This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tonya Pinkins: Welcome back for part two of my conversation with Joanne Zippel of Zip Creative.

[0:23] Joanne Zippel: Well, that's the other thing about the work that I do is that your creative work doesn't happen in a vacuum. And so the life coaching aspect of it is how do I look at my life, my entire life, not just my work life? Because, you know, you have these other desires in your vision. How do I want my family to be? How do I want to? There are people who want to get married and have children, there are people who don't, there are people who have children. And so how do I balance what I'm doing in my creative career with my other part of my life?

[1:06] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[1:06] Joanne Zippel: And I think that is really an important aspect of being able to do your best work. Is that you have to, you know, and to also have some kind of downtime or, you know, and to also be able to have time for yourself, have time for your family, have time for whatever it is that's not your work.

[1:32] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that I think that was one of the questions that I was asking myself just yesterday, which was, you know, there are these ideas of what your children should be doing at various ages. And you know, some of mine aren't. And I like to try to hold the space for them that it's all gonna work out and that they're exactly where they are, but at the same time, there's the way I was raised, and you know, I was raised in a very punitive way. And there's like you need to, you know, people are like, you need to just throw them out on the street, and you need to. And it's like, that's not who I am.

[2:07] Joanne Zippel: No.

[2:08] Tonya Pinkins: I'm not throwing anybody out on the street.

[2:09] Joanne Zippel: Right.

[2:10] Tonya Pinkins: So that's not even an option. I'm not that person. I couldn't live with that. So having to say, well, I'm gonna just have to live with being annoyed and unhappy with the choices that they're making and trusting that that's gonna work out, you know, for the best in the long run, even though right now I don't approve or like it, but I can't.

[2:35] Joanne Zippel: And they probably don't like your judgment either.

[2:37] Tonya Pinkins: Absolutely.

[2:39] Joanne Zippel: Absolutely. So it's like how do you just love them?

[2:43] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that's what I've been working on. How do I just love and trust them?

[2:48] Joanne Zippel: And trust it's hard. That is probably the hardest thing in my life.

[2:52] Tonya Pinkins: Like as a mom, I totally get that. I totally get it.

[2:55] Joanne Zippel: But on the other hand, you know, as I've been able to just let go of that, some of that, you know, like the way it should be, or why I thought it should be, or the way my parents thought it should be, or you know, whatever that was, and see them for who they are, which is, you know, they're very different than me, you know. But it's and give them that space and support them. You know, it's really empowering, not only to them, but to you as well, to just be able to just, you know, take a deep breath.

[3:28] Tonya Pinkins: It's hard, it's hard.

[3:29] Joanne Zippel: It's really hard. And I feel like I've been doing that, and then it's like, okay, it's, you know, I think that I have an expectation that okay, after I do it for a while, something's gonna change, and it's not changing fast enough.

[3:41] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[3:41] Joanne Zippel: But you know, they're not you. I mean, you know, they have to live their lives.

[3:46] Tonya Pinkins: How old are they?

[3:46] Joanne Zippel: Uh, 20.

[3:48] Tonya Pinkins: All no, no, no, the one that I'm most concerned about. My kids are 32, 29, 23, and 20.

[3:54] Joanne Zippel: Oh wow.

[3:55] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, big big range.

[3:56] Joanne Zippel: Big big range.

[3:57] Tonya Pinkins: And all adults, like I can't make them tell them to do anything.

[4:04] Joanne Zippel: But um that's true. You can't make them do anything.

[4:08] Tonya Pinkins: And make them do it. And you know, they all have different personalities and they are who they are. And so, you know, it's if you try to push too hard, then you know, there's clashes. And it's like, and what is it that, you know, what is it that you why you feel you need them to be a certain way?

[4:29] Joanne Zippel: Um, I'm gonna see I think that I and I'm not a therapist, but I think that I see them struggling, and I know that my way when I'm struggling or depressed is to look for help.

[4:46] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[4:46] Joanne Zippel: Like I go, I need help. Is it in a book? Is it in a person? Is it a doctor? I'm a proactive person. I think that most people wouldn't even be aware that most of my life I was depressed.

[5:00] Tonya Pinkins: Really?

[5:01] Joanne Zippel: But my way of dealing with depression is to get active. Um and theirs is to completely retreat from everything. So it's just a way I don't I don't know how to be, I don't understand it, it scares me. Um, I come from a family where there's a lot of mental illness. So, you know, I'm usually like it's okay, is this mental illness? And you know, I've seen really tragic consequences of that, so it pushes a lot of buttons and fear for me around that.

