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[0:06] Mike Abrams: Welcome to The Wrong Cat Died, the podcast breakdown, the Cast Astrophy. I'm your host Mike Abrams, and today we have another great guest. Today's guest is a fellow Broadway Podcast Network host for the show Broadway Nation and also recently published a book titled Broadway Nation. I'm very excited because there is a lot of Cats history discussed in this book, and we're gonna dig into it. So welcome, David Armstrong, and thank you for joining me.

[0:36] David Armstrong: Thank you. It's a great pleasure to be here. So fun to be on this podcast, which I've listened to on a number of occasions, especially when you have people that I know as guests, so that's always fun. Even just the other day I listened to the Kim Chriswell episode who I went to college with. So that was fun to hear Kim.

[0:52] Mike Abrams: Okay, yeah. It's so fun. I mean, I think some people we've talked about this on this show before because I've had a few other BPN hosts. And during the pandemic and early on, we did a lot of these like happy hours and just like chatting on virtual. We used to do monthly meetings, and I got to know and learn about so many shows because of that. And so I've been very familiar with your show, the podcast version of it. And I was really excited when I heard that you were probably not turning the podcast into a book, but leaning on some of that and making it into a book.

[1:22] David Armstrong: Absolutely. It's definitely an evolution of the work that I've done. It really is a the podcast itself was an evolution of the course that I teach at the University of Washington. So I teach a course on the history of the Broadway musical since about 2019. I've taught that course. And the podcast was an outgrowth of that, sort of a popular public, general public version of what I teach in the course. And then the book has then been an outgrowth of that same course related and picking up on so much of what I've been able to do with the podcast as well, and people that I've talked to, all of that fed into the book. Having the opportunity to meet so many authors of other books about the history of Broadway, usually with specific, you know, either about Noel Coward or the very specific elements of the Broadway musical history, that all has, you know, fed down into the book as well.

[2:22] Mike Abrams: Yeah. So when you decided to tackle this book, was it because it was a, hey, we I've, you know, class to podcast, and now there's all this stuff there, or was this always a passion project of being able like wanting to turn this into a book at some point?

[2:36] David Armstrong: I always had the idea that it was great subject matter for a book. And this particular approach, how immigrant Jewish, queer, and black artists invented the Broadway musical, was a very specific lens to view the history of the Broadway musical through and to center in that story. But then I was really thrilled that a publisher, my publisher Dom O'Hanlon from Bloomsbury Publishing, which is Methuen Drama, is an imprint of Bloomsbury. And that's a publisher that anybody who has theater books probably has some books, especially plays. They've published for, you know, I don't actually don't know when they started. I think like a century ago. They've been around as a major publisher of drama and books about theater.

So he called me, approached me to ask if I would be interested in turning the idea of the course and the idea of the podcast into a book, which was thrilling. I was so grateful to have that. I thought about maybe I'll make a book and I'll self-publish it and all that kind of stuff. But to have it happen this way with a, you know, such a great publishing company was really fantastic.

[3:52] Mike Abrams: That's amazing. Um it sounds like required reading for your course soon here for all the college.

[3:56] David Armstrong: Well, and yes, we haven't gotten to it. I don't teach again till spring quarter. So this will be the first time that the book exists at the time that I'm taking the course. So I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to do that yet, how to weave it in.

[4:08] Mike Abrams: Um yeah, I love the angle, and I am I was I you know, I've only got to go through some of it. You know, we chatted about this, so I'm excited to read the whole thing, but I definitely got to read a bunch of snippets about it because I was able to put my way through to a lot of the cat stuff. And there were some things I did not know. I feel like at this point, I'm surprised when I don't know something about Cats. Um, but there were a couple of things I was really interested in. So I'd love to hear a little bit from you about the parts that you tackled specifically that involved Cats. Um, you know, with the mega musicals and kind of that era of time and how you weaved it into the broader part of your book.

[4:42] David Armstrong: Absolutely. It was really interesting because Cats actually crosses over into several sort of really important themes, important, I wouldn't call them eras, although they're parts of eras, but kinds of musicals in the, especially in the modern history of the Broadway musical, what I call the modern era of the Broadway musical. So first and foremost is I do a big section on concept musicals, on what is a concept musical. Is there such a thing as a concept musical? Some people will dispute, don't particularly like that particular term, although I think it's very useful to describe what it is. And that's something that starts largely with Harold Prince and Stephen Sondheim. Some people I can hear them now in the background going, but what about Love Life?

