This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

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[0:35] Ben Rimalower: Welcome to Ben Rimmelauer's Broken Records on Broadway World and Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:41] Ben Rimalower: I am your lovely co-host Ben Rimalower, and I'm here with this asshole, Daniel Nolen.

[0:49] Daniel Nolen: Hello, hello, all of our beautiful girls.

[0:57] Ben Rimalower: I am so excited. I told you I it yesterday was like foreplay because I was finishing up Racing to Finish That Ted Chapin book.

[1:06] Daniel Nolen: Uh, which it took me about three weeks to read the first half just because I wasn't like in a reading place in my life.

[1:14] Ben Rimalower: But once I started, I mean, once I got halfway through, I read the entire second half yesterday, basically in one sitting.

[1:21] Daniel Nolen: Once they get to that tryout, baby, it is like impossible to put down.

[1:25] Ben Rimalower: It is juicy as Lucy and Jesse. For those of you who don't know, Daniel's talking about Everything Was Possible, the book from 2003, I think, by Ted Chapin, who for decades up until recently was the president of the Rodgers and Hammerstein organization, but began his career when he was a junior at Connecticut College in 1971 as a production assistant on the original production of Follies and wrote this incredible book all about that experience.

[2:01] Daniel Nolen: It is so insider. I mean, he must have taken just copious notes because it is like so detailed.

[2:07] Ben Rimalower: Every dress rehearsal, what they ran, who was a bitch, what Sondheim liked, what he didn't like, what Hal Prince said, and what note session. I mean, it's so detailed. It's just a wonderful resource for anyone, um, except listen to our podcast first and then go read it because if you read it first, you might not need to listen to this.

[2:27] Daniel Nolen: Anyway, but um, so I did that yesterday and it was just like getting me all revved up. And then today I re-listened to a bunch of the songs, especially the ones I hadn't explored as deeply.

[2:40] Ben Rimalower: And then I was a little late getting on the mic because I had to walk to the corner store to get my Diet Pepsi.

[2:40] Daniel Nolen: Wonderful. Well, speaking of sessions, speaking of Ted Chapin and Diet Pepsi, um, today is gonna be a very special episode of the pod as it's our Roses and Daffodils series.

[2:58] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, which we began with Gypsy. Uh, but unlike Gypsy, which is a one-woman show, Follies is a several many women's show.

[3:08] Daniel Nolen: And uh it took several many women to play it. So, in order to get through the enormous vast score, in addition to the kind of polls that we did with Gypsy, where we polled our social media friends for their choices of each recording of the song to make this Roses and Daffodils Gypsy playlist for Follies, we did polls on the female solos, but uh on our weekly Tuesdays at noon Eastern Time live stream video chat show Next Year, Some Year, we had friends of the pod, loyal viewers and commenters, uh, come on and give us their opinion for some of the songs.

[3:53] Ben Rimalower: And then for the final third of the score, we have some very special sound bites from some Follies experts, including Ted Chapin, which we'll be cutting to to give you their take on which is the best recording or anything else they have to say about that particular song.

[4:09] Daniel Nolen: That was what we did with the male solos.

[4:11] Ben Rimalower: And we've got it all here, and we're gonna go through the score song by song.

[4:16] Daniel Nolen: We will talk about what Daniel chooses, what I choose, and what we got from the poll or the friend or the expert.

[4:24] Ben Rimalower: We will decide what's going on the playlist, and then we will move on.

[4:28] Daniel Nolen: Yes, totally. And uh, you know, I think uh, as you said before we started, we're trying to think of an organized way to get through all of this in a timely manner so you guys aren't stuck listening to like a six-hour episode.

[4:42] Ben Rimalower: Um at least some people think some of our episodes are too long.

[4:49] Daniel Nolen: Not I, sir.

[4:50] Ben Rimalower: Maybe they do like three hours on one of Liza Minnelli's concerts, but I think it was a short episode.

[4:58] Daniel Nolen: It certainly was. I mean, we really had to speed through that one.

[5:01] Ben Rimalower: Yes, we did. Um, but you know, as you mentioned, we really had to think of a way to expedite this entire process over these last few months.

