This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:25] Ben Rimalower: So, let’s get into it!

[0:40] Daniel Nolen: Excuse me? I cannot hear you. Are you in a ball gag?

[0:44] Ben Rimalower: No. It's a It's this fucking mask, but I don't—what do I do?

[0:49] Daniel Nolen: I take it off.

[0:50] Ben Rimalower: I don't know where to put it. I don't want it to get all gross.

[0:52] Daniel Nolen: Well, it's fortunate that we have a solution to that now because our first sponsor, Mask Motel, is the solution to your mask-taking-off-with-nowhere-to-put-it problems.

[1:05] Daniel Nolen: Don't get it all disgusting, germy, and covety in your pocket with the rest of the bad shit. Put it in the Mask Motel.

[1:11] Ben Rimalower: It's like a little wallet. It's washable, reusable, has an antimicrobial lining to keep your mask fresh and germ-free when you're on the go.

[1:22] Daniel Nolen: It has a cute little keychain ring that you can put on your purse, on your person, on your keys, whatever you want.

[1:30] Ben Rimalower: It comes in fashion colors, y'all.

[1:33] Daniel Nolen: Yes, five different color options. Right now, they're running a special five for a hundred. It's a perfect stocking stuffer.

[1:56] Ben Rimalower: Get it on maskmotel.com.

[1:56] Daniel Nolen: Mask.com.

[1:56] Ben Rimalower: Do not bring up mask.com.

[1:56] Daniel Nolen: Mask.com is my personal website.

[1:54] Ben Rimalower: Yes, honey. Get it on Maskmotel.com.

[1:59] Daniel Nolen: And right now, if you enter the code Patty, that's P-A-T-T-I at checkout, you get an immediate 10% off for being a Broken Records listener.

[2:10] Ben Rimalower: Oh my God. You can't afford not to buy these.

[2:13] Daniel Nolen: You can't. So go to maskmotel.com and get your life.

[2:18] Ben Rimalower: Well, for real now, y'all, for the cheap seats. Can you see okay over there at the bar?

[2:21] Daniel Nolen: Can you?

[2:27] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Patty LaPone. I'm Le Mouche. I'm here to begin the masterclass. I don't know what I'm talking about.

[2:32] Daniel Nolen: Welcome to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World, Broadway Podcast Network, and very possibly you can't prove it's not true, Broadway on Demand.

[2:41] Ben Rimalower: Yes. I am your lovely co-host Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with good old reliable Daniel Nolen.

[2:48] Daniel Nolen: Daniel Nolen.

[2:49] Ben Rimalower: Daniel Nolen.

[2:50] Daniel Nolen: I am here. I am queer, and I am bringing you Christmas cheer.

[2:55] Ben Rimalower: You sure are. You brought the Christmas cheer right into my life, girl.

[3:00] Daniel Nolen: Really? That's the truth. You know, I'm really just embracing fully my basic bitchness this year.

[3:08] Ben Rimalower: I mean, as we talk right now, I'm burning my Bath and Body Works twisted peppermint 14-ounce candle.

[3:14] Daniel Nolen: And I just turned off my fireplace on my TV. I have the digital fireplace from Netflix going most days.

[3:23] Ben Rimalower: Wow. So we need a little Christmas more than ever this year, you know?

[3:26] Daniel Nolen: Yes, we do. And on that note, we should begin this episode by saying rest in peace to Broadway goddess Rebecca Luker, who passed far too young from ALS, only 59 years old, and it is really such a devastating loss.

[3:48] Ben Rimalower: You know, I got a text message about it just as we were starting to record. And I thought, you know, our podcast is sort of like archival in a way, especially these quarantine streams when we talk about something old, like today's episode is about the fabulous movie White Christmas.

[4:05] Daniel Nolen: So, you know, we want this episode to be for any point in time. And because we do have a live stream video show next year, some year that's on every Tuesday at noon.

[4:15] Ben Rimalower: So it's, you know, that's maybe a place to address current events. But I just thought, you know, Rebecca Luker is such a part of the canon of Broadway history, definitive Broadway.

[4:29] Daniel Nolen: And we have to first of all mention her every chance we get and preserve her memory for all time.

[4:36] Ben Rimalower: And, you know, there's just we'll never be not the right time to remember just the glory of her. And I'm so grateful that I got to see her on stage in several musicals, including, I guess the first thing I saw her in was The Secret Garden that she was just so ethereal and singular in that.

[5:00] Daniel Nolen: And the last thing I saw her in was something totally different, and she was just really wonderful and moving was when she replaced Judy Kuhn on Broadway in Fun Home.

[5:10] Ben Rimalower: Oh, that's right.

[5:11] Daniel Nolen: I'm really sad I didn't see her in that. I feel like I never saw her on stage.

[5:15] Ben Rimalower: Well, this would have been a great one because she was, you know, obviously she sang it gorgeously. I mean, Judy Kuhn, like Rebecca, is a soprano, but Judy's also a belter, and that part was not exactly like a coloratura, you know, particularly like lyric soprano kind of role.

[5:33] Daniel Nolen: Any opera fans, classical music people out there are like turning over, you know, they're rolling their eyes for like coloratura and lyric are different things. You don't know what you're talking about.

[5:44] Ben Rimalower: But I'm just saying, you know, it was not that kind of a part in that vein of like classical style singing. However, of course, Rebecca sang it with absolute purity and beauty.

[5:56] Daniel Nolen: And what was, you know, not surprising, I suppose, but you know, just really gratifying was what a terrific acting performance it was.

[6:04] Ben Rimalower: And I think that maybe sometimes because the beauty of her voice lent to her often being cast in these sort of, you know, I don't want to say bland, but you know, these ingenue roles that were maybe less dynamic.

