This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Pam: Hey, welcome back to the Broadway Teachers Podcast. Hi, Gordon.

[0:08] Gordon: Hi, Pam. You know, this one is special for me.

[0:11] Pam: Oh my gosh, I do.

[0:13] Gordon: So since we began the Broadway Teachers Workshop 21 years ago, I have wanted to have Patti LuPone as a special guest.

[0:21] Pam: And she's been like your mission, your mission to get this woman to attend our event.

[0:26] Gordon: It's like my white whale, but don't tell her I use those words.

[0:30] Pam: In any case, it finally happened this year thanks to her amazingly generous publicist and her generous spirit at a time when people really needed a goose, an uplift.

[0:42] Gordon: She gave it to us this summer in a really witty, rambunctious, fiery conversation.

[0:51] Pam: And you're about to hear all of it. Here goes.

[0:55] Gordon: The following was recorded live at the Broadway Teachers Workshop, an annual program that brings theater teachers together with the Broadway community for behind the scenes classes, workshops, intimate discussions and Broadway shows in New York City and online.

[1:11] Pam: Learn more at www.broadwayteachinggroup.com.

[1:17] Gordon: Hello. Hello and welcome back, everybody. We are so lucky. This is someone that I have been waiting for years to welcome to the Broadway Teachers Workshop. And she's here with us. We're so fortunate. Welcome, Patti LuPone. There'd be huge applause right now, but it's happening all over the world in people's bedrooms.

[1:36] Patti LuPone: Thank you for joining us. Where are we finding you?

[1:40] Patti LuPone: In Litchfield County, Connecticut. Home.

[1:43] Gordon: Beautiful. Home of not only you, but I understand some bears, chipmunks, fox.

[1:49] Patti LuPone: Yes, lots of animals and lots of right now.

[1:54] Patti LuPone: Oh my God, I'm getting bit all over the place. Those no-seams.

[1:57] Gordon: I'm sure you have them in Pound Ridge as well.

[1:58] Patti LuPone: Yes, everywhere.

[2:01] Patti LuPone: In this particular lockdown, sheltering in place, quarantine pandemic, it has been lovely being home with my family in this environment. And I mean, I know how lucky I am that I'm in the country. The social distancing is just the way it is. My next neighbor is at least an acre away from us. So, you know, it's the world is going to hell and I'm very comfortable.

[2:31] Gordon: How have you been staying sane? What have you been doing to feel creative, to feel connected?

[2:36] Patti LuPone: I'll tell you, my musical director, Joel Fram, I don't know how we got on the subject, but we got on the subject of Gustav Mahler. And Joel is one of those scholars and just a brilliant technician. And he must have studied Mahler. So I'm sort of in a Mahler classroom with Joel, where he will write up sort of a dissertation of what the particular symphony I'm listening to is about, listen to certain themes, etc. Because I love programmatic music. And then I will listen to the symphony. So I'm learning, which, thank God. I'm watching, of course, I'm streaming, I just finished Babylon Berlin and My Brilliant Friend are my two favorites that I'm streaming. And I'm weeding.

[3:31] Patti LuPone: I'm weeding.

[3:33] Gordon: Wait, you say like weeding, not reading.

[3:38] Patti LuPone: Weeding.

[3:39] Patti LuPone: I'm reading too. I'm reading. I read Madame Bovary, the new Lydia Davis translation, which is spectacular. And now Lucia Berlin's short stories, which is, again, Manual for Cleaning Women. I thought it was Manual for Cleaning Women, but it's Manual for Cleaning Women. That's really terrific. I'm cooking. We have, my husband and son and I have a ritual where we have sort of an Italian lunch around 3 o'clock, 3.30. And we come together and we listen to jazz. And that's when we all three of us come together. Everybody's off doing their own thing. But I'll tell you, I've had it. And of course, we're screwed in this country. We are totally screwed because we are knee-deep, as they have said, in this pandemic because of the lack of leadership from the idiot in the White House. And I don't know when we're ever going to get out of this. It's scary. It's depressing. It makes me mad. And I've had it. You know what I mean? I'm like, it's enough already now.