[5:10] Daniel Nolen: And so the way we did the polling, like you said, was we just focused on the big lady solos, which are the most recognizable, arguably, songs of the show.

[5:21] Ben Rimalower: So let's start, why don't we by really talking about um the main performers, the big four, the final four.

[5:30] Daniel Nolen: Yes. So for we'll save the ladies for uh last and start with the men.

[5:37] Ben Rimalower: And um the men are Ben and Buddy.

[5:40] Daniel Nolen: So starting with Ben, Benjamin Stone, uh, he was originated on Broadway by John McMartin.

[5:47] Ben Rimalower: And uh he's of course a familiar face because he's been a character actor in every single movie and TV show.

[5:53] Daniel Nolen: But he also um was on Broadway in Sweet Charity, uh, which and actually in the movie opposite Shirley MacLaine, he played that part, Oscar as well.

[6:03] Ben Rimalower: And um it's funny. For me, he was famous as uh I believe the priest who Dorothy falls in love with in Golden Girls.

[6:10] Daniel Nolen: Yes, very that.

[6:12] Ben Rimalower: Um I I really uh not that we're necessarily choosing who we like best overall in the role, but there really is no competition for me with the Benz.

[6:24] Daniel Nolen: Um I think that he just infuses, even though I mean he sings well, but uh, but he's certainly not.

[6:31] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I I'm a huge George Hearn fan, and I really enjoyed George Hearn's recording of Ben Stone in Follies.

[6:38] Daniel Nolen: And um uh I you know, and I I somewhere in my notes somewhere I have like you know, George Hearn being like, oh, would you like vocal richness with that?

[6:48] Ben Rimalower: Um it's just like so true. I mean, he just brings it, you know, and of course, uh that's not what John McMartin has got to offer.

[6:57] Daniel Nolen: But he just sounds so authentic, and you just feel like every single word is convincing as this middle-aged man who has made it big uh in business, but has a great deal of regret and dissatisfaction.

[7:15] Ben Rimalower: And as far as the other men that have played the part, uh there was um, like I said, George Hearn in the '85 concert, and uh in uh the '87 London premiere, uh, it was Daniel Massey, who actually originated the role of George in She Loves Me on Broadway.

[7:15] Daniel Nolen: Um he's wonderful.

[7:41] Ben Rimalower: He's similarly to John McMartin, really uh, I mean, they're all great actors, but uh he's someone who that really comes through um more so uh, you know, than him as a singer.

[7:54] Daniel Nolen: And um it's worth noting that uh he does not get to sing uh uh Ben's uh big uh sort of character song, The Road You Didn't Take, one of the most beautiful songs in the show.

[8:07] Ben Rimalower: So crazy. Because that song was considered depressing, and that '87 Follies produced by Cameron Mackintosh uh was um an attempt to see how the show would play if they made it less depressing.

[8:20] Daniel Nolen: Um and in place of that song, there's the duet between Daniel Massey as Ben and Diana Rigg as Phyllis.

[8:29] Ben Rimalower: Which, you know, as far as songs go, it does not fucking belong in Follies.

[8:33] Daniel Nolen: It sounds like a third-rate song that was cut from Into the Woods.

[8:37] Ben Rimalower: It does such that '80s Sondheim. It's very It Takes Two, yeah, and no disrespect to Into the Woods because it wishes it was It Takes Two, but it's but it's you know, it's like it's what they cut when they wrote the better song, It Takes Two, and to go to its place.

[8:51] Daniel Nolen: And so, and so you know, I don't think anybody would consider themselves a huge fan of that as a piece of writing.

[8:58] Ben Rimalower: However, Daniel Massey and Diana Rigg are so uh incredible in their performances.

[9:05] Daniel Nolen: I mean, they just act the shit out of that song, and it really feels like uh you're listening to a conversation between the characters.

[9:13] Ben Rimalower: So I I do enjoy that song.

[9:15] Daniel Nolen: And um moving on from there, Ron Rains played the part uh on uh in the Broadway revival opposite Bernadette and uh, you know, opposite Jan Maxwell, really, well, both in 2011.

