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[0:00] Alison Fraser: You think about what Mama Rose taught Louise or taught her daughters by accident or otherwise, and then you compare that to say what Tessitura taught to Louise, actually with quite a bit of love and patience and eye contact instead of just barking. You know what I mean?

[0:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. She really was the teacher.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, I'm so excited, you guys. We are discussing one of the best musicals of all time, GYPSY, and I'm wearing my Jerome Robbins t-shirt in celebration. From the beginning of this podcast, I've said my trifecta of favorite shows are Fiddler on the Roof, GYPSY, and West Side Story, all of which have my friend Jerry in common, who is honestly a friend to no one. But today, we complete that holy trinity, and oh my goodness, do we have an incredible guest to join us. Not only did she star as Tessitura in the 2008 Broadway revival of GYPSY, she has an entire career full of fascinating, complex characters that quite possibly have Mama Rose to thank.

She originated the role of Trina off-Broadway in both March of the Falsettos and In Trousers. Her first Tony nomination came from originating the roles of Josephine and Monica. Am I getting that right? It's Josephine, right?

[1:46] Alison Fraser: I think so, yeah, yeah.

[1:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In Romance, Romance, which, by the way, The Night It Had to End, one of my all-time favorite songs. Hands down, Alison's rendition is the best. Her second Tony nomination came in the form of everyone's favorite Martha in The Secret Garden. She toured the country as Madame Morrible in Wicked, not to mention countless plays, films, TV appearances. Everyone, please welcome the great Alison Fraser.

[2:12] Alison Fraser: Yay! Hello, everybody. Yay! Hi.

[2:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. So excited you're here.

[2:19] Alison Fraser: Excellent.

[2:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're jumping right in. There is no way that the first time you came in contact with GYPSY was 2008, right?

[2:27] Alison Fraser: Oh, no. I had known GYPSY. I had seen it. I had seen Kind Daily and I think I saw Angela Lansbury. I never did it. I never was in it before Arthur asked me to do it. So I love the movie.

[2:46] Alison Fraser: Sure, sure. I know that's controversial with Ross Russell singing it, but we're not singing it.

[2:52] Alison Fraser: We're not singing it. And it's a wonderful story. I've read a lot about GYPSY Rosalie. And once I got the part of Tessie Tura, I don't know. Arthur must have had, Arthur Laurents was a friend of mine. I had met him out at the George Street Playhouse.

[3:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you had originated a role in a play of his as well, right?

[3:16] Alison Fraser: I did. I did. That was after, I think that was, no, was it before? Was it after GYPSY?

[3:22] Alison Fraser: I think it was before GYPSY. Yeah, it was late, great Shirley Knight. But I had met Arthur Laurents out at the George Street Playhouse because I was very good friends with David Saint, who is the artistic director there. And David had directed me in a show that I love called Gun Metal Blues, a film noir musical that I had done great success in Philadelphia. And so I proposed to David, hey, why don't you do it at the George Street Playhouse? And he did, and we just had a great time. And I don't know why Arthur asked me to do it, but when I, to do GYPSY, because when he saw me in Gun Metal Blues, at one point I was playing like a mall. I played four different characters that ultimately you find out it's a woman who's turned like schizophrenic because of a childhood trauma.

And I had a little pistol on a garter on my leg and a slit, it was very, very noir. And afterwards, you know, little tiny Arthur's like, that's the sexiest thing I've ever seen in my life. Okay. And so we started becoming friends, but also because his lovely husband, Tom, was suffering from cancer at the same time and at the same place that my lovely husband, Rusty, was suffering from cancer. And they were both at Sloan Kettering, and they both had the same doctor. So we started becoming friends. And, you know, he'd like, say, let's go out to dinner tonight. You know, let's go. Okay, fine. And one night he said, I think I want you to do Tessitura. And I, you know, people say stuff all the time, and you know, oh, yeah, is this really going to happen?

Patti LuPone, really? I thought you guys were arch enemies. And it's like, you know, you kind of take it with a grain of salt. But sure enough, it happened. And I didn't audition, which is a good thing, because I'm a terrible auditioner. I'm just bad at it. I just find it such a difficult process to do something you love to do. And I hate the process so much. I'm trying to get over that. But I'm at the end of my career, not at the beginning. So it's okay.

[5:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's never too late.

[5:48] Alison Fraser: But he asked me to do it. The guy wrote the greatest musical ever. I mean, that's Gypsy, isn't it? Doesn't everybody say that's the best one? And, you know, it was a wild ride, because I had never particularly wanted to do one of the strippers in Gypsy. I object the whole, oh, look at the kooky old stripper. And I felt it was a little misogynistic and ageist, to tell you the truth. And I'm like, that kind of presentational, oh, look, all the funny old broads are going to shake it up and face the audience. And bump it. I was just having a lot of trouble. Yeah, you know, and it's like, to me, I have to make my people on stage real. So I started thinking about how do you deep dive into Tessie Tura?

