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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I am making a commitment to you right now that I will not cry during this episode, and you are going to hold me to that. So, if I support you, I don't know if I support you bottling your emotions. You just look they cry. They need to be bottled sometimes. Especially on this podcast. I'm a bit of a weepy willow. All right, here we go.

[0:39] Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing BARE, a pop opera? A musical? Depends on who you talk to. I first received a listener request to cover this show back in 2022 from John in San Diego, and he wrote, quote, I would love a musical theatre podcast episode discussing BARE. There are at least two versions of BARE. BARE, a pop opera, seems to be the preferred version of the show within the fandom. Personally, I very much enjoyed the updated 2012 off-Broadway revisal of BARE, which became BARE the Musical, and starred Taylor Trench, Pree, Hello Dolly, and Dear Evan Hansen fame, unquote.

So then John and I went back and forth a couple times via email, hypothetically trying out different approaches to this show, because there's a lot of lore behind it at this point, and it's dark and it's tragic, and so like, I just didn't want to create an episode that was a bummer. Well, since then, two years later, we've received more requests, and especially on social media, and you know who swooped in to finally make it happen? Today's guest. She is currently on Broadway in one of the biggest hits of the season. Her show, Merrily We Roll Along, was just nominated for seven Tony Awards, in which she plays KT. She's of course done so many other amazing things, including performing in Carthay Circle.

I forgot about that. I was like, what's the including gonna be? Thanks for that parenthetical. That'll hopefully make three people out there laugh. Anyway, everyone, please welcome the glamorous, the talented, the only woman I know who has a closet dedicated to gowns, Natalie Wachen!

[2:35] Natalie Wachen: Thank you! My name is Natalie Wachen.

[2:40] Did you say Wachen?

[2:41] Yes.

[2:42] It's so funny, like, I've known you a long time, but when do I ever say your last name?

[2:46] No, yeah. A lot of people have known me for a long time and say Wachen. Yeah, but it doesn't bother me.

[2:53] Wachen!

[2:54] Wachen! There he is. There it is.

[2:55] Do you ever get walk-in?

[2:56] I get walk-in all the time. Yeah. And just a lot of questions.

[3:01] Natalie Wachen? And you're like, actually, yes, but without the questions.

[3:06] Right. I say little W, big Chen.

[3:08] Oh, that's cute.

[3:10] I like cute things like gowns. I did bring some to New York, too. I actually have way too many gowns for here and nowhere to wear them, really.

[3:19] Which is crazy because you've had so many red carpets. Let's talk about the Tony dress.

[3:24] What's the Tony gown?

[3:25] Oh, I don't know what I'm doing, but no one, like, I'm a very like, sequiny, old-fashioned person. I like an old-fashioned, jazzy gown that you could have seen 50 years ago.

[3:38] Pageant drag.

[3:39] Yeah, that's what I like. I like full-on Jessica Rabbit situation. High slits, sweetheart necks and just sparkle and shine. People here are cool. They wear cool things that are on sale now. Dresses from this year. So I don't know what I'm going to wear.

[3:58] Look, I love Gen Z, but they have really embraced ugly to a point that I find alarming.

[4:04] Right. Well, give me an example of what alarms you about Gen Z's ugly fashion.

[4:09] Well, no, just the fact that, like, ugly needs to be part of the it factor. Is it ill-fitting? Perfect. Is the color theory a disaster? Awesome.

[4:20] It's giving derelict.

[4:25] Exactly.

[4:26] How many people are going to get that?

[4:28] Well, I guess maybe as many people as got my Carthay Circle joke. Anyway.

[4:31] Zoolander the musical. That would be, I think that would work.

[4:34] It honestly would. Give it the Tony Award for costume design already.

[4:39] So speaking of, how are things over in Merrily We Roll Along? I mean, how long have you guys been going now?

[4:47] This time, so we started rehearsals in August of 2023 for the Broadway run, and then we had the off-Broadway run October through January 2022-23. One of our cast members did the Boston production. That was like pre-pandemic.

[5:07] Oh my gosh.

[5:07] And then, and the production's been around in England for over 10 years now.

[5:12] And fully filmed and everything.

[5:14] Yeah. I hope we get to do a pro shoot.

[5:16] That would be awesome. I had a friend who was there last weekend and just said you all were perfection.

[5:22] Oh, that's lovely. Thanks, friend.

[5:24] Jenna, she absolutely adored it.

[5:27] Now, I'm sure you all have had conversations about this, but why do you think it works now in 2024? Because we've all heard the stories, and anybody who wants to go back and listen to our Merrily episode, we talk about it extensively in terms of some of the decisions that were made in the original production that, you know, universally we can all agree were wrong. But, like, Maria Friedman, as brilliant as she is, I don't think that she single-handedly saved this piece for 2024. That's just my opinion. So do you think that we as an audience have changed as well?

[6:04] I do think, I think number one, audiences have definitely changed since those days. I also know that they, you know, they didn't have an out-of-town tryout. This show had a lot of, a lot of things.

[6:14] Fair enough, what we just said.

[6:16] Yeah, and I mean, our cast, first of all, Finding a Frank has got to be pretty rough. The character is not written to be likable at all. We have Jonathan Groff, who you can't hate. You couldn't hate him as King George in a musical where he's kind of the only bad guy, right? And Americans can get behind him there. He just has found a way to be very sympathetic in this lead role. And also, our cast is the right age to play these parts, I think.

[6:49] Amen.

[6:50] I think that makes a huge difference, not just because then the audience doesn't have to imagine 20-year-olds as 40 at the beginning of the show, but also because we've had experiences that we can draw from. And we know what it's like to wonder if that was the right choice, or to see where we are and try to go back and see, wait, where did I go wrong? Or where did I go right? And is this life salvageable? And that's something that we don't have to pretend about.

[7:16] Yeah, that's absolutely beautiful. And it's so thread throughout Sondheim's work, we just did a Follies episode, and that show's dripping with that as well.

[7:25] You say dripping as I wipe my nose, because it's allergy season.

[7:30] Thank you, Clareton. I'm on Zyrtec as well right now. Here's the thing. Merrily, and this is not an episode about Merrily, We Roll Along, but stick with me. It's hard to say that Merrily, We Roll Along was ahead of its time, because it's based on a play that was much older than the musical. However, I do think the audiences, thanks to Christopher Nolan, for example, are much more accustomed to experiencing a narrative with time jumps, with a mosaic type storytelling. And everybody has seen the superhero films where you go through a portal, and now you are suspending your disbelief. And so I think a modern day audience can get into a theater and not be as confused. I really do.

[8:19] I think so too. And I think we're okay with looking at tragedy right now for a little bit, especially if there's some hope in it. I talked to a friend who, actually, do you know Lance Roberts?

[8:33] Yes.

[8:34] From Theater Now. So he came to see the show. He actually gave me my equity card in San Diego when he was directing still, but now he's a big Broadway star. And he actually came to Merrily, We Roll Along three times in 1981, when it only ran for a couple weeks. And he just said that he saw people leaving in droves. He was there because he was 19, 20 years old. He had friends in the show. It was exciting. And he wanted to see everything. But he really didn't like it until it got to the end and he saw the joy. Sorry, spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen the show. And he just thought that if all the people who were walking out in droves could just see the end, then they would like the whole rest of it. And I think audiences back then needed some kind of joy to latch on to, or they were not invested. And I think there's enough joy in the actual people in our show that it is welcoming, and people do enjoy. They're ready for the ride.

