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[0:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are beginning a miniseries on the pod using the long list of listener requests we've received from you all over the past few years. What we did was we looked through all of those titles to see if there were some commonalities maybe that rose to the surface. Is there a theme that seems to be connecting to all of you wonderful listeners? I mean, besides great stories and music, obviously. The first idea that materialized was the exploration of the American dream. It's something we've discussed before.

It's all over the place in musical theatre. How could it not be in such a Western art form, right? But this will be the first of three episodes that will look at the different viewpoints on the pursuit of that elusive American dream. Today, we are discussing the musical Rags, which was a listener request from a couple of you, including Jill, who wrote in saying, quote, I was first introduced to the show via a live bootleg tape of the Broadway show and later by the CD. It's a truly glorious score and a terrific cast. I really feel it deserves some musical theatre podcast love. Unquote. Also, listener Roseanne wrote us requesting Rags and had an interesting story to share. Quote, I was in musical theatre for a long time, and at one point many years ago, I took a class with Andy Gale, who was in the original cast.

Really? Okay, Samantha just made a face. I can't wait to hear. At one point, I took a class with Andy Gale, who was in the original cast and played the Irish tenor, I think. He assigned various songs from the show to everyone in the class, and I sang Blame It on the Summer Night. Then he assigned us to go to the Lincoln Center Performing Arts Library and watch the taped original production. The whole experience was super interesting. He really wanted a legacy for this lost show. Unquote. Now, chatting with me about this musical that back in 1987 was a flop, not a bad word, is someone who was last seen on Broadway as Hoddle in Bartlett Sher's revival of Fiddler on the Roof. She's also originated several lead roles in world premier musicals, including today's heroine, Rebecca, in the recent revisal of Rags at Goodspeed Opera House. So everyone, please welcome the wonderful Samantha Massell. Yay!

[3:11] Samantha Massell: Yay!

[3:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, first of all, explain thyself. You made the face when I was talking about Roseanne's.

[3:19] Samantha Massell: Okay, this is a deep cut. All right, so I know Andy Gale.

[3:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh.

[3:25] Samantha Massell: Andy Gale's husband, his name is Bobby, and Bobby was my child wrangler when I did La Boheme on Broadway. This is going to full circle in a second, all right? Are you ready for this? So Bobby was like a huge figure for me when I was a kid. He made our experience backstage at La Boheme, I mean, just so sensational. He worked with every kid on Broadway, like he was the guy. When I was doing Rags, the young actor who was cast to play my son, his name is Christian, and he had been, I'm pretty sure Matilda on Broadway, which Bobby was the wrangler of. So Bobby and Andy came up to Goodspeed to see the kid they had worked with in La Boheme, he had worked with La Boheme, playing the mother to a kid they'd worked with in Matilda. And it was just this unbelievable full circle thing, because like Bobby, you know, they're like parent figures when they're backstage with us.

[4:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course.

[4:17] Samantha Massell: And there's that, one of my favorite lyrics in the show, and this is also, we'll unpack this later, is Stephen Schwartz's favorite lyric he has said, which is, there's a morning I want someday to see all the children of my children are there. And I was like, I, in a way, I am Bobby's kid, and then Christian's my kid, and Christian was Bobby's kid. And it was like this crazy thing. And then his husband happened to be in the original cast.

[4:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible.

[4:41] Samantha Massell: Unbelievable. So it's very special that they came up to see the show.

[4:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, how cute, how sweet.

[4:47] Samantha Massell: So sweet.

[4:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That is kind of what theatre is all about. It's like realizing how big and small the world is and celebrating it throughout your lifetimes. And I say lifetimes because I feel like, especially for someone like you, who has been doing this for, since you were a wee babe, like, it does have to feel like several periods of your life.

[5:10] Samantha Massell: For sure.

[5:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So La Boheme was your debut, right? Was your Broadway debut?

[5:14] Samantha Massell: Yes.

[5:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What a fascinating, I know we're not here to talk about Baz Luhrmann, but like, oh my gosh, what an interesting debut.

[5:21] Samantha Massell: Yes, it was a very interesting debut. It's funny, I'm so far away from it now that I don't remember much of the rehearsal room.

[5:29] Samantha Massell: I remember the day-to-day. I was in seventh grade, like, I grew up in New York City, and I was a member of the Children's Chorus at New York City Opera. There's actually a great article, the guy who ran that choir now works at the Met and the Children's Choir. It's a great article in the Times that just came out about him, if anyone's interested.

[5:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[5:46] Samantha Massell: But I had been in the Children's Choir at New York City Opera, which was then at the New York State Theatre, which is the building, if you're looking at Lincoln Center, on the left.

[5:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: On the left, right.

[5:54] Samantha Massell: So I spent a lot of my childhood over here doing, like, on Monday night, I was in Carmen, and on Tuesday night, I was in La Boheme. And like, I didn't really, wasn't like an opera person, but I just did it because it was an opportunity to perform.

[6:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[6:06] Samantha Massell: Anyway, when the appointment came in for La Boheme on Broadway, they were seeing all these like young theatre kids, and I'd been auditioning for musicals, too. And then, you know, like, at audition three, when they were like, can you learn this Italian? I was like, I know the Italian, I've done it 65 times.

[6:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh!

[6:22] Samantha Massell: Um, so yeah, and I ended up doing La Boheme on Broadway when I was 12, going on 13.

[6:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, which is then why, okay, I have so many thoughts popped into my brain. But like, but Rags is kind of operatic, right? I mean, it was starred like an opera diva from the get.

[6:41] Samantha Massell: So like, it has the breadth of this huge kind of American epic score.

[6:49] Samantha Massell: Well, first of all, I don't know if I would, I, when you say Rags is sort of operatic, I think it was sort of like a weird thing that Teresa Stratus ended up originating the role and was an opera singer. And because it really is written in a very traditional musical structure, you know, scene, song, it's not like all through it.

[7:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, no, absolutely not.

[7:05] Samantha Massell: But it certainly has the role of Rebecca, and it's even different, much more different in the current iteration. But the role of Rebecca, in the production that played on Broadway in the 80s was a very, I don't want to call it stratospheric, because it's not like she's singing high C's. It's just a very vocally expansive, lush role, which is why I think, you know, people associate it as operatic, because it is that and Teresa was singing it. And even the production itself, and even the production, the production itself, like you go back and watch the bootleg, which God bless him for making a bootleg of this thing that ran for four performances. But it is very skeletal and shadowy. And there are all of these heightened emotions. And it does feel, I mean, leading into a season with Les Mis, that it was 100% a pop opera. There are these kind of operatic overtones for the writing of the late 80s.

