This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Ben Rimalower: Broken records, the albums you wouldn't shut up about.

[0:06] Daniel Nolen: Broken records, the music our guests can't live without like Judy.

[0:10] Ben Rimalower: Barbara, Liza, Bett, Batty, Audra.

[0:13] Daniel Nolen: Bernadette.

[0:14] Ben Rimalower: We broadcast this podcast with hopes that someday we might get Patti LuPone.

[0:25] Daniel Nolen: Broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck.

[0:33] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World. I'm Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with my lovely co-host Daniel Nolen.

[0:42] Daniel Nolen: Hey y'all.

[0:43] Ben Rimalower: Today's guest is Tony Winner, Santino Fontana. Santino took home the 2019 trophy for Best Actor in a Musical for Tootsie, and was also nominated for Cinderella.

[0:54] Daniel Nolen: Snatching trophies.

[0:55] Ben Rimalower: His other Broadway credits include Hello, Dolly!

[0:58] Daniel Nolen: Opposite Bernadette.

[0:59] Ben Rimalower: Yes, and Act One, The Importance of Being Earnest, A View from the Bridge, Brighton Beach Memoirs, Billy Elliot, and Sunday in the Park with George.

[1:09] Daniel Nolen: And now sing it as Bernadette.

[1:11] Ben Rimalower: Sunday in the Park with George.

[1:13] Daniel Nolen: Thank you.

[1:14] Ben Rimalower: Speaking of Bernadette, Santino has been a series regular on Mozart in the Jungle, as well as Shades of Blue, and Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

[1:22] Daniel Nolen: And Santino was the voice of Hans in Frozen.

[1:25] Ben Rimalower: Is that the bad guy?

[1:26] Daniel Nolen: Uh, I think so.

[1:28] Ben Rimalower: Santino is gonna chat with us about Stevie Wonder's's Songs in the Key of Life.

[1:32] Daniel Nolen: Yes, she is.

[1:34] Ben Rimalower: Can you call straight guys "she"?

[1:36] Daniel Nolen: Uh, I feel like with Santino we can.

[1:38] Ben Rimalower: He would allow it.

[1:39] Daniel Nolen: He would allow it.

[1:40] Ben Rimalower: He's an ally, that's for sure.

[1:42] Daniel Nolen: Um, he's definitely an ally.

[1:44] Ben Rimalower: The thing that I realized talking to him though in our interview was he's definitely straight.

[1:52] Daniel Nolen: No, well, it's so rare when you're in musical theater that people are as decidedly hetero as Santino is.

[1:58] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:59] Daniel Nolen: I just got this vibe, like I kept wanting to treat him as like a girlfriend, and I was like, oh wait.

[2:03] Ben Rimalower: He's not a girlfriend.

[2:04] Daniel Nolen: He's like a dad.

[2:04] Ben Rimalower: Like, the closest he's literally a dad in a muzzletub.

[2:08] Daniel Nolen: But the closest Santino could be to a girlfriend is like if your girlfriend's like Bea Arthur.

[2:12] Ben Rimalower: Or Dorothy in Tootsie.

[2:15] Daniel Nolen: Dorothy in Tootsie.

[2:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally.

[2:17] Daniel Nolen: Well say I feel that Santino is at his most mask in drag.

[2:22] Ben Rimalower: Does that make sense?

[2:24] Daniel Nolen: I mean no Tino shade. I think he's perfect in that show.

[2:28] Ben Rimalower: Perfect.

[2:28] Daniel Nolen: But that, you know, it's like, you know, he's like a young Dustin Hoffman.

[2:33] Ben Rimalower: A young DH and in those quick changes, you know, they don't have time to pad him.

[2:38] Daniel Nolen: So he really looks like a Bea Arthur silhouette, you know, those big shoulders and like down to like the thin hips.

[2:44] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, see, I am the exact opposite. I'm if you want me to play a woman, you actually have to tape down my hair.

[2:51] Daniel Nolen: Well, I think I've told you this before, but at my 30th birthday roast in 2006.

[2:57] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I wasn't even born yet.

[2:58] Daniel Nolen: My favorite line of the whole night, to truth be told, this is advice for anyone that decides to have a roast. You have to encourage people to be mean. Because most people at my 30th birthday roast, 13 years ago, were too nice and it made it not funny.

[3:13] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[3:13] Daniel Nolen: Um, but the funniest line of the night was um my then roommate Brian, Brian Cruy, shout out, who said, um, so let's all raise a glass and give it up for the man with the tits of Bernadette Peters, the ass of Patti LuPone, and the talent of Lonny Price.

[3:34] Ben Rimalower: That's beautiful.

[3:35] Daniel Nolen: It was very cute and funny.

[3:37] Ben Rimalower: Uh, that should be on your bio.

[3:40] Daniel Nolen: Well, I think I'd get sued by at least two people.

[3:43] Ben Rimalower: Well, you already been sued by one of them, so-da-da-da-da.

[3:48] Daniel Nolen: Um, so how do you feel I'm doing on the podcast?

[3:52] Ben Rimalower: Uh, today or no, in general?

[3:54] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I think you're doing wonderfully, yeah.

[3:56] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[3:56] Daniel Nolen: Um, Jonah, how I think you're doing.

[3:58] Ben Rimalower: Please.

[3:59] Daniel Nolen: I think you're doing wonderfully.

[4:00] Ben Rimalower: Um, have you been getting a lot of fan mail?

[4:02] Daniel Nolen: I have been. I mean, mostly from my mom. She sent me a video today of her listening to the pod.

[4:10] Ben Rimalower: She said how much she loves that Mary Testa.

[4:12] Daniel Nolen: Mary Testa.

[4:13] Ben Rimalower: Whatever that was in Beautiful.

[4:16] Daniel Nolen: Now I want you to know that my mother, a certain Kathy Ivers Rimalower.

[4:20] Ben Rimalower: That's Kath has not responded at all.

[4:23] Daniel Nolen: Well, she's busy, you know.

[4:25] Ben Rimalower: No, she's not that busy. My dad, who honestly has no idea who Mary Testa is or anything really. I mean, my dad could not be farther from our target audience. My dad, for the first time in our relationship, retweeted me about the podcast.

[4:40] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that's lovely.

[4:41] Ben Rimalower: My mom has given me not a like.

[4:43] Daniel Nolen: That's so interesting, because your mom messaged me about the pod and said how much she liked.

[4:48] Ben Rimalower: Wow, so maybe we are, maybe I'm the problem.

[4:50] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I don't want to speak out of school. Would you ever think about replacing me with Glenn Close?

[4:55] Ben Rimalower: Uh, never.

[4:56] Daniel Nolen: Never.

[4:57] Ben Rimalower: How about Carolee Carmello?

[4:58] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[4:59] Ben Rimalower: Open to it.

[5:00] Daniel Nolen: Open to it.

[5:00] Ben Rimalower: You're in toxic.

[5:01] Daniel Nolen: But I feel like you're in toxic.

[5:02] Ben Rimalower: But I feel like you would.

[5:04] Daniel Nolen: Well, you would need me to get her.

[5:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, totally. I mean, honestly, I think Betty Buckley and I would be the first to tell you. It's an honor to be replaced by Carolee Carmello.

[5:12] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely.

[5:12] Ben Rimalower: But what is the word for what it's like to be replaced by Glenn?

[5:16] Daniel Nolen: Uh, it's a kick in the rear part.

[5:21] Ben Rimalower: Well, well, let's see. What do we know? What is the nature of being replaced by Glenn Close?

[5:28] Daniel Nolen: When one is replaced by Glenn Close, one can deduce that one is a big star. Because Glenn Close is a big star.

[5:34] Ben Rimalower: Although, I will point out, not an Academy Award winning one.

[5:38] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[5:39] Ben Rimalower: Which that to me, that's what keeps Glenn human.

[5:43] Daniel Nolen: Just an ordinary man.

[5:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and I never feel threatened by her.

[5:47] Daniel Nolen: I do not ever feel threatened by her, not since that one time.

[5:51] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[5:51] Daniel Nolen: When I felt very threatened.

[5:54] Ben Rimalower: I wonder how Patti feels with Glenn's lack of Academy Award history.

