This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:05] Blake Ross: Welcome back to Burnt, a true crime podcast combining the best of the stage.

[0:11] Blake Ross: Now, speaking of the best, today, you guys, today is a really big deal because we have a true crime legend and a legend of the stage.

[0:21] Blake Ross: He is a creator of the Obsessed Network, and he is the co-host of the wildly popular True Crime Obsessed.

[0:27] Blake Ross: Theater people know and love him because he has many theater podcasts too, including Theater People and Broadway Backstory.

[0:33] Blake Ross: He's a big fucking deal. It's Patrick Hinds.

[0:34] Patrick Hinds: Hi, girl!

[0:37] Blake Ross: Hi! How are you?

[0:39] Patrick Hinds: Thank you for having me on your podcast.

[0:41] Blake Ross: I'm obsessed.

[0:42] Patrick Hinds: Thank you.

[0:43] Blake Ross: Well, that is high praise coming from you because Obsessed is the name of the whole freaking network, which is a big humongous deal.

[0:52] Patrick Hinds: Well, thanks, girl. I was just, we were just talking before we went live about your most recent podcast.

[0:58] Patrick Hinds: Oh my goodness. About the murder, the what's his name? The, oh, Gary Heidnick, the documentary Monster Preacher.

[1:06] Patrick Hinds: Oh my, I mean, it is, it's that story that like is not well known. It's like this man who took like six women hostage prisoner in his basement for like months and months and months in Philadelphia, like in the 80s, it is bananas.

[1:21] Blake Ross: Crazy story. I was just telling Patrick how I was dropping off my daughter at school, my beautiful three-year-old at school, as I'm listening to Patrick and Jillian talk about this man who like dismembers women and is like roasting their ribs in the oven and feeding them to other women.

[1:39] Patrick Hinds: It's so gross.

[1:40] Blake Ross: It's a horrible, horrible story. But it's wildly entertaining.

[1:44] Blake Ross: And speaking of wildly entertaining, my friend.

[1:47] Patrick Hinds: Yeah.

[1:48] Blake Ross: You guys are gonna be on a Broadway stage.

[1:51] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. We are gonna be the first podcast to ever play Broadway.

[1:55] Patrick Hinds: Um, I can't even remember the date. It's April something.

[1:57] Blake Ross: April 22nd.

[1:59] Patrick Hinds: I have a lot of people.

[1:59] Blake Ross: April 22nd. Oh my goodness. We were, it was slated for uh June of last year, June of 2020.

[2:06] Patrick Hinds: Um, and of course, everything got canceled. But yeah, we are playing Broadway. We are, I'm so, I don't even know what to say. I'm beside myself.

[2:14] Blake Ross: Do you know? I mean, it's come, it's April 2022, so it's a little bit of a ways away.

[2:19] Patrick Hinds: No, April 2021.

[2:20] Blake Ross: So it's like this, oh no, you're right. 2022.

[2:23] Patrick Hinds: Oh my god, Blake, what is wrong with me?

[2:24] Blake Ross: I know it's crazy. The year has passed, but it's April 2022.

[2:27] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, you're right. It didn't hap already. But do you know yet what crime you're gonna talk about or like what show you're gonna do yet?

[2:35] Patrick Hinds: So the way that our podcast works is, you know, we recap true crime documentaries. So we are working with Discovery ID right now on maybe partnering with them on something, or we had an idea of something work, but we don't know exactly what yet.

[2:47] Patrick Hinds: What we do know is we are hiring an actual Broadway director who is gonna help us incorporate like actual Broadway elements into the show.

[2:56] Patrick Hinds: So we do our live show all over the country. We tour all the time.

[2:59] Blake Ross: Yes, and it's our standard like live show, and it's so fun and it's great. But for Broadway, we wanted to make it more of a Broadway experience.

[3:06] Patrick Hinds: Um, and so we're actually bringing in some folks that can help us do that.

[3:10] Blake Ross: Holy shit. Well, listen, April 2022, kids. Yes, are tickets on sale yet?

[3:16] Patrick Hinds: That's sold out.

[3:17] Blake Ross: What Patrick!