[9:29] Ben Rimalower: And I feel extremely um judgmental and unlikable in the things that I would say about Ron Rains.

[9:37] Daniel Nolen: Uh oh.

[9:38] Ben Rimalower: But to me, he just always feels like a karaoke guide vocal.

[9:38] Daniel Nolen: Ooh.

[9:46] Ben Rimalower: And maybe I'm just judging him because I knew who he was for many years before Follies, because he was often uh on recordings and in regional productions starring opposite Judy Kaye.

[9:58] Daniel Nolen: Uh oh, so you don't have to have that bad association.

[10:01] Ben Rimalower: You can never wash that stench away.

[10:03] Daniel Nolen: Um but um I just to me he feels like uh he he just feels very like basic.

[10:15] Ben Rimalower: Like he's just um like the like what do you call the Costco brand, Kirkland.

[10:20] Daniel Nolen: He's like the Kirkland generic, yeah, best choice.

[10:24] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, exactly.

[10:25] Daniel Nolen: And he is a good, he's he certainly can act, and he certainly has a wonderful voice.

[10:29] Ben Rimalower: He's a good voice.

[10:30] Daniel Nolen: And he, you know, he's not somebody, it's not like he's some like weird opera singer who like can't do anything with the songs.

[10:37] Ben Rimalower: He does, and he was fine in the show, but he just feels like when you're when you've got Bernadette and Jan Maxwell and Danny Burstein.

[10:45] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, he kind of falls to the back.

[10:46] Ben Rimalower: He falls to the back.

[10:47] Daniel Nolen: And and uh, and certainly when you have Daniel Massey and George Hearn and John McMartin, and then in the fabulous National Theatre revival from 2017, uh, that's been a big hit for them and was uh broadcast in cinemas and is available sometimes to stream.

[11:03] Ben Rimalower: And I think it's coming back to cinemas soon.

[11:05] Daniel Nolen: Uh so maybe a Broken Records field trip.

[11:08] Ben Rimalower: Yes, we must, we must.

[11:11] Daniel Nolen: Wait, now I'm having a brain fart who plays Ben there.

[11:13] Ben Rimalower: He's somebody great.

[11:13] Daniel Nolen: Philip Quast.

[11:15] Ben Rimalower: Philip Quast, yes, yes, who was uh a longtime Javert.

[11:20] Daniel Nolen: I I can't listen to this without just being like Javert, Javert, Javert.

[11:24] Ben Rimalower: He has that authority of a Javert and authoritative and a sweet.

[11:28] Daniel Nolen: And a very rich voice, yeah.

[11:29] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, he has that snarl.

[11:29] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[11:31] Ben Rimalower: I love him. I think he's fabulous.

[11:33] Daniel Nolen: Uh he was also a Sweeney Todd.

[11:35] Ben Rimalower: I think he was the judge when I might be getting it backwards.

[11:39] Daniel Nolen: It because Alan Armstrong, who was actually the original Thénardier, I think.

[11:39] Ben Rimalower: Thénardier.

[11:39] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[11:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, I I could be getting this all wrong.

[11:51] Daniel Nolen: But I think that he starred as Sweeney opposite Julia McKenzie at the National.

[11:57] Ben Rimalower: But then when it transferred, this is like 1993.

[12:01] Daniel Nolen: I think that Philip, who had been the judge, replaced him as Sweeney, but I could be getting that flipped or so or just wrong altogether.

[12:08] Ben Rimalower: But um anyway, uh those are my feelings about the Benz.

[12:13] Daniel Nolen: Uh I I agree with what you're saying um totally.

[12:17] Ben Rimalower: I think uh, you know, John McMartin, I think one of our experts kind of weighs in on this later, but he has a real everyman quality about him.

[12:26] Daniel Nolen: And and and obviously, George Hearn, I mean, arguably the greatest voice out of all these Benz.

[12:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[12:34] Daniel Nolen: And I think that comes in handy at some points, but at other points I think it distracts a little bit from, you know, the message or whatever.