And it turns out, she was a real person. I have a Tessie Tura poster that my uncle, my wonderful uncle got for me. It was probably around like 1920 or something, and in the red light district of Boston. And, you know, she was pretty covered up. She wasn't as naked as I was in that show, by all means. But I just realized, this can be a human being. And I read the book, the Gypsy Rosalie book that the musical was pretty much based on. And I realized that Tessie Tura was more of a sister to Gypsy Rosalie than June Havoc ever was. And as a matter of fact, she retired, and she became her, you know, like lady in waiting on tour. And of course, she would also repair her clothes and get her gloves ready and to shine her shoes.

And she was her assistant. Yeah, her like Thelma Ritter. So I just thought, okay, I can do this, but I have to make this woman human. And I realized that this is a woman who has aged out of the only way she can possibly make a living. And she's not going to have very much more time. She's completely uneducated. She has absolutely no money, no family, no husband, no kids, nothing. She's got nothing. And it's the middle of the depression. She's a desperate person. And she knows her clock is ticking.

[8:18] Alison Fraser: And she's in a business whose clock is ticking as well. I mean, she sees the writing on the wall.

[8:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. Maudville's dying. Maudville's dying. My Tessie Tura was never going to get to be a movie star, believe me. And oddly enough, the more angry I got, the more Arthur liked it. She was just over it. And that didn't mean she wasn't funny. Because it's like it's such a superbly written script. It's like, we're in the Vatican. I mean, that's all you have to do. And I did cream my voice with it. Oh, my God. My voice has never been the same since. But it was an interesting process because we were such good friends. You know, I thought, oh, this is going to be a breeze. But there were a couple of, like, you know, tough moments with him. I mean, Arthur can be very, could be very tough. And he always kind of takes a whipping boy.

And for a while, it was Tony Yazbeck. And then it became me. Because when I approach extant material, I like to pretend I'm getting to originate it because I want to bring something new to it. And I just said, hey, you know what? I think David Saint was his assistant director or, you know, co-director, assistant director. And I said, David, do you think he'd let me try a Texan accent? You know, I've kind of done it. And she was Tessie Tura, the Texas twirler. And I'm like, do you think he'd let me try it? And like, for the first three days, he seemed to really like it. And then on the fourth day, death stare. Go back to what it was. And he didn't want anything new. And I was like, I got nothing now. I got nothing. But we worked it out. And we worked through our problems.

[10:19] Alison Fraser: But I have heard, you know, I've heard from two females that they had to go to therapy because of Arthur Laurents. And then one very attractive male who said, like, he was a total sweetheart. So, like, you never knew what you were going to get maybe with him in the room. Again, because we had a real friendship. I mean, he took me to see West Side Story a year after, you know, Gypsy was over. Hey, you want to go see West Side Story? And with you, I get to sit with you seeing West Side Story. It was sort of, it was a thrilling entree into this wonderful world of musical comedy glamour that I had fallen in love with as a kid. But oddly enough, Gypsy was not one of my top five favorites. I was a Music Man person. I was a My Fair Lady. I loved it. I loved Hair. I loved Gigi. Oh, my God.

[11:27] Alison Fraser: It's so romantic. The soundtrack of Oliver. So, those were my five albums. We didn't have any money. So, you know, I'd get them used at a bookstore or a library sale. And, you know, last month, I have a little house out in Shawnee, Pennsylvania. And there's a lovely little community theater there called the Shawnee Playhouse. And they were doing My Fair Lady. And one of the guys that does occasional work for me said, Hey, my niece is in, you want to go? And I'm like, oh.

[12:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a long commitment.

[12:02] Alison Fraser: I went. And first of all, it was so thrilling because I knew every lyric from when I was six or seven years old. But also to see people avocationally loving what they're doing on a stage as opposed to, ah, it's the competitive world of professional theater. And, you know, when's the arts are going to, like, go ballistic on me? Am I going to get fired? And, oh, my God, I missed an entrance. He's going to fire me. And, you know, it's constantly living in fear. Oh, and Boyd Gaines was the whipping boy at one point, too. And it's like the nicest person.

[12:39] Alison Fraser: Oh, the nicest person in the world. Probably one of the best actors. And I'm like, well, at least I'm in good company. But we worked it all out. And, you know, he did say very nice things about my Tessitura. He said it was his favorite Tessitura.

[12:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Work.

[12:58] Alison Fraser: OK, so I do have to ask you a couple of, like, background. Where did you grow up?

[13:04] Alison Fraser: I grew up in Natick, Massachusetts. And that's a town outside of, like, my hometown. And I grew up in a suburb called, like,

[13:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we are diving into the world of GYPSY, one of the best-written musicals of all time.

[13:42] Alison Fraser: I couldn't agree more! GYPSY is such a rich tapestry of storytelling and character development.

[14:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I’m thrilled to have you here to discuss it, Alison. You played Tessie Tura in the 2008 Broadway revival, right?

[14:42] Alison Fraser: Yes, I did! It was an incredible experience, and being part of such a legendary show was truly special.

