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[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back to part two of my conversation with Camelia Elias.

[0:28] Camelia Elias: What does embodiment mean? Well, I mean, embodiment, it simply means that to give an example, in the spiritual world, you know, one of the what's rising on the rise now, it's the figure of the witch, right? So say, okay, so how do we, you know, the witch? We already have some, uh, the witch has always had, you know, a bad reputation, evil woman and all that. So now in all forms of, uh, reprisals, you know, you find, um, attempts to re-embody the concept, you know, in different ways. So which, and that simply means that you begin to gesture the word in a particular form. So when you use your hands, like literally, okay. I'm not suggesting why don't you go out and sweep the floor, you know, so we remind people of the witch's relation to the broom, or, you know, write it if you can also, that would be more spectacular.

Um, so embodiment simply just means that you take a conceptual image and then you act upon it, uh, by, um, uh, getting your body across, you know, putting your body into it. And it's very, very basic again, it's like it's gestures. Yeah, I mean, in the school of rhetorics, you know, that you would think that the school of rhetoric is about words and persuasion and all that. Like, fuck that. You know, there is no such thing, it's all about how you gesture, how you bring your body into that image that you craft. So there is always some conscious, um, conscious doing behind, uh, uh, behind, uh, uh, all of these acts. So it's not, it's not, um, non-calculated. So this is all pretty calculated, yeah. Um, so that I don't know if that answered what's embodiment, yeah.

[2:26] Camelia Elias: Now you've used the word magic many times, and as I said, this idea of magic is something that's new in my life. I have always thought of manifestation, kind of from the new thought ancient wisdom thing. But I've been really fascinated to learn about magic. What is magic to you?

[2:50] Camelia Elias: Well, one of the classical definitions of magic is simply that magic is, uh, symbolic action with intent, you know. So you engage in symbolic acts, you know. I mean, but isn't that I love you? I'm gonna give you some flowers. Is that an act of magic? Yeah, for instance, yeah, that's it. I mean, if you think about it, um, that's stuff that you do as soon as you get up in the morning, and you think, oh, what a dreadful day. I have to show up at work, you know. So, yeah, so how are you going to psych yourself up to something better? You know, so then you start thinking, okay, first you take a shower, and then maybe you use some nice perfume, uh, put on the better dress that you don't even want to bother, but then you make a, you make a, uh, symbol, you know, turn it into symbolic action.

Say this better dress that I don't even feel like putting on today, you know, or this perfume that you know, I think I should maybe go and eat something with the pigs. That's how I feel, right? Um, so what you do is like when you turn it around, right? So you say I have to show up at work and I have to be persuasive, and I have to be pretty, and I have to be because you know, it helps if you are, if you are more beautiful or whatever, you know. Yeah, then success kind of tends to follow. So, you know, so you engage in all these acts, and somebody say, What are you for real? And you'd have to say, No, I hope not. None of this shit is for real, yeah. Um, so you know, so magic is very much aligned with these small acts that actually all of us we engage with because we have an agenda.

You have to go to work, and you maybe you have to meet with the 13 men in black, and you have to tell them something about marriage that they don't want to hear. So, how are you gonna do that? So, you know, so what you know what lipstick are you gonna put on? You know, are you going to have some black and, uh, nail polish also, you know? Or are you going to do what kind of a, an image are you going to craft for yourself that you think will aid you in whatever agenda you have? So, you know, it's the same thing, like you are in love, you don't show up on the doorstep to your lover with a cabbage. Uh, you come with a bunch of roses, right? Because they smell nice. I mean, um, this is it, right? So, so it's this is all symbolic action.

[5:17] Camelia Elias: Now, some would say, okay, so is there anything out there that is not symbolic action with intent? And you know, my zensel would say, No, relax, you know, there is no such thing. Everything is invested with symbolism. Because everything is already part of the circulation of what we, what we, what we call the icon, you know. So how do we get a name in the, you know? It's like, can we read can you please repeat my name again? So the world can, you know, so that I can like it. Thank you, yes. You know, there you have it. I have to say 10 times every morning. So before you know it, you know, before you know it, um, you are something, you know, that's how power comes to you. Now, where all of this doesn't work, and you know, you can also talk about the inverse of the situation, and some say, Well, that didn't work.