[9:34] Yeah. That's so cool. And it seems like those three are just kind of magic together anyway.

[9:40] Oh, very magic.

[9:41] Here's why I go down that avenue is because Bear is a show that I do think was a little ahead of its time, especially when you see the types of shows that came after it. I mean, it's hard to look at the show and think, was this before or after Spring Awakening? And you realize, oh, it was before. And you're like, oh, dang. Well, then I guess Spring Awakening should thank Bear. And so I want to give some mad props to this show as we go through it, because there are things that are groundbreaking, to be perfectly frank, to borrow the name of one of your lead characters. So what is your relationship to Bear, and why are we talking about it today? Because it was your idea. I sent you a list, and you picked that one out.

[10:26] Well, you sent me a list, and then I sent you another list, and you're like, no, we can't do any of those ones. And I was like, well, out of these ones, the one that I have had the most connection to was Bear, because I saw the bootleg a long time ago, when YouTube was new. It was either the L.A. cast, or when the L.A. cast went to New York and did an off-Broadway production, I think. And then I also saw the 2012 revival, or I shouldn't say revival, revision.

[10:58] Revisal.

[10:59] Revisal. Because I had just done Rent with Taylor Trench. So some of us from the show went to see him in that. And we were at New World Stages, too, just on the stage down the hall. And I remember seeing the new version, and then not really being able to remember the old version. And I thought that was really interesting.

[11:24] Interesting. Okay.

[11:25] I just remember thinking, I don't remember this song. And wasn't there a moment when, and didn't the nun do, and wasn't there a phone call? Because I remember the phone call with the mom being a really moving moment for me. And that wasn't really in the 2012 version.

[11:43] In the new one.

[11:44] Right. But I had very different emotional reactions to each version. And I also saw them at different ages in my life. So I'm interested to hear more about it as we chat.

[11:57] I saw the show in L.A. They did it again in L.A., what, 2016, 17?

[12:04] Oh.

[12:04] Something like that. We have so many friends who were in it. It was Payson Lewis, and Lindsay Pierce, and Katie Stevens, and Calvin Remsburg directed it. And it was at the Hayworth. It was back when Calvin, who, by the way, everyone was in the original cast of freaking Sweeney Todd, for crying out loud.

[12:22] I didn't know that about Calvin Remsburg.

[12:25] Yes. If you watch Sweeney Todd with Angela Lansbury, he's playing the Beatle Bamford.

[12:31] Oh, he's such a Beatle. He was such a Beatle Bamford.

[12:34] Yeah.

[12:35] Oh my God. I just knew him as, you know, this voice teacher.

[12:38] Yeah.

[12:38] I didn't really think about him as a performer.

[12:40] Voice teacher in L.A.

[12:42] Wow.

[12:42] And for a while there in the 2000s, he was directing all of these shows that were unsuccessful in New York on Broadway, but he thought they're going to be hits in L.A. So we did Glory Days together. Derek Klena was in it with us. I mean, I was in it with Derek Klena, let's be honest. And then a couple of years later he did Bear and I went and saw it. It was my first time seeing the show and I was emotionally exhausted by the end of it.

[13:11] And that's honestly one of the first things I want to talk about with the original show, Bear, a pop opera. It is an opera for many reasons. Everyone tends to focus on the fact that it was through sung. There aren't like book scenes as in the musical version. But Bear the Pop Opera is an opera in the stakes of the emotions, the visceral nature of the score.

[13:36] Natalie Wachen: Operating at a 55 from a scale from 1 to 10. They're at 72. And it's a good two and a half hours of that. And by the end of it, I was done. For sure. Yes, it's very emotionally draining. A lot of angst. Like just being a teenager at all is angsty. And then you add private school and separation from your parents and family and this, these set of rules that you have to abide by that seem very strict. And then you add literal drama club on top of it and actual drugs. And, you know, pregnancy and adult drugs. Yes, all the biggest things you have the biggest feelings anyway, at that age. And so by the end of that, I was just really sad and drained. And impressed. And impressed 100% the voices just, oh my gosh, incredible.

I just got done working with a bunch of teenagers on High School Musical. And it was really fascinating to see them either look bored out of their minds, or operating on this, like sugar high, like it was either one or the other. And Bare does a really great job of musically representing that. These characters are sometimes depressed to the point of being comatose, sardonic to the point of barely having a pulse, and then also belting at the top of their lungs. I think emotionally that creates something that while it may not literally be true, feels true. And that's opera to me, when something maybe dramaturgically doesn't make sense, but emotionally feels right. That's opera. I'm like, yeah, this is really smart.

I like listening to you. I guess I'm supposed to also talk. To talk about the beginning of the show, we got to go back to what we got to talk about the creators, Damon Introbartolo, and John Hartmere, who I believe met in school. And both, because I guess they're LA guys, have a lot of TV film, or had a lot of TV film on their resumes. John Hartmere, actually, he ended up writing that movie with Kevin Hart, and oh, I'm forgetting the name of it. Kevin Hart and Brian Cranston, where Brian Cranston is in like a wheelchair, and Kevin Hart gets hired to like take care of him. Yes. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes, the something something. I can see the poster. It's like the breakup, but it's not the breakup.

It's like, yeah, the two words. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's like riding on the back of the wheelchair in the poster. Exactly, exactly. And then Damon was an orchestrator and music arranger for many, many, many a film, if you go back and look, and then was also composing his own stuff. They met and began working together and wanted to create a Romeo and Juliet type show for two boys. Now, at this point, John Hartmere is not out of the closet himself, which is fascinating. In fact, he says, this is a quote from him, I wasn't out yet when we started writing Bear. And for me, it was sort of a cathartic experience. I remember sitting with Damon early on and I was like, just so we're clear, I'm not gay. So we'll write the show about two boys falling in love. And I'll do my best to imagine what that's like.

[17:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, well, isn't that incredible?

[17:05] Natalie Wachen: It is. But also, I'll do my best to imagine what that's like.

[17:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[17:12] Natalie Wachen: First of all, when you do have to do that, like that's one of the great things about this business is putting yourself in other people's shoes. But I wonder for him, like, did he really have to imagine? Was he so far in the closet himself that he had never loved anybody or had a relationship at that point?

[17:28] Natalie Wachen: Yeah. I mean, I would, maybe projecting my own situation, I would imagine that he didn't want to let that come up.

[17:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm hmm.

[17:40] Natalie Wachen: And I think that as artists, we often use the stage to process a lot of things that as a tool, musical theater saved my life because I could get on stage and marry a girl in these traditional musicals and have my family come see it and I'd feel good about myself. Truly. And until I could figure myself out, I could play people that I wanted to be.

[18:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh.

[18:06] Natalie Wachen: You know? And that, I mean, that's just the truth. So I can imagine him, like you said, using empathy. You know, it takes the stakes out of it to be like, okay, I'm thinking of life through this person. And then ultimately that person that you created changes your life.

[18:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And also now I'm thinking about certain scenes that are two headers between Jason and Peter where you're writing both sides of an argument that you've had within yourself.

[18:35] Natalie Wachen: Oh, amen.

