This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Joe Aaron Reid: I don't think you could write a Finian's Rainbow, as is today, because I think the climate has changed. And that's why I think it is special and it is a gem, because you then get to go back to it and be like, whoa, it's so of its time, but when done well, it just knocks your socks off.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are getting ready for Black History Month coming up in February by discussing the musical Finian's Rainbow. We'll let you know why in a little bit. Here to discuss this fantastical little show is one of the Broadway cast members of the 2009 revival. He was also on Broadway in, big breath, because there's a lot of titles here, Chicago, Catch Me If You Can, Curtains, Ghost the Musical, and If Then. If Then! Remember that show? I'm sure you do. And I would love to cover it one day. Everyone, please welcome Joe Aaron Reid. Yay!

[1:26] Joe Aaron Reid: Hi.

[1:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Joe, so grateful you're here.

[1:30] Joe Aaron Reid: Thanks for having me.

[1:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, take us back in time. Tell us your own little fantastical story. What was going on in your life when you auditioned for Finian's Rainbow? Had you heard about it? Because this show hadn't really seen the light of day for quite some time prior to the encore staging that eventually transferred to Broadway.

[1:49] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah, so I actually, I didn't know Finian's Rainbow at all when I was auditioning for it. But I had, my first job in New York City proper was with City Center, was Kismet.

[2:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh.

[2:05] Joe Aaron Reid: So when I got the call for Finian's Rainbow, I was like, oh, you know, I haven't done an encore in a while. Like, yeah, I'll totally go in for that. And, you know, I remember auditioning for it and I was just having a lot of fun. You know, you don't, not often do you get to audition for like those really old school, golden era of Broadway, you know, with the big orchestra and the, you know, just the beautiful vocals. And so it was really nice to audition for something like that, especially because I had, I think the last, the Broadway show prior to that would have been Chicago, which, just different, you know?

[2:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[2:42] Joe Aaron Reid: So I was really looking forward to doing it once I got the call. And, you know, Warren Carlyle is no, you know, he's not afraid of choreography. So like, we're doing a staged concert, but like it's staged down. Like it's, it's...

[2:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's staged the house down.

[3:00] Joe Aaron Reid: Staged the house down. Ga-ga-ga. And, you know, we were dancing and in the Encores! production, I played a couple of the roles because the roles were divvied up a little bit differently. So I was one of the baguette singers in act two and then I was Henry, the kind of servant boy. And we didn't have any real children. So it was, you know, it was a little bit different. And we had a different, you know, we had a different leprechaun, og, you know, things like that were different. But yeah, it was, it was a wild time kind of going into a show that I didn't know. And then at the time, seeing the show come together was like, oh wow, like it's pretty relevant because, you know, we just had the housing crisis. So this idea of, you know, doing the show where we, you know, we do discuss credit and things like that. It was, it was interesting.

[3:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And then when did you, because you've done other shows, like, did you have a feeling, oh, this is going to go to New York or is it always just be grateful that it happened?

[3:57] Joe Aaron Reid: Well, you know, the funny thing is, is I remember again, going back to my first encores, which was Kismet, you know, that was Brian Stokes Mitchell, Marin Mazzie. I mean, we thought this is going to go. Like there was just no way that it wasn't. Like they were coming back together again from their Kiss Me Kate days. Like this is going to go. And it didn't go anywhere. And we were like, oh, okay. So then Finian's Rainbow happened and we were all like, what is this show? It's so wild. Like, it's such a kooky, quirky little, like it's a gem of a show, but it's, it's definitely like, and especially for the time it was out there. And we just thought like, well, this'll be a fun, you know, two and a half week gig, like no biggie. And then the next thing we knew, we were getting the call, like we're going to Broadway. We were like, what? Okay. You know, I'm not going to turn it down. Are you sure?

[4:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. That's incredible. How fun. So then how quick was that turnaround? Did you have to wait for a theater or?

[4:54] Joe Aaron Reid: You know, the, the, the theater waiting game is always, is always one of the hardest things in New York. Luckily though, we ended up, I think we did that. We started rehearsals. I want to say that was in like January, February. And by September, October, I was in rehearsals for Finian's again. Now at the time I was doing double duty because I was doing Tin Pen Alley Rag for Roundabout. And so I would go to rehearsals. That was like at the end of the run. And then I would go to rehearsals for Finian's Rainbow. That was like September, I think. So, you know, all in all, I would say it was maybe like seven, eight months tops.

[5:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy. That's not bad at all.

[5:36] Joe Aaron Reid: No, no, honestly, like one of the things about working a lot in the theater is, you know, it is, it's tough emotionally. It's tough on your body. It's tough. So I welcome little breaks. You know, I think some people get too freaked out. I'm never going to work again.

[5:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[5:54] Joe Aaron Reid: And I mean, I just knew that I would. When you got it, you got it. Flunted. But yeah, it was just one of those things. Like I, when, when I got the call, I was really excited because I, I loved working with the cast and the creatives of Finian's. So to be able to be reunited and then, you know, I will say that one of my concerns when I got the call, when they were like, we're going to the St. James and I was like, Oh, that's a, that's a big space, you know? But yeah, let's go. Let's do it. And I loved it too, because it was just was a little engine that could and had a lot of heart. And surprisingly it was so well received that it, it was a pleasure to do.

[6:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. You guys got glowing review after glowing review.

[6:47] Joe Aaron Reid: That was wild. Unfortunately the run wasn't too long. You opened at the, so you opened at the end of 2009, right? And then you made it through the holiday season, but then ended up closing, I think in January. I think that's what it was.

[7:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Right after, right after the new year.