[6:16] Daniel Nolen: It was really wonderful to see her just give a really gutsy, edgy, and compelling acting performance in something modern like that.

[6:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, absolutely.

[6:28] Daniel Nolen: Well, I mean, I've seen plenty of clips of her. I think we mentioned her a few episodes of our live stream ago on Name That Belt.

[6:36] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and just a singular voice, a singular talent, and she will be missed. Rest in peace, Rebecca Luker.

[6:42] Daniel Nolen: We'll definitely be talking about her more on Tuesday on the live stream.

[6:47] Ben Rimalower: All right. Well, with that said, let's get into our film this week.

[6:52] Daniel Nolen: Okay, so what did you think of White Christmas? Was this your first time?

[6:55] Ben Rimalower: This wasn't your first time watching it.

[6:57] Daniel Nolen: Here's the deal. I’m really glad I watched it. I, as I've learned to try to be a better collaborator with you, even when you suggest something I'm not that psyched for, I tried to just roll over and take it like a bitch.

[7:15] Ben Rimalower: And I didn't—I believe I did not say boo when you said White Christmas.

[7:22] Daniel Nolen: But I was not that psyched for it, and I really enjoyed it. I saw it once before, which was like maybe 15 years ago, when my then roommate Brian Cruey, shout out to Brian Cruey, all the Brian Cruey fans, had made me watch it because it was his favorite movie.

[7:44] Ben Rimalower: He, like yourself, is like a good Christian boy from a small town in Kentucky.

[7:49] Daniel Nolen: And we were so drunk and stoned, I'm sure, when we watched it at that time in like 2003 or 2004 or whatever.

[8:01] Ben Rimalower: That I don't remember that much about it, except that I already knew a lot of the songs, which were Irving Berlin standards, like "Sisters" and of course "White Christmas" and "Blessings" and "Blue Skies."

[8:20] Daniel Nolen: Yes, totally.

[8:20] Ben Rimalower: And so that, but I was not that psyched to watch it again, and it continues to surprise me that the movie that all these like white American Christians feel is so—they feel so connected to as your Christmas holiday movie is this movie like about these like Jews in show business.

[8:48] Daniel Nolen: I mean, this gay Jew, Danny Kaye, just like, you know.

[8:54] Ben Rimalower: So that was like my first thought.

[8:58] Daniel Nolen: Well, my first thought when it started, I have to say, was just like rolling the credits. I was like, "Yay, Mary Wicks." I get so excited when Mary Wicks is in something.

[9:07] Ben Rimalower: Mary Wicks is fantastic in this movie, and she has a pretty big role. I mean, she's such a character actress that a lot of times she's just a little bit part.

[9:16] Daniel Nolen: But she had, I mean, she's really the one who kind of initiates the huge plot twist at the end, the big misunderstanding that results in, you know, the conflict between Rosemary and Bing.

[9:28] Ben Rimalower: Which I have to say, maybe because my standards were so low after Bells Are Ringing, I did not feel like this was as stupid of an old school movie plot as that had felt like.

[9:42] Daniel Nolen: Also just on Mary Wicks. Well, first of all, my most recent love for Mary Wicks that was on the QuaranStreams.

[9:48] Ben Rimalower: Oh no, it wasn't on the QuaranStreams.

[9:50] Daniel Nolen: We did—I was like, do we QuaranStream Postcards from the Edge? We did not.

[9:53] Ben Rimalower: It feels like we did.

[9:56] Daniel Nolen: But she plays Shirley MacLaine's mother in that.

[9:58] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I forgot that.

[10:00] Daniel Nolen: But of course, she's in a million things that we all grew up on in sitcoms and movies.

[10:05] Ben Rimalower: And not for nothing, that role has been beefed up in the touring stage version of White Christmas that they do all over the country.

[10:14] Daniel Nolen: That's the part that Lorna Luft plays, or Ruth Williamson, Pamela Myers, those broads.

[10:14] Ben Rimalower: Those broads.

[10:23] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[10:23] Ben Rimalower: Well, I'm glad to hear your take on it and to hear you say it doesn't seem stupid because I mean, I've seen this movie so many times.

[10:32] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I watch it every year, but multiple times a year. You know, I've seen it so many times, I just leave it on in the background sometimes.

[10:38] Ben Rimalower: I mean, maybe besides Some Like It Hot, I think this is the movie I've seen the most, probably out of any movie ever.

[10:46] Daniel Nolen: Just because I grew up watching it so much.

[10:48] Ben Rimalower: So now I can't really see it objectively, you know, just because I'm so—most of the time I just like it for nostalgic purposes.

[10:55] Daniel Nolen: So it's great to hear kind of an objective viewpoint.

[11:01] Ben Rimalower: Because I just love again. I was like, maybe, you know, maybe I'm just—I'm seeing it with rose-colored glasses because I'm so sentimental about it.

[11:08] Daniel Nolen: But I mean, I think I'm always just drawn in immediately again. And the huge production numbers, and I think Rosemary's such a great actress in it.

[11:17] Ben Rimalower: And she's great.

[11:18] Daniel Nolen: She's really great. And I really—I mean, I enjoyed all their performances.

[11:22] Ben Rimalower: Like, I don't know why I'm feeling kind of snobby towards Bing Crosby. Like, what did he ever do to me? What have I ever seen him in?

[11:27] Daniel Nolen: But just like I'm never like, "Ooh, yay, Bing Crosby." But like he's great.

[11:33] Ben Rimalower: Danny Kaye is like so great. Rosemary is absolutely just like flawless.

[11:38] Daniel Nolen: And like Vera-Ellen, I don't know, I don't think I have another—well, I guess I've seen her in On the Town, but I didn't really love that movie.

[11:46] Ben Rimalower: But I love her in this. I think she's so like just gorgeous and sassy and great.

