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[0:17] Tonya Pinkins: Hi. Today is September 12th at 4 a.m. for me in Seoul. And it is September 11th in New York, where Brittany Bigelow is recording. And it is 9 a.m. in Copenhagen, where my guest this morning, Camelia Elias, is. Isn't technology amazing? It connects the world. Wow. We are, oops, there goes my alarm to let me know that it was time to do this. So in June, I think it was, I signed up for a class called Wealth with Carolyn Elliott. And as part of that class, we were asked to, for one year, to pull a tarot card from Alistair Crowley's Thoth Tarot. And what surprised me about being a part of this wealth community is that it was an introduction to areas of spirituality, magic that just I never encountered in my over 50 years on the planet.

And pulling the tarot and reading about the tarot, it just doesn't have any meaning to me. My only experience with tarot was, you know, girlfriends at parties. We play with the tarot. But what I will say is, as a child, probably in like grammar school, that's like first to eighth grade, I read about something called an augury. And it's never left me. And what I understood an augury to mean was that if you could know everything about one thing, because of the connection of all things in the universe, you could know something about everything else in the universe. And so, in my trying to understand these cards that I've been pulling every day, um, I began, uh, I think Carolyn actually mentioned that Camelia Elias, is that correct? Camelia, am I saying the right thing?

[2:26] Camelia Elias: Yes.

[2:29] Tonya Pinkins: So let welcome Camelia Elias, um, who is you know my guest today. And I want to say that she's written a dozen books, more than a dozen books, um, about literature, about logic, about thinking. She's a painter, she's a creative, she's a diviner. And in preparing to um to have this conversation with her, I have had a number of readings with her. One of my favorites is her haiku readings. Poetry always goes over my head, but I love the elegance and beauty of her haikus. And it's often after the fact that I go back and go, oh my God, that haiku completely matched what was going on in the moment. Um, so welcome, Camelia. I want to know about your early life in Romania, what allows you to have this connection with, to me, if you're reading cards, it's an augury and you're connecting with something beyond this moment. So please tell me how you come to this life and this wisdom.

[3:39] Camelia Elias: Well, uh first of all thank you so much for the invite you know it's like oh well I'm doing what today speaking of the world you know the world is small uh and yes uh thank you technology and thank you for having me um well you know uh uh it I am what you would call perhaps uh an eclectic in spite of um that um um one thing you know that you just that you just introduced here through the uh through the idea of the augury you know if you get to know one thing and if you know that one thing well then you it's likely that you will know everything else so you know um what can I say although I am uh I'm doing a lot of different things and I've had several careers over my also over 50 years on this planet um what I'm always aiming for is actually um to come closer to what some romantics anyway would would describe as the thing itself you know or if you go the Buddhist context you know you have you have a whole lot of notions there about the void or the emptiness of all things and nothingness you know nothing has substance so so you know so you want to know that one thing only so that you realize that you that you are just flying through nothing um so how do you get to that point so I think maybe in some um canonical literature of this type, you know, the spiritual, um, people say that um you can you can you can experience uh walking different paths, you know, and then and then trying different uh creative approaches to you know painting, to reading, to yeah, you mentioned logic, you know, and I'm I I like that.

I like math, you know, for instance, in another life, I was definitely a mathematician, yeah. So um, and I with this one of the careers that I didn't have uh that I didn't have the opportunity to develop, but it's still somewhere at the back of my uh of my head, you know. Um but what I'm trying to say is that you know, although you do so many things, at the end of the day, what you want to arrive at is exactly that clarity, you know, about um that's connected to seeing things as they are, you know, um, seeing the thing itself, um, meaning you're not really interested in um what others say, dictations, culture, you know, uh um being impressionable, you know.