[7:04] Joe Aaron Reid: And that was tough, especially when you do, you know, it's not technically an out of town trial doing it on course, but when you do something pre-Broadway and then it goes to Broadway, it really does feel like your baby. And so when you get that closing notice and, you know, I know a lot of producers really try, if the show is not doing well or is going to close, they try and give you kind of as much notice as they can. But I remember we didn't have much notice at all, maybe a week or two tops too.

[7:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yikes.

[7:34] Joe Aaron Reid: And, you know, it's tough when that's your job. But at the same time, I remember we were playing to houses where, you know, the St. James is just, is such a massive space. And, you know, there are two balconies. And so I just remember they stopped even opening the top balcony. So in some ways we were disappointed and in some ways we understood.

[7:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, like you said, when you came in contact with the show, it's bizarre. And I wouldn't say it's a tough sell, but it's probably difficult to convince people that it is relevant to their lives until they maybe actually get into it and be like, oh, there's some really cool progressive things about this show that I had no idea.

[8:18] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct. And I think too, you know, maybe not as much as now, but certainly I've seen the progression from when I first got on Broadway in 2007. I've seen the progression of, or some might say digression of, of Broadway, you know, being about, you know, movies turned musicals and jukebox musicals and, you know, Finian's Rainbow. It was such a big deal in its time.

[8:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[8:44] Joe Aaron Reid: And that's when a lot of even musical theater songs were on the pop charts. So it is a hard sell, you know, in today's climate, not necessarily because of the subject matter, but because of name recognition. We're a society that's built on branding and Finian's Rainbow. People haven't heard of SpongeBob.

[9:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough, period. Let's take a moment. And by moment, I mean several to talk about the brand of this show, because it requires a bit of context, which is always my favorite to do a little historical context. So this show is written by three guys who you probably think you've never heard of listeners. And yet you absolutely know who they are. First up, let's talk about E.Y. Harburg.

[9:30] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah, that's his official name. E.Y. Harburg. Better known to everyone as Yip. And you may think I've never heard of this guy. He's a great lyricist, but I don't know a single lyric. Yes, you do. Follow the yellow brick road. Ding dong. The witch is dead. Yeah. Every somewhere over the rainbow for crying out loud. E.Y. Harburg was the lyricist for Wizard of Oz, on top of many other great songs out of Hollywood. And his two big, I mean, he had several, but his two big Broadway ventures were Finian's Rainbow, which was a huge hit when this opened in 1947. It was a big, big hit. And the shirt that I'm wearing today, Flahooly! Exclamation point. Have you ever heard of Flahooly?

[10:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[10:22] Joe Aaron Reid: Okay. It's absolutely bonkers. Joe's dying. I love that you have mercs, though. Well, on my Patreon last year, we often go to what I call the Flop Shop, where we discuss some flop musicals that maybe would never see the light of day, and probably shouldn't, but are really fantastic curios. And the one that I picked, or one of the ones that I picked in January of last year, was Flahooly, which was also written by E.Y. Harburg. Now, what he would do with these Broadway ventures is create a little piece of wacky satire. And we talked, I think, a little bit in one of our earlier episodes on Heathers about what the difference is between, say, satire and parody, right? And in the 30s and 40s, musical theater, satire was very, very common.

The way that they kept it in satire, though, is by keeping the music earnest. The music wasn't the joke. And in satire, in maybe modern musical theater, you have this satirical story or script, but then the music becomes a wink-wink, joke-joke, we're doing a musical. Totally. They never did that back then, which is how you end up with a show like Finian's Rainbow, which takes place in the made-up state of Missitucky and yet has glorious music like Old Devil Moon and How Are Things in Guacamorra. That's just not a recipe we really make anymore nowadays. But I love it. I don't know. It creates a really special product.

[12:10] Joe Aaron Reid: Does that make sense?

[12:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It totally makes sense. And I think that part of the reason you mentioned earnestness, I think that we as a society aren't as earnest as we once were. And that's just because of the progression in technology. We have so much more access.

[12:30] Joe Aaron Reid: Do you know what, I would even, I wonder if like the closest we get to it nowadays is maybe something like Ted Lasso, right? Where it's like, the satire is like almost on toxic masculinity in the sports world. And because of that, it's filled with musical theatre references, you know, in that is its own commentary.

[12:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally. But even in something like, and I love Ted Lasso, but even in something like Ted Lasso, the reason why Ted Lasso works is because everyone around Ted is not that.

[13:09] Joe Aaron Reid: True.

[13:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The show, he is changing hearts throughout the show, right?

[13:14] Joe Aaron Reid: You're so right. Whereas, you know, something like FINIAN'S RAINBOW or just shows in general or society in general, at this time, the majority of people were that kind of earnest, that kind of naive, you know.

[13:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Or they were willing to go into a story where everyone just operated this way. It wasn't like Elf.

[13:34] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct.

[13:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Where Will Ferrell is the one person.

[13:37] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct. In this craziness. Which I think is amazing. I mean, that device, it makes for such great storytelling. And I think anyone who writes off, you know, the kind of earnest protagonist, I think is actually doing themselves a disservice because we need more of that in society. I mean, I think, you know, I don't know the kinds of conversations that you're having outside of this podcast or, you know, on the island. But I do think that the majority of people that I talk to, it feels like society is crumbling and everyone just wishes that there was a little bit more, you know, we have social media, but we wish that there was more real connection, you know. Yeah, I welcome more of more earnestness in life.

[14:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I completely agree. Amen.

[14:25] Joe Aaron Reid: So the composer of Finian's Rainbow, we talked about the lyricist, the composer, Burton Lane, what a talented fella.

[14:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally.

[14:35] Joe Aaron Reid: On top of Finian's Rainbow, he also composed On a Clear Day, You Can See Forever.

[14:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Clear day.