[4:43] Gordon: But it feels like we haven't even started.

[4:45] Patti LuPone: Well, you're fortunate that you have these passions. I mean, when you talk about reading, not weeding, did your dad, is that something? I know your father was a principal in an elementary school, is it, in Long Island? What was that like? Like, were you embarrassed to go to school with your father there?

[5:01] Patti LuPone: Yeah. Eventually, there were two elementary schools because the town grew. But yes, it was. Actually, I had a snowball with a rock in it thrown at me and hit me in the head because I was the daughter of a principal. So there was bullying, et cetera, et cetera. And when I went to a different school, which was closer to my school, that stopped. I wasn't the principal's daughter. But the person that really, we had great librarians. And it's the librarians that got me, I mean, developed my passion for reading. They would bring us, in an elementary school, they would bring us into the library. And Mrs. Morrison, I believe her name was, would read stories to us that just released our imaginations.

That's the one thing that bothers me about certain forms of stuff now. We're not allowed to experience it. It's experienced, it's completely open so that we're not experiencing anything. You know, how the mind, the imagination imagined what she was reading. I remember a story about two girls that would go to the forest at different times to the same spot until they met each other. And I can't remember how it ended, but there were, I'm talking when I was like five, six, seven years old, just having these stories read to me and having my mind work, having my imagination.

[6:39] Gordon: Isn't that amazing?

[6:40] Patti LuPone: It's incredible. And then how did that then spin into like the love of theater?

[6:47] Patti LuPone: I always knew, I was sort of born for this, not sort of, I was born for the stage, at a very early age. And because that's the other thing, my school district, Northport school district had, and I believe it still has a very strong music department from elementary through junior high into high school. And I believe when I was going to school, the instruments that we studied in elementary school were to serve the band in high school. And so we, in third grade, we were told to choose an instrument, either a band or an orchestra instrument. And we studied, I mean, I learned how to read music when I was eight years old and I had individual cello classes to learn about music. So we, and we were given instruments.

We, you know, I would take a cello home on the bus. That was my instrument. Everybody had an instrument and that followed all through junior high school. And then of course the choruses were added in junior high school where I studied cello and I wanted to be in the band because I, because the band, that's another story, but I played sousaphone in the band, the marching band. And then I was in all of the choruses. I was always in the music department because that's where I learned the most because that's where my passion was.

[8:12] Gordon: And did you do your first play in high school?

[8:16] Patti LuPone: Elementary school.

[8:17] Gordon: What was it?

[8:18] Patti LuPone: I played, I was the understudy to the Katashah in the Mikado.

[8:23] Gordon: They had understudies?

[8:25] Patti LuPone: I was the understudy. Also in the Mikado. But I was, so I was in the chorus, but we did the Mikado. We did Sullivan in elementary school. It's amazing. And it probably wouldn't happen now for a variety of reasons. But I do love Gilbert and Sullivan. I'm still in fishing and auto. What was your sort of high school splash? Like, do you remember having a moment where you knew everything was coming together and crystallizing?

[8:46] Patti LuPone: Well, I had a couple of them. We had a brilliant, she just passed actually this year. Esther Scott was the choral master in junior high. And then she moved up to the high school when we moved up to the high school. So I had her for a good five years. She was an inspiration to a lot of people. But we were chosen, you know, in every state. There's all Suffolk, well, all Suffolk, all county. And that was Suffolk County, all state, which would have been New York state and all eastern. I don't know whether they still have it, but so all eastern would be the best of the eastern seaboard from Maine down to Florida. And I was in all county, all state and all eastern. And when I was in all eastern, in the soprano section, this was the best of the best of high school kids.

[9:37] Gordon: You were a soprano?

[9:40] Patti LuPone: Wow. I'm still a soprano.

[9:42] Patti LuPone: I'm still a soprano. I realized that my talent, it was humbling because around me were these extraordinary voices of high school kids. It wasn't all about me. It wasn't all about me. And I took stock of what I think I had, what I thought I had as a performer, as a singer, and realized it didn't measure up to the people around me. And that was a big, big, big lesson, a realization, a self-realization. And I'll give you another couple of examples. I was given the solo when our, as I said, our Northport High School had an extremely strong music department. So we were chosen to represent, to sing for NYSSMA, New York State Music Teachers Association. And Esther gave me the solo of an original piece by Arthur Frackenpohle called Todeum.