And what about, yes, there were things that came before it that were very much like a concept musical or were early one-off iterations of what would become the concept musical. And in fact, probably more strongly than something like Love Life is to go back to the thematic reviews of the 1930s, which you know, Irving Berlin and all many writers worked on, which were basically we're gonna take an idea and create a whole show around it. Probably the one I think is most fascinating is called As Thousands Cheer, which took the idea of a newspaper. We're going to do a review based on a daily newspaper, and every number is going to reflect a segment of the newspaper. So there'll be like the head, the open the front page, there'll be the marriage section, the now marriage announcements, there'll be the weather report, there'll be yeah, and especially a lot of topical things that were going on.

So that was a very famous show that used a reward a review format to talk to sort of illustrate this concept to bring this concept to the stage. And that is remarkably similar to what's happening then in the 1970s with shows like Cats, like well, ultimately with Cats, but before that, with Company, with A Chorus Line, and A Chorus Line is a key element in the history of Cats, which I don't think has often been talked about or sort of noticed.

[6:58] Mike Abrams: Yeah. That was actually the part that I dug really deep into in your book because I, you know, I've obviously heard there's parallels to it because there's a lot of like choice, choice, choice, and then someone gets picked. And so there is the theme is kind of similar, but that your book was really the first time I had, and maybe someone had mentioned to me in the past, but I had really seen that like there is a lot of how that was a big part of what made, you know, the beginning of Cats.

[7:26] David Armstrong: Yeah, I mean, some people might say Cats is a ripoff of A Chorus Line. I don't know that I go that far, but it's remarkably similar. I think it is sort of a doppelganger of A Chorus Line. And what's really interesting is even before that, the reason Cats exist is because of A Chorus Line. A Chorus Line became this big giant mega hit on Broadway. And of course they wanted to take it to London, and they went, they were going to with a London cast because the shows are gonna they assume it was going to run a long time in London, and they went to cast it. This is you know a year or two after it opened on Broadway, and they couldn't find the dancers that they needed, who the triple threats that they would need to do a show like Cats that you could find on Broadway.

And it's just because in the history of musical theater, that was not a strong suit for British performers prior to this. They just didn't have enough people who could sing and dance and act in equal enough measure to play all of those parts. So they quickly determined that they had to they were gonna bring an entire American cast over to open the show in London, which they did, but British Equity, the actors union, would only let them stay for six months, and then they had to be replaced by British performers. So it started this, you know, movement basically to we have to now train British performers to be able to take over these roles, to be able to play Cassie and Morales and all these characters.

And that happened. And the show ran three years, I think, in London. So there were multiple people that there was a, it wasn't just one set of cast members that had to acquire these skills. And it substantially raised the level of danceability among British performers during that time. It was like a sea change, which you know the British theater has benefited from ever since.

[9:38] Mike Abrams: Yeah. That would not be a problem later with, you know, most shows. And what I discovered is that then Andrew Lloyd Webber noticed this was happening and appreciated this idea. And one of the things that came out of his, you know, idea that we need to showcase this new level of talent that we have was to write Cats. So he said, okay, we need to get these triple threat, big kind of mega musical. My first idea for that is the let's put them in cat costumes. Well, I think he wanted to create a show for dancers. And so now maybe I don't know exactly what order this was going on in his brain. Did he already think I, I think I should make a musical out of this poem, this T.S. Eliot series of poems?

You know, what was I suspect it was all just sort of swimming around and the idea that, well, if are they gonna be cats, they probably need to be dancers, or did he just think we've got this opportunity to showcase these newly danceable British performers, and I'm gonna make a show directly for them. So somewhere it's in there, I believe.

[10:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Well, and then I mean, there's also then the parallels of like the show is, but like you said, a doppelganger, like it's very similar. It's a paraphrase in many, many ways. You have a and you now instead of A Chorus Line, you now have a stage full of dancers in tights dressed as cats, but basically in the in similar skin type costumes on stage, who are now all competing to be chosen by an authority figure. It's Zach in A Chorus Line and now Old Deuteronomy.

[11:24] David Armstrong: Old Deuteronomy, exactly. Thank you. I just couldn't think of his name offhand. Uh Old Deuteronomy in this to be selected to move on to the next phase.

[11:35] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And in A Chorus Line, of course, it's to be chosen to be in the musical that they're auditioning for and you get a job. And in Cats, it's to be, you know, put on a tire and sent through the roof to the heavy side layer, whatever that is.

[11:51] David Armstrong: Yeah. It is really fascinating that like how much of all shows influence other shows. And then I mean, it kind of leads to the second part I was I was curious to hear a little of your take on, but you also reference a little bit about how the like Six is almost in the similar same vein, like another example of that, the evolution of that.