[14:42] Joe Aaron Reid: Sing it, Barbara. Anyway, just he has such an interesting ear for melody. Even I keep going back to Old Devil Moon, but the places that song goes are always so surprising to me and chill inducing, like the way that the chorus builds, his melodies are just really impressive. And he also, in a weird way, has a Wizard of Oz connection because he discovered Judy Garland.

[15:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He heard her sing, right?

[15:14] Joe Aaron Reid: Like, pat yourself on the back, Mr. Lane. He heard her singing and then invited, who was it? Louis G. Mayer, I don't know, somebody to come down and hear her sing. And that's how she, you know, got signed into a motion picture contract and unfortunately, probably addicted to speed. But like that, that's beside the point. So thank you, Burton Lane, for all of your contributions. Book writer Fred Sadie. Honestly, probably working pretty closely with E.Y. Harburg to figure out this zany, crazy world. So these are our three fellas.

[15:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, when the show opens in 1947, big hit. In the same season, Brigadoon. Interesting, right? So you've got these two fantasy-filled musicals with Irish or Scottish traditions tied to them. In the same season, Finian's Rainbow is the bigger hit. It runs longer. At the Tony Awards, they didn't have Best Musical or anything at that point. I think they had, was it the very first Tony Awards?

[16:23] Joe Aaron Reid: Oh.

[16:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 1947. Because the first Best Musical was in 1949. Yeah, maybe it was the very first. But in 1947, they gave the guy who played Og, the leprechaun, a special Best Featured Actor award. They gave a dual award for choreography to Michael Kidd, who had done Finian's Rainbow, and Agnes DeMille, who was doing Brigadoon. So they shared it. But all in all, Finian's Rainbow was this juggernaut that created a lot of songs that were then heard on the radio, like you mentioned earlier. Now, as time goes, however, Finian's Rainbow becomes less and less known, and Brigadoon becomes more and more well-known. Now I would say by 2024, Brigadoon is probably the title that people recognize more, thanks to Schmigadoon on top of it, right?

[17:17] Joe Aaron Reid: Sure.

[17:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But it's interesting how they flip-flopped. Now, according to how you understand it, why do you think that is?

[17:27] Joe Aaron Reid: I'll give you my honest opinion and guess. From my understanding, obviously, Finian's Rainbow is more about the integration of white people and Black people within the story and just casting in general. And my understanding of Brigadoon is it's white-white. And I think that over time, while that was a big hit, because again, relevancy, right? 1947, I believe that Finian's Rainbow was one of the first integrated choruses.

[18:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The first.

[18:02] Joe Aaron Reid: The first integrated chorus on Broadway. So it made such a splash, right? But then as time went on, the relevancy of Finian's Rainbow maybe dipped a little bit, as it became a little bit harder to kind of figure out how to do the production and this, that, and the other, so it wasn't done as much. Whereas Brigadoon is just like this fantasy Scottish moment. Put it up like it is.

[18:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly.

[18:26] Joe Aaron Reid: You have to fix it. Copy-paste, right? But then I also think with time, as a Black actor, mixed actor, biracial actor, we got more shows. There were more shows that were written for Black people. And I think that because a lot of people, the kind of racial topography of Finian's Rainbow can be a bit difficult to traverse. And for some people, especially producers, I think it comes down to, hmm, do I want to try and figure out a way to mount this where I'm not going to get lambasted in the press? Or do I just do X, Y, and Z? And so I feel that we ended up, you know, Black people ended up getting more shows that were easier to mount, easier to sell, more in line with what was happening in terms of pop music. Times changed.

[19:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 100%. It's really interesting to read historians' takes on it and also just kind of see the facts as you've presented them. When Finian's Rainbow first was presented on Broadway, it had a really difficult time finding backing because it was presenting a musical with an integrated cast. Before then, you had your showboats where you had a Black chorus and a white chorus, and they were in the same show, but they weren't sharing the stage together and shaking hands and singing and dancing.

[19:52] Joe Aaron Reid: I've done a production of showboat, and we marry the two show cross.

[19:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Just different, yeah.

[20:00] Joe Aaron Reid: That's fascinating. Just like structurally, it's built in there.

[20:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct.

[20:05] Joe Aaron Reid: Because people could not handle it.

[20:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. So E.Y. Harburg, who, as you'll find out as we keep talking about this show, was a wild progressive. Tried really, really hard to find backing for this show. Could not do it. So they went from living room to living room at every Manhattan Skyrise apartment to try and find liberal rich people who would put their money into Finian's Rainbow. Ultimately, they do that. They just get that many people involved that then they could bring the show to the stage. So we're talking about not only a show that is presenting the audience with something they've never experienced before, but a story that is also looking straight into the barrel at bigotry and capitalism and greed and kind of all the things, to quote another show that you've done, that are near and dear to our hearts here in this country. So this was easily the most liberal show of maybe the 1940s.

[21:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[21:19] Joe Aaron Reid: I mean, maybe with the exception of South Pacific. But maybe even more so than that, just because of the visual of this integrated.

[21:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think so.

[21:29] Joe Aaron Reid: I think so.

[21:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think so.

[21:30] Joe Aaron Reid: And the way in which they really, like you said, they're right down the barrel. They're not mincing words. Sure, they're putting lovely orchestrations with it, but they're being very clear on what they're trying to say. And that's what I think this show does do a very good job of. It doesn't shy away, as beautiful as it is, it doesn't shy away from its themes. Now, one of the themes is explored because one of the most bigoted character in it, who is a white senator, gets magically turned into a Black man in order to learn a lesson of what it's like to be somebody you don't, or maybe somebody you hate, if you just want to say it like that. It was originally done via Blackface, and I think that element alone painted this show pretty quickly as being a dated and racially offensive show.

[22:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I mean, if you have a show with Blackface.