I showed up on the steps on the doorsteps of my lover, and she kicked me out, and I had so many roses. Well, I would have to say turn it around and say, Okay, I have an answer. You know why it doesn't work? It's because you didn't insist long enough.

[6:29] Camelia Elias: So if anybody now here is a piece of magic for free. If anybody wants to know why sometimes their own symbolic actions with intent, yeah, you have to be conscious of what you're doing, because otherwise, you know, I mean, we can all just fly through life in a blissful way, uh, ignorantly blissful. Um, you have to have, uh, a strong resolve and you have to be resolute. Uh, you need stamina and resilience. So when people fail in their shit, it's because they don't insist long enough. Now, some is gonna, some people are gonna chastise me for saying this. No, I'm I'm with you on that. Now, so one of the things I found in my life that I've learned in my whatever years I've been here is that anything I've really wanted, I could get.

And that made me a little afraid of acting in that way. Because, you know, I started thinking, well, maybe I needed to just be happy with what came my way because I know I can get what I want, but sometimes it doesn't match what I thought it was gonna be. What do you say to that?

[7:46] Camelia Elias: Yeah, well, you know, I would say that when that happens, I would say that the, the that thing that I see as the primary condition for any magical, the success for of any magical operation is, um, is that, um, not only do you perform or embody your symbolic actions, stretch them to the maximum, and then you keep at it, yeah. But you also have to not, uh, act on fears, you know. So if you, any kind of fear, I mean that's like the, that's the, you kill it, you know. If you give in to fear, then you are there with, uh, with another world, you are with a world of illusion, yeah. You're not with the world of two people's magic, you know. If we are two people, I mean we can't control other people, so you got two people acting with their magic and their intentions are different. How does that, well, you know, now I'm going to say something stupid, or maybe something very clever, I hope.

[8:52] Camelia Elias: Um, well, you know, the you heard of the stories, and there is a reason why we have so, so many stories also in the, in our cultural consciousness, you know, uh, via films and theater, dance, movies, I mean, all of that poetry, you know, literature. Why do you suppose people write all of those things? Um, and what is it always about? It's about the stronger one, you know. So the stronger one wins. So if two people having two different magical agendas, and then if they come up against, you know, like they are at odds, let's put it that way. They are at odds with one another. There isn't a thing where, well, both yield, and then, you know, or both keep at it. So it's like all things being equal, you know, in some alchemical communities, they love to talk about that, you know, or when all things being equal, you know.

Um, there is, there is, uh, advancing, there is yielding, but sometimes when you yield power, you win. Sometimes when you advance, especially if the momentum is not with you, a lot of martial arts, um, talks about that, you know, and nothing but, you know, I have, uh, a love of martial arts and all things Japanese from the Sengoku period, which is the warring period, the warring era, uh, around 1500, yeah. So you know, so all the war manuals they talk about this dynamics, you know, between, uh, charging, engaging and then yielding power, and how you can win in both situations when you yield, when you charge. However, if the momentum is not with you, or if you can't recognize when the time is right for whatever action, then you are, you are dead meat, you know, you are a dead soldier, right?

[10:43] Camelia Elias: So, there isn't ever the situation when both can win even though they are at odds. If we have two magicians or two people, just regular people having different agendas, I would say that the one with the better stamina, the one with the better strategy and tactics wins. The one who is able to be totally detached and recognize the thing, whatever the thing is, as itself. You know, there is no emotion here in some magical, well, not just the magical, the tarot world. A lot of people think the emotions are so big. I'm not big on emotions, actually. I stay away from any emotions; I don't want them. I want clarity. So, the thing is that when two come against one another, the one with the best clarity wins. That's how I say it, and that invalidates the other person's tactics or strategy or everything else.

[10:43] Tonya Pinkins: Now, you didn't like emotion. What about with sex magic? Isn't the sexual energy an emotion or no?

[10:43] Camelia Elias: Oh, sexual energy is sexual energy. You know, it has nothing to do with any kind of emotion. Sometimes I wonder why people talk so much about emotions. I mean, I don't know that it doesn't do a thing for me. I mean, it's sexual arousal, you know, and all that sexual charisma. It has zero to do with emotions; it has all to do with the body. You know, how are you in your body? How prone are you to getting excited? If you like to listen to the wind in your hair, then it's very likely that you'll also be listening to the arrows, or, you know, be waiting like that with your chest open and say, "Cupid, why don't you just hit me today?" Can you make it ten times? Two times is too little, you know. So hit me, you know.