[18:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And having to put yourself all the way in the side of the person who was saying, no, don't tell anyone. And yes, it can be okay. And imagining what it is to believe and hope that it can be okay. And having that conversation with your mom or the priest who you know doesn't want to hear and wants to figure out how to love you, but doesn't because you don't know how they're going to react. You can't finish that conversation. Oh, I'm so curious. I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in that room. Yeah. To hear which parts came from which creator. And Bear, a pop opera, everybody has a voice. Which is funny that the last song is called No Voice because you hear from everybody in the show. The mom has a song. The nun has a song. Peter has a song. Like everybody has a song to kind of express what's going on. And I think that that is why it's called Bear. I mean, that's my hypothesis. What do you think? Why do you think it's? Why is it called Bear?

[19:28] Natalie Wachen: That's a great question. Because it's B-A-R-E. And I guess it's about secrets and not having them and being vulnerable and open and how scary the idea of that is. Especially when you're young. Yeah. I feel like in the 2012 version or 2012 musical, I should say, that feels to me to connect more with the title because of their use of the photos and text. Talk about that a little bit because it didn't get great reviews, unfortunately, but I think universally one of the most praised things was this cool set design that they had with the pictures. I should read the reviews. What did the bad reviews say?

[20:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What didn't they like?

[20:22] Natalie Wachen: I mean, unfortunately, like I said, Bear was written before Spring Awakening and then when they revised it, it was coming after Spring Awakening. And I think no matter what they tried to do, the comparisons were inevitable. Yeah. It felt less risque, less daring, and less original. And also more like a musical and less edgy. The first one was so much edgier.

[20:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Visceral, truly.

[20:49] Natalie Wachen: Yeah. But the 2012, that's the one that made me cry.

[20:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so sweet. Yeah. Okay. Sorry. Wait, what was the question you asked before I asked about the reviews?

[21:02] Natalie Wachen: Oh, how they did the yearbook photos almost. It was like a collage of the set, right?

[21:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. The whole set was covered in photos. And there was this through line about a photography assignment where people had to take a picture of themselves or have a portrait of themselves as they really were. And so I guess that feels a little like Bear also.

[21:25] Natalie Wachen: Totally. There was one scene where they were looking at photos and commenting on them. There was another scene where Peter had to take a picture of Jason and that's kind of where they had their first connection, their little romance. And then there's the picture at the end where they didn't realize they were in the background of a selfie and it gets shared and goes out to everyone and that moment feels really, really, really naked. As soon as that character hits send and you see that photo pop up all over the set that was already covered with a bunch of high school pictures, you just know that there's no hiding.

[22:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and that's a really great example of how they tried to bring the show someplace new and still managed to be honestly a little ahead of its time because the revisal was before Instagram, right? Or maybe, I think it was right around when Instagram was new.

[22:21] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, maybe. 2012. So like picture sharing was still kind of a new thing and now I feel like it's in every musical.

[22:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh yeah, I mean Evan Hansen's Tap, Tap, Tap on a Glass. Hello. Do you know how many times I heard that song before I realized it was thumbs tapping on a phone and windows on a computer? You can listen to my Dear Evan Hansen episode last year where I made the exact same expression. I was like, oh my gosh, is this absolutely brilliant and I totally missed it? The answer is yes. But also, yes, but also I, okay, so I first heard that song in tech rehearsal because I had reached out to Michael Greif just saying like I, you know, I'm interested in directing. Is there anything you're working on right now? I'm going to be in New York for a few weeks and he said, yeah. I love that you're like, yeah, I'm just going to reach out to Michael Greif by the way. He's so kind. That's a solid flex, Natalie. I'm not going to lie.

[23:16] Natalie Wachen: It's not so much a flex just as a, I don't know, a comment on how nice he is, I guess. And he was like, yeah, we're working on this new thing. It's very good. It's called Dear Evan Hansen. We did it in DC. And so I didn't see all the visuals of it, but they kept backing up and teching. And I probably heard it 20 times before then later in the show in just that little reprise where a character comes with her thumbs tap, tap, tapping. And I gasped out loud in the theater where I'd been sitting. And then of course, all the other parts come in and the windows are flipped and I'm like, oh, I get it. And that was, that felt so modern and new. And I love seeing that teamwork together. It's great to sit in on a tech rehearsal that you're not a real part of.

And just so you don't have like actual responsibility. I had to go and stand and be like a second team stand in the lights moment at times. But really I just got to watch a creative team who was collaborating all at the best of their games, the top of their games. It was fantastic. And we'll have to cut that out because it has nothing to do with Bear. Except that Taylor Trench did do that later.

[24:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But like, but here's the thing though, is that-

[24:33] Natalie Wachen: Oh, and Rent's a rock opera. And that's where I met Michael.

[24:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But also like the tech elements of the original, you then think of when Bear was originally written and like forget social media, phones weren't taking pictures yet. I remember I went on my mission. I came back. The two things that changed is I came back from my mission and everybody was listening to hip hop and everybody had a cell phone. Like somehow in the space of two years, that completely shifted.

[25:01] Natalie Wachen: What years were your mission?

[25:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 2000, 2002.

[25:05] Natalie Wachen: Okay. Where did you go?

[25:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was on the border of Texas and Mexico, Spanish speaking.

[25:09] Natalie Wachen: Oh my goodness. Okay.

[25:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which then brings us to religion. So did you grow up religious or did you go to a religious school or anything like that?

[25:16] Natalie Wachen: I did not go to religious school, but I did go to church a lot. Like every Sunday, Sunday school and grown up church and then going back for the evening service. Lots of Wednesday nights, choir. Yes. Lots of teen Friday night things. So it was a huge, religion was a huge, huge part of our lives growing up. Yeah. Home life.

[25:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Yeah. I mean, me too. The setting of the show is obviously a Catholic school and so religion is a big part of the show. I don't get the feeling that religion is the bad guy in this show. They make a point to have an ally within the educational structure that these kids are in. But the director, the original director, Kristen, and I'm going to screw up her last name too, Hangi, H-A-N-G-G-I. I'm sorry, girl. She said, Bear is about the definition of God as love and about erasing judgment, especially when we're young and we feel surrounded by judgment. And the only light and divinity that can be found is in love.

[26:29] Natalie Wachen: I love that. And she's the director of the original?

[26:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The original. So the original team was Damon and John, who were the writers, and then director Kristen. And they kind of saw it from workshops in LA all the way to off Broadway. It opens in Hollywood on Theater Row at the Hudson backstage, which of course is this, you know, small little theater that was part of Equity's 99-seat intimate theater agreement, blah, blah, blah. Mara Knowles. Do you know Mara from MTG?

[27:01] Natalie Wachen: From MTG.

[27:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She was the original mom. She was Claire in the original production.

[27:06] Natalie Wachen: Oh, I can 100% see that. I actually thought of her when I was watching and I thought, this would be good for her.

[27:13] Natalie Wachen: So I sent her an email to ask what she, like her thoughts on the show. And she wrote back, she was so sweet. She wrote, I still get chills thinking about the show and my emotions stir whenever I hear music from the show. It had a strong visceral pulse. That's that word coming up again, visceral. Kristen, John, Danny, Eric, and the entire cast and crew committed 100%. No one complained or phoned in a performance. If they did complain, I never heard about it. We were all proud to be part of this groundbreaking, life-changing show. And it runs for, I think, a year, which is unheard of in LA theater. It's a huge, huge monster hit, wins all of the Ovation Awards. It goes to New York eventually in the early 2000s and only lasts a couple of months before it closes.

