This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Michael Rupert: What the show was somehow able to tap into was a very universal sense of love, passion, loss, the complexities of true interaction and life amongst all people, straight or gay, no matter what their inclinations are, what they were born as, it doesn't matter. It's thought we've all been through so much of this.

[0:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing the musical FALSETTOS, which was a listener request from Day, who wrote in and said, it's an important musical and needs an episode, from Jake, who wrote in and said, I believe that it is such a clever show and goes under the radar for a lot of people, and from Elle, who said that it, she loves me, and the producers are some of her all-time favorite shows. So clearly FALSETTOS has been at the top of our listener request list. How cool then that our special guest today is the Tony winning actor who originated the role of Marvin on Broadway.

Side note, he was nominated for FALSETTOS. He won for Sweet Charity, but his history with this material goes so far back. I can't wait for you all to hear about it. He also originated the role of Professor Callahan in Legally Blonde. You're all lucky I'm not going to make him talk about The Happy Time for an hour and a half, because that's on his very large resume as well. Everyone, please welcome the Michael Rupert. Yay!

[1:57] Michael Rupert: Thanks, Jeff. Thanks for having me.

[2:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so grateful you're here. I think I want to just say right off the bat that I think this show is a masterpiece. I don't use that word very often, but in going back through it and seeing it feels fresh as a daisy to me. I don't know. I think I can use the M word on this one.

[2:20] Michael Rupert: Yeah, it's quite a show. It was quite a show when we did it. It still is quite a show. The reason that I was kind of so fascinated by it when we were doing it was, first of all, a lot of the things that FALSETTOS talked about had never been done in a musical before, certainly. For sure. It was so ahead of it, not ahead of its time, but it was just like what Bill Finn chose to write about. It just fascinated me. It really did and touched so many people that I thought, like, this is really special. I mean, there's something very special about this show. We didn't think that at the time. When we were first putting this show together, we didn't think that at all. If you want to, we can go back to the beginning.

[3:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, let's do it. By the way, I was remembering the first time I saw the artwork for FALSETTOS. I think it was probably maybe at a local CD store when I was little going through all the cast albums and seeing FALSETTOS. It was probably right up there with Five Guys Named Moe because of the F's. I was like, oh, this is a show. This is a review about Five Guys Named Moe and this is a review about singing in your falsetto. Truly, I didn't know the depth of the show. But for those who do know FALSETTOS and know it as we have it now, it was originally based on these three one-act musicals, two of which were put together and put into a full-length musical. If we can go back in time, which I think is around 1979 when William Finn writes IN TROUSERS, which is the first time we see in musical theater language these characters, the character of Marvin, and this trilogy known as the Marvin Trilogy really begins here. You're in New York. Did you know when IN TROUSERS came out? Did you hear about it at all?

[4:34] Michael Rupert: I had no idea what IN TROUSERS was. It didn't last very long, but it was special enough that Andre Bishop, who at the time ran Playwrights Horizon, just wanted to support Bill Finn's work. And it's interesting because Chip Zine, who played Mendel in the next two falsetto shows, or MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS and FALSETTO LAND, he originated the role of Marvin in IN TROUSERS.

[5:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: IN TROUSERS. Crazy.

[5:14] Michael Rupert: It was a tight-knit family. You guys stuck with the process.

[5:18] Michael Rupert: Yeah, several of us really did. But anyway, the point is that after IN TROUSERS, which again, was not a success, but Andre thought there was something very special about Bill's work, supported him, and Bill decided he wanted to continue the story of Marvin and Whizzer, who also was introduced in IN TROUSERS.

[5:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And is Trina as well, or just kind of...

[5:48] Michael Rupert: And Trina as well. Yeah, and Trina as well. So Bill, at Playwrights Horizon, they decided to produce this one-act musical. It was only like 80 minutes long, very short. And that's when I got involved with it. My agent called me up and said, they're doing this very kind of odd show.

[6:15] Michael Rupert: Quirky as hell, yeah.

[6:17] Michael Rupert: Yeah, very, very quirky. And James Lapine is going to direct it. And he would like you to audition for Bill Finn, you know, so Bill can see my work, or hear me sing. And at the time, the show was not called MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS. It was called THE PETTINESS OF MISOGYNY.

[6:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, wow. That's a real earworm.

[6:46] Michael Rupert: That was the original title, THE PETTINESS OF MISOGYNY.

[6:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I get it. It makes sense.

[6:52] Michael Rupert: Yeah, in a way, it does. So I went with Jim, and we picked out the kind of material from my book that I, you know, the songs I knew, and we picked up the kind of stuff that Bill Finn would like to hear. Because Bill was a very, very picky guy at the time. I mean, literally, like, if someone came in to audition for him, and sang a song by a writer that he didn't like, Bill would actually get up and like storm out of the room.