[3:19] Patrick Hinds: I know, I know.

[3:20] Blake Ross: Stage. I can buy a ticket. Can I get a ticket?

[3:21] Patrick Hinds: You are on the list. You are absolutely on the list.

[3:25] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[3:26] Patrick Hinds: We are, we might be adding a second show. We're doing it at the Hayes Theater uh with Second Stage.

[3:31] Patrick Hinds: So they are, they've been so amazing and so like accommodating. And since we're the first podcast to ever play Broadway, we had to negotiate a whole contract that will be like the contract that every podcast, whoever plays Broadway in the future will work under.

[3:45] Blake Ross: So that's been a little bit, it's been a fun, exciting challenge.

[3:48] Blake Ross: Okay, so if Burnt ever comes to Broadway, I'll call your lawyers.

[3:51] Patrick Hinds: Please absolutely do it.

[3:54] Blake Ross: Do you have an upcoming episode that you're working on?

[3:58] Patrick Hinds: I know the Alcatraz one that's coming out.

[4:01] Patrick Hinds: Yes.

[4:01] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. So then our next episode is called Escape to Alcatraz.

[4:04] Patrick Hinds: So, like I said, we recap true crime documentaries. And this documentary is about the indigenous people in San Francisco in the 70s who decide, you know, Alcatraz is that island in San Francisco Bay where it was the notorious prison for like 60 years, but then they shut the prison down.

[4:20] Patrick Hinds: And you know, back in the, you know, back in the day, day, day, way back in the day, it was indigenous land. Uh and so in the 1970s, the indigenous people decided to reclaim it, and it's fucking awesome.

[4:31] Patrick Hinds: And they go out on a boat, they take over Alcatraz for like a year, um, trying to reclaim it for indigenous people, and they get like the support of the world. It's like such a cool, it's such a cool story.

[4:42] Blake Ross: Where is the documentary airing?

[4:44] Patrick Hinds: Um that is a, oh, it's ABC, it's Hulu.

[4:48] Patrick Hinds: It was on Hulu because it was like an ABC news. Everybody, if you want, if you've, if you haven't, which I'm sure if people are listening to this, they absolutely know True Crime Obsessed Party.

[4:56] Patrick Hinds: But if you haven't, if you're like the one person who doesn't know it, go and watch Escape from Alcatraz and or Escape to Alcatraz.

[5:04] Blake Ross: Yeah, escape, this is a escape.

[5:06] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Listen, watch that, then go and watch Patrick and Gillian be hilarious and do the whole burn the whole thing down. It's amazing.

[5:15] Blake Ross: Burn it to the ground.

[5:17] Patrick Hinds: Burn to the ground.

[5:18] Blake Ross: Okay. So today I asked Patrick to come here today to talk about some more scandals that have happened on the Broadway stage.

[5:27] Blake Ross: Some of them are a little funnier than others. Um, our first one is one of my favorite things that's ever happened on a Broadway stage ever.

[5:37] Patrick Hinds: Are we Laponing right now?

[5:38] Blake Ross: Yes, we're Lapone.

[5:40] Patrick Hinds: We're going, we're going to Lapone Town.

[5:42] Blake Ross: Now, let I need to make a disclaimer that I'm a humongous stan for Patti LuPone.

[5:48] Patrick Hinds: Oh, okay.

[5:49] Blake Ross: So don't ever come to me with any bullshit about Patti LuPone. She will always be the win.

[5:53] Patrick Hinds: Winner.

[5:54] Blake Ross: Yes. Same.

[5:54] Patrick Hinds: Same, same, same.

[5:56] Blake Ross: Yeah. So this is a very notorious story. Patti LuPone.

[6:00] Patrick Hinds: So good.

[6:01] Blake Ross: It's so good. Okay. The background is January 10th, 2009.

[6:07] Blake Ross: It is one of the final shows that Patty is playing in Gypsy.

[6:13] Blake Ross: It's her second to last night at the St. James Theater. That's the setting.

[6:19] Patrick Hinds: During her performance, click, click, click, click, click, flash, flash, flash.