[22:25] Joe Aaron Reid: It would, yeah, if the show is like, one of the premises is Blackface to learn a lesson. I mean, that's, we would call that cancelled now. You know, like that's just, you're not, no one's going to touch it. And I think that that definitely played a part. I also really enjoy what you said about the risk that it is to do theater in general. It's just a lot easier not to take a risk. I think about this all the time, how Song of the South was just like a really, like a big black mark on the Disney Corporation. And instead of like learning their lessons and being like, ooh, thank you for that feedback. We're going to try this again, but do it the right way. They just never made another movie that kind of dealt with those issues until Princess and the Frog.

[23:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct.

[23:15] Joe Aaron Reid: Like that's, unfortunately, the reality is that sometimes if producers get it wrong, instead of trying it again, they're just going to do Brigadoon.

[23:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[23:25] Joe Aaron Reid: And it's a sad, because I think theater, you know, we were talking before we even got on this about how, you know, how kids, they want to come in and they want to escape, right? And I think theater can be an escape. But I also think that theater is meant to push boundaries. It's meant to get people asking questions that they may not ordinarily ask themselves. And, you know, if you're lucky, you will find shows that are able to do both. And I think Finian's Rainbow is one of those shows that is able to do both. It's able to ask, you know, not, yes, it asks you questions, but it makes you ask yourself questions and it makes you think of things differently. On top of giving you beautiful choreography and beautiful orchestrations.

[24:09] Joe Aaron Reid: And a lot of laughs too.

[24:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A ton of laughs.

[24:11] Joe Aaron Reid: The satire is funny.

[24:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A ton of laughs.

[24:14] Joe Aaron Reid: And it's unfortunate that people look at things like that and they feel too scared or intimidated maybe by choosing to mount something like that in favor of something that's just palatable. Palatable is great for good fun. You know, I just bought tickets for me and my kids to go see 42nd Street down in Long Beach. You know, like I'm, you know.

[24:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think, yeah, exactly, exactly. I think palatable is amazing. You know, it has its place. But I think if all commercially viable theater, if it only becomes palatable and those are the commercial ventures, then whose hearts and minds are we changing?

[24:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How can theatre, especially in the digital age, right? We've got film and television, but now there's streaming and now there's, you know, YouTube and Hulu and Slack and Sling, and I mean, there's just endless possibilities, right? And theatre, while I think it's a completely different experience from those things, if they only have palatable options, how are we, I think that actually makes theatre more redundant. What's the point in spending a hundred plus dollars on a Broadway ticket when I can just wait for it on Disney Plus?

[25:30] Joe Aaron Reid: Right. I know you're exactly right. So I think it's, we need to be thinking more about the impact of theatre and not just filling a theatre with whatever, so that way people come to see it. And it's one of the reasons why I love doing this show so much, because when you look back at our history, all of a sudden you don't feel so alone. You see that EY Harburg had the exact same problem in the 1940s as we're having now. And I would hope that it brings a sense of, once again, of connection to our past and understanding that it might be more of a human problem than just like the fault of one president in the space of four years who has ruined everything. You know what I mean? Like, it isn't that. It's something that we've always been working with. And the answer isn't just to like burn it all down and build it all up. I saw plenty of things burn to the ground last year, and I can tell you it's not quite the fresh start you think it is.

[26:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. So these are things that we have to contend with, and they did contend with back then. So like, welcome to the party. This is the game. This is what we're doing. This is the work we're doing.

[26:38] Joe Aaron Reid: Yes. At least we are afforded the opportunity to do it if we choose so.

[26:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amen. Here's the call. Please take it.

[26:47] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct. So the other thing that you said a while back that I wanted to touch on is that you said that as musical theater progressed, people of color got different shows.

[26:58] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah.

[26:59] Joe Aaron Reid: More shows.

[27:00] Joe Aaron Reid: More shows. Different kinds of shows. And I would add to that shows that were written for audiences of color.

[27:06] Joe Aaron Reid: Sure. Because at the end of the day, I'm not too sure black people would go to Finian's Rainbow and feel like it was written for them.

[27:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. You know what I mean? They already know the lesson that the bigoted senator's learning.

[27:20] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah. I think we did have black people that came to see Finian's Rainbow, right? And I think that a lot of that comes down to their enjoyment of it. I think a lot of it comes down to the performances that are given. You want to go see Chuck Cooper and Terry White. I mean, when you have Chuck Cooper and Terry White, you can't really go wrong because they get it. They are it. They've got that je ne sais quoi that lives deep down in their gut that's on fire. But if you had someone else playing those roles, it might not land like that. And even being a black person in the show, there were moments where you were like, yeah, I mean, it's a pretty take on sharecropping. You know what I mean? At the end of the day, we are dealing with sharecroppers. Hello.

[28:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's beautiful. But I think you're absolutely right. I think the shows that finally came along were more for, you know, you look at the Jelly Last Jams, you look at the Ain't Misbehavin's, you look at where there's a grittiness there that is innately in the piece more so than something like Finian's, where it's added by the person who created it.

[28:33] Joe Aaron Reid: Mm hmm.

[28:34] Joe Aaron Reid: If that makes any sense.

[28:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. The person who's performing it, the people who are doing it, but in the DNA is something for-

[28:43] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct.

[28:44] Joe Aaron Reid: This audience.

[28:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, let's go through the show a little bit because I do want people to, you guys, I'm telling you, you might not see this show. And so I want you to know what it's all about.

[28:57] Joe Aaron Reid: Probably won't.

[28:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. I'm going to now, it's a tradition on the show for me to tell the guests about this crazy metaphor I use called black ketchup. My great grandma was from like, you know, the world wars. And so she lived very frugally. And there's a story that we often tell in our family about how she had these bottles of ketchup in the basement and they had turned black, right? The ketchup inside was-

[29:28] Joe Aaron Reid: They oxidized.