[7:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh.

[7:31] Michael Rupert: I mean, Bill was not... Bill was an interesting character at the time, believe me.

[7:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So warm and fuzzy is what you're telling me.

[7:39] Michael Rupert: So warm and fuzzy, yeah.

[7:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so that means you knew Lapine then? You knew James Lapine prior to this?

[7:47] Michael Rupert: I had only met James, but I had never worked with him, you know, because he was just starting out as a director. He had directed a play right before this, but...

[8:00] Michael Rupert: This is early 80s now. IN TROUSERS 79, MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS 81.

[8:05] Michael Rupert: This is like 1980. God, I can't believe it's that long ago. That's just amazing. But anyway, I auditioned for, you know, for Bill, and they decided to cast me as Marvin in this show called The Pettiness of Misogyny, which quickly, that title was quickly trashed. And then the next title was Four Jews in a Room Bitching, which is the title of the first song. And then James Lapine decided that he didn't want to direct a show called Four Jews in a Room Bitching. So finally, they came up with MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS, which ultimately then, once the story continued in 1989, 1990, with FALSETTO LAND, MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS was the first act of the show FALSETTOS. And like I say, you know, I think that now looking back on it, you know, and how having spent literally like 12 years of my life on and off playing Marvin.

At the time, I didn't really appreciate Bill's work that much. In fact, Lapine even gave me the album of IN TROUSERS to listen to. And I said, and I called Jim up and I said, what the hell is this? This is like weird, weird, shitty music. I just didn't get it. You know?

[9:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's all over the place. I mean,

[9:41] Michael Rupert: you're right. Totally. Ultimately, now I've learned to appreciate it, you know, for sure. But at the time, I thought like, I don't get this at all.

[9:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's interesting. He reads, and I'm gonna, I don't know Mr. William Finn personally, but I'm going to guess he's a little neurotic, because not because he's a little, because the music is a perfect match for those lyrics. I mean, it's neurotic on neurotic.

[10:15] Michael Rupert: Now, let's talk about him, because we haven't discussed William Finn since I think Spelling Bee, when we did an episode on Spelling Bee a while back. What are kind of the hallmarks of his work? Do you think I know that it tends to be autobiographical, though he said that FALSETTOS, like the whole world of FALSETTOS isn't nearly as autobiographical as I think people assume it to be.

[10:34] Michael Rupert: Yeah, it really isn't autobiographical. I mean, Bill is right. You know, there are certain traits that Marvin has, that Bill has, you know. So he wrote, in fact, Bill really kind of wrote the show for himself in a way, you know. He always saw himself as Marvin.

[11:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting.

[11:01] Michael Rupert: And so there are things about Bill. That's got to be interesting for you.

[11:05] Michael Rupert: Well, initially, I got to be honest with you, Jeff. Initially, it was, again, this is a long time ago. And let's just be very clear that Bill has, as a human being, has grown and matured over many years now. But at the time, you know, he was at times very difficult to be around, because he was, he heard stuff in his head that when he would try to explain them, you know, explain those things, he couldn't, you know. It just made no sense. And then there were times in a rehearsal, and we were rehearsing in a, when we were doing MARCH OF THE FALSETTOS, the first show, the first act, we were rehearsing in a very small rehearsal space upstairs at the old Playwrights Horizon before it was renovated.

And Bill would literally be like, three feet away from me while I was rehearsing stuff. And he would be reacting like, this guy is the worst actor I've ever seen in my life. Literally, he would like, sorry. No, it is what it is. You know, but he would like, he would like moan and groan and make noises. And I finally had to take Lapine aside. And I said, you know what? We're now at the point where it's either me or him. One of us is going to be in this rehearsal.

[12:32] Michael Rupert: It's going to be me either me or Bill because he's making my life nuts and Jim, who at the time, and it's always been a very non-confrontational kind of guy, you know, he would kind of sit in the back and just let this happen, you know, for some reason. But to Jim's credit, he finally, you know, said to Bill, "Rupert's going to be fine. You really need to leave him alone." And you go away and then you come back, you know, like late in the day and we'll run through a couple scenes for you. You can see what we're doing and, you know, and we'll have a no session like grown-ups, right? Exactly, we'll really do this like people are supposed to do in theater. Like I say, over the years, Bill, it's amazing how maybe with March of the Falsettos and Falsetto Land, when they both opened independently off-Broadway and then when Falsettos combined them and opened on Broadway, all three times the shows were quite a success, really critically.

You know, Bill was really praised by the critics and lauded by the audiences too, you know, so I think with that kind of approval and that kind of affirmation, Bill started to mellow out more. And like I say, he's a very different person today than he was all those years ago.