But it was enough to create this huge fan base. And it almost reminds me of, like, Be More Chill. If this show had been 15 years later, all of the kids would have streamed the album immediately on their devices. They would have been sharing it online. It would have had a much bigger life. That being said, even without social media, even without this, like, life online, it does have a huge and really loyal fan base. Mara then went on to tell me in one of her emails that they did a 54 Below Reunion concert a few years back. And she says, I remember two men who approached me after the 54 Below Reunion concert who saw our original production over 10 times and told me how moved they were and the scene when Jason and Claire, my role, resonated with them when they came out versus when they tried numerous times to tell their mom beforehand.

Like, this show really connected with a specific generation of people, specifically gay men. Right. And so that's why I wonder, so you say if this came out 10 years later, it would have been different and maybe a bigger hit. Would it, though, because so much changed with visibility and with actual laws and getting closer to gay marriage being legal in more places, more gay representation in other shows, theater, film? Do you think maybe that's why the 2012 revisal didn't hit as hard?

[29:20] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. No, it's—because sometimes I think that's why our revival of Rent didn't hit as hard either. People, even people in the cast, weren't old enough to remember what it was like when AIDS was a death sentence. And when you, just life and death was more, it was so closely tied to that disease. And maybe there was just a little more freedom and comfort for people to be themselves in 2012 than there was in 2000. It's a perfect question, Natalie. You're exactly right. Because here's the thing about shame, and we learned this from Brené Brown, is that what shame needs to exist is silence and isolation. And I think that so much of the anger and angst of this show comes from that shame. When that starts to go away, when people start getting bare, it takes the wind out of the sails. And all of a sudden, 10 years later, you're like, why are you all so angry? And it's like, well, it's because the shame doesn't exist anymore to that level.

[30:47] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I think that's one reason why it helps that it's in a Catholic school is because that is a place where there are very specific rules and secrets, and you go and confess in a little dark room. But even in the 2012 revisal, you have a Jewish student there. So you know, like, I think that's a little clue as to like, yeah, I'm here. I don't believe all this. I'm here. But that doesn't mean that I ascribe to all of this stuff, just like the nun doesn't either.

[31:19] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, people can think for themselves.

[31:20] Natalie Wachen: Yeah. And in the first version, the kids don't talk about religion. They talk about regular kid stuff, but they're just living in this system.

[31:29] Jeff Parsons: But they talk about regular kid stuff with the heat of a gay man who's been persecuted.

[31:35] Natalie Wachen: Yeah.

[31:37] Jeff Parsons: Like, if teenagers actually speak this way, someone tell me because it is alarming. But once again, I think that it emotionally resonates with people who have dealt with shame for a long time and have no other way to express it than by just being super pissed off.

[31:54] Natalie Wachen: Yeah. And it's not just the gay characters either.

[31:57] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Oh, no.

[31:58] Natalie Wachen: There's just so much, so much anger, and kind of self-hatred in very many characters in the original version.

[32:06] Jeff Parsons: 100%. So it's not the end of the story with the original Bear, but that is the trajectory, is that it's a huge hit in LA. It goes to New York. It's not a huge hit. They do manage to create a studio recording that gets passed around and everybody loves. So then the landscape of Broadway changes and every show is about high school now, right?

[32:34] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, and all the scores are more pop and rock influenced.

[32:38] Jeff Parsons: Vary that. Okay, so then we go to 2012. Stafford Arima, who is the director of the new one, had just got done doing Carrie, which is kind of interesting that he took a show that everyone thought was unsuccessful about teenagers and tried to bring it into a current society. And did so pretty successfully. I think we do not think of Carrie now the same way that we did 20 years ago before that production. It is interesting though that his next production is doing this revisal of Bear. Now, here's a little bit of, it's a little bit of drama, but not really. It's just fact and it's in the New York Times if you want to go see it.

[33:20] Natalie Wachen: Facts can be dramatic.

[33:21] Jeff Parsons: Right? Yeah, fair enough. So Damon Intrabartolo, the composer, was not interested in redoing the show. John Hartmuir really wanted to, you know, work on making something new and current and relevant to a modern audience. And so Damon says, okay, go for it, but I just don't want to be a part of it. And truly, like, I don't know if there was any more heat behind it than that. So then John Hartmuir brings in a different composer to write new songs to go along with the old songs. Lynn Schenkel, who's a great composer.

[34:01] Natalie Wachen: Alterboys, right? And what else?

[34:03] Jeff Parsons: And she's also been an orchestrator. She's one of the few female orchestrators out there. She did, I think she did Allegiance.

[34:10] Natalie Wachen: Ooh, okay.

[34:12] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[34:12] Natalie Wachen: Cool things.

[34:13] Jeff Parsons: They come in and decide to turn Bear pop opera into Bear the musical. John creates scenes. A lot of things are the same, but a lot of stuff is different. It is a different show. I also reached out to another friend, Sarah Kappner, who was in the production, and I asked for her thoughts on it. And she said, I really loved my experience with Bear. I was lucky enough to be a part of the developmental process, and it is so unique and special to get to see a show through to the end. The readings of the show were super, super special, especially the second one I did. It was kind of a cross between the original version and what became the final edit of the revisal, and I honestly thought it was inspired.

The energy in the room was something very unique, not a dry eye in the house. It seems like it was quite a Frankenstein mammoth project to try and figure out how to respect what it always was and also make it into what they hoped would connect with an audience. Unfortunately, it doesn't. It's not the hit that everybody thought it would be. Sarah went on and said, it also taught me that no matter how much hype is around a production, it doesn't mean the end result is going to be a Broadway hit.

[35:32] Jeff Parsons: 100 percent.

[35:33] Natalie Wachen: There was so much buzz around this production internally and from the community that when it ended up kind of flopping, it was a really, really hard thing to accept. But I still had so much fun and made so many friends that I still have from this experience.

[35:47] Jeff Parsons: So it sounds like it was a net positive, but also very difficult because they thought that this was going to be huge. This was going to be a big thing. Unfortunately, the show doesn't make a cast recording because, I mean, obviously rights. Damon wasn't really interested in redoing the show, and I'm sure that he owned his music. So how do you record an album for a show where half the music belongs to somebody else? Right. And you're not having the money come in that you expected. So now there's this other expenditure to pay for those rights, even if he said yes, and funding all the power station, everything that needs to happen.

[36:29] Natalie Wachen: That's a shame. I really like the new music and I like the shout outs to the old music within it. A lot of the things they added were really fun. There was like a really great comedic song for Peter and what's her name?

[36:40] Jeff Parsons: You're talking about the best friend, the best friend song. Yes.

[36:46] Natalie Wachen: The best song is so cute. There isn't a lot of levity in the score. So it was fun to get a song like that. Even more tragically, though, than the show not working, is that the next year Damon Intrabartolo passes away. And that was due, I think, to an accidental overdose, from what I understand. Very sad. So there's just a lot of heaviness around the show, which is why I really wanted someone like you to talk to about it, because I worry that talking to somebody who is too close to it, it might be a little too painful.

[37:25] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I would imagine so, because it's sad enough for any of us. And it's because he wasn't even 40 yet, and it was just so unexpected. And he was working on things at the time.

[37:36] Jeff Parsons: It's very reminiscent to me of Jonathan Larson, if for no other reason than a lot of his stuff sounds like Jonathan Larson. Do you hear the influence there in Bear?

[37:48] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, for sure. It's very Rent-influenced. As someone who knows Rent so well.

[37:52] Jeff Parsons: And I do love Rent. But yeah, even just to have the guts to go through with a pop or rock opera, I think the fact that Rent existed and did so well made that easier for composers who relate to that music and want to tell stories that way.