[12:11] David Armstrong: It was another contest. And, you know, people talk about A Chorus Line, and I really do think when you look, we didn't think about this back in the day, but it's like the first reality show. I talk to my students sometimes about this, and I say, you don't understand. There were no reality shows before this. That idea did not exist. And I think you can attribute A Chorus Line to putting this idea out there because it was based on, especially because it was based on characters, people burying their souls in order to win the contest, even though it was fictionalized here, it was still the real words of real people in A Chorus Line, sometimes playing themselves and sometimes playing other people. But it was this it ties into you know what would later start with The Real World and all that kind of stuff and just overwhelm entertainment the way it happens.

[13:07] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And I think so that contest element of it is right there in A Chorus Line, then right there in Cats, which you talked about on one of your podcasts, that it was that the contest element can either be noticed really strongly or not so strongly, but that is the plot. The plot, yeah. What what little plot there is is someone's gonna be chosen as what the Jellicle cat is that what they call it?

[13:31] David Armstrong: Yeah, yeah, the Jellicle choice.

[13:33] Mike Abrams: The Jellicle choice, that's what I meant.

[13:34] David Armstrong: Yeah.

[13:35] Mike Abrams: And we'll get to uh we'll based on this one authority figure's decision. I do find it really interesting of like because it is the plot and it's the way I think about it, but I also know the way I was introduced to Cats like for my whole life, um, was 2016, and I saw Leona Lewis. So I was going in saying, I'm watching an X Factor performer. That's how I knew her. And this is then I felt like I watched the weirdest X Factor in the world. Like I was already thinking about a contest style reality show. Right. And then I and then I watched one. But I do wonder if I didn't see like the second time I saw it, I saw Mamie Paris. If I saw Mamie first, if I would have not walked in the theater thinking about X Factor, would I have felt the same way?

And is that where there's some like loose interpretation of maybe I would have gotten deeper into the characters or the story or other parts of this, like maybe the religious aspects that are in there instead of this competition element that I honed in on purely because of Grizabella.

[14:43] David Armstrong: I mean, I would suggest that it probably just helped you to see what was there because you were coming from that standpoint. And granted, Cats is not the clearest show.

[14:54] Mike Abrams: It's sometimes very confusing what the hell is going on or what it's about.

[14:59] David Armstrong: But so I think that just seeing it through that, you were seeing it in the reverse of me seeing it, which is seeing it for the first time without, you know, reality shows being in the zeitgeist, being in the world.

[15:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah, true.

[15:15] David Armstrong: So I that was it couldn't influence my thinking because they didn't exist basically then.

[15:20] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[15:21] David Armstrong: I also have never seen A Chorus Line.

[15:23] Mike Abrams: And so I like it's just not a show that's been, I mean, my Broadway experience has been since I moved to New York and beyond with a little bit of tours before that.

[15:32] David Armstrong: Right.

[15:33] Mike Abrams: It's just never been something that's popped into Indiana when I was, you know, younger, or it's not been in New York until they had the, you know, recent like anniversary one night 50th year anniversary show.

[15:44] David Armstrong: Yeah.

[15:44] Mike Abrams: So I'm like waiting to get to a version to where I could go see it.

[15:46] David Armstrong: And I still have to do that.

[15:47] Mike Abrams: Yeah, there was a revival probably maybe just before you moved to New York.

[15:50] David Armstrong: It was just five years ago or something like that.

[15:52] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[15:53] David Armstrong: So yeah, that's interesting. And then you were talking about Six and that same contest thing.

[15:59] Mike Abrams: There's competing to be the, I again, I don't quite understand what they're competing for, but somehow they're competing to be the best of the wise or the best of the worst.

[15:59] David Armstrong: The best of the worst or the best of the dead, or I don't know exactly what it was, but somehow there's a competition.

[16:16] Mike Abrams: It is like a TV reality show.

[16:18] David Armstrong: Yeah.

[16:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they lean heavily into it.

[16:20] David Armstrong: Before I saw Six the first time, you know, when it was very all the rage and popular, I got a message from a former, you know, Jellicle performer and someone who's been on this podcast that just said, you need to go see Six. It's exactly what you've been asking for.

[16:33] Mike Abrams: Like it was like they were like, This is exactly what you want Cats to be.

[16:39] David Armstrong: And so then when I saw it, I was like, Oh, this is the competition element. And they lean heavily into it.

[16:44] Mike Abrams: And it is so interesting how that all kind of plays into each other and how much of theater is kind of built off of it.

[16:50] David Armstrong: And what your book does is kind of tackles that in a way of being able to show all those iterations.

[16:55] Mike Abrams: Well, I try to tie everything together because that is the way I think of about the history of the Broadway musical, even over more than a hundred years.

[17:03] David Armstrong: It all relates to each other. It all one thing feeds to the next. It's a continuum that continues all the way through.

[17:10] Mike Abrams: So there's so many, and people have remarked about this when they've read the book that they've responded to that.