And I was 15 years old, woke up the morning that we had to travel up to the Poconos. I think it was the Poconos. It was a concord, so maybe it was Catskill Mountain. And I had a very, very sore throat. I couldn't swallow. And I couldn't tell Esther, Mrs. Scott. Before we went, I could cry right now. Before we went, I mean, I told my best friends, the two people on either side of me in the chorus, that I was sick and I didn't know if I had a voice. Every time I swallowed, it really, really hurt. I think we slept overnight, and the next day we performed. And Esther, Mrs. Scott.

[11:29] Patti LuPone: Um, before we went on stage, she said that she had, I knew she did, a special needs child who only responded to music. And would we, I could cry right now, would we perform this for Gary? We were all sort of shocked and moved and I mean, the fact that she took us into her confidence about her child. Um, I mean, I couldn't let her down. She, you know, she, she was a champion for me. And then that, that information was, for a 15 year old kid, that was kind of mind boggling. We got to my solo. I didn't sing anything, uh, up to the solo. And it was, it was pretty extensive. I have a recording of it. Um, I opened my mouth and I sang the solo and I cracked on one note. Um, and got through it. And that's when we told Esther how sick I was and they got brought the doctor and I had tonsillitis and 105 fever.

You didn't want to disappoint her. I didn't want to disappoint her. I didn't want to disappoint myself. I, this was, you know, and, and, and it was a test. It was the first test of how committed I was to what I was doing in my life. I could have said, I'm sick. I don't want to do this. Or I could have said, I'm doing this come hell or high water. And I did it. And so that's sort of how I live my life, basically. Um, it was all a test, a test to, you know, for me, it was a test for me. Um, the, the fact that I was so blessed to have teachers in the music department and, you know, I had someone in, in, in humanities, Dick Streb, someone in economics, I think, um, not in economics. Um, it was, is it humanities?

I can't remember. It was humanities, but there were certain teachers that were able to perceive who we were individually. So I'll talk about me, who I was, what I was guarding, what, what was positive about what I was putting out in the world? Um, because I was a troublemaker and a loud mouth and a comedian, I was performing. That was, that's what I was born to do. So I did it all the time. And there were teachers that wanted to punish me for that. And there were teachers that understood and focused that, and they were the ones I learned from because I trusted them to, because they understood me. And a lot of times, you know, I find that the teachers, any teacher that I've had, you either have that ability or you don't, if you don't have that ability, you shouldn't really be teaching because it really is the most difficult profession.

It takes great wisdom, great wisdom and great empathy and, and, and, and a psychologist's mind, because I think we're just forming. We are, you know, we're just, I, I can remember what happened to me in first grade by a teacher, um, that shocked me. And it shocks me to this day. And she was a mean teacher. And then you think, why are you teaching first graders? When, and then I've had teachers that have been, they were, that's what they were born to do. And they were, they were, they're like, I don't want to, I don't want to sound ridiculous, but they were like gods because of how they understood, how much they understood, how, how they could encompass how they, you know, like it's, teachers to this day, if I have a teacher as a director, if I have a teacher as a composer, if I have a teacher in someone that is just a human being, but you see in them a way of, of how they live their life, that teaches.

I mean, to me, it's, it's, it's the noblest, baton firefighters, the noblest profession. I cannot believe that our teachers are dismissed, education is dismissed. And I'm bleeding for the kids that they don't have music education. Ours was mandatory as math was mandatory, as English was mandatory, music was mandatory.

[16:10] Patti LuPone: Um, can you talk a bit about some of your teachers at Juilliard? Well, they're, you know, that was a unique situation because we had teachers that were also professionals. So, and here they were teaching young actors that might take their place in a role and they were, they were mean. We had, I went through Juilliard and it was a brutal, brutal environment. And you were year one? Year one, group one, group one. Um, and they hadn't really formed the acting company or the acting, uh, they had a Bible, uh, you know, an acting Bible, uh, uh, Michelle Sondini, um, and John Hausman made this Bible, but we got a lot of technique and I had a lot of trouble school. They wanted to throw me out of Juilliard cause they didn't like my personality, but they couldn't throw me out because they didn't like my personality.

So they threw all sorts of roles in my direction thinking I would fail as an actor. And what they did was train one actor in versatility. The rest of them, they pigeonholed into leading lady, soubrette, ingenue, character woman. I was the one that was able to go, you know, and, and Marion Selvitz was my champion in school. Marion directed me about five times. She didn't teach, but she directed and she directed me not on the main stage in one of the studios five times. Um, what a beautiful spirit she was. Oh, she was great. She was great. Uh, she was my champion. She, um, she was also a character. Yes. There are many famous stories. She was a character. What do you think she saw in you that others didn't? No, I don't know.

And I never discussed it with her. Um, I know that she saw talent. I know that she saw undisciplined talent and undisciplined in my personal life and undisciplined and needed to be trained by that. I mean, when I mean undisciplined, I mean that it was a raw talent that needed to be trained. Um, um, but I turned in my best performances with, with, with Marion and Jack O'Brien. Um, and it was interesting how I was finally, uh, accepted by John Hausman, uh, which was after Juilliard and we were in the acting company and we, you know, I had to perform in one benefit when all the, um, donors were there and a woman came up to me in front of Mr. Hausman and said, I'm putting my money on you. And I was like, you know, we're still, we're still in the acting company.

We're basically still at school. And I, I didn't know who she was. She didn't identify herself. And I went, you know what I did? I went about time. No, all through school. I didn't understand why I wasn't getting the leading parts. I didn't understand why they didn't see what the talent was. Um, but it's so rare that you still held onto that sort of inner strength and you knew you did not let that deter you. Because I knew that I was born to the stage. I knew that I was born to the boards and I wasn't, it's a gift and it's a gift to give away. And I, you know, I encountered tremendous obstacles and I was not going to let them stop me from doing what I was born to do. And that, you know, that takes it. Why did I do it? I don't know. I mean, I could have turned around and go and gone, okay, well, it's too tough for me, but.

[20:04] Patti LuPone: But you knew, you knew. I think the news would have allowed me to. I don't think, um, did you think you were going to do musicals or plays? Did you have a sense? I knew from a very early age that I would do musicals and cause I knew what I, and the voice, and I also thought at 16 years old, I was in the apple orchard of Northport, our house. I thought that my career would be in Europe. I sort of had this, you know, premonition that this face was not American. And when I was growing, when I started in the business, it wasn't not that it is now, um, but it's very European, my face. It's it's, it belongs in Europe. When I go to Europe and I go to Italy, I was like everybody else. Um, but I knew that it wasn't America.

And, um, so I thought I didn't have a career when I was 16 years old, but I said in my stream of consciousness, consciousness, your career is in Europe. And, um, I knew when I was quite young that my career would be on the Broadway musical stage, but I didn't want to be on the Broadway musical stage. I wanted to be a rock and roller. I grew up with rock and roll, but I knew every time I sang rock and roll, I sounded like Ethel Merman. So I knew I belonged on the Broadway musical stage. I knew that's where I was going to end up. Um, can we talk a little bit about Evita? How did that come to be? Um, I think what happened was, um, um, um, uh, Joanna Merlin was Hal Prince's casting director. In our third year of Juilliard, John Hausman presented us to the New York theater community.

We did a series of plays in the, in the theater at Juilliard, um, to introduce these actors that they were training because we were the first class. Like a showcase. Yeah. And Joanna saw me and, um, um, she suggested me to Hal and I went in, I guess I didn't know whether I could sing or not. So I went in, I can't remember what I sang, but when I left, she said, make sure you're available for the final callback. And then I went to California and Steven Spielberg had cast me in, uh, 1941. And I, and that's actually my first big Hollywood movie, Steven Spielberg's only flop. Um, and then I, um, I, I got back into the audition and I had to sing Buenos Aires, uh, Don't Cry for Me Argentina and, um, Rainbow High.