[15:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: GYPSY tells the story of Gypsy Rose Lee and her tumultuous relationship with her mother, Mama Rose. What do you think makes their story resonate so deeply with audiences?

[15:42] Alison Fraser: I think it’s the universal themes of ambition, sacrifice, and the complicated nature of family dynamics. Mama Rose is such a tragic figure, and her drive for success often overshadows her love for her daughters.

[16:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. The complexity of their relationship is what makes the musical feel timeless.

[16:42] Alison Fraser: And the music! Stephen Sondheim’s lyrics and Jule Styne’s score are just phenomenal. Each song adds layers to the characters.

[16:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of songs, do you have a favorite from the show?

[17:12] Alison Fraser: I love "Everything's Coming Up Roses." It’s such a powerful anthem of hope and determination, even in the face of adversity.

[17:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That song really encapsulates Mama Rose’s character. It’s both uplifting and heartbreaking.

[18:12] Alison Fraser: Exactly! It’s that duality that makes GYPSY so compelling.

[18:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the character of Gypsy Rose Lee herself is fascinating. She evolves so much throughout the story.

[19:12] Alison Fraser: Yes, she does. Gypsy’s journey from being a reluctant performer to embracing her identity is incredibly poignant.

[19:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It’s a classic story of finding one’s voice, which is something many people can relate to.

[20:12] Alison Fraser: Definitely. And the way the show portrays the world of vaudeville adds another layer of richness to the narrative.

[20:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Vaudeville was such a unique and vibrant part of American entertainment history.

[21:12] Alison Fraser: It really was! And GYPSY captures that essence beautifully while also telling a deeply personal story.

[21:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think that’s what makes it stand out among other musicals. It’s both a reflection of its time and a timeless tale.

[22:12] Alison Fraser: Absolutely. And the character of Mama Rose is one of the most complex roles in musical theatre.

[22:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So true! The depth of her character allows for such a range of performances.

[23:12] Alison Fraser: Each actress who takes on that role brings something unique to it, which keeps the character fresh and exciting.

[23:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it’s a testament to the writing that it can be interpreted in so many ways.

[24:12] Alison Fraser: Yes! Arthur Laurents really crafted something special with this musical.

[24:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I’m so glad we could discuss GYPSY today. It’s a show that deserves to be celebrated.

[25:12] Alison Fraser: Thank you for having me! It’s been a joy to share my thoughts on such an iconic piece of theatre.

[25:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to our listeners, if you enjoyed this episode, be sure to check out our episode on WEST SIDE STORY with Hector Guerrero.

[26:12] Alison Fraser: Yes, definitely! There’s so much to explore in the world of musical theatre.

[26:24] Alison Fraser: How can you be close without a premature? Wasn't she married to him? You know what? I could be totally wrong. I don't know. I think that sex has always been an entree into a show business life. But the thing with Gypsy Rosalie is that, you know, she also wrote books. She wrote her own plays. Didn't she write like Star and Garter or was one of the contributors to that? A huge, huge show. What is it? The Canary Murders? Is that what it's called? Oh, I don't know that one. Yeah. I mean, she could have been anything. But because of her no-account mother, she was stuck in this really down and dirty world. And she made lemonade out of lemons. I mean, she really did. And she really had precious little to do with her mother, I believe, after the takedown.

Well, it's interesting. When you look at her memoir, she wrote her memoir like a play. I think even the chapters are called scenes, like Act Two, Scene One. She, from the get, once again, because she was such a smart cookie, was, I think, really looking at her life and realizing this is an epic story that should be a movie, should be a play, should be something. The thing about it is that it goes back to Greek mythology. There is absolutely a reason that Arthur called it not a musical comedy. He called it a musical fable. And what it is, basically, I learned this at Fordham. I wrote an essay called Titanomachy on the Great White Way, because I realized you had to destroy your mother, just like Zeus destroyed his father, Cronus. It's eat or be eaten. And both Rose and Cronus were not killed. It was worse. They were banished. I guess we can end the episode. Thank you, everyone, for listening. That's epic.

[28:45] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. Even Sondheim referred to this story as Oedipal. It's like Oedipus with sequins. I think it goes further than that. I think it goes to the initial fight for all power. And that is the huge fight between Cronus and Zeus. And Zeus won. You know why? Because Zeus brought all of his brothers and sisters back from the dead, because Cronus ate the babies, because one of the prophets said, one of your children is going to kill you. But Zeus was hidden away. So then Zeus decided he was going to take over the universe. And he said, I'm going to go and get my sisters and brothers who were all the other gods and goddesses or six of them or something. And he had allies. And I think that Tessie was one of Gypsy's allies. I am obsessed with this.

[29:52] Alison Fraser: And I think that you have to build a supportive group around you in any play that you do, in any new job that you have. You have to reach out and go, okay, who's going to be my support system? We know that Rose was not Gypsy's support system.

[30:16] Jeff Parsons: Support system, right.

