This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back to part two of my conversation with New York Times bestselling author Cynthia Bond. My name is Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to You Can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:14] Cynthia Bond: We gotta speak to life. We gotta say one who's the real.

[0:57] Cynthia Bond: And the boys had family members who were killed and they recanted their stories. And the girl, I guess she didn't have any family for them to harm. So she never recanted her story, and they sent her to prison for 27 years for perjury. Now, nobody can how could she perjure herself? You know, she says this happened to her. There's nobody who can say it didn't happen to her. So, yes, there is great punishment to people who want to talk about what they have suffered. And as we see with the Epstein case, very few of these women are coming forward to name names.

[1:34] Tonya Pinkins: Right. Well, they I mean, obviously it's very clear your life is at risk if you choose to do this.

[1:43] Cynthia Bond: And one of the things that was one of the many, many sort of acts of evil genius, I believe, was this idea of the false memory syndrome. That was introduced just as all of these women, just as everyone was starting to come out and talk about the specifics, and there was a and it there wasn't just one person, these stories again and again repetition of details, repetition of the exact same thing. There is something that exists that um and and this is what I've been able to sort of gain and gather that there was this very strong satanic um cult life that has existed since slavery, and one of the things that was done within this cult is that um it was a boon or a benefit to sacrifice one's own child.

So that because that was the ultimate sacrifice, so that during slavery, very often um uh the masters would rape someone use and sacrifice yeah, and sacrifice the black children. So you know, yeah, now I have sought and you know, and these are I have spoken specifically with people who have shared this information with me. There uh there's so much more I want to learn.

[3:37] Cynthia Bond: I'm gonna say something radical. Um, I've always thought this from okay my childhood that if there is a devil, it's God's devil. I do think that the quality of the divine um is neutral and it manifests in all things. Um so I think that when people start trying to make something satanic, it's a way of putting a judgment on something. I think your point of power is very critical. People want power, and they use um various ancient rituals um as ways of building power, and there's much talk in the magic and manifestation community about the use of bodily fluids and sacrificing and violence and sex as a way of building power.

[4:27] Cynthia Bond: So let's get to um an event that happened, I think was it September 11th? Was that the day that um we I was present on a Zoom call in our my writing class with you, and um you were at the hands of of several uh white men who were uh using the power that this culture that is America gave them over you. What is your version of what happened that day?

[5:03] Cynthia Bond: Okay, so um I want to, though, I'm gonna tell you that I want to go back and say the power, satanic, all of that. Um, what I do believe, uh, there's a bunch of there's so much of that we do not understand, but what I think is I do not believe everything happens for a reason. I don't, but I do believe that energy can be shifted and changed and turned in different directions. And I think there are a lot of people who um, and and specifically uh I think there are a lot of people who utilize cults. It's almost like the condensation of power over, not celebration and joy. It can come out of fear of trying to protect, it can come out of trying to have power over, and there can also be just this amazing celebration of life, which is what the trees are to Ruby. That's what nature is to me. It is that connection.

[6:19] Cynthia Bond: So um, but what happened to me going to that? Um, yes. Um I um would you like me to tell it from my point of view?

[6:36] Tonya Pinkins: Well, yeah, you can.

[6:37] Cynthia Bond: It's a tough, tough thing because I'm still in the middle of it. It's not over. I still have uh a court case that that is um hanging, looming, floating around that I am gonna have to deal with. But um, yeah, go ahead. You can tell this thing that came to everybody's mind this year is the Karen, which turned into the CAREN ACT in California, which Gavin Newsom signed sometime in the last few weeks, AB 1775, I think it is, and it is this idea of uh people who uh have the complexion for the protection weaponizing that to harm uh people of color for just living and breathing while being of color, uh using night the 911 system, the law enforcement system to uh weaponize their their whiteness and risk people's lives.

[7:39] Cynthia Bond: And so uh I was witness to that when our class was interrupted, and I could hear you on the phone uh talking about the fact that your house was now surrounded by police, and then a phone call came in, and the police uh were on the phone and um asking you if that was your car and asking you to come outside and stand by your car. And uh my terror, um, knowing all of the women who've been killed by the police, um, and worrying that I was gonna actually witness that happen that day with you.