And I got the part. And I think what Hal wanted was actors in the role. And they knew I had come from Juilliard. They just didn't know whether I could sing because Mandy was, I think four years behind me. And Mandy, when they were interested in Mandy, Mandy said, this is what Mandy has told me that who's playing.

[22:59] Patti LuPone: So we had actors in those roles. How lucky did they get finding actors who could sing like that? It's not just a little bit of singing. And it needed it, quite frankly, because the show is two hours of exposition. You know, Evita went here, Evita went there, Evita went there, she did that, she did that. There's very little dramatic, anything dramatic going on in that. We're just learning her journey. So Mandy and I had to connect the dots and make it dramatic, make exposition dramatic. And, you know, we had the ability because we had training.

[23:35] Host: You did, you did it marvelously. I will admit that although I saw the show 14 times with my bar mitzvah money, it was only because I was not allowed to stay for the evening show, so I never got to see you.

[23:48] Patti LuPone: Oh, right, yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't know that was happening and that really pissed me off, but. I was really angry because I was like, you are singing it wrong. You don't sound like the album. You're not the lady from the commercial.

[24:04] Host: Wasn't my decision.

[24:05] Patti LuPone: Well, regardless, your recording is magnificent and everything I put together is highly thrilling. After Evita, did it open a lot of doors for you? Did that change things for you?

[24:17] Patti LuPone: No, not at all. I went into Evita as an actress and came out as a fascist tap dancer. Perfect for Anything Goes. And that didn't happen for quite a long time. And back when I was in, you know, when we were doing this, which was what, 1979, 80, there wasn't the reciprocity between LA and New York did not exist. I mean, if you're a stage actor, you're a stage actor. You could not cross over to film. And I was a stage actor. I mean, I hit with that musical, which was controversial and all over the place. So, no, my only offer when I left was Lady Macbeth in Macbeth. And I went, haven't I just been playing her? Basically. At Lincoln Center, directed by Sarah Caldwell. And I sat in my room, on my room, on my apartment for a good three years, four years, not working. Trying to work, not working. You know, it's tough. It's tough. You know, it depends on what you hit with. Again, that takes all kinds of inner strength.

[25:31] Host: And of course, I really sort of fell in love with you and became super familiar from Life Goes On once that show started airing. It was so beautiful. And I had friends with siblings who had Down syndrome and it meant a huge amount to that community. How was that experience?

[25:50] Patti LuPone: It was difficult and heavenly. You know, I think Down syndrome kids are angels on earth. They really are angels on earth. And Chris was incredible. And I still have lifelong friends from that, Kelly Martin. I'm still very close with Kelly, who played Becca with Glenn. You know, I had a couple of people on the crew. But it was a novice group of television people who put an enormous burden on Chris. And Chris would have meltdowns and then they didn't have cover sets. So it got a little chaotic. But working with Chris, oh my God. I mean, I think we all feel the same way. Seeing what he achieved, watching him achieve it was incredible. He was amazing.

[26:56] Host: I can't imagine the pressure.

[26:58] Patti LuPone: Yeah, exactly. But then, you know, he knew his lines. He had, you know, he would stumble a lot. But he accomplished it. And the joy on his face every day. Every day. Sort of like Marian Seldes. Lucky, we get to do it twice today. If you were in a bad mood, you had no reason to be around Chris.

[27:34] Host: We have some questions here. I'm going to read some. One from a woman named Annalise Setafrati. Curious as to your perspective on being a woman in theater and how both the industry and the available roles have changed over your decades.

[27:50] Patti LuPone: Um, I don't, has it changed? I don't think so. I don't think it's changed. I mean, there's more female directors as well there should be. There was more women playwrights that are being produced as well there should be. But I, I think what's happened in theater is that, and it has less to do with gender, et cetera, et cetera. It has to do with money. And especially on Broadway, which has turned into Las Vegas. I have said ad nauseum that there should be term limits on federal and Supreme Court judges, congressmen, the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the War Room and Broadway musicals.

[28:40] Host: Agree.