[30:18] Alison Fraser: No, we know that. We know that she was very, very harmful and very hurtful to her. But she prevailed. She prevailed because she's a smart cookie. Do you know what's interesting is, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because I'll just fast forward through this really fast. Gypsy Rosalie ends up selling her story to a little producer by the name of David Merrick, anyone? Who's a young, famous producer at the time. He hasn't become the abominable showman quite yet. But he and Leland Hayward work together on producing this piece. They bring in Arthur Lawrence. They know it's going to be a star vehicle for Ethel Merman playing the role of the mother. And really the end for Arthur in the whole piece, because he wasn't really looking forward to it, but he realized this idea of exactly what you're talking about, generational fighting.

I mean, the story is old as time, right? That that was really the end for him. So what's interesting, though, is that Rose, Mama Rose, is a monster, but she's a sympathetic monster in this musical. And from what I understand, when the musical came out, the real June, June Havoc, who went on to become a big Hollywood star, was incredibly angry at how everybody, including Gypsy Rosalie, was shown in the musical. I mean, Gypsy Rosalie loved it. She was like, I think it's getting at the spirit of the law. But June was really, really upset, and lots of lawsuits, so on and so forth. I know that's one of the other reasons why it was called a musical fable, was to say this isn't the letter of things.

[32:08] Jeff Parsons: She was treated very badly in that musical. She was dismissed. She was the bat. She was the teenage runaway.

[32:18] Alison Fraser: Yeah. I mean, the reason that she left was because of a mental and emotional abuse, not because she was spoiled and wanted to run away.

[32:29] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. Though we think of Mama Rose as being this crazy stage mother, in reality, she was much worse.

[32:38] Alison Fraser: Oh, well, didn't she kill somebody? She did, right?

[32:42] Jeff Parsons: She was known as a killer by her ex-husband. One of her ex-husbands called her a killer, and he meant it literally. He believed that she had shot somebody.

[32:54] Alison Fraser: And buried in the yard, right?

[32:58] Jeff Parsons: Probably. I'm tired.

[33:00] Alison Fraser: Along with the Chinese food, you know? She sounds like kind of a monster.

[33:09] Jeff Parsons: And yet, Arthur crafted this character that is ultimately, I think, more tragic than anything.

[33:16] Alison Fraser: Well, I think he was really smart to do that, because she is such an unlikable character that the takedown at the end, even though you don't really like this woman, you feel sorry for her, because she's destroyed. It's like Frankenstein's monster took her down, and that's Gypsy Rosalie.

[33:43] Jeff Parsons: Look what you created, Mama.

[33:45] Alison Fraser: That's right. That's right. What's cool is that Arthur was the one who brought in Sondheim, because they had just done West Side Story together. Merman, who had signed on to the project, didn't want a young composer to be writing her score, so she kind of vetoed the idea of Sondheim writing words and music. That didn't sit very well with Mr. Sondheim, and he wanted to leave the project. He was encouraged to stay by his mentor, Oscar Hammerstein II, because Hammerstein thought writing for a star is a very different skill set, and it's one that you haven't done yet, and I think it would be really, really great for you. That combination of working for someone as old school as Ethel Merman, but doing it with someone as new school as Arthur Lawrence, right, I think is this perfect recipe.

[34:47] Alison Fraser: Oh, I think so. Well, it's the juxtaposition of the modern and traditional. Totally. And then you add into that Julie Stein, who is the composer they ultimately brought in. Now, Julie Stein is a fascinating composer in musical theater history, because I don't feel like he really has a persona. He, for me, is known as the guy who writes incredibly popular songs that happen to be from musicals, and people might not know they are from musicals, right? Make Someone Happy. Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend. People know these songs and might not realize that they play huge parts of musical theater history. So then to bring him into the mix, I think Sondheim, at least according to what I've read, wasn't sure how that collaboration was going to go, because he was maybe more presentational, to use your words. But that was another great juxtaposition of him knowing exactly how to write for Merman, and then Sondheim knowing how to write the psychology of these characters.

[35:54] Alison Fraser: Absolutely. But Julie Stein threatened to quit at one point, too, didn't he? I think, look, any musical that Jerome Robbins is overseeing probably hasn't quit. They were going to cut Little Lamb, and he said, Little Lamb goes, I go, really? I don't know that one. Very delicate little song. That's not that you're razzmatazzed, you know? No. I can't remember what writer said it, but maybe it was Frank Rich said that there is no song in Julie Stein's repertoire as angry as some people, and there's no song as gentle in Sondheim's repertoire as Little Lamb.

[36:37] Jeff Parsons: Right. No, that makes sense. But I think there is a song that's more angry than some people. What do you think it is?

[36:44] Alison Fraser: I think it's Everything's Coming Up Roses.

[36:51] Jeff Parsons: Can we... The way that Patti LuPone did that, it was just...

[36:59] Alison Fraser: Terrifying.

[37:02] Jeff Parsons: ...revelatory and terrifying, and that, to me, was the huge monster. It's so funny, because I have kids come in, and they're going to do Everything's Coming Up Roses.