[8:17] Tonya Pinkins: Right. And what I want to say is the work that you've done, you've literally been with mothers of uh of these young black women who have been killed. So I know that moment for you was uh all of us.

[8:38] Cynthia Bond: Let's talk about okay.

[8:41] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, okay, okay. Just have an hour on me. Let's talk about you.

[8:47] Cynthia Bond: All right. You are fascinating, Tonya. I'm gonna interview you at some point. I really am. I don't know when I'm gonna do it.

[8:52] Cynthia Bond: Um, but yeah, you know, I I the the gentleman um uh I rent from him. I have a home that I rent from him, and he wanted to enter the home. Um and uh I said no. And there's when a landlord wants to enter, they have to give a certain kind of written notice, and it has to be four hours, and none of those procedures were followed. None of those things were done, and I'm just gonna tell the truth of what it is because it's hard to tell this story without telling the full truth, and that is that I'm a writer, and I have a book that was late, and then they moved the book uh publication to next year. So financially I was taking advantage of the rent moratorium in Los Angeles, and so uh he didn't like that, even though it's the law of the land, you know, it is allowed here.

[10:01] Cynthia Bond: So he came to the door, he came. I opened the door, I was in the middle of teaching Zoom, middle of teaching a Zoom class. He opened the door, and uh, I mean, I opened the door and he was there with there about four white men with him. I'd never seen these guys, and I said, you know, I'm teaching, and they wanted to know, well, when are you finished? I said, 15 minutes, and so I went back to and closed the door, said you can't come in and finished teaching, and then the I asked you and uh Frankie and Thaiko to stay on. Then the door went like big slam on the door. Again, didn't answer. And then we get a call from, you know, I get this call from the police, and he's saying, um, you know, uh, what's going on in there? And I said, I don't know. I didn't even know it was a policeman.

[11:07] Cynthia Bond: And uh, or no, he did tell me it was a police officer. And um, and then he said, you know, uh your landlord said you pulled a gun on him, and we take that kind of thing seriously. And I wrote an essay, which I am rewriting now since the bill was signed and is now uh in force in California, but um I just remember just screaming he lied and falling back on the uh falling back on the chair. Uh I say it's the cat's chair because I've given that chair to the cat, and I never sit on that chair, but I sat on the chair, and I remember you all were saying, don't, you know, don't talk on the phone, get off of the phone. And I there was a part of me that just felt like if I could just explain to them, if I could just tell them certainly they're not gonna think this about me, this is a lie, but I I don't remember, I mean, I've experienced a lot of fear in my life, but I do not remember I I knew it was a possibility, Tanya, but I not really not in my body. I thought somehow I'd worked it out that I could avoid, you know.

[12:55] Cynthia Bond: I mean, sure, if there's a cop behind me driving, there's always that fear you live with that.

[13:03] Tonya Pinkins: Right, as a black person.

[13:05] Cynthia Bond: No, no, I'm saying as a black person, yeah.

[13:07] Tonya Pinkins: No, no, no, no, no. Let's be clear.

[13:09] Cynthia Bond: I just hear the siren and I'm scared.

[13:13] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, yeah.

[13:13] Cynthia Bond: I mean, it's just it's an it's a knee-jerk, and it's always been that way. But my parameter has always been okay. I could be driving down the street, the cop could pull me over. That's what I'm thinking. Never in a million years could I have imagined that I would be in my home teaching a class, and a man would lie to police and tell them I had a gun.

[13:45] Tonya Pinkins: I mean, and do you have a gun?

[13:48] Cynthia Bond: Do you have a gun?

[13:50] Cynthia Bond: I do not have a gun. I don't, I don't, I don't, I've never owned a gun. I do not have a gun. I don't know how to shoot a gun. I am scared of guns. Guns terrified me. My stepfather had a gun, and I was just that thing just always scared the shit out of me. I never have had a gun. And so this idea of me pulling a gun and and the fact, and and then the police, you know, are like, well, is this your uh black SUV?

