This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Matt Rodin: To prove to myself that I was capable of doing a show like this eight times a week for two and a half months was beyond what I can possibly put into words. It gave me a confidence, not a cockiness, a confidence in what I'm capable of and again I don't think that a bow happens without me doing a Hedwig.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons, you can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing the musical Hedwig and the Angry Inch, a musical that was requested from Maya who wrote us and said, quote, I haven't seen Hedwig on stage but I've loved the movie ever since it first came out, more or less. I'd love to hear you talk about both, end quote. Thank you, Maya. I really appreciate you. To be honest, Maya wrote me a long time ago and finding the right guest for this episode, I mean, like many of the listener requests, has been a tricky one. It's obviously a beloved show, really loyal fan base, but it's also a show that doesn't take nicely to posers.

You either get it or you don't. And I mean that is kind of the definition of punk and glam and you're a star but you're also an alien type of energy. It's difficult to describe without maybe a specific experience that brings you close to it. Enter our guest. I first saw Matt Rodin in Bow the Musical off-Broadway last year and in many ways that show is kind of Hedwig-adjacent, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But at that performance, I saw in his bio that he has a weekly newsletter that he sends out. So in the back of my head, I'm already thinking, okay, he's a performer. He's got a writer's brain. I bet he'd be great on the pod. Well, then it turns out he's done Hedwig. So truly, couldn't ask for a better guest.

He was seen as Jamie on the National Tour of Company and was recently nominated for a Drama Desk Award for his performance in Bow the Musical. By the way, congratulations, Matt, on losing to Joshua Henry and Casey Levy. I mean, put it on your gravestone. Everyone, please welcome Matt Rodin!

[2:21] Matt Rodin: Oh my god. I'm already emotional. I'm already like a little emotional. It's so sweet. And I'm sure I'll say this again and more, but I'm just so touched to have my name connected to this show in any way, shape, or form. It's a small club. Don't you feel that way a little bit?

[2:37] Matt Rodin: I very much so. And I very much feel like because I did it regionally, it wasn't something that I'm still kind of on the outside, whatever that means. But then to be able to have this opportunity to talk about this show that I literally love with all of my heart and soul and really did change the course of my life. Yeah, I'm just so honored. So thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

[2:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm grateful you're here. I want to dive right in then. Tell me about, first of all, did you know about Hedwig before doing it?

[3:05] Matt Rodin: It's interesting because when I went to school for theater, I went to Boston Conservatory and I was always sort of on the outskirts in the way that I was into the alt shows. I was into, I don't know if you would consider Once like an alt show, but because I sang mostly pop rock, I wasn't really in the sort of mainstream flow of this BFA program. But Hedwig was not on my radar. It was not a show that I knew. And I saw it. I saw it on Broadway with Andrew Rannells when he replaced. I hadn't seen the movie and I actually had an awful headache the night that I saw Andrew in Hedwig. So I didn't have a good experience at the show.

[3:44] Matt Rodin: That is a lot. It's a lot of sensory to be taking in.

[3:47] Matt Rodin: With a headache, yes, it's a lot. So it was like in the fall of 2019 that I got an email with an appointment, which was my first, it was my first audition since signing with this new agent that I just just signed with. And I was like, this is so much material, like three pages of straight monologue, you know, three songs that I had to learn from scratch. I was just like, this feels like too much for me. I don't know. Also, I've never done drag like they're going to hire. This is Milwaukee Rep. Like, I was like, they're going to hire a drag queen. They're going to hire a famous drag queen at the very least. Like, if not just like a famous Broadway person to come do this singular thing that's so special.

[4:30] Matt Rodin: We're in the world of like post-drag race. There are a lot of people who could quote-unquote sell tickets.

[4:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And also the drag scene in Milwaukee is massive.

[4:38] Matt Rodin: Is it?

[4:39] Matt Rodin: Massive, which I only came to find out later. But yeah, so I just was like, there's no way. And I thought about being like, I think I'm just not going to audition. I think I'm just going to pass. And my husband, the story comes back and back and back with almost every audition that I booked. But he was like, I really think you should just like learn the material, put yourself on tape, if nothing else, to like show your agents like what you can do. Like this new agency, my husband's an agent too. So he was like, I think it would be good if you just put yourself on tape, learn this material. And as I sat with the material, I was like, huh, this is really, really good.

[5:13] Matt Rodin: And we're going to talk more about this, I'm sure. But even in that audition packet, they were very much like, make this your own. Like, don't feel like you need to be beholden to what is on the page in terms of the dialogue. And for me, that is like all I ever want to do is have the freedom to like play and try and do something kind of ridiculous and crazy, especially with a self-tape where it feels so like mechanical. I really try to, for myself, bust out and do something that's just like a little off-center or that's surprising. And this material gave me the perfect opportunity to do that.

[5:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally.

[5:48] Matt Rodin: So I make this tape. We sent it in and they liked it. And then I had a Zoom callback. Again, you got to think this is like November of 2019. So Zoom wasn't really a thing yet.

[6:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was going to say, I'm already like post-pandemic, but we're not even.

[6:03] Matt Rodin: Right. No.

[6:04] Matt Rodin: So I have the Zoom callback and I got the job and I was like, this is insane. I mean, I was going to leave in like two weeks to go to Milwaukee to do this, to get started in rehearsal. And I was like, I don't know that I can do this. Like, I have never done. I had been working on Bow for like at that point, probably like five, six years. And so I had done the sort of front man thing of that show and was like, oh, I think I'm capable. But Hedwig like in full drag and six-inch heels. Like, what am I going to do? And there's there's so many sort of like strange coincidences that led to that. But the one that I think is important to just mention is that, you know, I have been doing red carpets for Broadway openings.