[12:43] Ben Rimalower: And so I think John McMartin is really good at kind of communicating those human ideas that.

[12:51] Daniel Nolen: And I really, really baffled at why The Road You Didn't Take was cut because it's such an integral piece of the score.

[12:51] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[12:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[12:51] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[13:02] Daniel Nolen: But we'll get to that.

[13:04] Ben Rimalower: With that said, same things I just said about John McMartin, I also feel for Gene Nelson as Buddy.

[13:04] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[13:11] Ben Rimalower: And um I I just have fallen in love with Gene Nelson through this whole process.

[13:18] Daniel Nolen: And obviously, I knew him first in the movie of Oklahoma.

[13:21] Ben Rimalower: Yes, he was Will Parker.

[13:22] Daniel Nolen: Yes, the greatest role, my dream role, and I still have a little bit of time to play it, maybe.

[13:27] Ben Rimalower: I can't believe that's your dream role.

[13:29] Daniel Nolen: I just love that role so much, so much.

[13:33] Ben Rimalower: But um anyway, he also has that everyman quality, and he's just so goddamn likable, and he's just so sweet, and there's a like a real vulnerability to him that I really respond to.

[13:46] Daniel Nolen: And he has such a unique voice.

[13:49] Ben Rimalower: I mean, we'll get into it uh with the individual songs, but there are things he does with his voice that I find just really, really uh delightful.

[13:58] Ben Rimalower: It's funny, you know, both he and John McMartin, while their voices cannot compare with like a George Hearn or even a Danny Burstein, if you're talking just about vocals, they're so goddamn comfortable in musical comedy. Even compared to Dorothy Collins and Alexis Smith when they're doing the quartet number, there's just something about John McMartin. And I mean, obviously Dorothy Collins, and we'll talk a lot about her, just as absolutely, you know, talk about effortless singing. But she seems more comfortable singing a song than she necessarily does in like a musical theater-y dance number. Obviously, Alexis Smith was really, you know, even though she wound up doing a lot of musicals, she was cutting her teeth in the sort of live musical theater performance with this. But John McMartin and Gene Nelson, in a way more than any of the other people being that we'll discuss, they just know how to be musical theater characters in a way that feels really natural.

[15:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, very natural, very naturalistic, very effortless. Just a delight to listen to. It's like you don't really feel like some of these, you know, bins and buddies, it's like for example, our next buddy, Mandy Patinkin. I mean, I'm exhausted before the song even starts.

[15:34] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, it's just like kind of he starts at a 10, and sometimes there's nowhere to go. Whereas I think, you know, a Gene or a John kind of know how to guide you along, and it's a little more of like a human journey as opposed to being forced down one's throat.

[15:54] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. I mean, I'm a huge Mandy Patinkin fan.

[15:57] Ben Rimalower: Sure, sure.

[15:58] Daniel Nolen: In many, many things. You know, certainly Evita and Sunday in the Park with George, and to some extent in The Secret Garden, and very much in, you know, probably all of his acting roles. But for me, him, rather as Buddy is a little bit of a miss. I mean, we'll get to the song, but in Waiting for the Girls Upstairs, I mean, he's just so beyond a 10. I mean, it's like he starts at like a 12. I mean, when he's like a girl's on the run and scenery flying, girls talking, I mean, he's like he's doing a Liza Minnelli impression.

[16:42] Ben Rimalower: Right.

[16:42] Daniel Nolen: I mean, he's almost kind of manic through the whole thing, and he kind of ignores the rhythms and he speaks a lot of it, which by the way, does not vibe at all, does not jibe at all with George Hearn, who's like exactly girls on the run with whoever thought they went together is absolutely, absolutely, absolutely well. And that's again why I've fallen in love with Gene Nelson so much, is because he's like, I mean, Buddy's like a salesman, he's kind of a nobody, and you really want that to come across as like just a simple guy. And Mandy is like not that at all.

[17:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and wait, what's the dude's name in London in '87?

[17:21] Ben Rimalower: David Healy.