[6:21] Camelia Elias: So for instance, in my in my divination practice, you know, a lot of people or a lot a lot of my clients actually expect me to embody the impressionable, you know. So, what's the impression? You know, do you receive any impressions? You know, what's the psychic, you know? And I always want to laugh, you know, because the first thing that I do is like I I always tell people, well, listen, you know, I'm actually looking at uh a visual language, I'm looking at uh uh um a set of cards, you know, the cardboard, you know, some images, cartoonish in most cases, you know, uh sometimes very bad art, mind you also at the tarot world is full of that. Um so you know, so uh and and what I say to people is that I'm not reading these cards, you know, because I'm receiving impressions, you know.

I'm reading them because there is an actual um, there is an actual uh set of rules, you know. So you read form and you read color and you you know what the dot is and what the line is, and and you know, you try and connect those two. So, you know, so um the the reason why I'm bringing this in is because when we talk about canonical literature of the spiritual kind, you know, what they all talk about is exactly this, you know. In fact, something that the logicians also talk about, you know, how you go from A to B. How do we cover that distance? Do we even have any sense of of what's there between these two points, you know, and is the line that we talk about also straight or is it crooked? Or I mean, you know, we have all sorts of uh uh geometries that that already can form in our heads uh at the perceptual level.

[6:58] Camelia Elias: So, you know, so given this this um um premise, you know, the the canonical literatures, again, the third time I'm mentioning this. So what they talk about is that you you somehow, you know, if we want to believe the male sages, yeah, some of them are okay. Uh they say you have to have some propensity for this, you know. And I've always been interested in this, because what the hell does that mean, you know, that you that you have propensity for receiving auguries, for being interested in how we get to decode a text, you know, or and it doesn't matter whether it's a visual text or whether it's a piece of poetry or literature or or mass, you know, for for that for that sake. How do we how do we connect things now?

Already, you know, neuroscience is full of uh hypotheses and and and theories about how we are invested in recognizing patterns, you know. I mean, I'm sure and I read that when you were growing up in Romania that it was kind of in your community, people would read just a deck of playing cards or they would read the coffee grinds.

[9:08] Camelia Elias: Like I just finished uh uh watching a several documentaries about the Kogi people. Have you ever heard of them?

[9:16] Tonya Pinkins: No.

[9:16] Camelia Elias: They're uh uh one of the the only remaining Colombian tribes, I mean pre-Columbian tribes that survived after the Aztecs that live in the high mountains of the Sierra Madre, and part of their culture is that they take uh several children from the time they're born and they raise them in a cave in the darkness for nine years and then must meditate on the mother, which is the earth, and they only learn about what's outside the cave through storytelling, but they spend their life in meditation on the mother, and you know, and then they come out at nine years old and they communicate with the mother and tell them how to plant, uh, where to move, you know, how to stay in touch with the way the world was made.

And I was thinking about how you know DMT is a part of our bodies, and that the the filmmaker was imagining that they don't have any experience of anything outside, but we know that DMT allows you to access other worlds and other dimensions, so they are probably traveling in all kinds of places in that nine years that they're there that allows them to connect to other things. Did that happen for you that as a child you just had a natural connection to other worlds?

[10:43] Camelia Elias: Well, I don't know. Maybe I could say that I was fortunate to just have uh my I uh mainly grew up with with my mother and uh I have an uh younger sister. My father died when I was when I was eight, so that was early on, and my mother was not interested in getting married or having any other relationship. You know, she was that type who says, Oh, every to her, everybody was too stupid, you know. So uh interesting, so you know. Um so I don't want to say that I was fortunate enough or how maybe I missed a lot on the other side. I have I there is no way to tell. Um, but I think that if I have to activate some of the early memory, you know, then I would say that we just did stuff, you know, like we just did things.

So although she herself give me a one. You know, so so I think that if if I appreciate something in my upbringing, it was actually this, and it was a lesson that she insisted on. So I know I although we did stuff, we also talked about things, but what we what we talked about mainly was how that about the significance of not assuming anything about anybody, about the future, about the past, even you know, like how shitty or how what could the the what ifs and what that could also have been like this, and like I mean, uh, we were not invested in that as a household of three women, yeah.