[6:25] Blake Ross: During Rose's turn.

[6:28] Patrick Hinds: Oh my God.

[6:29] Blake Ross: Right? Of all things. How dare you?

[6:34] Patrick Hinds: I have one question for you, Blake. Who do you think you are?

[6:36] Blake Ross: Do you think you are?

[6:43] Patrick Hinds: Now, Alan, can we play a little bit of the clip? The famous clip.

[6:51] Blake Ross: Stop. Stop taking pictures right now.

[6:55] Patrick Hinds: You heard me announcement? Who do you think you are?

[7:05] Blake Ross: I'm terrified.

[7:06] Patrick Hinds: This was years ago. I'm still terrified.

[7:08] Patrick Hinds: My butt is clenched.

[7:10] Blake Ross: Yeah. Right now. I'm asking you with that taking pictures. Can you imagine? Get him out.

[7:17] Patrick Hinds: Oh my God.

[7:19] Blake Ross: Okay. So who do you think you are? And Patrick Hinds, if you step onto your the Helen Hayes fucking stage and say, who do you think you are?

[7:34] Patrick Hinds: You are no friend of mine.

[7:36] Blake Ross: No, I, you know, like we're the opposite. I want to come out like in a Patti LuPone wig and costume and like scream at people for not taking pictures.

[7:45] Patrick Hinds: Well, listen. Patty isn't having absolutely none of it. And so that's legendary.

[7:51] Blake Ross: What's my favorite part is that a cell phone picked it up, and that's what made it so legendary.

[7:58] Patrick Hinds: It's like some bootlegger totally got the color.

[8:00] Blake Ross: Totally, totally.

[8:01] Patrick Hinds: It's so crazy. But do you know the aftermath story of it?

[8:06] Blake Ross: Well, it they, it was like a re- they made a remix of it.

[8:10] Patrick Hinds: Well, wait, but do you know who was taking the pictures? Do you know the person who my god, I'm gonna blow your mind right now. I'm gonna blow your mind.

[8:17] Blake Ross: Okay.

[8:20] Patrick Hinds: Bernadette Peters.

[8:21] Blake Ross: It was Bernadette Peters.

[8:22] Patrick Hinds: It was Bernadette Peters in the fucking house.

[8:24] Blake Ross: I'm blind close. The two of them were just sitting there clicking away.

[8:29] Patrick Hinds: Okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. So do you remember a couple of, I think it was months later, there was this beautiful pictorial in New York magazine of Patti LuPone's final week in Gypsy.

[8:41] Blake Ross: It started with her.

[8:42] Patrick Hinds: Do you remember this?

[8:43] Blake Ross: No.

[8:44] Patrick Hinds: Okay, it was, it started with her. The pictorial essay was her in her bed rereading her cell phone, and it took the reader through a series of beautiful photographs through her final couple of shows in Gypsy.

[9:03] Blake Ross: Do you see where I'm going with this?

[9:04] Patrick Hinds: Uh-huh.

[9:06] Blake Ross: So cut to. The brilliant photographer, Gillian Laub, is in the audience. Snap, snap, snapping pictures.

[9:15] Patrick Hinds: And Patty LuPone throws her out.

[9:22] Blake Ross: That's a show.

[9:23] Patrick Hinds: No! So wait, it was a sanctioned photo shoot?

[9:26] Blake Ross: Yes, it was New York magazine!

[9:30] Patrick Hinds: What?

[9:31] Blake Ross: So did the woman explain it as she's being dragged out of the theater?

[9:36] Patrick Hinds: She does not until years later. It's like yes, it's a hidden, it's like Broadway's best hidden secret.

[9:46] Blake Ross: Oh my god, I had no idea that is the greatest.

[9:49] Patrick Hinds: I heard about it first from the press agent that they bring her back, that she's freaking out. She's like crying hysterically, the photographer, as you would be. Could you imagine Patti LuPone? If Patty LuPone said to me, can you move out of my way? I would break into hysterics.

[10:03] Blake Ross: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's screaming at me in front of a thousand people.

[10:07] Patrick Hinds: Totally.

[10:07] Patrick Hinds: She's crying.

