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[0:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Hi, I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper. And I'm Joe Iconis. On this week's episode of The Album Podcast, we're going to be talking about a song called The Saddest Girl in the World as sung by incredible Iconis & Family special guest Kerry Butler. Royalty, musical theater royalty. The song is an interesting one. It's one of my shorter songs. And it's can be kind of classified as a comedy song, comedy on the surface, or I guess it leads with comedy. And then there's some other stuff that follows. And it has an interesting origin. It was written for a 24-hour musical with Jonathan Mark Sherman many, many years ago. And Tepper and I talk about that and more on the episode. So tune in. I learned a lot on this episode. Joe, how old were you when you wrote this song?

[0:56] Joe Iconis: I was 10.

[0:57] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, exactly. Learn more about that on this episode. This song is The Saddest Girl in the World. There should be an actual name for the musical theater thing where there's the first lyric of a song and it gets like a big reaction or a big laugh and then you like there should be a literal name for that. Maybe it's called Pulling an Iconis.

[1:18] Joe Iconis: Yeah, maybe we should start it. We won't say it because we'll let people listen to this track along when they listen to this podcast. But this song is super early song. This is a very early song. This song I wrote as part of the 24-hour musicals show at Joe's Pub. And this was in 2000 and I must say five or certainly around them. And I wrote a musical with the great Jonathan Mark Sherman, who I love a lot. And wonderful writer and you also may have seen him playing Ira Weitzman in the Tick Tock Boom film. Legends, legends on legends. And so Jonathan and I. So the way 24-hour musicals works is you're paired with a whole bunch of people. It's writers and you get a cast and then you got to write this show for the cast.

And the whole thing is written and rehearsed and performed in a 24-hour time period. And so in my cast was Carrie Butler and Nellie Mackay, who I'm obsessed with. And Jesse Tyler Ferguson was in it, too. And Ashley Atkinson was in it. It was a great cast. Wow.

[2:38] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, yeah. I loved them a lot. But this was a song that I wrote for Carrie and she was playing a so the whole thing took place in a bar and everyone in the bar was really depressed. And it was called the saddest bar in the world. That was the name of the play. And Carrie's character had one leg. She'd lost her leg in an accident or something. And she was a dancer. And it was this whole thing. And she was very sad. And then everyone sort of found each other at the end. And it was very happy. And, you know, it's like the sort of thing that you can write. How long are those? Like when they are 20 minutes, 20 minutes.

[3:21] Joe Iconis: Yeah, like I wrote like three songs. What are the other songs from it? The last one was good. The Nelly one was really good. And then I wrote one that probably sucked, but I don't remember it. But the Nelly one was like a it was like a drinking song.

[3:36] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: We're going to have to uncover these.

[3:37] Joe Iconis: Yeah, we should. Yeah, we should. But I remember this was so early on. And so I was like kind of nervous because there was a lot of fancy people involved. And I was like the one of the less fancier. You know, you were like 24 years old doing this.

[3:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Like I don't even know these songs other than this one.

[3:57] Joe Iconis: Yeah. I'm gonna have to call your brother about bootlegs to these.

[4:02] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Oh my gosh. Yeah. I don't think anyone in my family came to it. Bizarrely. This is this is the last Iconis show.

[4:10] Joe Iconis: Yeah, it really is. 20 minutes.

[4:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[4:13] Joe Iconis: Yeah. But I was really nervous. And then Carrie, when she sang the song, she forgot the lyrics halfway through. And I was watching from the bar at Joe's pub. And she went, Joe, Joe. Oh, God. Oh, God. Like she called for me. And I was so like, Oh, my God, am I supposed to like scream out to her? Like, what am I supposed to do? And then she just like, she was amazing. And she went right on. But it was one of those things where like now if that if that happened, I would be like, you know, I'd be like, okay, the lyric is like, like, it wouldn't even cross my mind at the time. Yeah, feeling like nervous type up, you know. But yeah, so at any rate, so that's where the song came from. And I've always, I've always liked, I've always liked the song.