[14:09] Michael Rupert: Well, and then you look at A New Brain, which certainly is autobiographical and it has to do with, you know, his brain condition that he had diagnosed and luckily survived. I mean, that's got to change a person as well, so that's cool to hear that that has all happened. I found a quote here from him talking about James Lapine. It seems that maybe Lapine has always been a very, like, a source of not only inspiration but comfort to him. He said, "James was so much fun, so focused, so fertile. He has so many ideas. When I get stuck—and often I get stuck—he goes, 'What about this? What about this? What about this?' I'm completely in awe of him."

[15:04] Michael Rupert: Yeah, it seems like they had a good working relationship because again, Bill had all of these songs and these melodies and these words bouncing around in his head, and it was really Jim, who was a playwright, who really was able to bring them together to kind of make sense. Jim even had a big cork board up in the rehearsal room, you know, with three-by-five cards on it, and there was the title of each song, you know, just pinned to the board. And every once in a while, Jim would then put a blank card like between two songs saying, "This is the song we need here, and it should be about this." So what Jim did is really, with both March of the Falsettos and Falsetto Land, you know, he really was the playwright. I mean, he basically told Bill or helped Bill understand what he needed to write so that it would be a coherent story.

[16:10] Michael Rupert: Well, it's incredible how cohesive these works are despite having a rather non-traditional structure. There are no traditional book scenes, and yet it doesn't just feel like vignettes; it feels really cohesive.

[16:26] Michael Rupert: Well, yeah, because it somehow all ends up adding up to something, you know? And you're right, I mean, it's almost like it's just these moments in the lives of all of these characters, and the way Lapine has kind of structured them and put them together as Bill has written them, suddenly by the end of it, you get a very clear, I think, picture of this whole moment—these moments in time with these particular people. And one of the most impressive things about Bill Finn's writing, I think, and this is what I came to appreciate as an actor working on the shows, is—and I don't know if you've ever noticed this or any of your listeners have— with his words, Bill can sometimes say the most profound things with the simplest of language. He uses very, sometimes very mundane language, and then suddenly you go like, "Oh my God, that really makes sense," or "That really is touching," or "It's really moving," or "I never thought you could say it that way," you know?

[17:50] Michael Rupert: Yeah, near the end of Falsettos, near the end of the last—the end of the first time—oh, the end of the whole thing, the entire show, at the end of Falsetto Land when, you know, spoiler alert for those that don't know, when Whizzer has gotten sick and is going off to die, what is the first thing that—and this again is how Bill thinks—what would be the first thing that Marvin would say? It's, "What would I do if I had not met you? Who would I blame my life on?" You know, I mean, it's like—and that's sometimes what sometimes death or separation or passing does to people. It makes them—the first thing they do is think about me. What about me? What have you done to me? You know, that happened. That's a cliché almost, but an Oscar Hammerstein or maybe another writer of lyrics would not necessarily go there, you know?

[18:51] Michael Rupert: And the other thing that's really fascinating too is, again, I know I'm going on here a little bit, don't mean to, but please, please, his work—Bill at times could be so grating and kind of seemingly all out there and nuts and like not focused, and then he would come up with a song like "Four Unlikely Lovers." And the first time the four of us heard that song and started singing it, I remember, you know, Chip Zine, who was not in the number, but Chip turned to me, you know, or whispered to me, "How can someone—and these are Chip's words—how can someone like Bill, who can be so gross, write such beautiful music? Where does this beauty come out of him?" You know? Wow, and it's—he's a—Bill Finn is a completely fascinating person.

[19:55] Michael Rupert: Wow, that's incredible. Well, I was going through the show again last night, and I was amazed at the character development throughout the piece. There are so few pieces that have the complexity of character that Falsettos has, and Falsettos has no dialogue. The nuance of, like what you're saying, the nuance of being in mourning and being selfish, the nuance of being in love and being jealous, the nuance of loving someone and hating someone, it makes for this gorgeous tapestry that I guess has come from a mind that is maybe just as complex and nuanced.

[20:39] Michael Rupert: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. The thing is about, you know, here's the thing with—and you probably know this—with so much musical theater, an actor can spend a lot of time figuring out how to make the characters and the songs work so that the audiences understand them or can get the story. Because the truth of the matter is, historically in musical theater, there's not been a lot of nuance. No, certainly in early musical theater, you know, it was like, "I love you, you dance, I love you." It's all in absolutely, you know? So like half the time, as an actor, you'd be figuring out, "Okay, how do I deliver this line or this lyric so the audience is going to get it?" The thing about that I found with Bill's work and Falsettos is you really didn't have to do anything but sing the songs, literally.