[38:05] Natalie Wachen: So true. There's a classical tie-in right there, right? Rent is calling on La Boheme, and Bear is calling on Romeo and Juliet, you know, quite literally, because the kids at the school are doing a production of Romeo and Juliet. So it's a really complex web, this show. What we're going to do is we're going to talk briefly through the pop opera, because that's the one that's licensed. If you want to do a production of Bear, if you want to listen to a production of Bear, that's probably the one you're going to see. However, if you want to do your own deep dive and watch Bear the Musical, there's a slime tutorial for you somewhere.

[38:49] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, there are multiples. I think it's all the same night. But yeah, man, I remember seeing it. I saw it. I thought the performances were great. I was very touched. I was moved. And I also did leave there with a little more hope, as opposed to anger. Because the first one, it makes you sad and angry. And the second one has got a little light at the end of the tunnel, even though it still is very tragic. The first one, both the first act and the second act end so abruptly, it feels like they're purposely slapping you across the face.

[39:30] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I think that's the idea. I think it was a successful slap across the face. It's like, wake up, wake up. And I think people did need the wake-up call at that point. Now, the show begins with this song called Epiphany, which is really smart, because it's surrounding, is it the festival of the epiphany? And I don't know all of the Catholic traditions very well. But the priest at this Catholic school is talking about this particular time where you reflect and have messages from God, maybe your own personal revelation, or you at least talk about people who had revelations from God. And here's this kid named Peter in school, who's having his own epiphany, which is that he's gay. Also, I just remembered from my religious childhood, I didn't even remember that his name was Peter. But that's like, you know, it's a biblical name, and it means rock, right?

[40:18] Jeff Parsons: 100%.

[40:19] Natalie Wachen: So that's like the person that you lean on. And that's like, was Peter? Wait, now I'm going through. I'm like, was he a disciple? Or was he a different guy? Wait, Matthew, Mark, wait, those are the books of the Bible. Hold on. There were 12 disciples. Simon Peter. Is that a different Peter than Peter? Okay, so Peter, John, Philip, Thomas, Matthew, James, the son of Alpheus, Thaddeus, Simon, Judas, and Bartholomew. Okay.

[40:46] Jeff Parsons: I mean, if I remember correctly, Simon Barjona is given the name of Peter.

[40:50] Natalie Wachen: By Jesus, because upon this rock will I build my church? Yes, that's cool. I never—I didn't think of that watching the show any of the times I've seen it. Upon this rock I will build my church is what Jesus said about Peter, which is interesting when the main character is named that and is also the one who is in direct violation with the religious institution that he's attending. Right, you know, I believe that he is kind of set up to be a prophet in a way, to be a teacher to those around him. And it's one of the interesting things about the original production of BARE is that you think it's going to be Peter's because we start here with the epiphany and he's like imagining all of the—you know, in the way that we talked about with shame, he's imagining what people think about him for having these feelings and having these epiphanies, and it's all very judgmental and it's all very confrontational.

And so you think that it's going to be about his journey to acceptance, but he honestly gets to acceptance pretty early, and the story kind of gets hijacked by this other guy named Jason, who Peter just happens to be in love with. Now, I am in advance because Jason—Jesus—because he gets sacrificed, and Peter is the rock that we build the church on, which is actually love and not religion.

[42:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting, is that what this is? So it's also like a Christ's tale too? Like, I know it's Romeo and Juliet. I never thought of him as being like a sacrificial lamb, but I mean, it works.

[42:24] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, we've got our Judas character.

[42:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, okay.

[42:31] Natalie Wachen: Holy cow, I did not think about this, but you're right. I honestly, it's probably because I was distracted by how Anglo-Saxon these names are. If you give me three characters in a show—Peter, Jason, and Matt—and expect me to keep them all straight, so to speak, I'm gonna have a hard time. I appreciate that like the girls' names are a little bit more interesting. You got Ivy, you got Nadia. So like those are helpful for me, but oh my gosh. Okay, so Matthew is the one who has a crush on Ivy, is in love with Ivy. Is that who Matt? Yeah, okay. Mm-hmm. Okay, so yeah, so I could see Matt after this part of the story is over going on to spread the actual word. He seems to have learned something through this, right? Yeah, we got very sidetracked, but were we supposed to know this the whole time?

[43:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know. I didn't get it until this moment, but I'm grateful, and if that's what it was, it might be wrong, but that's why I love theater. Yeah, that's why I love having conversations. Look, Natalie, well done. You cracked it. You cracked it. BARE is actually Jesus Christ Superstar.

[43:39] Natalie Wachen: You know, Jason, he is like straight passing. He probably has an easier time, in quotes, going through the educational process in a way that Peter doesn't. Peter just kind of is who he is and can't help himself. But they have fallen in love if for no other reason than they're also roommates, and so there was definitely some experimentation going down in their little dorm room. And now they're like boyfriends living their best life in their room and then in school going out and trying to play it cool and play by the rules. Other characters we mentioned: Ivy. She's a new girl at school who is known as being quote-unquote easy. I mean, she's maybe the Mary Magdalene character if we want to go there with it.

Yeah, lots of people throwing stones, right? Lots of people trying to throw stones at this one. And then we've got Nadia, who is super anti—she's just like the emo girl who's also the sister of Jason, the all-American boy. Yes, and she's just thoroughly unimpressed by everything. Those are kind of—that's our main crew. And then at the school, you've got the father, the priest, and then Sister Chantel, who is a progressive nun. She's also the drama teacher.

[45:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, and it's really good at saying it like it is.

[45:07] Natalie Wachen: Yes. And we don't find out much about her actual life in the original production. In the new one, you got Missy Pyle freaking doing great work. I remember watching and being like, is that Missy Pyle from the movies? Like, who knew that the funny one from Galaxy Quest had a voice? And I love how they fleshed out that character too. But wait, we're not talking about that. We're talking about— we're not talking about that one. Peter has a mom who is just trying her best. She loves her son. They are besties, super close, and she tries to not let him get a word in edgewise because I think she is terrified that he's going to come out to her. And that is—that's kind of how their relationship goes, but I can see it being very relatable to a lot of people.

[46:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh yes, anyone who's ever tried to tell like the person who's supposed to be their guidance, their support, their comforter something that, you know, they don't want to hear. That's, I think, quite relatable for many situations, whether it's being gay or being pregnant. Ivy mentions calling her mother in a song towards the end too.

[46:23] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, yeah, that was really painful, and to see that mom just not want to know, yeah, it hurts.

[46:31] Natalie Wachen: So Sister Chantel is in charge of drama. She has a production of Romeo and Juliet. She's trying to get everybody to audition. Peter, of course, is auditioning because he is just as gay as the day is long, and he's trying to get his, you know, boyfriend, all-American jock Jason, to audition for it as well. Ultimately, he agrees because then it'll give them more time to hang out. Just so sweet. And Jason ends up getting Romeo, and Ivy, the new girl, gets Juliet.

[47:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hell hath no fury like a jock getting to be the lead of the show just walking in there with no experience, no theater nerdery.

[47:12] Natalie Wachen: Speak! I just got done doing High School Musical with these kids. Ryan has to be relegated to some like character role because Troy, the jock who sang at a karaoke party, shows up and takes everybody's roles. We're supposed to get behind that? Hates! Oh, but it'll sell. Teachers know. The teachers know it'll sell tickets. Upsetting, but I digress.