[37:15] Alison Fraser: With jazz squares.

[37:17] Jeff Parsons: Unless you add that desperation and fury, it's not a good song. It's not. But I mean, it's all well and good to hear the clarion voice of Ethel Merman, but what Patti did with that song, she was terrifying.

[37:42] Alison Fraser: Absolutely. The incredible thing about Everything's Coming Up Roses, number one, is that that phrase didn't exist before Stephen Sondheim wrote that lyric. Everybody uses it, regardless of if they've seen Gypsy or not. He created that phrase for the song, and the brilliance of it is that, yes, Everything's Coming Up Roses, as in roses are coming up from the ground, but you take out that E and replace it with an apostrophe, and now it's Everything's Coming Up Roses. Roses turn. The brilliance of that. That, to me, is the quintessence of Mama Rose, her fierce determination and unwillingness to fail. I was a lucky girl, watching that every night.

[38:31] Jeff Parsons: I bet. This is what I wanted to ask you next, because you said you saw Tyne Daly in the early part of the 90s. I think I saw Linda Levin, too.

[38:41] Alison Fraser: Oh, yeah. So many incredible women have played this role. Anything stand out to you? Of course, I think Patti was devastatingly perfect. I got to tell you, I'm a big Bernadette fan. I love her.

[38:56] Jeff Parsons: Hot take. I love it. Tell me.

[38:59] Alison Fraser: I loved her. I had heard, oh, she's having vocal problems, and oh, Arthur wasn't happy, and stuff like that. But then when I saw her do Rose's Turn on the Tony Awards, I'm like, call me crazy, but that was great. And I went and saw it, because of that. Here's something that I read about Bernadette. Somebody mentioned that Bernadette was probably the first actress to completely reinvent Mama Rose from what it was via Ethel Merman. And I thought that that was actually a pretty accurate statement.

[39:36] Alison Fraser: I'd go for that, yeah. Because she was little and sexy and she used her sexuality, which is undeniable. And I think that that's a big part. She's been married three times, right? And also, you really saw that she wanted it for herself. She wanted it for herself. And you even saw it before Rose's turn, because she dressed provocatively. There was something off-putting about it. You know, these women, the female mother monsters that are competitive with their daughters once their daughters become of a sexual age.

[40:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's interesting. Now, I think this is a great time to sneak in that GYPSY originally opened on Broadway in May of 1959. It was the 1959-60 season. It ran for almost two years. And despite its many revivals that we've just mentioned, that original run is the longest it's had on Broadway. That being said, even though it ran for two years, that original production didn't win Best Musical at the Tony Awards that year. And that is really saying something, because the 1960 Tony Awards is the only year where two musicals tied for the Best Musical prize. So not only did GYPSY not win, it didn't even come in second. The Sound of Music, which, listeners, don't you dare roll your eyes.

I love that show. And Fiorello Exclamation Point, which was, besides winning Best Musical, one of the only musicals to win the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Those were the two shows that tied for Best Musical at the Tonys. Now, I'm going to ante up even more and say that not only did GYPSY not win either of the Best Musical prizes, it won zero Tony Awards. Jerome Robbins lost to Michael Kidd. The Best Actress competition was stacked because you had Mary Martin in The Sound of Music, Merman in Gypsy, and Carol Burnett in Once Upon a Mattress. So I've been thinking in preparation for this recording, like, how could a show this complex and tuneful with many of the traditional elements that we've talked about walk away just completely empty-handed?

And here's what I think. There aren't very many musicals, especially at that time, that were just about family dynamics. Now, I know I just got done saying Sound of Music, Von Trapp Family, yes, but that musical is about a family that is being threatened by Nazis and the entire World War, you know? And then take Fiorello Exclamation Point, which has, you know, nothing to do with family. It's all about political commentary. So I think that the stakes of this subject matter, which feel incredibly high to me, in comparison with Nazis and politics, like, I think people took it for granted when it first came out. I think people took GYPSY for granted, which then makes me really eager to see what this new revival with Audra is going to be like and how it's going to be received.

Like, I wonder if everyone remembers that in its mammoth storytelling it's still just about a dysfunctional family, and is that enough? Or is it now all of a sudden going to be about more than just a dysfunctional family because you have the casting of Audra, you know? Like, I don't know, and I can't wait to see how it all goes down.

[43:19] Alison Fraser: With the time left, I'd love to talk through a couple moments in the show that I would love your perspective on. Because the show begins in Vaudeville, and it's not just any part of Vaudeville. I believe we're in Seattle. Shout out, Pacific Northwest. And it's the end of Vaudeville. Vaudeville is dying. And yet Rose, this mother, is manipulating, fighting, scratching, clawing her way to make her children stars in the theater. Child star. Oh, just the one. You're right. Because June is the star. Louise, who is the second child, is the back end of the horse. Mamou Mamou. I mean, I would say there's definitely child abuse here.

[44:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course.

[44:10] Alison Fraser: You're right.

[44:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course. Oh, no, absolutely there is child abuse. I mean, even with the one that she likes.

