And they've been my biggest problem in my entire in my life, in the arts, in the art world, it's not white people who've who've thrown me out of meetings or who won't give me grants. I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm 44. I've never gotten any help from anybody in New York, right? It's always been black people who've been who've worked hard against me, people of color who don't want to appear, quote unquote, too angry. I mean, you know what I'm talking about. So it's all of that. And I and I think that that's absolutely, I mean, that's as some kind of friends finant nightmare. And I really do believe that we need to kind of get into that.

[24:49] Christopher Everett: And but I got I'm gonna I'm gonna push I'm gonna push against you because there's a way in which I agree with you. I I think that there's a way in which I feel like the only reason we go to white people is because they have these keys to gates and they have all the resources. But as Christopher Everett's film points out, we have done it ourselves again and again and again. I mean, it's when emancipation ended, there were four million uh black people who were released into a capitalist economy with zero capital, and we rose to be some of the most successful people in the world in every industry.

[25:32] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Now, from there is, yeah, and every time we do, they come in and destroy it. Chris, I want you to speak to that.

[25:40] Christopher Everett: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Um, and and that's one of the reasons why I wanted to do the film is to really, because I didn't realize until I got older about a lot of those accomplishments, especially coming out of slavery, and how we we turned around our whole educational achievement as well, um, coming out of slavery and starting businesses and starting, you know, black business districts and becoming you know industry leaders as well and doing our thing. But the the downside of that is that the the government never really protected to protect us, you know. You know, we're paying taxes and doing all this stuff, but we never got the equal protection under the law. And I've always the law has never protected our business, our home, right?

Our property. Right. And, you know, and that goes back to um what we talk about in Wilmington on Fire is really the case for reparations, you know, because of that. And I know the film has been mentioned even last summer during the whole yeah, during the whole congressional hearing on representation. The only film mentioned.

[26:44] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yeah, it's the only film.

[26:45] Christopher Everett: Willington fire. So a lot of people have been really using the film to help push for the case of reparations because you know it really shows of that whole the the 1890s, the whole period of racial terror, you know, after racial terror is ongoing. Okay, racial terror is ongoing, it has never ended. What I'm asking you all is we we have right now. Why would we even think that they would ever allow us to have without bombing us and destroying us again? History has shown us that's what they do again and again and again. So with that as it's a kind of like uh like Paul Mooney always says it's like it's like Stockholm syndrome. I mean, we love our oppressors, we keep asking them hello, hello, will you stop? Will you give me? Will you stop? We have to stop that. I don't, I'm I'm not one of those people who believe in that. I believe in doing for self. I believe in self-defense.

[27:42] Tonya Pinkins: You're not hearing my question.

[27:44] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: You're not hearing my question. My question is I agree with you. So we've got these two sides. We have done for ourselves again and again and again. And every time we do, they destroy it.

[28:00] Christopher Everett: Yeah.

[28:01] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So with that as the model, the factual historical model, what other options are there?

[28:08] Christopher Everett: Well, I think the the options really clearly is you know, learn from history. Yeah, they destroyed it, but you know, we made some mistakes as well. And I think now we really need to use our votes and also still pull our money together. You know, we can't just say, you know what, exactly. Well, let's let's let's don't do nothing. You know, we have to try as a people. Um, there's a lot of things we can be doing better, um, supporting one another. Um, one, starting more businesses, investing in each other, um, you know, start going, you know, still take our education more serious, um, and doing things like that, building businesses, doing what I'm doing. Like I'm just stripping in Dennis's.

[28:51] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: No one took a chance on it.

[28:52] Christopher Everett: Exactly. So just doing small things like that. You got one sister right now, she has Quela TV, black streaming service.

[28:59] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Exactly.

[28:59] Christopher Everett: We can support that, you know. So we're just doing small things, yeah. You know, like that of just us doing that without always trying, exactly, just being together and stuff like that. Simple stuff, exactly.

[29:10] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Yeah, well, I guess I guess I don't see it as that simple. I mean, we had this beautiful day when the NBA said we're striking. And I heard someone saying somewhere this past week, they said, if all the ball players just said we're done, they can't replace them, they can't go out and hire a new team. Now, I'm sure there are a lot of white people be like, great, now we can go back to it just being an all white league and we can just watch ourselves play. But I think if the black players all started their own league and just played, I I know where the money would be going, I know where the viewers would be going. And yet, these men with great wealth and power and privilege went on bad. And that's the problem.

[29:54] Christopher Everett: The thing is that, yeah, it's I don't and and honestly, if if white people look at it and say, hey, you know, we get to go back to watching white folks play. Honestly, no one really wants to see that.

[30:05] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: So you know why?

[30:06] Christopher Everett: Yeah, exactly. No one, they don't even want to see that. So, but I agree with you that we don't realize the power that we have. You know what I'm saying? And and to me, our people are the only people that's never really benefited off of our talents, whether it's our athletic talent, our music talent. We've seen it years in the music industry, and also now in the film industry as well. You know, we've never really been able to capitalize fully off of our talents and and and innovations and stuff like that. And I think that we have to have the confidence.

[30:34] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: I think it's a lack of confidence. A lot of times our people, we aren't confident in ourselves and the ability to do what we need to do.

[30:41] Tonya Pinkins: Um, you know, well, both of you are very confident, so I'm not gonna accept that. I don't think confidence. I know plenty of confident black people.

[30:50] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: And um, I think there needs to be more.

[30:51] Christopher Everett: There's confident black people.

[30:53] Dennis Leroy Kangalee: Now they not may not be the ones that the gatekeepers let's know that.

[30:57] Christopher Everett: Exactly, China, right? But I think that I think that um, you know, and that's why I just really and the thing is, you know, that's why I really embraced you know being independent, and I think more independent artists need to really embrace that and make that cool again to be an independent artist, man. Embrace that, you know, and really take that in and own to it, you know, and own it, you know, that I'm an independent artist, I don't really need the system. Yeah, I can collaborate with the system whenever it makes sense. Of course, of course, but at the end of the day, we can do our own thing and do it well.

[31:31] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I agree, and both of you are doing that.

[31:39] Tonya Pinkins: This is Tonya Pinkins, and that was part one of my conversation with Joanne Zipple, a zip creator.