[10:08] Patrick Hinds: She brings her backstage.

[10:09] Patrick Hinds: Now, years later, Gillian on Instagram, this is what she has to say.

[10:15] Patrick Hinds: I was on assignment for New York magazine to photograph Patti LuPone's last Gypsy performance.

[10:20] Patrick Hinds: I came in the day before to scout the theater and figure out timing.

[10:23] Patrick Hinds: I was mistaken for an audience member.

[10:25] Patrick Hinds: Patti stopped the show mid-song and started screaming in the top five most mortifying experiences.

[10:33] Patrick Hinds: When she realized afterwards it was me, she was just as mortified.

[10:37] Patrick Hinds: She called me later that night to apologize.

[10:39] Patrick Hinds: Hashtag Patty LuPone.

[10:43] Blake Ross: Oh my god.

[10:44] Patrick Hinds: I've never heard that story.

[10:46] Blake Ross: Well, now you know.

[10:48] Patrick Hinds: I'll tell you, one of my first theater going experiences in New York. I went to see Golda's Balcony with Tova Feldshuh at a Wednesday matinee.

[10:57] Patrick Hinds: And we weren't, we were not 30 seconds in. And the light, like the lights come down, it opens with her like at a table smoking, and there's like a thunderstorm.

[11:05] Patrick Hinds: And she's like giving her monologue, and she just goes, "Stop, stop the show. Who is taking pictures? You, you, sir, in the second row."

[11:13] Patrick Hinds: She starts pointing somebody out. She leaves the stage, the house lights come up, the ushers rush in, and the people in the seats are ratting each other out.

[11:22] Patrick Hinds: "Miss Feldshuh was pointing at him. Miss Feldshuh was pointing at him."

[11:27] Patrick Hinds: The queens were there to rat out their own. It was unbelievable.

[11:30] Blake Ross: Well, I mean, cell phones and the theater have, I mean, not everybody is a podcaster who like, you know, is gonna come in and be like, "Take my picture."

[11:39] Patrick Hinds: So we all get everyone needs cell phones. Do you remember when Lynn Manuel Miranda like ratted out Madonna?

[11:44] Blake Ross: Yeah, wouldn't let her come back to say hi.

[11:46] Patrick Hinds: No, he was like, "Get the fuck out of my show. You're on your cell phone."

[11:49] Patrick Hinds: But then the, uh, is it Jeremy O'Harris? Is he the one who wrote Slave Play?

[11:54] Blake Ross: Yes.

[11:55] Patrick Hinds: And he was saying that like it was fine that Rihanna was on her phone. She's like, "She can do whatever the fuck she wants."

[12:00] Blake Ross: Which I mean, I don't disagree.

[12:02] Patrick Hinds: But then wait, Patty comes back years later, she's in another show.

[12:08] Blake Ross: Yes, she rams in character.

[12:11] Patrick Hinds: This is why I will always stand for Patti LuPone. If I ever get a fucking tattoo, it will say, "I love LuPone."

[12:19] Patrick Hinds: If character, walks off the stage, grabs a woman's cell phone, and continues the show.

[12:25] Patrick Hinds: Yes, puts it in her own pocket and walks away. It's unbelievable.

[12:28] Patrick Hinds: Like, it's unbelievable. Unreal.

[12:32] Blake Ross: Well, that's an amazing scandal. I can't believe you didn't know that it was the photographer, but now you know.

[12:37] Patrick Hinds: No, oh my goodness. That's a crazy story. Can you imagine?

[12:43] Blake Ross: No, I would have been hysterical. I would have been sobbing. I would have been beside myself.

[12:47] Patrick Hinds: And they're all screaming. And if you, I mean, I'm sure anyone who's listening to this podcast has listened to that a bajillion times.

[12:54] Blake Ross: But there's a lot of people.

[12:54] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, and again, there's a remix of it. I mean, if you're like ratting on your seatmate because it felt you, imagine if it's Patty fucking LuPone.

[13:03] Blake Ross: Oh, forget it.

[13:04] Patrick Hinds: In her line in her final performance, final Gypsy performance during Ross's turn.