[47:38] Natalie Wachen: So he comes in and steals the lead. He steals the lead, and throughout this are some really great tunes. "You and I," which is a really very sexual number when you think of it, like in the early 2000s. There's a lot of mention of baseball bats. Very edgy, like you were saying. And then, of course, one of I think the most popular songs, "Role of a Lifetime," which was Peter's in the original and then was given to Jason in the revisal. But a really great song about questioning and playing your part and who am I versus who do I want people to see me as. It's a great tune. It still holds up.

[48:21] Natalie Wachen: As children do, they decide to go to a rave in the late '90s and early 2000s. They go to a rave. They have a lot of drugs. Peter and Jason let loose a little bit because of that because one of them takes drugs, but not the other. Is that right?

[48:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I think you're right. Peter—I think Peter's rolling. Yeah, Jason doesn't, and it's still a little standoffish.

[48:46] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, Jason's like, what are you doing? We're in public, and Peter's feeling good. But that is a little interaction that the Judas character—who I'm just gonna call him Judas—sees it, and now he has this ammo because he's jealous that Jason's playing Romeo opposite the girl that he really likes. I mean, it is—it's some soap opera drama going on here.

[49:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This section of the show makes me a little sad that I couldn't do high school drama.

[49:24] Natalie Wachen: Why couldn't you do high school drama?

[49:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's a whole other story. Well, we didn't have any musical theater at our school, but I was also like really sick during high school, so I couldn't—it's fine. I mean, I'm fine, but I couldn't go to school a lot and then had to test out. I graduated early, so I just didn't have a lot of class time and couldn't commit to any activities. But I would have loved to do like the school play. So even now, anytime I see like a school play thing, I'm like, oh, that seems fun, even though people were, you know, falling in love and getting pregnant and having secret sad romances.

[50:06] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I think we can call it like they're dealing with life and death, and I'm like, oh, I wish I could have been in a play.

[50:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But that's what I'm saying. Like, that's my high school experience. And I know that high school can feel that way, and maybe it is that way for some people, but I think the overwhelming majority, we have pretty boring childhoods with a lot of feelings on the inside.

[50:28] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I mean, if high school was like that high school, I don't think I would have survived. I wouldn't survive.

[50:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I'm still not as jaded as some of those high schoolers in this show, you know?

[50:41] Natalie Wachen: So much meanness.

[50:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So much. So catty.

[50:46] Natalie Wachen: Seeing "Happy Birthday, Bitch."

[50:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're a bitch. There's a lot of bitch.

[50:51] Natalie Wachen: Yeah, I mean, actually, I guess I still do know some people who are kind of like the people in "Happy Birthday, Bitch" with their friends, but I think that comes out of like drag race culture maybe even more so than anger and shame, but I don't know. Maybe not.

[51:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Here's the thing: that's kind of the main plot of BARE. Everything that we've set up here is the main plot of BARE, and then it's just filled with songs that explore the emotionality of all of those things and then the ultimate fallout of all of that stuff. Jason, our all-American hero, whether out of shame or maybe a true bisexual nature, ends up sleeping with his co-star, Juliette Ivy.

[51:37] Natalie Wachen: Ivy, I think, is thrilled to find somebody who's nice because she has, like some girls I've met, has used her sexuality as a way to feel close and taken care of, but usually with boys who aren't interested in loving or taking care of her, and she gets pregnant after one time, which is also like the teenage fear. Yeah, right? I mean, the greatest fear. So now not only is Jason trying to figure out his relationship with Peter, he's also finding out that he might be a father with this girl that he in no way loves to the point that he loves Peter, right? And they're at this place where they can't talk about it to anybody because they know what the answer would be.

[52:32] Natalie Wachen: You know, there's this moment when Jason goes to talk to the priest, and the priest basically says something like, I'm sorry, I'm not saying what you want me to say, but you should—you knew what I was going to say when you walked in here. Right? That's heartbreaking.

[52:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That, my dear friend Natalie, is the part of my life that I still have a little heat behind because I love my religion and I love what it has done for my relationship with God, but there have been some men who I have gone and trusted and talked to about stuff that made me mentally unwell, and I'm still trying to forgive them for it.

[53:14] Natalie Wachen: I'm so sorry.

[53:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, no, but like—thank you. Thank you. But this does happen, and I've set up really—like as an adult, I've set up some pretty strict boundaries with myself where if I have a priesthood leader who says, hey, you know, I'd love to chat with you, I'm very upfront. I say, what do you want to chat with me about? If it's about me being gay, we're not going to do that. If we want to get together and testify of our faith and share in that and pray together, would love to. If you want to ask me to help lead the choir, I'm down. But if you want to try to tell me something else, I can't do it anymore. I'm a grown-ass—

[54:00] Natalie Wachen: Because you go to church on a regular basis, right?

[54:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, every Sunday. It just depends on the congregation, and honestly here on Maui, they've been really wonderful. I think because it's a small island and you're not going to say no, don't come. We can get—

[54:26] Natalie Wachen: Well, one day and I can't remember if this was this year. I think it was this year. He got up in church on the Sunday where, like, anybody can get up to the microphone and share their feelings. And he goes, I'm just so grateful to stand here and say that I am leaving my sinful life behind and my heart just went, Oh no. And after church, I saw him and I was like, thank you for sharing today because I didn't want him to think that I judged him for what he said and that he was like condemning my life or whatever. Totally cool. Totally cool. Three weeks later, he completely left the church. Okay. And that's what happens. Like if I don't know if a priesthood leader, and I'm so sorry, this is like a huge, like detour that we've taken here, but if any leader sat him down in his moment of like insecurity and said, it's time to leave your sinful life behind.

This is what happens is that ultimately they don't know how to do that. And so they just leave and look for someplace that will accept them for who they are. Right. Now, if that's what you want, that's what you should keep doing. But man, it pissed me off. So as much as I'm not the hugest fan of Magical Negro characters in general, that the song God Don't Make No Trash still is a song that I hadn't really heard anything like that. And I think it's an important message. Do you feel like you had somebody who told you that? Or was that something that you just found in your own prayer life and your relationship with God?

[57:02] Natalie Wachen: Look, I did not have a mom like Peter when I, when I called and talked to her on the phone, she was amazing. It's huge. Love, love, love, nothing but love. And my family, like we don't always talk about everything because we're white. No, I'm just kidding. But, but, uh, but we don't, we don't talk about everything, but I have never questioned their love for me, which is a huge gift. That being said, I had to figure this out on my own. And you had to figure it out while going to a place every Sunday that, do you feel like you got more answers there or questions as far as self-acceptance?

[57:56] Natalie Wachen: Answers, but the hard way.

[57:58] Jeff Parsons: How does that work?

[58:00] Natalie Wachen: Uh, because it, it kept me from choosing sides. It kept me from demonizing one side against the other. And it made me go, do I feel like being at church as part of who I am? Yes. Do I feel like being gay as part of who I am? Yes. Well, if that's the case, then this is who I am. And if people have a problem with it, then like, it's not my, that's not my to deal with.

[58:26] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[58:27] Natalie Wachen: That would be theirs. It's their problem. It's not my Kuleana as we say here on Maui.

[58:31] Jeff Parsons: Wait, does Kuleana mean problem?

[58:33] Natalie Wachen: Kuleana means like your, it's kind of like your responsibility. Like, like it is your thing to deal with.

[58:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[58:40] Natalie Wachen: I have a friend who says not my pig, not my farm.