[5:30] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[5:31] Joanne Zippel: And I think that I think it's when you are connected to that fear place, even if you're not saying something to them, they can feel it energetically, right?

[5:42] Tonya Pinkins: Absolutely.

[5:43] Joanne Zippel: So it's like so being able to sort of not go there to really go to that trust place and say, and you know, you can make suggestions and they may not agree, but sometimes it might be.

[5:59] Tonya Pinkins: I don't think I've my children, any of my children have ever followed any of my suggestions.

[6:03] Joanne Zippel: Your children follow your suggestions.

[6:05] Tonya Pinkins: Not all, yeah, they're both not really. They send other people to me for advice.

[6:10] Joanne Zippel: Right, right, right, right. Absolutely. I don't know. I think um I don't my daughter who's also a theater maker, she's you know, she's in the business, so you know sometimes she'll actually ask my opinion.

[6:22] Tonya Pinkins: Well so she can go, okay, I'm not gonna do that.

[6:28] Joanne Zippel: No, but that's my women friends. I mean, that was that was a big thing because she never would, you know. So I I think I think we're you know, making some progress, but but also, you know, your child is 20, you know, they're gonna grow up and they're gonna have to remember that the brain isn't even fully fine.

[6:44] Tonya Pinkins: I know.

[6:45] Joanne Zippel: I know.

[6:45] Tonya Pinkins: So, you know, maybe just letting go a little bit.

[6:47] Joanne Zippel: I know.

[6:48] Tonya Pinkins: And just trusting and let, you know, just because you're gonna feel better too. Just breathe, you know.

[6:55] Joanne Zippel: Yes, there are many days I can do that. There are many, many days that I'm able to do that. And certainly as I get deeper into my own work, I almost forget about them. But in this particular moment where I'm not deeply ensconced in something, you know, my attention, I have all this attention that's focused there.

[7:18] Tonya Pinkins: So when you ask me about me or my career, I think okay, I think I know what the question is. My old-fashioned understanding of the press and the media, and I don't even know that this applies anymore because I haven't had the opportunity to do it, is that when something goes big, it is the result of a long process of laying the groundwork.

[7:45] Joanne Zippel: And my only example is that when I won the Tony for Jelly's Last Jam, which is 30 years ago, the world has changed a lot.

[7:52] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[7:53] Joanne Zippel: Um, my publicist and I were writing stories, making sure there was great photography, and we were sending that stuff out for six, eight months before anyone was even interested in anything about me. And then as soon as I got the first like nomination for I don't know if it's the drama desk, suddenly all those things we've been doing for those for that time hit, and I was like in People Magazine six weeks in a row. But it was because we've been laying the groundwork for something for a long time.

[8:31] Tonya Pinkins: Is it still work that way?

[8:32] Joanne Zippel: I think so, sure. I mean, you have to find ways to um, and I guess that's you know, we're talking about that whole quote, brand or whatever, um, which I don't I don't love that word anymore.

[8:43] Tonya Pinkins: Um what's the word you like?

[8:45] Joanne Zippel: What do you think of it as?

[8:46] Tonya Pinkins: Um, I don't know, it it's I think it's more just what am I about, you know.

[8:55] Joanne Zippel: Um, but I guess branding is a word you have to use, you can use just because it's not the same thing as marketing, by the way.

[9:02] Tonya Pinkins: Branding and marketing are two different things.

[9:04] Joanne Zippel: Women okay, well, but what's the difference?

[9:06] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[9:07] Joanne Zippel: Branding is really about that what it is you're about, your mission or your, you know, purpose.

[9:15] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, so my mission and my purpose is to make stories that I can be proud of, that speak to the world in ways that are going to activate them for the good for a higher good. That would be my brand and mission.

[9:32] Joanne Zippel: That okay, that's very well articulated. So you know that your marketing is what am I gonna do to get that word out there? That's where am I gonna do social media? Am I gonna hire a publicist? Am I going to do all those things? And in what way am I doing um am I gonna have uh do events around it, you know, like for instance that's qualifying that? It's yeah, and that was that's that's a big a big distinction. And that's why I think doing that, and I encourage all my clients to do that work of why am I doing this? What's my purpose? You know, and when company when people start companies, they have their mission, you know. What is it that is my I encourage people and artists to um do an artistic statement, and that's not just your bio, like I did this, I did that. No, this is you articulated your purpose really clearly, which I think is fantastic.