[13:08] Blake Ross: Nothing's worse.

[13:09] Patrick Hinds: No.

[13:10] Blake Ross: Anywho, okay. So the second scandal that we're gonna talk about is Shia Labeouf.

[13:18] Patrick Hinds: Oh my god. I have another small connection to this story.

[13:21] Blake Ross: Oh no, why?

[13:22] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. Well, it's not like it's not a real connection, but like, you know, what came first? Like the Orphans thing came first, and then the arrested Cabaret.

[13:31] Blake Ross: Yes, yes.

[13:32] Patrick Hinds: I worked for this little company, which shall remain nameless. But this one of the guys who worked at the company, like ran like the bar at the, um, at Studio 54, or wherever it was playing.

[13:45] Blake Ross: It was Studio 54.

[13:46] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, he kept the credit card receipt that Shia Labeouf signed the night that he got arrested.

[13:51] Patrick Hinds: And you know, you can't do like there's no information, there's no usable information. Like, there's nothing.

[13:56] Blake Ross: I would hang it up in my house.

[13:57] Patrick Hinds: It's like, yeah, totally. And the thing is, Shia Labeouf tipped a hundred percent on his bill.

[14:03] Blake Ross: His bill was like 74.50 and he tipped 74.50.

[14:07] Patrick Hinds: All right, all right. That's a little bit of a redeeming quality. Good for you, Shia Labeouf.

[14:10] Blake Ross: Good tip, but I'll take it. I mean, maybe don't go then get dragged out of a Broadway house and maybe not that part.

[14:16] Patrick Hinds: But the good tip part I'm like.

[14:19] Patrick Hinds: Like, girl, get it together. It's a lot.

[14:20] Blake Ross: Okay. So he's dealing with some definite like mental health situations.

[14:23] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, this is a lot. This is very a lot of darkness around this Shia Labeouf.

[14:27] Patrick Hinds: But anyway, it provided a bit of entertainment while it happened in 2013.

[14:31] Blake Ross: So 2013 comes around.

[14:33] Patrick Hinds: And it's also very reminiscent of the Jeremy Piven of it all, which is what we talked about last episode when he left Speed the Plow.

[14:41] Patrick Hinds: It's like these very famous, or these like flash in the pan famous actors who are probably who are amazing actors, but they get this Hollywood about them.

[14:49] Patrick Hinds: And then they come to Broadway and they have these like epic meltdowns.

[14:53] Patrick Hinds: And that's how we do it on the Broadway.

[14:56] Blake Ross: No.

[14:57] Patrick Hinds: Or like Faye Dunaway. Remember when Faye Dunaway was fired a couple of years ago?

[15:01] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[18:00] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. I mean, Alec Baldwin, God, God love him. I mean, like, he he's had so many epic flubs in the last couple of years. Like, he just can't, he just can't do or say the right thing to save his life. Well, what's crazy is that like a few years before, you know, Alec Baldwin's all like clutching his pearls over not being treated correctly by Shia Labeouf. Now, granted, I'm not sure I would want my coworker following me home from the job, but Alec Baldwin, if you remember, Alec Baldwin left, or Jan Maxwell left an off-Broadway show that she was in with Alec Baldwin in 2009, the late great Jan Maxwell. Oh my god, there's nobody better than Jan Maxwell. Punched a fucking hole in the wall.

[18:46] Blake Ross: Alec Baldwin?

[18:47] Patrick Hinds: Yes. And that's why Jan Maxwell left her, left her show. So it's like, if anybody could give baby a little slack to some young, crazy, hept up like actor, it should be Alec Baldwin. Well, and then Shia Labeouf said later that like after he got out of prison for his like his like shenanigans at Cabaret, Alec Baldwin was the first one to write him an email and say, like, it's gonna be okay, man. Like I've been there too. It's just, it's so absurd, all of it. So after he blows up, after he goes, they gets gets thrown out for quote creative differences. He's pissed off that Alec Baldwin said this stupid garbage and vulture, and he goes on a Twitter rampage. Remember when Twitter rampages were a thing?

[19:30] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, totally. The good old days. So he goes on a Twitter rampage and he leaks all of these silly emails between Shia and Alec Baldwin and Dan Sullivan, the acclaimed director. Yeah. Basically, like Dan Sullivan placating both of these idiots. It's just so silly. Then cut to, as you said, Shia Labeouf goes to Cabaret, the great revival at Studio 54.

[19:58] Blake Ross: Yeah. My favorite part is Ben Passick was in the audience and was live tweeting it while it was happening.

[20:04] Patrick Hinds: He was?

[20:06] Blake Ross: Yes. Oh my God. He apparently he grabs um Alan Cummings' ass.

[20:13] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. He got drunk and uh $74 worth of booze.

[20:19] Blake Ross: Which is like a single.

[20:20] Patrick Hinds: I was gonna say, it's not that much, but okay. He gets drunk or high or whatever he was, goes cra nuts at cabaret. Cabray of all fucking things. Gets dragged out of the theater in handcuffs. He gets charged with one count of trespassing and one count of one count of criminal trespass and harassment in the second degree. Crazy.

[20:46] Blake Ross: And spends the night in jail.

[20:48] Patrick Hinds: Spends the night in jail. Shia Labeouf get like get some help, sweetheart.

[20:52] Blake Ross: Like for cavalry, Patrick.

[20:57] Patrick Hinds: I know. I will say that show is a party. I can see, I can see getting a little hammered in cabaret, but listen, we've all we've all we've all had our nights where you get a those, you know, you get the little plastic clinky cups and you have a good time. I'm all for it. But 74 worth of booze.

[21:13] Patrick Hinds: Keep your hands to yourself. Don't get, I mean, of all the places out of cabaret getting through getting dragged out and handcuffs. My word.

[21:21] Blake Ross: I know.

[21:23] Patrick Hinds: Shia, you have scandalized my friend Blake. This is unacceptable. My word.

[21:29] Blake Ross: Oh, seventy-five dollars in booze at Cabaret is not that much booze.

[21:33] Patrick Hinds: Nothing.

[21:34] Blake Ross: Yeah.

[21:34] Patrick Hinds: Nothing. But he's, you know, he goes on to have a very sordid past. And like he gets sued by his ex-girlfriend.

[21:43] Blake Ross: He did a porn movie?

[21:44] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, he did a movie called um, what was it called? I think I know what you're talking about.

[21:49] Blake Ross: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[21:49] Patrick Hinds: He like has like real sex things. Where he has real sex on camera. Then he did a weird art installation.

[21:55] Blake Ross: Yeah.

[21:55] Patrick Hinds: He went on to plagiarize his, he did a big apology thing with Alec Baldwin and Dan Sullivan, where he plagiarizes his whole fucking apology. He in a very dark twist, recently, he was he gets sued by FK Twiggs, who sued him for like being abusive during their relationship. Like he's not a great guy. He's got like lots of demons.

[22:14] Blake Ross: Yeah.

[22:18] Patrick Hinds: Lots of dark demons. But that was an interesting day at Playbill. I was like, I can't remember the last time someone got arrested at a Broadway theater.

[22:26] Blake Ross: And Benj Pasek was there for the whole thing.

[22:30] Patrick Hinds: Interesting. Speaking, okay, this is our last scandal. Oh my god, I didn't know anything about this, and then I read the whole article. This is very um, this is very true crime obsessed, and so that's why I'm not sure.

[22:43] Blake Ross: I can't believe there's been a documentary about this.

[22:45] Patrick Hinds: Yes. Uh right, there maybe should be. Now, most of this is taken from a great article that Jeremy Gerrard, the great Jeremy Gerrard, wrote in 1988. It is called The Life and Death of a Broadway Producer.

[23:00] Blake Ross: Oh, hold on. I'm just pulling it up. But it is about Norman Keane. Now, Norman Keane was the producer of Oh! Calcutta!, which, if you're a youngin listening to this, you might not know about it.

[23:14] Patrick Hinds: But Oh! Calcutta! was a humongous hit. Like it ran for almost 20 years on Broadway.

[23:20] Blake Ross: Yeah.