[58:43] Jeff Parsons: I love it.

[58:44] Natalie Wachen: You can chop that in there.

[58:46] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.

[58:47] Natalie Wachen: I love it. I love it. In the process of all these kids trying to figure stuff out on their own, tragedy happens in the worst possible way. Romeo and Juliet goes on. Uh, it's kind of like an opening night. All of the, the way that they musicalize Shakespeare in the, in the original show is beautiful. Loved it. Like truly it's some of the best Shakespeare put to music I've heard. Anyway, as we've mentioned before, drugs are plentiful at this school. So Jason, before going on stage, takes a bunch of something and ends up in his own tragedy, dying on stage in Peter's arms. This show lives at like 11 o'clock, heightened everything, everything is like the most important. I just feel like it's peak, peak, peak, peak, peak.

[59:42] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[59:43] Natalie Wachen: And it comes right after this, the sweetest song, which is called Bear, where they're talking, where they're like singing about how they first saw each other smile. This song is so sweet and is, is so beautiful.

[59:54] Jeff Parsons: Aww, that is huge.

[59:55] Natalie Wachen: Like we talk about representation of being very personal, that we see people on stage that look like us or that we look like someone, but then we actually are our real selves in that person before we meet them.

[1:00:05] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:00:06] Natalie Wachen: And, and, and you just love, and it actually, yeah, it's a codic. I love that.

[1:00:11] Jeff Parsons: Wilder than ever.

[1:00:12] Natalie Wachen: So do I. Fall in love with the same people we fall in love with. And then that gives us a sense of identity, but I don't think we talk enough about how representation can affect our relationships. You might actually be a better partner.

[1:00:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:00:28] Natalie Wachen: It affects our relationship with ourselves. It also introduces us into characters that we may not have related to, or we may not have met in the course of our regular daily life. And I think that's so huge. We think about representation as finding people like us on the stage or on the screen that we need to see. But I think it's just as important to find people who we think are not like us and then being able to find the things that we have in common with those, those human characters.

[1:00:56] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely.

[1:00:57] Natalie Wachen: Anyway, I just, I loved that this little moment of representation made me want to be a better person to the people I love, not just a better person for myself.

[1:01:06] Jeff Parsons: I love that. Is that because you saw some of your partner on the stage as well, or was it that you saw yourself?

[1:01:12] Natalie Wachen: I think I just recognized the feeling.

[1:01:15] Jeff Parsons: You know, that's gorgeous.

[1:01:16] Natalie Wachen: That's really beautiful. I think I just recognized the feeling.

[1:01:20] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:01:21] Natalie Wachen: Anyway, let's finish out the story and then we can talk maybe any more about certain numbers that you really love. But the end is Peter, the rock, going to the father, the priest, instead of it being an opportunity for Peter to confess, as it has been throughout the show, it's an opportunity for Peter in a way to allow the priest to confess because Peter goes in with the intention of you need to know what you've done. You need to accept your responsibility for the death of this boy who I loved and who helped me feel closer to God than I ever had before.

[1:01:58] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[1:01:59] Natalie Wachen: And who went to you for help.

[1:02:01] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:02:02] Natalie Wachen: And who went to you for help and what did you do? It's probably my favorite part of the show because it just gives so much wish fulfillment for anyone who's ever been in that position of power and has no good story for it. So to see the father get down on his knees and ask for forgiveness and Peter being the beautiful soul that he is forgives him.

[1:02:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:02:28] Natalie Wachen: Which is again why I think this is a Christ story.

[1:02:31] Jeff Parsons: What?

[1:02:32] Natalie Wachen: Okay. No, but forgiveness is the miracle. And I forgive you is a moment that hit me right in my chest.

[1:02:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:02:40] Natalie Wachen: Look, I'm still angry at those men, but I forgive them. They're not trained in my church. They're not trained to do half the stuff that they're asked to do. They're doing it for free. They're not getting paid. They're probably doing the best that they could based on the limited knowledge they have of what is possible between two boys.

[1:03:02] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[1:03:03] Natalie Wachen: And one of the rules I try to go by is just reminding myself in all things that most people are doing their best most of the time. Most people aren't out to hurt you or not give you what you need. They really are doing what they think is best. They're not the villain in their own story.

[1:03:24] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:03:25] Natalie Wachen: That priest feels like he has his hands tied. That mom feels like she has her hands tied. Whether or not we agree with that assessment of where they are in life, like that's really what they think.

[1:03:35] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:03:36] Natalie Wachen: They're not trying to hurt Jason or Peter, but they do. And we all hurt people while we're trying to do our best. So when Peter says that he forgives and he's just a kid who suffered the biggest loss of his life after not even being able to fully enjoy it in public, how he wanted to. So the fact that he finds that in him was probably the most moving moment of the show for me.

[1:04:05] Jeff Parsons: And what's interesting is that moment became the very last moment of the revisal. I think because they wanted to end it with a little bit of hope. In the original, that scene happens before the end song, which is called No Voice. And they sing this really haunting sort of choral sequence that doesn't have any resolve. And it's pretty devastating.

[1:04:29] Natalie Wachen: Yeah.

[1:04:30] Jeff Parsons: Devastating, but really did feel like it rang true. I'm sure to a lot of people. I remember seeing it in LA and at the end, once again, I was exhausted, but I heard people behind me go, wow. You know, have you ever, have you ever been in audiences where like they, they just can't help themselves?

[1:04:51] Natalie Wachen: Wow.

[1:04:52] Jeff Parsons: What other songs do we want to talk about before we, before we wrap up?

[1:04:56] Natalie Wachen: Um, Portrait of a Girl or not Portrait of a Girl. Uh, I'm All Grown Up. That one's a big.

[1:05:02] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:05:03] Natalie Wachen: Both of hers. But yeah, I'm All Grown Up. Huge.

[1:05:06] Jeff Parsons: Angsty.

[1:05:07] Natalie Wachen: Angsty. Huge, but that, and also just so relatable for every, every person who is in the middle of growing up. So many of these songs, even though they're dealing with huge things that hopefully most kids growing up don't have to deal with, um, the feelings that they're going through and expressing as they're dealing with these life and death situations are all very universal and accessible as far as the lyrics go, in my opinion, which I think is a really important thing when you're trying to make a statement and trying to tell a story that is scary to tell, or you're not sure everybody's going to relate to it. Somehow they found a way to make it very relatable.

[1:05:54] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:05:55] Natalie Wachen: That's a great, very, very universal. The lyrics are character appropriate. The, the people that they have built.

[1:08:03] Natalie Wachen: It will be interesting because whoever is in charge of Damon's Estates, I don't know if they'll ever be open to like allowing the 2012 version to be produced anywhere else, but it's got to feel great to have seen it live. You know, I always say in theater it's ephemeral and so when you get to see something and then realize that like nobody might ever get to see it again, that's got to feel pretty special. Like the workshop version your friend was talking about. Yeah. Like that is just going to be a special thing that only the people in that room will ever really know and that is wonderful. Even though I miss it, you know, we can't all have everything. Like that is the juicy stuff that is so cool about this ephemeral craft that we chose.