[14:26] Cynthia Bond: I don't know if he said Lexus S. I don't know what he said. Is this your SUV? Um and I said yes. He said, Well, could you uh come and stand by the car? And I just said, No, no, I am not gonna stand by the car. I am not coming out. I am not stepping out of this door. I don't care what happens. I I mean, I thought if they are gonna break in here, they can do that, but I am not taking my black foot outside of this door and stepping outside into the line of fire. And I found out later, my neighbor told me there were nine police cars here. Nine. Entitlement to think that that he felt quite comfortable calling the police, making this claim, knowing they would show up, that nine police officers are at your door, you're a single woman, that it's gonna take that much force. How many other things are going on in the world where people actually are in need of some help that they can't get it because everybody's at your house, like, you know, this is a military siege.

[15:37] Cynthia Bond: Yeah, it is. I mean, that it whenever I get into um, you know, I am, and you you know this about me, Tanya. I am the kind of person that I always just feel responsible for people, and I'm worried, you know, I go out of my way to, you know, just put it in. A lot of guilt because we as black women and we're mothers, we get blamed for everything. We don't even have the right to feel trauma. The first place we go is, what did I do? And the fact is, in that moment, what you did is frustrated the will of a white man. And in America, when any white person, man or woman's will is frustrated, they can weaponize the police and threaten your life and cost you your life.

[16:30] Cynthia Bond: Yes, and that's what I want to say. In a way, it was I mean, there is no gift in this. But this is what I will say is this is one instance where I can go, well, I certainly could not be responsible for this. I have no gun. I've never pulled a gun on anyone. And uh, I think the fact that that he felt the entitlement to do that, it's still just fucking with me. I mean, I am it is I am still and I know from talking to you that you felt like, well, maybe it was some karma. It may you didn't do it this time, but maybe you did something in your life sometime, and like white person, and what's happening to them now is from something in the past. They just feel that there's no wrong they can do, that they're so anointed and chosen by God and so superior that what they do is just good and right, yeah, that's really true.

[17:45] Tonya Pinkins: Yep, that is definitely the opposite of that. And it really is so much about being a black woman, it's about being a woman and being told you're responsible for men's sexuality, you're responsible, what you wear, what you do, you are suddenly, whatever any man does, you are responsible. It is your fault. Please lay let me lay that fault at your doorstep. As a black woman, oh my lord, the things that have happened after this, it has uh I I remember talking to uh one woman who has been a real guide for me and a real mentor. And um she she's the only person who asked this. Oh, except another white person asked this. I was like, Well, did you pull a did did you pull a gun on them? I've known this woman for like 25 years.

Look, honey, I know white people relationship for us. We get no benefit of the doubt, no matter how long they've known us. I've had so many of them. But this is what I'm saying. This woman has known me forever. She knows me. So nobody, no, and believe me, there are other white people in my life. They did not say that. So, and there are people I've known the same amount of time. But this woman said that. And then when I said I had a problem with it, she said, um, you know, I told her that then the next time we talked, she was very upset with me. Very, very upset. And she said, you know, it just really upsets me that you would think that I would be racist. You would think I would be racist. I don't see color. You've known me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[19:44] Cynthia Bond: And I just thought about the book, White Fragility and Not Seeing Color and what it means to not see color, you know. Um, then do you are you not seeing me because I do have a color, you know. But it's beyond that. And why are you going to get a tan if you don't see color? What you're sitting in the sun for. You don't see color. What does that but the but the thing that was, I think the really, really, really challenging um part about that is she said, well, your family's educated, aren't they? I mean, you don't really experience, and I just remember uh just um yeah that was a tough one. And I've had other conversations where uh family doesn't, you know, they don't some people don't want me talking about this because you know, you've always got to look good.

You don't want to hear that there's any, you know, unbalance or anything going on in your life, and um, but uh yeah, imbalance going on in your life. So it's it's this idea that everything you just always have to have a wonderful face forward. But it really has forward when the police were just there and almost killed me. Oh, yeah, I had a good day today.