[23:20] Patrick Hinds: It's still one of like the longest-running shows. And it was like a review type thing. People got naked. It was like a very salacious, sports time type of show. Right?

[23:33] Blake Ross: So Norman Keane was sort of was that producer. He saw it from his infancy, and that was his big claim to fame. He had his actress wife. He had an apartment on Riverside Drive. They had a summer home in Montauk. He was like the typical fancy Schmanz or trying to be fancy Schmanz Broadway producer type.

[23:55] Patrick Hinds: Um then this again from the from the uh Jeremy Gerrard article. I'll start reading a little bit because it's a little crazy what ends up happening. So bananas.

[24:05] Blake Ross: Bananas, right?

[24:08] Patrick Hinds: So as they so this is what Jeremy writes. Try as they might, however, the Keynes never achieved more than peripheral artistic success in the unforgivingly competitive world of New York theater. Remember, this is in the 80s.

[24:19] Blake Ross: Yeah.

[24:20] Patrick Hinds: The late 80s. Growing older, they settled for the more mundane rewards of society and economic security, a compromise that exacted a devastating toll on Mr. Keene's self-respect. Now, he was married to, I think her name is pronounced Guida Dunhoe. She was an actress of her day. She was in a movie with like Tony Curtis. She wasn't, she replaced for a couple people on Broadway. So she was the actress, not of like humongous acclaim, but still a well-known actress of her day, and he was this producer of a really successful show.

[24:54] Blake Ross: So that's like sort of setting the stage. Yeah. Um, as you get deeper into this article, and I'll I'll post it in the show notes because it's a really good article if you're into that kind of stuff. So Jeremy goes on to say he could never be certain whether people considered him a good soldier or a buffoon, a word used repeatedly. So he's setting the stage for Norman and Guida as this sort of a bit of a golden couple of the town, the society type people, but perhaps not as golden as Mr. Keene would like.

[25:31] Patrick Hinds: So la this is another part of the article. He writes, last spring, two things happened that probably ruined Norman Keene's resilience. He became head of a theater advisory committee at a nonprofit theater in the Hamptons. They brought in the show Silver Fox, and he wanted to bring it to Broadway, and they told him he couldn't because it was like some nonprofit to commercial global de gook, and they were like, forget about it. During the same period, uh the producer learned that Guida, the wife, was having an affair, which I imagine was so he most of this, most of the the impetus for what happens next, which is really crazy.

[26:17] Blake Ross: So Norman Keene is in his apartment on Riverside Drive. He sends his 14-year-old son off to school. He promptly stabs his wife in the back in her like lingerie in her bedroom.

[26:35] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. She's dead. He closes the door. The maid comes in. For hours, the maid is gone. For hours and cleans the house. She doesn't go into the bedroom because she knows the lady of the house likes to sleep late.

[26:45] Blake Ross: Yes.

[26:45] Patrick Hinds: She knows the lady of the house. I mean, this is a this is a moment of time, if it's anything. So the lady of the house is sleeping slash murdered in the bedroom. Dead. Norman Keene is still in the apartment. He hands after the cleaning lady cleans the whole place, he hands the cleaning lady $150 and a bunch of notes and stuff and sends her on her way. Bye. Thanks for cleaning the house.

[27:14] Blake Ross: He then scrambles on top of his building to the roof, takes his glasses off, and jumps into the courtyard below.

[27:24] Patrick Hinds: A doorman finds Mr. Keene's body. That is so unfair to the doorman.

[27:32] Blake Ross: Correct. I mean, of all the things I mean, I know. My God. In a courtyard, right? So crazy. And then the son comes home and finds the mom. I mean, nobody thought to check.

[27:45] Patrick Hinds: I know. I looked up the son, though. He was 14 years old. I tried to figure out what happened to him. So there's no information. I couldn't find I think his name is a little too generic to really find. And like this was the 80s. So this whole internet trail didn't necessarily follow the son. But crazy. This so Norman and Guida, they met in Summer stock. They had like a what was in all like by all reports, a pretty good marriage. And then she started cheating on him, and he sent a private investigator to follow her around. I mean, it gets like uh bordering on obsessive. He sounds like he like completely went unhinged, obviously, and then murdered his wife. And the big note that he left was like, please make sure Oh! Calcutta! keeps running.