[29:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fully black. Yeah. And I, we had like aunts and uncles who said, you know, hey grandma, maybe it's time to throw out these black. No, it's fine. You know what I'm, you never know when you'll need it for an emergency. And sometimes I wonder-

[29:43] Joe Aaron Reid: Emergency ketchup.

[29:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Emergency ketchup, emergency black ketchup. And sometimes I wonder if we look at some of our old shows and we're like, oh, we don't want to throw that away. But at the same time, do we want to consume it? You know, which of these shows are black ketchup? Things that were very grateful that they were nice and rosy red when they existed, but now maybe it's time to put them away. I don't know. Is Finian's Rainbow in that category?

[30:16] Joe Aaron Reid: I don't think so.

[30:17] Joe Aaron Reid: I don't think so either. But I just, I also don't see it making money anytime soon.

[30:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, no. I mean, I think it's, this is one of the things that I loved about living in London and doing theater in London. There was so much more subsidized theater there. And I think Finian's Rainbow has many strong messages. And I think, you know, if we had a more subsidized situation, I think Finian's Rainbow would fall perfectly into a season like that because I don't think we should get rid of it. And I do think, and I will say, you know, obviously we handled, we did the 2009 revival and we handled the senator turning black very differently than the original. You know, I think it proves that like, you don't need blackface and you can do it like that. And it's just as effective as long as you have two people, you know, a senator that you hate and a black senator that you love. I think you're fine, you know?

[31:17] Joe Aaron Reid: Ding, ding, ding.

[31:18] Joe Aaron Reid: So I think we kind of proved that it can work and the message can still get through. Do I think it's ever, you know, do I think it's going to be, make a massive, huge success, you know, on some big scale? No, I don't. But I don't think every show has to do that. And I think if that is the, I think that's part of the problem with Broadway is that becomes the aim, right? Who's got the next big machine that's going to turn out 17 tours at a time and, you know, cross the pond and then go down under and then open in Germany and then swing back around, you know, it's, if that's what theater has to be, then there are many shows that are black ketchup. But I think that, I don't, I don't think that Finian's Rainbow is black ketchup. I think Finian's Rainbow is going to be that, that bottle of ketchup that sits on the shelf and when it's time, it's time. And it might only be a little tiny jar of it, but it's, it'll be time.

[32:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that. So the show begins, like I said, in this place called Missitucky. It's a made up state in the United States, more specifically in Missitucky, Rainbow Valley. Something I know about from living here on Maui, I gotta say. In this place, like you said, are sharecroppers, people who are allowed to work the land in exchange for basically giving all of their profits. It was a, it was not a great time. But in this made up fantasy land, the sharecroppers are both black and white. They live in perfect harmony. Everything's good. The land that they are working is owned by this guy named Woody, who has just got done serving in World War II. So just like Brigadoon, another show where we're talking about guys coming back from the war.

Like this is the most important topic on everyone's mind is like, what do you do after the war? So this guy's coming back and he doesn't really feel, even though he owns this land, he doesn't really feel like being there. He's exploring Alaska. He's going to all of these different places. And so he is kind of like a guy with a guitar who wants to sing a song and move through the land. He has a sister who is mute and only speaks through dance. This is not even the craziest part. Tell me a little bit, because we're going to now jump into dance. Tell me about working with Warren Carlyle, who has become kind of the guy for staging revivals of old musicals. Why do you think he's trusted with that? Does he have a sensibility that's matched to traditional musicals?

[34:13] Joe Aaron Reid: I do. I mean, you know, remember, he kind of came up under Susan Stroman's wing. And I think he is, he is a man that loves beauty in whatever essence that manifests itself, beauty. He has this eye, he can just see things beautifully. And so the way these, I think with a lot of these revivals, if you're going to do them, there has to be something fresh about them, right? There has to be something that's like, that makes it exciting. And I think he creates such beautiful pictures on stage, like visually just, there's so much going on, but in such a beautiful way that you're, I see why people interest him. He's able to take something that could be dated, could be clunky, could be whatever. And he makes it into this thing that just, it's like a breath of fresh air, and it takes your breath away all at the same time. And then the next thing you know, it's like the button of this huge production number, and you've seen 4 million things happen, and you just love all of them.

[35:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it lives, it breathes.

[35:16] Joe Aaron Reid: He's very classically trained, right? And so a lot of his choreography is very balletic, very ballet based. And so even in movement of the time, there's still this sense of like line and beauty. So it's just so aesthetically pleasing. And as a dancer, when you're doing that kind of choreography, it feels good. I'm not saying it's easy, because there were definitely moments where my hip flexor was like, I hate you. But it was, you feel beautiful doing it. It just feels, it's just all beauty.

[35:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's beautiful.

[35:53] Joe Aaron Reid: All right.

[35:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you got the mute sister, Susan, who dances in order to talk, and the people are able to translate her feet and say, oh, this is what she means. There's kind of a crisis happening right now in Rainbow Valley, where the senator has said that there are all these back taxes that have to be paid from the sharecroppers. The sharecroppers are like, excuse me, when did this happen? And of course, it's the senator, because what he wants is to gobble up the land for himself so that he can sell it to the government to build a dam or do whatever they want with it. All of this mistrust of leadership and so on and so forth.

[36:34] Joe Aaron Reid: Relevant? I think so.

[36:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right? Perhaps. The answer to all of this is the citizens of this place say, well, Woody is coming back in town. Here he comes. In fact, here he is.

[36:48] Joe Aaron Reid: That's right.

[36:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He'll have the answer. And he does have the answer. He has the money that he was given after leaving the war, what would be your discharge pay or something like that, that he can then put towards the taxes. Unfortunately, it's not enough. Fortunately, there are two new people who wander into Rainbow Valley. Sharon and her father, Finian, who have come from Ireland. These are immigrants who are coming to Rainbow Valley in the United States to build... It's the immigration story, the classic immigration story.