[28:42] Patti LuPone: Because they sit in a theater for years. And what happens is we don't have a viable and vital theater. We have a tourist attraction. So Broadway becomes a tourist attraction as opposed to an exchange of ideas and an enlightening place. A place to see, you know, us reflected back. So it's very depressing actually.

[29:11] Host: That's a crime.

[29:13] Patti LuPone: But as far as being a woman in this business, I have, I've never really thought that it was because I was a woman in this business. I thought that I didn't get a role or I was rejected for something because it was me, Patty. I didn't put it together with the fact that I was a woman. I'm disappointed that I was never approached on the casting couch. I looked my way. I went out with, no, they showed me the door. I hope that answers your question.

[29:55] Host: Laura Rokoszak asks, Ms. LuPone, would you share your vocal regimen? How do you keep your voice so strong and amazing?

[30:02] Patti LuPone: Oh, okay. So I have a great teacher, Joan Leder, and she taught me how to breathe. I think the essential thing to singing is breath and how you float the vocal cords on top of the breath. And she taught me, I mean, I'm doing it now. We do more damage talking than we do singing because we stop the breathing and only breathe with what's trapped in the mouth, which puts stress on the cords, as opposed to, I know I'm talking to you. I know I'm talking to you. I'm talking, I'm inhalation. I'm taking an inhalation of breath and releasing it when I'm talking. I have a vocalist that I have been doing for years. That's a Joan vocalist. I still take lessons. I still learn from her.

[30:53] Host: I'll just point out that there's a running motif here today in the last 40 minutes of you continually talking about learning and remaining curious. And I think that's a huge part of what makes you an ever-growing, ever more compelling artist to watch and to talk to now and to hear from.

[31:12] Patti LuPone: Oh, thank you. Well, I'm, you know, I'm a tourist and I'm a fan. Bottom line, I'm a tourist and I'm a fan. So I'm constantly in awe. I'm constantly, my jaw is dropped because I am absorbing, taking in things that are fantastic, magical. Is this earth? Or going and seeing things in museums that are jaw dropping. And I think it's that ability to be awed.

[31:47] Host: Yeah.

[31:49] Patti LuPone: Wool gathering. You gotta input a little bit. What do we have here? Taylor Gregory asks, what would be your number one piece of advice for students who are wanting to make a career in show business?

[32:03] Patti LuPone: Know your craft. It's a craft. Whatever you choose. Know the history. Know the technique. Know everything about your craft. That would be my, I mean, so many people think they can just toss it off. And it's a craft. It's a skill. Mine is acting is a skill. Singing is a skill. Know it.

[32:28] Host: From Laura Distallo, Patty, what is left on your theater bucket list? What would make you excited to do next?

[32:35] Patti LuPone: Nothing. Back to waiting. Yeah, back to waiting. I'm waiting for Company to happen. And I think that'll be my last Broadway experience.

[32:51] Host: And I must say, I saw you in that in London. It was extraordinary. And I couldn't be more excited about the cast here. You have all my favorite people, E-Tai, everyone. Nikki Creedy, just everyone great.

[33:05] Patti LuPone: I don't know what's gonna happen. It's so sad. I mean, I have no idea when live theater will come back. How many performances did you do in New York?

[33:13] Host: We were 10 days, 11 days from opening. So we had two weeks of previews behind us. We were about to open on Steve's birthday.

[33:21] Patti LuPone: You're ready.

[33:26] Host: Well, hopefully everything will be back a year from now. We'll be watching you in the theater. All 1,000 teachers were supposed to come see you. There's not a full 1,000 here right now, but we were supposed to have 1,000 in the city coming to see your show.

[33:41] Patti LuPone: Oh, and I was so disappointed. I'm so disappointed that I couldn't see everybody, see their faces.

[33:48] Host: We'll be back next year for sure.

[33:55] Host: You've been listening to the Broadway Teachers Podcast, recorded live at the Broadway Teachers Workshop, an annual program that brings theater teachers together with the Broadway community for behind the scenes classes, workshops, intimate discussions, and Broadway shows in New York City and online. Learn more at www.broadwayteachinggroup.com.