[28:29] Blake Ross: Yeah, yeah.

[28:30] Patrick Hinds: Not like, please make sure that my son is taken care of. No! You know what I mean? His suicide note was about Oh! Calcutta! Can you imagine?

[28:39] Blake Ross: No.

[28:39] Patrick Hinds: And I feel like it did keep running. I feel like what I read was that like it kept running for years after that.

[28:44] Blake Ross: It ran for like almost 20 years.

[28:47] Patrick Hinds: So it was like a crazy town. Crazy town. I just I can't believe I've of all my years doing theatery podcasty, true crimey stuff. I can't believe I never heard that story. I never knew that story.

[28:56] Blake Ross: Well, now you know.

[28:58] Patrick Hinds: And another person that was in this Jeremy Gerrard, and this is very, very deep dive, Broadway, but Paul Libben, the great legend.

[29:07] Blake Ross: Yes.

[29:10] Patrick Hinds: Yeah, I know. Oh my god, I went I interviewed Paul Libben for the Broadway backstory episode about uh Fun Home, and he I went into his office. He had like so many Tony awards that some were on the floor. He had like they were all like on like a mantle, and then there wasn't enough room for all the Tonies. So they were like on the floor while he would try to find another place to put them.

[29:29] Blake Ross: Yes, Paul Libben is Paul Libben is lots of things. He is an absolute legend, and apparently he lived in Norman Keane's building. I mean, crazy.

[29:36] Patrick Hinds: Yeah. He was one of the only people in the article that had nice things to say about Norman Keene.

[29:42] Blake Ross: Right?

[29:43] Patrick Hinds: I know. You know? I mean, like to murder your wife and then take your own life and then leave your 14-year-old kid. Like, that is just wow. And to say, please make sure my show keeps running.

[29:54] Blake Ross: I know.

[29:54] Patrick Hinds: I know, I know. It's just a lot. Imagine you're in the cast of that show and you find out that night. Like, what? Bizarre, right? I can't remember if there's been enough. Listen, anybody out there who's listening, if you know of any other murders that happened in and around Broadway, let me know. But I can't really think of any. I mean, we're usually very docile people.

[29:54] Blake Ross: I know.

[30:18] Patrick Hinds: I feel like if we go back to like the 20s, I bet we'd find a lot back then.

[30:22] Blake Ross: I'm sure that was a crazy.

[30:24] Patrick Hinds: I'm sure there's some showgirls buried underneath Seventh Avenue somewhere.

[30:30] Blake Ross: Oh, well, Patrick, thank you for bringing some true crime scandals to Burnt!

[30:37] Patrick Hinds: I love it. Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun. I am obsessed with you. I'm so glad you're doing this. This is a podcast that we need, you guys.

[30:45] Blake Ross: Yes.

[30:46] Patrick Hinds: And so make sure you check out, if you haven't already, check out the rest of Burnt to get a crazy ass story about Rebecca. The craziest scandal that one of the craziest scandals that Broadway has ever seen, besides, you know, murdering your wife, which is pretty fucking crazy.

[31:00] Blake Ross: And if you haven't already, Patrick is gonna make another fucking show on Broadway so that people can actually buy tickets.

[31:08] Patrick Hinds: Me included. We are we're gonna try to get, we're gonna try to add a second show for True Crime Obsessed on Broadway. We're gonna try.

[31:13] Blake Ross: Okay. And you're gonna promise me that you're gonna come out.

[31:17] Patrick Hinds: Who do you think you are?

[31:21] Blake Ross: Turn your cameras on, take your p.

[31:23] Patrick Hinds: Who do you think you are not taking my picture?

[31:26] Blake Ross: Exactly.

[31:27] Patrick Hinds: Thanks, Magic.

[31:29] Blake Ross: Thanks, Play.

[31:34] Blake Ross: For sources and more information on the Rebecca scandal, visit BPN.fm slash Burnt.