This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Sam Zeller: I have to tell you one little thing.

[0:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, please.

[0:04] Sam Zeller: In Madison, Wisconsin, I was on for Dawn, and Saturday matinee happens, I leave the theater, and I'm going out, and there's people always outside at the stage door wanting autographs and things like that, and I see this kid, and I just kind of walk by him or whatever, but I could tell that he was like, he wanted to talk kind of thing, and I kind of look back at him, a pimply kid, 15 years old, and he says, Can I talk to you for a second? And I said, Sure. And he was so nervous, and he said, I don't know how to ask this without just asking it. And I said, Okay, go ahead. And he says, Would you hate me if I told you that I was gay? And I said, No, why would I hate you? Maybe, who hurt you? And he says, I, and he told me, he told his parents he was going to soccer practice.

He came to see the show. Oh, wow. And he wanted to know how he could come out. He didn't know how to come out. So I sat with him. I looked up on my phone, Gay and Lesbian Center of Madison, Wisconsin. There is none. Right. But there's a gay and lesbian student union at the university, which is right down State Street. I took him to the student center, and I said, Look, this kid's 15 years old. He needs help. He needs to talk to somebody. There's no gay and lesbian center here, but you're it, as far as I'm concerned. So please, is there anything that we can do to absolutely take good care of him? I called later, much later, about a month later, and asked about his progress. And she said that he's coming in for therapy.

He comes in and talks to a counselor. And then on the second talk or call, he had come out to his parents, and it was not as bad as he had envisioned. Sure. But it was all due to the fact that he came to see the show. He said I reminded him of his father. Wow. I mean, daddy issues. I don't know what else to say about that. But, I mean, what's so lovely is that I'm so glad that he was brave enough to approach me and ask me for help. And again, it was the show.

[2:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are talking about the musical Kinky Boots. Why? Because it is Pride Month. Happy Pride, everybody. And this was a listener request from Audrey. Lovely Audrey. Thank you so much for writing us and for requesting the show because we have the perfect guest. It's true. I'm just going to introduce them. Ladies and gentlemen, what is the line? Ladies and gentlemen and those who have yet to make up their minds, which I think is maybe a little dated now. We can talk about that. It's Sam Zeller. Hold for applause. Sam, I'm so grateful you're here. Thank you so much. How nice to see you and talk to you. It's been a while.

[3:29] Sam Zeller: Yeah, it has been a while. Because I honestly don't think I've seen you since before you left on tour for Kinky Boots.

[3:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you wore a lot of Kinky Boots over that time.

[3:38] Sam Zeller: I certainly did. Can you talk to me about your history with the show?

[3:42] Sam Zeller: Oh, my God. Just to fast forward all the way until today, I have a brand new knee thanks to Kinky Boots.

[3:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really? Tell me about that.

[3:54] Sam Zeller: I had a total knee replacement two months ago. My gosh. I had to have it done. I mean, when you think about it, a 6'2 tall man who weighs roughly about 275.

[4:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're a big dude.

[4:08] Sam Zeller: I mean, wearing this stiletto thigh-high boots on a daily basis is not anything I would recommend for anybody. But I mean, I tell you, because we were the national tour, we did all the press. We did all these different fundraiser things. So I chose to be in the boots every single time because it was for the cause. And I also got to wear the best outfit in the finale. I don't know. My character sort of – the way that it evolved, my character sort of comes out at the end.

[4:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[4:37] Sam Zeller: So I was like, you know, leather hat and Daisy Dukes and, you know, sure open up. Full fulsome.

[4:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, totally. Total fulsome fantasy.

[4:47] Sam Zeller: But I mean, I had such a great time. And so, of course, I'd meet people in the lobby afterwards for Broadway Cares and all that kind of stuff. And we just – it was the most amazing time. And it couldn't have come at a better time, too, because when I auditioned in L.A., it was at the very beginning of when every theater that I used to work at closed. And I thought, how am I going to work? Because this is where I made all my money and that's where I was able to get my exposure and all that kind of stuff. But anyway, I digress. But, no, I have a new knee. And I'm working on it. And my physical therapist says I'm doing amazing work. And it's all because I'm trying to get myself ready for a show that's being written right now. And I've been asked to be a part of it. So, hopefully, that will be – but it's very physical. So, I have to really get my legs back into shape. So, I'm working on it.

[5:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. Well, look, knee replacements are no joke. So, all my sympathies and empathies. But also, I'm so glad that things are going well.

[5:47] Sam Zeller: Oh, it's great. I tell you, I would always make it as a joke. I'd meet against a pole or something like that. And I'd say to the ladies when they'd come up to me, I said, I don't know how you do it, you know, wearing these heels. And they'd all look at me and they'd show me their shoes. And they'd be like, we don't. They're all wearing flats, you know, that kind of thing. And I'm like, oh, my God. But really, you can't beat it. I auditioned in Los Angeles. I was the last person to audition for that day for whatever reason.

[6:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really?

[6:15] Sam Zeller: And I remember walking in there, you know, walking in there being all – and there are all these guys behind the table. And they were like, hi. And I went, hi. I said it right back thinking, oh, okay, I can be myself. They were like, ugh. And I thought, okay, whatever. So I did the scene work and everything was fine. I got the feedback. He was too friendly at the audition.

[6:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, stop it.

[6:37] Sam Zeller: So I thought, what the hell?

[6:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Homophobia.