I work for Broadway.com for like five years and Playbill to doing these like red carpet games on opening nights for Broadway shows. And those videos were I had done like at that point, probably like a hundred videos, maybe of that. And I always felt like I didn't know how those videos were going to contribute or not to my like performing career. It was always kind of just yeah, it was just kind of like a question mark. It was like, I hope this will help. But the thing I came to find out later was that the team at Milwaukee Rep went and watched these videos.

[7:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[7:22] Matt Rodin: And realized they were like, oh, he's an improver. He's quick and improv. And yes. And they were like, we have no doubt the singing and whatever is all there. But now we can see that like, oh, he's going to be able to think quick on his feet, which is like an essential ingredient to achieving this show at the level that I think it deserves to be like achieved.

[7:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[7:44] Matt Rodin: And I'm from Chicago. So that's the other piece of this is that I had never done a job even close to where I came from. And the fact that my dad saw the show like 26 times, my mom saw the show 24 times. I had everyone I've ever known in my entire life, like anyone who's known me since I was born, drove the hour, hour and a half to Milwaukee to come see me play this role, which this is a very specific role. It's hard to explain to people, you know, and I came to realize that the show was not only like what I needed at that moment, but also I think what my family needed at that moment and what that theater Milwaukee needed at that moment. They were about to I mean, the pandemic was just about to hit.

We didn't know, obviously, but they were sort of on the ramp up to this $80 million campaign that ended up. They ended up like renovating their entire theater. Incredible. And that was the beginning of that was the was the excitement of that. They never done a musical in their black box space before. So it was like a proof of concept for them. There was a lot riding on this for everybody.

[8:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It put us all on the front edge, which is good.

[8:48] Matt Rodin: Well, it feels like a risk no matter when you do it. And certainly I'd love to dive into how it started because that in and of itself was a huge, a huge risk.

[9:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, they didn't know.

[9:03] Matt Rodin: They didn't know.

[9:04] Matt Rodin: No, they had no idea that what it was going to become. But I also think that in my brain, I always think Hedwig is older than it is because I was like ninety-nine.

[9:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[9:18] Matt Rodin: So it premiered off-Broadway.

[9:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Ninety-eight.

[9:20] Matt Rodin: For some reason, I'm always thinking it's like with Rent, like happening around the same time.

[9:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, well, I do think he was doing he was doing the character.

[9:29] Matt Rodin: He was doing exactly like ninety-six, ninety-seven. And I think that's why my brain thinks that is because it really the gestational period of the character itself was such a span of time that it probably is as old as Rent.

[9:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[9:49] Matt Rodin: So I got to have John Cameron Mitchell on the show for our Secret Garden episode, which was so cool.

[9:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He's a wild one.

[9:58] Matt Rodin: I love him so much.

[9:59] Matt Rodin: He's wild. So I do think that I need to real quick tell this story, and I'm sure you know this because you've done podcasting as well. When you go back and listen to the audio post recording, I find that I'm often amazed at what imperfect listeners we all are and how much information is sometimes going on that I'm not aware of, maybe because I'm trying to read my notes and keep us on track and everything. But I've gone back and realized because I hear like the click, click, clack of a keyboard. Oh, this person was emailing during the entire conversation or or unmistakable sound. There was this one time I went back. It was just undeniable to me that the partner, this person farted. But the squeaks of the chairs are often hilarious.

[10:51] Matt Rodin: No, but it was clear to me that someone's partner had come home from Trader Joe's, specifically Trader Joe's, because the freezer was getting filled. And, you know, there's like an undeniable sound of like freezer stuff from Trader Joe's. Anyway, missing information. The point being is that when John Cameron was on the show, he because he's a film director, he had himself like framed beautifully and like a chair in the corner. And it wasn't a tight shot at all. Barely a medium shot. So he looked very grand and beautiful. But we're also like these tiny little squares on our screen. And when I went back in that, plus the fact that he is so dry and so subtle, I thought, oh, wow, I heard all of his words, but I missed 20 to 30 percent of the information he was given. And revisiting Hedwig, it feels like that stamp of his is all over the show.

[11:57] Matt Rodin: It is packed with information, but you kind of got to think about it. You got to dig a little bit. He's not just going to offer it.

[12:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, there's nothing.

[12:07] Matt Rodin: There's no wasted. It's very efficient in that way, in that like, which is that word I love to use to describe a show that I feel is efficient, where I'm like, you have used every piece of punctuation, every syllable, every sound, every letter in every word you have intentionally chosen.

[12:23] Matt Rodin: Or it feels like there's a there there.

[12:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[12:27] Matt Rodin: And what's unique about Hedwig is that the layer on top of that and in the in the actual this is like a little history book that I if you're if you're curious about if anyone's curious about Hedwig, this is a great little I mean, it's literally tiny. It's called Mitchell and Trask's Hedwig in the Inky Ranch by Caridad Svich. But yes, in the on the first page of that script, one of the things that they say is that they're like, we want you to make this your own. We want we are you are not at all tied to what we've done, and we want it to be present to where you are with who you are. Geographically. Yes. Like, yes, if nothing else. And that has to have been born from the fact that they tried it out in so many places as well.

[13:14] Jeff Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we’re diving into the loud and in-your-face world of "Hedwig and the Angry Inch."

[13:44] Jeff Parsons: This is a listener-requested episode, and I’m thrilled to have the talented Matt Rodin with me to discuss this transformative musical.

[14:04] Matt Rodin: Thanks for having me, Jeff! "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" has such a unique place in musical theatre history.

[14:24] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely! It’s not just a musical; it’s a cultural phenomenon that challenges norms and explores identity.