[44:17] Alison Fraser: Oh, absolutely. And you know, I have strange feelings about children in shows anyways.

[44:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[44:27] Alison Fraser: I hope that the kids really want to do it. And I know that there were some kids in Secret Garden that were not happy. Not Daisy or John, but a couple of the understudies. It's like, you know, there was one little girl, her hair had been dyed so much. The wig person wouldn't, said, I can't take responsibility for this child's hair, because the hair was so brittle.

[44:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[44:52] Alison Fraser: And it's like, that's an 11-year-old kid, man. And I had just had a baby. So I think that all of my maternal feelings were coming out. And I think that that's why Martha was such a good part for me at that time. Secret Garden, because, what was it, like '91 or something like that? Because my baby had been born at '90.

[45:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[45:16] Alison Fraser: And it was like, I was very, so protective of all the children, especially John and Daisy.

[45:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, see, that's beautiful. But I guess that was going to be my question is, did you start performing early? Did you have parental protections?

[45:32] Alison Fraser: No, no, just in school. And school was, until I got to high school, which was a very, I had a very sophisticated drama department headed by, you know, basically, you know, Jerry Dyer, who, you know, sort of discovered Billy Finn and me, very sophisticated stuff that we really shouldn't have been doing, like Marat Saad, and the Trojan Women. And it's like,

[46:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Good heavens.

[46:01] Alison Fraser: Really? Okay, so you're 14 years old, and you know, you're sitting on a guy's lap. You're in the weight of the world. What's the use of a revolution without General, General Confucius? You know, it's like,

[46:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's hilarious.

[46:16] Alison Fraser: Yeah. No, I was not a kid that was pushed into anything. I was singing, but only because I loved the musicals so much, those five records that I told you about. And also, I think I had an Edie Gourmet album. I tried to sing like her because I found her to be a very exciting singer.

[46:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I feel the same way. If nothing else, I will always feel lucky because I'm so grateful for my personal childhood. And I feel like one of the things we walk away from with Gypsy is like the importance of parents, of families, of protecting children. And I think about my mom, she was very motivating and very supportive of me pursuing the arts. She would always tell this story about how in school, she was like, drawing on a poster or, you know, like creating some sort of artwork that was supposed to be hung in the classroom. And the teacher came over and said, Well, it looks like we found out who doesn't have any artistic ability in the class. And it was one of those messages that was given at the right time to just completely shut down all possibility.

And so I always felt that I don't think my mom was a stage mom in any shape or sense of the word. But I do feel like she was always fiercely protective of my creativity, because she didn't want anybody to rob that from me, like she had felt it had been robbed from her.

[47:54] Alison Fraser: Yeah, it's just disgusting. It's like when I teach at Ford, it's not my job to judge these young people that have chosen to come into that class. So there's only 12 every year. And it's like, they're definitely different levels of expertise. But each and every one of them has something special about them. And that's what I'm trying to get at, you know, and to make them feel really good about being able to experiment, being able to fail, being able to make a mistake, and then go back and do it right. Yeah, it's quite, quite thrilling. Were you a professional child actor?

[48:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I was like a farm boy, like a farm boy, very much like speaking of, I have a moo cow. So the way that Rose is able to finally get June into some sort of performing mode is through Herbie. We haven't really touched on him. Who is Herbie? He used to be an agent, right? He's trying to get out of the business when we first meet him. But then Rose kind of sucks him right back in. Why do you think that is? What is making him sick?

[49:10] Alison Fraser: I think she has an enormous sexual appeal. I think that for her time, she was probably very forward with her sexuality. I'm sure that she had no problem whatsoever sleeping with guys without being married. And I think that's how she managed to get these three guys, and there were probably a lot more of them along the way. I always think of Herbie as being a little bit sad, a little bit disappointed in life, a little, dare I say it, low energy, tired, and it's just letting the woman do the driving. Because God knows she's in a driving force. And Boyd did such a lovely job of it. You just felt like his humanity so deeply. He wasn't like the funny schlub. He was a man that had gone through pain.

And there's an old movie called Applause, which is about vaudeville. And I know that Arthur read that book, because I actually think that he loaned it to me. And there's a beautiful old movie, and there's exactly the relationship of Mama Rose, the daughter, Gypsy Rose, and Herbie. And Herbie, in that play, or that book, he actually really protects the girl. He's almost obsessed with her, and you think, oh my God, is he going to sleep with that little girl? And it turns out he's just protecting her. So I think that he, that character, who I do regard as very, very Herbie-like, he is a sympathetic character. And I think you're actually rooting for him to get away from that awful woman.

[51:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Well, and I almost think that one of the things that, while Rose's energy for life, zeal, sexuality, maybe pulls Herbie in, I think what keeps him there are the children. Because I think he sees, without me, there's nobody looking out for these kids.

[51:22] Alison Fraser: Yeah, but then look at the huge failure. Look at the huge failure of baby June running away and getting married at 14. I mean, devastating, devastating. And you can, you know, you just watched Boyd just crumple, and you watched Cloudy just go for the gonads. You know, it's like, she just, she reached down into her body and summoned this superhuman strength.