It's all about how you open yourself up to receiving the power of another, you know, because you think it's fun, you know, not because you are emotional. I mean, I don't get this emotion business, you know. It doesn't do a thing for me. It gets me in trouble, if anything.

[13:24] Camelia Elias: So, I know we just started a class on reading the Marseille cards, and I was looking up how you have a, you know, you talked about when you're reading, this is what I heard you say, that in divination you have to go, what is the context of the person you're with, the question, the clarity, and the caliber. Am I correct?

[13:50] Camelia Elias: Yes, usually I always have a bunch of trios or a trifecta or a four, you know. So, yeah, ever the academic, you know, we need to have some structure.

[14:00] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I was intrigued by this idea because when I pull my tarot every day, I go online and I find someone to tell me what that tarot means, and most of the time what they say is so general, it doesn't have any meaning in my world. So, I was intrigued by this idea that you said try to empty all the stories and just look at the image on the card and see what impressions come to me. Like that sort of interesting way to proceed in my daily tarot rather than having someone else tell me a story based on a culture or their education about the cards, to actually engage with the images that are before me and see what they say to me.

[14:44] Camelia Elias: Yeah, exactly. But, you know, I mean, there are different approaches to reading the tarot. So, I'm not with a school that receives impressions, the psychic schools, with all due respect. I have excellent friends, you know, who can pull that one off very beautifully. More power to them. But, you know, I like to think of myself, if I should have a label, I hate that, but you know, if I should, then I would say I prefer the term analytical fortune telling. Because what I start with is, I start, as I said, I start with this world of images, and there are rules for reading graphic design. It's no different than, you know, one-on-one art history or graphic design school. You just look at lines, you look at color, you look at how the elements on the card move, you know. What's the distance between them? I pay attention to negative space, you know, like the empty space between the elements.

[15:49] Camelia Elias: Like right now, I'm sitting here with a bunch of cards, and I have, as it happens, I have the emperor right here, facing up, you know. So, I see a man, you know, who's holding a big scepter, you know, very phallic, if you want some symbolism, very strong. This one is not in doubt as to what he needs to do. So, you know, he almost sits. He doesn't sit all that comfortably, but he leans into his throne, and right next to him, I'm looking at the Marseille Marseita Rot cards, set from 1650 as reconstructed by Jean-Claude Florent in France. So, the Jean Noble they are called. So, if anybody is interested. So, you know, he has this emblem there on a bird, you know, it's an eagle on his shield.

[16:42] Camelia Elias: So, what I do, instead of going, the emperor means power, or the hermit means solitude, you will find a whole list of meanings connected to the two cartomancy schools, especially within the Anglo-American context. And then there is the other school that I am an adherent to, which is called the graphic school. So, as soon as I see the first thing that I see, I don't really see that shield that the emperor has by his foot. You know, I go along, so that's one big blob, you know. So, what's up with this big blob, you know? Oh, I see it has some kind of bird on it. Oh, okay, what's that bird doing? Yeah, oh, it's all about to fly, you know.

[17:28] Camelia Elias: So, what I do is I start, when I go into any kind of reading, I start with these dumb observations. I have a good friend, you know, who is totally into this, you know, Enrique Enriquez of New York. You should check him out. So, he always says, you have to approach the tarot from a completely dumb perspective. So, you just have to make these dumb observations. Oh, this man, he seems to be in power, he's well dressed, has that big scepter in his hand, he has no ambiguities. Then the big blob there that we call a shield is by his foot. So, you know, you start to describe what you see on the card. And once you're done with that kind of job, then you think culturally, and that's when the symbolism kicks in. But this is not of the for symbolism a Lafroid or Jung, which is an even better, you know, beloved figure in some tarot communities.

[18:28] Camelia Elias: Oh, we are here with, you know, the man in power, you know. But we start thinking culturally, yeah. So, what do we know this person for? Why is he called the emperor? Yeah, why is he, how does he behave? What does he do? Yeah, so when I read the tarot, I'm always interested in what the heck I see first at the graphic level, and then I think culturally immediately what is the function of this figure. Yeah, so we all somewhere decided that the emperor is the one who rules, yeah. So, if the emperor means power, the emperor, tada, you know, that's the rhyme.