[14:34] Matt Rodin: Right, and the way it tackles themes of love, loss, and self-discovery is incredibly powerful.

[14:44] Jeff Parsons: And the music! The score is so dynamic and really drives the narrative forward.

[15:04] Matt Rodin: Yes, each song is a reflection of Hedwig’s journey, and it’s hard not to get swept up in the emotion.

[15:24] Jeff Parsons: Speaking of emotion, what was your first experience with "Hedwig"?

[15:44] Matt Rodin: I first saw it in college, and it completely changed my perspective on what a musical could be.

[16:04] Jeff Parsons: It’s definitely a game-changer. The way it blends rock music with storytelling is just brilliant.

[16:24] Matt Rodin: And the character of Hedwig is so complex. She’s fierce, vulnerable, and unapologetically herself.

[16:44] Jeff Parsons: That’s what makes her such an iconic figure in musical theatre.

[17:04] Matt Rodin: Absolutely! And the themes of gender identity and self-acceptance resonate with so many people.

[17:24] Jeff Parsons: It’s a celebration of individuality, which is especially important during Pride Month.

[17:44] Matt Rodin: Yes! The show really encourages everyone to embrace their true selves.

[18:04] Jeff Parsons: And the humor in it is so sharp. It balances the heavy themes with moments of levity.

[18:24] Matt Rodin: Definitely! Hedwig’s wit and sarcasm are part of what makes her so relatable.

[18:44] Jeff Parsons: It’s a wild ride from start to finish, and I think that’s what keeps audiences coming back.

[19:04] Matt Rodin: For sure! The energy in the room during a live performance is electric.

[19:24] Jeff Parsons: Have you had the chance to perform in "Hedwig"?

[19:44] Matt Rodin: I have! It was one of the most rewarding experiences of my career.

[20:04] Jeff Parsons: That’s amazing! What was it like stepping into Hedwig’s shoes?

[20:24] Matt Rodin: It was both exhilarating and terrifying. There’s so much depth to the character, and you really have to dig deep.

[20:44] Jeff Parsons: I can only imagine. The vulnerability required must be intense.

[20:54] Matt Rodin: It really is. But it’s also incredibly liberating to express those emotions on stage.

[21:04] Jeff Parsons: And the connection with the audience must be something special.

[21:24] Matt Rodin: Absolutely! You can feel the audience’s energy, and it creates a unique bond.

[21:44] Jeff Parsons: That’s what live theatre is all about.

[22:04] Matt Rodin: Yes! And "Hedwig" does such a great job of breaking down barriers and inviting everyone in.

[22:24] Jeff Parsons: It’s a true celebration of diversity and acceptance.

[22:44] Matt Rodin: Exactly! And that’s why it remains so relevant today.

[23:04] Jeff Parsons: I think it’s important for new generations to experience it.

[23:24] Matt Rodin: Definitely! The messages are timeless, and they resonate across different cultures and backgrounds.

[23:44] Jeff Parsons: Well said! I’m excited to dive deeper into the songs and themes of "Hedwig" with you.

[24:04] Matt Rodin: Me too! There’s so much to unpack.

[24:24] Jeff Parsons: Let’s get into it!

[24:44] Matt Rodin: Absolutely!

[25:04] Jeff Parsons: So, what’s the first song that stands out to you?

[25:24] Matt Rodin: "Tear Me Down" is such a powerful opener. It sets the tone for the entire show.

[25:44] Jeff Parsons: It really does! The raw emotion in that song is palpable.

[26:04] Matt Rodin: Yes, and it perfectly encapsulates Hedwig’s struggle and resilience.

[26:59] Matt Rodin: It's really intense, but also was so right for what they were doing.

[27:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're exactly right. There's even an amazing story, I think, on opening where someone had died.

[27:09] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[27:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Someone had died in the hotel and there were like 200 people waiting to go into the space and they had to wait because the gurney had to come down.

[27:17] Matt Rodin: Had to come in. Yes. Yes.

[27:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, can you imagine? So that's where it's living. It's obviously making fun of itself, that this band and Hedwig as the star is perpetually disappointed by the fact that they haven't reached the level of success that Tommy, kind of this rock nemesis, has achieved and is usually performing just next door.

[27:47] Matt Rodin: That's right.

[27:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So that's the whole concept of this show, is that Hedwig's performing her piece while next door her nemesis is enjoying all of the rock success that she always wanted.

[28:01] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[28:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, your show, Bo, is not dissimilar in that it is a live performance premiering the latest album of this new band.

[28:09] Matt Rodin: Yeah, it's a concert. And again, I really do feel like it's funny because the way that Douglas Lyons, who wrote the show with his writing partner, Ethan Pachar, the way that they would describe the show was it was somewhere between like Rent and once in the way that it was queer and again, like just like breaking out of the norm and also actor musicians. And I always invoked Hedwig because, well, at least post doing it, because I do think it is a direct offspring of Hedwig because this form of concert musical has become, by the way, my favorite form. And there's a couple other shows that I mean, Hundred Days by the Banksons. The Banksons in general, they have been able to continue forward this form in a new and interesting way that we are telling a story.

We're telling a narrative in a theater, but the container is a concert. And Bo, like you said, it is a that night that audience is coming to hear this concert of this band and this artist, this guy named Ace, who I played, they are premiering their album. And like Hedwig, the sort of narrative emerges from the music and the songs are not necessarily. They're not necessarily scenes.

[29:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, they're right. They're like, they're less like plot driving. They're songs, they're concert performances.

[29:40] Matt Rodin: And commentary on maybe even the emotional state that the information leads to.