[37:25] Joe Aaron Reid: By foot.

[37:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're gonna get come here... Say what?

[37:27] Joe Aaron Reid: By foot.

[37:28] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah, oh, that's right. They walked all the way from Ireland. You're right. Oh my gosh.

[37:35] Joe Aaron Reid: They were just in New York and then they walked all the way to Mississippi. And it's to, you know, follow the yellow brick road for lack of a better term. Specifically, Finian has found a pot of gold. He found it in Ireland and he wanted to come to America to bury that gold near Fort Knox because he believes that the reason that America is the land of promise is because they found all this gold in California during the gold rush, brought it over to Fort Knox, buried it, and then from this fertile soil grew this prosperous land. This is the plot of Finian's Rainbow. So Finian has brought this gold to bury so that they can become millionaires.

[38:26] Joe Aaron Reid: Sharon is such an interesting character and I can't ever speak too much about the incredible Kate Baldwin. Because right here at the beginning of this show, she has song after song after song and you better enjoy listening to Sharon's voice and is there a voice more enjoyable to listen to than Kate Baldwin's? It was just like, I loved being backstage. I mean, yes, we were on stage with her too, but just being backstage and hearing that beautiful, effortless, effortless. It feels like if her voice, like if I could put a fabric, it would be like a Lara Piana, like just so soft. You just want to wrap yourself in it. I just want to wrap myself in her tones, her dulcet tones.

[39:14] Joe Aaron Reid: Her dulcet tones. Absolutely. But Sharon is also, I mean, she's a fiery redhead too. And she's always calling her father out for his foolishness. There's this great line where he said, you know, America is the place where you can be anything. Irishman can come here and become, and she cuts him off and says, policeman. You know, like she is such a sassafras and I love it. In addition to the gold, they just happen to have the exact amount of money that Woody doesn't have to pay all of the taxes. So the two of them together, boom, the Senator has to leave and not have the land yet.

[39:52] Joe Aaron Reid: The other thing that brings them together through this exchange of money is Sharon and Woody have a little romance going on. A little love connection. And that's why they get to sing the perfect song, Old Devil Moon, which is just romantic and sexy. I mean, Chet Walker singing Old Devil Moon, it doesn't get any better. Now, the other thing that we haven't talked about is that a leprechaun has followed Sharon. Vengeance. Oh my gosh, this plot is just amazing. It's thick. A leprechaun has followed Finian and Sharon to Mississippi because he needs his gold back. If he's away from his gold too long and everybody uses the wishes that are attached to the gold, he becomes mortal and he is not interested in that. He is a leprechaun. He wants to stay a leprechaun. The leprechaun in your production was played by the only person who should probably play this role, Christopher Fitzgerald.

[40:51] Joe Aaron Reid: Oh, I dream.

[40:53] ⚠ About 2 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[43:19] Joe Aaron Reid: It's very uncomfortable. I got to tell you, I because I again, I played that role in the Encores! version. And like not performing it, but I remember rehearsing it. I was like, oh, it just felt so cringy. Because of when you look through at these old, these old scenes in this dialogue through the lens of today, it is going to feel cringe. But that's the same way as if we look at our fashion from when we were younger, you know, like, it's cringe, right? But in context, it doesn't mean it wasn't true. It doesn't mean exactly. And in context, it really does work. Because what's the great thing is that when he realizes his plan isn't working to take over Rainbow Valley, he has heart palpitations and needs his medicine.

So he then asks Henry, his servant to go get his, you know, his meds. But in a truly beautiful poetic justice moment, Henry starts shuffling like he's supposed to and takes much longer than maybe he would have regularly to get the medicine. It's really fantastic. And it makes the cringe worth it. Because you're like, is this what you wanted, sir? Yeah, exactly. It's the payoff is there. And that's where it's like, we are all feeling uncomfortable watching this, right? As an audience, you're feeling uncomfortable. But then when you do when you get that payoff, you're like, oh, okay, we can all breathe. Goodness, that's where we were going. Yeah, exactly. We weren't sure. But now that we know we're safe.

Yeah, but what talk about risk, right? We keep on talking about. Yeah. Imagine that in 1947. I can't even imagine it may have even played differently, where they weren't cringy. They're like, yeah, he probably should learn how to do the show. Totally. You know, totally. He this guy's in charge, listen to him. And then to see the comeuppance may have been a real surprise. Totally. Absolutely. Well, and then that plays into you know, you know, yet being, you know, so left this leaning and you know, the way in which they created the show, the show in 1947 would have been much more in your face. Because that's they're basing it on those times. Yeah, great point.

[45:44] Joe Aaron Reid: Before we end the first act, is it Finian who gets all of the children excited? Or is the og the leprechaun? I'm forgetting. I think it's Og. Because Og's looking for his pot of gold. And so to get kind of help in finding it, he tells all of the kids in town, hey, I'm looking for this gold. And they're like, well, what would you do with gold? And he's like, you could get whatever you want. And now comes in this piece of criticizing our consumerist type society in America. There's a great song called necessity that also talks about that, which is, you know, the greatest disappointment is always realizing what you need. Because what you need is going to cost money. So it's like, yeah, have your vacations have your thing.

But guess what, at the end of the day, you still got to pay your rent. Yeah, right. And that's the truth about a capitalistic society is that you're born and you're already in the red. That's because it's expensive to live. And I think it's so it was such a smart decision to have a song like that sung by a black woman, because, you know, just historically how it feels. And we talk about this a lot today, you know, how how black women, it's like they're the bedrock, the backbone of society. And like, they have to hold the weight of everyone else. Right. And so to have a woman sing a song like that, especially in 1947, but it's still played in 2009, where it's just such a powerful moment that is done satirically, so it's still funny. But it's a very it's a very in your face moment. Yeah.