[8:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It feels high stakes. I mean, I think that's what it is.

[8:03] Samantha Massell: Yes, even chess. All Judy Kuhn shows.

[8:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All the Judy Kuhn shows. I feel it's not a style that's ever was interesting to me, honestly. It's something that sort of, in terms of opera itself, it's something that kind of fell into my lap as a child in New York who wanted to perform. Like my mom heard about the Children's Choir. So I did the Children's Choir. I wanted to do musicals, like I loved musicals. And when I auditioned for this Broadway show that happened to be an opera, like it was like, it just all sort of fell into place. But yeah.

[8:31] Samantha Massell: So then I have to tell you that Fiddler is my favorite musical. I've gone on the record as saying that it's my most favorite. I feel like it's the show that's about my people that's not about my people. And I hope that doesn't sound offensive to anyone.

[8:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, it's completely correct.

[8:46] Samantha Massell: But I think it speaks to like the beautiful universality of the writing and the storytelling and the characters. But the fact that you did Fiddler, and by the way, can you talk a little bit about your relationship to that story and show?

[9:00] Samantha Massell: I would love to.

[9:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Talk to me about like Hoddle and I guess just the writing of that piece because Joseph Stein wrote the book to Fiddler on the Roof. He also wrote the original book. So what are the strengths of that show? And what did you find yourself connecting to when you did it?

[9:17] Samantha Massell: So first of all, I don't know why this is so on my brain. It has been on for the last year. When we were doing Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway, we had a dialect coach come in and they were like, the name is Hoddle. Hoddle, like ha. So for like years, I've been like Hoddle. And then when I did it at the Muny last summer and I was playing Seidel, our dialect coach was like, Huddle. And I was like,

[9:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Someone tell me what's going on.

[9:39] Samantha Massell: All the time. I'm like, all the interviews I did where I was like, Hoddle. And she's like, no, it's Huddle. And I was like, because I thought it was Huddle. But then they said Huddle. And I don't know. Anyway, Fiddler is one of, whatever.

[9:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Whatever. We all know her. We love her.

[9:53] Samantha Massell: We know her. We love her. Yeah, she sings great songs. Fiddler is one of my all time favorite musicals as well. And it's a musical that is just like very important to me. I grew up watching that. I watched Annie and I watched Fiddler. I watched Annie and I watched Fiddler. It was just one of those tapes and then the other tape. It was just my whole personality, basically. My mom tells these stories of me when she would have dinner parties when I was a kid. I'd be like, all right, everybody, sit down and eat your chicken. And here goes Fiddler on the Roof from the beginning. I'm going to play all the parts and you're going to sit here.

[10:25] Samantha Massell: So it was something that was very connected to me. And I went on Birthright after my freshman year of college. And I didn't grow up very religious. But I went on Birthright. And I remember visiting the Western Wall and I didn't know what to write. I wasn't bat mitzvahed. I don't know anything really. I know like basic stuff. And I wrote the lyrics to Sabbath Prayer, folded them up and shoved them in the wall. So in so many ways, Fiddler to me is a massive part of my connection to my heritage. My family on my mother's side left Lithuania in 1905, which is the same year that they leave Anatevka. It's just so many things that are like, I feel this cosmic hole in parallel. So yeah, Fiddler is very important to me. Getting to do it on Broadway the way we did, the whole thing just was completely surreal. Yeah.

[11:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My gosh, I'm already feeling so many things. We haven't even started talking about Rags. This is danger zone for me. We might be in like Splash.

[11:39] Samantha Massell: We're going to be three hours later. It's a perfect musical. There's a reason why people love it. There's a reason why people connect with it. I'm sure you've heard the famous story about Japan. Yeah, exactly.

[11:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I remember talking to Sheldon about this. Like, it's so-

[11:50] Samantha Massell: The Great Sheldon Harnick.

[11:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The Great Sheldon Harnick. It's one of those shows where it is, it knows exactly what it is, and there is no fact and it is so consistent and it is tied with a bow of what it is. Like, it is wrapped in wrapping paper of what it is. You hear those chords, it just connects to your gut.

[12:09] Samantha Massell: The humanity of it all is crazy.

[12:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[12:11] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I completely agree. I love it. I feel grateful, very grateful to have gotten to do it.

[12:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, Rags is traditionally thought of as Joseph Stein, the writer's sequel to what happens after Tevye's family or a family like his when they would arrive to the United States. It comes at an interesting time for the careers of everyone involved on the writing staff. So, we have Joseph Stein, of course, who, I mean, his great masterpiece is Fiddler on the Roof, but he also did Plain and Fancy. He's really good at writing about small communities and the everyday realities of it. We look at the Amish community in Plain and Fancy in like a really sweet, beautiful way because they are a sweet, beautiful community. You know what I mean? He was always trying to pay homage, I think, to the communities that he was writing about.

After Fiddler, though, he doesn't have a lot of big hits. Oh, Zorba's another one where it's like, you know, talking about a specific community, right? He doesn't have a lot of hits after that, including The Baker's Wife. However, the good news is that on The Baker's Wife, he works with Stephen Schwartz. Mr. Schwartz comes

[13:29] Samantha Massell: After having maybe one of the biggest decades anybody could ask for in the 1970s, he has Godspell. He has Pippin, right? He has the magic show. He's like literally a child, and he has three Broadway shows running on Broadway at the same time. And then the 80s come, and he kind of does some weird, interesting stuff. Working is a project that he spearheads, writes a couple songs for. He does the same thing with Personals. Did you ever hear of that show Personals, which is about like people looking for love in the want ads? And he writes a couple songs for that, but he's not writing complete scores. He's doing these kind of interesting collaborations where everyone puts a little bit in the pot, and it's an exploration of a larger idea.

This is really important to me because it kind of comes back to Rags in a very real way. The composer is the great Charles Strauss, which is one of the other reasons why I was really excited to do this show because we just lost Mr. Strauss, and he is one of my guys. I sang at his funeral.

[14:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Stop it!

[14:50] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I'll tell you all about it. Because I think it's interesting. It was very meaningful to be there and to sing, but it was interesting hearing his children speak about Rags. Oh my gosh, I'm so happy you're here. Okay, so I just want to say for myself that Charles Strauss is one of my dudes, and that everybody knows his songs. Everybody can sing, can hum a Charles Strauss tune.