[17:17] David Armstrong: I relate the pieces of shows from the past and shows from the present and try to demonstrate how they're related to one another and they're more interesting when you know about the show from the past or the show from the present that is feeding off of it, or the writers are somehow responding to mostly consciously, but sometimes I think unconsciously, subconsciously.

[17:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[17:41] David Armstrong: They have created something that's so similar. I mean, Six is a great example of it also connects to Chicago, which happens that same year as A Chorus Line.

[17:55] Mike Abrams: Uh, so that's kind of interesting that Six is definitely influenced by these two shows from 1974, I think.

[18:05] David Armstrong: I'm maybe wrong with the year there. Because the other thing that Six does is every song in the show is a reference to a specific pop song.

[18:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[18:17] David Armstrong: Specific star who sang that pop song. And each of those characters is based on Beyoncé or the they're all in there, and that's exactly what they do in Chicago is each of the songs is written to reference Eddie Cantor, Helen Morgan, very specific giant stars of the 1920s and their style of songs.

[18:40] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[18:41] David Armstrong: It's again, it's fascinating to see. And I love, you know, the thing I was excited about when I saw that you were doing a book is that you have the academic side of it, but then also with the podcast, you have the kind of way to turn it into a very entertaining and digestible way, and mirroring those two things together so that way it will be a great book.

[19:01] Mike Abrams: Well, and I tried to, that's the way I, I even though I think it's a very academic book in its substance and everything is very well documented and all that kind of stuff and cited, but I don't particularly like academic speak.

[19:15] David Armstrong: So I don't tend to talk that way and I don't write that way. So I tend to shy away from, you know, jargon, academic jargon.

[19:22] Mike Abrams: I always think when I read a book, like, well, why can't you just use a normal word? Why do I, why do we have to have this highfalutin word that means the same thing as a word that we all know?

[19:32] David Armstrong: Yeah.

[19:33] Mike Abrams: So I've tried to keep it very, I even though the publishers are counting on it and have marketing in it to be adopted as a new textbook for the history of the Broadway musical, I didn't write it as a textbook per se.

[19:48] David Armstrong: I wrote it to be a book I would want to pick up and read a popular history of the Broadway musical.

[19:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[19:54] David Armstrong: And I think some of the best academic textbooks I've read are the ones that don't read like a textbook.

[19:59] Mike Abrams: And so that's gonna be great. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back for more of The Wrong Cat Died.

[20:06] David Armstrong: Yeah. I do want to talk a little bit about your actual Cats experience though. Like how many times have you seen it? Like what's your history with the show?

[20:13] David Armstrong: Well, I saw the first time I saw the show was during its previews during its original run on Broadway. So I had moved to New York not that long before that.

[20:25] Mike Abrams: What year was that? What year did it open on Broadway?

[20:29] David Armstrong: Yeah, I was gonna say '82, but yeah.

[20:31] Mike Abrams: So I as a young, you know, struggling performer, choreographer, theater person at that point, I was working for Theater Refreshment Company, which is the company that runs the bars in the Broadway theaters.

[20:47] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[20:48] David Armstrong: So I'd been working for them for a while. One of the perks of that job is not only did you get to see the show that you were stationed at, you would also be able to pop into other theaters and see other shows or parts of shows, anything you want, sort of at will.

[21:09] Mike Abrams: Wow.

[21:10] David Armstrong: And, but which I didn't know because I hadn't been there that long. So I did that with Cats. What it was in previews, it was the talk of the town, everybody showed up. So I went over to the Winter Garden and just walked in the door and stood in the back, you know, and watched the show for a while.

[21:27] Mike Abrams: And now I get kicked out because...

[21:27] David Armstrong: And somebody said to me, Oh, yes, you can do that, but not when the show's in previews because everybody's too nervous and tense and they don't know who's in. There was a lot of, you know, concern about somebody saying something about the show before they were ready for people to see it. This is pre-social media days where it's like even worse now.

[21:50] Mike Abrams: Totally pre-social.

[21:51] David Armstrong: Yeah, to now I'm sure you couldn't do any of that because you have your phone and all that kind of stuff.

[21:56] Mike Abrams: So I that was my first, I saw parts of it. You saw pieces of one of the most confusing musicals to watch from start to finish in its previews on Broadway.

[22:11] David Armstrong: That is exactly right. And I did not know what the hell was going on.

[22:14] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[22:15] David Armstrong: But it was impressive, obviously. It was that original production at the Winter Garden. Of course, they had gutted the whole theater, and you're just walking into there, really not knowing. We knew the show had been a big hit in London, and we kind of had some sense of what it was, but most people back then didn't really understand what it was going to be till you sat there or till you stood there in the back.

[22:36] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[22:37] David Armstrong: So that was my first experience. And then I don't know exactly when I sat down in a seat to watch the whole thing, but sometime during that first year of its run.