[6:40] Sam Zeller: Yeah, exactly. So then I tell my friend, Eugene, who's in the Broadway production, and he says, no, no, no, no. Put it on tape. Give it to me and I'm going to hand it to Jerry Mitchell myself. And I was like, okay.

[6:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[6:52] Sam Zeller: So I did. He gave me some adjustments to fix whatever I did. He gave it to Jerry and Jerry said, I want to see this guy. Because Jerry wasn't in L.A. when I auditioned in L.A. So I go to probably the most expensive four minutes of my life was $3,000. I flew to New York. I had a hotel for like two nights or whatever. Yeah, so I go in and then there's like 30 people behind the table and I remember going in there. And I did it how I did it in Los Angeles, which I was told, hey, the guy on Broadway doesn't really sing. Just yell it out. And I was like, okay. So I yelled it out. And then Jerry's looking at my resume and he's like, you have all these singing roles on your resume. Could I hear it sung since there's notes for the thing?

And I was like, yeah, I'll sing it for you. High B or whatever it was. And then he put his hands up in the air and then he said that was it. And I was like, okay. Stephen Aremus, who I had done a very small production at Goodspeed Opera House before he became huge.

[7:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[7:54] Sam Zeller: The Broadway arranger. Yeah. He comes over and gives me a hug and he says, it's so great to see you. And I said, it's great to see you too. And I walked out and I thought, okay, that was, that was so quick. Around the corner comes Cyndi Lauper. And she goes, she's with her little entourage and she's walking into the room. She's this little tiny thing and she goes, oh, are you here for Dawn? Which is the name of the character. And I said, oh, I just sang. And she went, God damn it. I wanted to hear you sing. And I said, well, I can go back in there and sing if you want. She said, no, no, no. You look perfect for the part. And she walked and left me. And it was the last day of auditions and it was me and drag queens in the hallway. And we were like, oh my God. That was insane.

[8:36] Sam Zeller: So I leave. I go to the deli on the corner and I'm getting my food and my phone rings and it's my agent. I got the job.

[8:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh.

[8:44] Sam Zeller: Hadn't even been a half an hour. I am dying. And I was like, I was stunned. I was absolutely stunned. And I remember I had my, I'm getting teary. I'm thinking about it. I got my food and I just sat in the corner. I cried for like 15 minutes. And I thought, this is my way of getting out of here. I mean, getting out of Los Angeles at the time because I honestly didn't know what I was going to do. And it wasn't to play Dawn. It was to play, his name is Mutt in the script, an ensemble member, but he understudies Dawn, George, like the foreman or whatever, and then Mr. Price, who makes an appearance at the beginning of the show. So I was like, four roles to learn. And I said, yeah, absolutely, I'll do it.

And I just remember going to New York and then in the 42nd Street Studios on the very first day and just seeing Harvey and Cindy. And then Cindy comes up to me and I'm standing next to the guy who's playing Dawn. And she grabs my hand. She's, oh, I'm so happy you're playing Dawn. And I pointed to the guy next to me and she didn't care. She was just like on her own little journey.

[9:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love it.

[9:54] Sam Zeller: It was so great. No, Cindy's fantastic. I got to tell you, she doesn't remember anybody's name. She calls you whatever she wants to call you and you go for it. You're like, yes, yes, Andy. Yes. Well, and for whatever reason, someone had to ask her, they said, why do you call him that? Referring to me. She used to call me Hagrid. And she says, why do you call him Hagrid? And she says, oh, he's big and hairy and everybody loves him. And I was like, okay, I'll take it. My name is Hagrid. I will go to the courthouse. I will put in a legally change of name for you, Cindy. I will change it. But she's so great. I feel like she's so lovable. Anybody would do anything for Cindy Lauper.

[10:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, she was amazing. She would be in the room in rehearsal and she'd talk like this. And then she says, but I want it to sound like this. And then she'd sing and you're like, holy cow, where did that come from?

[10:47] Sam Zeller: Oh, wow. Just effortless and beautiful and oh, just unbelievable. It was amazing. Once in a while she'd say, she'd give an outburst of something and then they would rush her out of the room because they're like, you can't sing that, Cindy, in front of all these people. But I mean, it would just be whatever, you know?

[11:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that kind of candor is amazing.

[11:06] Sam Zeller: Oh, it was great. It was great.

[11:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wasn't that? So you were with the First National for how long?

[11:12] Sam Zeller: I am the only person in the company who started it and finished it.

[11:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes!

[11:19] Sam Zeller: I don't believe in running away unless there's another job, of course.

[11:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[11:24] Sam Zeller: But the idea was that I was in a very wonderful spot and I did not have any desire to leave. A lot of people left the show because they said I'd had enough.

[11:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[11:32] Sam Zeller: I never had enough. In all honesty, it saved my life. My dad died right before the tour happened and then my mom died at the end of the tour.

[11:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

[11:41] Sam Zeller: So it was very, so difficult to deal with. And I just remember, you know, I kept my head down to the ground because I was so distraught over the whole thing. And of course, we have the funeral, my beautiful family from Kinky Boots, they all sent a beautiful flower arrangement and stuff like that. I mean, you become family.

[12:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[12:01] Sam Zeller: The show Kinky Boots is actually based on a true story, right?

[12:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[12:06] Sam Zeller: It's a shoe factory outside of London. And like many small businesses, it was really feeling the strain of large retailers exporting goods where the expenses are less.