You didn't have to do anything but say his words. There were very few things—yeah, sure, we all acted them, we all got into character, we worked with Jim Lapine on the characters and everything else, but the truth of the matter is Bill's writing was so nuanced and so complex that we didn't really have to do much other than just, you know, just say the words. And Lapine even, you know, would tell us that sometimes in rehearsal, you know, just don't do anything. You don't need to do anything. Just be there. All you have to do is be there and let the words do the work, you know?

[22:25] Michael Rupert: That's amazing. Let's talk a little bit about the time in which it came out. So early '80s when March of the Falsettos comes out, and you're an actor, are you thinking, "Oh wow, complex queer issues have finally entered the conversation in musical theater," or is it, "Well, a good thing we're doing this off-Broadway because Broadway could never handle it," or, you know, like what do you—what's the conversation around these particular themes that are found in the first act?

[23:03] Michael Rupert: Well, I don't think we really thought about it too much other than, you know, because the truth of the matter is when March of the Falsettos started, it started in a theater off-off-Broadway that seated about 90 people. We were in this little tiny theater in this little tiny space. None of us had any great expectations for it, you know? None of the actors, at least. Sure, sure, you're not getting a big paycheck for this 90-seat.

[23:29] Michael Rupert: No, I mean, we were making—we were literally making peanuts, you know? But as Jim Lapine kept saying to us at the time, "There are gay people in this play. There are queer people in this play, but it's not a gay play. Okay? This is a story about family." And so we're not going to play into any kind of—not stereotypes, but any maybe preconceived ideas that people have about the fact that Marvin has left his wife and his child for another man. When Marvin and Whizzer fight, argue, love in March of the Falsettos, they do it the same way a man or a woman could do, you know, a heterosexual couple would. Yeah, the only kind of a blatant joke about the whole gay thing is Jason's song, you know? Yeah, when he goes, "My father's a homo, my mother's not thrilled at all," you know, which in the theater got an enormous laugh—enormous laugh, you know?

But again, we didn't really think about it. We didn't—it just didn't quite dawn on us that, "Oh, this is touching on things maybe that have never been touched on in musical theater." We only kind of felt that a little later on when Falsetto Land came along and we were then smack dab in the AIDS crisis, and Falsetto Land addressed the beginning.

[25:04] Michael Rupert: Of the early days of the AIDS epidemic. And again, you know, none of us really thought too much about, oh, there are queer identities in this show. And how do we play that? You know, it was it's a story, as Jim kept saying, it's a story about family. I can. Well, I completely agree, because you look at the big, I mean, the big hits of the 80s, as we always say, were a lot of the mega musicals, the British imports and the musicals that have stood the test of time that really were about family in that decade were from the gays, La Cage and Falsettos. You know, these were two shows that were exploring family in almost a traditional way. And yet the characters just happened to be, you know, queer in their own way.

Certainly with La Cage. I mean, Jerry Herman and Harvey, they wrote a very traditional show, very traditional. Talk about like book musical. Yeah, a true book musical with Bill. You know, of course, he wrote this series of songs that became a story that were neurotic and crazy and angry and with people yelling and screaming at each other and loving and making up and breaking up and everything else. You know, it was kind of fascinating. And like you say, it was truly for a musical to have such nuanced and complex characters. Think of roles in musical theater for a 12-year-old kid, you know, and how often would they play a role as complex as the role of Jason in March of the Falsettos? You know, I always thought like, wow.

Yeah, this isn't Winthrop from Music Man. No, no. I mean, no, no fault against Music Man. But yeah, no, no. But when you look at what Jason is dealing with, you know, in the Falsettos musicals, it's pretty amazing. So then we go to Falsetto Land, which now there's about nine years in between the two, nine or 10 years in terms of the writing, in terms of the time that has passed within the structure of the show. It's not that much. No, it's only just a year later, really. So then in within that decade, are you hearing rumors of he's not done with these characters? Bill wants to keep writing. Yeah, absolutely. Are you working on workshops for anything? Oh, yeah, we did. We actually first did a workshop of Falsetto Land, I think in 1987, maybe.

OK, so really, really only about, you know, six years after we had done the show off-Broadway, the first show. We actually did two different workshops of Falsetto Land before it actually went into production to do to the actual production. So there was about, like I said, there was about six years. I think between March of the Falsettos and where we first got the material for Falsetto Land, but it didn't really open until 1990. I think I think 1990. Yeah, that's what that's what my stuff says. But yeah, I trust you. Well, I tend to forget now. It's a long time ago.

[28:40] Michael Rupert: So Falsetto Land comes about. Is it met with more anticipation because people have found March of the Falsettos through cast albums or kind of the grapevine? No, it definitely. You know, people were very interested to see what Bill had done next. Where was the story going to go? And he really didn't disappoint. You know, the only thing is he knew that when he continued the story, he was going to have to address the AIDS epidemic, the AIDS crisis. But he didn't want the story to be so far along like in like it was in real years. You know, we were right in the middle of it. What interested Bill so much was, again, the very beginnings of the AIDS epidemic. Something bad is happening. Something bad is happening. You know, men come to the doctor to get enlightened and they leave frightened, you know, and they're frightened. You know, because nobody knew at the time, you know, at the beginning of the 80s, no one knew what was going on.