[22:46] Mike Abrams: Yeah. Do you remember what songs you saw during that, like preview? Like, do you remember what parts of it that you got to catch?

[22:53] David Armstrong: I remember Rum Tum Tugger. I remember Terrence Mann.

[22:56] Mike Abrams: Yep.

[22:57] David Armstrong: And so that is very strongly embedded in my head because he was just so dynamic and it was so clear that he was doing Mick Jagger, which was fun, but yeah, somewhat surprising.

[23:10] Mike Abrams: So I'm pretty sure I probably didn't see the opening because I probably came in after I was the close the bar in whatever show I was, um whatever bar I was working at that point.

[23:25] Mike Abrams: And I don't remember...

[23:25] David Armstrong: You like left your show, came in, yeah.

[23:30] Mike Abrams: Once the show starts, you got nothing to do for an hour.

[23:33] David Armstrong: Yeah.

[23:33] Mike Abrams: Yeah, or more an hour and a half until intermission, so you have to set up for the admission.

[23:38] David Armstrong: Okay.

[23:38] Mike Abrams: So you can see.

[23:44] David Armstrong: So you probably didn't make it to the ball. Like you probably had to get away.

[23:45] Mike Abrams: Oh no, I didn't make it that far that time.

[23:48] David Armstrong: I'm sure that's true.

[23:49] Mike Abrams: And I got, you know, booted probably I think maybe two or three songs.

[23:55] David Armstrong: I know, I think I saw like a half an hour of the show or something.

[23:58] Mike Abrams: Okay.

[23:58] David Armstrong: Because I think at first they didn't notice I was there, and everybody's concerned, you know, and you're just sort of standing in the back. There were a bunch of people standing because it was previews, and then finally somebody said, Who are you?

[24:09] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[24:10] David Armstrong: So but I definitely remember Rum Tum Tugger. I remember, um it would have been Bustopher Jones after that.

[24:18] Mike Abrams: Yeah, is that the train?

[24:20] David Armstrong: I remember the train. The trains at the end is commissioning systems, yeah. Maybe I just remember that, maybe I don't remember it from that time, but that's something that sticks in my head from that original production.

[24:29] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[24:29] David Armstrong: Because it was Trevor Nunn recycling something he'd done in Nicholas Nickleby. So it was like, oh, we've seen that before, Trevor.

[24:37] Mike Abrams: Well, that's the moment where Nicholas Nickleby gets in the carriage to go off to London. So it was a very similar taking the pieces of something and assembling them into another thing for a big event.

[24:51] David Armstrong: Okay.

[24:52] Mike Abrams: So that was interesting. So I that I remember from the original production, but probably you're right, probably not from that night.

[24:58] Mike Abrams: And then do you see, like when it comes to talent, like did you see the US tour when it was traveling? Or like how often do you is it something you try to seek out when it's around?

[25:08] David Armstrong: I've seen it a couple, a number of times. I think maybe the next time I went to see it, and I don't know exactly what the order of this is, but a friend of mine worked with John Napier on the set design. And when they did, when they broke the record for the longest running musical, they had a big gala event at kindergarten.

[25:30] Mike Abrams: Right before that, they had refurbished everything about the show.

[25:34] David Armstrong: And my friend Nancy, who was the one working at the, every light bulb was replaced, everything that had been faded. This was, you know, I don't know how many years in, but 15 years after it opened or maybe more. They had re, she was responsible for refurbishing the whole set and making it look like better than new, like it wasn't opening night.

[25:56] Mike Abrams: So she took me as her guest to that sort of gala event, which was really fun.

[26:01] David Armstrong: And I don't think I'd seen the show since I saw it the, you know, original original cast. And I know that night they shot fireworks off the marquee out front, and they, it was a whole big kind of pretty fantastic event.

[26:15] Mike Abrams: And the show was very dynamic that night because there was number one, it looked like they'd replaced all the costumes. They had really just redone it all.

[26:20] David Armstrong: It's like a new show, yeah.

[26:23] Mike Abrams: It was like a new, a new brand new production of the show on Broadway.

[26:27] David Armstrong: And so that's the second time. That was very exciting and fun. And then my friend Michael Gruber, who I've done a lot of shows with, who's actually from Cincinnati where I was that we did shows back in college days. He was Munkustrap in the video, the video capture of the movie.

[26:46] Mike Abrams: The 1998 movie, yeah.

[26:47] David Armstrong: Yeah, exactly. So I don't exactly remember the first time I saw that or when it, but I was very much aware and saw that show that video early on and often because I knew Michael so well and he the star of it, basically.

[27:08] Mike Abrams: Yeah, yeah.

[27:08] David Armstrong: He's really sensational in that. I think he doesn't quite get the credit for being how great he is in that video capture.

