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[0:03] Hal Luftig: Hi everyone, this is Hal Luftig with my Broadway Podcast Network show, Broadway Biz, where every episode I will chat with my friends, some of the top theater professionals in the business about the business of Broadway.

[0:28] Hal Luftig: You'll learn to raise cash to open your snack. You'll be all the rage from the patron stage. In all time you'll know the business of show, the greatest job there is. So join our squad as we upload our love thing, Broadway business.

[0:49] Hal Luftig: Let's get busy with the Broadway Biz.

[0:56] Hal Luftig: Today, my guest is Mike Isaacson.

[0:59] Hal Luftig: Mike is one of my best friends and producing partners in the business. He and I have known each other and worked together for the past 20 years. Mike is currently the artistic director and executive producer at the Muni in St. Louis. Today we'll talk a little bit about what we worked on together in the past and the current projects we're working on together right now on this episode of Broadway Biz.

[1:25] Hal Luftig: Mike, I want to thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy day and joining me on my podcast, Broadway Biz. Full disclosure, you are one of my favorite, favorite people and to work with and to know. And there are many times that I think back on certain situations that you and I have experienced together, and I just howl with laughter. I can't recall if at the time it was so funny, but now it's hilarious. So I want to thank you for all of that. You know, years of friendship, years of being a co-compadre. And now thank you for joining the show.

[2:08] Hal Luftig: What's funny about that is that I try to describe to people what you know, when you're fortunate enough to be a part of a Broadway show and particularly a new Broadway musical, and that all of that, and it even extends to the Muni too. It is a very special particular experience, and all of those people, when you do that, you have something that you all know for the rest of your lives. It's, you know, it's just singular and distinct and strange and beautiful and that, and you and I and Kristin Caskey have really been around so many amazing experiences and people and moments, and you know, that's a gift to my life. You know, you've been a gift to my life.

[3:00] Mike Isaacson: Well, thanks, Hal, and you mine, the one that keeps on giving.

[3:04] Hal Luftig: Mike, I couldn't help but heartbreakingly read about the postponement. You know, what was that like? I mean, I'm just so heartbroken for all the people in St. Louis. How's that? How's that all going?

[3:19] Mike Isaacson: Well, we let everybody know. You and I are talking on good Lord, what day is that? I taste Thursday, and we told the community on Monday. And, you know, you have to deal with sadness. What has been very moving is people's response of we're really gonna miss this. There was one report that actually really gladdened my heart. One of the sort of independent weekly newspapers that never reviews us and never has, I've not paid much attention to us, did an article or an online piece, and they literally wrote, you know, theaters have been canceling and this and this, but you know, when the Muni announced, that really fucking stings. And I was just, you know, I laughed, but I was moved by it. It just holds a really special place in this community, and people were really rooting for us.

Once everybody sort of knew and I what I call light pencil sense of what we could do and what those parameters were, you had to take a step back and imagine what that would be like and ask the question, is this so far off from what we're doing? Is it a mistake to do it? You know, but the big factor we were looking at is the local requirement health, you know, put down on by our health and city officials is 25% of your total occupancy plus social distancing, which means essentially for the Muni, it would have been 2,500 people a night, and you would have to spread them all throughout, you know, 10,000 seats. And if you looked at that, that I think would be very hard to enjoy and experience no matter what's on the stage.

[5:08] Hal Luftig: Yeah, I can understand that. And even though 2,500 people a night sounds like a lot of people, you know, knowing the Muni and the configuration as I do, you know, it would have looked sparse. It would have, I know it sounds like a lot of people, but it would have looked like a quarter full or something like that. And, you know, unlike other theaters that I've ever experienced, the one the thing that when I heard about the postponement that hurt my heart was that I know through you and experiencing myself that it's not just theater for the St. Louis community. It's a cultural event. You know, people go and they have dinner there and they have picnics there and they see their friends and you know, and it's just more than going to, you know, quote unquote, a theater. It is really about kind of like a, like I said, a cultural event that happens every summer. And that kind of just broke my heart.

[6:10] Mike Isaacson: We're fortunate enough that over the span of the theater, we've picked up, you know, the essential gift of ritual. You know, it carries a place in people's lives. So it's so painful to not be able to provide that.

[6:31] Hal Luftig: I know. I can imagine. Well, my offer still stands, Mike. I told you in another conversation, if you want, I'm happy to fly out there and you and I can do the Hal and Mike show.

[6:42] Mike Isaacson: We are all about sock puppets.

[6:44] Hal Luftig: Right. I absolutely I find us very entertaining. I don't know why they wouldn't, but you know, to each of them.