[17:22] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yes. He's good. He's very interesting. You could tell that he has listened to the original production and it feels he has a lot to bring to the table, but it's just less natural.

[17:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. And then Dan is the next one, Danny Burstein.

[17:48] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. Danny Burstein, he's probably after Gene, he's probably my second favorite Buddy. The thing that I love about Danny is that you can tell he's very well trained, but yet he doesn't totally blow his load right off the bat. He really knows how to build. He really knows how to create an arc with a song and make it really, really enjoyable to listen to. I mean, Danny also, in addition to just being so fabulously talented, he's very next generation. I mean, you know, Danny's somebody who did Merrily We Roll Along when he was in college, you know. Like he grew up on Sondheim.

[18:29] Ben Rimalower: So he has the added benefit of being like, this is what like, you know, he's doing Follies, but he has seen Sunday in the Park with George.

[18:40] Daniel Nolen: It's like the girls who are on Drag Race now and done all the research of growing up watching it.

[18:45] Ben Rimalower: Yes, or Real Housewives, yeah.

[18:48] Daniel Nolen: Second gen or third gen. And then what's the dude in the Peter theater?

[18:55] Ben Rimalower: Forbes.

[18:56] Daniel Nolen: Peter Forbes, who I don't really know much about. I didn't love him so much. I felt like he was like maybe a little lacking on the vocals. He didn't stand out to me.

[19:06] Ben Rimalower: No, and then moving on to the girls.

[19:09] Daniel Nolen: Okay, here we go. Well, so Alexis Smith created the role of Phyllis, and she is like a sort of what is it, like a B player in like old movies.

[19:20] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, she always says like she was like the fourth one in line for these roles. It would be, you know, Betty Davis, and then, you know, someone else, and then someone else, and then she would get like the fourth down offer. And this was a big break for her. She won the Tony, and she went on to do actually a lot of musical theater after this, both some roles on Broadway and a bunch of stuff. She really worked steadily in Summerstock, and this was something that was A-list, you know. I mean, more so even than at the time when, although she won the Tony, the show didn't make money and wasn't considered a hit. And it was before Sondheim had really completely gotten the imprimatur of like the master, you know. But in the years that followed, she was hailed as, you know, for example, on the podcast, and we covered Showstoppers, or what is it?

[20:14] Daniel Nolen: No, that singing.

[20:16] Ben Rimalower: What was it called?

[20:17] Daniel Nolen: Both.

[20:17] Ben Rimalower: I think it was both interchangeably. You know, one it was in the same broadcast as like Ethel Merman and Chita Rivera, there was Alexis Smith singing, "Could I Leave You?"

[20:19] Daniel Nolen: You know.

[20:27] Ben Rimalower: Oh, I forgot that. And she deserved that and was hailed for that for the rest of her life. And so it's, you know, it's a really special performance, and there were songs where I chose other people, but it's very hard. It's a little bit of how I felt about Christine Ebersole in War Paint when I saw the show several times. The first time was with you.

[20:53] Daniel Nolen: Um and we met Patty after, and that's when she—no, that wasn't the douchebag, never mind. That was the other guesting room.

[21:02] Ben Rimalower: Um we were the douchebag this time.

[21:05] Daniel Nolen: But one of the times I saw the show subsequently, Christine was out, and I saw fabulous Patty Cohenauer, who was her standby. I mean, she's I think a Tony nominee herself. She was in Mystery of Edwin Drood and a bunch of stuff.

[21:20] Ben Rimalower: Light in the Piazza.

[21:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, Sound of Music. And she's a fantastic actress with a glorious voice, but she didn't have the—she made me appreciate how special Christine was. And part of what's so special about Christine is the way that she was effortlessly glamorous, and she was so interesting and specific and authentic. That she wasn't somebody playing glamour, she just is glamorous in her own way, you know.

[21:57] Ben Rimalower: And Alexis Smith, I guess is probably more beautiful than Christine, but similarly, I think just has this effortless glamour and authority that, you know, this is a part where somebody can seem like a little girl in their mama's high heels, you know.