[27:17] Mike Abrams: Yeah, that cap. I mean, that's one thing I didn't know until I interviewed Jacob Brent about it, is that that's not just like a pro shot. Like they went and made them a movie and they pulled some people out of the show and they cast some other people. So it was a, it's its own separate process to make this whole thing into a movie.

[27:35] David Armstrong: And it was not like a one or two-day thing, it was months.

[27:39] Mike Abrams: No, it was like more like a movie shoot. And I remember Michael talking about it, and he was so thrilled to be, they were like choosing the best of the best from all these different companies and different things, and so he, of course, was thrilled to be in it.

[27:51] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[27:52] David Armstrong: Then I've seen that over the years multiple times because I assign that to my students as one of the shows. Not every year, but very often, that's in the list of like 13 musicals that they have to watch. Because I try to find things that are video captures that show accessible and the theater show, it's not a movie of it, it. It's we're you're seeing the sets and the costumes, and yeah, that's fairly close to that, even though it was not done in the theater itself.

[28:20] Mike Abrams: It feels like it.

[28:21] David Armstrong: I mean, I'll just watch and didn't know and it's brilliant. Really well done. I have to have of those kinds of things, that's a model for how to do that, I think.

[28:32] Mike Abrams: Did you see the Andy Blankenbuehler revival version?

[28:36] David Armstrong: I did not see that.

[28:37] Mike Abrams: Okay. Did you see the interesting 2019 movie version?

[28:42] David Armstrong: You know what? I for the very first I watched it last night for the very first time to get ready for this knowing that I was gonna be on here today, and I thought I've never seen that movie.

[28:53] Mike Abrams: Yeah and maybe I should watch it.

[28:55] David Armstrong: How'd you feel?

[28:56] Mike Abrams: You know, it wasn't as horrifying as I thought it was gonna be. I went into it because all I, I'd read everything about and heard everybody talk about it and all that kind of stuff. So it wasn't nearly as, you know, weird or glitch filled, or all the things that people have talked about with it.

[29:16] David Armstrong: I know they fixed some things along the way.

[29:18] Mike Abrams: Yeah, they definitely did. I still think there's a, an okay movie available if they didn't jump cut everything into oblivion that you can't see the dancers because the cast is incredible.

[29:36] David Armstrong: Yeah, no, the people are really, really good. Mostly I was kind of bored.

[29:41] Mike Abrams: Yeah.

[29:41] David Armstrong: I just think it gets, uh, yeah.

[29:44] Mike Abrams: Well, it gets a worse rap than it deserves. And a lot of that's because the launch was really bad.

[29:49] David Armstrong: I mean, there just was a lot of errors and there was some, you know, the noise around it was bad. And then it was also, you know, it competed with some other big stuff opening the same weekend and didn't they spent a lot of money on it. But I'm glad you watched it. You know, it's a I feel like people should still see it. Well, what came what was the best element of that movie is still the score, which is undeniably engaging. It it's sort of mind-blowing how it's never been my favorite show, never will be my favorite show. But you can't not be engaged by the those by the music and the way he set those lyrics to the music, even when you don't know what the song's about or what's going on, which sort of in most things I would think that would be such a deal breaker for me because I want to story is sort of the first thing I'm interested in.

But somehow that works in spite of the fact, and then what annoyed me more in the movie, or what I didn't like about the movie was them trying to explain the story to and it's like, no, it was better when you didn't quite understand it than you now telling me what these things are. I that was I remember I I forget exactly who, but I was talking to somebody from the 2016 revival when it was coming out. Yeah, and they said the first thing they said was, I don't really know what I'm gonna love or hate about it, but the fact that they're adding dialogue in a show that has no spoken dialogue, it's all sung, yeah, is almost diminishing some of the story in itself. It's like they almost felt like they needed to dumb down the story because there's you know the loose plot.

Whereas I think they should have played more into the competition element, which felt almost lost in that story. Yeah, so I it was an interesting choice to use like Victoria as like the arc to learn what's happening. But way in the representative of us. Yeah. But it was they missed some stuff I thought because of that too. Yeah. And I thought the villain didn't work at making him this sort of super villain just didn't work at all. Yeah. That was anyway. He's not supposed to be a villain. Like that's the other thing too is like he's it's fun because the lyrics also make it kind of comical and easy to poke fun at for jokes. But like he's he's also the brother of a couple of the cats and he's like in the tribe and he wants to go and so I I don't know.

It's like they they tried to make him way too too mean, but let's let's do some rapid fire here to get to to the million dollar question because I gotta ask you. Um but first is uh if you could be in cats which cat would you want to perform as I I have a snarky answer and I have probably a real answer. My snarky answer is I want to be one of those uh Siamese cats that got cut if I don't have to do it. Oh okay. So you don't have to be in it at all. So I don't have to be in it. Okay. So you want to be one of the characters cut. Okay, who's your who's your other answer? I think my other answer would be uh Gus uh that's that was my favorite part of the show. I guess I probably saw that because that's fairly early in the show isn't it?

Uh no it's in the second act in the second act yeah it's right after uh moments of happiness in the second act. So it's the first like big song after the right they bring bring you back in. I think that was always one of my favorite parts of the show. And uh so I think that probably would be uh the thing. Uh the other my other snark answers people used to jock joke about um they were in cats they were playing jocke strap which I don't know if you've probably heard that joke before but yeah yeah okay okay okay um so are your favorite favorite and least favorite cats in the show and I usually ask this from a personality standpoint but if not just in general I mean probably Mungo Jerry and Rumpelteaser are the ones I just want to get off the stage as quickly as possible.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Who your favorite Gus probably and um and again it it makes no sense why is that uh Mr McCaff or uh Mr. Mistophelis number so engaging and effective w with a character that we don't that just sort of I mean not all the characters sort of come out of nowhere but in a way is just like this big tour de force number that he has yeah and part of it is the music. The music is just really engaging. So I would probably say he's a very appealing character. Okay. Okay just uh in his little vaudeville turn. Yeah favorite song in the show I mean that's probably it could be that one could be uh the magical Mr. Mistopheles uh yeah I'll say I'll go with that one for now okay I'm not a big memory fan I know people always say that's the song that's the song that's the song it's like what the hell does that lyric mean?

Could be this could be good for my last question then. Um one more before that which cat do you think would be the best uh professor to teach your course well uh Deuteronomy, I assume, would be the one with the most authority and the most yeah seems to to know everything. So let we'll go with him. Okay. I thought Gus could be could be a good second one too. Gus, absolutely, certainly in terms of the history of theater, he seems to have lived it all. So yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, my show, as you know, is centered around my my disbelief in the jellical choice. So who is your jolical choice and why? So uh let me ask a question about that. What even though I've heard you talk about it quite a bit.

The the cat who's going to be sent through the roof. Do you know that story that about the lady there was a fame back in the day? There was a story that made the round of all the theatrical circles of this woman who had was they overheard in like a diner or something, saying, Well, you I saw the most incredible show the other day. You can't you can't believe it. It's cats, it's all about cats. And the then they're all they dance around and they look like cats, but then there's this one cat, and she's old and she's very sad, and then at the end of the show they shoot her through the roof. Yeah. Great. I love the story. Yeah, I'm sure somebody uh I don't uh has can tell an even better version of it, but uh hilarious that that was the the rhythm.

That was the message. Yeah, the resume message right there. It's fabulous. Yeah, yeah. Uh so my question is they're choosing what in your mind is the criteria for being the jellical choice. So this I think is the crux of the argument and the the question that's unanswered. Because you in this, you know, hypothetical world that we're living in, you only have one example of one night. And I've heard versions to where old Deuteronomy is omnipresent and he knows everything, and he knew she was coming back. I've heard versions where Gus was the choice, but then he saw her come back, and that's at intermission when she's right before intermission, she sings, and that's when he makes the choice that she's gonna be the choice.

But nobody can answer is it a different choice every year? Is it redemption every year? Like I've always joked why is there somebody coming back next year that we don't know about? Like, is this an annual thing? Or how is that made? So I don't think there's clear criteria. The one I've always felt is the person who needs it, the cat who needs it most. And from that argument, I I can tell you why I disagree that she needs it most. Um, but I'm curious for yours, because I don't think that question's answered. And I think a lot of people's decision depends on how you interpret that question. Right. So it's interesting because there we talked about reality shows earlier, and there was a reality show from when I was a kid, which I barely remember.

There was a it was a big hit back in the 50s, but I think it was still like in in uh you know, uh reruns when I was when when I saw it as a kid. It was called Queen for a Day. Have you ever heard of this show? No, okay. So this was a very popular uh television show. I think it was in the daytime. I think it was a daytime television show. Uh and Queen for a Day was people women, like three women would come on and compete to be queen for the day. And in order to do that, you generally the one with the most pathetic story was the one who won, who got to be queen for a day. This is six. This is the I'll yeah, very much so. Literally Queen for a day. Yeah. Uh and so they would tell, and I don't remember that well, but you you can find episodes of it.

They would tell these heartbreaking stories about their son has cancer and all this kind of stuff. And then whoever had the was the lowest, the most needy of the women would then be crowned with a crown and a banner, like she was Miss America, a queen for a day. So if in some ways I feel like that is a reality show that existed that may actually have influenced cats, because in a way, it seems like she's getting the award because she's the most pathetic cat on the stage. I've never heard about this reality show, and now I'm fascinated by it. Um and yeah, I mean, I I think it does. If that's the criteria, then yeah, she would be picked. I struggle with her leaving her family. Yeah. Which has been my argument for a while.

So are you picking Grisabella still? Uh if that's the criteria, I guess I am. Who needs it the most? She does seem to be the most down and out of the that doesn't have to be the criteria. That's what I'm saying. Like that's I think the reason you wrote the show to have that criteria. So everyone wants to pick her. Yeah. But you can pick whatever criteria you want. My original concept for this, the podcast was because I saw Leona Lewis. I wanted to s uh send Tugger and Mistopheles together as a boy band because that's what the X Factor does. They take a bunch of solo shows and make a band. Yeah. So that was my answer was if we're doing it from a singing competition, I want them as a boy band.

Yeah, I guess I'm not gonna disagree with Andrew Lloyd Weber. He clearly wrote that song in order to present her as the person. I mean, there's a reason she pre-preises the song twice. Is because he's setting us up for this is going to be the choice. This is where the story is going, what story there is. Okay. Okay. So I'll just honor his his choice there in terms of that. I'm gonna keep it in here mostly because I like the Queen for a Day concept of like that's uh I'm gonna I'm gonna find that reality TV and it's gonna be gonna be what I watch here. Yeah, I think it was a lot of it was on live television, so I don't know how much of it exists, but there's probably kinescopes and things. Everything's on YouTube, yeah, everything's somewhere.

I'm sure I can find it. You'll find something, yeah. That's amazing. Um, this has been so fun. I mean, again, uh I love learning from you. I always love your show for that reason. I always learn something new whenever I listen to your podcast. Well, um, how can people stay in touch with you? Get the book and um and follow the podcast. I'll link everything too uh in the next slide. Right, right. So my podcast is Broadway Nation. It's on the Broadway Podcast Network. Uh that should be easy for anybody who's listening to the show to find and to tap into. Uh the book can be per is on sale now literally everywhere books are sold. If it's your local bookshop, which I encourage you to get it from, you may they may have to order it.

I don't know that every bookshop is going to have it in stock at this point. Uh, but uh you can certainly do that. It's also available on Amazon, although at this particular moment it says temporarily out of stock, which I'm taking is a very good sign. Sold out. They didn't quite order enough copies to begin with. But I encourage you to go to Bloomsbury.com. That's the website for Bloomsbury, where the you can purchase the book, and it's on they right now they have it at 30% off as sort of an introductory uh offer. I don't know how long that's gonna last, but hopefully it'll still be going when you hear this. But I think even then it'll go back to 20% off. There's a little discount you can get there, which is great.

And I'm really so happy the way that Bloomsbury has released the book because they've put out both the hardcover and the paperback at the same time, which doesn't always happen. And the hardcover, as people might expect, or maybe it'll be a surprise, is $100 because it's a big book that you know will be in hopefully in every library and things like that. But the paperback is only $34.95, which I'm really happy about because I think it's uh makes it very accessible. And that's not always the case. But it's a I often want to buy books these days. Uh and I'm lucky that I feature them on my podcast so I get free copies of things. If I had to buy them, I'd be broke because it's really, you know, it's like everything else.

Everything is expensive these days. So I'm thrilled about that. And then personally, you can find me on Instagram, especially on my Facebook group. I have about 20 almost 3,000 members in my Broadway Nation Facebook group. And that's a great place to come for conversation and interaction with a bunch of other people that love Broadway musicals. Awesome. Yeah. We'll link all of that too, including the Bloomsbury link. And um, yeah, and I I strongly encourage local bookstores too, because I try to try to get books that way as well. And um digital books too, you can get from libraries and it's available as a digital book also. We're in discussions about an audio book. We haven't started on that yet, but that'll be a fun project when I get one on that.

You got your mic ready after the book. I'm my mic is here and ready to go. Yeah. Amazing. Well, it's been so fun. Absolutely. I enjoyed it. And I loved uh it's fun to talk about very specific elements that are in the book, like cats, which you know is a major event in the history of the Broadway musical. Totally, totally, yeah. And again, learn something new, which is for me at this point. I always joking. I don't think there's much about cats I can't learn, but I love when I always learn a new theory or history. Um because again I didn't know about anything about it until 2016. So there's definitely some gaps in my in my knowledge there and it's fun to learn it. And uh I'm excited to to finish the book since I only got to kind of like dig into pieces of it and and read the whole thing.

Cool. Well I can't wait to hear what you think. Awesome. Well thank you for coming on and thanks for everyone else for listening to this episode of the Roncat Died the podcast breaking of the Castethy. To follow along you could subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any of us's podcast. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, there and social media at the Roncat Diet or check out our website TheRoncatDiet.com