[47:25] Joe Aaron Reid: We should also say that the way that you make wishes in this show is that you have to stand over the gold where it's buried in the ground in order to say your wish. So since nobody knows where Finian buried his gold, it means that an accidental wish gets made, because Sharon is standing over it when she confronts the senator and basically says, I wish that you could see things from someone else's point of view other than your crazy, racist, bigoted POV. Yeah. And in that moment, he turns into a black man. This is the moment that we talked about was usually done with blackface. But with you guys, you switched out actors and had Tony winner Chuck Cooper now playing this racist senator. Yeah. Which had to be fantastic.

Oh, I mean, what a what a masterclass to watch, you know, because not only is he is he just an incredible actor, but watching a black man play a white man being a black man was just I mean, it doesn't get better than that. That's amazing. All right. So where should we go next in the plot? So because Ogg is saying you can get whatever you want with gold. So then there's all the stuff where Sears and Roebuck come into. That's right. Now we're going into, my gosh, another really fascinating piece of consumerism is this idea of credit. Back in 1947, before our nation's deficit grew to be what the crazy number it is, they were already criticizing this idea of credit. Yeah, because everybody's like, well, we have the gold.

And it's not Sears and Roebuck. Like it was in 1947. It's Shears and Roebuck. I was gonna say Roblox. I have kids. You have children. Shears and Robust. Robust. That's it. So Shears and Robust, which is like the catalog with all of the things has heard that this community has gold buried somewhere. And so then they offer them free credit. I say in quotations free. Free. So now everyone is living their best Oh, the Wells Fargo wagon life, dreaming of all of the things that they're going to buy on credit. And they do. And all of those things come. And then eventually, knock, knock, knock. Here comes Shears and Robust saying, okay, so now how are you going to pay for it? And they're like, what?

[49:58] Joe Aaron Reid: We had to pay for it. Once again, so crazy that this is part of the plot, but it is. This, to me, was the main selling point for the revival in 2009 because we had just had the housing crisis of 2008. The bubble that totally burst because of this very thing.

[50:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. You're so right.

[50:17] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct. It's literally predatory lending.

[50:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Yeah, that's what Shears and Robust did is exactly what the housing market had done.

[50:26] Joe Aaron Reid: I just got chills all over thinking of how relevant that was.

[50:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And it's sad because you're preying on people that don't know any better, right? These are the sharecroppers who have just been happy doing their work.

[50:37] Joe Aaron Reid: Correct. And we've established in the beginning of the show that whatever Woody says is a good idea is a good idea. And of course, they've got Woody thinking, great. So he's like, says, he, her. He's on the train for credit as well. And so everyone kind of follows suit. And then the next thing you know, we've got a bunch of stuff and no way to pay for it.

[51:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Pop.

[51:01] Joe Aaron Reid: Pop. Dirty Pop. Yeah.

[51:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Seriously, Dirty Pop. All right. So then how do we get out of this mess?

[51:09] Joe Aaron Reid: How do we get out of this mess? A lot of Act Two was not the ensemble, I'll tell you that. How do we get out of this mess? I don't know, but I could tell you a lot of gossip. Oh, I can tell you what everybody was doing and who what I think happens and correct me if I'm wrong, is that they think, oh, well, we need to use the gold to pay for all of this stuff. But the truth is, all of the interest in that area has led to a massive investment in their tobacco product that they've been creating from sharecropping. So now all of a sudden, they're making much more money from their sharecropping than before, which is how they then pay for what they had.

[51:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. See, I don't even remember that.

[51:55] Joe Aaron Reid: Look, it probably happens in two lines while you were going to the bathroom. The other thing is that the hidden gold is found by Susan.

[52:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[52:06] Joe Aaron Reid: The dancer. And she does this whole dance. Did she do it by herself or were you guys involved in that?

[52:11] Joe Aaron Reid: Oh, no, she did it all. Well, she danced it by herself, but we had, what was his name? Guy. I can't think of Guy's last name, but he was like a Grammy award-winning blues harmonica player.

[52:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, wow.

[52:26] Joe Aaron Reid: And he was a member of the company. So the dance that she did was all him playing. Like he was kind of like the music of her feet. And so she did this humongous ballet, just her. And I mean, it was such a sight to behold. I mean, and Alina Faye was just like such a beautiful former ABT dancer. I mean, just a beautiful. It's a beautiful moment in dance history, to be honest.

[52:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. That's incredible.

[52:54] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah. Woody and Sharon, the couple that were going to be and then weren't. And then were they actually, you know, Woody comes to his senses and realizes any fool should marry Kate Baldwin if they have a chance.

[53:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I would marry Kate Baldwin.

[53:11] Joe Aaron Reid: Thank you. So Woody and Sharon get married. The senator comes into the wedding and says, you know, and tries to arrest Sharon for witchcraft because it's because of her that he was changed into a black man. Finian, however, steps in and said.

[53:28] Joe Aaron Reid: But he learned his lesson, though, because remember, they sing the baguette, the four black.

[53:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yeah. Talk to us about that.

[53:35] Joe Aaron Reid: It's just an amazing number. I mean, honestly, like because you finally have just four black guys on stage and in hats and canes and, you know, singing about like what it's like to be a black man, you know, and how you deal with society at large like that. And that is really a turning point for the senator, because it's like he's learned to be funny. You know, it's finally his kind of his change of heart moment, which a lot of times is done in musicals, at least is done in like a big kind of ballad. And to have it done in kind of like not quite a barbershop quartet, but in a quartet type uptempo setting with a lot of dancing and intricate movement, it just kind of turns it on its head the way in which it's done and the message at large.