[12:09] Camelia Elias: So we just did stuff, and then uh what came from her in the form of wisdom, because now in my in my own um um old age, almost I'm an old hag, I say I like to say um, I think about it, and at the time I didn't obviously, you know, but but the but it was formulated in these many words. Don't assume anything. So okay, so that was the thing, like okay. So if we don't assume anything, so we don't invent stories about others and what they are like and whether they like me or not. I mean, that sort of stuff, right? I mean, identity, like I mean, I want to laugh every day on people are so invested in identity, and I don't know. I know identity means a lot of things to many people. Um, but with this background, you know, to me it's like, well, yeah, but it doesn't that mean that you that that you presuppose something, and as soon as you do that, you are then in danger of making the wrong assumptions.

We can all make a hundred of assumptions, and they all can turn out to be wrong, you know. So that was um my logician mother's um uh advice, you know, that don't go there, you know. So so what is left? So that is the thing. So if we don't assume anything about anybody, about ourselves, our future events, you know, nothing, yeah. So we are there with the day with the hardcore nothingness, yeah. Uh then what is left? And what was left was exactly that to simply just go through the magical life and notice how things would unfold nature, you know, we we appreciated that. So we we like the the wind, you know, there's some some of the winds back in in Romania, they were not it was not funny. So you know, so mother would go on a cursing, uh, you know, um, and then I don't know, like we we did with some small magic, or let's let's stop this wind, you know.

[13:59] Camelia Elias: She likes folk magic, no. So we just did that sort of thing, and then that was the life, you know. It's like so we wouldn't go around and think things. So if there was the thinking, it was always connected to making an observation about the way in which we would see nature unfold, whether in the nice and kind way, or whether in the sublime or catastrophic way, or you know, um, how is the political situation? So we were always kind of like just merely observing, you know, it's like what's happening here. So what so you know it's it's it was perhaps another way of um getting close to the thing itself, you know, like how how is this thing, you know? What is this thing?

[14:44] Camelia Elias: Yeah, so now from you saying that you grew up in this kind of interact with my world in this moment, you then you know have spent a great part of your life going into your doctorate in literature, going into people making stories about things. So how do you go from this observational experience to completely stories, and mostly stories by old white men, you know, whatever you there.

[15:13] Camelia Elias: Well, you know, yes, uh, it's a good question, but I tell you um why I got pulled into that work, it's simply because it's it's fun. I mean, it's fun to look at ourselves, as some you know, speaking of literature, literary critics who say, you know, the relational self, you know, so we have a sense of our identity, who we are, what kind of degrees we get, and mind you, when I finish when I got one doctorate, that wasn't enough. I thought, is there something higher than this over here in Denmark? And then somebody's and then you know, the system, yeah, yeah, there is something higher. Okay, okay. I also want that. So I went ahead and I got my second doctorate, and then, but you know, it was never part of like, oh, I have to show them, or like who the hell are these others that I have to show anything, you know, including and that includes myself, yeah.

My own sense of self. I did I did it all of I did all of this for fun, and I really mean that fun in the sense that it's in stories, you know, it's fun to see how people think of themselves conceptually, and then how that conception of themselves matches what they actually do.

[16:24] Camelia Elias: And I think that what uh was I'm gonna say something very mean, you know. So especially when people fail, then I get the kick out of it, and I say, Man, I mean, conceptually, there is this image, and it's like, whoa. And then I see you doing, as it were, all the wrong things, at least from my vantage point. Yeah. So I think I oh, okay. So then I'm interested in uh what enables that mismatch, you know, where the disconnect is, and then as soon as you get into that, then you then you then you ride on a detective uh train, you know, and then say, man, so my the detective gene. If you if there is such a thing, you know, gets activated, and then and then I just want to know like who done it, you know, what's up with this, what's up with this um this whole disconnect, yeah.