[10:33] Tonya Pinkins: So you're there, and but that's the that's your brand, is what it is you want to be doing.

[10:43] Joanne Zippel: Now you have this wonderful thing on your website called Fast Forward Fridays.

[10:48] Tonya Pinkins: Mm-hmm.

[10:48] Joanne Zippel: Yeah. And which I would love for you to do.

[10:50] Tonya Pinkins: Well, we're gonna do it together.

[10:51] Joanne Zippel: We're gonna do it together.

[10:54] Tonya Pinkins: Because I looked on there and I saw that you had only answered like the first three questions.

[10:59] Joanne Zippel: Who had only answered?

[11:00] Tonya Pinkins: You did.

[11:01] Joanne Zippel: On your Zip Creative website, of these questions that you ask every guest artist on Fast Forward Fridays, you had only answered three of them.

[11:10] Tonya Pinkins: Oh that's interesting.

[11:12] Joanne Zippel: You did you not know that?

[11:13] Tonya Pinkins: Well, no, because I I didn't really interview myself.

[11:17] Joanne Zippel: Oh, well, there we these three of these questions, you their answers from you on the website.

[11:22] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, really?

[11:22] Joanne Zippel: You did one?

[11:23] Tonya Pinkins: No.

[11:24] Joanne Zippel: Okay. I mean, I think that's interesting. Here we go. So we'll both answer these questions.

[11:28] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[11:29] Joanne Zippel: Uh we'll go to you first. What are you currently working on? Tell us about it.

[11:33] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, okay. Well, um, and let me just start before we answer that. This is from the Zip Creative website. Every Friday, there's something called Fast Forward Friday. Every Friday, it's like every couple of weeks.

[11:44] Joanne Zippel: Every couple of weeks.

[11:45] Tonya Pinkins: But they're really great um questions. This series of questions is fantastic where you get to understand an artist's process. Um, and really just good questions for any artists to ask themselves. So Joanne and I are gonna do it right now.

[11:59] Joanne Zippel: Wow.

[11:59] Tonya Pinkins: All right. So what are you currently working on? Tell us about it.

[12:02] Joanne Zippel: Well, um, I uh in addition to we're still doing the marketing phase of Bite Me, which is the film that I uh executive produced. Uh it's about a uh a young woman who identifies as a it's a romantic comedy. Um it identifies as a real life vampire who falls in love with the IRS agent who's auditing her.

[12:28] Tonya Pinkins: You and you saw it, right?

[12:30] Joanne Zippel: I did. It's really good.

[12:31] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. It's it's funny, and it's um and it stars Naomi McDougal Jones, who's that wrote that book that we were talking about earlier.

[12:39] Joanne Zippel: Uh and Christian Colson, who played Tom Riddle and Harry Potter in the Chamber of Secrets, uh, and Naomi Grossman from American Horror Story, and Annie Golden of Broadway, and also from Orange is a New Black.

[12:52] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[12:53] Joanne Zippel: Yeah. So that we are in, we are still in release, technically.

[12:57] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[12:57] Joanne Zippel: We did a we did a three-month Joyful Vampire Tour of America last in 2019, uh, where we went to 40 cities, 51 screenings all around the country.

[13:08] Joanne Zippel: Naomi and her husband and a documentary filmmaker were in an RV and literally went circumvented the United States. And that's how we met because that's I was talking to you to see if that was something that I might want to do for my film, Red Pill.

[13:22] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[13:22] Joanne Zippel: Exactly. Which, you know, I don't know if that's still something you're thinking about.

[13:23] Tonya Pinkins: I don't know.

[13:26] Joanne Zippel: Me in an RV, I don't know. I'm not the camping girl. I'm not the camping girl. And I'm working on my first uh independent feature film, which is called Red Pill. It's a socio-political horror film that stars Reuben Blades, Catherine Irby, uh of Law and Order, Reuben Blades International Star in getting the Harvard Medal of Arts of Slatine Man to ever get that. Uh Kathy Curtin of Orange is a New Black and Insecure and Stranger Things and so many other things. Um Adeshala Osaka Lumi of Um, what is that? Beatles movie Across the World or something that Julie Timor's universe across the Universe and Fella, and um who else, Kobe Minifee, who's on the boys. And I am in the editing phase.