[29:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And it's still giving you information. There's still some data that's being shared, but it's more of a like you said, a reflection of a moment. And again, I think Hedwig was the one that sort of pioneered this. And in our production of Hedwig, we decided that because Hedwig is a songwriter, that is part of the story is that Hedwig writes these songs that you're hearing. We gave Hedwig a guitar.

[30:10] Matt Rodin: I was just going to ask because you're an amazing musician on top of it.

[30:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks. And we decided that we would have Hedwig play Wicked Little Town and or The Origin of Love.

[30:26] Matt Rodin: The Origin of Love. Oh, for crying out loud.

[30:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And so getting to play both of those songs on the guitar. By the way, that's not something that's in the piece. That's not something that John Cameron Mitchell did. It's not something that they did on Broadway. I'm sure there are other productions that have done it, but we had not heard of it. And me and the director, Mark, and the music director, Dan, were like, we think that this is going to be sort of the next level. Because again, it demonstrates that Hedwig is a songwriter. And it's not just a performance for performance sake. It is vulnerable to share. And also, I felt more a part of the band in a way that I don't know that I would have.

[31:03] Matt Rodin: You're sure connected to them.

[31:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And Bo, same thing, is that I play almost every song in the show. And again, it does something to an audience that I just don't know if there's words to explain.

[31:15] Matt Rodin: There's an ownership there, though, for sure.

[31:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because one of the things about musical theater is that we believe that these notes, these melodies are coming from deep within to express something that you can't necessarily talk about. And then to add on top of it, you're accompanying yourself. You're physically allowing that to happen by accompanying yourself.

[31:36] Matt Rodin: It pumps up the vulnerability, at the very least.

[31:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, the risk feels higher in some way.

[31:47] Matt Rodin: Yep, absolutely.

[31:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So going back to Trask and Mitchell, they're writing about different things, writing different songs. One of the things that John Cameron Mitchell brought out was Plato's Symposium, which is very old, of course. Mr. Plato, not the youngest fellow in the world, but a very old collection of writing, myth. And he tells Stephen Trask, there's something in here that I think is really interesting. And it's this particular myth that becomes the song The Origin of Love.

[32:21] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[32:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I really want to talk through this, Puppy, because it's-

[32:26] Matt Rodin: Oh, nothing would make me happier in the whole world.

[32:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And honestly, it honestly establishes what the entire show is.

[32:33] Matt Rodin: Well, that's what I was going to say. It becomes the spine of the show.

[32:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is literally the ethos of the show.

[32:39] Matt Rodin: Completely. So in Plato's Symposium, they talk about that when the Earth was created, there were three kinds of humans, if you want to say. They didn't look like humans. They were, in fact, what we would consider two humans put together in some kind of-

[33:00] Matt Rodin: Yes, the children of the sun, as it were.

[33:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. So the children of the sun were two men put together. The children of the Earth were two women put together. And then children of the moon are kind of like a half and half, one man, one woman. And they were roaming the Earth. Then the gods got a little worried that they were becoming too curious, too powerful. And somebody wanted to wipe them out completely, but Zeus said, no, let me use my lightning bolts, and I'm going to split them down the middle. And then they'll basically spend the rest of their lives looking for their other half. And so the idea of this song is like that's the origin of love. That's the origin of our yearning, our need to feel complete.

[33:54] Matt Rodin: When we're searching for our wholeness, but in another person.

[33:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, exactly.

[34:00] Matt Rodin: Right. That's the journey that is set up, basically, that we are as human beings constantly on the hunt for another person to-

[34:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: To make us whole.

[34:11] Matt Rodin: That's right.

[34:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's an epic song.

[34:14] Matt Rodin: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's like a metal arc. I mean, it's literally like it is-

[34:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a really good point.

[34:19] Matt Rodin: Do you know what I mean? Right? It's like it is a full narrative in a song. I really can't really think of a lot of other examples of that.

[34:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you don't learn anything about Hedwig in terms of where they were born. There's no information per se, and yet it's everything. Everything is in that song, just like you said, kind of like a metal arc. As I was listening to the song over and over again, because there's a lot of lyrics and I wanted to really follow along, what I had never really considered until that preparation was there is this possibility that one could view queerness from the lens of straight couples in a very easy way. And by that, I mean, on some level, a straight man is looking for a woman as his other half. So, that means that there's this innate understanding that you are not complete without the femininity. Right? So, even if we're the straightest of straight, we're still looking for the other. And so-

[35:28] Matt Rodin: We're looking for the counter. That's right.

[35:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The counter. It was just kind of this little aha moment for me where I was like, we all should innately understand queerness.

[35:38] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[35:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It all innately wants to exist in everyone.

[35:43] Matt Rodin: Yeah. And like we said, this is the thing that sets up the whole rest of the piece, because it explains why Hedwig is on this search for wholeness, basically through Tommy Gnosis, who was that other artist that we were talking about.

[35:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Who's the rock and roll guy.

[35:57] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Who taps into something, makes Hedwig feel seen in a way that Hedwig had never felt seen before. And that becomes the pursuit. It's like, this person could complete me, basically.

[36:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. All right. So, when Hedwig begins to tell her story, and I honestly don't know what pronouns to use because-

[36:21] Matt Rodin: I use all of them, by the way. I just use them all interchangeably.

[36:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They'll probably all be used at some point, but John Cameron Mitchell has specifically said, Hedwig isn't a trans icon. Don't make her a trans icon.

[36:34] Matt Rodin: That's right.

[36:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For this particular reason. So, when we first hear about their childhood, growing up in East Berlin, on the other side of the wall. In fact, the entire show begins with Hedwig saying, I'm the Berlin Wall, baby. Try to tear me down.

[36:50] Matt Rodin: And speaking of the dualism, the male, the female, this split of Germany, it feels so important for it to be existing there post-World War II. And by the way, John Cameron Mitchell, his dad's the military guy. Hilarious that this kid came from this family, but they lived in Germany. They lived everywhere, of course, when you're in the military. And so, the ideas that come from living in a small town, the ideas from Germany, that's all John Cameron. All of the ideas about being a bitter rock artist, that's Stephen Trask. They've kind of gone on the record of saying, that's what they each brought to this character.

[37:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, the whole German of it all, Hansel, who was Hedwig when he was younger, is growing up in East Germany. It's communist rule. So, the only thing he can do is listen to American Forces Radio. And that's kind of how he's getting these glimpses of Western culture. I want to read this from the script because it's just so freaking funny and awesome. Hedwig says in the show, our apartment was so small that mother made me play it in the oven, the radio. Late at night, I would rest my head on the top rack and listen to the American masters, Tony Teneal, Debbie Boone, Anne Murray, who was actually a Canadian working in the American idiom. Then there were the crypto homo rockers, Lou Reed, Iggy Pop, David Bowie, who was actually an idiom working in America and Canada. I don't know.

[38:29] Matt Rodin: Yeah, it's genius. I mean, it's genius.

[38:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, you can imagine this little kid falling in love with this music, and then his mom tells him the story of the symposium. And so, now he feels like, okay, I know that I need to find someone, but I don't know who it is. Is it going to be a man? Is it going to be a woman? I truly don't know. As a very young teen, he meets this guy.

[38:54] Matt Rodin: This army colonel, basically.

[38:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Who sees him sunbathing on his stomach. So, he sees this cute little tush and is like, ooh, a gorgeous young female. And then Hansel rolls over and oopsie boopsie.

[39:11] Matt Rodin: And so, the lieutenant's like, all right, well, kind of cover that up. Won't look down there. Put a wig on you. You want to be my wife? And Hansel thinking, well, anything to get out of here.

[39:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[39:26] Matt Rodin: Sure, let's do it. The only problem is that Hansel's mom and this colonel say that in order for the marriage to be legit in the eyes of the government, he needs to get rid of his manhood. So, they have an operation.

[39:44] Matt Rodin: The operation is busted and instead of kind of having a full transition into from penis to vagina, he ends up with this like inch mound of flesh. So, it's neither here nor there and thus is born Hedwig. Now, you were talking about having your family come and see you in all of your queerness. That is one thing, my friend. It's another thing to be playing a character without any genitalia, which I think just freaks everyone the F out. Totally, totally. I mean, we're talking about penis and vagina. I mean, like even that, you know what I mean? And in this dry, dark humor sort of way, Hedwig is completely unapologetic about their experience and maybe wants to freak you out a little bit because this is the trauma that I've been through.

You might as well feel a little uncomfortable about it as well. Totally, totally, totally. Yes. Oh, man. It's such a great basis for a punk rock sort of vibe of never feeling satisfaction because how could you? How could you? But that has to inform so much of the rage. Totally. And again, I think what you said is really true in that like passing on some of that discomfort is necessary and also joyful for Hedwig. We're in a place right now in culture where clown is on the rise, right? Where we've been hearing a lot about clown culture recently with Connor Story from Heated Rivalry. And just in general, it feels like clowning as an art form is sort of like making its way into the mainstream in a different way.

The reason why I say that is because I love theater and specifically clown that is inherently risky. It puts you on edge. It feels dangerous. There's a couple people specifically, Natalie Palomides or Palomides. She has an incredible Netflix comedy special that is also a gender play piece like clown piece, but it is very dangerous and risky. She is wrestling audience members on stage. That is like it like it is. Yeah. And dangerous. Yes. And the reason I say that is because I think finding the balance of making it feel dangerous and making people feel uncomfortable in a way that is necessary like we were. I mean, the one tiny example of that is like Mark, the director was like, we will not turn the music down if people are complaining.

Good. Yeah, that is the point. We can give them earplugs, but you should be a little uncomfortable. You should be a little worried that Hedwig is going to come and do something to you that you could be implicated in whatever is about to happen. This is a person who has named their band after the single greatest trauma of their life. Yes. And to get to embody that right to get to like this role is so physical in every kind of way. I mean, again, the physical work that I had to do for the show was just like so intense. You're passing that that you're passing that physical discomfort onto the people that are there with you and still be entertaining and fun. Right. Like you like you still got to be likable.

These people got to they got to be on your side for you. And Hedwig is sometimes difficult to cheer for. So going back to the story that he they get married a year later, Hedwig's basically been abandoned by the colonel. They moved to like a trailer park in a trailer park in the middle of Midwestern America. That's right. And I guess the next big individual that they meet is this Tommy character who, by the way, was underage when they met. But same thing before. Same thing before. Hedwig was underage when he meets just trauma, giving more trauma. That's right. This Tommy character, I think, can be a real point of confusion for audience members. And also, we see Tommy in the film. We don't see Tommy in the show in the stage version.

Yes. And this is my understanding of it. Let me know if we're on the same page, is that Tommy and Hedwig are kind of it's a doppelganger situation where Hedwig meets Tommy and thinks, oh, finally, it's my person to complete the half. Yeah, right. Because Tommy is everything that Hedwig isn't. He's a he's a boy, you know, anatomically speaking. He has kind of the physical appearance that would allow him to become the rock star. And yet the battered and bruised artist that's giving birth to the creativity is Hedwig. So they have to have each other. And Hedwig gives Tommy all of their songs, all of their ideas, and turns them into, you know, this like global superstar. Yeah, right. Yep. So the journey that Hedwig then needs to go on is realizing that she is Tommy, and Tommy is her.

That's right. And being okay with that, while also not needing the other person in their life. Does that make sense? Am I explaining that? Totally, totally. I mean, again, and this is part of why this piece is so special, is because it is not easy to pin down. And it's not easy to describe. The elevator pitch does not exist. No. And it again, it leaves you with more questions than answers, you know, and it was a conversation, this conversation that we're having, it was a conversation I had all the time with people that came and saw the show, because it's a question. It's like, who is Tommy? Does Tommy even exist? Right. And in the film, it's a little more explicit in that way. But in the piece, the theater piece, for me, I was present with it every night.

Like it was, it was whatever was there for me every night. But also, one of the things I learned from this piece, which I think is sort of a sidestep, but probably will speak to something larger that we can get into, is that I learned that my responsibility as an actor in a piece, especially like this, but probably any piece, is to show up and tell the story and do the work and be present in my own experience in that moment. How that is received and interpreted by an audience is none of my business. None of your business. Everyone is coming into this with a different set of experiences, with a different worldview. And their understanding of who Hedwig is, of this Tommy relationship, is Tommy real?

All of that is being informed by their own experiences. And for me to have to try to project onto them what I think it is, is actually doing the piece and them a disservice. Great. Like part of why the piece is so special is that it does open up questions. And what we find, and this is part of this Tommy piece, is that, like you said, Hedwig sees Tommy as the other half, the origin of love. That is what Hedwig sees Tommy as, that, oh, I found my other half. I'm going to be whole again. And the conclusion over the course of this piece that Hedwig ends up coming to is know that you're whole. All of it exists within you. It's already inside you. To put it in binary terms, all the masculine and feminine, right?

The Tommy and the Hedwig, it all is, you possess all of it. And to seek out your wholeness in another person, it's for naught. Like the whole point is that you as yourself, you possess everything that you need to move through this world. And the waste of time of creating those divisions, whether it's the Berlin Wall. Yes. Or a binary that says you're this gender because of a penis or a mound of flesh or of whatever. Like at the end of the day, take all of it away. Take all of it away. And you even look in the film, like the whole film ends with John Cameron Mitchell walking into a street completely naked with what has always shamed him so much completely on display, right? The walls that you've built are there because you built them.

That's right. And I will say like that, if nothing else, that was the greatest gift that that show gave me. Both as an actor, but also like as someone who fell in love with the piece, like as I learned about the piece and started listening to the piece, I found in myself, number one, I didn't need a partner in order to complete me. And I had been partnered for probably what, three or four years at that point. And we had had our own struggles with this need to like fulfill the holes of the other person and try to like, you know, the balance. And so not only did I learn that, but also in terms of my own gender expression and my own idea of who I am, that who I am doesn't need to exist in a binary.

And that's not to say, by the way, that like, I'm not even putting a label on that. No, no, exactly. Right? That's the thing is like, I actually don't even need to put a label on whatever that is. Like it is inherently whole within itself. It doesn't need any kind of label. And however that shows up in you is perfect. It's that that's the namaste of it all, right? I see you for all that you are. Yes. And if we can all agree that this life is full of paradox and make room for each other within it, then I think we're doing pretty well. And for ourselves. I mean, that's the other thing too, is it's like, it's so much about like, can I accept all of me? Right? Like, I don't know how you experience like coming into your queerness, but I just have so many memories of the push and pull of like, how gay should I be, quote unquote, right?

How feminine am I? What clothes am I wearing? What does this say about me? It goes on and on and on. I have a famous story of when I looked at my iTunes library and was ashamed at how gay it was. And so I bought a Sheryl Crow album and a Seal album because I thought that would help. It would balance it out. It would balance it out. It's like, I'm listening to Seal. But that instinct, I think that that that is such a beautiful demonstration of the instinct that I think so many of us, by the way, both as queer and people that don't consider themselves queer, which, by the way, I think everybody's queer, but that speaks to what the experience of being a queer person is in such a beautiful way. And Hedwig really gave me the power to say, I love my gayness.

Like, I love my queerness. I love how I show up queer. And it changes every single day. And it's not prescriptive. And I don't need to answer to anybody except for my soul, basically, like my like what feels true to me in this particular moment, in this hour, in this minute, like I don't need to put myself in a box. And by the way, the other layer of that is as a performer, as an actor, right? Like, oh, I don't need to be anything other than who I am. Right. The reason why you love a Bernadette Peters, because she sounds like Bernadette Peters. The reason why you love a Patti LuPone is because she sounds like Patti LuPone. I can go down the list, Josh Henry, Casey Levy, right? Like we can, I could name a hundred people for you and you would know the sound of their voice.

Those are the actors that you remember. And that to me was the gift that Hedwig gave me was that I was like, wait a second. I went in this audition. I sang the way that I sing. I did the comedy the way that I wanted to do the comedy, right? It was all very true to me because the show in a very similar way of like, it strips away everything else. And to prove to myself that I was capable of doing a show like this eight times a week for two and a half months was beyond what I can possibly put into words. It gave me a confidence, not a cockiness, a confidence in what I'm capable of. And again, I don't think that a bow happens without me doing a Hedwig. And I think this idea coming back to this Tommy thing that that's how we started this piece of the conversation was that like this person outside of you can complete you.

And the realization that Hedwig comes to in the end of the piece is that they are whole in who they are. Beautifully said. Beautifully said. I think the detail that I'll throw on there and truly just toss on there because you could talk even more about this is that you see the hurt that Hedwig.