[15:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's so true.

[15:14] Samantha Massell: But they might not know him.

[15:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Know it. Yes.

[15:18] Samantha Massell: And so he's both celebrated and underappreciated at the same time.

[15:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's so real.

[15:29] Samantha Massell: Okay, tell me about the funeral, please.

[15:32] Samantha Massell: I want to jump off what you were just saying about Charles. I said earlier, Annie and Fiddler were my things. So it was sort of wild to get to work with both of these people on some of the last big things that they did. I mean, those shows built me. They built me. I remember my first job when I graduated from college, I did an encore show, It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman. And I'm one of those kids, I'm an actor, I'm a professional. And I say this with a lot of, I'm a fan. I love musicals. You don't do this unless you just love musicals. And I really love the history and all of this stuff. And Charles walked in to our first day of rehearsal for It's a Bird, It's a Plane, It's Superman. And I cried. I was like, oh my god, Charles Strauss is here. And I asked him to take a picture. And I'm so grateful I did. You'll see.

[16:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For real?

[16:23] Samantha Massell: I'm like 22 and I'm like, oh my gosh. But yeah, it's interesting. When I was in college, Alan Menken came out and he did like a workshop master class thing. And he does this 22 minute medley of his songs. And what's so interesting about Alan, and I think this also follows for Charles, is Alan could play that room in a room of 80 musical theatre majors at Michigan, and we were all losing our shit. Like every song, we were like, that one! No, I love this one! He could have gone to a room of engineers and had the same experience. And that's what's so universal about it. And it's a similar thing with Charles. He wasn't writing animated films for the 90s, for our heyday. But these songs raised us. Like, Tomorrow raised us. That is such a, it is an iconic song in American culture. And people don't know the man behind it, but they know the material. I mean, art is so amazing that way.

[17:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is. And I especially love a song that takes on a life of its own, which is like this little redheaded girl belting it out. But then you break it down and Cynthia Erivo and Sara Bareilles sing it at the Tony Awards. And you're like, that's right. This song is stunningly composed. Like, it's just a great song, period. Right? Let alone being iconic. And I feel that way about so many of his songs where you're like, these are just great tunes. You know, they're great tunes. And they're sharp, like, Birdie and Superman, like, those are great, sharp scores. They are fun and intelligent, and they're bouncy, but they're not like, they're just, they're brilliant. He elevates pop music in a way that makes it sophisticated and still totally approachable. And earwormy.

[18:09] Samantha Massell: And people forget that that was pop music of its day. People forget that Birdie is pop music. And like, you know what I mean? Like, they forget that. I was very privileged to be asked to sing at the funeral, at the memorial service, actually, is probably the better word.

[18:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, great point.

[18:24] Samantha Massell: But yeah, it was his family, each of his children spoke. And it was funny, you know, a lot of them talk about, a couple of them mentioned their favourite score, and they all said Rags. And I thought that was so funny. Like, when your dad wrote Annie, I can't even imagine being in elementary school being like, my dad wrote Annie, like, unbelievable. So it's so, but they all see what Rags did and what Rags was that was different. And there's such an appreciation for it in his family. And I was so moved by that, because as a part of the little legacy of Rags, if I can even say that, like, as a part of whatever that is, I feel it's meaningful to me that it means something to his kids and to his family. Like, we sang, I sang Children of the Wind, and Stephen played.

[19:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Dead. Oh, that's the wrong word to use. But you know what I mean.

[19:14] Samantha Massell: Definitely the wrong word.

[19:16] Samantha Massell: That's fantastic. Anyway. It was a beautiful service. It was really, really beautiful.

[19:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's wonderful. I'm sitting here listening to you and thinking like about all of his different songs. He's also such an empathic composer, because I think of all of the times that I've worked with little kids, and if I'm wanting them to tap into some sort of, I don't know, bigger emotion, I'll pull out It's a Hard Knock Life, because they just get it. Right?

[19:44] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I agree.

[19:45] Samantha Massell: They understand the like, throwing the rag down on the ground and, you know, stomping their foot in a way that they don't do for other songs. There's just something really easy to invest in emotionally in his songs.

[20:00] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I when I was a little kid, I did this like performing arts class. And one of the songs I was weirdly assigned was Rags from Rags. And even so big, I was like, what, like 10 years old singing Rags from Rags. And I was like, I get this. I feel this very deeply.

[20:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I did. I think I really did. Yeah.

[20:20] Samantha Massell: No, I buy it where we feel things very deeply in the musical theater. His career is also really fascinating to me, because some of the projects he chose to work on are a bit mind boggling at times. And yet everyone has some great tunes. So even though he had Bye Bye Birdie, and Applause, and freaking Annie in 77, then we once again get to the 1980s. And there are some strange things happening. He does a Broadway musical, which is a really interesting take on, like satirizing, creating a woke musical is kind of how I would maybe talk about that show. So and that's like smash, it sounds like.

[21:05] Samantha Massell: Kinda, kinda exactly. Except that it's very much tied to his experience when he was creating Golden Boy for Sammy Davis, Jr. And it was written, had a book written by the guy who did The Wiz. So it's also kind of playing on the trend of black musicals being a white producer's dream. Like it's really interesting stuff. But it totally flopped, ran for one performance. Then right after that was Dance a Little Closer, which famously got the name close a little faster. And because it only ran a performance. And then after that comes Rags, which of course, was another flop. So like he but all of these shows are really interesting, have really great stuff in it. And Rags, I think may be the best of them all.

[21:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I didn't know that about a Broadway musical. I literally was like, he's talking about a show about theater, it must be Applause. Like I didn't know not a single thing you were talking about.

[22:02] Samantha Massell: No, it's like a it's like a show within a show.

[22:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm embarrassed.

[22:04] Samantha Massell: No, no, no, but nobody knows it. It's like literally, literally.

[22:14] Samantha Massell: So when Joseph Stein comes to, I believe it's good old Joe's idea to do this, because once again, the sequel of Fiddler, when he comes to Charles Strauss, and then Stephen Schwartz signs on, and they all start working on it together. The first reading as I know, and please, you know, correct me if you know differently. The first kind of big workshop was directed by Schwartz himself. Which is right, I don't like there wasn't completely there wasn't a set director. And I wonder if that's one of the reasons why he wanted to just be a lyricist, just be a lyricist, whatever that means. But it was because he wanted he wanted to look at a director directorially. And then this is where like the working and the personals of it all kind of comes into play because the very first iteration of the show didn't have a central character.