[14:11] Joanne Zippel: I have an incredible team. Uh Julie Tamor's entire sound team, uh, T. Skull and Paul Su and Michael Berry and Carter Little are gonna do the sound for my film. So we are waiting for an edit. My editors from Two Sentence Horror Story and Um Random Acts of Finest. So I'm an edit. As I said, I thought I was gonna be in screening, and I have a whole bunch of venues that want to do private screenings for me in May and June in various places in the country. So that might be your instead of a tour, but that's kind of like that. Getting them really and building an audience that way.

[14:48] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[14:49] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, and trying to strategize how to do that. So, what was the inspiration and impetus for Bite Me?

[14:54] Joanne Zippel: Well, it was Naomi's project, obviously. But um, we were working together at the time. I um when I first read it, I was coaching her, and then I ended up managing her, and then I became an executive producer. Um but uh she she just was she was on the set, I think of boardwalk. She'll tell you all this, I'm sure. But she was on the set of boardwalk empire, she was acting in it, and it was a long day, and she happened to talk to one of the um background actors who you know, they was like 16-hour day, and they were talking, you know, what do you do? Blah blah blah. And she revealed to her that she was a real vampire, and she was like, Well, I'm a writer. Tell me everything, you know, that there really existed, these people existed.

And I think she also wanted to write a story that made people happy and laugh because she had her first feature was a pretty serious drama about um mental illness, actually, uh, which she won a ton of awards for. Um, and but this was something that she just really wanted to do.

[16:03] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, and also she wanted to have a a protagonist, a female protagonist who you know could be have could be unusual and have difficulties, and who kind of could get the guy, but at the end and didn't have to take her glasses off, you know. It was like that kind of thing. And so I think uh it was there was a number of reasons why she and I read the script early on, and I was just wow, this is so funny. This is so original, it's so clever, because it's it is very clever. Uh and I said, Yeah, you got you know, you gotta make this, you know. And then I and then I brought Jack Lechner on, who was another executive producer with me who's done a ton of things. He he he was a uh an executive for years for Miramax and HBO and Channel 4, and he's now a professor at Columbia, but he also produced the Academy Award-winning Fog of War and the Um and Blue Valentine with Ryan Gosling and Michelle Williams. So, you know, just so smart. And so he came on board, and then so it but but it was a you know, it's a long it was a long haul.

[17:17] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, it still is because you're still in the world.

[17:19] Joanne Zippel: Right. Well, we're well, we're in, yeah, because we're on um Amazon, Google Play, and iTunes, so you can watch it online. Um, and we are we have an uh as a result of that tour, we were really able to um get offers. We got some uh distribution offers, not ones that we particularly wanted to take, but then we got a sales agent on board who's now in um Berlin at the EFM, you know, selling it to international markets and hopefully to get a some domestic like a pay TV deal.

[17:53] Tonya Pinkins: So nice so we're doing that.

[17:56] Joanne Zippel: Well, Red Pill, I guess is a long story of me having a life of always being a little ahead of the world. Um I just as a child, I would know things before they were gonna happen. My mother had that, and she was schizophrenic, so it wasn't something I was proud of. And whenever I tried to ever like let people know, like, hey, this terrible thing's gonna happen, let's like make it happen. That would always make it worse. And so it's really something I really kind of suppressed. And um, when the last election was happening, I just like I knew who was gonna win. It was pretty clear. And anytime I brought that up to people, I in New York at least, I was treated with contempt. I was treated like I had two heads. And um I uh I remember being more afraid than I had ever been because I just thought if people don't understand, if people can't see the writing on the walls, we're in we're just we're in danger. I was terrified.

[19:03] Joanne Zippel: I was terrified, and I remember my union um for a hundred three years. This is actor's equity, had a in the constitution that we did not ever support political candidates because the members are every candidate, every kind of you know, pop political position, and that was a constitutional, you know, rule. And in the last election, I remember arguing vehemently that this was not the time to change it. Do not change it. And you know, they did change it, and subsequently the tax laws, which really hurt actors hard, came out. And so there was this sort of powerlessness of. I mean, I think I realized early in my life that when I was getting information about things, it wasn't for me to change it. I was just getting a heads up, like, gas up. Wow. It was about to be an oil strike or something like that.

