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[0:00] Martín Acuña: Hi everyone, I am Martín Acuña and you are listening to Backstage Talk.

[0:10] Martín Acuña: Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Backstage Talk. Today's guest is Sean Hayden. He is an actor based in New York City and is the creator of Stage Combat, a mental health story, an immersive podcast about his mental health journey within the entertainment industry. As an advocate and a lawyer, Sean created this podcast to help artists emerge from silence and speak up about their experiences in the theater industry. Sean, hello, welcome.

[0:42] Sean Hayden: Martín, it is so great. I've been a fan of your podcast for a while. We met a year ago, I remember, with Dr. Elisa Hurwitz, one of the clinical psychologists we featured on the podcast. It's amazing to be together mic-to-mic with you right now. And it was really randomly when we met with Elisa, which we've also had here on the podcast, because we had lunch that day, I believe, and we saw a show. I remember clearly we saw Here Lies Love. Elisa and I went to Here Lies Love. And after that, he was like, oh, I'm going to have dinner with a friend. And it was you. And I walked the two of you to the restaurant before I went home that night. And it was, yes, it was amazing. I've been also following your podcast and what you do. So it's great to have you here.

[1:35] Martín Acuña: Thank you. I want to start this conversation with the very, very, very beginning. So how did you immerse yourself in the entertainment industry?

[1:47] Sean Hayden: As an actor, as opposed to podcasting, right? Well, you know, I think like a lot of actors, a lot of actors would just say, I just never wanted, there was nothing else I wanted to do other than practicing law. So we'll get that out of the way. I'm also a practicing lawyer. So I wanted to do two things. But as a child, I always remember just wanting to be an actor, wanting to be in the school play, wanting to be a part of that thing. So it was just innate. And it was just innate. And I think that's what you hear from a lot of performers, you know? And so from there, it was just, you know, trying to find a way to be a part of that community to express my art and, you know, facing a lot of no's like most people can relate to, you know, the industry is always telling you no, for various reasons.

Me being a lawyer at the same time, you know, people would say you can't do both. Or, you know, even the story that I told in this podcast was, you know, an employer telling me no. And usually when I hear no, it makes me more determined than ever to make something happen and to ask, well, why not? Yes. Oh, yeah. That's sort of been my story. Absolutely. I mean, all of us have faced a no at some point. And I am on that same truck that every no is just more fuel until you get a yes. And until like you have that breakthrough in your career, in your life, in a show, in like anything that you may be facing in life. Yeah. And I always ask if there is a no, what's behind the no? You know? Yeah. Is it that, you know, I need to train better?

Is it that there's just too much competition and I need to stand out? You know, is it in terms of like doing this podcast and the issues we're addressing that people don't want change? You know, and how do we go around them? How do we, you know, make change happen? So I always look at the no and try to ask myself what's behind it. And then when I come to some sort of, you know, conclusion about that, then I go around it.

[4:07] Sean Hayden: Yeah, absolutely. So why did you choose the path down musical theater? It was just always what I loved to do. You know, today I would say that I'm more in love with non-musical theater, you know, as an actor. But it was just always what I'd love to do. I mean, the first musical I ever saw, probably like a lot of people, was a production of Annie, of all things, right? And, you know, when you're young, I mean, that's just magical, right? It's just, you know, magical and that wonderful Charles Strauss score, which is still one of the, you know, best musical theater scores, you know, and I just wanted to be a part of that. I love that. So how would you summarize your journey in this industry?

[5:00] Sean Hayden: Well, my journey in this industry, you know, I came to New York late, you know, I got my equity card in Dallas, Texas, working, you know, doing Shakespeare, but also doing musical theater. And, you know, I came to New York pretty naively, you know, just thinking, you know, I'll go to an open call and I'll get a Broadway show, you know, and what I found was I needed to really keep training. I really needed to keep studying. And, you know, fortunately, I booked a couple of Broadway tours and I would, you know, some prominent regional productions. But, you know, I think where I really found my footing as an artist in this city is when I found my acting studio. So I've trained over 10 years, probably, Martín, at the Scott Freeman studio.

And that's where I really found the community of just sitting in a room with 12 actors and admiring their craft. So it's away from all of the chaos and the muck of auditions and all that that goes on. And I still have that. I found that again, even after, you know, the story I told in the podcast of Stage Combat. I still find that joy of just sitting in a room and watching actors perform and then getting up in front of them and, you know, seeing what I can do with a 20-minute scene, you know, for that week.

[6:17] Martín Acuña: I absolutely love that. Let's dive into your podcast, Stage Combat, A Mental Health Story.

[6:24] Sean Hayden: Well, we're really actually now we're Stage Combat, the podcast. So you are correct. Yeah, we started as Stage Combat, A Mental Health Story for the first two seasons when it was my personal mental health story. But now we're rebranded for this season three because it is now other people's stories. And now we're Stage Combat, the podcast.

[6:42] Martín Acuña: Amazing. So how did this idea come to be? Because you've been pretty vocal. You've been an advocate of mental health in this industry. How did this idea come to be a podcast of your story and now someone else's story?

[6:49] Sean Hayden: Well, the idea for the podcast kind of happened in this, you know, from a weird place. And we actually dramatized this in the second season. You know, I had just the story of the first two seasons is what happens when I was working at this very prominent theater in a lead production. And I suffered my own mental health crisis while in that show. And it really put me on a three and a half year mental health journey. I mean, I was in really, really bad shape. And so as you can imagine, part of that, if you're seeking professional help with a mental health crisis is your therapist or your psychiatrist. And so you work through the story, you work through the story of your life, of what happened and what caused you to have this crisis.

In my case, it was developing a panic disorder on stage and collapsing during a live performance, which is something a lot of performers have experienced in terms of panic. And so, you know, out of that, my husband, Ian, who a lot of people know from the podcast, he was having breakfast with a friend who works in media. And he told him, you know, the short story version, the short version of what happened to me. And the guy said, that sounds like a podcast. And I laughed, he called me and I said, who would want to listen to this? And then the more I thought about it, I thought, well, why not? And I thought, well, if I could make it more than about me, you know, so if I could tell the story, what happened to me in serialized nonfiction, so we dramatize it.

But I'm telling my story in the first person, but we bring in voice actors. And so I could be creative, I could bring in production and sound effects, and you hear the horn honking. But then if I could bring in, and this is where our friend, Elisa Hurwitz really came in, if I could bring in mental health professionals to kind of have a talk back, like we do at some shows or the halftime show at a football game and talk about what you just heard in the story. So that, you know, Elisa says out of the, there's a saying something like out of the singular comes the universal. So people could hear something in my story and say, you know what, I have experienced that. I've experienced being afraid.

Yeah, I've experienced being afraid to say I don't feel safe on stage or that I'm afraid to tell someone I have, you know, my mental health is damaged right now, or I have a panic attack, you know. And so that's how that the first two seasons happened. Then out of that, Martín, listeners wrote in. So it was just supposed to be the first two seasons, and then hopefully spark a conversation. But listeners wrote in and told me their stories. And so I collected them all in a notebook, like old school, I printed them up, put them in tabs. So like, here's about stories about stage managers, here's stories about producers, here's stories about fight safety. And I thought, well, we just have to find a way to have a third season.

So the third season stage combat, the podcast is me as the narrator, who's been through something with the listeners, telling the stories of these other listeners, but it's still in that sort of immersive, produced stage combat, a mental health story style that our original listeners have appreciated.

[10:15] Martín Acuña: But that is amazing, because I think that the conversation for, I dare say, the past decade, about the importance of mental health, and good mental health in our industry and any other industry has really come to, like, has been really important. We've seen cases of rock stars talking about their mental health. We've seen athletes, like, I always, and now that we're seeing the Olympics in Paris.

[10:41] Sean Hayden: Yes, Simone Biles.

[10:49] Martín Acuña: Exactly. I admire Simone Biles, not only because she is an amazing athlete, but also because she was one of the first that had the courage to step up and talk openly about their mental health journey. And in this industry, every single day, we have more and more artists speaking up.

[11:11] Sean Hayden: Yeah. And you're hitting it right on the head. And what's interesting is, it's easier for us to go to and think about that conversation as happening more openly in industries that aren't the theater. So we always hear about it in sports, right? What does every person tell you who does eight shows a week on Broadway? You have to be an athlete to be a performer. We're athletes. So there's a company doctor for physically sick, but there's no mental health component. Why is that? It makes no sense when we're actually using our emotions as part of our job. It's our tools. It's our toolkit. And so I think you're right. We are hearing some people come forward in the theater industry, but it's not nearly enough.

We're just breaking the surface. And what my hope is, because this third season, it's not just me anymore. It's not Sean Hayden at this Connecticut theater. It's Broadway people. It's people from all over the country that it's really going to elevate this conversation that people have to start taking notice and say, Hey, everyone, we're way behind what sports does. We're behind what corporate America does. That's really not cool. It's like, we're the one industry where emotions are part of the toolkit. Absolutely.

[12:35] Sean Hayden: Absolutely. So I know this is a very huge question that may involve many more actors in, and not actors as performers, but actors as individuals in this conversation. But how can we make the workplace a better environment for everyone? For people on stage, off stage, the crew, the artistic team, everyone?

[13:03] Sean Hayden: Well, look, so much of it is that what the harmful practices that happen in the industry are kept secret. In our first two episodes of the new season, we had two actors talk about the trauma they suffered backstage at Wicked and Jersey Boys. And our listeners were horrified because everyone loves Wicked. It is in the hearts of so many people. And the message of that show means so much to so many people. And so we need more stories like that to come out. So people say, um, no, that's not cool. And we had so many people now who are in Wicked, who were in Jersey Boys, who are come out and say, I'm so glad that it was Brett Shuford and Brad Bass in that first episode. I'm so thankful Brett and Brad were brave enough to come out and talk about this because this happened to me too.

This happened to my friend. We all know these problems exist. So, you know, that's the first thing is the visibility and awareness. And I hope this podcast will start to do that, particularly in this new season. The other part of it is we need mental health support in our productions, right? We need that mental health professional component that I was talking about. So that's something we've been advocating in our, as a podcast since day one, they're called mental health coordinators. And it's part of the production team where there's someone you can go to. If you are in crisis, maybe you're just having trouble. You're doing Next to Normal and you don't know how to safely get in and out of that role.

I've done that show. It's brutal, you know, or, you know, trigger warning here. What if you are an actor who's having suicidal ideations? You know, we just told the Jeff Loeffelholz story and, and his tragic death in 2018, when he was in Chicago, the musical, and we brought up in that conversation, we don't know for sure if it would have changed things, but having that mental health professional, the team, it's another avenue. And when you think about what's at stake, because our community is susceptible to depression, anxiety, suicidal ideations, we are vulnerable and Broadway in our theaters, they're not doing anything right now to provide that extra level of support. So those are, look, I could talk about this for hours about all the things that we need to do, but Martine, those are the first two things we need to do is to elevate this conversation. And then how do we get the mental health support into our productions? That's where I would start.

[15:50] Sean Hayden: Yeah. And now, now that you mentioned that our community is so susceptible to mental health declines or issues. Yeah. I believe the stats are Bridget McCarthy is in episode three and she said 60% of performers have depression. Correct me if I'm wrong in the stats. One in two musical theater performers have anxiety disorders. Look, we just know in our own community, whether it's ourselves or people around us, this is not a big mystery. We know this and we know that we don't need a statistician to tell us that we're more susceptible, but it is true.

[16:33] Sean Hayden: And a question that just came up to mind is as artists, usually our art heals while we create it in the process, in the creative process. And since as performers or in these shows, it's about a repetition. Yeah. Art can heal us while we do it, while we recreate it and while we create it. But since it's our job, it can transform into the reason why we are having this negative mental health situation. So how would you advise managing that when your quote unquote, when your art turns against you?

[17:16] Sean Hayden: Well, look, I think the first step is, is, is invest in a therapist. Make sure that you have on your phone, even if you aren't using that therapist right away, you've got to have someone that you can call when you're in crisis because you're not going to be able to necessarily rely on someone with your employer or the creative team to help you out. So is this idea that we have to invest? Look, how much do we spend on, um, dance lessons, vocal coaching, acting classes, right? So, and I know that it is a challenge for some people if you're not on the equity insurance, you know, but you know, the entertainment fund is really good about helping find solutions for people who, you know, um, are challenged in terms of being able to pay for mental health care, but that maintenance aspect is really important.

You know, if I perhaps had had some sort of maintenance in place when I collapsed at the Connecticut theater, you know, cause I didn't, it's happened in the blue. I never dreamed something like that would happen to me. So I think that's the really important thing is to, um, just consider it part of the investment because look, our body and our emotions, that is, those are our tools, right? It's what we walk into work with, right? So if you're not investing to just like you would invest going to the gym, we, you know, most actors, we do that because our body, our instrument is our body. So I think we have to think in terms of the mental health component is just as important as we go to the doctor for our annual physical for preventative care.

[19:04] Sean Hayden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Sean, one of my last questions for you is this transformation on your pod from being your story into someone else's story. Can you give us a sneak peek on who else will you have on season three?

[19:14] Sean Hayden: Oh, absolutely. Um, you know, we've already told the story of an episodes one and two about trauma on Broadway with toxic stage managers. There's a lot of amazing stage managers, but we were getting a lot of stories about how, you know, a stage manager who was engaging in harmful practices physically, physically made these people sick and made them leave the industry. That's how bad it is. You know, it's just something wrong that a harmful practice goes unchecked and it quashes someone's art. It quashes someone's desire to make art and they just leave the business. That breaks my heart. It should break everyone's heart. You know, um, we did a compassionate that's out now investigation about the Jeff Loeffelholz story.

And we really wanted people to understand what he was going through in his final week. We wanted to have also trigger warning here. We wanted to have an honest conversation about the public health crisis that is suicide. We do the public a disservice when we don't talk about it. I think people will find that conversation really interesting.

[20:28] Sean Hayden: Um, we're talking about fight safety issues. So my original story, we called it stage combat because it came out of these actual stage combat sequences at the Connecticut theater where I didn't feel safe. Now stage combat is a much broader metaphor. It's about fighting back on our, in our workplaces, but we're low. Um, we're talking to some actors, um, who did not feel safe in those sequences and, and how they dealt with them. Um, we are talking about the problems with drama programs. So we get a lot of messages about people who still feel trauma 20, 30 years later from how their professors treated them in drama school. And I think a lot of drama programs, theater programs are realizing they need to change.

Yes. But, um, yeah, so that's a really important episode for our listeners. We're looking at intimacy issues. You know, you know, we now have a lot of productions have intimacy directors and intimacy coordinators. You know, I was a romantic lead for 25 years, never had one. You know, it was always direct to go and go make out with her. What, you know, you say that now and it's bonkers, you know? Um, and then we also just have some episodes where, you know, we're looking at from a mental health standpoint, we have a mindfulness episode. We're looking at a couple of people who are just out of conservatory and what it's like at that age, what are the challenges they're looking at? How are they viewing the industry?

So my hope is that each episode it's provocative and it makes you think about these issues and, and the industry in a different way, but at the heart of it, it's storytelling. It's people just like you and me, you know, some people are on Broadway, some people are not, but we're all artists and it's people telling their stories. You know, Martin, we say, claim your story is our catchphrase and it's people who are stepping out and claiming their story.

[22:22] Sean Hayden: Yeah. And I love that. Sean, thank you so much for sharing your story for sharing these artists stories. My last question for you is which are your top five favorite musical theater shows?

[22:29] Sean Hayden: My top five. Okay. Well, I said Next to Normal, but it is one of my favorite musical theater shows. I think it's brilliantly done. And I played the dad in that once in original production. So I love that show. I love The Secret Garden, right? It's just beautiful. Um, the one Andrew Lloyd Webber show I love, and I am excited about is Sunset Boulevard. So I love that show. Um, was this limited to musical theater or can I go beyond?

[23:07] Sean Hayden: Go beyond. Yeah. I love Tony Kushner. So, you know, I think Angels in America is a masterpiece, right? Um, and I got to play Joe Pitt in a regional production of that. And my other favorite show also one that I did is, um, John Patrick Shanley's Outside Mullingar, which is about this crazy Irish family. Um, uh, and this kind of awkward adult son who, uh, is very stubborn and, and can't see his love for the neighbor across the yard. So those would be my top five.

[23:40] Sean Hayden: I love that. Are you excited about Sunset Boulevard? How are you feeling?

[23:45] Sean Hayden: I am. I am. I mean, I've never seen it tickets, right? I know. Hopefully, um, I'm really excited. I've heard very, very, very amazing things about this production and I'm just like, hopefully between that and Gypsy with Audra, I will be taking away. It's a major diva fall between Nicole and Sunset Boulevard and Audra and Gypsy. Isn't it?

[24:07] Sean Hayden: Yeah, it is.

[24:14] Sean Hayden: Sean, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for being here. Um, and we wish you nothing less than success with your show.

[24:19] Sean Hayden: Thank you so much. Thank you. And Martine, thank you for being part of this conversation. You know, we just need, look, we have so many great theater podcasts and theater writers, and we just need more, more theater writers and theater podcasters to just bring this into their conversation. And in addition to, you know, interviewing credible divas and stars, you know, and the more that we all do that, the more we're going to make the workplace a safer place for everyone.

[24:47] Martine Acuña: I agree. Thank you so much, Sean.

[24:53] Sean Hayden: Thank you, Martine.

[24:56] Sean Hayden: Thanks everyone for listening to this new episode of Backstage Talk. Remember to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Backstage Talk Podcast.