[51:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Because you're exactly right. June ends up leaving the group. She leaves with Tulsa. So then Rose turns her sights on Louise and says, you know, I've ignored you, but you're actually now going to be the star. And it's out of desperation and out of this ferocity. She has nothing left. It's her only shot.

[52:21] Alison Fraser: In the second act, there's the, of course, the famous song, Together Wherever We Go. And I wanted to, I wanted to share this. There's the great verse, wherever I go, I know he goes. Wherever I go, I know she goes. No fits, no fights, no feuds, and no egos, amigos, together. Sondheim shared this story, and I just want to read it real fast. He said, Julie and I had written half a dozen songs when one day Ethel Merman called us to say that her...

[52:48] Alison Fraser: My friend Cole Porter was deeply depressed and might be cheered up if we played him the score. We happily agreed and a few evenings later we were invited along with Ethel to his Waldorf Astoria Towers apartment. He had had both legs amputated, the result of many operations resulting from a riding accident he had suffered in the 1930s. After dinner, Julie and I played and sang what we had written and when I got to the word amigos in the first release of Together Wherever We Go, I heard a gasp of delight in the corner of the room. Mr. Porter had been caught by surprise. He hadn't anticipated the quadruple rhyme. Needless to say, surprising a pro is one of the greatest joys a writer can experience and this pro not only was a master of surprising rhymes, he often sprinkled his lyrics with foreign words and phrases as markers of his cosmopolitan style.

Anytime I need an ego boost, I conjure up that gasp. It may well be the high point of my lyric writing life. Oh, that's lovely. Isn't that so sweet? Once again, from an interesting point in the play where now it's Louise, Mama Rose, and Herbie who are trying to make a go at this thing. But do you have any of those little moments that you think about in your life whenever you need a lift? Because I know you've been through some stuff in your life. I should really think about that. I remember the first time I held an album in my hand that I was on and I was thinking, oh my God, it was in trousers. And I just I thought it was like magical, like, oh my God, I'm on it. And, you know, to this day, it's hugely popular, that musical.

If you go online and just type in in trousers fan art, you have an entire generation of kids way younger than you, you know, like 13, 14, 15 years old, sitting in science class, you know, trying to draw what they think Chip Zion and me and Mary looked like, you know, I started corresponding with them because I was so fascinated by the fact that these kids are obsessed with something that happened so many like it was 19, almost 50 years ago, you know, 45, 50 years ago. And, you know, they draw like me in the original in trousers. And I say, well, you know, that's not really what I wore. Would you like to see a picture? And they're like, do you have pictures? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I have I have all the contact sheets for some reason. But it was just the most magical thing to hold that fuchsia album in my hand and say, that's me and to know that people are still listening to it. Yeah, that's the thing.

[55:53] Alison Fraser: Yeah, I think when I get done in the dumps, I have to think, Oh, I have a body of work. That is interesting. You know, I, I've had wonderful composers, Taylor, there's their musicals to me. I've had wonderful playwrights like Aaron Mark, who wrote squeamish for me. And it's so amazing that art comes out of your relationship to an artist, you know, Billy Finn, Chip and I were sitting there. And he asked me and chip to improv about breakfast. And I remember saying, pass the sugar, please. And then he wrote the song pass the sugar, please. Yeah. And to, to be part of the origination of that, I think seminal piece of theater is just incredible to me. Yeah. How special. Okay, so act two, Rose, Louise, Herbie, they're trying to keep that going, right?

The only thing worse than the act is vaudeville itself. And our three amigos end up in a burlesque house, which was, you know, like vaudeville to a certain degree, but with stripping and dirty jokes. And this particular burlesque house that they end up in is rough. We've got the three strippers, of course, the amazing Tessie Tura, which we've talked so much about. Mazepa and Electra, each of the women have their gimmicks for their strip act and teach Louise, you know, kind of the ropes of how things work in burlesque. Herbie is mortified that they're even in this place. And Rose is like, it's fine. We're living the dream. Then, of course, the moment comes when the guy in charge needs a new stripper.

And Rose, desperate to stay in show business, volunteers her daughter. Now this completely destroys Herbie and he walks out. He can no longer stand by Rose making these decisions based, you know, kind of whoring out her daughter. In doing so, Louise becomes Gypsy Rose Lee, puts the Ts in strip Ts. And I mean, careful what you wish for, right? This all becomes an existential threat for Mama Rose. She really can't handle the success of her daughter, especially since it's tied to her sexuality in a way. Now, Allison, I know that you throughout your career have had a lot of connections with Tennessee Williams women characters works, which I'm sure is endlessly fascinating. Do you see any connections with a character like Mama Rose and Tennessee Williams?