[19:02] Camelia Elias: And as we all know, I mean, here sitting with the 22 Trumps, just I mean, these are all figures from all walks of life. You know, we have the emperor, we have the empress, the concert, uh, we have the Pope, you know, the spiritual leader. Um, we we have the hermit, the one who's sick and tired of the world retreating to his cave. I mean, we all recognize these types, yeah, but they're not types in the sense of archetypes, you know, that's one discussion that actually irritates me about the discourse within the tarot community. And then it's like, what fucking archetypes, you know? Can we please stick to the basics, you know? So start to the start with looking at lines and then start to thinking immediately, how do we what do we know of this figure culturally speaking? Yeah.

[20:04] Camelia Elias: How do we get to that? You know, so what is the logic? You know, so why do we say that? So, of course, we say that because if we look at what the emperor performs at the functional level, you know, then we can easily make that logical inference. Ah, so maybe he has power because obviously, if he has a well-marked territory, and if his gun is bigger than the neighbor's gun, and he can defend the goddamn thing, then maybe he has power, you know. So, that's how we get to the idea of one of the cards, you know, having some significance. But when we read, you know, it's easy to fall into that trap, and immediately as soon as you lay the cards down, you start reading them according to these lists, yeah, lists of meanings that sometimes we don't even think about where these said phrases come from, how they are logically connected to both the graphic design on the card and then also the functional aspect of what we recognize culturally speaking.

[21:06] Camelia Elias: So, that is basically the premise for my reading. Then you are talking about context, you know. So, of course, I mean, I never read cards without the context, because then what would be the point of that?

[21:20] Camelia Elias: You know, that if I did that, then I would end up just lecturing, lecturing in art history or lecturing in graphic design. And you're seeing how the emperor's scepter, you know, in the next card, the next to it becomes two, I don't know, two eggs or something, two horses, you know, if we are with the card of the charioteer, right? And then I can immediately put two and two together and decide that, oh, perhaps what we are talking about here is the emperor getting ready to go to war, you know. Now he's been sitting or quasi sitting on his throne, and here comes the charioteer full in full armor, you know, and he's in motion, so we have movement, so we can instantly just begin to read those two cards together as the emperor being ready to act now.

[22:07] Tonya Pinkins: You're talking like so above most of our heads, like you have this. First of all, you have this educational academic knowledge. For most of us, we're gonna have to go and get a book. And then I know because it's something I've had you do, is that you turn those cards into a poem. To me, you're making you're talking about it as if, oh, it's so simple. Anybody can do this, and no, you have a skill set or an experiential set that gives you an ability to do something that is not as simplistic as you're presenting it. I couldn't do what you're doing. Most people couldn't do what you're doing. So here's we're kind of coming to the end of our time together. Tell me a time when you, something like something you thought of as bad happened to you, but it turned out to be a really great thing. Because sometimes the cards tell you something bad, but it turns out to be great, right?

[23:10] Camelia Elias: Um, you're gonna catch me again. You catch me on that one. Well, hmm. Um, can I go back to mother? Can I bring that? Can I go back to mother? You know, when mother she said don't assume anything, and then I like she meant it. She was speaking in some strange samurai voice, you know, like don't assume. Well, you see, when you say something bad happens, I never think of it in those terms, you know. So I just I never think of it in like, oh, the shit hits the fan. Oh my god, that was a disaster. I mean, I never think I never think I don't, I never because I don't assume anything, yeah. I know people, most people, you were like, oh, this doesn't look good. This is not, you know, things aren't good here.

You're gonna have to do something different. So, I mean, that's a negative connotation. Of course, but why did I say that? That is simply because I was reading the cards graphically speaking and culturally speaking, totally as the cards related to your context. So you had a very specific question, right? So, with that in mind, when I looked at the cards, you know, and then I saw the progression of what's like what's happening in these images. Where is the movement? Yeah, how where is it going? Because I had your question at the back of my mind, I could answer it in, you know, in those terms. So, of course, I'm not saying that I don't say this looks shitty. Oh, I say that all the time. You know, right?

Or speaking of so women come to me and say, oh yeah, my partner, and all that, and then she gets the fool, right? And I say, ditch him, man. I mean, what you can't live with this person. I mean, it's sometimes I think, oh my god, you know, people are gonna come and lynch me here over here. With that, they say, yeah, you ruined my marriage. You know, maybe I am guilty of that a few times. So if I have to admit, but on admission, you know, I'm guilty of breaking up marriages, like, whoa, you know, it's like I do this for a living, yeah. So I can impose that which we would call negative, you know, into the cards, but I only do that because I actually have a very specifically well formulated context on the table. So I'm not shooting from the hip, you know.

[25:36] Camelia Elias: Also said that the cards are always about things that are changing in the moment. So you pull the cards right now and it says leave your husband. What if we pull them tomorrow and it said your husband's great? I mean, isn't that possible too? Uh no, no, no, because no, because because speaking of that moment, you know, when you when you if you and now it we also talk about the seriousness of the event, you know, so it's like if somebody comes to you and wants to know about or wants to get a sense of where they stand in relation to one another, you know, and it's as often I get this like people really don't have clarity. I say, I'm not sure I can read my husband anymore, you know, and it's a real concern.

Uh what am I gonna do? So when the people come to you and put that sort of question on your table in all earnest so that's the condition yeah then in my long experience now with the cards you know I have never experienced the situation where today in this very moment the cards say leave him and then tomorrow asking the same question I mean that doesn't that doesn't even happen. People don't go home and then oh I'm although I have experienced that also where people have to double check and then they go to two or three other fortune tellers and then the cards will say different things but I would say okay you know what what you are lacking you lack seriousness you are not serious what you're what you're after is just some piece of trash news you know of course the cards can also give you trash news because because you yourself are trash you you you you are not serious so you know so I'm I'm always quite serious myself you know and people if people come to me and if I if I detect that now I never judge the question because it's not my table to judge what people put on my table I don't even have an interest you know the only thing that interests me is how well formulated the question is because otherwise I can't I can't be precise.

[26:52] Camelia Elias: So the other thing I don't but you know I if I if I sense that oh this person is like the flakes right and there's there's plenty of that around um you're not serious right if if I see that they're not serious then uh well I can try and I can try and broach it, you know, to them and say, you know, and what what are you thinking exactly? Or why why do you want to know this? So then I try to bring them closer to a reflective state where they actually think about the implication of what they are asked, what what they're asking. Because I mean, if if you just want entertainment, I mean, man, just put on your TV and you're gonna get the same.

[28:24] Tonya Pinkins: Camelia, it's been a real pleasure to speak with you and to just I could probably spend years with your mind. I had like a whole series of questions about what it's like to even read or learn about things in an academic situation that are mostly written by men because women have such a different kind of wisdom about the world, but we don't have time for all of that. Is there anything you want to say as we wrap up? I'm so grateful to you for taking the time to speak with me.

[28:51] Camelia Elias: Oh yes, that thing would keep going. Yes, I could, I could I could share more stories. Um and the women, yes, I did send, I did send my male boss or something. I just I just tell them to go fuck themselves, you know. So that's my answer to that shit. Um, so you know, sometimes I get away with it, and sometimes you know I don't, but then I don't give a fuck. So that's my response to the world, you know. But what I would have to say, uh, what about the clarity, you know, gain clarity. One way or another, there are ways through which people can gain clarity. And one way in which you can do that is to simply not assume it, don't assume anything, you know. Where is mother? I can hear that she's applauding.

But really, um, that's I think that that that makes people's lives easier. Not that I should give any advice, I don't even know why I do that. Um, but you know, I feel that in this world where so many disconnected parts, you know, are being experienced, the best is to simply just take a step back and then not assume anything at the knowing how the future goes and what's how everything unfolds and just abide in that calm, you know, and because it's only in that that you can actually see what's happening. So you know, so I think that that a lot of people can experience um a relief, you know. So achieve some peace of mind, you know, and and peace of mind you can achieve it if you have clarity, clarity, you know. So emotions and all these other things. I mean, I leave that to literature, you know.

[30:26] Tonya Pinkins: I love it. Clarity. I always feel like you know, when you when you do have clarity, a path is there before you. And if there's an intention and there's something mixed in there, that something little extra, that little grain of salt is going to change the outcome. Thank you so much, Camelia, for joining me here. My name is Tonya Pinkins, and you've been listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show Where You Can on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[31:02] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show Where You Can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derek Gunther with music by Cat Dail. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream. Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins. And to learn more, visit BPN dot FM forward slash YCST. Stay safe. This is Tonya Pinkins.