[20:01] Joanne Zippel: And um last summer I was uh with a friend and we were talking about the mass shootings, and uh she said something that I felt it was this sort of typical progressive, you know, we're so smart and we're so elite and those stupid people kind of thing. And uh it was kind of almost you know like a a flash over the next couple of days, this dystopian story about um this posse of progressives riding to Red Country the weekend of the election, armed with their hard humor and naivete, but they should have brought some heavy artillery. It just came to me. Um, and we made that movie in uh from the end of July, mid November, we were in the can, which I think is pretty remarkable for a first time filmmaker.

[20:53] Tonya Pinkins: Wow, yeah.

[20:55] Joanne Zippel: Who are your artistic heroes who have had an impact on your work?

[20:59] Tonya Pinkins: That's a good question.

[20:59] Joanne Zippel: You know, I I I haven't answered these questions. You really are not prepared. I guess I'm I'll start. You can think while I start. So um, my artistic heroes. I was not expecting this. Uh George C. Wolf.

[21:12] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[21:13] Joanne Zippel: Um, who is a brilliant writer, director, producer, uh artist who once you've worked with him, you are ruined for life. Like you're just ruined for life. Jennifer Kent and Jane Campion as filmmakers. Absolutely. Just powerful women telling powerful stories their own way. Gail Ann Hurd, because she produces all the big horror action alien terminator. Adore her.

[21:56] Tonya Pinkins: Jennifer Kent is amazing.

[21:56] Joanne Zippel: Jennifer Kent is amazing. Yeah. And I think that for me, like one of the things I often ask my students is to write a list of the people you want to work for. Because I do think in your consciousness, as you set that vision, then when projects come up, if you find out that they're any way peripherally associated with it, you're you're you're already setting a vision for getting in the room with those people. That's how I choose my work is who's in the room.

[22:22] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[22:22] Joanne Zippel: Absolutely. Who's in the room? Also, Paula Vogel is one of my heroes. I worked with her very early on in my career. And you know, she is just everything, you know, she her her work is so eloquent, but and funny, and everything that she does is just I've, you know, I've I would say she's one of my big big heroes. And also what she has done to open up doors for for artists, you know, amazing. Um, I mean, I think uh I mean, Naomi actually, Naomi McDougall Jones, I would say that she is an inspiration to a lot of people, you know.

[23:06] Joanne Zippel: Um, I um oh god, there's just uh I I mean last night I went to see um that production of West Side Story.

[23:17] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, yes.

[23:17] Joanne Zippel: Elon Vill definitely up on my list. Uh yeah, and the and the choreographer too. I I I just it was I was so moved by it.

[23:27] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I just was in the audaciousness of it. I loved it.

[23:30] Joanne Zippel: I mean, I I but I was viscerally and emotionally so touched by it.

[23:37] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[23:38] Joanne Zippel: Are there any other projects you want to tell us about?

[23:40] Joanne Zippel: Um, yes, I'm actually working on uh another feature that I'm working with a director by the name of um Kirsten Karl Hubert. It's her second feature. Uh, and it's a um it was written by Jack Bryant based on his family, uh, and it's called Rearview Mirrors, and it's about three generations of women in the rural south: a grandmother, a mother, and her um 15-year-old um biracial daughter, and the mother has she's bipolar, she's had a lot of issues, she's older, but she can't really take care of her kids. So the grandmother, who's a very um uh devout Christian woman, she takes care of the granddaughter, and the grandmother has a stroke, and the mother has to come back and take care of the mother and the daughter and and re-establish a relationship, and it is a beautiful, beautifully rendered story.

[24:45] Joanne Zippel: Three fantastic roles for actresses. But it's it's really about because the grandmother, once she has this stroke, she her personality changes, and all these secrets and things that happened in the past come back. And it is really ultimately a very uplifting story about being able to look at your past and and connect and forgive and find a way to forgive.

[25:12] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that sounds too much like my real life.

[25:17] Joanne Zippel: But it it's it's um it's real tour-to-force roles for actresses, and we're in the process of getting um, we have a casting director who's working on it.

[25:28] Joanne Zippel: I don't want to talk about it because I'm not sure. But as I'm waiting for my editor to finish, I'm working on my next horror movie, which will be my second feature, called Match. It's another socio-horror. It wouldn't be socio-political, but it's a horror film about the dangers of the dating world, and it involves a woman who is a complete Luddite and has no involvement in anything electronic, and then finds herself caught up in online dating and the nightmare that that takes her in.