[12:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[12:21] Sam Zeller: And so here they were, this factory that has a long tradition of making these really high quality shoes and there is no demand for it. So what were they going to do?

[12:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not anymore.

[12:31] Sam Zeller: Exactly. Like change or die sort of thing.

[12:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly.

[12:35] Sam Zeller: And so what they ended up figuring out is that they had to come up with a niche market, as they called it. And so other factories that they had known of decided to do all range, you know, hiking boots. Another one decided to go into sandals and things like that. So they were trying to figure out what kind of niche market. Now, in the real, real story, not because we have to write the lovely.

[12:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, we got to make art.

[13:00] Sam Zeller: Sure. Yes, yes, yes. But in the original concept, the original concept was fetish wear. It was like dominatrix. It was full kinky.

[13:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: More kinky than boots, maybe.

[13:10] Sam Zeller: Yes, exactly. So it was that kind of a market. It wasn't for drag queens per se, but it was for the kinky market.

[13:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Maybe BDSM.

[13:20] Sam Zeller: Yes, exactly. So the original concept, this true story was originally turned into a film, right?

[13:26] Sam Zeller: Into a British film.

[13:26] Sam Zeller: She would tell Edith Fork to play Lola. Kinky Boots then gets picked up and optioned into a musical. They get Cyndi Lauper to write the score in her first musical theatre score. Cyndi Lauper, of course, was a legend, icon, star, true colors. I mean, she really, I think at that point, become an LGBTQ advocate and icon. So it only made sense. And also she's someone who approached pop music, in my opinion, in a very theatrical, risky way. You know, kind of like maybe Freddie Mercury. Somebody who's always pushing her vocal limits to extremes. But then there's also this accessibility to her melodies and her message. She's a really, really special artist. And so I'm glad that that was then translated into musical theatre because it's a perfect fit.

Oh, I mean, we were in Vegas when we opened the show. And I remember being in the house while they were having soundcheck. And she was furious. She hated the sound. And it was like, I thought it sounded amazing. But she has, she knows. The levels were just not right. There was something that was a little off. And yeah, something had to be changed in terms of like less brass and more string. But she knew exactly what needed to be done. And thank goodness for Stephen Arimus because he was able to make the arrangements and that kind of thing. And then she'd also been on Broadway. She'd done Three Pony Opera. Absolutely. So she had her feet dipped in the Broadway pool kind of thing. But now she's gotten involved.

She has the cred now. Yeah, absolutely. So often when pop music finds its way into musicals, it still sounds like, you know, an orchestra trying to play pop music. And, you know what I mean? And with Kinky Boots, I really feel I hear what you're saying. I hear her creating like a live concert experience. It's so singy-wopper the way that it all comes out. The sexes in the heel. I mean, just all these numbers. They're so brilliant and fantastic. And kind of like what Jerry used to say about the hairspray being like 16 production numbers because they are. All of our numbers were production numbers. Let's talk about the man who gave birth to some of these amazing ideas, Mr. Jerry Mitchell, who I really respect because, number one, he knows how to make his actors look good.

Jerry Mitchell comes from more of an old school. He creates steps. I really appreciate that about him. He's like, without comparing, because there's no comparison, he's like a Tommy Tune. No, he was 100% a Tommy Tune protege. Yeah, very, very tall and long and expressive in everything that he does. And he was so, well, first day of rehearsal, he comes right up to me and he says, I didn't know you. A lot of people went to bat for you. So don't fuck this up. Thank you, Mr. Mitchell. He gave me a little wink after that. But I call him Captain. I've always called him Captain. And every time I even send him just a personal text, I always call him my Captain. Because really, I mean, it was such an honor and a privilege to be in the same room with him that I could not imagine not wanting to be at my best every single day.

That's amazing. And he knows how to create a really uplifting experience for an audience. You know, he was the choreographer for Hairspray, and I think that was really what catapulted him. He directed and choreographed Legally Blonde, which I believe is one of the best paced musicals I've ever had the privilege of seeing. And so then when he came aboard Kinky Boots, he came on as a director choreographer along with Cindy and then Harvey Fierstein, also from Hairspray, coming on to write the book or write the script based on this movie. And talk to me a little bit about Harvey. Oh, my gosh. When I went to London, he sees me in the lobby and he goes, Oh, my God, what are you doing here? He was so –

[18:11] Sam Zeller: Sam, that is a really good Harvey.

[18:24] Sam Zeller: I am really impressed. Oh, stop that. No, no, no. I'm serious. I can't do him justice. He was so sweet. I remember he would tweet things like, put those guns away, Sam. We're not in Texas or something like that because I was always – whenever I'd go on for Dawn or whatever, I'd be like, OK, we're going to teach these people what's going on here. And also during the time of the pee thing down in North Carolina about –

[18:52] Jeff Parsons: Oh, sure.

[18:53] Sam Zeller: Who's going to use the bathroom? I mean and that's when Cindy and Harvey and Jerry, they all came up with Just Pee, where you want to pee. And they did this whole –

[19:03] Jeff Parsons: Are you serious? How have I not seen this?

[19:06] Sam Zeller: Look it up. Oh, my gosh. It's like a – what do you call it? Like an after school special or whatever.

[19:11] Jeff Parsons: Sure, the more you know.