[29:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How was that for you? Do you mind me asking?

[29:56] Michael Rupert: It was frightening. I mean, the whole thing was because, again, nobody knew why people were getting sick. You know, I was unbelievably fortunate being in theater in my world that, you know, I really only knew maybe a handful of people that really did get sick and die because I knew people who knew people who literally had 20 people die that they knew. So it was but it was it was a really frightening time just to be around.

[30:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The way that the show explores that piece of our history. I don't know. It's really great. I when you look at it compared to maybe Rent. Yeah. Sometimes we say, oh, Rent isn't as powerful anymore because we don't remember what AIDS was like. Right. And to a certain degree, I kind of believe that in terms of the angst of that show. The way that Falsettos approaches it with. Not knowing just, I guess, simply not knowing. Right. Ignorance of it all. Right. Right. Makes it somehow evergreen for me. I feel very deeply.

[31:25] Michael Rupert: Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is, again, with Falsettos is that it unlike Rent that was written and produced to kind of portray the AIDS epidemic, you know, at full steam, you know, like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At the height. Like, thank you. No, I know. At the height and Falsettos. The disease that Whizzer has is never named in Falsettos. It's just this thing, this thing that's killing him. And as the doctor says, is making young men sick. This sounds really weird, but it's almost more poetic. It sure makes sense. You know what I mean? Absolutely. Absolutely. So it's very different than something like Rent, of course, which is great, you know, but brilliant on its own. Very, very different.

[32:24] Michael Rupert: So then in 1992, the March of the Falsettos and Falsetto Land get put together as one act to act. It becomes Falsettos. It opens on Broadway. Right. Right. And guess who's back is Marvin. So at this point, you've won your Tony right for Sweet Charity. That was in the mid-eighties. So how are you feeling going into a Broadway fruition of this like decades-long experience?

[33:00] Michael Rupert: I did to do it. I certainly was, you know, and at the time, I thought, well, what better thing to do than to put these, you know, be a part of putting these two musicals together and doing them on Broadway? I thought it was great. Interesting. You know, the Broadway production was not the first time those two shows had been put together. Really? I didn't know that. They were first. And in fact, this is kind of how the whole Broadway thing happened is the director, choreographer Graciela Daniel. Of course. Right. Yeah, absolutely. Grazi had staged a production at the Hartford Stage Company up in Hartford, Connecticut of March of the Falsettos and Falsetto Land as one evening. She was the first person to do this. You know what? And that's incredible.

[34:48] Michael Rupert: Yeah. And there was a moment where it was very possible that Graciela Daniel's production from Hartford Stage was going to go to Broadway. Oh, wow. They were going to move that to Broadway. But Grazi didn't really have time to rethink the show because she was busy doing other stuff, because the Hartford Stage is very much like, say, the Vivian Beaumont Theater. You know, it's a thrust stage with the audience three quarter around. And so the show was going to have to go into a proscenium house on Broadway. And she didn't have time to totally rethink the production for that. Wow. So James Lapine also at the time was calling the producers saying, well, first of all, I love Grazi. And I thought her production was brilliant up in Hartford. But we should be you should be producing our version on Broadway.

[35:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough. Fair enough.

[35:47] Michael Rupert: Yeah, absolutely. So that's kind of really how it came to be on Broadway. You all open. It's a big old hit. I mean, you could not have received a better review from Frank Rich, the quote unquote butcher of Broadway. Just beautiful reviews when it's come. It's a really fascinating Broadway season. You've got the little gem of Falsettos right up next to a huge show like Crazy for You, a big, splashy, old-fashioned Broadway hit, which is also right next to Jelly's Last Jam, a really interesting moment in history unto itself. Everybody kind of wins awards that night. Falsettos wins best book and best score. But the big prize ends up going to the big, splashy, Crazy for You. How was that night for you all?

[36:42] Michael Rupert: It's exciting. It was fun. The interesting thing about being nominated for a Tony, just for speaking for myself and kind of going to the Tonys kind of pretty sure you're not going to win is kind of makes it even more fun. You know, because it's like, yeah, totally. Like, you know, I don't have to get up and give a speech now because the truth is, just for myself, I thought I had already won a Tony. Gregory Hines, the late Gregory Hines, who was such a genius, was so brilliant in Jelly's Last Jam that I was pretty certain that, you know, he's going to win. He's he deserves probably his turn. Yeah, he's never won a Tony before. He's he deserves it for this show. We all actually had a little tiny thought that Falsettos maybe could take the Tony for best musical because it's so unique.