I love, I love the first line of the song. But it's always like, it's always kind of, it's always kind of been this thing where like, I, you know, I never want anyone to feel, I never want to make anyone feel, feel bad with my writing, if I can help it. I mean, sometimes I do. But and so you know, the fact that this character has had, you know, lost a leg is, I think, a part of this character. And I want to be able to write characters who have lost legs or, you know, arms or whatever. But I never, I never want people to think that that's the reason why it's funny. Because I don't think that's actually the reason why it's funny. You know, it's taking, even though that first line, you know, like, the saddest thing about having one leg is that isn't the saddest thing about me.

It's, it is, it is taking into account that this is this person's situation. And it is taking into account how this person is perceived by the outside world. But it's saying, like, that's not even the thing. That's not even why I'm here. You know what I mean? And so and I think that I do think that that's funny, but it treads like a really fine line. And so the song always, like, it always is, is tricky for me. And I actually thought about not including it on the album, you know, for that very reason. But Carrie's performance of it is so genuine and so honest. And, and so, and so, like, both hilarious and, and just, just, like, kind, that that's the thing that I feel like, earns it earns it a place.

[6:38] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, that makes it clear that this isn't a joke song. You know, this isn't like, oh, how funny that, you know, this person has one leg. It's, it's, it's something else.

[6:49] Joe Iconis: Yeah. This is a song that I feel like, well, talk us through who else has performed it over the years other than Carrie.

[6:53] Joe Iconis: It's been performed by Liz Lark Brown, the great Liz Lark Brown, and it's been performed by Lauren Marcus, the great Lauren Marcus. I also remember seeing an edition of both of them singing it. When John Simpkins, our frequent collaborator, was at NYU, he did a senior showcase that was like all your songs, you know, it was all the seniors doing your song showcase. And, gosh, I wish I, whoever sang this did such a terrific job. And I shouldn't have brought it up because I can't remember who it was. But I do remember seeing it a couple of other times in the late 2000s that like it would pop up, the sheet music was out or this was something that somehow people got their hands on it a little bit.

The sheet music is out. It's one of those songs also that people just like, people like to do of mine. I feel like every time I do a masterclass, somebody sings the song. And I think that's for, that's for a few reasons. I think one of the reasons is that it's, it's really short in a way that a lot of my songs aren't. And it's really easily cuttable. And it's really surprising. I mean, I think that's, it's part of that first line thing we were talking about. You can get a reaction if you're doing something like a showcase or an audition where you need a quick like, oh my God, they're paying attention to me now. It's like a great attention getter song.

[8:03] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It is.

[8:04] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And, you know, the other thing too is that I, it's like I, the idea of that character, you know, being differently abled, it's like, I, I feel like so many times when we see characters like that in things, there has to be this like, air of like nobility around them. Like, it's like, anytime we see, you know, a character, whether it's a character or the performer, you know, who are, who are, who are, you know, differently abled in some way. I, it feels like it's, it's so often like this thing of like, they have to, you know, be like saviors or something or angels or something. And, and I just have always felt like, but like, they're like, why, you know, it's like, why can't they be funny? Why can't they have like their own shit? Why can't they, you know, like have jokes? Why can't we all just like look at each other as like the same? I don't know, which maybe is like, it's either like very Pollyanna or very insensitive, but that's what it is.

[9:06] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[9:07] Joe Iconis: And this song, I love the title of because it, what am I trying to say? I feel like, I don't know. It's a surprising title maybe based on what the song is.

[9:17] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah.

[9:18] Joe Iconis: And I think it's one of those things that it was, you know, it was sort of titled that partly because that's what the name of our like little, our little show was. And so it just sort of made, made sense. But it's also, it's like, I do think it's about like perception, you know, and I imagine the visual of, of this woman, especially sort of taken out of the context of that show of her, you know, like sitting alone at a bar. And it's like, I do think that she like comes to this bar a lot. She's like, you know, ultimate sort of bar fly. And it's sort of like, it's not something she's saying about herself. It's something that someone else is putting on her. You know, it's something that someone else is, is, is, you know, whispering from the other end of the bar. Like, you know, that's the saddest girl in the world. Cause you know, she's, she's not, she's not great, but she's doing okay.