[19:13] Sam Zeller: Yes, exactly. It's one of those things. And it takes place in some man's bathroom, but it's a urinal kind of place. And everybody's poking their heads out and it's all men and women. And it's like, oh, please, we're going to really argue over what bathroom we're going to use. Just pee. Just pee. Where you want to pee. Want to pee. I love that. Oh, that's great. That's so great. It's also keeping up with the times. It's also keeping up with what's important and what's going on right now. That's wonderful. Harvey is no stranger to writing musicals for drag queens. He, of course, wrote the book to La Cage Aux Folles in the early 80s. And then after he had this kind of legendary flop called Legs Diamond in the late 80s, which was a Peter Allen musical.

Peter Allen, if you know Boy From Oz. And after that, he takes this really long break of not writing any major musical theater pieces until after he plays Edna Turnblad in Hairspray. And after that, I don't know what happened, but he starts writing musicals again. And he wrote the book for Catered Affair, which is a beautiful little show. He wrote the book for Newsies and then wrote the book for Kinky Boots. I really, I think Harvey is one of the great American playwrights. He truly is. He knows how to write and go to the heart of things. And speaking of Pride Month, he is one of the first voices in, I would say, any storytelling art form, not just theater. They really sought to create stories featuring LGBTQ characters that didn't end in some tragic suicide. The purpose of the story was not victimhood, but celebration and inclusion and empowerment. And we owe a big debt of gratitude to him for it.

[21:12] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. I mean, from Torch Song Trilogy, and then he was in Mrs. Doubtfire. I mean, he's been around.

[21:19] Sam Zeller: Seems like there's a generous spirit there.

[21:21] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.

[21:23] Sam Zeller: That's awesome. Now, the Broadway production opens in April or yeah, in April of 2013. And when it arrives on the scene, it is following the critical adoration of Matilda, the musical. Now, Matilda came to Broadway after winning like the most Olivier Awards that had ever been won by a show in London. So it comes across the pond. And if you want to listen to our amazing episode about Matilda, go back and listen to it because it is a brilliant, genius little Rubik's Cube of a show. That being said, so then Kinky Boots opens after all of that fanfare and honestly gets positive reviews, but not nearly what Matilda gets. And then a month passes by and Kinky Boots' receipts, like check the receipts, explode.

People are now just rushing to the theater. Word of mouth has spread. And I think, you know, Matilda can be kind of a darker musical and Kinky Boots is exactly the opposite. Bright, colorful, wants you to, you know, leave the theater on cloud nine. And that really shifts just this energy dynamic between the two shows so that when the Tony Awards come around, Kinky Boots is actually the show that wins Best Musical.

[22:46] Jeff Parsons: To everyone's surprise.

[22:48] Sam Zeller: I understand because I have a friend, Leslie Margarita, who she was in Matilda, so I went to go see it. And subsequently after Kinky Boots, I ended up playing Mrs. Trunchbull.

[22:59] Jeff Parsons: Did you?

[23:01] Sam Zeller: Yeah, in Massachusetts in a regional theater. That's such a fun role.

[23:06] Jeff Parsons: Oh, my God.

[23:07] Sam Zeller: It's a brilliant show that I have grown to like more and more.

[23:10] Jeff Parsons: Me too.

[23:11] Sam Zeller: Me too. And it really was a shock because everyone kept saying Matilda was going to win. I mean, Cindy was just floored and was so excited. It really does mean a lot to people, the impact that it made, that it has made on people. I remember we were in Detroit. And because of True Colors, Cindy's, it's an organization basically that helps gay and lesbian, trans youth. 40% of all homeless kids are of the LGBTQ community. And mainly because they're kicked out of their homes, they're ostracized, they're, you know, that kind of thing. So I remember they would have these little programs for the True Colors people in different cities where they would go to the theater in the morning. And they would have a whole day of like costume design, set design, how to work the box office, backstage work.

They would learn about that. That would be the afternoon. And then they would have a meal. Then they'd watch the show. And then they'd get to meet us afterwards. And then we would talk to them. Now, I remember coming into the room. It was Detroit. It was snow and everything was really cold. And these kids were standing there. And I walked in and this one kid kind of gave me this snooty little look or whatever. And then we had to introduce ourselves. And so it gets to me. It's like, hi, I'm Sam Teller and I'm a gay man. And then the look on this kid's face. And then got emotional. And then the person, the monitor said, is everything okay? And the kid said, I just understood the meaning of the show.

And we're like, what? I'm getting emotional now. He goes, I hated him. And he was pointing at me. That laugh, when he was making fun of Lola, was the laugh I hear every single day of my life. And I hated you for that. But you just told me who you were. And I had no business judging you without knowing who you were. It's what we say at the end of the show. You know, the six steps. The six steps. I should not have judged you for that. I'm sorry. And I didn't know what to say. I said, you're 15 years old. And you know who you are. I said, I bow to you for knowing that. Because I didn't know who I was at 15 years old. And here you are being so brave and saying, this is who I am. So I thank you for the apology. I accept your apology. We hugged. But, you know, but now that you've done that, boom, you go forward.

[26:00] Sam Zeller: We were in somewhere in like Edmonton, Canada. This man comes up to me in the lobby. He said, boy, two hours ago I would have called you a faggot. And I was like.

[26:14] Jeff Parsons: I think you just did.

[26:15] Sam Zeller: Yeah, exactly. And he said, my daughter, she wanted to come see the show. I don't know why. I don't know why. They drove like 16 hours. They were like on like the edge of, you know, where Alaska is. But he goes, my kid wanted to see the show. He goes, I love this show. You know, just going on and on. And he goes, now I understand my daughter even a little bit better. And I was like. Wow. You know, and I said, we have to all take a picture. Because then I sent it to Broadway Cares because we were collecting money. And I said, this is what this show has done.