It's so different, you know, and Crazy for You, as good as it was. And I loved Crazy for You was just yet a big, splashy Broadway musical, traditional and everything else with the Gershwin songs interplotted.

[37:56] Michael Rupert: And exactly. But I also, you know, talking to one of our producers, he said to me, you know, well, the Tonys are very are very political in some ways. And it's a game and it's a business there. It's a game, you know, and Crazy for You is going to tour a lot and make a lot of money for the tour people who vote for Tonys. And so, you know, so Barry said, don't be shocked if we don't win the Tony for best musical. He said, I'm not going to be shocked. But I'm glad that Bill and James won best book. Yeah. And Bill won best score, which they totally deserve.

[37:36] Michael Rupert: It was a thrill that Barbara Walsh and Jonathan Kaplan both were nominated. I thought that was brilliant, along with me. But it still was an incredibly fun evening. We had a wonderful time. That's wonderful.

[37:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let's take some time now to go through the show, because I want to hear your thoughts on the characters and some of these numbers. Obviously, there's so much music, we're not going to hit every number in the show. That would just take way too much time. But I would love to hear your thoughts on some of these people because, like we've said, they're so nuanced and they're fascinating characters. Let's begin with Marvin. You obviously know him very well. A protagonist who, I'm really impressed, isn't worried about being likable. I mean, he's chosen to leave his family. At one point, he hits his ex-wife. He's constantly bickering with his new lover as a way to say, I love you. He's almost entitled, in a way. He feels like whoever he's with, whether it's a boy or a girl, a man or a woman, should basically do whatever they need to in order to please him.

[39:02] Michael Rupert: Well, yeah. It's an interesting character. Marvin's an interesting guy. The trick that James Lapine kept saying to me, and maybe he obviously saw that when he asked me to do the show, saw this in me. Marvin is a very selfish, narcissistic guy in a lot of ways.

[39:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Great word.

[39:17] Michael Rupert: But he's... Because he says right at the very beginning of the first show, he says things about how he wants it all. He wants it all. He wants his wife and lover and child all to love him and they all should have dinner together. He just wants it all, a tight-knit family. But Jim said the trick is, in the performance, we also have to see why do all of these people really love him? Why are they attracted to Marvin? Why do they even put up with him? Why do they want to be with him? Oddly enough, we kept finding these moments where Marvin was actually could be very charming. He could turn right around from being a real jerk to being this kind of wonderful person. And he had... All of these characters, of course, had incredible passion. The thrill of first love. There's such passion in the writing. But that's the thing about Marvin, is he was basically just a charming jerk.

[40:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're right, though, in that he has a passion for life that makes us never turn on him. If he was smug about it or even lazy, maybe I would feel differently. But he has such a driving energy and then has these moments, like you said, where we get to see his heart. The fact that the first act ends with that beautiful father to son number is really special. I love a first act that's brave enough to end with that. Every time I was watching the PBS pro shot of the revival, and I kept on having the thought, if someone else had written the show, this is probably what would happen in this moment. If somebody else had written the show, the first act would end with the slap and then they would be like, oh, what's going to happen next?

Right. But the first act ends not with Marvin having this huge fight with the people that he says he loves, but sitting down his son and being like, this is what I need you to know, even when I'm making mistakes. It's a really beautiful song, and it was a beautiful way to end the first act.

[41:49] Michael Rupert: You're right. Marvin is saying, look, I've made a lot of mistakes. You'll be kid, a man kid, whatever the song, but just sing for us all as we march along. It's that kind of little thing where a father says to his son, be a little better than I was sometimes. It's really those kind of moments where everybody in the audience can relate to those kind of things, and again, why people could relate to Marvin in a lot of ways. One of the other things that Falsettos really represents in a bold, modern way was the Jewish nature of it. From its DNA, this musical is Jewish. A Bar Mitzvah is one of the huge set pieces, I guess, of the whole second act, but it's not like Fiddler on the Roof Jewish culture. It is a modern look at it. Did that feel fresh or interesting to you as well?

[43:01] Michael Rupert: Again, it just seemed natural. I mean, that's why it works. Hello.

[43:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, you're right. That's kind of why it works. It had been set up very early because Bill is Jewish. And the first number is what it is. For Jews that are ambitious. So yeah, we knew that these were Jewish people. I mean, I myself am not Jewish. I grew up pretty strict Catholic, to be honest. So that whole world is very different than the world I grew up in. But yet it still didn't seem like anything different or strange. It just seemed like, well, this is part of the story. The character of Marvin was originally married to Trina. They had a child, Jason, before he then realized he was gay and wanted to separate. This has left Trina in a really interesting place. And once again, I feel like other writers would have created a possibly offensive character.