It did feel like in working sort of way this huge look at what it means to be an immigrant and we have so many different characters and so many different ideas that are being explored between that first workshop. And what comes later is the character of Rebecca. And the story starts to revolve around her. Now, spoiler alert, the version that you did has a new script by David Thompson, who is a huge fan of Joseph Stein. And, you know, he's the best and and is also just we talked about him in hushed overtones at on the show, because he of course, wrote the book to Steal Peer. But he said that as he was revising the script, he went he just poured through all of the versions of the show that Joseph Stein had written, and they were not a few.

They just kept rewriting and rewriting and rewriting until they finally got to a place where they wanted to open it on Broadway. Let's just do a little bit more context for the original Broadway production. They go out of town, they have a director, she gets fired three weeks into it. And so that's Joan Micklin Silver, right? Yes, yes, yes. And Schwartz and Stein and Strauss just kind of take over and do their thing for the tryouts until they get Gene Sachs to come in and try and basically all he does is iron like nothing is super crazy changed, but he but he tries to iron out some of the things that weren't working to get it into a place where it can open in New York. It does open in New York to largely negative reviews.

Teresa Stratas, who is this big opera diva is playing Rebecca, she, I think, missed quite a few performances early on and their stories. But at the same time, she was a force of nature. And one of the big draws for people and they were excited to see her in a Broadway musical. Unfortunately, she never did another one. And she didn't even do the recording. And she didn't do the recording, which is now what brings the other synchronicity is the person who did the recording was Julian McGinnis, who was the original Huddle in Fiddler on the Roof. So like, isn't that crazy? It's almost like our huddles or huddles or however we want to say them. Pipeline, it's a pipeline from Huddle to Rebecca. Maybe anyway, but so. So can you tell me about this character? Because I think she is one of the great musical theater heroines. And, and many people don't know her.

[25:48] Samantha Massell: Sure. Well, I certainly I will say, transparently, I can't really speak to what was on the page in the 1980s. I'll try because I really I did. I did as much work as I could. I know that when they were revising this again, you said earlier when they like got it, we're getting it ready for the out of town. And then for Broadway, they had centered the story on Rebecca. And I think the biggest change they actually made further when we got to the Goodspeed version, and then the development version after that was they focused it on her more. So they had, I think people still felt like that Broadway production was too many stories hard to understand. And if I may interrupt really quickly, yeah, like such a common criticism for stories about the American immigrant experience.

When I think about Paradise Square, I think about New York, New York, all of these different shows that are trying in a way to represent what it means to be someone coming to America, specifically New York. The criticism I always hear is that there's too many stories that's not focused.

[26:59] Samantha Massell: Or is it a writer's trap that we always fall into? We felt that in the original version, things happened to Rebecca. And now in this version, Rebecca makes things happen. So she is now the person who is creating her own fate. And she's a more active character. Once again, I don't have the ability to fully compare contrast. I've actually never seen the full bootleg, though I would love to, even though bootlegs are bad. Bootlegs are bad, and it's my only lifeline to history sometimes. I'm so sorry. I feel so bad saying that. But yeah, as an actor, it's really hard when you see somebody filming. It's really distracting. At the same time, I want to see that. Okay, so it's like the devil on my shoulder, the angel on my shoulder.

It's hard. So I think that was their main thing of just making her more active. Rebecca comes from extraordinarily tragic circumstances, and they're different in the revisal than they were in the original. Yes, her husband doesn't show up at the end of Act One in the revisal. Her husband's dead. So she is a widow, a young widow, with a young child coming to America without even the money to cross the border when the boat lands. So this is what I think a lot of this conversation is going to be, is me being like, okay, so wait, so what is it now? Because I do want people to get excited about maybe doing this show. Is it licensed? The new version, is it licensed? I think it is licensed. I'm pretty sure it's licensed.

Because the score is fantastic. The characters are great. And I'm really excited to hear some of this. So, and this is Jeffrey asking. So when they leave Russia, because they do leave Russia, they're Russian Jews. Once again, the Fiddler tie-in. It's because of the pogroms. And has her husband been killed there? Her husband was killed in Europe. They're running away from the pogroms, and they get to the port and they get on the boat. But it is treacherous. Okay, when I say this is maybe the biggest change that any musical has made to just completely eliminate the husband character, but also one of the best choices. So what it does is we always want more stakes, more urgency. And this puts her in a position where she is, there's no lifeline that's going to show up.

It also sets up, there's a love triangle now that's set up. There's a character who sort of replaces Nathan, which is this character of Mr. Bronfman, who's a German Jew. And then there's the character of Saul has been turned into Sal. So Sal is an Italian immigrant. And what this ends up doing is, something I think, once again, I did not see the version in the 80s. But the immigrant experience in the history is so vast. But I think by focusing on mostly Russian Jews, but showing us German Jews, and showing us Italians, in the new version of the show, you get a sense of the hierarchy of when somebody shows up, how they're kicked in the ass by the people who are there, eventually they rise, and then the new people come.

So it's all of these different ethnic groups showing up at different times. And first, there's a new kid on the block, and then power, and social status, money, and also hatred. German Jews looked upon the Russian Jews like they were vermin, do you know what I mean? And the Italians looked upon, and the Irish looked upon, and it was this whole hierarchical structure of immigrants. Yeah.

[31:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that still even exists in colorism.

[31:07] Samantha Massell: Oh, for sure.

[31:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Once on this island comes to mind in the moment. But yes, absolutely, there is still somehow a social structure of hate.

[31:15] Samantha Massell: It never ends. It never stops. I roll my eyes when I look back at the original review sometimes, because it talks about how the show's very dark, and it only shows a one-sided version of what it means to be an immigrant, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm like, where was all that criticism when Les Mis came out six months later? It's really interesting when we're complaining about shows being depressing, but then we look at what some of the most popular shows of all time are. And they're depressing.

[31:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And they're pretty depressing. So I don't know if that's a worthy criticism, but I do understand that the stakes and the character relationships have to deliver it in a way that is still enjoyable for an audience to take in.