[26:53] Sam Zeller: It has brought people to understanding how important, not just how important theater is, but how important humanity is, and what we can do to make this world a better place. Cause we were in Des Moines, Iowa once, and during the finale, in the middle of the finale, the whole audience stood up and we were choked up because that's never happened. And we were like, we're not done yet, you know? And we're still going up, but we were so choked up by all of the adoration and the positivity that the show gave. So, I mean, it was pretty amazing. Well, you know, theater changes lives. I think, you know, it's absolutely true. And I think musical theater has the capability of reaching us in an even deeper place because it's not just about the message.

It's about the way the music makes us feel. It's the way that the dancing and exuberance coming from the performers can infuse an audience. It isn't just about sitting back and letting this message enter your ears. It's about leaning forward and letting this entire experience seep deep into yourself. And I think Kinky Boots is one of those shows that has the power to do that. Cause I remember feeling, I came and saw you guys at the Pantages when you were in LA, and I just felt joyful. You can't put a price on that, truly. I mean, they did because it was an expensive ticket, but you really can't put a price on that. Now, let's actually go through the show and talk a little bit more about some of these great moments of the story and the work that was created by these great creators and performers.

[28:35] Sam Zeller: Well, what's gorgeous about the opening number is that it's the first 40 minutes of the movie.

[28:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, fair.

[28:42] Sam Zeller: Okay. If you watch the movie, the first 40 minutes of the movie is the opening number. It's everything encompassed. It is true. It has so much story right here at the top, even to the point of seeing flashbacks to these two lead characters' childhoods. It starts with Mr. Price and his son, Charlie, who's a little boy. And so this Mr. Price is teaching his son about dependability, right? About the tradition that he is passing on to him in terms of this shoe factory. Charlie grows up, of course, but doesn't want to take on the shoe factory because he's a son.

[29:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[29:17] Sam Zeller: And that's how we work. He has a long-term girlfriend named Nicola, and they are going to move from this small town, Northampton, to London to begin a real estate job. As soon as they do, as soon as they move to London, he receives a phone call to let him know that his father has passed and that he needs to come back and decide what's going to happen with the factory. That was never in his future. Not his plan.

[29:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[29:44] Sam Zeller: Comes back to Northampton, realizes that the factory is in deep trouble, and that his father had never told him that. They have kind of an abundance of product and nowhere to sell it. And so he goes to a pub with his kind of a childhood friend who, and I can't remember his name.

[30:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Harry.

[30:09] Sam Zeller: Okay, thank you. His family's in charge of selling shoes.

[30:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Distributing.

[30:14] Sam Zeller: Distributing. And so they have this moment of, can you buy my overstock and sell it at a cheap price? And basically the friend says, I'll help you out this time, but you got to figure out something else to do because the writing's on the wall. This factory isn't going to survive. And what's this number called?

[30:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's, it's the only time we really hear from Harry the entire show.

[30:35] Sam Zeller: It is the only time that you can see it.

[30:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Take what you got.

[30:39] Sam Zeller: Take what you got, yep. Yep, yep, yep. This is absolutely laying the groundwork of this blue collar reality. So then when we reach land of Lola, which is the entrance of the drag queen, who Charlie thinks he's saving from some hooligans.

[31:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I assume you were a hooligan.

[31:03] Sam Zeller: Yes, I was a hooligan.

[31:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. But Lola being actually a dude named Simon who was trained as a boxer from his father when he was growing up, doesn't need any protection at all. And takes off his boot, gives it a swing, actually knocks Charlie out. They take Charlie back to the club so that he can kind of come too. But in the meantime, we get to meet this amazing, vibrant character and all of her drag queen kind of chorus girls called the Angels.

[31:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Leave your expectations at the door.

[31:40] Sam Zeller: Oh my gosh, now this song is honestly when I really start respecting what Cyndi Lauper has brought to the table. Because not only do we get her ear for pop music, but she also is able to give us some really interesting lyrics.

[31:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[31:59] Sam Zeller: This one is one of my favorites. I've got a lacy silk and feel with arms as hard as steel. I am freedom, I'm constriction, a potpourri of contradiction.

[32:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Contradiction.

[32:09] Sam Zeller: What? So great.

[32:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's awesome.

[32:12] Sam Zeller: It's awesome. You hear it and you see it and it's fantastic, it really is. Now Lola was played originally by Billy Porter who has now become just a legend because of Pose and a lot of other more high profile things. But he won the Tony Award for playing Lola and is definitely a force of nature. But I can't help but feel like anybody who plays Lola is going to be a bit of a force of nature.

[32:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, when we were in, was it Philadelphia?

[32:42] Sam Zeller: I think it was Philadelphia.

[32:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We got Billy Porter to come join us on the tour because it's his hometown.

[32:47] Sam Zeller: Oh my gosh, no way. Talk to me about that.

[32:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, so fantastic. What was great is that he does that number in the nursing home at the end where his father, you know, and he's talking as if he's talking to the congregation at the nursing home. He said, oh, I just grew up just down the road from here. Oh, tears. And the applause, one time, I mean, we recorded it each time. One time, it was two minutes and 21 seconds of nonstop applause for him when he said, I just grew up down the road.