But Trina is fascinating because this has left her shaken and insecure. If for no other reason, then she can't hate everybody she wants to hate. That struggle, I think, reveals so much about who this woman is.

[44:28] Michael Rupert: Yeah, I think so. It's such an interesting character because, you know, part of the thing, too, is her son, Jason, adores her father's boyfriend. I mean, ain't that the way? I love that when she's like, isn't that the dream of every mother?

[44:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, totally. Jason just thinks Whizzer is great. He's just tops, you know? He can access him in a way. Do you know what, Michael? I need to tell you really fast. My partner, Michael, my nieces and nephews love him. And it reminds me a little bit of Whizzer and Jason because one of my youngest nephews, he was talking to his mom, my sister, and he referred to Michael as the one with the hair who drinks water. And I thought that was so sweet and such an indictment on all of the straight men in my family because mine was the one with hair who hydrates instead of just pounding down Mountain Dews. Anyway, I just love that so much.

[45:30] Michael Rupert: Yeah. But yes, there's this connection between those two. Absolutely. And she's, Trina still really kind of loves Marvin, even though she's now-

[45:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course, they've been through so much.

[45:41] Michael Rupert: They've been through so much. And so, again, what Bill writes is like there are no, there are nothing but kind of these gray areas or these risky seas that people are navigating through life, you know? It's really fascinating. And you got to see so many amazing leading ladies tackle that role from Alison Frazier to Faith Prince to Barbara Walsh. I mean, just incredible women. Randy Graff.

[46:14] Michael Rupert: Randy Graff, we're crying out loud. Oh, my gosh. He did. Randy Graff actually did, I think she played Trina in the first workshop. And then she actually came into the Broadway company and played Trina. I got to be honest, I can't remember if it was before I left or after I left the show. I think she came in after I left the show. How cool. Great ladies who were just, and each very different, which was fascinating. You know, Alison, Faith, Barbara, Randy, you know, very different performances. How cool. They could each do their own thing with it.

[46:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Talk to me about the relationship of Marvin and Whizzer. What is the fuel that keeps them together and sometimes drives them apart?

[47:02] Michael Rupert: Well, again, you know, it's that word we, you know, we talked about earlier, passion, you know, they're both really passionate guys. Whizzer is incredibly competitive, you know, and I think that's attractive. I think that's attractive to Marvin, because Marvin really is too. I mean, they're both very competitive people and they're both, you know, when they when they do the chess game, you know, and, you know, Whizzer, Marvin kind of puts him down for for making stupid what he thinks are stupid moves on the chessboard. But it's by the time the show is over again, by the time, by the end of the story and Whizzer has gone off to die, you just I think you get the sense that these are two guys that really, really deeply loved each other.

I mean, really deeply loved each other. And it's almost like, again, you know, how do you how do you really explain that attraction? What what goes into that? It's not necessarily something you can explain all the time, I think, you know.

[48:10] Michael Rupert: I love that there are instead so many musical numbers that kind of embody it or show it at work, as opposed to maybe describing it or talking at it, because like you mentioned in the first act, you've got this chess game. And then in the second act, and by the way, in the first act, they break up. It's not working out. And then at the top of the second act, because of Jason, because of this connection between Whizzer and Jason, Whizzer comes to a baseball game of Jason's, helps him figure out how to swing that bat, bless his little heart. And Marvin kind of reconnects. And and then instead of chess, now they're playing racquetball. And so you kind of see how that dynamic of always being a little bit competitive with each other is how they say I love you in a weird sort of way.

[49:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, absolutely. And you see the what's interesting was interesting to me is you see the dynamics of Marvin being more of a chess player and better better at it than Whizzer and Whizzer being much more physical at the racquetball and he being better than Marvin, you know, so they each had their I got to say something to you because you just mentioned something about the relationship with Jason and Marvin.

[49:29] Michael Rupert: Yes. One of the things I always found so moving, doing the show being a part of it is when Jason in the second act is not being able to make any decisions about his bar mitzvah that's coming up. Yeah. Yeah. And Trina and Marvin are desperately trying to put all of this together. The decision that Jason makes is that he won't he won't have a bar mitzvah unless it's in Whizzer's hospital room. And because he knows that with.

[50:07] Michael Rupert:

[50:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[51:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[51:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[52:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[52:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[53:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[53:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons:

[54:07] Michael Rupert:

[54:26] Michael Rupert: Another great example of where you just had to sing the song, just sing the song. That's it. I mean, the way Jim staged it, it's literally just, Whizzer is asleep and I'm just sitting there in bed. That's it. It's not like it's not like at some point does Marvin get up out of the bed and move to the window to sing.

[54:55] Michael Rupert: The big key change.

[55:23] Michael Rupert: Yeah. Can you tell I have been revised? You know, the lights come up and, you know.