[52:59] Matt Rodin: Creates throughout the show because they don't feel whole. The way that Hedwig treats Yitchak, which is another character. Oh, my God. Right. Yes. You know? Is an extension of that. That's right. It's an expression of that. Yes. Is an expression of that. And I think it's such a good reminder to us that we are not the only recipients of our pain because we're social creatures. And so, when we do not feel whole, we hurt people. Yes. And I think this show, like, yes, you are perfect. You are whole. And please believe it because otherwise you will hurt other people. Right. Right. Right. 100%. And I think it's important also to say that if you don't know the show, Hedwig is not telling a story, but he's not telling the story of learning he's whole. He is learning, or she is learning, or they're learning, whatever you want to call it. They're learning their whole in the process of doing the piece. In real time.

[54:00] Matt Rodin: In real time. Right. The discoveries are happening in real time. It's a great point. Hedwig doesn't get to the end and say, and that's when I learned that I am whole. Right. Yes. Correct. No. There's an entire breakdown that we all witness. And from the ashes of that is birthed a new Hedwig. That again, can be confusing for people. They go, is that Tommy? Is that Hedwig? My answer was always like, yep. Or like, what do you think? What do you think? I want to hear what you think. Let's sit in the question. Let's just sit in that question. It doesn't need to have, as much as you want it to, it doesn't need to have a solid answer. So it happens in real time, which again, as an audience member, it's so satisfying.

And that's why my dad, who was a hockey dad, he was not, he's not a big theater guy, like loves rock and roll music, right? Like big, big, big seventies rock fan. But you know, there was risk for me and being like, I don't know if he's going to love this or absolutely hate this and be like, what is happening? And he came back 26 times. That's so cool. Because yeah, because I think for him, he got to watch his son be brave. Yeah. Right. And take risk and come into himself.

[55:13] Matt Rodin: And in an interesting way, the container of the show makes it safe. Completely agree. It's interesting. You know, it had this pretty acclaimed off-Broadway run. I think there was a lot of fear that once John Cameron Mitchell left the role, that it would die in the same way that Ziggy Stardust. Like I actually heard an interview with David Bowie before he passed where he said, you know, I was stupid. I retired the character when I was done with it. And I should have had other people play the character. And Hedwig didn't fall into that trap. They had lots of people, including Ally Sheedy. Like there were female Hedwigs as well playing this character. It doesn't come to Broadway though, until when was that? 2014.

[56:01] Jeff Parsons: 14? Is that something? Sure. That sounds great. I could be wrong about that.

[56:05] Matt Rodin: And same thing there. John Cameron Mitchell did come back to play it, but later in the run. Started as Neil Patrick Harris. Yeah. Which by the way, I think Neil did an unbelievable job. Amazing. And also seeing John do it was amazing too. But like, again, all those bootlegs exist. And I studied them so hard. Because again, this comedy and this text is really specific. And finding the timing within yourself of how to land some of these really, really just dry, sharp, quick jokes. There's so much to learn. I studied these bootlegs of John and Michael Cerveris and Neil and Rannells. Well, Cerveris was the first replacement downtown. He was the first replacement, exactly. At the Jane Street. And legitimized it in many ways. Because like, this is a Tony winner, you know. That's right. All of a sudden it was like, oh, that's what he's- Like this is real theater.

[57:01] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Quote unquote. The person in my life who saw that revival the most is one of my besties from college, Andrew, who lives in New York. And I've been thinking about him constantly throughout this whole prep for this episode. And he knows it much better than even than I do. So, I was like, instead of me ending my portion of this conversation by saying what I think it means, I wanted to ask him for his words. I asked him what he loves about Hedwig.

[57:30] Matt Rodin: And he said, Hedwig taught me about radical acceptance. Accepting your circumstances, yet refusing to settle for anything less than glamour. The gritty glamour you create from the shrapnel of a life filled with heartbreak, tragedy, loss, rejection, neglect, exploitation, abandonment, and humiliation. Hedwig embodies what it means to live a full human experience and choosing to create beauty and find joy, even in the darkest of circumstances.

[58:03] Jeff Parsons: I was like, good heavens, Andrew. I mean, really. I truly, I couldn't say it better than that. I mean, that is exactly that's how I feel. That's exactly how I feel. The radical acceptance, you know, there's a saying in 12 Step that they say acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. And that's the truth, is that like, if you can get to that place, right, before we get to gratitude, before we get to generosity. Acceptance is a great place to begin.

[58:31] Matt Rodin: Acceptance is the baseline for all those things. We have to be able to accept both our circumstances and who we are. And the other piece about this that I just haven't mentioned that I think is important to know is that we closed our run of Hedwig on March 9th of 2020.

[58:49] Jeff Parsons: Oh, gosh.

[58:50] Matt Rodin: So we closed on Sunday, March 9th. I flew back to New York on Monday, March 10th. The opening of Six was supposed to be on Thursday, the 13th. I was supposed to be at that opening to do the red carpet like I was going back to do red carpets. And obviously, that didn't happen. Throughout that run, which was January and February, in that beginning of March of 2020, there was this sense, first of all, that it was not that COVID was not coming for us. Or it was like it was something separate that like it was okay. And by the way, we had we had bowls of gummy bears on the tables like I was spitting in people's faces like it was intimate, like there was physical contact constantly. I was making COVID jokes. We had written jokes about coronavirus coming in because it was at that time, it was still kind of like, we don't know.

[59:38] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. And, you know, my mom tells the story that for like two years after COVID started, my mom was like, I could not look at a picture of you in that show. I couldn't listen to the music. I couldn't watch a video because she's like, I missed it too much. And that was the thing was like we were existing on the edge without even knowing it. And we were they were there was a version where we were going to extend a week. Thank God we didn't extend a week like we got to close our show before the world basically ended. Instead of having it ripped out of your hands.