[6:51] Hal Luftig: But you know what, Mike, it will come back. Hang in tight. So, Mike, I want to start at the very beginning, because I know that you have a very interesting trajectory. So can you tell our listeners how you got started in this business and then what was your journey from that to producing?

[7:12] Mike Isaacson: It I mean, it's admittedly strange and certainly not a straight line. I actually never studied theater. It's all it was a passion where I'm completely self-taught. I moved around a lot growing up. My dad was a wonderful, is a wonderful man who had an uncanny knack of getting a job with the company right before it went down the dumper. Yeah, as my older brother used to say, we'd get to a new city and he'd look around and be like, don't unpack.

[7:47] Mike Isaacson: But so anyway, home base and all these cities for me was the library. And wherever we went, we always it was a big, it was a household that really loved journalism and newspapers and magazines. So somehow in all that, I just really began reading about theater. I didn't even see any live theater. But and then I would go to the library and read plays, and that's when I discovered cast albums and, you know, went down that rabbit hole that so many of us did. But then I also discovered Variety. And I would read the legit section, you know, Hummel and all that stuff back in the 70s. And it was fascinating to me the Broadway grosses and the road and how it worked and reviews and out of town reviews. It was like this mystical world out somewhere that I was like, well, this is interesting, and you know, I like subscribed to Variety in high school. You know, I knew I was in the high school shows type stuff, but I knew I had no talent, but I had no interest in performing.

[8:48] Mike Isaacson: But I ended up, I got a scholarship to St. Louis University, and while I was there, I ended up on the newspaper, and I mean, now when I reread it, it's painful because I'm just aping everything ever read. But I was the film critic and the theater critic, and my first week in St. Louis, they reopened the fabulous Fox Theater, which is the big Broadway touring, gorgeous touring house here in town. Beautiful old historic music movie house. You know, there's one in Detroit, St. Louis, and Atlanta. And the very first day I'm walking on campus and somebody mentioned, oh, they need us. I was like, great. So I went down, knocked on a door, signed up to be an usher, and you know, it's all weird how it all came together.

It was the Fox Theater. The Muni was actually the presenter of the Broadway shows, and they had the free seats there. So between ushering and the free seats, I would see these major tours two, three, four times, and that was sort of my class because in really understanding musicals, because you know, with the musical, you got to get under the hood, and how all the parts relate, and I was just fascinated by it and the impact on the audience.

[10:06] Mike Isaacson: And again, this was just sort of something I was doing right after college. The journalism led me to McDonnell Douglas, where I was in corporate PR, which was an interesting chapter, but I stayed a freelance theater critic and kept going there. Then I ended up back at the university in sort of the marketing department and then the press department, and then I ended up in the as the assistant of the president of the university, writing speeches, managing that, and that was really the beginning of sort of an intense education. I was still doing the theater reviews, but that's when I began working with board members and donors, and you see what a university president does, which is basically have to raise money all the time.

They made me head of fundraising for the university, which was a ridiculous endeavor, but they had to throw a hole for a while, and I did it. And then I thought, you know, I am just in the wrong place. I don't know what I'm doing here. And you know, everything was sort of good, but at some level I thought, uh, you you've made a wrong turn here. So I all during this period at night I'd been going to school getting an MBA. So I just sort of thought, I don't want a career in university fundraising. And the thing about universities, they're amazing, but you blink and it's 20 years later. Like they just have a sense of time that is so paced and methodical, and that's just not the way I wanted to live my life.

[11:35] Mike Isaacson: So I left the university, and then it's just one of those random, crazy things. I knew David Fay, who was at that point running the Fox Theater in St. Louis, because I was a theater critic and because I'd been at the university, which was down the street from the theater, I called him and asked him to lunch, and he said yes, because we sort of casually knew each other. And we were sitting there talking, and he's an amazing human being. I'm forever grateful to him. And, you know, three quarters of the way through the lunch, he said to me, So how's the university? And I said, Well, I'm actually, you know, in the process of leaving. And he said, Really, what's going on? And I said, Well, you know, I just feel like I need to change.

And he goes, Well, what are you interested in doing? And I said, Well, I think I should come work for you. And he looked at me, and he just looked at me and he went, huh? And it was one of those ways he said, huh? I went, holy shit, something's going on here. And we began this conversation, and suddenly I realized there was something. And about 20 minutes into, he said, Well, that's interesting. We were just talking today about how we needed to bring somebody on because we're about to take our first show to Broadway.

[12:48] Mike Isaacson: And I'm like, is this happening? So we began talking, and I said to him, Look, it um here's the deal. The university is paying my freight for the next couple months, so you give me something to do, I will do it for you for free. You will see my work ethic, you'll see my work, you'll see if we get along, because I know this is an important position. And the deal is if I do it right, you hire me on Labor Day. And he said, Okay. And that's what happened. And so that's when I started working for Fox Theatricals, which at that point was sort of there was St. Louis, David and I, and then in Chicago was a guy named Mick Levitt, and his assistant was Kristin Caskey.

[13:31] Hal Luftig: May I just ask, was are we talking about the Thoroughly Modern Millie was the show that David Fay was referring to?

[13:38] Mike Isaacson: Jekyll and Hyde.

[13:39] Hal Luftig: Hi, oh, okay. Well, the story of Millie, this is where that goes. I they hire me on Labor Day. I go to that first NAMPT festival, or for me, which was like three or four weeks later, and I see the Millie reading, and I come back and David's like, Was there anything good? I said, Yeah, there was this amazing quirky strange, beautiful stage adaptation of Thoroughly Modern Millie. And I think there's something there, but you know, at that point, Fox wasn't really known as an entity, and the rumor was Neederlanders were going for it. There was all this stuff. I said, I don't know if we better get a shot at it.

[14:13] Mike Isaacson: And then maybe three weeks later, he walked into my office and my office, let's call it what it was, a closet with a door. And he looks at me with that same look with huh, and he goes, So tell me about this Thoroughly Modern Millie. And I looked at him, I said, Did you get a call? He goes, Yeah. Wow. I didn't even, I didn't even know that story. Wow. And so at that point, Kristen and I kind of really didn't even know each other. Like we actually first met really at the opening of Jacqueline Hyde, which was April of 97. And then, you know, you know the journey from there. Well, the rest, as I say, is history. You know, Mike, I've always been fascinated by always wanted to ask you was your life as a journalist and a drama critic, how has that impacted on you as a producer when you read someone else's review, or do you look at what's on the stage or in a script differently because of that experience, that skill?

[15:20] Mike Isaacson: Yeah, I think it had a huge impact. I think it still does. I think I'm really good at reading audiences, and I think I'm really good at looking at what they're seeing and figuring out when they're getting it, when they're not, like when the information isn't happening, sort of that, or what's not. I don't have the answers, the creative answers of how to fix it, but I'm a really good diagnostic. You know, I can make the diagnosis. You can feel when the audience is engaged, you can feel when they pull back, you can feel when they're confused. You and I, certain generation, we kind of all grew up on, you know, Walter Kerr and then kind of Frank Rich for the icons. And what was interesting about those two writers, when they saw something that was really exciting, their writing was exciting.

That is always that's why. So yes, when I read writers now, you know, I mean theater criticism is essentially completely gone right now because of what's happening in the newspapers and everything. But there's very, very few writers who are even professional that I read that I think actually have that quality. But I love the fact that, you know, your writing, your criticism was based not only on your thoughts, but what the audiences around you were feeling. I think the next show we produce together, man, you need to write a review. We'll quote it to the nines, you know, and just say Mike Isaacson. You know, it's just, you know, there you go. Like I always felt like if you walk in as a writer or as a critic and they're doing a restoration comedy, your job was to experience it and essentially evaluate for your reader how well they did at their goal of a restoration comedy.

The thing that ticks me off so much, which is around so much more now, is you get these reviews to begin with. Well, why would anyone do a restoration comedy? And that to me is actually deeply offensive. Your job as a writer is to evaluate based on what they believe is their valid artistic mission and what they're trying to accomplish and create and celebrate. I'm thrown by this new school of criticism that's like, well, why would anyone do a musical? Or why would anyone do it? You know, you're sort of like, really? Okay.

[17:37] Hal Luftig: Right. Yeah. I agree. Sometimes you read them and you think, you know, I, uh, what one of the things that bother me most is I finish reading a review and I say to myself, did he like it? Yeah, I feel like I'm writing an I'm reading an essay. Um, I wanted to talk a little bit about your journey to the Muni. I know that we probably have a lot of listeners who are not familiar with what the Muni is or where the Muni is, or how they tie into the community of St. Louis. So I'm wondering if you could give us a brief history of the Muni and sort of what it does.

[18:15] Mike Isaacson: Yeah, the Muni is, you know, for decades, its slogan was alone in its greatness, which is actually I think still applicable. It is 11,000-seat outdoor theater in St. Louis, Missouri, situated in a glorious public park, Forest Park. This season will be its 102nd season. It first began as a civic idea. It began as an idea by the mayor, by Mayor Keel, who said, we will be a better city if we can all gather in this central place of the city in the park together and experience these great works of music and theater and what it is. And in its core mission is access to all. We do a season of seven major musicals, and we rehearse each in 12 days, and they run for seven nights. So, you know, if we do 70,000 people, that's like five weeks in a Broadway theater.

You know, it's this extraordinary, crazy, beautiful, challenging idea and place. And but the real gift is it's part of people's lives. You know, they've been going since they were kids. Their parents went, their grandparents, their great-grandparents, people keep their tickets in families for generations. You know, we have the gift of that time of ritual. You're given the gift of a place in people's lives. You know, so you have parents bringing their kids to The King and I for the first time, knowing they had that shared experience with their parents, which is really mind-boggling. It's the strange, quirky, fabulous, unbelievable tradition.

[20:22] Hal Luftig: Well, I want to give you a couple of shout-outs. First of all, when you were just talking about having the community at the theater, I've had Tori Bailey, who is the head of TDF, on the podcast, and we were talking about the importance of making theater not just a specialty like someone's birthday or you know, someone's anniversary, not not being that, but making it a regular part of their socialization, of their, you know, the way they get entertainment, things like that, especially from a very young age. One of the things that I truly love, and I want listeners to know, is that the Muni gives away 1,500 free seats every night. And all you have to do to get them is show up. And it's just it is it is an example, I think, a beautiful example of the power of theater, not only to touch its audience, but to unite a community.

And I tip my hat off to you for that. And if my listeners are ever in the St. Louis area in the summer, I beg you, it will be the best three hours you've ever spent. It will be an experience you won't forget.

[21:45] Hal Luftig: Mike, you, you know, you're a Broadway producer, you produce at the Muni. Um, and I'm sure that there are certain considerations, you know, for both. The first being, I'm sure that your budget at the Muni is nowhere near what a Broadway show would cost. Um, but what are some of the things you as the producer of the Muni think about when you're choosing a season?

[22:11] Mike Isaacson: The primary thing I look for is sort of again when you have a mission of I believe that if you try to please everyone, you'll fail. Try to be one thing. I don't know what that is. So if you're a theater that is supposed to be a celebration or a reflection or have a relationship to a community, and St. Louis is an incredibly diverse community, you should have diverse offerings within the world of musical theater. Since I've been there each season, there's always two sort of classic from the, you know, historic great American musical, you know, per season, two classic titles. There's always at least two shows that have never been on the Muni stage before. There's always one, always one family classic, Disney or Wizard of Oz or something, which is a huge cultural ritual.

And then the other two is where you really sort of bang your head against when you look at the five and what's come into licensing, what's available, who you know, artists, directors have been working out, what what's what is their dream. So my hope is when if you're a citizen, there's two things. As a subscriber, if you're gonna give us seven nights, which is unbelievable, you know, within 10 weeks, that you would look at this and go, that's a great adventure. If you're a single ticket buyer, just, you know, somebody in St. Louis, my hope is you would look at one of the seven shows and go, oh, that one's for me. I want to see that.

[23:49] Hal Luftig: And you have, if I understand correctly, your subscribers have not only held steady, but have increased over the years under your guidance. Is that not true?

[24:02] Mike Isaacson: Yeah, we have. It's been it's been lovely. I think, you know, you know, sales, there's so many factors that go into sales. I think, you know, I changed the whole philosophy and model of how we created and produced the shows there. And by year, I want to say by the third season, they were really into that new energy. They got it. They got the new sensibility and the new ideas, and they really relished what that was: the inventiveness, the surprise, the us testing ourselves and pushing ourselves. That created its own conversation, and that conversation translated into more and more ticket sales and more and more people making the choice to say, okay, I'm gonna make this a part of my life. But I do think that, like I said, it's not the words, it's the actions.

And this theater means so much to so many people that they're going, you know, well above and beyond a ticket purchase by committing to this institution so it can last for even longer. And, um, but you know, part of that is what I wanted the community to see is like if this is if this institution, if this theater, which is so different from the Broadway idea, which we're gonna get to, but this institution is a mirror of what we are and who we are. I kept asking the question don't we then deserve, you know, the best things that are wonderful. This audience sees our commitment to them. You may not I I don't care, you know, I I can't control whether you like a show or not. I don't even know what that means. But I can control as you walk out, if you want to say, okay, that's not my thing, but boy, they really did it. But boy, that was something that I can do, or that's what I have to do.

[26:05] Mike Isaacson: Right. You know, I, you know, taste is something when you have 10,000 people, you're just you can't play to it. But the idea of the passion and the ingenuity and the power and surprise of the production, yeah, I better damn well answer that. The real point is that whether they like it or not, they come back, they've accepted, like, okay, that show wasn't my cup of tea. But the next one might be. Mike, I wanted to ask you a question since this is about the business side of theater. Um, have there ever been a show that you couldn't do because it was just too expensive or too big? And you know, or has there ever been a show that you thought was too expensive or too big, and you figured out a way to actually do that within the parameters of what you have?

[27:02] Mike Isaacson: Yeah, and this is where my chapter when I was at the Fox Theater here in St. Louis, where that experience and education really came into play for the Muni because you've got seven shows, right? I mean, it's so hard because we just finished a season and we immediately have to go diving into very clear budgeting for the next season to get a sense about it. But so I present a budget to the board and say, okay, this season, this next coming season is going to cost us X. Now, here's what I know about X. I know I'm building seven houses. I know basically this one has three stories, I know this one has a pool, I know this one is, you know, an RV. But what I don't know is, you know, who needs curtains, who needs a staircase, how many lights, how many that?

But I'm committing to this number, and then we go into the actual creation of the show because I need as much flexibility working with the designers and the directors and the choreographers and the artists to help them realize their dreams and to listen to their ideas and go, that's fantastic. I gotta figure out a way to make that happen. So you're doing that in relationship to sort of this fixed set of resources when you only know you have 12 days to rehearse, and of those days when you're doing your set, you've got to build in six days, you've got to paint in three.

[28:36] Mike Isaacson: Like there's certain things that have to happen for there to be a show on opening night. It actually puts in sort of a great natural control of expenses. It's this forever moving Rubik's Cube, but the cube never changes. Does that make sense?

[28:51] Hal Luftig: Yeah, totally, completely. I'm still fascinated, and I think what the Muni does is so terrific. Another thing that I've noticed you do is you give young would-be directors a chance, someone who has not directed before. You up everybody's game when they work at the Muni because they're suddenly given a lot more responsibility. How did that come about? Does that make you worried, nervous? Because on Broadway, if that doesn't work out, you know, you're kind of screwed.

[29:29] Mike Isaacson: It's a problem with Broadway. It's one of the reasons I wanted to take the job. Because what I felt was going on in our Broadway world is incredibly talented people were not getting opportunities to learn their craft in safe places to experiment, to grow, and to make mistakes. And you don't become great at anything without serious learning, success, and mistakes. You know, I mean, you know, Michael Bennett went and did stuff. Tommy Tune choreographed his first show in his career at the Muni.

[30:13] Hal Luftig: No, really?

[30:14] Mike Isaacson: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So it has this tradition of being a place where people could learn and safely find their voices. And I really, really wanted to honor that and continue that. And I want that because it brings such an amazing energy. It inspires the company. It inspires everybody backstage. Like there's this incredibly talented woman, Beth Crandall, who first came in as a dancer early on, and then she was an assistant to several of the choreographers. And then, you know, last season I lost somebody at the last second, and I said, okay, you're up. And she did an incredible job on Matilda. And everybody backstage was so inspired by her and willing to help her out because, you know, she's our gal, you know? It was sort of that thing.

[31:09] Hal Luftig: You know, and that's very moving to me. You know, it's like choking me up because I agree with you, but it is, you have to admit, it's gutsy and it's bold because someone's a good assistant in a different, you know, venue, like Dennis Jones, you know, he was working under Jerry in a commercial arena to give him a whole show, you know, at the Muni, which is four times the size of whatever theater we played in. It's a bold move, Mike, and I commend you for it.

[31:44] Mike Isaacson: I say it constantly. The only way we can do what we're doing is no fear allowed. And what's interesting about it is because of the 12 days, because of everybody working, you can get fear out of the system. And I'm looking, let's just do the best we can. Let's set our ambitions high. We can do this. Just trust yourself. And that's actually for people on stage and backstage. That's a very moving part of the whole experience. You know, and that's the difference that happens in the Broadway development thing is the more time there is, the more fear can creep in. People get into their heads. They begin questioning themselves. It's a natural part of it. But what's glorious about the Muni is we kind of don't give them the space or the room to do that. We all just kind of go, all right, let's do it. Let's do what we do, who we are. And for the most part, that has really worked out.

[32:46] Hal Luftig: So it's kind of again, it's kind of baked into the system, which is terrific. But you know, Mike, you gave me a wonderful set. You're a wonderful guest. You give me all these great segues. So I am now going to drag you from the Midwest all the way to the East Coast and Broadway. I'm dragging you. I want from your point of view, different from what you know, draws you to shows at the Muni. What draws you to a story for Broadway?

[33:21] Mike Isaacson: I think what's brilliant and daunting about Broadway is that the story, the tradition of the Broadway musical is, you know, the outsider-insider idea and composers and how the music has reflected the people of that era, people in the seats of that era for the most part. And there's this whole strain of who we are as a country, who we are as a culture that is so amazingly a part of Broadway. And I just love being a little part of that. All of my Broadway producing has always been done with my partner, Kristin Caskey. She and I have done this together for so whenever I'm saying I, please hear we. You know, a Broadway musical is a singular event in American and world culture, and it impacts people's lives, and it's exciting and beautiful and surprising.

And it's, you know, it's like going to the Olympics. The stakes are part of the endeavor when you're in Broadway. You cannot, you cannot dismiss, you can't pretend there's no stakes. The stakes have ever increased. If you think about what the stakes were for the first time we worked together with Millie, to what the stakes are now for becoming Nancy or, you know, even Plaza Suite, which is a play. What do you see? How do you see the future of that? And do you just see it going continually up, up, up, or is there something that, in your opinion, we need to do to start pulling in those reins?

[35:12] Mike Isaacson: Well, you know, that is the question for all of us right now that we're gonna have to find out. You and I and Kristen stood in the lobby of the La Jolla Playhouse in, I guess, 1999, and Jimmy Sr. is like, well, what do you want? You want the marquee? You want the palace, maybe? You know, like pick your theater. It was a whole different time. What has happened, and it's a whole different four-hour lecture I have, is but musicals have now grabbed a place in popular culture that is even bigger than what everybody calls the golden age. The economic stakes grew because more people were buying tickets, and you and I both know the people, the men and women who were part of building this industry artistically, business-wise, you know, nobody could have predicted even 10 years ago, something like Hamilton.

Like on a success financial, cultural level that, you know, that no one could have conceived of that. The question is, it's sort of is there a middle between that and something like the Muni, where we find the ticket price and the accessibility where people are coming to it more regularly, is the question that coming out of the pandemic, we're going to have to answer.

[36:46] Hal Luftig: The short-term question is economically will people have the resources to pay some level of ticket price? We're going to have something that I think people will desire. Can we find a way for more people to afford that and make our numbers work because it is an expensive environment to work in? That is the tough question that we're going to find out pretty quickly. As we come back, there is going to be a greater than ever concern about the budgetary elements. Yet we're not going to want that to dictate the art. You know, you can't have the tail wagging the dog. How do you see that merge of sort of reduced costs by an audience that may need, you know, incentive, you know, reduced ticket prices, things like that, not only to get them to feel safe coming back in the theater, but to, because so many people have been out of work and have lost a lot of income, and they may not be able to afford the $200 ticket?

[38:09] Mike Isaacson: I think the onus is going to be for a period on the artists and the creative teams to be wildly inventive with, you know, for lack of a better word, less resources. I mean, we're going to have to rely on, return to, celebrate the core, those core fundamentals of theater and musicals for a while to bring people back. We're going to need really well-written, interesting stories. We're going to need great music. We're going to need very inventive direction. You know, you and I and everybody listening both knows, both know, you know, everybody knows, Chorus Line was a line on the stage and eight mirrors. You know, it's, you know, it's not my show. I love Come From Away. I don't know, what is it, 10 chairs? I don't know. You know, it can be done quite beautifully and successfully. And in the just talking in the commercial theater, in order for us to gather investors and gather the resources, we're probably going to have to demonstrate that for a while.

[39:46] Hal Luftig: You and I both know, we've both been through this enough individually, collectively. I truly believe this isn't the producer calling, this is talking, it's the whatever artist in me. Every time I've worked with a director or choreographer or designer and said, we don't have that, you're gonna have to solution is creative, inventive, and arguably better than the first idea. Like that is what we do. We are a community and people of doers of accepting it and getting it done, and we just have to go into a period where until we understand where the audience is and what they're willing to pay, we're going to have to rely on that.

[40:40] Mike Isaacson: Completely agree. Although I did have Dory Bernstein as a guest earlier, and we were commiserating about having that philosophy, and I think that philosophy that you just said about creating, finding creative and maybe less expensive ways is 150% true. But we couldn't help but laugh. Where was that philosophy with the elevator and party bike? How did that happen?

[41:11] Hal Luftig: No, you're right.

[41:12] Mike Isaacson: We didn't, and you know, we subsequently learned, and you know, certainly the whole team did, Jerry, you know, in subsequent productions without it, they were fine and spectacular. So, you know, and I think, but that goes to what we were talking about earlier, and I think this extends to producers along with artists. You have to have a career where you can learn and grow. I always tell interns and young people when I'm talking to them, I've learned nothing from success, whatever you want to call success. It's failure where you really learn in this business, and you learn how to get yourself back up and keep going and believing in yourself. That's the foremost. But then what is the lesson? And that lesson, you know, you go back to the elevator and certain things we have is I now know when I sit in a Broadway production meeting to look at everything a different way.

If a designer is saying this moves here, to think circular around it, go, okay, that moving there means how to ask the question, how many crew guys? And how does that block the seats? And all of those questions that have those impacts to talk about. We didn't know to ask that question because it was presented as one idea, not the ramifications of those ideas.

[42:44] Mike Isaacson: And that's what I've I feel like I've learned in time. That was certainly integral to the Fun Home experience, going from Pristinium at the Public to, well, with the lab, which is a whole different idea, then proscenium the Public in the rounded circle in the square, and then back to proscenium for the national tour, and then London was its own idea. But each time we knew how to sit in the meetings and ask the pertinent artistic and budgetary questions to really understand the impact of the choices the designers of the artists had made.

[43:45] Mike Isaacson: Created and what is that impact on the running crew and that, which isn't you're saying no, but it's understanding deeper. You know, clearly, you know, we've not made a secret that you and I and Kristen are working together on developing a new musical called Becoming Nancy. I've never asked you this. What made you personally want to become part of the producing team? And what I guess what attracted you to the story that made you then want to join the team?

[44:17] Mike Isaacson: I think you know, it began with you know that breakfast the three of us had with Jerry, and we heard that special thing you really hear. You rarely hear somebody inspired in a way that goes beyond a job or a show or something. There was something very powerful as he talked about the story and why it mattered and how truly you could begin to see him envisioning something, which that spark is everything. I think when you're beginning the creation of the show, you hear that thing that sort of I have to make this happen. And you heard that. When I read the book, I was just knocked over by the original voice of David, our leading character. I just thought it was theatrical and fresh, and I turned the page and I cared about him, and there was an honesty and just a point of view that I thought this would be really exciting to hear this voice on stage in a musical.

[45:23] Mike Isaacson: I want to just back up for a second. When I read the book, there were parts in the novel that clearly are not on stage. And I wondered when I was reading it like, wow, that's like a little harsh. How do we, you know, is are we going too far with you know David's story and some of the horrible things he had to endure? Did that ever occur to you when you were reading the novel itself like wow that's just way too harsh? It did in the sense that my memory of those things that were harsh involved a lot of people in a physical environment that didn't kind of make sense within the confines of honestly a stage and then a musical. I don't know about you but sometimes when you're reading a script or a book pondering you know does it become the source material you sort of sort of get a sense of oh this would be better served as a film that was my reaction to some of those things that David goes to in the book I'm like these are film concepts.

What's also fascinating about your question or observation is that you know we're in a period of it's a period of discovery of what an audience will accept in a musical. I'm a big believer now you can't do a musical now without a dramatic soil. I mean I've worked on a show with incredibly talented people that was an essence of musical comedy and you could feel as much as the audience was enjoying it something was missing like it didn't feel like a meal it didn't feel robust.

[46:58] Mike Isaacson: I don't believe right now any successful musical I mean truly successful musical can exist without it is just sort of my opinion. I mean I'm always if you actually look at how really deeply dramatic and challenging the story is of The Lion King it's unbelievable. You know it's basically Hamlet. And we're bringing in the kids and they understand it. Those things don't scare me at all. It scares me more like, oh, is this a souffle? Is it just a stuffle? Is it just dessert? I've seen you in action actually talking about what you just said to the creative team, to the director. And I'm always amazed by how articulate you and sensitive you are to both sides of that of not making it too heavy, but not you know, making it so light that you know people are just disinterested.

But just that right balance that they can accept what they're watching on stage because it is entertaining and it is fun and it's cleverly written in stage, but yet it gives them something to think about. You are one of the best people I know that can actually discuss those things with the creative team.

[48:15] Mike Isaacson: In that vein, when do you feel most creative or artistic? What really gets me going, I love to be in the back of the room and watching really talented people have everything they need, and them in the zone of really creating exciting work. That moment when it is most communal, most collaborative, most the accomplishment of so many, and it's all in unison. It is all that is really exciting in the Muni world, it's this incredible moment where you know it's a 12-day rehearsal process, and seven days in we do, you know, essentially our designer run. So everyone's sort of racing this thing, but that is a moment where interestingly enough, everybody in the cast, a lot of the companies actually sees their show for the first time, and it's so powerful, and it's so beautiful because you get this, you see this, you feel this transfer of like anxiety and fear and being overwhelmed to I got this. They're confident they see it. I mean, there's still work to be done, it's not that, but they understand why we've all done this, and it's really really beautiful to me.

[49:34] Hal Luftig: You know, Mike, I'm hoping that part of our listenership is is people who are interested in producing or want to know more about producing. So this is gonna be a little weird question to ask someone who has been my producing partner. But in your opinion, what makes a good producing partner?

[49:55] Mike Isaacson: I think what makes a good producing partner is an ability to truly listen, ability to be brutally honest in the kindest way possible, the ability to understand that within a partnership, different people have different strengths that they can bring to the table, and in a development of a show, you're gonna need that strength. It's important that you work with people in that partnership that you can very clearly together privately understand at the beginning of the journey what your artistic hopes are, what you see the show as so you're all unified in that, even though as you go down the road, that will change. But I think it's important for everyone you're collaborating with and leading and guiding that they see that you're all you all have a united vision and see what you hope is coming along because that gives them strength.

[51:02] Hal Luftig: Yeah, that is so perfectly said, and it's something I hadn't even really given much thought to, but you're absolutely right. If the rest of the team sees the producing team as a whole, you know, almost like children, you know how they pick up, you know, they get daddy to say yes and mommy says no, you know, that kind of thing. You know, there's been instances where, you know, creative teams have sort of, or actors have done that. And I watched, you know, you in particular as a partner make sure that as a producing team, we stand as one. And I that was perfectly said, Mike, thank you.

[51:41] Hal Luftig: Um, well, you know, as they say, all good things must come to an end, and this is true of this program as well. But before you go, wait, you're not off the hook yet. What is your favorite musical?

[51:55] Mike Isaacson: Sunday in the Park with George.

[51:58] Hal Luftig: Wonderful. Man after my own heart. Uh, number two, what is the wackiest moment you've ever experienced in the theater?

[52:07] Mike Isaacson: Oh, jeez. I always get that response. It doesn't, it could be funny, silly, something you observed. Realizing three days into my second season at the Muni that the sound designer on his own volition had gone and changed the national anthem that the Muni audience had been listening to for 97 years and didn't tell anybody.

[52:40] Hal Luftig: What did he do?

[52:42] Mike Isaacson: It's such a great story. On the first show of the season, I have to go out and do the curtain speech. Welcome everybody back. And this is a great tradition. It's terrifying talking to 10,000 people, and I do it and I run out. So I'm so focused backstage, I'm not listening. So, like three days in the show, I had a member of the staff come up and scream at me for how dare you change the national anthem. This is Benedict, who do you think you are? Blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. I mean, screaming at me. And then someone else comes up next and screams, and I was like, can we? And I'm thinking they're just not hearing right. And I go over to the rehearsal platform, and there's an actor who'd been a Muni kid in a teen who was there and a Muni staff member are there, and I was like, you guys, is the national anthem any different? They're like, Oh, yeah, it's terrible, it's awful. And I found out that it was really slow. So 10,000 people very politely were singing the national anthem.

[53:48] Hal Luftig: Uh-huh.

[53:51] Mike Isaacson: Like, and everyone had thought that I had done this. And they were all boiling and polite about it, where they confronted me. And I finally called this, I was like, what is happening? And I called the sound as that. I'm like, he's like, Yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. You know, I'm surprised somebody in the audience didn't just scream out, pick it up.

[54:12] Hal Luftig: No.

[54:13] Mike Isaacson: Five, six, seven, eight.

[54:15] Hal Luftig: Yeah.

[54:16] Mike Isaacson: So, okay, so here's the third and final question. So the lesson you learned from that wacky moment was the lesson I learned is when you are the leader or perceived as the leader, people don't want to. Their instinct is not to tell you the hard bad truth. And you have to set an environment where I'm not the last person you come to with the bad news. I need to be the first to help fix and make things better. And then I learned as a leader is you, and it's so hard because you've been there. It's a tough job, and you can get frustrated and it's long hours and that. But you have to make sure everybody feels comfortable just walking in your door and saying, I gotta talk. And they can't be afraid of you, and they can't feel like you're not gonna listen. And that is a lesson that where we're currently in needs to be heard more and more.

[55:19] Hal Luftig: Yeah. You know, that you have to be able to speak and not be afraid of it.

[55:25] Mike Isaacson: So that you know, it couldn't be more timely. Mike Isaacson, I can't thank you enough for partaking in this podcast, for being a great friend, and most importantly, for being such a wonderful producer.

[55:43] Mike Isaacson: Thank you so much. You're amazing.

[55:45] Hal Luftig: All right, love you.

[55:46] Mike Isaacson: Dr. Stone.

[55:50] Hal Luftig: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Broadway Biz. If you have any questions about today's episode or the business of Broadway in general, let me know on Instagram at Broadway Biz Podcast or via email at Broadway Biz at HalLuftig.com. Be sure to follow me at Broadway Biz Podcast for updates on everything Broadway Biz, the business of Broadway. Broadway Biz is part of the Broadway Podcast Network. Huge thanks to Dory Berenstein, Alan Seals, and Brittany Bigelow. This has been produced by Dylan Marie Parent and Kevin Connor and edited by Derek Gunther. Our fabulous theme music is by Nell Benjamin and Lawrence O'Keefe. To learn more about Broadway Biz, visit BPN.fm slash BroadwayBiz.