[32:04] Samantha Massell: There's so much joy in the new version. I mean, listen, this is still a hard story, but it has a beautiful, empowered ending. There are moments of joy and levity and humor. There are very funny moments and songs. There's a lot of stuff in this. It's not a funeral for three hours. It's just not that at all. Yeah, I always feel like that's a little bit of a cheap response to things.

[32:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Agreed. One of the things that I really wanted to focus on with this first show in our little miniseries is the why. Why people come to America. Why do people want to immigrate to America? I think it's, first of all, a branding thing. America has been very good at branding it as a place of possibility, as a place where you can come and have freedoms. My people definitely immigrated to America for religious freedom, and so that was what was attractive to them. What's bringing Rebecca?

[33:04] Samantha Massell: I think it's the hope for a better life. I think the situation in Europe is just simply untenable. It is untenable. That's why they left Anna Tewka. And I think that's just what people did. That's what Jews did. I mean, there were fewer and fewer places to go. I would feel dumb if I didn't then say, I highly, highly doubt that anybody comes to this country with the intention to steal people's jobs. I just want to say that.

[33:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, of course not. I think that's a really valid thing to say, given our current cultural conversation about this. Once again, a reason why I wanted to explore rags. I think that people do come to this country for very personal, very emotional, often out of traumas that we can only imagine. Imagine. And what's interesting about rags is that originally when it opened, we are on a boat headed into Ellis Island, and we're hearing immigrants talk. That's the same.

[34:15] Samantha Massell: Okay, doing I Remember. What meets them, and it's interesting because Ron Field was the original choreographer. He's the original cabaret choreographer.

[34:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, wow.

[34:26] Samantha Massell: So what met them in the original Broadway production were these two guys dressed in all white suits. They're meeting this group of people dressed in rags, and they're kind of commenting and doing this vaudevillian song and dance to a song called Green Horns. Green Horns, of course, being a derogatory term for immigrants. In Stephen Schwartz's great lyric, he's saying greenhorns keep this country green. They are our little secret weapon to help people get rich is that we then have people who are so down on their luck, once again, not coming to steal people's jobs, but are looking for any sort of work to make any sort of money that then we can take advantage of them and build our own little empires on their backs. And it's this weird, almost like money, money, money, money, money, money, money thing that opened the show, and it was a device that never really appeared after that. So I'm interested in the opening of the new musical.

[35:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You have I Remember. Did they put?

[35:37] Samantha Massell: If when you say I remember, are you referring to like immigrants?

[35:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, so this is actually not I think I'm misremembering something. It's a little different. So basically, I don't remember if this is what we did at Goodspeed or what we did after because we've done so. Okay, let's preface that by saying how many iterations of this have I done? Yes. So after Fiddler, I can also tell you the story of how I ended up in this.

[36:02] Samantha Massell: Please. We somehow completely skipped that.

[36:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please. Thank you.

[36:05] Samantha Massell: Yeah, no, it's a good story. I did Hunchback of Notre Dame with Stephen at La Jolla Playhouse and Paper Mill, which was a really special experience. And I got to know Stephen a little bit. And when Fiddler closed, I had heard rumblings because this show had sort of been kicking around in development at one point at Roundabout, I think. And I'd heard rumblings of something that was going to happen. And then it was announced at Goodspeed. And I emailed Stephen and I was like, Stephen, hi. I don't know why I like I was like, I guess I was like, having a lot of guts. I was like, Hey, Stephen, how are you doing? He's the best, by the way, I feel like I should feel so grateful to know him. He's just the nicest guy.

And I was like, listen, I've heard this, you know, I mean, come on. But I was like, I heard this is happening. I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring. I think I'd be really right for Bella. And he wrote back and he right away, he was like, you are really right for this. But I actually think you're right for Rebecca. We've aged her down. We made her younger. So that was part of what they did was they made Bella younger and Rebecca younger. So Rebecca was younger and had even more to fight for. Essentially, it was hard. Yeah. And he was like, I will set you up an appointment. So he he like set up the audition for me. Essentially, I came through my agents like whatever. And I had the audition.

And then they kept three of us to sing for Stephen was there for the original. And then they kept Charles came in the afternoon and three of us sang for him and did the thing. And then that booked me a reading. So I did a reading of it. And I was supposed it was like Good Speeds produced reading and it was completely closed door like nobody could know what was happening. No outside people were there. They were like being very like, I was like, will I get to do the show after this? And Stephen was like, Yes, we did. They just wanted me to do the thing. So I did the thing and I got the offer to do the show. And then I did the show at Good Speed, which was amazing and amazing experience. And then I think like a year later, we did another workshop.

And then after that, you know, it's significantly cheaper to produce new musicals in London in the UK. So they sent it to the UK. And that's when the hope that's that recording. But the opening at Good Speed, I feel like there were a couple little short lines where certain members of our ensemble spoke about the immigrant experience. And then it went into the If We Never Meet Again sequence, which was a song, which is the one of the most gorgeous songs in the score, but got cut for Broadway. So it starts there, which really sets up Rebecca and David and Bella. David is Rebecca's son, just for those listening who don't remember all the names. And then that moment ends when they see the Statue of Liberty.

And then they're long live Columbus, long live Columbus. And then we eventually launch into Green Horns. And the theatrical conceit you're speaking of, of the two men in white suits. So we were, it sounds like they're coming to get me. I'm crazy. Sorry, the two men in white suits. But when we were at Good Speed, what that was, was a quintet of five well-to-do white Americans who were talking about the immigrants and just being disgusted while the immigrants were singing opposite them, essentially. And then when we did the last development I was a part of, it went back to being two. And I think that's what it is on the Hope Mill recording. And they do continue throughout the piece. They sing reprises of Green Horns and a lot of like, we had projections at Good Speed that were like, headlines of the day and cartoons showing the anti-Semitism and the anti-immigrant hate, and all of this stuff. So yeah, I'm not sure what, I don't have access to whatever the current version of the script is. But I assume it's one of those two things.

[39:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's an interesting conceit that I'm glad is carried throughout, because it's a really important point that can't just go away, in my opinion. I think that we need to be reminded of it throughout.

[39:53] Samantha Massell: Well, it's in many ways the central relationship of, it's like the general central relationship of the show. It's us versus them, or how people perceive it to be us versus them.

[40:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's such a good way of saying it. Yeah.

[40:04] Samantha Massell: Yeah. So it's important that that feels, and the threat of that has to feel present throughout the whole piece, in my opinion.

[40:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The us versus them sort of mentality sometimes makes me feel better about us because I'm like, oh, we're not broken. It's always been this way. And then it also makes me feel a little depressed because I'm like, oh, it's always been this way. Why can't we figure it out? So it's a little bit of both for me.

[40:29] Samantha Massell: But it does make me feel less alone. In the original, when Rebecca, our heroine, comes to New York with her son, like you mentioned, she is looking for her husband, who immigrated there before her and then stopped writing. So she thinks he might be dead. She thinks he might be in trouble. They're looking for him constantly. Now, that's one of the big thrusts for the first half of Act One. Then magically in the middle of Act One, we see Nathan. Nathan has changed his name from Nathan Hershkowitz to Nat Harris. He has essentially assimilated and tried to get as far away from his Jewish culture as possible. He's even in the Tammany Hall sort of democratic anti-immigrant movement to try and get somebody elected.

That's his new role. When he and Rebecca are finally reunited at the end of Act One, and once again, in the original piece, it has a twinge of like, oh, yay, they're back together. But also, oh, no, because he's not interested in being a Jew anymore. Then it's about her deciding, do I stay with my husband or do I go with this new union guy who is kind of opening her mind to some of the injustices that are being faced around the city at that point? That is the original show. It sounds like the stakes are even higher for her now because, once again, it doesn't revolve around a marriage and whether or not it's going to exist.

[42:16] Yeah. What it really revolves to, she basically gets off the boat and she sees her friend Bella from the boat at the line. She comes up with this crazy thing being like, that's my uncle, and it's Avram. They have this funny scene and they let them through. Which, by the way, how cool. Is Avram the Avram from Fiddler? You know what I mean?

[42:36] I actually have never thought about that. That's funny.

[42:38] It could be.

[42:40] It could be. That's how they get in and then basically she ends up staying with their family. Their family runs a small sweatshop out of the apartment where they make dresses. It's revealed the next morning when they put Rebecca to work, basically being like, if you're going to stay here for free and it's not going to be for long, you're going to work. It is revealed that Rebecca is an extraordinary seamstress. The hat has been tipped to that on the boat. Rebecca presents Bella with a gift of this gorgeous lace collar. We know that Rebecca has a gift for this. Basically, they're making these dresses for this man, Mr. Bronfman. At one point, Rebecca redesigns the dress. She's like, this isn't good.

It could be better. Bella's uncle's like, don't you dare. She's like, I dare. No, I got this kid. She and Bella redesign the dress. They sneak it in and Bronfman shows up at the house and everybody thinks he's going to fire them and they're never going to have any money again. He says, who made this dress? I want 20 more, essentially. Rebecca starts negotiating. She gathers her chutzpah and a bunch and she's like, yeah, she's negotiating with them. He takes an interest in her romantically as well. Over the course of the play, he starts bringing her for private fittings and custom dresses. She realizes that he is giving her a poultry cut of what he is making, though he has proposed. I think he proposes marriage.

I'm pretty sure he does. This is really interesting. In many ways, Bronfman, the guy who owns this sweatshop, sees Rebecca's talent. You're obviously a very beautiful woman. He's like, if I marry her, it's an interesting idea of marriage being another form of slavery, right? Because then he's guaranteed her to be part of the business. I do think he likes her. I don't think it's that evil.

[44:35] Well, that's not my recollection of being a part of it, but I do think he looks down on her and the family and wants to dress her better and wants to make her more assimilated and wants to make her more white. But he's also not interested in paying her for what she's worth.

[44:50] No, and when she finds that out in a fitting, that's what basically sets her.

[44:59] Okay, so then Saul, who became Sal, thank you, everybody, for staying with us. Sal is the Italian guy who was Terrence Mann, which, once again, going back to the original Broadway production, you had Judy Kuhn and Terrence Mann in this show and then literally became Javert and Cosette six months later. It's crazy. Maybe Rags had to fail so that Les Mis could be what it was. I don't know. The idea then is that Sal is still a union guy, trying to take down these awful conditions in the sweatshops. Do he and Rebecca still have a bit of an antagonistic, fiery relationship at the beginning, or how does she view union work?

[45:44] I don't think she knows anything about it. He tries to talk to her about it at one point, and it's a very cute scene where she can't read. So he's showing her the pamphlet, and he's teaching her son to read, and she's participating in that, and he shows her the union pamphlet. That's my memory of the scene. I don't know if that's in the current developed version, but that's the one we did at Goodspeed. He's trying to explain it to her, and she doesn't really understand. Also, at this point, when she starts making these dresses for Bronfman, even though she doesn't know how much he's skimming off the top, they are suddenly making – this is a huge win for the family. They were like, please don't stay here. We don't have room. We're literally in this shoebox. We don't need you and your son. And now they're like, you're doing great. What a celebration for what you have helped us achieve.

[46:29] Let's talk about some of the songs that come in and out of here. We did an episode on Smile a few months ago. Oh my god, deep cut. Also in the same season, and one of the criticisms of that show was that there were no songs, like there's Disneyland, but it's basically montage after montage after montage.

[46:44] Yes, absolutely. But the score is made up of montages, these extended musical scenes. Not the case with Rags. Rags has so many great tunes, like great songs, and so we need to talk about some of them. When is the first time that we hear Rebecca sing in the new show? Because it's one of the things that was deeply surprising to me about the bootleg, which I watched, is that you have this huge operatic star, and she really doesn't sing for like the first 15 minutes of the show.

[47:09] She sings right away. She sings if we never meet again, basically by herself, and then Bella joins in, and then they sing together. So that's the first thing we hear her sing.

[47:21] Yeah. Such a beautiful song, and a very gentle introduction to a story that is at times not gentle. I think that's really sweet for the audience to hear. If anybody wants, the way that I was introduced to that song was Emily Skinner and Alice Ripley's

[47:37] Samantha Massell: Duets album. They recorded that song back in the day. Anyway. I don't think I knew that. That's great. I love it. Once again, Greenhorn's a great Stephen Schwartz lyric. Then what else do we need to talk about? Brand New World. Brand New World is great. Still in there, as far as I know. Still in there. Great song. There's that great lyric that Rebecca has about looking at some lady's hat, and instead of a babushka, there's feathers and fruit instead. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. It's a fun little detail. It's funny. I think I would only be able to isolate lyrics in that, because I've sung a couple of these separately since I'm doing the show. But to do that, to isolate a lyric on that, I'd probably have to do it from the beginning.