[11:52] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it was such good casting because, you know, Vera was such a dancer, I mean, just an amazing dancer.

[11:59] Ben Rimalower: She was also, I think, in the Call Me Madam movie, which I haven't seen.

[12:02] Daniel Nolen: Yes, she is, but that movie has one star only.

[12:06] Ben Rimalower: Okay.

[12:07] Daniel Nolen: But you know, Vera was this amazing, amazing dancer, and Rosemary was an amazing singer who didn't really dance.

[12:16] Daniel Nolen: So, you know, Vera gets all these amazing numbers where she's featured the featured dancer, and then Rosemary actually did the singing for both of them. They dubbed Vera's lip syncing with Rosemary's vocals, and of course, Rosemary also gets her huge numbers to shine.

[12:36] Ben Rimalower: Love You Didn't Do Right by Me.

[12:38] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes, yes, yes. In the big production numbers, she gets the kind of intro bit, just kind of standing there laughing and talking with the two guys. And I mean, I think I've always kind of had a bad taste in my mouth. Back to the lip sync for a second. So you're saying to me that in this movie, you hear both Rosemary Clooney, Vera Ellen, Bing Crosby, and Danny Kaye all lip sync to Rosemary Clooney's pre-recorded voice.

[13:07] Ben Rimalower: This movie is like RuPaul's Drag Race. Rosemary just did the vocals for herself and Vera. I mean, they the guys lip sync to sisters.

[13:19] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I see what you're saying.

[13:21] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes, absolutely. They're all lip syncing Rosemary.

[13:24] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah. And you know, this was Rosemary. I think there's that movie Red Garters, which I've never seen, but this is Rosemary's really only big film credit. And I've always kind of had a bad taste in my mouth for being, even though I think they were close. But I think, you know, before Rosemary was cast in this, they thought she was too old for the part.

[13:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:48] Daniel Nolen: And Bing was like, you know, 20 years older than her anyway. So they literally wanted someone younger than her.

[13:55] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[13:56] Daniel Nolen: So for some reason that always put a bad taste in my mouth. But, you know, Bing was a huge singing star. And you know, he sounds great, but for my money, Rosemary and Danny Kaye are just like the heart and soul of this piece.

[14:10] Ben Rimalower: I mean, are you attracted to Danny Kaye in this movie?

[14:14] Daniel Nolen: No. I mean, I'm not like sexually, but that's what I mean, sexually. I mean, I'm very drawn to him as like, oh my god, he's a star.

[14:24] Ben Rimalower: The career is, yeah, yeah. Oh my god, do you sound like them? What does she say?

[14:28] Daniel Nolen: Which one? It doesn't matter.

[14:30] Ben Rimalower: They're both famous.

[14:31] Daniel Nolen: What does it matter? They're both famous. My real dream for this, because it's just got I love that like showbiz talk that they constantly engage in.

[14:39] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, constant.

[14:40] Daniel Nolen: I want like a downtown, like reverse gender production. Like I think Molly Pope should be like Danny Kaye.

[14:48] Ben Rimalower: I mean, should be Bing Crosby and Natalie Joy Johnson should be Danny Kaye.

[14:53] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god, amazing, amazing. Who would be the gender-reversed girls who would play like the males who would play the Rosemary and Vera parts?

[15:04] Ben Rimalower: Like um, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang.

[15:08] Daniel Nolen: Perfect, perfect. Anyway, so I mean, and I think, you know, speaking more about Rosemary, she's such an amazing singular voice, but I think she's such a great actress in this movie. I just think her act, I mean, she plays that kind of steely distrustful, independent Betty so well.

[15:31] Ben Rimalower: And you know, whenever busybody Emma overhears, you know, the wrong patch of conversation on the phone and then tells Betty. I mean, I always have to just you know tell myself that it's all gonna work out because I get so mad at that part. But, you know, then Rosemary immediately just turns against Bing and does her own thing. And I just think, you know, she is so committed to that and she plays it so well that their chemistry is just like heightened, heightened, heightened.

[15:59] Ben Rimalower: Until the end, of course, when she shows up to do the army number, and he's so happy.

[16:03] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[16:04] Ben Rimalower: I love it so much. And I mean, it's the technicolor of it all. Now that I watch it, you know, is it Vista color?

[16:11] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, VistaVision.

[16:13] Ben Rimalower: The first film in VistaVision.

[16:15] Daniel Nolen: Ooh. About the songs, like just like as a musical theater person, like I mean, I love that I'm trying to figure out like what the world of this movie is. Like, because like they don't really sing like it's what is it, I forget which means what. Like the songs are not diegetic or the songs, no the songs are diegetic.

[16:37] Ben Rimalower: It's one or the other.

[16:39] Daniel Nolen: Because they sing them like as their characters performing, although they definitely take liberties where like they just like will perform anytime. Hey, you want to hear a song I wrote? Let me sing two verses. And then she's like, let's have an emotional conversation and then I'll jump in on the third verse.

[16:53] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, right.

[16:55] Daniel Nolen: But like, um, but like they live in this world where every song that you could hear anywhere happens to be written by Irving Berlin. And I guess he wrote like a couple of these for the movie, but they also just felt free to just like pull from the Irving Berlin, just like any old Irving Berlin song they wanted.

[17:12] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[17:13] Daniel Nolen: Um that little montage at the beginning, they throw in a lot of um.

[17:13] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that's that's the songs I was trying to think of that I couldn't like with just like blue skies and just like everything.

[17:22] Daniel Nolen: Yes, heat wave, thank you, thank you. Um and um it's just like can you imagine if there was like just like a um like, you know, a Bobby and Kristen Lopez movie musical where like randomly there's songs from like Book of Mormon, Frozen.