[1:00:15] Matt Rodin: Exactly. Talk about radical acceptance. My gosh. And and that's and I think that's the part that I'm trying to get at is that like it set me up in a way for the pandemic in a way that I don't know you can't you couldn't have predicted. You know what I mean? You couldn't have planned because it was about radical acceptance. And I and I had just had this insane experience that I couldn't even I hadn't even processed. Like I hadn't even talked to people about, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I'm I'm like, very, very hopeful and very excited because I know that like it will that will come back around, like whether I do it at Milwaukee or somewhere else, like, I cannot wait to revisit this role in this piece and this character.

And even just listening to the album last over the last week, like knowing this was we were going to do this and listening in the car and just like the show has become part of my like I said, part of my ethos as a whole. And I feel a little sometimes outsidery speaking about being an outsider, because, again, like I haven't done a main quote unquote mainstream production of the show. But our little Milwaukee rep run meant so much to so many people. I feel it's in my blood now. Like it just is. It's part of everything I do. It just all is deeply informed by this truly incredible piece that they didn't. Like we said at the beginning, they did not know. They did not know. And they didn't set out to do that. They didn't set out. No, it was really just truly curiosity.

[1:02:02] Jeff Parsons: And that I think was the thing that made the difference was that it wasn't about any awards or accolades or attention. It was all Broadway.

[1:02:09] Matt Rodin: No, it was an experiment. It was an exploration. That was that's what it was about. Well, you know, I know you said it's not like, quote unquote, a mainstream production that you were part of, but Hedwig was never meant to be mainstream.

[1:02:15] Jeff Parsons: You're right. You're right. You're right.

[1:02:06] Matt Rodin: There's no way that you can take away the power of any bare bones production of this thing, because that's that's in its DNA. It's just a gift that keeps on giving, you know, and I really feel so indebted to John and Steven, because so many of us like the piece means I mean, like your friend, you articulated so beautifully, like this piece speaks to something that really no other musical theater piece does in the way that it does.

[1:02:34] Jeff Parsons: Well, thank you so much for sitting down with me and chatting about this thing.

[1:02:37] Matt Rodin: What a total pleasure. I really appreciate it.

[1:02:38] Jeff Parsons: I'm so honored. I'm so, so honored. Like I said, I love the show and I'm hopeful. I know it'll come back around. It's just Hedwig has a way of doing that. You know what I mean?

[1:02:46] Matt Rodin: Absolutely. If you want your Hedwig to play the guitar.

[1:02:51] Jeff Parsons: Hey, let's do it. I'm like, let's do an L.A. production.

[1:02:54] Matt Rodin: Seriously.

[1:02:55] Jeff Parsons: Something, something, you know, there are so many holes in the wall that you could fill up.

[1:03:00] Matt Rodin: It's on my mind. It's definitely on my mind. And again, now I'm like 34. So I'm like, I think it would be really cool and different to do it at this age, you know, this time in my life.

[1:03:09] Jeff Parsons: 100 percent. I will be there.

[1:03:11] Jeff Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email us at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. We're also on social media. We're on Instagram. We're on TikTok. We have Patreon! Exclamation point, where for only a few dollars a month, you can both support the show and receive bonus episodes every month, as well as a little essay for each new episode release.

[1:03:38] Matt Rodin: It's a really great time. We'd love to have you over there.

[1:03:41] Jeff Parsons: If you're feeling generous, head over to our TeePublic store, where the profits we receive from all of those purchases go directly to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. More than anything, so grateful you're here to enjoy and preserve this beautiful art form and the traditions that it provides us. Matt, before you go, can you share with us how we followed you and plug anything you got coming up?

[1:04:01] Matt Rodin: Yeah. I mean, listen, you can always Google my name. That's what I tell people. I'm like, you can just Google Matt Rodin. R-O-D-I-N. But the thing I think I'd want to point people to in the spirit of playfulness and breaking binaries and breaking outside boxes is this new gaming platform that I have launched over the last two months called Theater Games. And if you're a fan of Wordle or like Daily Puzzle Games, there's now three Daily Puzzle Games for theater people on theater.games. Theater with an E-R, not R-E. I know some people have very strong opinions, but yeah, Theater.games is what I'm working on right now. It is the thing that I'm like actively pursuing and we're having a lot of fun, but it's only been live at the time of this recording.

It's only been public for about eight weeks, and we've already had like over, I think, like 220,000 people play. So that's the thing I'm working on that I'm like, I'm plugging because I'm like, I want more people to play. And I've had subscribers from Patreon reach out to me and say that they play it. And they're always like, Hey, I got this one right in the first try because of this episode. Because of the show.

[1:05:07] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:05:07] Matt Rodin: Exactly, exactly. So that's the thing. I'm trying to do the same thing you're doing. I'm trying to help like educate the people.

[1:05:12] Jeff Parsons: I love that.

[1:05:13] Matt Rodin: So yeah, that's the place I point people. Otherwise, you know, I'm on all the socials and all that stuff. And the newsletter is every Friday at 4thwall.news. And it's a lot of, I mean, you've heard us talk, but it's more of this, you know?

[1:05:27] Jeff Parsons: Amazing.

[1:05:28] Jeff Parsons: You are a true creative. So great to chat with you. And thank you again for all of this. Listeners, thank you for listening. Appreciate you. And remember,

[1:05:36] Jeff Parsons: Know that you're whole.

[1:05:39] Matt Rodin: Know that you're whole.

[1:05:42] Jeff Parsons: Happy Pride Whole.

[1:05:46] Matt Rodin: And you know what? John Cairn Mitchell did that on purpose too. You know what I mean?

[1:05:49] Jeff Parsons: Like a hundred percent. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[1:05:53] Matt Rodin: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent.