This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Nick Salmon: The first show I ever actually produced was an old play called The Ghost Train by Arnold Ridley, who subsequently was better known as one of the actors in the television series over here called Dad's Army.

[0:17] Nick Salmon: Um, and I have to tell you, it lost every single penny and more. And it was, and I had a wonder. Despite that, it was quite an enjoyable experience. And so, you know, well, you know what the drug's like, Hal I carried on taking it, and then went on to do various other shows over the years.

[0:40] Hal Luftig: Hi everyone, this is Hal Luftig with my Broadway Podcast Network show, Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business about the business of Broadway.

[0:59] Hal Luftig: Enjoy the Broadway Biz.

[1:02] Hal Luftig: You'll be a Broadway wiz.

[1:05] Hal Luftig: You'll learn to raise cash to open your smash, you'll be all the rage from the patron stage.

[1:11] Hal Luftig: In no time you'll know the business of show, the greatest job there is.

[1:16] Hal Luftig: So join our squad as we are one day Broadway.

[1:25] Hal Luftig: Let's get busy with the Broadway Biz.

[1:33] Hal Luftig: My guest today is Nick Salmon, director of Playful Productions in London's West End.

[1:39] Hal Luftig: As a producer in the West End and on tour, Nick has over 80 credits to his name.

[1:45] Hal Luftig: I most recently worked with him on the West End production of Kinky Boots.

[1:50] Hal Luftig: Nick has a huge wealth of knowledge on producing and theater managing.

[1:54] Hal Luftig: I'm so grateful he's taken the time today to share what he knows with us on this episode of Broadway Biz.

[2:01] Hal Luftig: Hey Nick, how are you?

[2:03] Nick Salmon: I'm very well, Hal. Thank you.

[2:05] Nick Salmon: It's lovely, lovely to hear you.

[2:08] Hal Luftig: Oh, it's always lovely to talk to you.

[2:10] Hal Luftig: I can't wait until the day I can actually see you.

[2:13] Hal Luftig: One of my highlights of any year is getting over, getting on a plane and getting over to the UK and seeing shows, seeing you, having dinner with you.

[2:23] Hal Luftig: I should tell my listeners, if they don't already know, when you have any meal with the British, it usually involves at least one, if not two bottles of wine.

[2:33] Hal Luftig: There have been many times, as Nick will attest, that I have stumbled literally back to my hotel.

[2:40] Hal Luftig: So it is one of the treats I look forward to because I don't get to do that here.

[2:46] Hal Luftig: I still, in case listeners don't know, Nick and I worked together very closely for the past many years, bringing Kinky Boots over to the Adelphi Theater.

[2:58] Hal Luftig: And Nick was so instrumental in not only making sure it got a home and thrived on the West End, but also the UK tour, which is more complicated over there than touring shows over here.

[3:15] Hal Luftig: So whenever you need anything on the UK side, Nick Salmon is your man.

[3:22] Hal Luftig: Nick also owns and runs a company called Playful Productions.

[3:27] Hal Luftig: And I was wondering, Nick, if you could tell our listeners a little bit about Playful.

[3:32] Nick Salmon: Yeah. We started Playful 10 years ago.

[3:37] Nick Salmon: We're just 10.

[3:38] Nick Salmon: And I started it with two partners, Matthew Biam Shaw and Nia Janis, both of whom I'd worked with for quite a while before at a company called Act Productions.

[3:50] Nick Salmon: So we left Act and we set up Playful, and it's been great fun and we've had a wonderful time.

[3:57] Nick Salmon: Playful was set up to produce plays and musicals in the West End and in the regions and to then exploit them further where possible.

[4:08] Nick Salmon: And it was also set up not only to produce but to general manage.

[4:13] Nick Salmon: So anything we produce or co-produce, we would general manage ourselves.

[4:19] Nick Salmon: And then we also have the great fun of managing shows for other people, and indeed Kinky Boots was one of those shows recently, which we did with Hal, and we managed it for him and his partners, and we took a little producing position in it.

[4:37] Nick Salmon: But it was a great, great fun show, and we had a good time.

[4:41] Nick Salmon: And we enjoy doing the managing and the co-producing.

[4:47] Nick Salmon: We enjoy doing the producing.

[4:49] Nick Salmon: We still produce in London quite a lot of plays as a company.

[4:54] Nick Salmon: We've the three of us have got a background, separate backgrounds in plays, and you can still, if you're lucky and have a hit, make money on plays in London.

[5:04] Nick Salmon: So we do quite a few plays, and we love doing the big musicals and the small musicals, so we do a bit of everything really.

[5:12] Hal Luftig: How do you divide up the responsibilities between you, Matthew and Nia?

[5:17] Nick Salmon: Well, it sort of happens production by production, but Nia and I basically do the general management side of the productions.

[5:26] Nick Salmon: Matt basically does the producing side of the productions.

[5:30] Nick Salmon: But when he's producing, we both get involved.

[5:36] Nick Salmon: And when we're general managing, he always knows what's going on, although he doesn't take an active interest in that.

[5:42] Nick Salmon: But I mean, there are some productions where I get very involved with Matt on the producing, or Nia gets very involved with Matt on the producing, even if Matt is leading it.

[5:53] Nick Salmon: And there are some productions where you know maybe Matt isn't so involved, but one of us is producing them.

[5:59] Nick Salmon: So it's a sort of it depends who's got the enthusiasm for the show at the time.

[6:05] Nick Salmon: Because you know, as you know better than I how if you're going to produce a show, you have to have bags and bags of enthusiasm for it, the subject, the cast, the stars, etc.

[6:15] Nick Salmon: And whichever of us has the real enthusiasm for the show tends to be the one that drives it.

[6:24] Hal Luftig: Do you find or notice there are differences in how you look at things or how you might re-evaluate things wearing several different hats?

[6:33] Nick Salmon: I think the main difference is in who's making the decisions, because if we're not producing, we're not making the decisions.

[6:41] Nick Salmon: We're working for the producer who is making the decisions and we're managing.

[6:45] Nick Salmon: So we will lay out all the options to the producer on any given item and leave, and it's the producer that finally makes the decision.

[6:55] Nick Salmon: Frequently with our advice, and you know, when we get on well with producers, there's a working relationship that just all clicks in and it goes very smoothly.

[7:07] Nick Salmon: But ultimately, you know, it's the producer that makes the final decisions, carries the risk, raises the money, etc.

[7:16] Nick Salmon: And we will spend a lot of time on some shows liaising between various co-producers, because you know, you have to involve everyone that is entitled to be involved.

[7:28] Nick Salmon: So it's a sort of an art of looking after people and giving them advice, and particularly if a producer isn't based in London, it's a matter of keeping them wherever they are, New York or wherever, keeping them up to speed with the local circumstances and what needs to be done urgently quickly or next week or next year or whatever.

[7:52] Hal Luftig: And I know you did that, you know, a lot for me on Kinky.

[7:57] Hal Luftig: So I do know that that is a big benefit.

[8:00] Hal Luftig: But you know, since this show, Broadway Biz, is really about how, well, Broadway, but also the West End marries its artistic side with its financial side.

[8:14] Hal Luftig: What happens or how do you handle when a producer, let's just say such as myself, who's on the other side of the pond, the director wants something, or the producer thinks he wants something, and financially it just doesn't make sense or isn't feasible, things like that.

[8:41] Nick Salmon: We would normally take a view.

[8:44] Nick Salmon: Um, we would hopefully know the producer well enough to know what the producer might do, and we would get on and do what we think he might do, but always leave the door open to adjust whatever we're doing in case we haven't got it quite right or the right nuance.

[9:01] Nick Salmon: But we wouldn't normally spend any extra money or make any decision to spend big money without the producer's firm agreement.

[9:11] Nick Salmon: If there was an emergency and something had to be done, then we take responsibility, we'd do it, and we'd tell the producer afterwards what we'd had to do, why, and why there was no chance to get in touch with him and check first.

[9:24] Hal Luftig: Well, you know, I always appreciated that because every decision you guys did make for us turned out to be the right one.

[9:31] Hal Luftig: So I just wanted to know what the process was because the outcome was always great.

[9:37] Hal Luftig: Nick, I want to take a step back in time for a moment because I've known you for a long time, but I don't really know how you got started in this business.

[9:47] Hal Luftig: So I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about what was your route into producing, and if you in fact remember the very first show you produced.

[9:59] Nick Salmon: I sort of got an interest in the theater when I was at school.

[10:02] Nick Salmon: I was very lucky.

[10:03] Nick Salmon: I went to a school that actually had a small theatre, and then I went to another school that had a slightly larger theater.

[10:10] Nick Salmon: And I always enjoyed the sort of the backstage side of it.

[10:14] Nick Salmon: And then when I went to Cambridge, I spent a lot of time with the sort of the local student societies there, including the Footlights and the Marlowe and the ADC and all the other ones.

[10:27] Nick Salmon: And when I left Cambridge, I actually wasn't sure whether I could make a living in the theatre.

[10:32] Nick Salmon: So I actually went into the film industry, which seemed even more chancy than the theatre, and I worked for a guy called Brown Forbes for many years.

[10:41] Nick Salmon: And then that sort of stopped for various reasons.

[10:44] Nick Salmon: Mainly I think I couldn't get a union card and I needed a union card.

[10:48] Nick Salmon: So I sort of became an agent next and looked after actors and actresses.

[10:53] Nick Salmon: And then I met somebody one night at a party.

[10:56] Nick Salmon: And he was looking for somebody to run his theatre company, theatre production company in London.

[11:03] Nick Salmon: And he said, Did I want to do it?

[11:04] Nick Salmon: So I said yes, and sort of jumped in with very, very little experience and really learnt most of it on the job.

[11:11] Nick Salmon: The first show I ever actually produced was an old play called The Ghost Train by Arnold Ridley, who subsequently was better known as one of the actors in a television series over here called Dad's Army.

[11:29] Nick Salmon: Um, and I have to tell you, it lost every single penny and more.

[11:34] Nick Salmon: And it was, and I had a wonder despite that, it was quite an enjoyable experience.

[11:39] Nick Salmon: And so, you know, well, you know what the drug's like, Hal I carried on taking it, and then went on to do various other shows over the years.

[11:48] Hal Luftig: That’s interesting.

[11:49] Hal Luftig: Yeah, I think everybody who produces has to have that one thing, and it usually helps when it's early on in his career, that one show that just you know sort of tanks.

[12:02] Hal Luftig: It's almost like you have to get it out of the way first, and then you learn from that.

[12:06] Hal Luftig: Did you learn anything from that show that so early in your career didn't work?

[12:14] Nick Salmon: Yeah, I learned a lot from it.

[12:16] Nick Salmon: I think I learned not to be quite as trusting was probably the most important lesson.

[12:21] Nick Salmon: But also, you know, I do know the extraordinary thing is how I find that even though I've been in theatre and producing for many, many years, I'm still learning today.

[12:32] Nick Salmon: You know, there's always something to learn.

[12:34] Nick Salmon: And that's one of the things that I find really challenging about it.

[12:37] Nick Salmon: I have an extremely low boredom threshold.

[12:40] Nick Salmon: So I love going on to the next production.

[12:43] Nick Salmon: And when I'm working with other people, be it whether we're just managing for another producer or whether we're producing for ourselves, I always find there's something for me to learn.

[12:53] Hal Luftig: That's, you know, I say the same thing.

[12:56] Hal Luftig: I didn't realize you have a low threshold for boredom.

[12:59] Hal Luftig: Next time I see you, I'll speak quickly.

[13:02] Hal Luftig: But yeah, I agree.

[13:09] Hal Luftig: Every show I do, I try to learn something from it, both the hits and the flops, right?

[13:15] Hal Luftig: If I always say that the day you can't stop learning something is the day you should just hang it out.

[13:22] Hal Luftig: You mentioned this a few moments ago, but one of the things I'm always most impressed about, not only in the West End, but with Playful in particular, is that you do produce a lot of new works.

[13:35] Hal Luftig: Can you walk us through how you and your partners manage to do that, commit to new works, nurture new works, get them on, things like that?

[13:45] Nick Salmon: Yeah, I mean, we usually have a few in development at any one time.

[13:50] Nick Salmon: I mean, you know, scripts that we're interested in, new scripts that we're developing or whatever.

[13:55] Nick Salmon: And provided the development process for the script goes well, then you know, one keeps pursuing it.

[14:03] Nick Salmon: And on the play side, which as I say we still do quite a lot of, you know, if you've then got a play that you think is good, then it's really how you can produce that ultimately to get it into the commercial theatre and make some money, one hopes.

[14:21] Nick Salmon: But you know, one starts off with the play, and you think, well, you know, there isn't a star role.

[14:28] Nick Salmon: Can we get such and such a person to star in it, or can we get one of the established theatres to present it with us and they do the initial presentation, and then we would move it into a commercial West End Theatre afterwards.

[14:46] Nick Salmon: We develop quite a lot of work with some of the leading not-for-profits here, you know, and they're part of the scene over here, as you know, is that we have a very large subsidised not-for-profit sector, which is basically government funded a lot of it, not all of it, but a lot of it, and certainly all for with charitable status.

[15:11] Nick Salmon: And we can be very helpful to them, and they can be very helpful to us when we do productions together, because we can find money or talent or whatever that they need for the show.

[15:22] Nick Salmon: They can help us, you know, get the show on because they have a building that they can put it on in, they have a, you know, a production manager, they have a production team there, they may have a casting director, etc.

[15:35] Nick Salmon: You know, so we've over the years done those sort of shows with a lot of very well established small not-for-profit theatres in and out of London.

[15:46] Nick Salmon: I mean, we've worked with the Donmar, the Royal Court, you know, we've worked with the RSC, um, we've worked with, you know, Sheffield Crucible, we've worked with, uh, you know, the Chichester Festival Theatre.

[15:58] Nick Salmon: I mean, all of them, Birmingham Repertory, etc., all the really good ones.

[16:03] Nick Salmon: It's a very good way of developing the work that we want to try out and see if it's commercial.

[16:08] Nick Salmon: If we get a big star into a show, then we probably don't go that route.

[16:13] Nick Salmon: We maybe just go straight into the West End.

[16:16] Nick Salmon: But it's got so much more risky in the West End now that when you've got a play that doesn't necessarily have a huge star role in, or you can't attract a big star into, it is often much easier to go via one of the not-for-profit theatres and not take the risk straight away into term.

[16:33] Hal Luftig: You know, Nick, everyone's always said for many years, including even now. And I once actually did an interview with NPR about the difference of ticket prices in New York versus London.

[16:47] Hal Luftig: You know, there's a lot of truth to that. Can you talk a little bit about what that is about, why it is that differential exists?

[16:57] Nick Salmon: I mean, Broadway is much, much more expensive than the West End. It is more unionized, it is more organized in a structural way.

[17:08] Nick Salmon: Um, everyone taking the deals, all the deals, uh, more seriously. I think that, you know, the British um enjoy the theatre, it's an art form.

[17:21] Nick Salmon: In on Broadway, the Americans enjoy the theatre, but as far as putting the shows on over there, it's much more of a business.

[17:30] Nick Salmon: And um, you know, we are uh producing cheaper because people are more enthusiastic. People don't expect to earn the high salaries here that they do in New York, and we can do it a lot cheaper.

[17:45] Nick Salmon: And I mean, you know, your example is probably now, you know, you could put a play on over here, like we moved Hangmen from the Royal Court into the West End with Robert Fox.

[17:57] Nick Salmon: And, you know, that I think costs something like 600,000 pounds to move. And when Robert took it to Broadway, where of course it suffered from all the COVID closures and stuff, but you know, he was struggling, he told me at the time, to keep the budget to four million dollars.

[18:16] Nick Salmon: And, you know, uh, and that was a play that had been done, you know. Uh everyone knew what they were doing. The set was around, it went into the Atlantic, uh, big hit there, uh, but it still costs the best part of four million to uh to open it on Broadway.

[18:35] Nick Salmon: And it's, you know, that's the difference. I mean, your load-in costs so much more than our get-in.

[18:42] Nick Salmon: I mean, we'll budget to get a play in, you know, for 20, 30,000 pounds. And, you know, with you, it's even a small play over there is gonna cost you, you know, four, four hundred, five hundred thousand dollars.

[18:57] Nick Salmon: And then, of course, you know, your wages are much higher than ours. Uh, you know, I think our minimum range is around sort of six fifty to seven hundred pounds for an actor.

[19:08] Nick Salmon: And your minimum, I think now is what over fifteen hundred dollars or whatever it is. I mean, what I think is very impressive about Broadway is that you do have actors over there that are Broadway stars who aren't necessarily stars outside of the theatre.

[19:25] Nick Salmon: Um, we find that quite difficult over here. It's difficult to be you can become a theater star, uh, but you probably need to do a bit of television and a bit of film as well.

[19:35] Nick Salmon: I mean, uh, Ian McKellen, for instance, for years and years did lots and lots of theater, but it wasn't until he started doing the big movies that he became a real star, as opposed to, you know, a theater star that you probably might not have been able to raise money on his name.

[19:52] Nick Salmon: Well, now obviously you can raise money on his name and have been able to for the last, you know, 20 or more years. But you know, until he actually got some of the film stuff going and became a film star as well as a theater star.

[20:06] Nick Salmon: Yeah, that's what I find amazing. Um, and a big difference over there. You will get people like that. You'll get someone like Daniel Radcliffe, who clearly doesn't need to, you know, come back to the theater on a break or a hiatus and um, you know, really work hard.

[20:24] Nick Salmon: It is hard work being in a show. And uh he clearly doesn't need to add that to his, uh, you know, his daily grind, but they do.

[20:34] Nick Salmon: He does. I think that is amazing, and I do think it is a big difference here. We do get the occasional uh big TV star that or movie star that comes, you know, back to Broadway, but it's rare, and um it's usually very expensive and very costly.

[20:50] Nick Salmon: You know, someone like a Hugh Jackman or somebody like that. It's very rare to get him to commit.

[20:55] Nick Salmon: You know, and that's the other problem, too, that we have here. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the commitment time that a star would need in the UK versus uh the US.

[21:07] Nick Salmon: You seem to have very short seasons, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, where you know, we don't, we can't seem to make it work with anything less than 16 or 20. How does that work?

[21:19] Nick Salmon: Well, I think the economic model's very different over here. And you can make good money off a short season with a big star, with the star getting, you know, their just rewards.

[21:32] Nick Salmon: Um, and if they're only available for a very short time, they may not get quite as much money. It's what I was saying earlier, you know, it's still possible to make money if you get a hit play over here.

[21:43] Nick Salmon: And you can you can make money on a play uh in probably, you know, 10 or 12 weeks after the opening night because the costs are so much lower, uh, and the whole economic model is different.

[21:59] Nick Salmon: And you know, if you get a big star in a play, um, you know, it would be I mean it's it's not uh impossible that you could double or treble your um your your your return on the capital uh in in the space of, you know, 12 weeks or whatever.

[22:19] Hal Luftig: That is astounding when I think about the economics here. It's astounding.

[22:24] Nick Salmon: It's like yeah, I mean, when we were we worked with um uh Stuart Thompson um on one of the last productions he did, which was No Man's Land with Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart.

[22:36] Nick Salmon: And I mean, that made enough money in London to recoup its loss on Broadway where it had been done in a repertoire, and this was just the single play done.

[22:45] Nick Salmon: And I think the investors got, you know, three times their money back just from a limited season in London.

[22:52] Nick Salmon: And we did an NT live uh live capture of it as well, which added to the investors' profits and so on. So if you're lucky enough to get a hit, you know, you can do it.

[23:03] Nick Salmon: And that was only in Wyndham's, which seats what, 700, 750 people. That's also what's settled to me.

[23:09] Nick Salmon: The theaters in London are much smaller. There, they're some of them are can be in the hundreds like that, whereas you know, a small theater for us over here is is a thousand, eleven hundred, something like that.

[23:24] Hal Luftig: Um Nick, I wanted to take a little left turn, if you will, if we could, uh, and talk about UK touring, because that's another big, big difference between the US and the UK.

[23:36] Hal Luftig: Um, and I know you have toured many, many shows. What are some of the considerations you think about when you decide to take a show on tour in the UK?

[23:47] Nick Salmon: Well, I think you have to think about um what market it's going to appeal to and how broad that market is. How how big the theaters can be that you play it in, and how long it can run in each market.

[24:03] Nick Salmon: Uh, the biggest difference between UK touring and US touring is that um in the States, as I understand it, you you normally get more or less a guarantee of your costs plus an upside if there is one.

[24:21] Nick Salmon: Whereas over here, most of the touring deals are done on risk. So, you know, you might get a split of the box office of 80-20 or whatever you get.

[24:33] Nick Salmon: But the risk is the producers as well as the theaters, because if you play it a ghastly business, then you're not getting any money and you're losing.

[24:43] Nick Salmon: And there's no guarantee for the producer that he will make money touring. So you have to be very, very careful what you do, how you do it, and how you plan it, and how long you sit down and date.

[24:56] Nick Salmon: And it's it's an ever-changing environment. You know, some years this date is the date everyone wants, and you want to go to that place because they're doing really good business.

[25:06] Nick Salmon: And then, you know, you suddenly find three years later you go back there with another show, and it's not doing very good business because the whole theater in that area has slipped for some reason.

[25:16] Nick Salmon: I mean, the management's changed, the marketing guy runs it has changed, you know, whoever's whoever's changed has changed, and the whole thing doesn't work quite as well.

[25:27] Nick Salmon: So you have to keep your finger a bit on that pulse, and you have to be prepared to take the risk. Um, you can still make good money, but the risk is much, much higher than in the States.

[25:37] Hal Luftig: And do a lot of these theaters in the major cities outside of London have what we call subscriptions, uh, where they sell a season in advance, and the show your show that goes in there would be part of that season, and you'd be guaranteed a certain amount of uh guaranteed income because they've already sold tickets on a whole season. Do you have that?

[26:00] Nick Salmon: It's a very good question because what has never worked over here is subscription. I don't know why it doesn't work.

[26:08] Nick Salmon: It has never ever worked. It's been tried and tried by everyone. I think that um the audiences over here in the regions are not necessarily as well heeled and as wealthy as some of your American audiences are, and to get them to buy, you know, five plays in advance when they might not, or five shows, sorry, in advance when they might not see one or might not enjoy one of them is very difficult.

[26:36] Nick Salmon: They tend to be more selective. The theaters tend to have several different audiences. You know, they'll have a local audience that likes coming to ballet, say, uh, you know, for the three weeks a year they do ballet, or that wants to come and see Glyndebourne touring for the week a year they get Glyndebourne and then wants to come and see plays and wants to come and see musicals.

[27:00] Nick Salmon: But they're all those audiences are slightly different constituency. Some of them may go and see everything, but a lot of them will just think, oh well, you know, I really fancy going to see Kinky Boots.

[27:10] Nick Salmon: That sounds great fun. So they trot off to see Kinky Boots, but the following week, you know, Ian McKellen's there starring in a show, and they don't go and see it because they're the musical audience and they don't want to see a play.

[27:22] Nick Salmon: When there's a big new popular musical out, you know, they'll push the prices up on that show.

[27:28] Nick Salmon: And you do see other shows sometimes suffering, you know, because uh I don't know, Matilda's out and touring about, you know, um, the second tour of Shrek, which we did at the same time, didn't do as well as we thought it should have done.

[27:43] Nick Salmon: I mean, it recouped, but it didn't do as well as we thought it should have done. And I think it was partly because, you know, there was a big new family show out around the same time that was probably costing more, you know, because we we were out the second time, which is always more difficult.

[27:59] Nick Salmon: You know, the first time we toured Shrek, it did very well. The second time it just about broke even. You know, it's it's sort of it's it's a strange market, very strange market.

[28:09] Nick Salmon: And it's it can be quite fickle. And you must be very, very cognizant when you book a theater, uh, how much space or how much time there is between uh the show that was in before you and the show that's coming in after you, correct?

[28:27] Hal Luftig: Because, as you say, if it's not subscription, uh, I would imagine that many people can't afford to see two shows, you know, in you know, week after week, you know, back to back.

[28:39] Hal Luftig: So is that something you you take into consideration to uh the spacing and what's before you and what's after you in that particular theater?

[28:48] Nick Salmon: As much as we can, we do. And we are very aware that there are certain shows that'll be touring at the same time as we are, where we really don't want to clash with them.

[28:58] Nick Salmon: So we don't want to not only be too close to them in playing weeks, but we also, you know, want to make sure that the booking and the on-sale and all that stuff doesn't clash with them.

[29:08] Nick Salmon: You know, when we take uh Wicked out on tour in the UK, for instance, you know, we are very careful to make sure that we avoid, for instance, The Lion King, because you know, there's two big shows there that really can do much better if they stay apart.

[29:24] Nick Salmon: So I mean, we would we would ring up the uh the guy who booked The Lion King and say, when are you going where? What are you doing? How do we avoid you? How do you avoid us?

[29:34] Nick Salmon: You know, and that sort of stuff. Um, and one tends to do that with those, and then with the not so big blockbusters, one tends to make sure that you are not gonna clash with something that is um, you know, real competition because it's not going to do either of you any good.

[29:53] Nick Salmon: Whichever one is gonna take them all more money, that's still not going to take as much if there's real competition that's close by.

[30:00] Nick Salmon: I mean, if there's six months apart, three months apart, then you know you're fine. But you have to be careful. And that is a big difference than what we do here in the US. As I say, we do have subscriptions. So because people pre-buy their tickets so far in advance, that in some cases they are seeing two blockbusters, you know, a few weeks apart, with maybe a show that's not such a blockbuster in between. And usually that works out okay. I mean, every producer hopes for single ticket sales, but in a lot of these major cities in the US, you are walking into a theater that has already sold a million dollars worth of tickets, you know, of the season. So for your particular show, we call it, you know, the loaded.

Sometimes you go into a theater with a million dollar loaded, and that you know, that's never a bad thing. Well, it's a fantastic luxury, Hal, you know, to have that safety net. We would love to have it here. Of course, part of the problem with this country is that it's much smaller than the states. So the markets tend to overlap and tend to be closer to each other. So, you know, if you live in Leeds, you can go to the theater in Bradford very easily. So it'd be very difficult to take the same show to the two theaters unless there was sort of nine months between them or whatever, because you will eat the audience up, you know, and those markets are much smaller here. You know, your cities are huge, you know, London's a big city, and then you've got Manchester and Birmingham as big cities, you know, in Edinburgh.

But you know, they're all quite close together. You know, the country's only what three or four hundred miles long, four hundred miles, whatever it is from London to Edinburgh. It seems so big to me every time I go there. I'm like, wow, this is huge. Nick, you I wanted to ask you a question that that you know, just there is no definitive answer, but I I'm curious as to your opinion on this. You mentioned a few minutes ago that you know, audiences are very fickle. Have you noticed over the course of your career or even over the last 10, 15 years, that tastes and what audiences are looking for have changed in a way that makes a difference to what they see and what you produce and things like that?

[32:24] Nick Salmon: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think that in London the musicals have become much more important, and in the UK regions, the musicals have become much bigger, much more important, much more of a sort of blockbuster brand. And I think that the audiences have become more choosy as to what they go and see. And you know, it's difficult now in the West End, certainly, and in the regions as well, to sell a play without a big star in it. Whereas, you know, when I was much younger, and Michael Codron was in his heyday producing the most fantastic work by new authors like Harold Pinter and so on, he didn't necessarily need a big star in the play. He could get away with or brilliantly produce the right cast in the play without a big star to sell it, and the audiences would still come then.

It's much more difficult to do that now, you know, however good the play is, it's more difficult to make it work unless you've got that unique selling point of something. I mean, be it the star, be it the fact that it's just come in from the Donmar Warehouse with great reviews or whatever. You know, it's much more difficult to get the audiences to be adventurous, I think. You know, they've got so much adventure in this country to go in in the subsidized sector, you know. They can go to the National Theatre, they can go to the Royal Court, they can go wherever in London. And, you know, and it's probably cheaper than coming into the West End. And, you know, they will probably get something that's a bit more adventurous sometimes.

And, you know, you just think it's become more tricky to get the plays that are not star-driven or the musicals that are not, you know, established brands to work. And I think certainly, as I say, we do more musicals now. A lot of them come over from the states. You're much better over there, probably developing and producing new musicals than we are. We don't quite have that resource talent, whatever it is we're missing. We've got a lot of talent here, but it doesn't always seem to be focused on the musical theater, because a lot of the talent here has come up from the universities into the subsidized theaters and works much more from an intellectual basis into plays, which have a big, big development and audience in the subsidized theatre. So, you know, the whole thing becomes slightly differently balanced.

[35:09] Hal Luftig: Nick, I also I wanted to take a second and ask you to share a little bit about Stage One, how that came about, how that works.

[35:17] Hal Luftig: Because I think it's an incredible thing that you guys do there.

[35:21] Hal Luftig: Can you tell us a little about Stage One?

[35:24] Nick Salmon: I ran Stage One for about 22 or 23 years. But I haven't had any close involvement with it for the last eight or nine years. It's now run by a producer called Joe Smith, who's doing a wonderful job with it. But it was originally set up to try and help the commercial theater with commercial investment, and it was set up as a fund that rotated. So you in the fund invested the money, and you know, what came back got reinvested and so on. While I was there, we then developed that in many directions, particularly into developing new producers and running workshops for them and running helping them raise more than just the normal amount of money that we would put in. We did a whole load of development work with new producers.

We set up a big endowment fund which was supported by all the producers in London who used to still do give a pair or two pairs or three pairs of seats a week to the Stage One endowment fund. It's extraordinary how successful this has been. And it now runs not only runs workshops for new producers, but you know, it's got now three or four schemes running it which go into the regions and help producers there. You know, they have a system now whereby you can take on an apprentice from Stage One who's sponsored by Stage One, so goes to work in a producer's office, and part of their salary is paid by Stage One, and the other part is paid by the producer. And it's great because it really gives people who want to produce a chance to put their toe in the water, find out if they have any aptitude for it, find out the basics about what it's about, and hopefully go on to be successful producers.

[37:26] Hal Luftig: I think that is amazing. I wanted specifically to talk to you about that because I think it is amazing as you must know or think that producing isn't something that you can read from a textbook. It has to you have to be in it to actually absorb the nuances of it. Can you talk a little bit about how workshops, you mentioned workshops and things like that are structured for these, you know, up and coming and mentorees of producing?

[38:00] Nick Salmon: Yes, I mean that they're normally done every six months, every three months, whatever, and they're probably a three-day session, so they probably start on a Thursday lunchtime and finish on a Saturday afternoon, two and a half days, three days. And they cover, they give a flavor and a taste and cover sort of aspects of producing, you know, from budgeting to marketing to acquiring rights to theatre deals to whatever. And obviously they don't have in that time an awful lot of time to go into the absolute minutiae and the details, but they give a very good overall picture of how the commercial theater works. And a lot of people that go on those workshops, you know, are people actually from the subsidized theater, the not-for-profit theater as well, because they all want to know how the commercial theater works because when the nets come to do a deal with one of us, they want to know how it works and how they exploit their productions with us.

So, you know, but no, they're good. And then they also do other sort of one-off workshops and things and courses and things like that, but it's good. And then those people who attend those workshops at times are placed with a mentor, a working producer and interns for that person and works alongside that person.

[39:31] Nick Salmon: That's correct, yes. I mean, you wouldn't normally get that internship unless you've done the workshop course. I mean, we're playful, you know, when well our younger team who aren't as experienced, you know, and as sort of the production assistants on shows. If they haven't done the Stage One workshop, we'll send them on it and pay for them to go on it.

[39:55] Hal Luftig: Well, if I attend that workshop, Nick, can I be then assigned to you as your intern? Because I think there's a ton to learn.

[40:06] Nick Salmon: You know, I'd agree if you'd agree.

[40:08] Hal Luftig: Yes, Al, you're very welcome. But I think I think you should, I think you should be probably one of the mentors, not one of the mentorees.

[40:17] Nick Salmon: Yeah, you're way too kind.

[40:20] Hal Luftig: Well, Nick, I know we, you know, as they say, all good things must come to an end. And I am so grateful and thank you for sharing your time with us today. I know our listeners will be thrilled to hear how things work from your perspective, as we say on the other side of the pond. But before you go, I do have a section of the program which is called Rapid Fire Questions. I'm going to ask you three questions. Don't worry, they're not scary. But I all I ask is that you answer them with the first thing that comes into your head. Please don't overthink it, just the first thing that pops into your head. Okay. So here's number one. Easy. What is your favorite musical?

[41:06] Nick Salmon: Well, it's not as easy as it sounds, Hal. I think I've got several because I have rather broad taste, but I love My Fair Lady, I love Sweeney Todd, I love Kinky Boots. You know, there are other I can't do I can't choose between those sort of three or four.

[41:24] Hal Luftig: Okay, fair enough. Fair enough. This wasn't meant to be Sophie's choice. You don't have to kill two to have one. The second one is what is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater? And by wacky I mean silly, ridiculous, one of those I can't believe I just saw that. What is that moment for you?

[41:48] Nick Salmon: Many years ago I did a play called Ducking Out, which Mike Ockrent directed. And it was star-driven with Warren Mitchell and Leslie Sands and a lot of English local stars, and the final scene was Warren Mitchell in bed, and the whole family, Leslie Sands and the rest of the cast, were all gathered around his bed. And one of the actors who will remain nameless, but a very lovely Irish actor had had one too many that night. And he walked in, he walked, he walked in. This was the end of Act Two, and he hadn't been in Act One, but he'd been somewhere else, I think, in Act One. And he walked in and he took one look at Warren in the bed, and one look at Leslie sitting by the bed. Warren was meant to be dying in the bed at this point, or his character was. And took one look at them, and he said, "Well, fuck this for a laugh." He walked down to the front of the stage, jumped off it, and went out through the stalls.

[42:45] Hal Luftig: And was the audience like, what the hell just happened?

[42:49] Nick Salmon: Yeah. And of course, poor Warren immediately ducked under the bed covers to avoid whatever was going on. And poor old Leslie, who was sitting there sort of mourning his brother who was dying in the play, had to cope and get the rest of the cast out of the mess.

[43:07] Hal Luftig: Oh, that's hilarious. So, and the third question relates to that. So, from that wacky moment, the lesson you would teach me from that would be.

[43:21] Nick Salmon: Well, alcohol can it's great fun, and we all love it, but you just have to be careful. And once you've got somebody who's an alcoholic, you really need to look after them because it's a really bad disease, particularly in a member of your cast. And this guy had had a history of being an alcoholic, which was sad.

[43:40] Hal Luftig: What a great lesson. It's true, true, true. Nick Salmon, I cannot thank you enough. You're one of my favorite people, not only in the US, but in the UK too. And I look forward literally to the day when I can fly over there, and you and I can have one of our infamous lunches or dinners. Thank you for joining us today. Be well, be safe, and I'll see you soon.

[44:07] Nick Salmon: Take care. Thank you very much for having me, Hal. It's great to talk to you, and I look forward to seeing you soon, too.

[44:17] Hal Luftig: Thank you for listening to today's episode. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, is produced by Dylan Marie Parent and Kevin Connor, and is edited by Derek Gunther. Our theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Larry O'Keefe. Be sure to subscribe to Broadway Biz and follow us on Instagram at Broadway Biz Podcast.