[21:18] Cynthia Bond: So now I have a hearing on what stay. I want to say that for me, watching you, you know, I it was almost the same quality of how I'm listening to you talk about it, which is this kind of uh dissociative thing. I'm watching I'm in terror. I'm thinking any minute I'm gonna watch my friend die, the way I've watched so many people be killed by the police on TV, and you are thinking you can talk your way out of it. I'm uh I'm an author, I'm an Oprah bookseller, and I'm like, they don't care, you just another nigga. And and you I know I did. I I launched into my thing about oh, I'm a New York Times best-selling author. You don't want to kill me because you know, maybe somebody would sue you if I, you know, somebody might have the ability to I know Oprah, you she could just, you know, it's crazy, it's crazy.

And what was difficult was that was uh there's two things. One, there is still a part of me that that is still dissociated that that I still have dissociation around this event. So talking about it, I do step out of it a little bit. I still even it's too bangful, you wouldn't this moment that day you were close to death that day. I felt it. I I we all tried to write about it, and it was just so upsetting. I I I I couldn't write about it. It took me it, I started to write and it took me out for a day. I couldn't, I couldn't.

[22:57] Cynthia Bond: Yeah. Because I I wrote about it, and by the time I finished the essay, the vote was like, I mean, not the vote, but the the bill would have either been signed into law, uh like the very next day. And so now I'm rewriting it, but it is, it's so hard. So so so hard to write about. I do want to say um that in the face of all of this and all of the pain that I have, uh some of which, you know, some I felt and some that I've felt and some that I have not. Um there is still this part of me, I realized it's like there's this secret, and that secret, Tanya, is that I still have hope. I don’t know if it's that I have hope in the system, okay. But I have hope. Um I I have hope in a variety of things.

One, I have hope that this can go. I see your face, but I have hope that this can. I I can have any hope because I I read that bill, and there is no punishment for these people of like $50, $500. There is no that's not no consequence. Sorry, no consequences. Okay, no, that's what I know from last white husband. Risk reward is how white people look at shit. What's the risk? What's the reward? Oh, it's gonna cost me $500 to have that nigga put in jail or they get killed, it's worth it. Okay, but listen to this, listen to this, okay. I read the um I so this is the kind of fucked up thing about talking about hope is that it makes you seem like, oh, like I'm some old fay, which is what my father would call, oh, you just you just believing in this person saving you or that, and that's not what this is about.

Uh it's not what this is about at all. It is that I have hope and faith in my own resources, my own ability to stand tall and to speak truth. I have faith and hope in the fact that I have women around me who strengthen me and and make me a better person, make me a stronger person, who see me, and that therefore I am better able to see myself. And I do believe, I don't know what it's gonna take, but I do believe, I do believe that the arc of history bends towards will one day bend towards justice. I do, Tanya, I do. That is my secret, and I don't I don't believe that it is a weakness, however, I think that the rage and the anger that I have and that I feel is something that I have never felt in my life, and I am not dependent upon anyone else to fix it. I am not dependent upon anyone else to fix it, but I do believe that um yeah, I do believe that justice can prevail.

[26:43] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I do perfect place to uh conclude this conversation. I want to thank you for uh joining me today, Cynthia Bond, author of Ruby, and sharing with us your secrets and writing and your beautiful work. And I encourage everyone to go out and read this extraordinary novel and to be ready for book two. Um and uh we're gonna have a follow-up podcast uh about this uh event from the three women who were on Zoom living it while it was happening. My name is Tonya Pinkins, and you are listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, my show You Can't SAY THAT. Uh we're gonna be starting a special series called Spotlight, where we talk about uh the red pilling of America inspired by my movie Red Pill. So join us for that and come back for the part two of um why we need Karen acts all over America.

Don't say no and me know. Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show Where you can. I'm Tonya Pinkins. This is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derrick Gunther, music by Anthony Norman. Available wherever you get your podcast. And visit me on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram and let me know what you'd like to hear me talk about. For more information, visit bpn.fm forward slash YCST. It's not a gift if you don't.