[5:59] Daniel Nolen: I mean, that's an interesting question.

[6:02] Ben Rimalower: I do think she cares anymore.

[6:04] Daniel Nolen: I do think that. Um, I don't know. Like, I mean, honestly, Patti is so weird because, like, you never know when Patti's gonna be like, oh no, no, no, she has seven nominations, she never won. Or when she's gonna be like, has she never won? That's funny, I didn't know that.

[6:19] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[6:20] Daniel Nolen: Like, but she chooses to be. It's so weird how she'll be all like got the receipts about show business things. I mean, I think I've told you before, one of my favorite Patti LuPone moments was when we were um rehearsing the New York Philharmonic Sweeney Todd. One day we were rehearsing in the underground rehearsal room at the New York State Theater, which is the Lincoln Center home of the um ballet and city opera was not where we were doing Sweeney Todd.

[6:47] Ben Rimalower: But for this one afternoon we were rehearsing there, and um, in the middle of rehearsal, who should stop by but legendary Broadway conductor Paul Gemignani, who happened to be in the building working on something else, and wanted to say hi to Patti and Lonny and George Hearn and Audra McDonald and whoever else. He was not there to say hi to me.

[7:07] Daniel Nolen: But um, so Paul comes in and talks to everybody, and as he's leaving, Lonny shouts out, um, love home to Carol Ann, thinking that Paul was still married to singer, uh, actress singer, I guess, Carol Ann Page.

[7:26] Ben Rimalower: Caroline Page, familiar to me, and I'm sure many in our listenership as the soprano who sang with so little to be sure of on the Sondheim celebration at Carnegie Hall in 1992, conducted by Paul Gemignani. But I'm sure she has other credits.

[7:39] Daniel Nolen: But anyway, uh, as I don't think Paul heard him, and Audra said, Lonny, or maybe some, it must have been Audra, he's not married to Carol Ann anymore.

[7:51] Ben Rimalower: And Lonny said, he's not. I didn't know they'd gotten divorced.

[7:54] Daniel Nolen: I think Carol Ann, by the way, might be um Alex Gemignani's mother, I'm not sure. Um, maybe someone can write in and tell us.

[8:00] Ben Rimalower: But Lonny's like, um, I I didn't know that. And and Audra or someone else at that point said, no, he's married now to Darren Altay.

[8:09] Daniel Nolen: And Lonny says, Darren Alte, Darren Alte, why do I know that name? And from across the room, going through her purse, not in the conversation, without looking up or missing a beat, Patti says, replace Manova.

[8:26] Ben Rimalower: And it just occurred to me that she really has a file on all the women that have played the part.

[8:31] Daniel Nolen: To the point where Paloma San Basilio, the fabulous uh Madrid-based Spanish actress and singer who played Ava in the original Madrid production of Evita, my sister and I always refer to her as Paloma San Basilio, that cunt.

[8:46] Ben Rimalower: In the fantasy that my version of Patti would call her that.

[8:50] Daniel Nolen: But all that being said, I do not know whether Patti would know the truth, the details about Glenn's Oscar. I will say though, my money's on yes. Because if there's ever any doubt about someone Patti would have that kind of knowledge about, Glenn Close, I would say is number one top of the list.

[9:10] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[9:11] Daniel Nolen: Second only, if at all, to Bernadette Peters.

[9:14] Ben Rimalower: But I would say maybe even ahead of Bernadette.

[9:16] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally.

[9:17] Ben Rimalower: And then uh, and then also, you know, Patti knows about the Oscars, I think.

[9:17] Daniel Nolen: Patti knows about the Oscars.

[9:24] Ben Rimalower: And she has enough, you know, she's friends with enough gay men who I'm sure like bring her this intel, even if she's not like watching the Oscars on her own time.

[9:33] Daniel Nolen: Well, but someone that she does know who's not a gay man is Santino Fontana. And let's hear from him.

[9:38] Ben Rimalower: Let's hear it for the boy.

[9:44] Daniel Nolen: Broken wreck, broken wreck, broken wreck.

[9:49] Ben Rimalower: I'm using them for on, you know, on we're talking about uh Santino Fontana. Dickinson's witch hazel's original witch hazel wipes. I've been using them for a couple years, but it's become more intense, I would say, in the last 16 months.

[10:03] Daniel Nolen: What really the first time I experienced them as the ultimate New York summer lifesaver. Because I'm always walking around everywhere and like just drenched in sweat. Even when I take a taxi with like three cold water bottles, until I'm like, my body adjusts to the AC and the new space.

[10:20] Ben Rimalower: I'm just the, you know, honestly, I sweat in the winter because like the hot shower and everything by leaving the house rushing, anxiety, it's like, you know.

[10:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[10:29] Ben Rimalower: And I hate that. And so I always have a roll of paper towels in my purse, and I'm like mopping.

[10:35] Daniel Nolen: You do not.

[10:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[10:37] Daniel Nolen: You do not have paper towels.

[10:38] Ben Rimalower: I do. I don't have my purse today because I've just forcocked it. We just got off the P Town Fair the other day, and the roll of paper towels fell out of his suitcase and rolled down the runway.

[10:46] Daniel Nolen: Are you kidding me after it?

[10:48] Ben Rimalower: Do you really bring paper towels?

[10:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[10:50] Ben Rimalower: Well I like I like the um Viva brand. They're it's very thick.

[10:52] Daniel Nolen: It's thick and soft and it feels good wiping your face, you know.

[10:57] Ben Rimalower: And what I thought. So they're wipes, but they're witch hazels. So it's like it's like that sea breeze, you know.

[11:04] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I guess this is an old brand of Dickinson's. I think it smells like tequila.

[11:07] Ben Rimalower: It's I don't think so. But Dickinson's, yeah.

[11:09] Daniel Nolen: Dickinson's face if we don't get a sponsor show.

[11:12] Ben Rimalower: I'm gonna Dickinson's with a sponsor.

[11:16] Daniel Nolen: And it's so refreshing. When I am hot in the New York summer, I use one as like a wipe off all the sweat and my forehead, you know. Then I do a few, I'll put one just inside my shirt on my neck and my lower back, leave it there for ten minutes.

[11:31] Ben Rimalower: You're a new man.

[11:33] Daniel Nolen: But they're wonderful. And I love the smell.

[11:35] Ben Rimalower: All right, so Dickinson's needs to give us a sponsor.

[11:38] Daniel Nolen: 15 minutes of and brought to you by Hello, Tootsie the Musical on Broadway.

[11:43] Ben Rimalower: We are in Santino Fontana's fabulously decorated restaurant. And I just said I've been in all Patti LuPone's Broadway dressing rooms going back to um Noises Off. It's probably the first Broadway dressing or first that I was in.

[11:59] Daniel Nolen: And I've never seen her have it look this cute and fabulous.

[12:04] Ben Rimalower: Is this always the star dressing room of the in this theater?

[12:07] Daniel Nolen: There's one next to me. Lily is in one next door to me, and there's this one. And the uh, you know, yeah.

[12:14] Ben Rimalower: It's the biggest dressing room I've ever seen. I mean the biggest Broadway dressing room I've ever seen. It's a suite.

[12:19] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it's a bit of a little bit we're in a large space he walks into that has nothing to do with the sorry, I just bumped something in Ruby's life.

[12:27] Ben Rimalower: A separate chamber with the actual, you know, but it means the lighting in here is on point. I use the hue lights, the uniforms.

[12:37] Daniel Nolen: The ceiling is so well.

[12:39] Ben Rimalower: The colors, I wish you guys could see this. Um, this is great audio intent. The wallpaper.

[12:45] Daniel Nolen: It's like it's navy or something with like gold accents.

[12:49] Ben Rimalower: It's all it's everything I ever wanted to do. There's a neon sign that Sass Goldberg designed for me.

[12:54] Daniel Nolen: Fabulous.

[12:54] Ben Rimalower: Sass Goldberg was on Broadway and uh Significant Other, we love this.

[12:58] Daniel Nolen: So when you come into a dressing room, you just have it, you can have it redecorated, like the wall.

[13:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, they let you know.

[13:04] Daniel Nolen: How are you just not waking up to that fact?

[13:06] Ben Rimalower: Well, but to be fair, it's not this thing. And it also depends on the gate. Like some places that's not the part of the deal.

[13:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but Broadway shows, I mean, famously, right? Going back to like Yul Brynner's, the chocolate brown.

[13:17] Santino Fontana: Well, that was on tour. That that that was the thing was on tour. That was it. It depends. I'm very lucky there let me know. What do you think about that, Yul Brynner's? I mean, I know you don't want to talk shit about anybody. I don't know anything about Yul Brynner's. Well, you know, he toured in The King and I for decades and decades. That's gonna be you, you know. That's what I'm gonna do. Just like 40 years from now, you're gonna be still, you know, I'm gonna be carrying the wig in my bag, like you carry your paper towel too. I didn't mean to bust and shruk, I meant a first-class tour. Don't get crazy. No, I don't, um I don't know enough about Yul Brynner's. Well, here's the thing that Daniel is being a little bitchy queen and referencing is that Yul Brynner's famously the dressing room when he would be on this tour of The King and I for decades and decades, the dressing room had to be painted a specific color of brown that he liked.

Chocolate brown. Oh, yeah. Well, there are people who are like that. Right. Doesn't Sondheim do stuff like that? Oh. Oh, you you know, Barbara does it, Daniel doesn't mind. Anything Barbara does is just fine. Barbara's a different case. But I mean, Barbara's is is so like um like having Oprah paint her microphone, and Rosie O'Donnell had to flip the set so that Barbara could be shot from her good side. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. I'm not like that. No, but what do you think about Yul Brynner's? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't have enough about him with the chocolate brown thing. He's the fucking, he's the king. Literally. But if he's on tour. Yeah, but okay, this was not one day.

He was going into a dressing room in a city for what, six weeks, eight months. I don't know. Well, that sounds less. Although that's still not that long. I would not do that though. But you gotta go out there and do this thing. Don't you deserve a space to go back and matinee days of where you can have it the way you want it? Yeah, but chocolate brown on the wall isn't gonna make it. Well, you have a very nice navy. I mean, you choose your color. First of all, chocolate brown is just not appealing. But this navy is sealed. Restaurant quality. This is a good idea. It's a real we can't say no dressing room. Yeah. Do you want to give a shout out to the designer? It was me and Jess, my wife and I. Fabulous Jessica Hirschfeld.

Santino's my name, so it doesn't matter. Jessica Fontana. Yes, Jessica Fontana. I love her. We were talking about how great she was in Once Upon a Mattress downtown opposite Jackie uh Jackie Ari. Jackie. Jackie. Jack Gay Hoffman. And uh Andrew Senior. And lip sync uh, I was gonna say uh Shekinah. Um Chicklita. Chicquita. But uh but she's about to give birth. By the time this airs, Santino will be a father. Yes, any day. Wait, so what what is it's September? Your baby's gonna be a Virgo. I don't know. I don't know anything about you know what you are no mine. What are you? I'm an Aries, I'm the first day of Aries. I'm an Aries Pisces Cusmorus, March 21st. Oh, that's good. That's young bed. It's alright.

It's not great. It's not great. I mean, what is it? It's not real. It's good to be on the cast. Okay, can we talk about this? I think it's real. Doesn't it make sense that the alignment of the planets and the stars would be related to personality traits? Yeah, to chromosomes and genes and how you're what you are genetically. I don't know. I wanna I don't know. At times there are things that I'm like, oh god, that is me. Well, okay, but in fairness, I mean you'll probably think that if you read any one of those things. I'm not arguing for like, you know, armchair astrology. I'm just saying, I think that it's potential to have, you know. I hey, I would love for it to be real. Would you love it?

I would love it. I would love to believe that there's some like greater yes, of course. The irony is I don't really know uh much about the great transition. This is a great segue for us because my favorite song on Stevie Wonder's's song is life. I was gonna say if it's magic. Oh no, it's not if it's magic, it's magic. No, if it's magic. If it's magic. There's another song called It's Magic that I think. Yes, if it's magic, you're right. If it's magic. Then why can't it be everlasting? Like the sun that always shines. Like the poets in this rhyme. Like the galaxies in time. I think Patti LuPone has sung. Well, I wouldn't know anything about that. Yeah, okay, sure. Yeah. So how do you know that she has sung it?

I think I I don't know. Why do you think she never recorded it? So it's weird that you maybe I read it. Heard her sing it at some private event. No, definitely not. I've never heard her sing in a private event. It's really weird to me that you know that. Maybe we've talked about it. Maybe we have. That would make sense. Doesn't that make the most sense? I think that would that would make sense. I haven't seen that. Yeah. And I already definitely was. But why would I know about Patti LuPone? It would have to be me saying I'm the only person that even really knows. We do have the same Joan Lader. Voice teacher who could have met I don't know. Yeah, maybe so. Maybe so. Pulled out the I'm I'm glad you brought up Joan Lader because she doesn't get a by the way.

Did I send you the picture that I found? It's Joan Lader's modeling headshot from the 60s. When she was well, it was after. Yeah. Yes. No, this was from a modeling agency. This is like old. I think I've seen because Patti LuPone gave it to her. Found it. I think I'm the one that gave it to Patti. Well, Patti gave it to Joan. Patti was like, look, what I found. Oh, that's amazing. Yeah. Anyway, Joan Lader, the greatest voice teacher. I'm so happy to be with her because as you know, there's one thing in the world I'm an expert on. It's Patti LuPone's voice. And I've been a fan of her since before Joan Lader. And what Joan Lader did for Patti LuPone is huge game changer is not a big enough word.

I mean it's really it made all the difference and made her better in so many ways that have continued to pay off. Yes. Um and the Stevie Wonder's song is a great example because actually, if it's magic, Patti first was singing that in um uh Could'a What I Shoulda uh her Carnegie Hall concert in 1999, and I think also Matters of the Heart, another concert she's doing at that same time, both of which started that year, which were her first two um programs that had been initiated completely under Joan's uh tutelage. I mean Joan was helping her with whatever she had already got going on. But those songs she and certainly the Stevie Wonder's one because it's not like it's from some show she did. I mean she learned that song with Joan and I know where she's gonna mix and I know what kind of a placement the belt is gonna have and it's like it's solid ground.

Have you met Joan? Yeah yeah I love Joan Joan. My my favorite Joan Lader moment was in Patti's dressing room at the um uh New York Philharmonic after Candide and she was getting ready to go do the opera Regina at the Kennedy Center and um and she was like we're gonna have to take it all down we're gonna have to take it all down and Joan was like you can sing it Patti and she was like Joan I can't sing it that that those songs go up to A's and she Joan's like Patti you can sing an A. She goes I can't sing an A. Joan's like you can't. She's like well I don't want to. So Stevie Wonder how old were you when you first were you when you first knew that I was gay. Uh I think I'm not touching that I think uh I'm trying to remember there was definitely a time uh and I remember being kind of strange because in high school I'm from a small town in Washington State where uh it would be strange for a high school kid me to be listening suddenly really songs in the key of life aren't you almost my age?

No. No dear. No dear. As Andrea Martin was a no dear no dear. Men taken. No dear. Uh no. I was born in uh I was in high school in the late 90s. So late. We're not that far apart. You look at the five. I'm 43. Yeah, I'm 37. Oh yeah, no, you're younger. Um just because like when I was in a kid, I guess when I was a young. You were really little when that came out. No, when that came out. But but like, but he was so big. Like when I was in elementary school in the 80s with like part-time lover, and I just called it to say I love you. I think the lights are no meaning you. Those were the Yeah, I remember that. Those were radio. Yeah. He was not like someone our parents listened to that we was a current pop star.

I was not so for you. Early element. Well, I was really I mean, I I remember that episode of The Cosby Show that he was on. Do you remember there was an episode of The Cosby Show where they were like at the recording studio and I was in grade school. So but they also had like jazz grades. Like The Cosby Show was not limited to like current pop stars. Yes. That's true. That's true. Um okay, so it was weird that you were suddenly in like high school being. Like, oh, songs in the key of life. And all my friends in high school gave me crap about it because it was strange. Like, I think it's a Green Day. Do you remember the the Simpsons album? There was an album from the Songs from The Simpsons called Songs in the Key of Springfield.

No. But but I always thought that was a testament to what a big the original album had, that it was just a reference point for that joke. It's an amazing album. You know, I just think you can't pound for pound, it's well, it's a lot of talent. I mean, it's like three hours of music. Yeah. Or it yeah. So it's two discs, two CDs. But I mean, I think records it had to be like four something crazy. And it all see you know, it all goes into each other. It's beautiful. Did you like buy the CD yourself? Did your parents have it? How did you discover it? That's a good question. I don't know offhand, I don't know. Were you listening to it like in your room, on your disc man? I had a disc man. I was obsessed with the disc man in high school.

I I I d uh God, I don't know. What kind of disc man did you have? Oh, I well I went through them like candy. Like I broke them constantly. You know, they would be broken all the time. And I remember my parents being upset that I would be listening to music so much. But uh and not talking about it. Jokes like that, right? No, I remember that being kind of like, oh god, he's got his headphones on. Like I realize now is a total asshole move. Like what c like I would be upset if my niece or nephew were like, just had their headphones on when I was around. Uh but I don't remember you're about to be ignored. I know, I know. Uh and now it's gonna be so much easier because everything's yeah everywhere.

Uh I don't yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know how I got introduced to it. Did you were you d were you someone that bought a lot of CDs and got a lot of music kind of on your own, separate from your friends or parents anyway? Uh I mean uh Were you s a singer? It's hard for me to remember. Uh I mean I sang in like musicals in high school, you know. And uh uh and I was I played piano, I played piano, so and I was in the jazz band and piano and played piano in high school. So it was definitely musical. Did you sing in the jazz band too? No. Did anyone? No. No. They were never. Uh um, but you love singing? Like or did you as a kid more to the point? No. No, I wasn't a big You weren't like in the shower, like would you sing for pleasure?

It was a very kind of I think it was a very tentative relationship. Very like cautious, like, do I really am I good at this? Do I want to be good at I remember there was definitely like a time of can I really do am I really can I actually do this? Were people telling you like you have a gift, like you're really good, keep doing this? Or was that um journey? Yes and no. But I i uh I mean I think the the the the impetus or the the the the impulse to perform uh or be or communicating with large groups of people was something that people were definitely that I was definitely drawn to and somewhat good at and people were able to ar be able to see that as like also strange uh talking to the student body over the uh intercom every morning or doing like student body president and in eighth grade.

So really there you go. Um so there was a constant like every week we had an assembly and there I was speaking to them every morning, uh you know, and writing up scripts for and then also doing and then also acting. So music was always like a part of uh my like interests in the arts, but not uh it wasn't like I oh I wanna be not unto itself. Yeah, I don't I were were there any stars, artists that you were like, I want that career, or I wanna be that person kind of thing, even? Then no. No. I mean, in n uh oh god. I mean, I think at a no, because it didn't seem real.

[26:33] Santino Fontana: It didn't seem possible nor real. But not even in terms of like career goals, more just like that you identify. Yeah, I mean, I was obsessed with um I'm trying to rem it's so tricky because all that I'm so old now. Everything starts to melt together. Like uh, I remember all the actors that are on this wall, actually, there's 20 of them. I I see Jack Lemon, there's Jack Lemonist, and Bancroft, George C. Scott, George C. Scott. No, it's Roshi Scott, and that's uh that's George C. Scott. No, that's George Scott. That's uh Jason Robards, James Earl Jones, uh Julie Louis Dryfit. Francis McDormand, Sally, Sally Field, Tom Hanks, Meryl Streep, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Robin Williams, Sammy Davis Jr., Al Pacino, Olympia Dukakis, Jimmy Stewart, Uda Hagen, Elaine Strich, Jimmy Howard.

We love it. And that's a pretty accurate like snapshot of it's like an altar almost. I love it. It's like an altar. It's like your vision board. There, you know, it's people that like I'll think like, what would they do? I'm a lefty in that. Not a singer, not a singer, not a singer. There aren't a lot of singers. You're right. Who sings kind of Meryl a little. Give it to Meryl. Sammy. Meryl gives gets to be a singer. Meryl sings. Mama Meryl. Sam Badis Jr. Yeah, Sammy the Greatest. That's about it. Uh yeah. So, but no Stevie Wonder's. No, these are actors. I'm doing it. This this is also specifically about like we were thinking, okay, this show is all about theater, it's all about acting. Um who else, if you were to do a music wall, who would be there besides Stevie?

Oh, uh, that's good. Um Oscar Peterson and like jazz piano guys, but also Harry Gonner Jr. and um oh god, Diane Reeves, Kurt Elling, um Oh, there's so many uh there's so many, and then they're all in different, you know, there's like things that I would listen to just to relax, and then there's then Stevie Wonder's, sure. Then there's also like musicians that I uh admire, and then also people like in the Broadway stuff or like more kind of get into. Oh, I'm terrified to bring this up with you because I feel like you're gonna shoot. I don’t want to do this. I'm not doing this. I love everybody equally. I think everyone is amazing. But they're not all amazingly equal. Who do you think I like? And who do you think?

Well, based on that, I'm gonna say Bernadette Peters and Gypsy is like your everything. Although I don't in Tootsie, I was very gratified that when when Dorothy is envisioned in the iconic roles, her gypsy poster is very much Patti LuPone. That's so just for you. Well it means so much to me. You know, I don't think anyone else in that theater had I mean that. Not the same way. It's like that and gay marriage being legal, I feel kind of okay on our um no, I wouldn't say I I don't have no. I I I I don't have. Well, let me put it in a more specific way. Got here here's what I'll say. People that I saw as once I got farther along in the like, oh, maybe I could actually do this. Yeah. And do I wanna I knew I wanted to be an actor.

Am I gonna also be singing in in some things? Possibly let's see. No, but it's uh the other men that I would be listening to to think, oh, that's uh uh Brian Dorsey James, Jason Danieli, um uh I mean Stokes was doing all uh that like the ragtime set was right when I was starting to like understand what all that was. Uh and then um I do love Anthony Newley. And I do, I do. With you. I could learn to with you on a new day. Can I tend to review it? Don't love him too much though. Well, I don't love him too much. Some performers, I don't wanna say any names here, but there's people listen to Anthony Newley and they start to sound like him during their replacement gigs in ragtime when they have a lot of mannerhythms.

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't I really don't know. Well who replaces that. A lot of people. Let's talk about ragtime. I don't think that show gets enough airtime. I saw the tour of it. The first tour. Yeah. I mean, I saw it four times on Broadway and I saw uh the tour in LA, which might not have been the tour. LA might have been another sit-down, like at the Shooter Theater in LA. But I mean, I loved that show so much. You know, and even getting older and snotty about Terrence McNally and stuff, like I still love ragtime. Yeah. Um, I didn't see the revival because I oh, look at you. Well, you just couldn't. Well, I would have gone if they invited me, but I didn't get compsed, and I was like, I it didn't sound like something I wanted to get involved in.

Well, you didn't well, if you had such an experience with the original. Yeah, I mean, so those shows you see in those formative years. I mean, even shows that were crap, like the Goodbye Girl, I kind of loved, you know, because like I was that in that. Did you see it? Yeah, twice. This theater. In this theater. Yeah. That might have been the first thing. No, I saw stuff here when I was younger too. What did I see here? Did you see Nick and Nora? No, I wish I had. That was a f uh quick, quick run. Yes, that's true. And I lived in LA. I didn't get to see all the flops. Oh, right. That's right. Speaking of Joanna Gleason. Yeah, she was here yesterday. Any any women besides those? Uh well, wait, before we move on to that, ragtime, would you want to be Tate or Father?

I I don't know. I I don't I wish I I always were just a little gay or something. I'm just disappointed on every set. I feel like I just disappoint people so many times when they ask questions that I clear they clearly have invested like that. No, I don't know. I don't know. No, no, I truly don't care which of those parts you play. You can't disappoint me in that. I don't yeah. Or you can I figured you'd weird me out and throw one of those, like actually Houdini's a better part. I think it's a better part. Although I know he won't do that. My favorite Santino story is that no, I'm afraid. I'm terrified. When we first met, we were talking about like shows. I was like asking him what stuff he'd like ever, like, why I was like, I guess I was like, how come you never even just like when you were getting started, like, how come you weren't like a replacement like in Jersey boy?

Not yeah, Jersey boys. And he was like, oh well, maybe at one point they were interested in me for that, I think, and I was like, oh, which part? And he was like, I love that you asked me which part. I do like that you asked me which part. Because that means you think I could play more than one. Well, also people don't put me in a bunch in a block. I mean just asked about Tate and Father. I love that. Well, though those parts are equal. You created a narrative of what you thought I meant when I said that. I actually meant was that. I think you're right. I could be the hot-headed asshole or the dumb bass or the like friendly friend or the main dude. I do believe you could play. I love that. I absolutely believe you could play all those parts.

I support you 100% in that belief. And I love that you think that. Thank you. I'm glad we're all bitchy, bitchy. I wish you were I like a little bitchiness. I mean, I think part of the problem with the whole Sutton Foster age that we live in. Exactly. Well, Sutton Foster is like the queen of Broadway, and she has made it all about being like a nice person. Do you think? Well, who I don't know. Maybe she's I don't know, deep down inside. I'm sure she hates just like. Well, no, but I don't that's you're putting a lot on poor Sutton's shoulders, though. Well, I think Sutton has embodied this sort of kindness and sweetness, and she doesn't talk shit in not on interviews anyway. You know, Sutton has a real decorum about like her public persona.

You want Patty being. Yeah. I want I think I think Broadway is so sanitized, and I want people to like sh you know, say some shit. You know, talk about. I mean, in the old day, you know, Ethel Merman didn't like soft. What's the famous she went to the opening night of La Kaja Foe? Or what's the no of the torch song trilogy? And Harvey was like, Harvey Fierstein was like, what did you think? And he she was like, Well, I thought it was a piece of crap, but the audience went nuts. Yeah, there you go. I mean, that's what we need, you know. We have that, but that was a private conversation. And those kinds of conversations still happen. Now you have access, everyone feels like their opinion should be, you know, sent out into the world because everyone has a phone.

Well, well, I like people's opinions. It depends on the person. It depends on the person, but then you want to know more about the people with the opinions? You're not, I'm not saying like, yeah, I don't know. I don't. There are people that talk, please. Well, there's there's dumb people that say it, but I want the smart people to do it. Yeah, I don't have any. I mean No, we're not we know. And if you did say anything, you'd make us add it. No, because yeah, do I want to suffer for the rest of my life? For some stupid thing I said. Yeah, exactly. No, I don't. But um, how do we get onto that? Um You're asking about singers. Sing Yeah, oh, any girl singers. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the same people that everybody listened to.

When I went to I went to Interlocken uh arts camp for a summer, right before my senior year of high school, and that was like my first time I ever saw people listening to theater music in a way that felt both serious but also educational, and they just knew shit I didn't know. Uh and they started there were people that started like giving me CDs. Alexis Michelle. Alex Michael, it was theirs. Oh, yeah. I think he gave me a one of the um they he was giving me C Michael Arden was giving me CDs, Lauren Hooper. Uh the all the people from that uh he was the third person after Michael Earth. Her name's Lauren Hooper, she's not she's an actress. Uh and there's a bunch of people. I mean, there's so many.

Michael Arden didn't want to crush you and knock you out of the business. No, I played Riff, he was Tony. And he sang something from Ragtime. I love Michael Arden. I wish he was performing more. I love his voice so much. Yeah. He has an amazing voice. Uh what were some of the roles you played in high school? Oh, um We've established you were not at any point in working the musical. I was not in working the musical. That was too edgy for my community. Uh I was in what we did, uh uh anyone can whistle. Oh bizarre. That's a great part for you. You can that part for real. I played the sheriff of the smaller. You should play that part. Yeah, but we gotta let's fix the book. But that's a show for high school to do.

That's what I yeah. Wait, working was too edgy, but they did anyone can whistle. Yeah, but Ink Whistle is like heady and you know. And also everyone got upset at the director for choosing it, and then he was like, You're right, okay, fine, I'll do it. Wait, so there was a high school girl playing Cora Hoover Hooper. Of course. Fabulous. You know, uh everyone, we were all high schoolers. Like it was but that part, I mean simple learning simple, that song simple good luck. Oh boy. It's very simple. One is one or one is A, you're Clay Sky is blue, one is one, that A is two. No A is one and one is two. No, one that one is always both B. It was kind of amazing, you know, uh to Did you wish you were had that part?

No. What's his name? I didn't. I was a freshman. And and uh and to be honest, I wouldn't have known what to do. I was uh no, I was like, you know, I just gotten out of eighth grade and was like, oh high school, let's hope I can get into the look like the guy that played the part originally. Harry Guardino. Yeah, right. So praise that I remember that name. Uh I don't know about that. It seems kind of racist, like 'cause we're Italian. Yeah. Um kidding. Uh kidding. Uh freshman year or sophomore year we did um it was all the big Little Shop of Horrors. Are you seen more? Yes. Of course. Joseph the Amazing Technical Dream Code. Oh, Joseph. Yes. Godspell. Yes. Yes. Pippin. Leading player. Oh, oh.

How to scene business. Uh, Jason. That's a good part for you. Uh forum. One of the forums. Well you're great part. And then like we did the odd couple. I mean, did Othello in Pettiago? Wow. So I don't know Shakespeare. Very small town. Do you um like what does Stevie Wonder's and also all the great like jazz artists that you mentioned, like as you're doing these shows and like doing all this singing and getting these leads and all these musicals, does that influence you?

[40:01] Santino Fontana: Do you relate to the music that you sing in any way, uh, in connection with how you relate to music as an appreciator?

[40:10] Santino Fontana: Yeah, I think I mean it all ends up connecting well. All great acting is like jazz, and all, uh, great singing is, I guess, feels both, um, what's the word? Primal and surprising, I guess. I mean, I, uh, um, and an extension of that. So all great acting is like jazz.

[40:37] Ben Rimalower: What do you mean by that? Go into that.

[40:38] Santino Fontana: I mean that you can't, you're, the entire thing should feel improvisatory and as if it's happening for the first time, and you can only capture it in the bottle, which is what theater is every night. So, uh, and I play with, I sing with some jazz guys that I work with often, and you know, we have charts of like, here's the set that we're gonna do, but it's different every time. And in the same way that any performance is different every night. The same things are gonna happen, and yet it will be completely different. So the second you're able to accept that you can't get it right or wrong, that you're in a ballpark of some, which is what jazz is, you know, the structure and then you riff. Uh, so that having that as like a jazz pianist coming into acting was super helpful because it was like, oh right, there are no mistakes, there's only possibilities here.

And you can't, um, and it depends on the writer. I'm sure there are some writers who'll be like, that's a mistake. But it's our job to make it feel like it both is happening in the moment, in the second, and then they're also, I mean, I've done enough TV stuff or, uh, or even auditions for theater stuff where they end up having you improvise. And that is completely, feels like my music stuff is a good thing.

[41:46] Ben Rimalower: What about vice versa? Like how does the acting stuff inform doing music?

[41:52] Santino Fontana: Yeah, it's your point of view, what story you're telling, uh, what you want, what your relationship is, what your, yeah. I mean, obviously that makes sense when you're doing singing in the context of acting.

[42:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[42:03] Santino Fontana: You know, but what about concert?

[42:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, or I mean, even a concert, I mean, it seems like there's still, especially a musical theater performer, if you're singing show tunes, but you know, when you listen to Stevie or rock, pop, jazz artists, do you hear that? Do you see that in what they're doing?

[42:21] Santino Fontana: I mean, you see, you hear it in Stevie Wonder's. I mean, if you go to, if you w, there's an album he does, uh, there's a live album, Natural Wonder, where he sings, oh, what is it called?

[42:38] Santino Fontana: Ribbon in the Sky.

[42:39] Santino Fontana: Ribbon in the Sky. He sings a live version of Ribbon in the Sky where he and a saxophone player end up riffing back and forth, and then he ends up singing a high E flat above high C.

[42:40] Santino Fontana: Ribbon in the Sky for all.

[43:21] Santino Fontana: So he's a musician. I mean, what he's able to do vocally, just alone, is ridiculous. And he's, I saw him in concert in Seattle probably a decade ago. He was not young. Like we're talking, how old is he, 16?

[43:37] Santino Fontana: I mean, yeah. He's singing his face off all over the, and healthy.

[43:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[43:43] Santino Fontana: Like it's incredible. What he's doing just as an instrument is insane. Then the idea that he wrote it is insane. And then he wrote the, and he wrote the lyrics, and he's blind. Like it's incredible. Like it's just, I can't. Anyway, but his, the live performance, and then also seeing him live, you're able to understand. Yes, the, the recording is one, uh, uh, what's the word? Uh, um, interpretation of that lyric and that melody that he is comfortable saying, that's what I'm wanting to say in this moment. That's thrilling. And how, but how does that, how do you see the sort of acting perspective? Because it's totally, you have no idea what's gonna really happen. You know the beginning, the middle, and the end, but you don't know how you're gonna get there.

And the beginning, middle, and the end can change. The highs can be higher, the lows can be lower, depending on what's going on in the moment. With that sax player had played a different lick, he might have ended up doing a different, which is the same when a scene. Something drops, somebody says something differently, someone puts a different intention on a different line, and then it changes the scene. You know, you still have to get to the end, the self- the song, the same, the scene. Um, I love that. Like, that's great. Getting out of the idea of like we're pressing play and then we're done. We do what we've rehearsed and then we're done. You know, rehearsal just prepares you for the moment. And then you've got to be.

[45:05] Santino Fontana: What about like an enormous sort of machine? I mean, like Tootsie is this like huge production with so many people and so many elements and tech and, you know, it's huge, yeah.

[45:16] Santino Fontana: There's a lot. How, um, but that's the fun part to keep it alive in, you know, those shows where like you feel like, I'm not gonna say any names of shows, but there are shows where you go to them. I joke around like it's the show where like a bomb could go off, but the show would keep going.

[45:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[45:33] Santino Fontana: Like no one's really paying attention to what's happening. Um, I fight that in everything I'm in because I've been in those audiences where you're like, this is weird. Yeah. And to a certain extent, you can't always fight it. Um, live theater is live theater, and audiences are gonna do what they're gonna do. Sometimes we've had, you know, I mean, we had someone in the front row the other day, two children with a giant stuffed animal. Not, and I'm not talking like a stuffed animal. I'm talking like a giant, like they went to the wall and one, and it was bigger than them.

[46:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:10] Santino Fontana: And they're like peering over it with it on their laps, and at some points they hid underneath it, and then they're like picking it up. It's bright white, it's fluffy. Oh my god. I was like, what world am I in? And I had to know, okay, at which point, what are we gonna, we can't act like how many people are seeing this, first of all? And I'm like, if the, if the whole audience was seeing that, yeah, I would have had to involve, I would, you have to address it. Uh, but I was, I had to make a judgment call on the spot of like, no one can see it. It's just me. I'm the one that's bothered by it. No one else is seeing it, so we're just gonna keep going.

[46:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[46:46] Santino Fontana: Um, but no, that's the goal is to try to stay alive in every month of the whole thing so that it feels like anything can happen. Of course, anything can't happen.

[46:56] Santino Fontana: There's cues set, right? There are lines to be set, you know. But that's the goal. Do you have any fun stories of like when there's been a mishap on stage or like something that can't be?

[47:05] Santino Fontana: Yesterday my finger started bleeding, and I cut my finger, and I've been cutting, I've cut myself, I cut myself a lot more at the beginning of the process, and we don't know why. And we don't know where. So during, it's not like doing a quick change where you have to. It's during the, the fast. We think it's during the when Sandy's at the door and I have to get out of Dorothy and back into Michael, and you see me running around throwing boxes and stuff with Andy Groot Lucian who plays Jeff and Sarah Styles. Um, because she'll leave and I look down and this has happened a couple times. And yesterday I looked down at my finger was a little like was bleeding, but not a lot. And I was like, okay, so I just cut myself a little bit.

Then I looked down, like do keep doing the scene with Andy, and then I looked down and was like, and now my whole finger is like dripping. I'm like, oh my god. Oh, and so I start pre- and now this has happened before to me. So I start pressing my thumb on my finger to like stop the bleeding while we're doing the scene. Then I look down, it's now my whole hand. And so I just like hid my hand. Like, but I changed all of my stuff, and then I go downstairs to change it to Dorothy, and I just said, I'm bleeding. And they're like, where? And I was like, finger. I showed them, and they were like, I was like, it'll be fine. We don't have time. We don't have time. When I go back up as Dorothy, I'm supposed to enter with my hand up, and I just switch, I switched everything around.

And, uh, and there was a guy, I swear to God, there was a guy in the second row who clearly could tell that my hand was ripping his face. This isn't gonna be good for the podcast, but he had his hand over his face and he looked horrified but impressed. This is like, what's happening?

[48:41] Ben Rimalower: Um, that blood is unstoppable.

[48:44] Santino Fontana: Yeah, that's, and in Chicago, I think it was the second performance of the previews out of town. Uh, my mics are in my ears because I have to keep putting the wigs off and off and on. And then there are also mics in my wig. But, uh, uh, one in one of the quick changes on stage that happens in front of you, uh, the mic got caught on something, cut the top of my ear off, fled, and finished the whole show.

[49:09] Ben Rimalower: Your ear off.

[49:10] Santino Fontana: My ear at the top of my ear, there was a part of my skin that peeled off, and I kept doing the show, and I was like, God, I'm really sweating. And then I looked down. I was like, I am bleeding. And then people in the show started seeing it and being like, like what you do. We ended up working it into the show. I can't remember what we said. It was, it was funny though. And it didn't, the good thing is it didn't hurt.

[49:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[49:33] Santino Fontana: We got, we stopped the bleeding at intermission. I went to the street. Well, this show also, I mean, it's about show business. And so, I mean, it seems like you, there's a lot of, and this character being an actor, and I think you could have a lot of leeway to do any kind of thing.

[49:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, and you can't lie to them. If they see your ears lopped off, and people in the cast are like, what's going on? You gotta address it.

[49:59] Santino Fontana: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta deal with it.

[50:01] Ben Rimalower: What any Julie Halston stories?

[50:03] Santino Fontana: Oh, so many. Uh, Julie's, I'm trying to think. She's hilarious. The other day she was upset about something. She was like, I'm so angry, I could eat.

[50:15] Santino Fontana: Oh god, Julie.

[50:17] Ben Rimalower: Um, in addition to theater, you do a lot of television as well. Uh, what is that like? That switch from theater to TV, like being on a set as opposed to being on stage.

[50:27] Santino Fontana: It's, and did you have to adjust to that, or was that yes, 100%. Any anyone who says that it's not different, well, it depends. I think if people are, you know, every theater piece is different. A play at Rattlestick is gonna be completely different than doing this with 1600 seats and being able to articulate a thought to the person in the back row of the, of the mezzanine compared to somebody who's right in front of me holding a giant stuffed animal.

[50:54] Santino Fontana: Uh, and balancing singing and speaking in both worlds combining is completely different than being on a procedural on TV.

[51:05] Ben Rimalower: But what about something like Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, where it's such a Broadway musical type TV show?

[51:13] Santino Fontana: Well, the difference is first of all, you're not seeing anything live.

[51:16] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[51:17] Santino Fontana: You don't have, the biggest thing is that there's no rehearsal.

[51:20] Santino Fontana: Yeah. That's the biggest difference. There's not, no rehearsal, even for a show like that. Not like for, not what you, for example, uh, the song I could if I wanted to, which is one of one of the songs that I sang in Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, was, uh, one shot. The idea was we wanted to do it, they wanted to do it in one shot. It's like a two and a half minute, three minute song or something. I didn't get the final edit of the track of what we ended with. And keep in mind, you go in the studio, you, you're not memorized. You've, you're like learning it as you sing it because you don't have time. It's TV. You've got six days. So something like that having, being no rehearsal. Being the musician that you are must be incredibly useful in that situation.

[52:00] Santino Fontana: Absolutely. Well, Donna Lynn, I think is a perfect, Donna Lynn's work in that show, and the whole cast is great. But Donna Lynn is amazing in that show because she's able to, you're able to see all of her training.

[52:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[52:10] Santino Fontana: And I feel like if I haven't been to the, the accordion. She plays piano too. That's the musicians. But I mean, like, I imagine Tova Feldschuh had like, no, but I mean if she's got to go into a studio and sing that song. A song, she's gotta learn that day. It's different than you who can see a flat. They're not giving you sheet music. Because it's moving so fast.

[52:34] Santino Fontana: That's what I'm saying. So you're not getting, you're having no, it's complete, and in it's not even, it's not even just the songs. It's not even the musical numbers. Scenes are not rehearsed. If you're in, uh, uh, in Mozart in the Jungle, I played Mozart opposite, uh, a Gail Garcia Bernal, and he, there were some great like fun little small scenes. You know, he was, I can't, they were running late from some other scene, so they're like, we're just gonna shoot the rehearsal, you know, and then the that right before, uh, I went, we did it. The first season, uh, when I auditioned for it, I auditioned with a British accent with a German accent with an Austrian accent, which is basically a German accent, with, uh, and then also German by way of Britain.

[53:17] Santino Fontana: So yeah, it sounds but is that the stuff where you're like acting training?

[53:22] Ben Rimalower: Yes, of course.

[53:22] Santino Fontana: So you like you're not intimidated by the act.

[53:24] Ben Rimalower: No, that's exciting because it's like I can do I know what to do here. This isn't about like just walking in with an energy or being, you know.

[53:31] Santino Fontana: I was just like, no, no, no, this is like a skill thing, great, let's do it. So, but on the first season, they were like, we want him to be, we think he's British. He's British. I'm like, okay, alright, that's fine. And then it's also all in his imagination, so it doesn't matter. And then, but the last season when the day when he was like shooting a scene, and so we weren't gonna get to rehearse it, we're like, we're just gonna shoot the rehearsal live. Right before they were like, oh, we think he's German now. I was like, it's been three years. I was like, no, I've done a German accent, but I was like, and he's from Austria. I was like, you're sure, because in the first season he was British.

And they're like, yeah, yeah, no, we want to go German. So now we're gonna shoot the rehearsal, which I'm pretty sure is what they used. Well, we never rehearsed it. Uh you know, it's a it's a completely different art form. The camera does so much of the work, the director does so much of the work, 80% of your job is being in the frame and not lying. That's 80% of it. Those are the two things I can't do, though. But like then TV did not be pretty medium.

[54:28] Ben Rimalower: I love seeing you on the real house live.

[54:31] Santino Fontana: Thank you. But going back to the case. I know him. I know him.

[54:34] Ben Rimalower: Going back to Crazy Ex-Girlfriend though. Like, so you're in a studio, you to sing the song and get the track down first.

[54:40] Santino Fontana: So you're recording that because they're not giving it to the show.

[54:43] Ben Rimalower: Uh I think occasionally they would, but it was never it's never like what you would get.

[54:48] Santino Fontana: Right. Of course.

[54:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[54:49] Santino Fontana: So you've got you've recorded it and then they're editing it, so it might be a different set of lyrics in order than you did. Or a different inter you don't know how long you're gonna h which take they're gonna use that for you because now you're shooting the scene. You get that before you shoot, typically.

[55:03] Ben Rimalower: How long before?

[55:07] Santino Fontana: Mm-hmm. Depends. I mean, settled for me I had more because it was more uh uh choreography. Uh but I could if I wanted to, was uh I would have felt more comfortable with it earlier because it was done in one take. So I was up until like two in the morning that night, terrified, being like, I don't want to blow this. We only I knew we only had a certain amount of time in the morning to do it, and we hadn't rehearsed. So everything I did physically with walking across the street and there's traffic and there's you know, you have background actors walking, crossing the frame, someone's gonna throw you a ball, you're gonna catch a ball. And also trying to be, like we said, improvisatory. But that's how you rehearsed. That's what I saw for the choreography.

[55:47] Ben Rimalower: Well, it it's a but it's like here's where the camera's gonna be, walk through it while you're trying to remember the three song you don't know because you recorded it a week ago and you got the the take like a couple days ago or a day ago, and you've been shooting. So it's not like that it's the speed is the biggest thing, as well as every thought is read.

[56:00] Santino Fontana: Every thought is read, which is great because on stage you often have to worry, like you want to make sure intentions are clear, and you have to you have to think vocally, physically, emotionally. Which you do on TV as well, but you can also think all those things and all of it will line up. And it's not you're not being asked to use it's not if the frame's here, yeah, it doesn't matter what your leg is doing, right? Like no one cares, it's not telling the story. You know what I mean? Nipples up. That's all that like that's what often is where once the scene gets the science of TV is a completely different thing.

[56:42] Santino Fontana: One of my first TV auditions when I got to New York, for I had just done like Shakespeare at the Guthrie, and I came to New York, and they're like law and order audition. I was like, Oh, great. And it was like for a tech guy. It was like, and it was literally like three lines.

[56:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[56:54] Santino Fontana: And I was like, this is silly. I got this. This is nothing. I swear to God. It was like they're like, hey, welcome to New York. Yeah, great, you ready? Uh action. The blank the plate, the blank put I'm sorry, can we do that again? Like, yeah, sure, no, take your time. The blank plate with the shape, there's shavings on the the book. I could not say because there's all this jargon, and I thought, oh, it's no big deal. I totally got it. No, when you have no rehearsal, like good luck with these three lines that are something you would never say in real life, has nothing to do with your emotional life, has nothing to do with what you want. When you're on TV set, you're in rehearsal for a play. I'm I'm a generator of options. I'm a creative generator of options and ideas, and the director and the writers and the cast, we are all figuring out what is the best version.

[57:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[57:43] Santino Fontana: And then we're gonna breathe life into that version, and it's gonna morph a little bit, but that's what we're gonna do. On TV, you're being hired to make the decision of what the best version is. There's a great quote Oh, oh who some actor was saying, like, I could do it like this, or I could do it like this, or I could do it like this, and the director said to the actor, Yep, that's why we hired you.

[58:01] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[58:02] Santino Fontana: You choose which I feel in an Uber, you know. And if they don't like it, oh I could go up the highway and just figure it out. And if the director or the writers don't like it, then you can do it. The great thing is you can do, you know, you know you're gonna get at least or you hope you're gonna get at least two takes. Yeah, you may get more, and you're gonna give them options.

[58:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[58:19] Santino Fontana: Varied around what you think the core of what it is is, uh-huh, knowing that they hired you to do that work, you know. That's the big thing. In theater, it's like you've got a bunch of friends in a playground. On TV, you're coming in with your tool belt, you've already you know, you've got to like show up, get out of there.

[58:38] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[58:39] Santino Fontana: Because then you're out. Same with a movie. Isn't there isn't there some aspect though where it's more relaxing on TV?

[58:48] Ben Rimalower: It's there there's it's yeah, no team, a company doing a job because you don't have to it depends on the pressure of a Broadway opening, isn't that you know, yeah, but see, I would take the break. But here's the difference a Broadway opening, you're there every second of it. So the editing, you are you are an editor, you're doing all of it. You're there, so you know exactly what happened. Do you see yourself um going in that direction? Would you see yourself more writing or directing theater or writing producing television? Like, what do you think would be the angle for you?

[59:24] Santino Fontana: I like a lot of people with kids, you know, sometimes getting it more behind the camera because more I mean, I'm I'm always gonna be an actor. I think what you're saying is also true of anybody who is has the responsibility of telling a story or and being a major part of that story.

[59:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[59:43] Santino Fontana: Like for this, for example.

[59:45] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[59:45] Santino Fontana: There's nothing that came across new pages that we were not, it was not a discussion and a figuring figuring out of what is the best way of doing this. And there are people who have that relationship with TV, with showrunners on TV shows.

[59:58] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[59:58] Santino Fontana: So yeah, that's being a part of the. But also who not just to have that relationship with showrunners, but who have actually that role in the world. And being a creator, not a co-creator, yes. And there's, you know, I don't think Bernadette Peters in all of her roles. I mean, if you listen, if you get the uh like Blu-ray of Sunday in the Park with George, and like listen to the have you done this already?

[1:00:20] Ben Rimalower: I did because I was in it.

[1:00:21] Santino Fontana: I was that was my one of the Sam Bunch. Sam Bun Trock. Brilliant production. Audio track, the Blu-ray of Sunday in the Park of George is special features. It's um commentary. It's Son, yeah, the commentary is Son Time and Le Pine and Mandy and Bernadette. And of course, Mandy has a lot to say.

[1:00:42] Ben Rimalower: As do Stevie and I don't know, what do you call them? Jim?

[1:00:44] Santino Fontana: James.

[1:00:45] Ben Rimalower: James.

[1:00:46] Santino Fontana: James.

[1:00:48] Ben Rimalower: Um but Bernadette barely talks, except she has the best line of the whole thing because at one point they're saying something about um her old age makeup for um playing D in Act Two. Yes, yes. And um, and and James Le Pine is like, um, you know, I mean, this was and this is I don't know what point he was trying to make, there's not really a point, but he he said, I don't know, and it's before people were really doing that thing of like, you know, old age makeup makeup and casting people in older parts, and you know, not no one else there has any real knowledge about whether that's true or not, so they all just cut her quiet. And James Pine says, Well, I think so. I mean, were you wearing old age makeup?

And she's like, the first thing she said, and this is like the middle of act two, so it's like two hours and ten minutes into it, for that's like, I was wearing old age makeup. Dick. I love her. But um, wonderful. But God bless Brandon, she's not somebody who's gonna be a big talker with opinions and developing the character in the show. You know, I think we don't know that. I I don't I think that's uh safe to say, even if it's not true of her, there certainly are actors who could be high wattage stars who just aren't interested in that kind of collaboration, and you know, that's not what they do, or even somebody like Patty who's a lot more opinionated, Patty's not gonna transition to being a director.

[1:02:09] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[1:02:10] Santino Fontana: Whereas I could see that for you.

[1:02:11] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:02:12] Santino Fontana: And I would like to see you do that.

[1:02:13] Ben Rimalower: Really? You would like me, you want me to stop acting?

[1:02:15] Santino Fontana: No, I I do not. I don't think you should direct theater because then you'd have to give it up. But I think you could be a creative force behind the scenes. You could be starring in and a creative on TV and how you said that, thank you. I think that about you, I think that about a lot of actors, actually.

[1:02:30] Ben Rimalower: But new, I would think at the end of the I have a lot of ideas and things like that. I I'm always pitching writer friends of mine, yeah.

[1:02:36] Santino Fontana: Like Steven or I'm always pitching writer friends, like, hey, I have this idea. You want to write it? And they're always like, no.

[1:02:41] Ben Rimalower: You write it.

[1:02:41] Santino Fontana: Exactly. You do it.

[1:02:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:02:43] Santino Fontana: Like, no, why it's so much responsibility. The great thing about being an actor, you get to come in, pretend the floor is lava, and then get the hell out.

[1:02:50] Ben Rimalower: But that's why I didn't say theater. I mean, writing a play is like a nightmare. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, you know. But like, but for you to have a TV series where you are one of the producers and you collaborate on the scripts, I think and you're the star, I think that's a natural transition for me.

[1:03:06] Santino Fontana: From your mouth to God's giant case of creative decisions.

[1:03:11] Ben Rimalower: Creative decisions. We have a you're gonna hate this game that we play with all of our guests.

[1:03:14] Santino Fontana: Okay.

[1:03:15] Ben Rimalower: You're gonna hate it.

[1:03:17] Santino Fontana: And we're not giving you the softer, easy version we give someone.

[1:03:19] Ben Rimalower: Okay, go.

[1:03:21] Santino Fontana: You know the game Maryfuck Kill.

[1:03:22] Ben Rimalower: Oh god.

[1:03:23] Santino Fontana: Yes, I do.

[1:03:24] Ben Rimalower: Our game is called Dolly Concert Kill.

[1:03:27] Santino Fontana: Dolly?

[1:03:28] Ben Rimalower: Dolly.

[1:03:29] Santino Fontana: So you we're gonna give you three performers, and you're gonna choose one that you would like to see starring in a Broadway revival of Hello Dolly, one that you would like to see in concert, and one that you, and we will be putting this on the internet, would like to kill.

[1:03:46] Santino Fontana: I'm not okay, go ahead.

[1:03:48] Ben Rimalower: Let's go.

[1:03:49] Santino Fontana: And I have how many?

[1:03:50] Ben Rimalower: Three.

[1:03:50] Santino Fontana: Three. So I think it should be um uh Julie. Joanna Gleason, uh Julie Halston, and Meryl Streep.

[1:03:58] Ben Rimalower: Perfect.

[1:04:00] Santino Fontana: Julie Halston, Joanna Gleason, Meryl Streep.

[1:04:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:04:03] Santino Fontana: I'm friends and close with both Joe and Job game. You know, no, but I can't kill either of them.

[1:04:11] Ben Rimalower: I know them. I love them.

[1:04:12] Santino Fontana: Well, then you'll have to choose one of them too.

[1:04:14] Ben Rimalower: I want to see, you know what? Joanna Gleason has a concert that's coming up. I know that she's doing that I want to go see.

[1:04:20] Santino Fontana: Have her concert.

[1:04:21] Ben Rimalower: So Fantasy Becomes Reality, yeah.

[1:04:22] Santino Fontana: Check there. Joanna Gleason in concert. I would pay good money to see Julie Halston and see.

[1:04:28] Ben Rimalower: Yes in a fraction of Allah Dolly.

[1:04:31] Santino Fontana: And I don't want to actually kill Meryl Streep, but I would love to be in a scene where Meryl Streep dies in a movie.

[1:04:40] Ben Rimalower: You're so sweet.

[1:04:41] Santino Fontana: Because Meryl's like the best actress living actress, easily.

[1:04:44] Ben Rimalower: I don't want to kill her.

[1:04:45] Santino Fontana: I want to see her like dying.

[1:04:47] Ben Rimalower: Have you seen her on stage?

[1:04:48] Santino Fontana: Yes.

[1:04:48] Ben Rimalower: I saw Seagull.

[1:04:52] Santino Fontana: Uh and I've seen her on I saw her on a thing at Lincoln Center.

[1:04:57] Ben Rimalower: Like uh the cherry.

[1:05:00] Santino Fontana: No.

[1:05:01] Ben Rimalower: Not not of mine.

[1:05:01] Santino Fontana: Not that I've been in.

[1:05:03] Ben Rimalower: She will.

[1:05:04] Santino Fontana: But she wouldn't use that because of.

[1:05:07] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:05:08] Santino Fontana: Yeah, she can't support it.

[1:05:09] Ben Rimalower: No, I've she's.

[1:05:10] Santino Fontana: Did you see little big little eyes?

[1:05:12] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:05:15] Santino Fontana: She's everything.

[1:05:15] Ben Rimalower: She's everything.

[1:05:16] Santino Fontana: Those giant tears behind those glasses. Unbelievable.

[1:05:18] Ben Rimalower: And undeniable.

[1:05:21] Santino Fontana: Unstoppable.

[1:05:22] Ben Rimalower: Amen. What a perfect place to end. Santino, we thank you.

[1:05:24] Santino Fontana: Thank you, Santino.

[1:05:27] Ben Rimalower: Thank you guys.

[1:05:31] Daniel Nolen: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be. Come back next week for downtown goddess Bridget Everett coming in to chat about Princess Purple Rain. Other upcoming guests include playwright slash songwriter Michael R. Jackson, Broadway star Telly Leung, and legendary columnist Michael Musto. This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Special thanks to Emmy Winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the broken records theme song. Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all socials. That's Ben Rimalower. B E N R I M A L O W E R. And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A. Because Nolan with an A isn't it.