[26:03] Tonya Pinkins: Um, what's an instance of you living in your vision?

[26:08] Joanne Zippel: Going to those events on the tour and seeing people. The vampires came out on the tour. It was everybody; it was a joyful vampire tour. So people came and they dressed in whatever made them feel joyful, not just vampires. Remember, these aren't like cutting me too. These are umpires.

[26:28] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, but they really do eat drink blood.

[26:33] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, they don't. Um, but what it was to see that movie and see people respond to that movie on the big screen, and people just, you know, that was truly living my vision.

[26:51] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I would say.

[26:55] Joanne Zippel: Um, I think a moment of me living in my vision was I had a moment on set where I had this sense that the thing that I most never wanted in my life and the thing that I most wanted in my life, I realized was I was making this movie; they were both intertwined. I never wanted to be a leader because I never wanted to lead anybody astray. Because I feel like every time I learn something, a few years later, I learn that it's much more than I thought. And so I always feel like I can't really tell anybody anything. I can tell you where I am right now because I know it's gonna change. And I always wanted a team, and I've always been in the room with the best of the best people, and whenever I've tried to make a team out of them, it just never has happened.

And I was standing there and I was like, oh my god, I have a team, and oh my god, this team is here because of my vision, my idea. I gotta trust that I'm not gonna lead them astray. Oh shit. So that was a moment of me living in my vision, surprisingly.

[27:55] Tonya Pinkins: Wonderful. If there were no barriers to entry, what is the one thing you would be doing?

[28:00] Joanne Zippel: Well, I would be making more movies for sure. I would be producing more movies. But, you know, because obviously it's a struggle to get the financing, you know, and I think that would be I would definitely be making more stories, and I'd be supporting more artists. I would be doing a lot more.

[28:25] Tonya Pinkins: I would say that's the same for me. No barriers, I would be making a feature film every year and probably a musical or a play every year. I would do both.

[28:35] Joanne Zippel: Right. Um, what's been the biggest obstacle in achieving your vision?

[28:40] Tonya Pinkins: I mean, I'm in a place now, particularly in terms of my work, where I feel that it's a really good place. You were saying about this, you know, as you get older, you just feel more empowered in what you're doing.

[29:02] Joanne Zippel: Uh, and I think that has been really good for me. So, in terms of obstacles, um, I think a lack of understanding, other people's lack of understanding. I mean, like for me, you know, um, and not being able to, I mean, you know, what's going on in the world right now. You know, obviously, there are people that there's fear, there's a lot of fear, and I think that is other people's fear and not wanting to do things or not being able to do things. Does that make sense?

[29:42] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[29:43] Joanne Zippel: And for me, I think the biggest obstacle for me that I'm just starting to see, because I think before I blamed it on myself, is the awareness that, and I don't care, but I think that there's something in the ether that says a woman who's in this body in this gender is not supposed to have the freedom and choices that I give myself, and so the world just can't bear that I give myself the choices and opportunities that I have and try to put up obstacles to me doing what I want to do.

[30:23] Tonya Pinkins: If you could let go of something that held you back, what would it be?

[30:23] Joanne Zippel: Well, I'm thinking about what it used to be, but I feel just letting allowing to let things happen and not put, you know, my judgment on it.

[30:57] Tonya Pinkins: For me, it would be my sugar addiction. I'm like, I'm a sugar addict. I think of it like alcoholism; I am a sugar addict.

[31:06] Joanne Zippel: Who do you admire most, living or dead?

[31:06] Tonya Pinkins: Well, my father was a pretty extraordinary guy. He passed away about a year and a half ago. I'm sorry, and he was a remarkable human being and just one of these people who reached out to people, and he was such a force in a loving way. He was kind and loving and strong, and he was someone who stood up for people. And he was a great role model for me and my brother, you know, and I still miss him.

[31:56] Joanne Zippel: For me, it would be Sister Morningstar, who is my soul sister. She's a Catholic hermitess nun who I've traveled the world with, setting up women's circles, and she was the midwife for my fourth child in Mexico.

[32:11] Tonya Pinkins: Oh wow. If you could be known or celebrated for one thing, what would it be?

[32:20] Joanne Zippel: Helping people to connect to their love and their strength.