[55:28] Michael Rupert: Right. Don't want you to act. Just say the words and let the music and the words do it. And he was totally right.

[56:08] Michael Rupert: Well, I'll end by saying that as I got to the end of the show last night, I just started crying because I you probably don't know this, but I cry at a drop of the hat. I don't know why I get older and I just like cry at everything. But I really did cry because I just couldn't understand why things had to happen this way back then. Why did gay people or just any people who were infected by this virus? Why did this have to have to happen? And I just I had a moment of true mourning, I feel like.

[56:44] Michael Rupert: And at the same time, it's kind of a catharsis where it brings you closer to the people who may be suffered because you just feel that empathy and that connection to them.

[56:55] Michael Rupert: Yeah. And I have to feel I have to believe that that is the legacy of the show, is that it connects us to a generation who lived through something that maybe we can kind of know what it is because of the pandemic. But but not not really. Not in the same way.

[57:12] Michael Rupert: It was a very different thing, obviously, than the pandemic. And and it was an incredibly complex time. I'm totally guessing here, but I'm I would say you're too you're you're not old enough to have been there at those moments. But those of us who were I mean, it was a it was a very complex thing and complicated thing to go through, because even though it was not obviously not just attacking gay men, the gay community as as a gay man.

[57:48] Michael Rupert: I could feel the hate that still was coming at our entire community, even after it was very clearly not what they first called gay cancer. You know, it wasn't gay cancer. But it was a very complicated thing. And and and having lived through that to see Bill in falsettos in the second act of falsettos, tackling the very beginnings of what that that was. And knowing as a as a person what it became and what happened afterwards, that's what so oftentimes been very moving.

[58:36] Michael Rupert: This was just the beginnings. And and and there was some doctor somewhere that was just like the doctor in falsettos, where young men were coming to her, her frightened and leaving unenlightened. It was very sad. And and and falsettos touches on that, you know.

[59:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it really does. In a way that you're laughing, you're crying, you're kind of doing.

[59:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, you've grown so close to these characters that to go through it with them, you really do feel like you went through with them. So thank you for not only talking with me today, but for investing your time and heart as an artist into taking audiences through that, because I think it left people changed and because it still changes me in 2024.

[59:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, yeah, that's a pretty, pretty beautiful legacy to be a part of, my friend. Excellent. Congratulations.

[59:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at a musical podcast at gmail dot com.

[59:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on Instagram. We're on X. We're on TikTok. We always have great content there.

[59:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And for only one dollar a month, you can subscribe to Patreon exclamation point where you'll receive a bonus episode every month, plus little inside scoops and essays that I write for each episode that comes out on the regular feed.

[1:00:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We'd love to have you over there because it also supports the show and allows me to keep doing all of this. Finally, don't forget to look at our public store where we have great designs on all kinds of products and the profits from those.

[1:00:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We donate to Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS.

[1:00:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, Michael Rupert, how do we follow you? What is there anything you want to plug?

[1:00:27] Michael Rupert: No, not really. You know what? I'm pretty much retired at this point.

[1:00:33] Michael Rupert: Yes, I love to hear that. That is an actual thing for artists. You get to retire.

[1:00:42] Michael Rupert: Well, I started, you know, I started doing this when I got my I joined Actors' Equity when I was like 12 years old.

[1:00:49] Michael Rupert: Oh, my gosh.

[1:00:50] Michael Rupert: Well, yeah, because happy time. Hello.

[1:00:52] Michael Rupert: Yeah. I mean, I started very young and I got to the point right after a few years ago, I did a revival of On the Town on Broadway. Right after that, I kind of thought, you know, and I turned to my husband, Will, and said, you know, I think I'm done. I think I think I'm at the point now where I don't need to be in. I don't really need to be in front of an audience any longer.

[1:01:18] Michael Rupert: I've been I've had the real pleasure and and honor to work with a lot of really great people in my life. I've done, you know, some shows that I'm really proud of. I still go to see shows now that friends that friends are in and to see the passion that they still have to get out there and tell a story.

[1:01:43] Michael Rupert: I just don't know if I have that any longer, you know, because I did it for many, many years.

[1:01:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's beautiful.

[1:01:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So anyway.

[1:01:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, that's fantastic. We will be sending you amazing retirement vibes.

[1:02:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Go go take a cruise. Be with your hubby. Enjoy life. And we're so very grateful.

[1:02:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Everybody out there. Thank you so much for listening.

[1:02:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And test out your falsettos.

[1:02:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We didn't talk about this, but my falsetto was terrible.

[1:02:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Awful.

[1:02:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know. I sound like a frog.

[1:02:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So bravo. Kudos to you.

[1:02:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bravo.

[1:02:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye.

[1:02:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye.

[1:02:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye.