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[0:00] David Armstrong: Welcome to another episode of Broadway Nation, the podcast that tells the remarkable story of the Broadway musical with a special emphasis on the immigrant, Jewish, queer, and black artist who invented it. I'm David Armstrong, and this episode is the second part of my conversation with author Ron Fassler, whose latest book is titled The Show Goes On, Broadway Hirings, Firings, and Replacements. If you missed the first part of our conversation, you may want to pick up with that before starting on this one. As always, I need to acknowledge the many generous patrons of Broadway Nation, whose support makes it possible for me to put out this podcast on a weekly basis. With a special shout-out today to patron Carl Baldasso.

If you would like to help support the work of Broadway Nation, please listen for the information at the end of the episode about how you, too, can become a patron. Today, as we pick up our conversation, Ron shares with us the story of the rocky road to Broadway for what would become the Tony Award-winning best musical, Kiss of the Spider Woman. Here we go. Another show that had very similar trials and tribulations and big cast changes that ultimately made the show work was Kiss of the Spider Woman.

[1:20] Ron Fassler: Yes, which I go into in detail as well. That had a disastrous first production that was done at Purchase, Purchase College. I remember going up there to see it. That was my alma mater. I went to school there. I long graduated. Al Prince was the director and it was, of course, it was Kander and Ebb and Terrence McNally. That was all the same. But after that production, which was badly reviewed by Frank Rich of the New York Times. It wasn't good. I mean, I remember sitting there just being so disappointed and there was just no energy in the theater at all for some reason. But the thing was, you know, Frank Rich was not invited. He went up on his own. The critics weren't supposed to be there.

[2:00] David Armstrong: No. And in fact, when they caught wind he was coming, Fred Ebb, a few of them went to the Times and said, please stop him. They're like, well, he bought his own ticket and, you know, he killed the show. But in his review, and I quote this in the book, he actually said the producers of this show, they would do very well to hire someone like Chita Rivera to play the Spider Woman, which of course is what happened. It went to Canada and London prior to Broadway. And by the time it came back to Broadway, it turned the show that Frank Rich hated into a big hit that won the Tony for Best Musical. Just absolutely amazing. That's the nature of a guy like Al Prince and Kander and Ebb and Terrence McNally listening. In fact, my next book is going to be about these kinds of experiences where shows are disasters out of town. And by the time they come to New York, they've been fixed. They figured it out.

[3:00] Ron Fassler: They listen to the criticism. There's nothing worse than going, they don't know what they're talking about. We're great. That's the kiss of death. But certain shows out of town were badly reviewed and the creative teams took it to heart, fixed what needed to be fixed. Doesn't happen all the time. Sometimes it just can't. You run out of time, you run out of money, but sometimes it happens. The book is also going to conflate that with shows that are absolute disasters. So it's going to be a book about failure and success on Broadway, telling stories I don't think that it ever told.

[3:30] David Armstrong: The only thing I would add to that is I think the really smart creators listen to the audience more than anything else. Not literally what the audience says, but what the audience does when they're in the room.

[3:40] Ron Fassler: Right. But sometimes you get a writer's block. There's a famous story. Neil Simon wrote The Odd Couple, which we know is one of his greatest hits and a beautifully constructed play. But it had a first act that worked like gangbusters, a second act that had people just screaming. And in those days, there used to be three act comedies. And the third act, it fell off a ledge. It couldn't sustain the momentum and it died. They were kind of at a loss and they really didn't know what to do. But while in Boston, they had a conversation, Mike Nichols was the director of that one, with Elliot Norton, who was a critic, but also a guy who would lend a helping hand from time to time. They would say, Elliot, you see everything out of town.

What can we do? And he said, I don't have a solution for you guys. He said, but I do know I really miss those Pigeon Sisters. Neil Simon says a light bulb went off over his head when he said that. And I realized if I bring them back, I can figure out a way. And that was the closure of the play needed. And that's how the play became a success.

[4:40] David Armstrong: That's a great story.

[4:41] Ron Fassler: Yeah, really great story. Yeah. You also talk about, which I think is I find to be fascinating. I'm not sure how many other people share my obsession, but this series of ill-fated revivals of Pal Joey. Talk about a show that has had the worst luck in the world.

[5:00] Ron Fassler: Yeah. Every single time it's tried. When it opened on Broadway in 1940, Pal Joey was ahead of its time and the critics couldn't really wrap their minds around this anti-hero. The guy was what they used to call in the old days, a heel. He was a rotten guy. Even with Gene Kelly and his charm and his talent playing it. Gene Kelly played the part and that was his last appearance on Broadway. He was snapped up by MGM right after that. He returned to Broadway to direct Flower Drum Song in the late 50s, but he never returned as an actor. I talk a little bit about the actors who go away and never come back in the book. Brando, one of them. But the thing is, Pal Joey is just a very difficult music to get right.

It's incredibly hard to cast. When Julie Stein saw it in stock about 10 or 11 years after it first went on Broadway, he was like, I think it's working now because this guy, Harold Lang, who was a great Broadway dancer, created the role of Bill and Kiss McKay. And apparently so charismatic and just so sex on a stick from what everybody ever, everybody I've known who ever worked with him just said, you could not take your eyes off of him.

[6:00] David Armstrong: Yeah. So they brought him to Broadway. They even brought back Vivian Siegel, who was the woman who had created the role of Vera in the original. And I think it was about 12 years later. And Helen Gallagher. And Helen Gallagher, who won the Tony Award. It ran for a little longer than the original Pal Joey. They made an album out of it because there weren't albums back in 1940. You'd think that was it. Wait, now Pal Joey's fixed. Well, every time they tried to bring it back since it's been a disaster. They fired the Joey. The two subsequent pro revivals, one in 76 and one, I think in 2007, they both had to fire the Joey's. There was a recent one at Encores in New York where they rewrote the entire book.

That was just a disaster. Poor Pal Joey. But again, you know, casting really is so key. There are certain Broadway shows that gosh, if they only had the right, like for instance, I'll give you one of my favorites. When I was a kid, I saw a musical called Minnie's Boys and it was about the Marx Brothers and their mother, who was the stage mother of all time. And they adored her. She was a really amazing woman. If you read about Minnie Marx and I recently read Harpo Marx's autobiography, which came out in 1960. I just got around to it. It's called Harpo Speaks. Take it out of the library. It's one of the best autobiographies I've ever read. Although Harpo really didn't write it. Harpo was a literate.

Harpo dropped out of school in the second grade. He tells the story to another writer who writes it all down. But Harpo was a brilliant guy. He wasn't educated, but he was brilliant. His best friends in show business were all the most erudite and smartest talents that were known to man. He was part of the Algonquin Roundtable. And even though you think, well, Harpo didn't talk much, he didn't have to. He listened and absorbed and everybody adored him. He was an amazing person.

[7:00] David Armstrong: Anyway, Minnie's Boys was this musical in 1970 that was not good, but mainly because they miscast Mama Minnie. They put Shelly Winters in the part who was not a singer and really didn't know where the jokes were. It was just a disaster. And had they put Martha Ray in it or Charlotte Ray or anybody named Ray. I mean, there were so many women, Kay Ballard. There were so many women who could have played it and might have turned it around.

[7:30] Ron Fassler: Didn't they write it for Molly Picon?

[7:31] David Armstrong: That I don't know.

[7:33] Ron Fassler: I think she was supposed to play it originally, which of course would have been sensational.

[7:37] David Armstrong: I think so. Although, you know, maybe they didn't want to put it on the back of Molly Picon or dub it a Jewish musical because, although, my God, the Marx Brothers, I mean, you know, they pushed it on.

[7:45] Ron Fassler: Exactly. And if you talk to Lou Stadlin, who played Groucho in that show, he'll tell you some Shelly Winters stories because he was there on stage with her eight times a week. It was terrible.

[7:55] David Armstrong: I love that album. It's a very enjoyable record, however.

[7:58] Ron Fassler: It is.

[8:00] David Armstrong: Even with Shelly Winters is okay on the album.

[8:03] Ron Fassler: Just think, a few more months and we might have played The Palace.

[8:07] David Armstrong: Yeah. And mom had to louse it up.

[8:10] Ron Fassler: Of all the dirty, rotten luck.

[8:14] David Armstrong: Is there any other kind?

[8:17] Ron Fassler: Where was I when they passed out brains?

[8:21] David Armstrong: Right at the head of the line.

[8:25] Ron Fassler: Where was I when they passed out talent?

[8:29] David Armstrong: Right up front, get mine.

[8:33] Ron Fassler: The way they came to the line where they handed up luck.

[8:37] David Armstrong: Where was your smart, clever friend?

[8:41] Ron Fassler: Back showing off his talent and brains.

[8:46] David Armstrong: To the lungs lining up at the edge.

[8:50] Ron Fassler: And it's funny, you know, I see I'm a theater critic now and I go to see every Broadway and off Broadway show I can manage to squeeze in. I can remember things from Minnie's Boys from when I was 13 years old. And I can't remember things I saw two weeks ago. I can tell you a number of Broadway shows by name that are so forgettable and disposable. I couldn't even tell you what happened in it. I couldn't even sit here and sort of, oh, yeah, it was. Yeah, it's like disposable. It's like Chinese food. You know, you come out and two hours later you're hungry again. But there was something memorable about the way shows were constructed in those old days. Something to be learned from it. Again, back to Charles Strauss, you know, passing.

You know, he really is at the tail end of the golden age of Broadway. He was 96. He is survived by his partner, Lee Adams, who is 100 going on 101 doing well. Somebody told me today I spoke to Lee last week. He's doing well. And then the great John Kander at 98. That's it. Anything pre like 1965 Broadway, every one of those composer lyricists are gone now.

[9:50] David Armstrong: Tell us about Sheila Smith, because that's an amazing story.

[9:53] Ron Fassler: That's an amazing story in the book. Sheila Smith was another one of these women, as we discussed, who was just an understudies understudy, although she didn't like the word understudy. She was a standby. Now, for your listeners, the real difference between that, it's often differentiated that the understudy is somebody in the show playing another part, and they're also covering for a lead. So the standby is not in the show. And in the old days, we just call up the theater and just go, is that the woman on tonight? No, you can go home. That's the famous Elaine Stritch story. Or you don't have to come in at all.

[10:30] Ron Fassler: Yeah, exactly. Nowadays, they kind of make you sit in the theater for, you know, we're paying you. You should be here. And you can't go home at intermission because somebody can always get sick during the second act. But Sheila Smith was really somebody who, again, only created a part or two in a Broadway musical for the rest of her career. And she was a standby par excellence. She was just phenomenal. And the role she stood by for, she stood by for both Angela Lansbury and Bea Arthur in Maine. She stood by for so many great women. She even stood by for Elaine Stritch in Company. She also was cast in Follies, but mainly because she was going to understudy Alexis Smith and Yvonne DiCarlo, Phyllis and Carlotta.

But she was only going to stand by and not be in the show. And one day, Michael Bennett and Hal Prince were plotting out who's that woman. And Bennett said, I need another really strong woman here. And there wasn't anybody in the chorus to pull. And they said, well, we've got Sheila Smith. She's covering. Why don't we have her be in the show? He said, well, you can't ask Sheila Smith to be in one number. He said, well, we'll create a part for her. Hal said to Sheila, you will have a line that will get a laugh. I guarantee it. And if you listen to the album of Follies, oh, no, it's not on the actual album. But you've heard it in subsequent Follies albums. When somebody says, this number winded me when I was 19, that was Sheila Smith. And she got a laugh on it. But Sheila ended up being in the Who's That Woman number and covering and going on a great deal for Yvonne.

[12:00] Ron Fassler: Well, she had taken the job at Follies after she had been covering in Company. And the two shows are running simultaneous. They are running around the corner from each other on Broadway. The Alvin and Alvin Neil Simon was where Company was playing on 52nd Street. And on 51st Street was the Winter Garden where Follies was playing. So one day, it's a Friday. She had gotten the heads up that Yvonne was taking the whole weekend off. So no Friday, Saturday or Sunday. So she was not going to be on. And that was fine. Sheila was ready to go on saying, I'm still here. She gets a call from the stage manager of Company. Sheila, we're in a bit of a bind here. Jane Russell is now playing Joanne. She's not well.

Her understudy has taken a part in a movie. She's not here. This is kind of crazy that they didn't have another standby. But they did. They just figured Jane Russell wouldn't get sick. I mean, I guess they don't do this anymore. But this is the circumstance. They said, well, could you go on for, you know, Joanne tonight? Now, mind you, she hadn't done Company in like six months. It's a big ask. She would have done it, trooper that she was. Sheila Smith would have done it. But she said, I can't. I'm going on for Yvonne tonight. Well, isn't there anybody else in Follies to go on for Yvonne? No, there is nobody. It's a tricky song. Yvonne can't even get the lyrics right half the time. And mind you, Al Prince was the producer and director of both shows.

He was consulted. Bennett was the choreographer of both shows. He was consulted. They just were praying, fingers crossed, Jane Russell would be OK. But in the meantime, let's make sure you got a wig. Let's make sure we can do this. So what happens? She's doing Follies. The curtain goes up at the same time on both shows. The phone rings backstage, and it's the stage manager of Company saying to the stage manager of Follies, can you get Sheila Smith over here as soon as possible? Jane Russell is running into the wings and vomiting. She's never going to get to Ladies Who Lunch, which is very late in the second act. Sheila does I'm Still Here, and basically that's all that Yvonne does.

[13:07] Ron Fassler: She raced out of the theater accompanied by two gentlemen. They ran over to Company. It was the intermission of Company. Follies had no intermission. And they put her on for the second act. She went on. That night, Sheila Smith made the history books. She sang, "I'm Still Here" in Follies and "The Ladies Who Lunch" in Company in the same night in two different Broadway musicals. Come on! What a story! And Sheila told me the story, 89 years old, living in assisted living, and she died two months after she told me the story. I got it in her own words, and I'm sorry she wasn't around to read the book. She would have loved it. She's a star. I mean, that is just an incredible story.

[13:48] David Armstrong: And one I had certainly never heard before. That's not one of those legendary stories out there. I want you to tell us the very similar but different story of Howard Keel, which is interesting because I wasn't even really aware of Howard Keel's Broadway work. We know him from the movies. We know him as this big MGM star. But of course, like almost all of them, they started on Broadway at some point, and he's a Rodgers and Hammerstein guy before he goes to Hollywood.

[14:10] Ron Fassler: Yeah, I didn't know this story. This was actually told to me by somebody because I was telling the story about somebody who had the opportunity to understudy in two different Broadway shows at the same time. They were covering in two shows at the same time. It was Iva Withers, who I mentioned earlier. She was covering for Laurie in Oklahoma and also Julie Jordan. Those shows played across the street from each other at the St. James and the Majestic. I mean, just the crazy times, right? Well, Howard Keel was in Los Angeles. He had never been in a play or a musical. He was a singer, and he stepped forward in some choral concert or other, and he boomed out with that voice. And somebody in Oscar Hammerstein's office saw him and made sure he met Oscar the next day as a potential guy to be either Curly in Oklahoma or Billy Bigelow in Carousel.

The next thing he knew, Oscar Hammerstein had him on a plane to New York, and when he got to the hotel, they said, you're to go tonight to see Carousel. And he went, oh, I thought I'm going to Oklahoma. There's been a change. He goes to see Carousel. The next day, he's on the stage of the Majestic Theater. He's with the guy who puts in the replacements. He's with Iva Withers, who is the other Julie Jordan, and he's doing Billy Bigelow. Never acted before, and they just fell in love with him. They thought, you can do this. He went on for John Raitt almost immediately because John Raitt got sick. And then they also had him cover Curly at the same time on this one particular day, and I tell this story much better in the book.

He went on one afternoon as Curly, and in the evening, he went on as Billy Bigelow. So he did the same thing Cheryl Smith did. I think there's a rule now you can't do this anymore. You can't be the understudy in two shows. You can be in two shows at the same time. You're well aware of Cynthia Nixon when she was in The Real Thing and Hurly Burly. They were both directed by Mike Nichols, and so they worked out a plan because one character leaves at the end of the first act, the other shows up in the second, and she was going back and forth. She was a teenager at the time. She went back and forth. There was another time that John Cullum did it. He was in August: Osage County, a replacement, and his character dies during the first act. And then he walked by himself to 42nd Street from 45th Street and did a whole play, a whole other play, and he did this. He did this for a few weeks when he was in his 70s.

[16:21] David Armstrong: Amazing. This is why I wrote the book. I just want these stories to be told and for people to have the proper respect for Broadway actors. You know, I go to the theater, if I'm lucky, a couple of nights a week. I'm still floored at the level of talent here. I really am. There's no place like it.

[16:34] ♪ Musical number ♪

[17:22] David Armstrong: A show that I have a real soft spot for because it was the first Broadway show I ever saw on Broadway, as opposed to the tours coming to Cincinnati where I grew up, which was Mack and Mabel.

[17:32] Ron Fassler: We have something in common because my first Broadway show was I Do! I Do!

[17:35] David Armstrong: Oh, there you go. Yeah. I saw Robert Preston. What amazed me, I had never heard before who was considered for those roles prior to Bernadette Peters and Robert Preston. It's hard to believe because those performances were so definitive and so successful and are emblazoned in my head. You talk about remembering things from years ago. I can remember so much about that show and those performances just jumping off the stage. And I know we were in the balcony because I didn't have any money. So we did not have the best seats, but I can viscerally feel those performances.

[18:08] ♪ Musical number ♪

[19:15] Ron Fassler: Bernadette Peters, when they turned that train car around and then she sang that reprise of "I Won't Send Roses," I see it. I can hear it. It was so moving. In a show that was not entirely successful by any means, even at the time you understood, it didn't quite work, but they worked. Those two performances were phenomenal.

[19:32] ♪ Musical number ♪

[20:15] David Armstrong: When you look at Bernadette Peters in the photographs from that show and all, you think, what were they thinking that they didn't just cast Bernadette Peters right off the top? She was perfect to play Mabel Norman, the perfect age, the perfect physicality, everything, the voice. But they had other ideas in mind. I tell the story in the book, the show was nicknamed Mack and Maybe for a time because they went through three women before they got to Bernadette. Preston was sought after for the show because he had a good relationship with David Merrick, but he turned it down and they were ready, ready to go with Jerry Orbach. And Jerry Orbach tells the story. He was on his way to sign this contract and Merrick called and said, Jerry, we just got a yes from Robert Preston and I hope you'll step aside because it's Robert Preston.

And Jerry Orbach was like, yeah, of course, of course. I understand completely, Mr. Merrick. He hung up the phone and he went, oh, it hurt. It really hurt. Now, fast forward, Mack and Mabel closes in three months. The next job that David Merrick taps Jerry Orbach for is 42nd Street. So he more than made it up to Jerry because Jerry stayed with that show for three years of employment, much better than three months of employment. But yeah, Mack and Mabel, I'm not surprised that you have the memories you have because not only are we so blessed that we have that cast album, can you imagine if they didn't make a cast recording? Because it makes you wonder, it's one of those albums that makes you go, how could this show not be a hit?

With these stars and this score, Anna Gower's champion staging, who, you know, really knew more about musical theater staging than almost anybody. In fact, you know, just the other day, there was a lot of activity on Facebook because it was John Simon, the Vicious Theater Critics 100th birthday. And people were like, well, he was the meanest guy that ever lived. But I quote in the book, what he said about Mack and Mabel. He said, you want to turn to your companion and say, Shh, genius at work. I mean, he got it on a whole other level that very few critics got. But I do envy your experience. I did not see Mack and Mabel.

[22:11] David Armstrong: Yeah, and I later have directed Mack and Mabel and it does not work. The book does not go with the score. The score is brilliant. The book is not supported. They don't work together. So you have the situation where writers are not on the same page, and that's a disaster for a show. As one person said to me, how do you do a romance when the height of their romance is he slips a napkin ring on her finger in a restaurant? They barely kiss in the show. They don't really tell the real story of Mabel Norman, which if they did, it's actually better. Mabel Norman was not this poor creature that Mack Sennett created. She actually became a director, a female director of silent films. I mean, somebody, if they can ever do it, needs to take that score and rewrite an entirely new book around it.

[22:51] Ron Fassler: Yeah, it can be done. Are you aware there are certain when we talk about firings? Do you know the Wonderful Town story?

[23:00] David Armstrong: I don't.

[23:00] Ron Fassler: The musical Wonderful Town was written by Betty Comden and Adolph Green, the lyrics, and the music was being written by Leroy Anderson. Leroy Anderson wrote the score, and the producers and the book writer, they all got together. They went, we really don't like this music, Leroy Anderson. Well, what are we going to do? We got Rosalind Russell. We got a theater. Betty and Adolph called their old friend Leonard Bernstein, and Leonard Bernstein wrote the score of Wonderful Town in a month to the existing lyrics. It's a fantastic score. That's an example of the composer being fired and replaced. Guys and Dolls, which is considered one of the greatest musicals, constructed musicals, was written with a book by a guy named Joe Swirling, who was a screenwriter.

Abe Burroughs was not in the picture. It was Frank Loesser writing the music and lyrics. They got the first versions, and they loved what Frank Loesser had done with the score, but it didn't match what Joe Swirling had written. It was a mismatch. They brought Abe Burroughs in, threw out the Joe Swirling book, and Abe Burroughs had to write a book based on that existing score.

[23:55] David Armstrong: Which is really challenging to do. It's backwards.

[23:58] Ron Fassler: It's almost impossible, and that he succeeded in ways even he couldn't believe. It's one of those times where you figure you've got that angel sitting on your shoulder, and he's whispering in your ear. It's The Muse, and he was able to produce what is generally considered one of the best-crafted books of any musical, but it was done ass-backwards.

[24:15] David Armstrong: Absolutely, which is what you'd have to pull off with Mack and Mabel. That would be challenging, but it'd be great if you could make that work.

[24:21] Ron Fassler: I mean, I'm really not for doing that. I mean, that's one of the reasons the Pal Joey that we mentioned earlier failed so miserably. You know, throwing out books. They did it on a clear day. They did it with Flower Drum Song. They're rarely successful. You know, Abe Burroughs is dead, basically. Where are you going to find the people to do this?

[24:37] David Armstrong: But you know, it's not uncommon. The Days of Wine and Roses recently that was on Broadway with a score by Adam Guettel. The book was by Craig Lucas, who had written Light in the Piazza with him. But John Logan was the original book writer of Days of Wine and Roses, and they parted ways. These things do happen.

[24:50] Ron Fassler: Another topic I found really interesting was you talk about replacement actors who, I think you say only in one hand you can count them, who got to play the role in the film version. They went into the Broadway show as a replacement, but then they get to play the part in the movie. One of them is Michele Lee, who did not originate Rosemary in How to Succeed. She came into the show when Bonnie Scott, the original star, got pregnant. And they just adored Michele Lee in the part. And when it came time to make the movie, she's the one they chose. Most recently, we had the movie of The Color Purple, which really came about because it was so successful. It was revived in London and on Broadway with Cynthia Erivo.

LaChanze, of course, who created the role in the original Color Purple on Broadway, she was far too old to play it by the time they were finally ready to do this movie two years ago. But Cynthia Erivo was certainly available. They didn't use her. They went and got Fantasia, Fantasia Barrino, who had been an American Idol star and who had replaced LaChanze in that first Broadway production. When LaChanze left, there were like one or two women who took over in that first Color Purple, and then they brought in Fantasia, who had never acted again, as we mentioned before, someone who'd never been in anything. And she got rave reviews. You should read these reviews she got. It was incredible.

[26:02] David Armstrong: John Lee Beatty, the scenic designer of Color Purple, said he had absolutely never seen a replacement of that caliber in his entire career. God is inside me and every...

[26:14] ♪ Musical number: "The Color Purple" — performed by Fantasia ♪

[28:49] Ron Fassler: The other person we've already discussed in other contexts is John Cullum, who's in the movie of 1776. He was offered it, and he didn't want to play it because it was a supporting part. The funny story is that about a year later, the role that he hoped to star in never materialized. He had basically been unemployed for a year, while 1776 was the biggest hit on Broadway. They came to him and went, well, we've got an opening, would you like to play it? He grabbed it. He was so good as Rutledge. I saw him play that part many times. 1776 was my obsession as a teenager. I saw it 12 times on Broadway. I saw John Cullum play it about eight times. He was so good that they used him in the movie, even though he was kind of too old for it.

The character he played, Edward Rutledge, at 26 years old, was the youngest man in Congress. Cullum was well into his 40s when he played it in the movie. The line is still there. He's the youngest man in Congress, but they put as much pancake makeup on him as they could. Nobody could sing Molasses Trump to slaves like him. Nobody. I saw him stop the show with it. At Wednesday matinees, I saw him stop the show with it. That is another rare case where they went for the replacement. And the other one you mentioned, there's a caveat involved, which is John Travolta.

[29:53] Yes.

[29:54] Ron Fassler: But he never played Danny Zuko on Broadway. John Travolta is famous for having gotten the gig of doing the first national tour of Grease. And this is before Welcome Back, Cotter. It's before anything. He was playing the role of Doody, which is kind of the nerd. When it came time to do the movie, he was already a big star because of Welcome Back, Cotter. And I think Saturday Night Fever. And Saturday Night Fever. It had already come out in 1977. He's not going to play Doody then. No way. And he got to play the role of Danny. And he also got to take the number Grease Lightning away from Jeff Conaway, who was very upset about that. It occurred to me as I was reading it that Jeff Conaway also should be on your list because he did play Kinnicky on Broadway.

[30:30] Yes, that's right.

[30:31] Ron Fassler: He actually played almost all the parts on Broadway. If you go look at his list on the IMDb, he played every single role in Grease at some point. The lovely story that Jerry Zaks, the director, told me, who, of course, started out as an actor. He got Grease to be on that national tour. And they said, do you want to see the show tonight on Broadway? He was like, of course. So he got standing room and he's standing in the back of the theater. He's like, I'm going to be in this show. I'm going to be in this show. And he was like so happy. He turned to the guy next to him and he goes, I'm going to be in this show. And the guy next to him said, yeah, me too. And it was talked about. So the two of them were there at the same time.

[31:02] That's great.

[31:03] Ron Fassler: But Judy Kaye, I think.

[31:04] Yeah.

[31:05] Ron Fassler: Speaking of Grease, you know, I also talk in the book about certain shows that became breeding grounds for new talent. Grease had so many famous people in it. It's quite a list. So did Rent. I mean, people who just went on to win Tony Awards. These are the shows you kind of paid your dues in. It's the same today. There are long running shows where amazing people are coming in and out of these shows and becoming famous later on. It's great that we have them. Great that there are places where you can learn and perfect your craft.

[31:31] Absolutely.

[31:32] Ron Fassler: I mean, Wicked is certainly one of those. It has absolutely been graduating some amazing people in and out of there. I'm sure Hamilton will be one of those as well.

[31:39] Yeah.

[31:40] Ron Fassler: No question about it. There's so much more we could cover. You end the book on a very personal note with your own stories of being a standby. You didn't let yourself off the hook here.

[31:47] Ron Fassler: As I was writing the book, it's structured, as you know, with different chapters on very specific points I want to get across. By the end of the book, I had these leftovers and I thought, oh, I can just sort of sign off with just the best stories that are hard to categorize. And I went, but I need one. I need a topper. I need to end the book on a great story. I didn't know what it was going to be. And one day, and I don't even remember how, I had the revelation, oh, my, I have my own firing story. And it's a doozy. And then I thought, oh, you can't end the book with your own story. I'm not famous as an actor. I mean, I can't put myself in the league of the Shirley MacLaine's and the Hugh Jackman's who I've been talking about through this whole book.

But then I thought, you know what? I've been a presence in the book because I've been an eyewitness to so many of the shows. I've been going to the theater since I was 12 years old, 55 years of theater going, committed theater going. I offer some opinions through the book. I say in my introduction, I cannot be dry and detached from this stuff. I'm passionate about it. You're going to get, you know, a lot of me in here. I think I thread it nicely. And I thought, well, by the end of the book, I think people will want to hear my story. I don't think they're going to think it's an overreach.

[32:55] Thank you, because, yes, a lot of people have said the way you end the book is just perfect. I'm really not going to give it away on the podcast. It's quite a story, but it just has to do with going on as an understudy, it not turning out well for me. It's kind of a little bit of a Nancy Drew mystery. It has a few turns to it, which is really interesting.

[33:12] Yeah.

[33:13] Ron Fassler: It takes 20 years, but I do find out what happened. And the book ends on a very sweet note. I tell you, it was just the thrill of my life. It took two and a half years to write the book. I wrote almost every day. I interviewed 100 people and I loved researching it. I loved finding these gorgeous plums that I was picking out of pies. Somebody would casually mention something. I'd be like, well, that's a story I don't know. Let me go pursue that. Many, many hours at the Lincoln Center Library here in New York. But as you can see behind me, well, actually, your listeners aren't seeing this, but I've got a huge reference library in my own apartment. There is sometimes nothing better than opening up a crusty old book and using the index.

But there's some stuff that's written down that you've got to go find. I love the research process. I'm a kid in a candy store when I'm in a library. I always love to quote my dear friend, Winnie Holtzman, the author of the musical Wicked, who adapted it from Greg McGuire's book. She says, I love research because it's not writing, because, you know, if you're afraid of the blank page, you can spend a lot of time doing your research. And, you know, it's not writing. But when push comes to shove, I love getting in front of the computer. Even today, finding out yesterday that Charles Strauss died, I spent the time putting together a column and I posted it this morning, a very in-depth column about some great, great stories about Charles.

Not an overview of his entire life that you get in an op-ed, but just a tribute to him by way of how he contributed to the Broadway musical, very specifically with the shows that he wrote. You know, he wrote 30 shows, 13 of which were Broadway. But he wrote 30 musicals. He also composed for the cinema. He composed for television. He wrote the theme song to All in the Family. I mean, this was one prolific guy. And he's going to be really missed. He really wrote some of the great Broadway show tunes. Put on a happy face. It will always be one of my favorite show tunes of all time. Just a tremendous talent.

[35:00] Yeah, that whole score is one of my favorites. And I'm a big fan of Applause. I think it's underappreciated.

[35:04] Ron Fassler: Well, I can give you and your listeners a little. I'm not going to mention who's doing it, but a very famous movie maker who loves to dabble in theater has written an entirely new book for Applause. That goes back to what we were talking about earlier. And he's gotten the permission from all the estates. He hopes to get that on Broadway, which would be great because let's get that score up and running again and update the book. He's having it absolutely take place now. Today.

[35:25] Oh, interesting.

[35:26] Ron Fassler: Well, that'll be fascinating to see how that'll work. Ron Fassler, thank you so much for joining us today on Broadway Nation to tell us about The Show Goes On, Broadway Hirings, Firings, and Replacements.

[35:37] Not available at Amazon.

[35:39] Ron Fassler: You just have to go to my website. So you can just Google Ron Fassler and Show Goes On or just Google Show Goes On or just go to my website, which is RonFassler.org and you can buy the book. And it's been selling really well. People love it. And I think it would be a needed part of any Broadway fan's library.

[35:55] Essential, essential to your library.

[35:57] Ron Fassler: Indispensable.

[35:58] There you go.

[35:59] David Armstrong: Thank you so much, Ron.

[36:00] Ron Fassler: Thank you, David. Appreciate it.

[36:03] ♪ Musical number: "Where Was I?" — performed by Unknown performer ♪

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