From the beginning. Let's take it from the top. So let's do it. No, I'm kidding. One of my favorite moments in that one is, I don't know if this is in the original lyric or just in ours, but she shows David something. She's showing him, see that lady? Where did she get all those eggs? And then she goes, look at that one. No, don't. You can't see it. You'll see her legs. It's great. That's really sweet. I love that lyric. And it's so real about going to the city, right? I mean, she's from freaking Anatepka. She's never seen anything. No, they haven't seen anything. Can we also talk about Blame It on a Summer Night, which I think is one of the most gorgeous ballads of ever. Yeah, I think that's one of my all-time favorites in the show.

After the first reading we did when they did it at Goodspeed and then here on, it's been changed into a duet, which I think is really great. And it's Sal sort of coming on to her, but also in a lovely way. And I think she feels that she can't love again. And there's so much hardship taking care of her son and her business and just surviving and the dresses. And it's like, I don't have the ability or the time to do this, but wow, you're great. And that's the Sal of it all. I love that song. I think that song is just, it's a 10. It's exquisite. I love how she, and then at one point he leaves and she sings the last bit on her own and she's just like threatening the moon and the stars. Like, I love it.

I think it's great. That's stunning. And then of course, Children of the Wind. Does Children of the Wind happen in the second act or in the first act? So Children of the Wind has been retooled. It's been essentially broken up. So the version we sang at Charles's memorial service was what is now like the last big number in the show, essentially before the finale. So when Rebecca and Bella are like at night, like hanging out when they decide to do this dress spin, Rebecca won't talk about what happened to her in Europe and Bella finally gets it out of her. And that's where we hear the hiding in the wheat fields. So that part of the song that people know. And I love that she's telling Bella it because in the original, she's just kind of telling the cosmos all alone on stage.

It makes it even more devastating to hear her like revealing this to somebody maybe for the first time. The stakes are very, very high. And it's a reveal. This is, you know, we're now 30 minutes in, we don't know what's happened to this woman. And then at the end of the show, when they are leaving the apartment, her last moment in this apartment where her life in

[50:46] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[53:59] Samantha Massell: The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory. I'm not sure if it's mentioned as that, but it is inspired by that, and if it is mentioned as that, it is. I think it was mentioned literally in the original, but you don't have to in order for you to get the idea. In case we need to just review a little bit of history, the Triangle Shirt Factory was one of the key moments for the union movement and shutting down sweatshops. It was a fire that because it took place in this, you know, rags factory, there were just little bits and pieces of cloth everywhere, and like kindling, the moment that a spark happened, the entire building went up in flames, and I think 148 people were killed in the fire. Just insane. I think the other piece of, it's insane.

I mean, check my history on this, but I think what is also so tragic about it is that the women were locked in the rooms they were working in as part of their working agreement. So when the fire broke out, they had no way to get out. They had to, some jumped to their deaths, right? Because it was the only possibility to just jump out the window. I mean, terrible.

[55:49] And that's so many people could have been saved. Yeah. This also becomes a turning point for Rebecca, who has been less than enthusiastic about joining Sal's union sort of movement. She's leaning more towards assimilated life because she doesn't want to feel threatened anymore. But you want power. You want to feel some sort of power. And I think then when she sees what happens to Bella, it-

[56:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Who is one of the people who dies in this tragedy.

[56:19] Samantha Massell: Yes, it shakes her to her core. And that's what, she sees that Bronfman is cheating her. She hears about the fire. I think it's in that order. And then it's like, wow, I can't. And then she speaks out against him. Relationship wise, does she end up with Sal or is that neither here nor there?

[56:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It sort of leaves it in like a could be, maybe. They're leaving, the last scene before she sings Children of the Wind, he comes by to say goodbye. He's going to, I think he's going to Boston in the story. And she's got the shop and she's like, if you ever come visit, something like that. I don't remember the details, but they sort of will be in each other's lives somehow. But it's not, it doesn't end with some sort of like, and then she found another man and it was fine.

[56:59] Samantha Massell: Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting to.

[57:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Do you know, this is a, just a confession from me. Whenever I would listen to the original recording, which is mixed horribly, by the way, you have to crank it up so hot to even hear anything that's going on in there. God bless the 80s. But I would listen to up until Rags. So I really hadn't listened to the second act very much at all until I started researching for this. And there are some really beautiful sequences in the second act.

[57:28] Samantha Massell: Like Wanting?

[57:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wanting!

[57:31] Samantha Massell: Wanting's so great.

[57:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's so good.

[57:34] Samantha Massell: Wanting is such a beautiful song.

[57:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Does Ben still exist?

[57:38] Samantha Massell: Yes, Ben still exists. He's another character we haven't talked about. He, at least originally, was in love with Bella.

[57:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He is still in love with Bella.

[57:45] Samantha Massell: Tied to like, maybe the beginnings of Tin Pan Alley. The gramophones and all of that sort of thing. And there are some really cute songs that- Some of the original Act One songs of that are different now. But that is the general same arc. But that's a perfect example, right? Of like, you know, the criticism of the show, I guess, originally was too much, but we're still touching on these things. We still hear the beginnings of Tin Pan Alley. We still get a sense of the hierarchy of immigrants, but we're really just focused on this one person, this one time, and the people with whom she is walking through life.

[58:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, Wanting is- I love Wanting.

[58:23] Samantha Massell: I love Wanting. I love rags. I love Children of the Wind. I love Summer Night. Bread and Freedom.

[58:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My gosh, that's an epic piece, too. And then at the end of the show, there's this other musical moment that I think is so exquisite. She sings to David, look, David, see David, as they're leaving the apartment to go begin their new life and have their shop. Look, David, see David. And she goes, now it belongs to you, which they sang in-

[58:49] Samantha Massell: Brand New World.

[58:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Brand New World. Now it belongs to you. He goes, now it belongs to me. And we go, now it belongs to another. So as if they're claiming their space, and here comes another boat.

[59:08] Samantha Massell: Wow.

[59:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I always thought that was really beautiful that the two of them were starting off on their journey in such a positive way.

[59:17] Samantha Massell: Yeah.

[59:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In your program, Tom, good old Dave Thompson, wrote something that he found important when he was creating this revisal. And I wanted to share it here. He wrote, When I was doing some initial research for the show, I read this passage in one of the guide books immigrants were given at Ellis Island. And this is the quote, Hold fast. This is most necessary in America. Forget your customs and your ideals. Select a goal and pursue it with all your might. You will experience a bad time, but sooner or later you will achieve your goal. A bit of advice for you. Do not take a moment's rest. Run, do, work and keep your own good in mind. I love my country and that is both inspiring and exhausting to me.

[1:00:10] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I feel the same way.

[1:00:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because I see the effects of it, right? I see, and I'm so proud of the resilience of our people who have created a country that can even proclaim that to be how the country works, that you choose a goal and you pursue it. And even though things are crappy, you'll achieve it. And also this idea of like, do, do, do, do, do. And somehow you'll be happy. It's just like that capitalistic wheel of, like you said, here comes the next boat. And what have we done? You know, it's a fascinating little experiment that was created over here on this continent that I'm both so incredibly grateful for and at times exhausted by.

[1:00:58] Samantha Massell: Yeah, no, heard. I mean, that's beautiful. You also can see so much of that reflected in the story. And I'm sure I knew that when he wrote it. I don't remember it now. But something he always also used to say when he'd be in the rehearsal room with us, and they were with us like all the time.

[1:01:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is so cool.

[1:01:15] Samantha Massell: Which is so cool. They wrote a new song at one point there. It's now been replaced by something else. But like, I remember like before a matinee, Stephen was like, this is the new song, Edge of a Knife. And I was like, it was called something else then.

[1:01:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's right.

[1:01:25] Samantha Massell: It became Edge of a Knife. Edge of a Knife is the one that we did at the development.

[1:01:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is it on the new recording?

[1:01:30] Samantha Massell: It's on the new recording. That was written for our last workshop. And then David used to say this thing all the time where he'd be like, a lot of the show feels to me, I think he's, I think it's right. It's such a beautiful sentiment. You know, when we come to America, what do we keep? And what do we leave behind? And that is the immigrant experience.

[1:01:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That is the question.

[1:01:49] Samantha Massell: Where are we? Where are we choosing to assimilate? And where are we choosing to hang on to tradition? And that feels like Fiddler tradition to here.

[1:01:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What a great way to end this. You're absolutely right.

[1:02:02] Samantha Massell: That's so cool. I could talk to you forever.

[1:02:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, likewise. Thank you so much for doing this. Truly.

[1:02:07] Samantha Massell: Thank you so much for having me. I love rags. This was so fun. Always happy to talk about musicals.

[1:02:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I hope that this show gets done more. It's a little difficult because ragtime in its own, I can see why theaters would be like, well, if we're going to do rags, why don't we just do ragtime? But what do you think? What do we get by keeping the show alive?

[1:02:28] Samantha Massell: What a beautiful question. Well, there are two elements to this that I think are separate from the subject matter and the story of the show. I think there is a culty theater thing around a piece like this that is super unique.

[1:02:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I raised my hand on that one.

[1:02:43] Samantha Massell: The pedigree of the writers involved a flop from Strauss, Stein and Schwartz. How could it even happen, first of all? How could it even happen to this rebirth? It is such an interesting theater story to me about resilience. When they were revising this show for years, when Goodspeed reached out about doing it, apparently Stephen was like, I only want to do this. I'm remembering this, so it may be a little off. Stephen was like, I don't want to just rearrange the deck chairs. They tried so many times moving this number here and that number there. He was like, no, I want to rewrite the show. You can either give us the space to do that or we're not going to license it to you. That's what Goodspeed allowed them to do.

I think there's a culty theater thing that's really interesting about the show. People don't know it, but they know the history and the music. I think there's an interest on that. It's an interesting theater story. I also think Rags is a Jewish story, but in a similar way to Fiddler, it is everyone's story. It is just telling the Jewish perspective on the experience, but I think most immigrants will see them or descendants of immigrants will see themselves reflected in the experience of Rebecca and the people around her. I think, listen, I'm not a big believer. I don't think every single show has to have a why. I think sometimes we can just go see a show and it could be a great time, but this one has a really big why and a really powerful why, a timely why.

It is unfortunately more timely than ever. Immigration is one of the big issues of our lifetime, how we think about it, how we talk about it. I think when you humanize these experiences by seeing them on a stage, and that's hopefully what a show like Rags can do, you can change minds. You can affect how people think. You can open their hearts. The third reason is that it's a great show. This is a Class A score. It is an amazing score. It's a beautiful show. I'm all for more Rags in the world.

[1:04:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love it. I love it!

[1:04:48] As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, I'll add them to the list. Simply email amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Also, follow us on social media. We've always got great reels and stories and fun little polls and things, both Instagram and TikTok. Then, I would love, love, love to see you on Patreon! That's patreon.com slash amusicalpodcast. I have been so freaking busy, you guys, that I haven't been able to get as many episodes out on the main feed as I would like, but I still try and make Patreon a priority. I love all of you there, and I'm so grateful for our time together. Don't lose faith in me. I've got so much going on.

More than anything, though, thank you for being a part of this beautiful podcasting community. It's one of the things I really truly look forward to in my life. Oh, remember, we also have a TeePublic store. We got lots of fun merch and designs there that you can put on all sorts of buttons and blankets and shirts and things. All of those profits we receive go to Broadway Cares Equity Fights Aids. Samantha, thank you, again, so much for being here. Can you tell us how we follow you and anything you're up to?

[1:06:01] Samantha Massell: Yes, this was so fun. Thank you for having me. Thank you for reaching out. You can follow me on Instagram at smassellsings, S-M-A-S-S-E-L-L-SINGS. I made that username in college and I've never changed it.

[1:06:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Good for you.

[1:06:21] Samantha Massell: And I've got some cool things coming up, though I don't think by the time this is airing, I'll be able to talk about them. But follow along for the ride.

[1:06:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because you're also doing TV film. I didn't mention that in your bio, but you've got lots of fun TV film stuff.

[1:06:34] Samantha Massell: Yeah, I've done some good recurring, so I've got a cool one coming up. So hopefully that will be airing not long after this airs.

[1:06:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fantastic. We'll follow you to make sure that we hear about all of that. Everybody out there, thank you so much for listening. And remember, there are actually, usually I can't think of what the little tag is going to be, but now I have too many. We could say, we're all just children of the wind. We could say, enjoy the brand new world out there. We could say, penny tune. I don't know.

[1:07:07] Samantha Massell: I feel like it's definitely, we are all children of the wind.

[1:07:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go.