[17:14] Tonya Pinkins: So that sounds like psychology. Did you not ever want to go into psychology? Because that surely sounds like a psychological, you know, thing.

[17:21] Camelia Elias: Yeah, now that you mention it, you know, for a number of years, I was actually the editor in chief of the international journal of psychology and the arts, you know, and I was also uh director of the um of the uh the Psy Art Foundation, you know, so it's all about psychology the cross between psychology and the arts. So yeah, so you know, so and I and I did get to to to study enough so that I one could actually have some like Lacanian because that was Freud, you know. I yeah, but I like Lacan better, you know, the the psychoanalyst uh who was a big theorist on on all things desire, yeah. Language, the relationship between language and desire. So, you know, so anybody out there that they would need a Lacanian therapist, they are welcome to come to me.

I'll have some very nasty things to say. Um, so yeah, so indeed, you know, but that's the thing. So literature really it's all about that. It's all about the psychology of our the um identifying, if you like, the the mechanisms uh for identification with desired persona or uh desired identities, you know. I mean, that's what the what go makes the world go round, you know.

[18:35] Camelia Elias: It's like, oh, yesterday I was uh a poor girl from Romania, and today I have I hold two doctorates and I I rule the world. That sort of thing, yeah. So um, so it's fun, it's fascinating to me to to see how we how we go through some of these developments of our own self while at the same time, at least personally, while at the same time noticing also uh what kind of stories I create, how do I act as a protagonist in those stories? So, you know, so um and I think that the reason why I'm having fun with that, it's because ultimately, you know, I I went totally zen at some point, I think in 1984, actually, it was in December. Um, and I was I was uh speaking of men, you know. Actually, I have I'm very good friends with men, but some were not good friends.

So so you know, I lived in this community full of uh religious people, um, the Jews at some point they were in majority, and then Germans also, and the Hungarians and the Romanians were kind of like fourth in the in the so I grew up with this multicultural Serbs also, my multicultural society, and I and I and I would visit just about everything.

[19:45] Camelia Elias: So once I I was sitting in a Sanhedrin, you know, like literally 13 men in black, you know, and then I made some so-called unfortunate statements against marriage, right? Against the venerable institution, and then they called me up, and then I said, You can't say that speaking, you can't say that. And then you know what I say in uh sometimes I say, so when was your moment of enlightenment? Let's go with the Buddhist context, right? And then I said, actually, actually, I have it, I know exactly where. So I was sitting there and then looking at these people, men, all men in black, literally, in suits, because you know, this was the so somber and very serious Sanhedrin. It was a committee, you know, of people.

Um, and then I was there, a small girl of 16, you know, and then I had to defend my views against marriage, right? And I and I could just see the imbalance, right? And they were very serious going against me. And then I and then I and then I just had this moment of recognizing the bullshit, and I could just hear like, and I thought, man, you are so full of shit. Every single one of you. It's like, can you please hear yourselves.

[21:02] Camelia Elias: So I I actually left that that group, you know. You know, I I was one girl against these men, yeah. And I with that, and I said, I hope you can hear yourselves. I mean, you are here, you know, to represent a so-called institution of wisdom and all that. But I but you are just you talk nonsense. It's like horrible, the kind of nonsense. And then, of course, I already had some arguments because I didn't have a problem producing those. Not that they were interested in in hearing me out. They called me out under that pretext that yes, we want to hear you out. Okay, so I gave them a piece of my mind. But then at the same time, I also saw they were neither listening nor were they seeing me in any way.

And then when they had to say something, it was all just one new huge, you know. So I and then I I just got hit by some kind of lightning, you know, and I thought, wow, whoa, wait, what is this nonsense? What is this shit? What is what am I what story is this that I am in? And that was my exit, you know, from from the whole community. And then I went, I went totally zen since then. So you know, so so I'm having an easy an easier time because uh because I I recognized in that moment exactly what we were doing to one another, you know. So um, and and that was that, you know.