Amen. I wonder what the 2024 version of Bare would be if they made Bare now at a high school now. Well, I mean, being gay is so old news at this point. I think there would definitely have to be some sort of gender nonconformity to justify. Do you have to pick something else that there's more resistance to culturally? Yeah. I think that you got to find something that has some heat because the show just has a lot of heat. Yeah. I think maybe that's why 2012 didn't hit people as hard as they thought it would. It's because there wasn't as much heat around being gay. I mean, you have a pope right now who is blessing queer people left and right, you know. Doesn't mean that they condone anything, but they at least bless the human and that's very different than 2000.

The whole pope system is wild to me. Also, first pope, Peter. Hello. I mean, I'm not Catholic, but a Catholic friend told me that. Yeah, man, that's the whole idea is that the Catholic Church started with Peter, even though there were a couple hundred years where maybe go unaccounted for. Wait a minute. Religious texts aren't historically accurate. Hold on. Good times, man. Might religion just be people making up stories to figure it out like we do at work? No, just trying to figure it out. That's why I don't understand why religious people and theater people don't get along better. I'm like, y'all understand that we get dressed up and go to a nice building where we tell stories to help shed light on what it means to be alive and human.

And we're also all really judgmental. So we have everything in common. I mean, that's one of the places where I fell in love with musical theater because my church had a huge musical theater ministry, quote unquote. Oh, interesting. I no longer go to church, but I remember being so moved by the stories and by that medium when the stories were told. I remember crying in church about these dramas. It's like the stakes were so high. Were they original? Were they original stories? Oh, yeah. I remember there was this one where these people were in phone booths on the phone with God and they were like, you cramped my style was the main thing that they kept saying. They didn't want to go by any of the God rules because like, don't you understand?

You cramped my style. Then they hang up the phone, but then they go to hell. Oh, gosh. Those are some high stakes. My mom did this whole high stakes. My mom was on drama team at this religious college that she went to and they traveled the world and she played this character who was waiting in line in purgatory. And she was a nice lady, but she didn't believe the right things. So then she went to hell. That was the stakes. So I remember being so emotionally manipulated and moved in the, what do you call it? The sanctuary. Yeah. With these productions. These productions. The power of art. And then also the power of art and the power. When I named off the 12 Disciples just now, that's because it was set to a song that was drilled into my head when I was like three years old.

I can name all the disciples. I can recite all the books. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, and that. Yeah. You can remember the colors of the robe, I bet too. Hello. No, but it's true. Joseph's brothers, I didn't memorize their names till I was older, so it didn't stick as much as the Disciples. That's how I memorized all the books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Oh, yours is peppy. I memorized them in rap form. I mean, that's just because you're cooler than I am. Or because like Maranatha music or somebody thought they were cool at one point. It's like, what are the kids like? Rap? Oh, gosh. I don't even have to think of a tune for this one. Let's go. God bless those Texas churches that are doing Hamilton.

So, you know, like, teach Jesus. That was something. Those clips. Those clips were something. Something. I mean, had that happened at my church when I was those kids' age, I might have been in one of those productions. But thank goodness it wouldn't have been recorded. Well, see, here's the thing, Natalie. Growing up, we did like, okay, so the church is very organized. We got our little congregations, which are called wards. And then when you put so many wards together, they become a stake, right? S-T-A-K-E. Yes, I heard that. And we would do stake musical productions. We did The Sound of Music as a stake. And my dad played Captain Von Trapp and my mom played the piano. And I was free to add like Jesus or Joseph Smith.

No, no, we were respecting Rodgers and Hammerstein. That's also a religion. The religion of our age. Hello. But no, we were just doing just doing a show for like entertainment sake. It wasn't anything religious whatsoever. And people wonder why musical theater is so important to me. These are core memories that are also tied to the church. And the crazy people that were willing to donate their time to put on a full production of The Sound of Music. Make costumes, build sets. Absolutely. It was a community theater. The stake is the community, basically, right? So it was your community theater. And they were also, I mean, to be clear, these crazy people were also in charge of the community theater.

So like, very industrious people in Deseret. So you guys had a separate, so you had like the community theater, and then also the stake theater. And the same people were in charge putting on multiple productions. Yeah, well, I mean, there's only so many, like I said, there's only so many crazy creative people in my small town, but they wanted to make it happen. It's so sweet. I don't know. I don't think I would do that. I don't have the time to do that. I barely have the time to do my show. Yeah. I don't even have to do anything for it. And they're also ready to have your mind blown. They were also the drama teachers at the high school. Okay, I'm curious as to what the canon was. So they're doing like good old fashioned R&H at the stake.

What were the high school productions like? What were the community theater productions like? Were any more risque than others? Never. There was like a pretty solid rotation. If they do Seven Brides for Seven Brothers at the high school, then in two years, they're going to use those same costumes and do it at the community theater. Okay. And can those Seven Brides costumes be repurposed for say, I don't know, Carousel? Absolutely. 100%. Industrious. Yeah. Also, have you done a Seven Brides episode? No, because how on earth? How on earth do we discuss this plot? I've done that show so many times and never once did I think this is problematic until like, you know, the late 2000s. It's so bad. It's awful.

It's amazing what you can hide with a peppy tune. Natalie, thank you so much for doing this for me. Natalie Hua Chen. My pleasure. I'm just so grateful to chat with you. Thank you for making space to have this conversation. I'm so grateful I could trust you to have this conversation with me. Same. Back at you. Thank you for that. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget about Patreon! We're for only $1 a month. That's literally $12 a year. You can support the show and get a bonus episode and participate in our ongoing conversations after our episode's air. We also are on social media.

We're on Instagram and X and TikTok, so be sure to follow us. We also have our TeePublic store with amazing designs. The profits which we receive go to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. More than anything, I'm so grateful that you're all a part of this wonderful podcasting community. Hey, Natalie, how do we follow you? What you got going on? Besides eight shows a week. First, I would like to say that I appreciate that you gave voice to the exclamation point. Thank you. I could hear the exclaiming in your voice. I loved it. It was dramatic. God was right. I see the text. I interpret the text. You can follow me at happiestactress on Instagram. That's really the only social media that I use, although someone convinced me to start TikTok.

But you are such a good follow. Oh, thanks. You are such a good follow, though. You got great content. People love my stories, and they keep telling me that I should post them. But I have some, I don't know, I don't like static posts. But come in and get my unsolicited Broadway updates. The stories are fun. And yes, so I'm doing Merrily We Roll Along through July 7th. And then after that, who knows? But I've got an album coming out. We just recorded three of the songs last Monday. Oh, my gosh. So if you follow me, you'll get info on whenever that's going. Thanks. What's the vibe? Can you tell us? The vibe is me. It's called Love Always. Or it will be when it comes. Love Always, Natalie Watson.

And it's jazz with a Broadway influence or Broadway with a jazz influence, whichever way you want to look at it. Because that's how I am. Gorgeous. I think you'll like it. I'm so excited. And then I have, you can also follow the groups that I have. You can follow heatwave underscore entertainment and at the Noelle's. The Noelle's with the best wigs in town. The Noelle's. Best wigs in town. Thank you, Chanty for the wigs. I met Chanty at Disney and now she does hair for like fancy TV shows and movies, but she still makes time to do the Noelle's wigs. Oh, that's amazing. Chanty Hatch. Man, shout out Chanty. That's awesome. Yeah, but that's what's going on right now. You might see me on some cruise ships too, because I like to do that.

Oh, that's awesome. How cool. Natalie, you're the best. Enjoy this wonderful time on the Broadway. We love you and we'll see you soon, yeah? Thank you very much. I love you. Thank you for having me. Everybody out there, thank you for listening. And remember, God don't make no trash. Bye.