[33:21] Sam Zeller: Wow.

[33:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was really great.

[33:25] Sam Zeller: How special.

[33:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Now, I feel pretty confident about my skills as an audience member. I think I'm a great listener. I follow narrative well. However, as I reread the script in preparation for this episode, I don't think I remembered that Lola is a straight man.

[33:49] Sam Zeller: Yeah.

[33:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I did not know.

[33:52] Sam Zeller: I don't remember that at all. I thought he was a gay dude.

[33:55] Sam Zeller: Yeah, well, it's not even, it's not written in the script per se, but there is sort of a love affair that somewhat takes place between him, yeah, with him and, I wanna say, Pat.

[34:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is it Pat?

[34:11] Sam Zeller: Yeah. I think it's Pat, one of the, you know what, Pat is a woman.

[34:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, Pat can be a double gender thing.

[34:17] Sam Zeller: That's true, but in this case, Pat is a woman.

[34:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, because at one point, Charlie says, Pat's not even taking my calls because you realize that they've gone off and done, yeah. And honestly, I'm gonna be totally vulnerable here and say that when I was looking through the script and in the breakdown, it says that he's a heterosexual male that dresses in drag. And when I read that, I went, I got a little prickly and was like, ugh, of course it can't be a gay man because that would be just way too much, right? It's only okay that he dresses up in drag if he's a straight male. And that's like what we were able to bring to the gen pop. But then I took a step back and was like, calm your jets, Parsons. And I realized that that was actually my own bias, right?

In terms of gender expression. And so I actually wanted to take a moment here to review a couple of glossary terms since it is Pride Month. This is from NPR. And I found it very helpful that regardless of who you are, it gave me a great point of reference.

[35:30] Sam Zeller: So sex, the term sex, usually just refers to external anatomy, right? When we're born as humans, where we either have certain genitalia, certain levels of hormones, or even certain chromosomes. The three categories that are usually found within sex are male, female, or intersex. Intersex being actually more common than we think. It's about one in 1,500 is born with some sort of combination of the two. Now, sex is completely different from gender.

[36:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gender is often defined as a social construct of norms, behaviors, and roles that varies between societies over time.

[36:18] Sam Zeller: So gender meaning usually male, female, or non-binary. And that is usually defined by the culture's acceptance of specific details that reveal that to be. And they change. Where a woman didn't wear pants for a very long time. They were only wearing, you know, dresses. So like that would be a construct of gender. Now, gender identity within that is how we feel about ourselves.

[36:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah?

[36:49] Sam Zeller: Gender identity, okay. So that is different from sex. That is different from gender, which is determined by culture. Gender identity is based on how you feel inside. So it's not outwardly visible to anybody. We can't quote unquote tell how anybody identifies because that is all going on on the inside. And then gender expression is how we choose to express that gender identity. It gets really interesting, but very complex. So in Kinky Boots, Kinky Boots isn't really about sex or sexuality or even sexual orientation. It is about gender expression. Regardless of how you feel inside, the way you choose to express it is nobody's business.

[37:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, Cindy did it best because she titled the song Sex is in the Heel.

[37:48] Sam Zeller: Right, exactly, exactly. The way that Lola is expressing her, his, whatever pronoun is most appropriate, masculinity, because Lola identifies as a man, the way that Lola is expressing that gender is by dressing in drag. And throughout the show, we realized that is when she is the most, see, and I'm actually not certain what pronoun to use, but that is, so I'll just use the name. That is how Lola feels most empowered is when Lola is in drag. That's why when she shows up to a prize fight wearing a white cocktail dress, her father,

[38:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, exactly.

[38:31] Sam Zeller: His father disowns him. Completely disowns, right. Because the father was not comfortable with that gender expression. And I really think that one of the things that I've walked away from studying the show anew is this acceptance of gender expression, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you feel. Because ultimately, it's based on the other person's identity, not your comfortability.

[39:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right, absolutely.

[39:02] Sam Zeller: And Kinky Boots did that. You got to see all these kids in these different cities from the True Colors organizations and things like that. And of course, you have an older generation coming to see a show about drag queens, and they don't know what to do, but they're uncomfortable even. But they were the ones that were standing up and dancing at the end of the show, because they loved it.

[39:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly, and that's the power of it.

[39:27] Sam Zeller: That's the power.

[39:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, absolutely. No, I went on so many tangents. I'm so sorry.

[39:32] Sam Zeller: No, this is why it's a podcast. Tangents are welcome.

[39:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, when Charlie finally comes to at this club, Lola confides in him and says, basically, the shoes that I have to wear, these boots that I wear are really poorly made, because I'm a big old guy, and these are made for women. And so when Charlie goes back to the factory to figure out how to save it, he realizes, oh, here's my niche market, right? We can make a really high-quality boot for any man, any range of man who wants to wear any range of shoe.

[40:13] Sam Zeller: Exactly. And he sings this amazing song that I believe wasn't in the original tryout. It got written for Broadway.

[40:20] Sam Zeller: Ah, yes. A really, really great song that I can't picture the show without, but it is definitely his moment to finally start stepping into the light and his passion to save this place. He asks Lola to come on as a designer. Yeah, his prototype is not very good. I mean, it looked like a rain boot or something, and he goes, what is this? Because Lola said make it red. Oh, and it's burgundy, right? Burgundy, yes. God forbid. You know, he goes, burgundy. Burgundy! You know, but it's a shade of red, but no. No, no, no. And that's when she teaches everybody that sex is in the heel. It's sex red. It's these boots with a stiletto heel. The power, the sex is in this heel. And it's an amazing song that sounds as good as any pop record.