[22:21] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. So I have a question for the detective in you because this is coming up all over the world right now, um, with the way technology is you know, radicalizing people. What do you think the disconnect is between this sort of white identity superiority? What is the disconnect between their story and the reality of the world they're creating?

[22:45] Camelia Elias: Yes, but maybe you could turn it around and say that there is no reality, it's all just a story. But of course, the story, because you know, there are statements of self empowerment. Uh, and if it's like you know, in literary and media studies, we talk about uh how an icon is being created, and the mechanism for it is is actually very, very basic. Um, I mean, just think of it. So I don't go into politics as such, so let's pick another, just think of it, think of Marilyn Monroe, you know, that's the sex symbol. Let's take her now a poem and she's been dead a while, so you know we're not gonna offend anybody by bringing her into the picture. But you know, if you think about it, I mean, obviously, the woman had her own life and all that, but why why did she become an icon? And you realize it's like this old news, it's an old hat, you know, but it's all because of a very basic mechanism of repeating an image. Yeah, repeating an image.

[23:45] Camelia Elias: So so one uh gains power, if you ask me. I mean, if I have to, I would have to think a little more about this, so maybe I'm talking nonsense. But let's just say off the top of my head, you know, uh of my head, you know, if I have to launch into some uh idea, I would say that uh you gain power if you have the ability to have a strong resolve to repeat a particular image at identity level about who you are and what you do, yeah. So when you talk about the whites and exhibiting superiority and all that, I would say that where the whites have been successful is exactly in this, you know, and that goes also for the for men's superiority over women, yeah. Uh it's the same mechanism that's marketing.

[24:34] Tonya Pinkins: We think it's marketing, but do you think exactly absolutely?

[24:38] Camelia Elias: So one repeats, um, and you can verbalize it, you can have uh images like real images, photography, you know. I mean, of anything, yeah. Um, graphics relate to sigil. Does that have anything to do with sigils?

[24:55] Camelia Elias: Oh, you know, there are a lot of uh magicians there. So if you especially the branch of in in magic, you know, that's associated with this label chaos magic, magic, chaos, magic. So they would tell you that uh this is a form of uh hyper sigilizing, you know, where you you craft uh an image again, you use graphics for that. Um, and that can be quite figurative, like you can have a real though. I mean, depict uh um the face of a person, yeah, as as you see them as you perceive them, perceive them, um, or else you can have something that's more abstract, yeah. But the the same idea is in place that you just fixate on it, so there has to be a um um a process of fixating on the thing, which is actually um the same as you fixate on the thing and then you make sure you send it forth or send it uh around and you propagate. So there is that's these two things you propagate, you fixate, and then you propagate. So it it's all about that.

[25:58] Camelia Elias: So it's very, very similar. I mean, the chaos magicians, of course, they would say that what the big um iconic yeah uh uh corporates, you know, like the McDonald's. I mean, they're sigil, you know. I mean, banks, you know, banks also it's very interesting to observe what banks, um, what logos banks use, you know. So there is always something that's right in your face, strong statement, and there is no ambiguity, there is no impression here like oh I'm receiving some kind of a message no no no so so um it's almost as if it starts with having a strong vision of what you want um and then uh you fixate on that and then you make sure you repeat um in few words because otherwise it gets too much and people can't uh you know our attention span I mean the fact that we don't have any is not a new thing it goes way back um so you you have to keep it simple yeah so you you fixate on that image you verbalize yeah what the intent behind it uh is what the vision is what the vision is and then you make sure you act in such a ways that will um embody that vision yeah so we also operate with some sense of embodiment.

[26:22] Tonya Pinkins: This is Tonya Pinkins. That was part one of my conversation with Camelia Elias, uh PhD, author, educator, diviner. Come back for part two.