It just it turns it all in its head. And well, the three other guys are bringing him into their community as well. They're make. Yeah, correct. And so we've talked so much about the importance of theater, live theater, but the idea of being with people, right, to connect and to understand where they're coming from.

[54:45] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah, yeah. Finian is the one who ultimately Finian, the dad is the one who steps in and says we can use one of the wishes from the gold to turn the senator back. So now with all of these wishes being used, Og is basically human, like he's so close to being completely mortal. He begs Sharon to be with him. She's like, no, I'm married to Woody now. However, right after Sharon breaks his heart, he sees Susan instead and realizes, oh, now I'm really attracted to her. Is this what it's like to be mortal?

[55:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And we're like, yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Especially for a man. Yeah. Your heartbreak doesn't last as long as your next infatuation. Yeah. And thus begins his 11 o'clock number, which is another one of the most famous songs in the show. When I'm not near the girl I love. I want to read some of these because my gosh, genius. I'm confessing a confession and I hope I'm not verbose when I'm not close to the kiss I cling to. I cling to the kiss that's close. Oh, my gosh. So good. As I'm more and more immortal, I am more and more a case when I'm not facing the face that I fancy. I fancy the face I face. Who needs fireworks, honestly, when you've got fireworks like that? Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Incredible. The ear to hear something like that and to do it in such a funny, quirky way. I just it's genius. So basically, the senator. This is another one of, I guess, the black ketchup moments is that the senator is turned white again, I guess, for learning his lesson. And I think people see that as maybe being black as a punishment and being white as a reward.

[56:40] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah, I mean, I think, look, it's theater and there has to be a suspension of disbelief. And I think that, you know, if you choose to go in looking at it like that, like, we can't change your mind. But I do think that you could also look at it as restoring what was. Was he was a white guy to begin with, expecting him to stay black. Again, I think it's people viewing the show through today's lens versus all we're doing is he learned his lesson. So now he's been restored. I didn't look at I never looked at it that way.

[57:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gotcha. And well, I agree. The last wish that this is not awkward. But I'm glad you feel this. Um, the last wish that finally turns Aug human is that the wish is made that Susan can talk.

[57:33] Joe Aaron Reid: Yes. And so Susan, the amazing dancer finally gets her voice. She ends up with Aug, Woody ends up with Sharon, the senator's white again, and Finian, who unfortunately no longer has his gold, go searching for his next adventure. We it almost feels like it might be a heaven even. Yeah. Right. I mean, that's the vibe that I kind of got, you know, the look to the rainbow. We didn't even talk about that song.

[58:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I know. It's so good.

[58:12] Joe Aaron Reid: But I love how it's I mean, I love the song proper, right, you know, but I think there's something about the reprise. That is what really to me gives it that very heavenly feel like the end of his story is coming. Like this was the adventure to that he had to come on in order for his daughter to find love and for you know, to save a town and to have a senator learn a lesson and to get a dancing mute talking and you know, like, I feel like his job is done. And so yes, he's looking to the rainbow. But that's very much the sense that I got as well, which is my time is done. And I'll be going now. I'll be I'll see you in Glacomora. Yeah, one day. One fine day.

[58:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, it's a bonker show. It is. But like has so much heart and so much perfect music. And a really great integration of dance that I don't know, I'm ready to see a production right now. Yeah. And quite honestly, it's been a while. You know, I think if it's done well, it's done well. And I always think that music that sounds like that deserves some shelf life to be heard.

[59:24] Joe Aaron Reid: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Thank you so much, Joe, for doing this with me. What a great time I've had chatting with you. I loved it. It's, you know, you don't always get to reminisce about, you know, an old show that you were in. And this has just been delightful, truly. So I can't believe how much you remembered. You know, it's funny. It's a lot of it's sense memory. Yeah. Because that's why like, that's why I started singing like, it's hard. It's a bummer. Like, I can remember like, that's your harmony part. What I heard at that moment in time, right? You know, it is it's kind of wild what your body just kind of goes into.

[1:00:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you better email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Please follow us on social media. We're on Twitter, whatever it's called, and Instagram and TikTok. We also have Patreon exclamation point where we will be taking another visit funny enough to the flop shop. So join us for that. We also have our TeePublic store filled with designs. The profits we receive from those purchases goes to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. So take a little trip around that shop. More than anything, so grateful you're part of this wonderful podcasting community. So share it with everyone else so that we can continue to grow our great little Ohana here.

[1:00:48] Joe Aaron Reid: Hey, Joe, how do we follow you? And what's up in your life?

[1:00:53] Joe Aaron Reid: So you can follow me. I'm on pretty much all social media except well, I'm not on TikTok, and I'm not on Twitter anymore. I left that rat's nest.

[1:01:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a dumpster fire.

[1:01:04] Joe Aaron Reid: I am. Yeah. I am at Joe Aaron Reed on Instagram and threads is I think the name that you were looking for. And yeah, Facebook. I'm Joe Aaron Reed. And then yeah, this year, there were some things that were supposed to come out last year that didn't get to come out because of this, the actors and writers strike. So I do have a film that I'm involved in called The Holiday Exchange that'll be coming out later this year. And then I don't know that I'm actually allowed to tell you what it is. But I am on a couple episodes of a very hot HBO show that should be coming out relatively soon, which was supposed to air in the fall, which didn't. So yeah, keep your eyes peeled.

[1:01:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amazing. Yeah, I will. We will keep our eyes fully peeled.

[1:01:53] Joe Aaron Reid: Everybody out there. Thank you so much for listening. And happy Black History Month. Take a listen to Finian's Rainbow as well as any other show that celebrates the amazing Black artists that have been part of our musical theater landscape. And remember, look to the rainbow.