[41:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm. So much fun to do that number too.

[41:16] Sam Zeller: I bet. It really is kind of the Harold Hill moment when she wins over everybody, right? By the end of the number, everyone's like, all right, we'll follow you to the moon. Except for Don. Don is a little, he's, what do you call it? Don being kind of the maybe stereotypical hetero blue collar worker homophobe. Someone who I have learned to really feel sorry for. The poor straights in the world, you don't realize how many hangups you have.

[41:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and it really, and it's also unnecessary.

[41:47] Sam Zeller: It is unnecessary. That's a better word for it. You're right. And when they do have their confrontation and their fight, and then they talk in the bar afterwards, and they do shots together, things like that, there is a moment of humanity for him. I mean, he has to realize that, you know, he's a blowhard for no reason. He does it because he's insecure. He does it because he's, you know.

[42:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're wasting all this energy, Don.

[42:16] Sam Zeller: Yeah, totally. You don't need to. One of the other workers in the factory is a girl by the name of Lauren, and Lauren develops a crush on Charlie, even though he is attached to Nicola. She was originally played by Annaleigh Ashford. And I would say, let's be honest, Lauren is kind of the best part of the show. She's a lot of fun.

[42:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She's a lot of fun.

[42:36] Sam Zeller: She gets to be quirky and silly, but she also has the brains and all of that, too. And it's great, because her number... History of Wrong Guys is probably the most Cyndi Lauper song. I'm just realizing, Lauren is who Cyndi Lauper would play 20 years ago, right?

[42:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely.

[42:56] Sam Zeller: That's why I mean she's blonde. It's so cute the way they have her dressed, because she doesn't wear boots at the end. She's got cute little sexy boots, but they're not kinky boots. They're a little bit different.

[43:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't think I remember that.

[43:14] Sam Zeller: Yeah, she wears like little pink boots. Not knee-high. Not the full knee-high ones. Not the full knee-high ones. But no, it's a great character, and everyone that I got to work with who played that role was hysterical. And they all bring a different quirk to it that really makes it special, you know?

[43:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so fun.

[43:30] Sam Zeller: And they all get to have a little necklace that says Lauren, you know? So that's very cute. I remember hearing that Jerry Mitchell said that he knew he could trust Annaleigh Ashford with anything after Legally Blonde, because she had to constantly act with the dog and make it work. He's like, if she can make that funny, she can make anything funny. I mean, she's really special, and I think we will have an entire generation of young girls who will make really weird choices and weird noises because of her.

[44:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I agree. I just listened to her sending the park with George.

[44:10] Sam Zeller: With Jim Hall. And she's got a lovely voice. I mean, really a very pretty voice, too. Not just the quirky stuff that we like her for, but she also has really quite beautiful pipes. She's a special talent, for sure.

[44:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, very much so.

[44:34] Sam Zeller: After History of Wrong Guys, Lola comes to work as the new designer, and Lola has decided to dress as a man, to be more serious about his position. He wanted to dress for his audience, so he wanted to dress like a man. Now, mind you, his version of man was a little bit eccentric, too. It was like a silk and robe and that kind of thing. But it wasn't the full Lola glamour.

[45:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, not at all.

[45:04] Sam Zeller: And when he shows up, the spark is gone. He just doesn't feel like himself.

[45:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[45:09] Sam Zeller: And he gets validated with that by having Don laugh at him and making fun of him. And then, so of course, he gets upset and he takes off and he runs into the restroom. And Charlie goes in after him, right? And they don't even know which restroom, because even then, that was the joke. Because it's like, where did he go? Which one did he go into?

[45:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In the men's room.

[45:29] Sam Zeller: Oh, okay. Charlie goes in there to talk to him. And this is one of the most unique modern musical theater moments in recent memory, I think. Number one, because I'm Not My Father's Son, is it's a beautiful song that is about sometimes how we feel like we don't measure up to our dad's expectations. And that certainly is, I can't think of another song that really looks at it in the same sympathetic way.

[46:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's every young man's struggle, too. I think every man can relate to it, gay or straight.

[46:05] Sam Zeller: They want to live up to their father.

[46:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[46:09] Sam Zeller: And number two, the way that Jerry Mitchell staged it, nobody moves. It is probably the most still musical number I've ever seen in theater.

[46:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. There are a couple of moments where I think he moves over and sits down or whatever. But once he gets to a point, he stays there and they are concentrating on each other. And then that's why when Charlie chimes in and sings a little snippet of I'm Not My Father's Son, he realizes that they are very similar in their quest to find acceptance, to find love, to find success, whatever it is that they're looking for. They're both living in the shadow of what their father had hoped they would have. And that's why it's so lovely, because by the end of it, they're like, let's mix some blues. Let's get to work.

[47:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, let's get to work. And the end of the act is Everybody Say Yeah, which when you hear the title of that song and guess what it is, it is exactly that. Everybody say yeah. And everybody says yeah.

[47:14] Sam Zeller: I think that song was really one of the last ones made because they said, if I remember the story correctly, they were like, oh, we need a number here. You know, finale, like everyone, everyone's got to just say yeah. And she's like, okay. And then she came up with Everybody Say Yeah.