[17:41] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, right.

[17:42] Daniel Nolen: I mean, it kind of reminds me of like what was Till the Clouds Roll By and that's the it's the Jerome Kern. But that's like a biopic.

[17:49] Ben Rimalower: Right, right.

[17:51] Daniel Nolen: He's actually a character in it. But um yeah, I mean, the Wallace and Davis team or whatever, it's so many movies, musical movies back in the day did this. It's like they were about composers, you know, like they wrote about show business. It wasn't like um the opposite of diegetic, whatever that is, where it's you know, like Yentl, like she's just singing by herself in a field, you know? It's like actually about show business, the process of putting on a show, casting chorus girls, all of that.

[18:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[18:25] Daniel Nolen: Um, and the thing I think this film gives it that extra little layer is that it asks the question, you know, through Betty's character, kind of can you be a good person and be in show business, or you know, do you have to have like this selfish angle, like the thing that Bing brings up at the beginning. Like, do you have to have an agenda? Are you always looking to get something, or can you love someone despite their fame or connections?

[18:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, and she seems to be kind of the one pulling for that theme. And then of course it gets all fucked up because of Busybody Mary Wicks. But um, yeah, I mean, I just and the thing I love about it, you know I'm a sucker for anything on a train, plane, or boat. And the fact that there's a huge sequence on this cozy little, you know, passenger train when they sit in the diner car and sing snow and you know, drink their like milkshakes or whatever.

[19:21] Daniel Nolen: I love that on this train, like you buy like a sleeping berth that's like, you know, bunk beds like in the public hallway, but then you get a private living room.

[19:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. It's I mean back then things trains were all the rage back then in things.

[19:39] Daniel Nolen: The train is sold out.

[19:40] Ben Rimalower: There are no tickets.

[19:40] Daniel Nolen: There are no tickets, there are no tickets. Oh, you can pay and just sit in the club car, which is completely empty all night.

[19:46] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, instead of like, you know, like RuPaul's Drag Race on tour style, just sleeping in a bunk bed with a curtain. Anyone could come by and disturb you.

[19:55] Daniel Nolen: I mean, and the fact that the price of the admission or the price of the train is um it's so expensive. It's like almost a hundred bucks. I'm like, back then that was like 700 bucks. I mean, train travel was not cheap.

[20:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, what is up with that?

[20:11] Daniel Nolen: I was always I'm always so shocked at that. But um, I love that. I want to like do a deep dive in like what things cost in the old days. Like, like, why were they like, oh, for a nickel, you could have a night out on the town. But like you can't afford to go to Vermont on the train in the club car.

[20:30] Ben Rimalower: Exactly.

[20:30] Daniel Nolen: Well, I've always been told 1950s, because of I know this because of I Love Lucy, in this movie was made in the 50s as well. They say multiply it by maybe more nowadays, but you know, back in the early aughts, they said multiply it by seven, and that will give you kind of like today's value of what things cost.

[20:49] Ben Rimalower: Um, so you know, on Lucy or whatever, they're always like, Oh, like, can I have you know five dollars to get a new pair of shoes? And it's like, well, that would be what, 30 nowadays. But then there's also like weird things like inflation and like or you know, things like real estate markets where like houses would have cost like five thousand dollars that are now a million dollars, you know.

[21:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[21:12] Ben Rimalower: Um anyway, but that's you know what keeps me coming back to this movie is just the cozy interior scenes, the you know, Vermont Inn, surrounded by snow, with you know, Vera Ellen and the general and his granddaughter Susan, and everyone's just so happy and cozy.

[21:30] Daniel Nolen: And Vera Ellen and Danny Kaye fall in love. They come up with this harebrained scheme, which is just so cruel. Just like gaslighting Betty into thinking they're together and she needs to go off and find a man. And uh yeah, I mean, I just love it. It just makes me feel so cozy and like I'm like I'm there with them.

[21:50] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[21:51] Daniel Nolen: I mean really what it's about for me.

[21:53] Ben Rimalower: Oh, interesting. So when you watch this movie, do you feel like you're hanging out with your friends?

[22:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, kind of. I mean, again, I've seen it so much. It's the same reason I love watching Murder, She Wrote, especially the Cabot Cove episodes, because it's like I know Jessica's apartment. I know she's like, you know, brewing coffee, and Seth's about to come over for a slice of pie. And it's just like homey and familiar. So when I put on this movie, it's the same thing. I've seen it so many times that it's like, oh, okay, time to go back to the club car, time to go to the nightclub in Miami. And it feels like stuff that you know we would do going to Provincetown or Fire Island, you know, it's like um resorty and vacation-y, and the whole movie is that the whole movie's like a vacation trip, basically.

[22:40] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I love in the early in the movie when Danny Kaye and Vera Ellen are dancing and they just kind of like waltz right out of the room onto like the terrace. And I mean, it's so cheesy because it's like the backdrop for like the beach in Miami is like it's like an indoor swimming pool with like it looks more like fake snow than fake sand, but there's like palm trees and stuff.

[23:08] Daniel Nolen: But yeah, but it's kind of like that magical thing that we talk about like like in the song Begin the Beguine of like um down by the shore and orchestras playing, you know.

[23:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[23:20] Daniel Nolen: I love that. It starts out in you know, southern Florida and then it goes up to Vermont. So you get all the seasons, all the temps, and um I don't know, it's just in the again, the technicolor of it all, it's just a very warm, bright, happy film. You know, and they always get a little teary and misty whenever the general comes in and all his men are there on Christmas Eve to see him and support him.

[23:48] Ben Rimalower: And he was a good character.

[23:50] Daniel Nolen: I um I also like uh what do you the minstrel thing? They sort of like I mean, I wonder I'm I mean, thank God they at least just do it with like red gloves, you know.

[24:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Well, so this movie was kind of based on Holiday Inn, which came you know before it and also starred Bing Crosby and and uh the song White Christmas was originally sung in that film.

[24:16] Daniel Nolen: I saw that on Broadway, but I've never seen that movie.

[24:20] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I've only seen the movie once, and uh some people think it's superior just because it was first, and you know, it's a classic black and white film, but they do the minstrel number and it's total blackface.

[24:33] Ben Rimalower: And uh it's like a you know extended blackface number, so it's very uncomfortable watching it now. I mean, I I it's interesting that they, you know, I I wouldn't have necessarily known whether to guess in 1954 when they made White Christmas, if they would have um sort of, you know, uh what do you call it? Like whitewash the blackface, so to speak. Um with the, you know, I mean, because they just they just they all wear red gloves. And um, it seems like maybe like some of them might be wearing a little extra like tanning lotion, but I I don't know if that's really spray on tan. Uh like Vera Ellen's legs were like really dark in that number.

[25:20] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah.

[25:21] Ben Rimalower: But you know, blackface is a thing, and like uh that's not blackface, you know. Um they are celebrating a minstrel show, but like, you know, certainly for like a kid watching that, like I don't think you would necessarily have any idea what it's about.

[25:35] Daniel Nolen: No, I never knew what that was until like, you know, however old I was when I figured what that meant. But as a kid watching it, I had no idea what a minstrel show was. I I didn't check, but I'm pretty sure that when they do like the Lorna Left tour nowadays, it like does not have that number.

[25:51] Ben Rimalower: Well, there is that, and then I think in in uh Holiday Inn, there's a it it spans the whole year. It's not just a Christmas movie. It's like they start with like Lincoln's birthday uh in February, and and someone sings a song about Abraham Lincoln, and um in this movie, there's a line Danny Kaye says he's like that's let's try the Abraham number, which in in uh uh Holiday Inn, I remember it being a little bit problematic, sung sung by a black actress. And um, but in in White Christmas, it's just kind of a quick dance number with no words at all, just Vera Ellen and one of those chorusmen.

[26:34] Daniel Nolen: Speaking of uh that those chorusmen, how hot how hot is that lead dancer guy?

[26:43] Ben Rimalower: Oh, so much. Uh I think his name is John John Brasha or Brassia or something. There's also one in one of the four in Love You Didn't Do Right with Rosemary at the Carousel Club. He went on to be in uh he played a big role in the West Side Story musical. I can't remember which which uh which guy, but um, but yeah, I always like to watch in these old movies, I all these chorusmen, I'm like, I wonder which, I wonder how many of these were quote straight and stayed straight their whole career, and how many like were secretly having you know gay affairs on the side.

[27:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, it's funny because this guy, like I looked him up, and like he definitely was like straight. He actually kind of seemed like convincingly straight because he was married to like a bunch of different women over his life. I don't know. I don't know why I consider that to be convincingly straight, but it's like a playboy.

[27:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. But um, but I mean, I the first I didn't even know he was gonna be a dancer. In his first appearance in White Christmas, he's they're just like unpacking at the resort, and he like barks out something about like, you know, uh you know, girl dancers are in the cabins on the left, or I don't know, you know, whatever he says.

[27:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[27:55] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh it's like um he uh I I I just thought I I was like, oh hi, company manager.

[28:07] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[28:08] Ben Rimalower: And and he just, I mean, if I have ever seen what do they say, gay faces when you look like you just smelled fresh baked cookies.

[28:14] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[28:17] Ben Rimalower: I was like, I want to get all up in his Nestle toll house girl. Honey, just you just smelled fresh baked uh sandwiches and buttermilk.

[28:26] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes.

[28:27] Ben Rimalower: But um, but then and then he turned and then I was so happy that he turned out to be in so much more of the movie. But um yeah, I I I always notice all I mean, and the thing is, I mean, some of it's a little or a lot unbelievable. It's like they're at this little Vermont Inn, and you know, this little stage in this hall, and then it it cuts to these huge musical numbers, and it's like just like hundreds and hundreds of people on stage. You're like, that doesn't seem uh logical.

[29:01] Daniel Nolen: Um, I mean, again, uh, you know, I always think of uh, you know, the Ziegfeld numbers from like funny girl, His Love Makes Me Beautiful. I mean, back then they did not uh you know, no expense spared.

[29:13] Ben Rimalower: Totally. They like to have a complete uh chock full stage of people, props, costumes, everything. Well, look, even when the two sisters uh when Rosemary Clooney and Vera Ellen show up at the resort for their gig, which is then canceled initially. They're you know, they're told we'll pay you your 50% cancellation fee, but there's literally nobody at the resort. And they're like, you know, no, they wind up saying they're gonna do it anyway, because Bing Crosby and everything, but like, but that show has like a full band, like just the two girls. Like, like was that band gonna get the cancellation fee? Like, does the band just like on retainer at the hotel all the time?

[29:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, they're just always there. I just love that old show business.

[29:56] Ben Rimalower: Oh, also back to like the whole like Jewishness of it all. Like one thing Bing Crosby says to Danny Kaye early on is you ootzed me along or something.

[30:07] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah, you ootzed me along every step of the way.

[30:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, like he's talking Yiddish. That is so funny. Again, like some I've seen it so many times I've never, you know, even picked up on that. But uh by the way, that's not even like common Yiddish. Like, I only know that word because my sister uses it, but my sister in a very like anachronistic, like not our generation way, Lucy, like Lucy Rimalower, like is like very fluent in Yiddish. It's just like she like pulls out words that like I have never heard that my parents don't even use. Like, but like that's where I know from. And I can't believe like Bing, like Bing Crosby, like I I feel like if I would have guessed, I would have thought, wouldn't Bing Crosby be like an anti-Semite or something? But no, here he is, like talking Yiddish, right?

[30:55] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[30:55] Ben Rimalower: It's so true. Uh it's so showbusy and it's so um oh well, come on, we gotta go see the sister act. I got a letter from an RB pal asking for a favor. You know, it's just so like all that, all that, all that. But also that time, as you said, so many things were about show business.

[31:14] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[31:14] Ben Rimalower: And you know, I know that like America at that time was really like sort of seduced by the glamour of what Hollywood and Broadway were supposed to be, or you know, were or whatever. But like it's funny because I've kind of like grown up thinking that like artistically you need to like not do that. Like I, you know, as a teenager, like getting into Sondheim and everything, and like wanting to work myself in musical theater. Like I always thought, like, oh, the reason that Merrily we roll along didn't succeed was because people didn't find these characters likable when it was about them trying to make it in show business, you know.

[31:55] Daniel Nolen: Um and uh, you know, and in a broader scale, you know, maybe I thought that about Follies or like even Sunday in the park with George, this, you know, it's not show business, but the idea that it's about this artist and his work is like inaccessible to a general audience.

[32:10] Ben Rimalower: Um like I always sort of took that as like, you know, um one of like the lessons or something. And yeah, it's interesting to think about like the exceptions to that. I mean, we I'm trying to think like, are there um I mean it's I mean it's so hard to even come compare anything nowadays because we're in such like a reality TV kind of era. So it's like, you know, I think we are very interested in like behind the scenes of like actual working artists, you know.

[32:41] Daniel Nolen: Um yeah, I mean nowadays, you know, I immediately think of like La La Land, which is all about it's more about the film industry, but um it's kind of an insider-y take on on that.

[32:52] Ben Rimalower: And then before that was also like such a throwback, La La Land.

[32:57] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[32:59] Ben Rimalower: And definitely influenced by, you know, these these huge mega musicals of uh the 50s and bells are ringing. Our last corn stream, you know, he is uh a writer, yes, totally and she's trying to get him to write. And then well, I think uh American in Paris, he's also a songwriter. And so it's yeah, it was a really good thing back then. But are but I mean, am I just forgetting that there are more things about that nowadays?

[33:24] Daniel Nolen: And I'm just like not giving it away. Musicals or just movies?

[33:27] Ben Rimalower: Even just movies, you know, or like I guess even TV shows. Like, um I mean, I always hear, you know, Bert uh Birdman, that movie that won Best Picture. But that was like an art movie, and it was sort of, you know, I mean, it was and you know, it wasn't necessarily like a blockbuster, like mainstream kind of thing, other than the Oscars. I just remember people saying Hollywood loves movies about Hollywood. You know, Hollywood loves movies about itself or behind the scenes or what goes on.

[33:54] Daniel Nolen: Um, but I don't know, you know, like you're saying, I don't know if that really translates to an audience.

[34:02] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Uh a wide audience.

[34:02] Daniel Nolen: But maybe it can.

[34:03] Ben Rimalower: I mean, you know, I mean, honestly, maybe the Sondheim shows flopped because like people found Sondheim's work inaccessible, not the subject matter.

[34:10] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[34:10] Ben Rimalower: I mean, also think about the prom, you know, it was a big hit, and now the Netflix um it was not a big hit, it was a flop.

[34:18] Daniel Nolen: Was it?

[34:18] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it was absolutely a flop. Um now the movie is you know, this huge uh big budget film, and it's Ryan, because Ryan Murphy wanted to make it and he's fascinated with that. But I haven't heard whether the movie has been successful or not, you know.

[34:34] Daniel Nolen: Uh I know the reviews were mixed.

[34:36] Ben Rimalower: Um but it but I do think though that like, you know, Ryan Murphy's not alone in that. Obviously, he's tapped into something. I mean, look at Glee, you know.

[34:45] Daniel Nolen: Um and uh I mean it's the reality, you know. I I watched this documentary uh on the plane uh called Jawline. Have you heard of that?

[34:56] Daniel Nolen: Mm-mm.

[34:57] Ben Rimalower: It's produced by Hulu, it's on Hulu, and um it's fascinating. It's about this 16 year, I think he's 16-year-old, maybe even younger. This boy, this teenage boy who's trying to become a social media star uh in a from a very poor family uh in a teeny town in uh Tennessee, I think it is. Maybe it's I think it's Tennessee. Um and uh and it and it he's the main focus of the movie, although it also looks at um these other kids who sort of are what he's aspiring to be, you know, that have hundreds of thousands of followers on Instagram and these other apps, yeah.

[35:34] Daniel Nolen: And that um, and this fascinating character who was referred to as the Louis B. Mayor of social media.

[35:42] Ben Rimalower: Uh he's this 22-year-old gay guy in LA named Michael Weist, who is a manager of social media stars, and all his clients, all his clients are like 17-year-old like insta hotties. Um, and he he has this house that they all live in, and it's like a farm. And he'll be like, he'll be like, you haven't, but he's a kid too, you know. I mean, and it doesn't seem like he's using them for sex or anything. He's like, I think he's like making them stars and making money off them, you know. But he's like he's like, it's 10 a.m., go make a video. And the guy's like, I'm hungry. He's like, have a protein bar and get on cam.

[36:24] Daniel Nolen: You know, and um Oh my god, this is like an old Judy Garland movie, like Summerstock or Daniel. You have to watch it. It is so fascinating. It's like a modern version of like those old school uh film when they go to camp and put on shows.

[36:38] Ben Rimalower: Totally, or stage store, you know.

[36:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to watch this. I mean, I think it screams out.

[36:44] Ben Rimalower: I think it should be a musical.

[36:45] Ben Rimalower: I was gonna say, our friend TBJ should help write it, Jake Shears.

[36:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[36:53] Ben Rimalower: It's like you've got to watch the movie. I mean, I was crying, I was laughing. I loved it. But you know, that movie I think was very acclaimed at Sundance and all that. So I think that maybe to the more to the point, people are interested in show business behind the scenes stuff now; they're just not that interested in Broadway, you know.

[37:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[37:22] Ben Rimalower: Which is why, like, you know, Smash was not successful.

[37:27] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[37:27] Ben Rimalower: That's very true. I mean, and also it's so, you know, even Smash with these semi-big TV and film stars in it, it's so insider-y, you know, like even me who was into Broadway and into theater, you know, seeing clips of Smash now, I'm like, oh my god, I didn't realize she was in this, or I had no idea who this was back then. And you know, these cameos by these Broadway people.

[37:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but those were like Easter eggs.

[37:52] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I think Smash, right, right. I don't think you needed to get that to get Smash.

[37:57] Daniel Nolen: No, I'm just saying, like it's very, the Broadway community is not super recognizable or super known, and the ins and outs of Broadway aren't super known to the general public.

[38:11] Ben Rimalower: Sure. But I mean, that aspect, I think that was almost more like The Good Wife or something, where it's like you film a show in New York, Law and Order, you know, you're gonna have Anne Harada, you're gonna have Carolee Carmello. That doesn't, you know, the stars of the show were the stars of, you know, Will and Grace and, you know, The Grifters, and American Idol, you know.

[38:37] Daniel Nolen: I don't know, it's The Grifters, Angelica Huston's biggest credit.

[38:41] Ben Rimalower: I wasn't sure what to leave.

[38:43] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I was like, who?

[38:45] Ben Rimalower: Um, yeah, the girl from The Witches, I mean, and The Addams Family.

[38:45] Daniel Nolen: Yes, The Addams Family. There it is. Speaking of Carolee Carmello, speaking of Carolee Carmello, and when are we not? Have you, by the way, I never saw the musical of The Addams Family, did you?

[39:01] Ben Rimalower: I did not either.

[39:02] Daniel Nolen: I did not. I wish that I had. I wasn't even in New York, I don't think, whenever it was on, but I had never seen it. But I mean, I do know, I think when I was in Oklahoma, it too was coming through touring a lot and there were regional productions, so it's one of those shows that definitely has a life still.

[39:22] Ben Rimalower: It's weird, you know. Andrew Lippa wrote the score to that, and I loved the score that he wrote for The Wild Party, the off-Broadway Wild Party. But I haven't really kept up with him. Like I know he wrote The Addams Family and he wrote Shrek, and I never saw either one of them.

[39:42] Daniel Nolen: I watched Shrek on Netflix a few years ago, and it was okay.

[39:46] Ben Rimalower: Um, I've actually never even seen like the real Shrek.

[39:51] Daniel Nolen: Really?

[39:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[39:52] Daniel Nolen: I don't know what I read recently, but something I saw said that it was recently inducted into like some, you know, historically and aesthetically significant film list, like Shrek from 2000, whatever, which it is. It's like a great movie and it was a hit, but it's just funny. It's like this green ogre is like a historically significant film.

[40:14] Ben Rimalower: But I remember liking it. And I liked the show when I saw it on Netflix, but it was good. It just, you know, Shrek's not really my thing.

[40:23] Daniel Nolen: But yeah, you know, Sutton putting on a fat suit, being an ogre. We have to stand.

[40:28] Ben Rimalower: I thought that was Brian d'Arcy James.

[40:34] Daniel Nolen: That was such an interesting—go ahead, go on.

[40:40] Ben Rimalower: Are you making jokes that go over my head?

[40:43] Daniel Nolen: Um, that was in that weird run of shows that Sutton was doing right after, um, oh god, it was relentless. She wouldn't stop. And then worst of all, the show Young Frankenstein, the show that was a smack in the face of all that is good and holy.

[41:03] Ben Rimalower: Which was Anything Goes.

[41:05] Daniel Nolen: Oh, right.

[41:06] Ben Rimalower: That was the grand finale.

[41:09] Daniel Nolen: How very dare she.

[41:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess Music Man's coming up, but I guess I saw her in Violet, which I did not like.

[41:20] Daniel Nolen: But um, I didn't love Violet. I mean, I'm not the biggest fan of Jeanine Tesori, even though I like Fun Home. But I thought Sutton was fine in Violet. I mean, I didn't—I thought she was good. I didn't think it would have been better with somebody else.

[41:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I guess that's true. Well, um, do we have anything else to say about White Christmas?

[41:39] Daniel Nolen: Um, let me check my notes. Uh, check your notes. Uh, well, also, like, I mean, this is so random, but do you kind of think maybe that Vera-Ellen has a little bit of a Nicole Kidman quality, like facially speaking?

[41:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally.

[41:52] Daniel Nolen: Oh, it's funny you bring that up because, you know, she was a dancer, which rumors, you know, that maybe she had an eating disorder. But the reason she was in every scene, her outfits have a really high collar, it's because she had a really thin neck and her neck had aged prematurely. So she was really self-conscious about her neck. So that's why in all her costumes they're high collared.

[42:17] Ben Rimalower: Oh my god, I can't with you, Hollywood.

[42:20] Daniel Nolen: Because she had her neck look, I mean, as Nora Ephron says, I feel bad about my neck. So, you know, but she was so thin, just like teeny, teeny tiny. And then Rosemary, you know, was seen by many in the biz as too fat, even though she was, you know, just a curvy, beautiful woman. It's funny because when you think of Rosemary Clooney like as she came to be, you can only watch her in this movie and think she's so little.

[42:46] Ben Rimalower: I know.

[42:46] Daniel Nolen: In context, she really is the thinnest ever. I was reading about her as well. I have never—I love her so much, but I've never read any books. I mean, I think she's written several memoirs, autobiographies, but I've never read anything by her or about her. But from the research I've done, she had really a tough go of it. I think she was bipolar and she—I mean, she was a lifelong smoker and died from lung cancer, but I think she was addicted to pills early on.

[43:15] Ben Rimalower: I think she got that all together though.

[43:17] Daniel Nolen: I mean, the only thing I've read about her is a book called The Night and the Music. And it chronicles three Titanic cabaret stars in the 90s, and it's Rosemary Clooney, Julie Wilson, and Barbara Cook. And it goes beep back and forth chapter by chapter between the three of them over the course of a year while they're playing major engagements. Rosemary's playing at the Carlisle, and of course, I'm sorry, Rosemary's playing at Rainbow and Stars in this book. And oh, I guess she maybe she does one at Rainbow and Stars and one at the Carlisle. But you know, long runs. I mean, she plays each of those picks for like six weeks or something, you know, where she's doing seven shows a week, and she's doing all the major TV interviews. I mean, it's a level of sort of, you know, mainstream cabaret that like kind of doesn't exist. It really only ever existed in the modern times with Rosemary Clooney, I would think.

[44:20] Ben Rimalower: Um, but it would be a good musical. She's up for a Grammy and all that.

[44:23] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, it would be actually. You should read it because it certainly portrays the third act of her life, which is much more happy and peaceful than I guess what she went through with the addiction issues and financial problems and her tumultuous marriage to José Ferrer.

[44:44] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Well, and that's so, um, it seems so spot on in relation to my interest with Rosemary because I actually prefer her later stuff. You know, there's a bunch, I mean, there's so many albums, I don't even know if they're all on Spotify, but there are a few on Spotify from the 90s where she was kind of in that phase, and ah, they're so, so good. I mean, it's like Barbara Cook, you know, aged like a fine wine. She just sounded—and in the videos too, it's just so grounded. That said, when she started singing "You Didn't Do Right by Me," a song that I actually know very well from listening to Rosemary Clooney albums from the olden days, you know, or maybe it's just some compilation, but it comes up for me a lot. I did not know that was gonna be in this movie, and I lived for it. It made me want to watch Rosemary Clooney just stand in a fancy gown and sing old-fashioned big numbers with people dancing to her sides for an hour.

[45:43] Daniel Nolen: Totally, totally, and that dress she wears is so beautiful. I mean, she's also such a great example of, you know, I always talk about Marilyn, but Marilyn did it well. It's like those old stars who don't have dance training or minimal dance training, but they have such presence that the director, choreographer, whoever, works around them, and they know how to stage everything around them and create a space for them that highlights their voice and charisma, but also just their stage presence that doesn't really require them to do much choreography.

[46:19] Ben Rimalower: Very minimal.

[46:20] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. You know, and even in that number, Rosemary, you know, lifts her arms and, you know, a few angles here and there, but it's all those four guys who are doing all the heavy lifting dance-wise. She's just, you know, the fabulous center of it all.

[46:32] Ben Rimalower: Living the dream. I love that scene at the Carousel Club. I mean, first of all, just the Carousel Club. The fact that that ever existed in New York is just so fantastic.

[46:41] Daniel Nolen: Fantastic.

[46:41] Ben Rimalower: Um, back whenever there were just like dozens of nightclubs. It's a type of thing that really doesn't exist that much anymore. But um, with that said, I um, I've been watching a lot of TCM this week. They've been doing their, uh, every night's like a slew of kind of holiday, holiday adjacent movies. And um, last night I watched Shop Around the Corner, which is a movie with Jimmy Stewart. It's what You've Got Mail and She Loves Me. It's the source material for those.

[47:11] Daniel Nolen: Isn't it Jim—Jimmy Stewart and Judy Garland?

[47:16] Ben Rimalower: No, it's Jimmy Stewart and, um, oh, what's her name?

[47:20] Daniel Nolen: Margaret Sullivan.

[47:22] Ben Rimalower: But then also on TCM right now is In the Good Old Summertime, which is with Judy Garland, which is a remake of Shop Around the Corner.

[47:29] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I'm so confused.

[47:31] Ben Rimalower: So it's just like everything. There's so much, you know, shop—in the good old summertime, She Loves Me, You've Got Mail.

[47:33] Daniel Nolen: In the Good Old Summertime.

[47:39] Ben Rimalower: I loved it, yeah.

[47:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, so I'm—that's next on my list. But they all come from Shop Around the Corner, which is, uh, In the Good Old Summertime is where she works in the music shop.

[47:42] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes.

[47:42] Daniel Nolen: And in Shop Around the Corner, it's like She Loves Me. It's like a jewelry, you know, knickknack store or whatever.

[47:57] Ben Rimalower: It's a perfumery.

[47:59] Daniel Nolen: Perfumery, yes, yes.

[48:01] Ben Rimalower: Anyway. Well, anything else to say to the listeners before we sign off?

[48:05] Daniel Nolen: Just I want to wish them a Merry Christmas with lots of presents to make them happy.

[48:10] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Um, day soon we all will be together if the fates allow, until then we'll have to muddle through somehow.

[48:19] Daniel Nolen: Alright.

[48:20] Ben Rimalower: Bye, Ben.

[48:21] Daniel Nolen: Bye, Daniel.

[48:24] Ben Rimalower: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimalower's Broken Records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be.

[48:34] Daniel Nolen: This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy-winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song. Follow us both, Ben Rimalower and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials. That's Ben Rimalower. B E N R I M A L O W E R. And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A. Nolan with an A is an A.