[32:29] Tonya Pinkins: And for me, it would be that I was a good mother.

[32:34] Joanne Zippel: Guilty pleasure.

[32:38] Tonya Pinkins: Um, GT TV.

[32:40] Joanne Zippel: Um, watching those shows, you know.

[32:45] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, my guilty pleasure, my guilty pleasure, massage.

[32:51] Joanne Zippel: I don't think you should have guilt about that.

[32:54] Tonya Pinkins: I probably shouldn't have guilt about that.

[32:56] Joanne Zippel: If you could sit down with yourself 15 years ago, what would you say?

[33:03] Tonya Pinkins: You have the power; you are powerful. And you know, just let that happen.

[33:11] Joanne Zippel: I think I would say, don't marry him.

[33:17] Tonya Pinkins: Don't do it.

[33:19] Joanne Zippel: Where would you most like to live?

[33:22] Tonya Pinkins: That's a good question because I'm trying, I'm sort of going through a soul searching about that right now because I'm living currently in New Hope, Pennsylvania, which is beautiful.

[33:33] Joanne Zippel: I moved there for love.

[33:36] Tonya Pinkins: And is the love still going?

[33:37] Joanne Zippel: Yes, it is.

[33:38] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[33:39] Joanne Zippel: And now we're trying to figure out where else do we want to be?

[33:42] Tonya Pinkins: And there might be somewhere else I'm welcome.

[33:45] Joanne Zippel: Some place where it's warmer in the winter, but not all the time. Like I don't think I would want to be in just one place. You know. And I've been doing that search for the last few years, and I was thinking Bali, Mexico, Brazil, and I finally moved into an apartment in New York where for the first time in my life, I'm enjoying New York. I turned down Juilliard because it was in New York. I never wanted Chicago.

[34:12] Tonya Pinkins: Chicago.

[34:12] Joanne Zippel: Never wanted to live in New York. And for the first time in 40 years, I am enjoying New York.

[34:19] Tonya Pinkins: So very grateful for that.

[34:21] Joanne Zippel: What's your idea of success?

[34:26] Tonya Pinkins: Being able to do what my vision tells me, and to be able to connect with my family and be close and to connect with those I love.

[34:41] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, I'm with you on that.

[34:43] Tonya Pinkins: For me, having relationships that aren't just transactional.

[34:47] Joanne Zippel: Really connecting with people and being able to create.

[34:56] Tonya Pinkins: What's your happiness?

[34:57] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, I would say that's my happiness is, you know, being able to love the people around me.

[35:05] Tonya Pinkins: And these last two questions aren't from you; they're from me.

[35:08] Joanne Zippel: Okay.

[35:09] Tonya Pinkins: What is needed?

[35:14] Joanne Zippel: Well, I think our political leadership has failed us. And it's not where we should be looking to. I think we need to look to ourselves and to what we can as individuals do within our power to shape the world and to impact each other and be there because I don't think our politics, our politics are broken.

[35:50] Tonya Pinkins: Uh, and how can we, as you know, with all our strengths and our talents and our vision help create the world that we see and connect with others in the wherever we are.

[36:11] Joanne Zippel: And before we wrap up, is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted to talk about?

[36:16] Tonya Pinkins: Anything you wanted to ask me.

[36:18] Joanne Zippel: Wow, I mean, this was quite an experience. I think we've really covered a lot, a lot of ground, haven't we?

[36:31] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[36:32] Joanne Zippel: Everything from, you know, oneness to how to talk on social media.

[36:40] Tonya Pinkins: I think that's a lot.

[36:42] Joanne Zippel: This is really fun.

[36:43] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, thank you, Joanne.

[36:45] Joanne Zippel: It was so nice to connect with you.

[36:47] Tonya Pinkins: Connect with you. And I hope we will stay connected off platform.

[36:50] Joanne Zippel: Absolutely.

[36:51] Tonya Pinkins: I'm Tonya Pinkins, and you're listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the Show Where You Can on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[36:57] Joanne Zippel: Don't say no when you meet no.

[37:02] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT, the show Where You Can. I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, edited by Derek Gunther, with music by Cat Dail.

[37:20] If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream.

[37:28] Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins.

[37:33] And to learn more, visit BPN dot F M forward slash Y C S T.

[37:45] Stay safe. This is Tonya Pinkins.

[37:52] We gotta say one real for you.