[47:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Careful of the note you give Cyndi Lauper.

[47:40] Sam Zeller: I think that's how it was created. It was just like, they were trying to figure out what could we, it's got to be like, everybody's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[47:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How cool.

[47:47] Sam Zeller: Everybody say yeah. And also, and it became that number. In its simplicity, though, really kind of lays the groundwork to create a really complex staging of it. And this is, I think, one of Jerry Mitchell's highlights in the show is, he uses the conveyor belts that the shoes come on as a production number. And I can only imagine that this took a long time to rehearse.

[48:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Very long time to rehearse.

[48:11] Sam Zeller: And we had, you know, backup in case, you know, and there was a couple of times, very rare, did it not work. But there were a couple of times that something malfunctioned. I don't think, I think we maybe stopped the show once in the four years that we did it. I mean, that's pretty amazing.

[48:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, I remember one time, there's like a brace that they're hooking, they're hooked together down below.

[48:35] Sam Zeller: Okay, the two conveyor belts.

[48:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, there's actually four.

[48:40] Sam Zeller: Oh, there's four of them. Okay. So and they're, you know, as they come out, we have to release them so that they can be separated. And then it became the maze that it was. One night, I could not separate them. And when you're when you are on stage, and there is no, you know, cut, take two, you are, I've become the woman whose child is underneath the car. And you become so empowered and strong. I went down there and I pulled as hard as I could. And I, I blew up the floor. And I came down the sucker did separate but it was it was bolted in. I don't know what happened. But it was like, I mean, I remember like, you had this like, john valjean moment.

[49:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[49:33] Sam Zeller: I don't remember what city we were in. But it was like, Providence or something like that. But the crew gave me a crew t shirt, because I, we're making the piece move.

[49:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But it's no, there were like buttons to push, and it would make the treadmill go slow. And then there would be one button that would make it go faster. And then just stop it. I mean, everything had to be done, but beautifully choreographed. And that's why when Jerry was, you know, trying to figure this out. He had the treadmills on the street in front of his apartment. And he at night, you know, at three o'clock in the morning, he'd have the place, you know, blocked off. And he was creating flipping doing all sorts of things. What can we do with these things?

[50:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, what how can we make this into a production number?

[50:23] Sam Zeller: It's a great way to end the first act, a first act that I feel is really tight. It's as good a first act as I can think of. It's it's really terrific. So now, so now act two starts.

[50:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And, and of course, things need to fall apart a little bit before they get better.

[50:39] Sam Zeller: So, so the the tension between Lola and Don has continued to escalate to the point now where they have decided to have a boxing match. Little does Don know that Lola has been training for this moment her entire life. See, I forgive me for all my pronouns are all over the place, people.

[51:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's okay. No, you're making it clear. It's okay.

[51:06] Sam Zeller: And Don, of course, thinks that this is his fight. No problem. Charlie knows the truth and is really terrified for Don's overall health. And in the in the movie, it was a arm wrestling fight.

[51:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, was it really?

[51:20] Sam Zeller: Yeah, it was.

[51:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I haven't seen the movie.

[51:21] Sam Zeller: It was just an arm wrestle. But Jerry happened to be in London and he went into a pub and it was called Fisticuffs. And it was a pub, but in the back room was a ring, was an actual boxing ring. And he went, that's what it needs to be. Because what are you going to do on stage? Just an arm wrestling match? No, we need we need to have a boxing fight. And again, that's all choreographed and everything was done, you know, to the to the nth degree.

[51:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's why, I mean, Jerry won Tony for the choreography. And people go, what do you mean? There was a lot of choreography in that show. And it was intricate and it was damn right beautiful. Really, really gorgeous.

[52:00] Sam Zeller: I mean, between his stuff and Matilda, which is one of the most intricately staged things I've ever seen.

[52:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a pretty great year for innovation.

[52:08] Sam Zeller: Oh, my gosh. I mean, that, well, the opening number in Matilda, where all the parents and the kids.

[52:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm.

[52:13] Sam Zeller: My, my, my sesh.

[52:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my God, that that intricate that choreography really was was really quite good.

[52:20] Sam Zeller: Absolutely.

[52:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Props to all of them.

[52:22] Sam Zeller: Yeah, seriously, seriously. But now they're at the pub and there's this great, this great number. One of the angels is like the emcee in this corner.

[52:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There are some great lyrics in that number as well.

[52:30] Sam Zeller: It looks like, I mean, Lola is just kicking his trash, right? Just taking him to town round after round. And then at the very last moment, she allows him to win because she realizes he probably needs it more than her. And she's willing to.

[52:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh, because I completely forgot they had this agreement where he has to, Lola has to do whatever Don says and Don has to do whatever Lola says.

[53:04] Sam Zeller: So Don's idea was the boxing match.

[53:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[53:08] Sam Zeller: And Lola basically says, me losing the match is going to be a lot easier than you doing what I've asked you to do. And Lola explains her perspective and then gives him her challenge, which is.

[53:21] Sam Zeller: Accept someone for who they are.

[53:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Just beautiful. Let's see, where do we go after that? Then things like start falling apart. Everybody's really stressed out because there's going to be this fashion show coming up, right?

[53:32] Sam Zeller: In Milan, yeah.

[53:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is that real, by the way?

[53:35] Sam Zeller: Well, that was what the whole premise of the thing is, is that there is this fashion show in Milan that highlights shoes. And the thing is, is that when you have the niche market.

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