[10:07] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Have we ever done this song in concert where whoever was singing it was placed in the audience and just swiveled on their barstool and then had a spotlight hit them? Cause that feels like we would have done it as you're describing this.

[10:14] Joe Iconis: Yeah. I've never done that. That should happen.

[10:17] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. I mean, songs about bars.

[10:19] Joe Iconis: Yeah. But we do so many audience plans. This just feels like the ultimate, like it makes sense. That would be so funny. Stay tuned. Totally. Carrie Butler, man. Carrie Butler is so, she's just magical. You know, I, I don't even know what else to say. That was really wild getting to work with her on the song. And then, you know, in subsequent years, she's just like, as sort of, you know, luminous as you want her to be. And she has, you know, she has the Disney princess thing without being totally fucking annoying. Like so many people like that are, she's just not, she's a great actor. She's a great performer. She can do so many different types of things. And she, you know, like, like a few people on the album, she has this like youthfulness to her that is so compelling because she's not a child and she doesn't conduct herself like that, but she's able to, to play these characters.

And the same way that Annie Golden has it, you know, it's like, it's this, and Harrison Chadd, like, it's like this thing where it's like these adult people who just have this undeniable youthfulness. And I think it's so exciting when they play people with, you know, actual human adults problems and they're not playing like sort of cartoon versions of, of youngsters or, you know, whatever. But yeah, she's just so good.

[11:36] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: She also, I think this is maybe sort of the Disney princess thing you're talking about, but she has this quality where she's so flawless vocally that you expect her performance and her acting to be, I don't know, less human than they are, but she manages to always feel like a real person while like being vocally just you're like, no one's ever been worried about Carrie Butler hitting a note in their lives or like hitting a note perfectly. Like it's, she's just got some magical dust.

[12:01] Joe Iconis: Yeah. That's, I think that's so perceptive. It's like, yeah, the way she sounds it, that sort of sound and it's, and it's, it's so pristine and it's just like, it's amazing. And it actually, it can do so many things, you know, it's like, she's such a great, like rock singer and like, she's, she's amazing. But it, that sort of pristine sound is usually associated with a performer. Who's a little bit like perfect and perfect in a way where it's like, they're not going to make a choice. That's huge. They're not going to be too funny. They're not going to be, they're never going to be ugly. Like it's like, and Carrie is just not that like, she's, you know, like a lunatic when she performs and she does all sorts of stuff and, and, you know, she does comedy and drama and, and yeah, does it all. So yeah, I'm, I'm so beyond honored that I got to work with her and yeah, I want to do like a show proper with her.

[12:48] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. It's talking about actors like her. I'm like, it gives me hope that like characters written for women who are like over the age of 40 will be interestingly, like written more interestingly on the talents of people like Carrie Butler. Cause it's like, I just, I want to see her play, you know, I want to see her doing a musical and play all of the facets that she can play.

[13:04] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Maybe I need to write the, um, the Penny Pendleton sequel. Like that's what it's about.

[13:09] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: That'd be great.

[13:10] Joe Iconis: That's what Hairspray 2 is.

[13:12] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Penny goes off into the world. Like what happens? I don't know. I mean, it's like truly anything. It's also just like Carrie Butler that like, oh, she did originate the song of yours in the 24-hour musicals almost 20 years ago. And yet it's like, no time has passed at all.

[13:35] Joe Iconis: Oh yeah. Better with age.

[13:36] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Well, let's, um, everyone mark your calendars, Broadway, 2024, A Penny for Your Thoughts starring Carrie Butler.

[13:43] Joe Iconis: A Penny for Your Thoughts. What a good title.

[13:48] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I was picturing Penny exclamation point, but yours is better.

[13:56] Joe Iconis: It's also good. No workshop.

[13:57] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Hey, thanks so much for listening or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor and go to wherever you just listen to or watch this thing and subscribe or like, or give us a great rating or review, and then head to bpn.fm slash album to find out even more information about this podcast, more ways to watch more ways to listen and check out my album album. Thanks so much for hanging out. Album podcast is executive produced by Liz Armstrong, produced by Dori Berenstain, Alan Seals, Kim Garris, and the rest of the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Be sure to visit bpn.fm slash album for both audio and video versions of this podcast, and to listen to album.