[58:35] Alison Fraser: Well, Tennessee Williams main women characters, like Blanche is obviously very fragile. She's very fragile mentally. She's, you know, she goes to an insane asylum at the end of the show. I think that he was paying homage to his sister who was mentally ill. And I believe that she had lobotomy ultimately. I mean, look at the two women in Suddenly Last Summer. I mean, the mother is just horrific. But the daughter is, not the daughter, you know, the Elizabeth Taylor, she is very, very fragile. So then by the end of Gypsy, when Mama Rose has her breakdown, does that come from fragility? Or what do you think that comes from? Is it maybe more of an awakening? It's a break. It has to be a breakdown, right?

That's certainly how it seems to be written. Yeah, but I don't think it's a fragile breakdown. I think it's an apocalyptic breakdown. That's a great definition. I don't. I think she's broken. And, you know, just like, you know, Mama's got it. She's actually, the record is skipping in her brain. Her brain, the electricity is going fatutsed, you know? So, I guess she did continue to live, but I think she was a broken woman after that. That scene, that freaking scene that Arthur wrote for the two of them right before the breakdown is just maybe the all time greatest scene in musical theater, where she's like, who did I do all of this for, you know? And I don't know, when Mama Rose says that, when she tells Louise, well, then who did I do all of this for?

I don't know what she was expecting Louise to say, but Gypsy, I keep going back and forth between Gypsy and Louise. I hope you all understand who I'm talking about. She says very honestly, I thought you were doing it for me. And how devastating, how devastating that is. She says plainly, for me, for me, for me, she's admitting she's a malignant narcissist. The children were tools, tools in the toolbox. They were useful. And then the fact that Gypsy Rose Lee surpassed, surpassed anything that Mama Rose had ever even thought about. She was multi-millionaires, time when, you know, it wasn't that easy to do.

[1:01:36] Alison Fraser: So then what's your read on the end, the scene post breakdown, where Gypsy comes back in? I mean, is it a reconciliation? Is it resignment? What do you think? No, it's neither. She's not going to allow her mother to be part of her life anymore. Not in any kind of a meaningful way. She is done with her mother. She's done. You know, she has her own brutal streak, and she learned from the best. And she'll be polite. She'll be civil. But she knows she's won. And she will fly. And that's why it's called Gypsy and not Mama Rose, in my opinion.

[1:02:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go. Alison, thank you so much for doing this with me. My gosh, what a freaking pleasure. I'm sorry about the technical glitches I was doing.

[1:02:30] Alison Fraser: You're fine.

[1:02:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget, we are on social media. We're on TikTok. We're on Instagram. We're on X at Amusical Podcast. But even more importantly, come visit us on Patreon exclamation point. That's patreon.com slash amusicalpodcast, where for only $1 a month, you get bonus episodes. You've got some exciting stuff coming up, including next month's latest edition of Musical Theatre Trivia Night. We also have our playlist on Spotify that has a song from each musical. I might be asking for help from our Patreon subscribers, or even our social media on which song should represent Gypsy on that playlist.

We've got our TeePublic store with great designs. The profits we receive from those designs is donated to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. More than anything, everyone, please know I'm so grateful you're part of this beautiful podcasting community. That makes me very, very grateful.

[1:03:39] Alison Fraser: Do you have anything you want to share, any social media, anything you want to plug that's coming up? You know, if anybody wants to contact me, I'm at the Alison Frazier Instagram and Alison Frazier Facebook, Alison Frazier Twitter. Oh, what do we call it now? X? Yeah, I'm easy to find.

[1:04:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amazing, amazing. If anybody has any questions at all, absolutely.

[1:04:07] Alison Fraser: Well, thank you. Yes, if you have any fan art for any musicals, I'm interested in seeing those. Also, I always love seeing your ghost signs that you post. My sister, ghost signs are so awesome. My sister has been doing paper dolls of me and my shows for years and years and years.

[1:04:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Stop it.

[1:04:27] Alison Fraser: And I have the cutest Gypsy paper dolls. She's so cute. She actually gave Tessie a robe.

[1:04:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you, because a girl gets cold.

[1:04:40] Alison Fraser: And a day dress. So she had, yeah, she's really, really cute. But instead of her being in a little bikini set, like, you know, I had like the swan feathers and stuff. Laurie has me in pasties.

[1:04:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But at least she got a robe.

[1:05:00] Alison Fraser: Oh, that's amazing. So if anybody wants to see the paper, maybe I'll put them up someday.

[1:05:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, please. When the episode comes out, I'll send you a message. And if you can post them and tag us, we would all love to see them.

[1:05:11] Alison Fraser: That would be amazing. Why don't you email me and tell me what to tag and stuff like that. And that itself, I'm very terrible at self-promotion, I gotta say.

[1:05:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, that's okay.

[1:05:21] Alison Fraser: That's all right. That's why we're here to pull it out of you.

[1:05:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I hope I didn't say anything in my actions.

[1:05:27] Alison Fraser: No, absolutely not. Thank you again.

[1:05:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you, thank you, thank you. Everyone out there, thank you for listening to an episode about one of my favorite shows. And remember, if you want to bump it, bump it with a trumpet.