[22:14] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, and she never comes across that way, and it enables her to be really moving because she isn't trying to be glamorous, she's trying to, you know, be happy.

[22:26] Ben Rimalower: Right. Well, and she also, you know, you sent me that video of her Lucy and Jesse, and I'd also watched that YouTube video of the original Broadway cast. And she makes the transition really well between kind of the austere, like long-sleeve dressed Phyllis through most of the show to the sexy leggy Lucy and Jesse Phyllis at the end of the show.

[22:51] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. And you know, she was, I mean, she was the biggest name in the show, and I think she got the last bow. She was also the one that they chose to be on all the magazine covers, all the interviews. I mean, she was kind of like the spokesperson a lot of the time for the show. Even though according to the book, she was a little bit of a cold girl. I think she kept to herself a lot of the time and wasn't socializing with the rest of the company. Maybe she was nervous about the singing.

[23:22] Ben Rimalower: You know who was socializing was Dorothy Collins.

[23:27] Daniel Nolen: She seems like a social butterfly.

[23:29] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Moving on with the Phyllises, the '85 concert featured Lee Remick, who was a very close friend of Sondheim's. At one point, I think he proposed to her. And she created the role of Faye Apple in Anyone Can Whistle. It's funny because people talk about how she really wasn't a singer, and that was so difficult for her. And I love her singing in Anyone Can Whistle. I mean, especially on the song "Anyone Can Whistle" and on "There Won't Be Trumpets" and "Come Play With Me." I like her more than the recording with Bernadette or the bootlegs with Audra or when I saw Sutton do the role. I really, really love Lee Remick in that. But for me, her Phyllis feels like I don't know if I'm just judging her harshly because she's so pretty, but somehow I feel like she's not smart enough or something.

[24:38] Daniel Nolen: Does that make sense?

[24:39] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I mean, if I'm honest, I've never loved Lee Remick. I don't really get it. I've liked her in the movies. I've seen her in like Days of Wine and Roses or The Omen. But even in Days of Wine and Roses, where she's playing like an alcoholic, like an addict, she doesn't really convince me all the time in that either. She lacks an edge, I think. And you know, Phyllis, I think needs a bit of an edge. Like she needs to be cunning and always have some sort of plan going on in her mind.

[25:09] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[25:10] Ben Rimalower: And Lee seems a little—she does have the glamour and the beauty, but I think she lacks that edge that a lot of these other ladies, that certainly Diana Rigg brings to the role.

[25:22] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Diana Rigg is so good at playing that type.

[25:26] Ben Rimalower: Yes, absolutely. I mean, it's so funny with Diana Rigg because I'm such a huge fan of hers, in general. And even in Sondheim, I mean, she is Countess Charlotte in the mostly unwatchable film of Little Night Music, and she's divine in that, you know. And she is divine here. She's just, you know, I didn't wind up voting for her because there were other choices, but she's a fabulous—Betty Buckley would say this is why comparing artists to each other is not useful. But in Diana Rigg is another change in that London production is that she doesn't sing the story of Lucy and Jesse. She has the song "Ah But Underneath," which I also love, and a lot of people will say that it's actually a better song.

[26:30] Daniel Nolen: Well, I don't know if I agree with that.

[26:31] Ben Rimalower: That's a good song.

[26:32] Daniel Nolen: But it is a great song, yeah. But she's certainly incredible, and she certainly has that edge and that authority. And then in the Broadway revival in 2011, it was Jan Maxwell who was gone too soon, just died a couple years after that, sadly of cancer. But she's a phenomenal actress who I saw in many plays. I did not see her when she was in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. So I sort of didn't think about her as a musical theater person because that wasn't where she spent most of her career. But she blew me away in Follies, and I think she really comes across so well on the album.

[27:21] Daniel Nolen: Oh, absolutely. I mean, arguably, out of all these ladies, she sings it the best. And I mean, vocal—I mean, she has the vocal prowess that these other ladies might not have. And also I think she's the closest thing—I mean, we'll get to this as well, but I mean, she's kind of the closest thing to a Donna Murphy type performance that we get out of all these ladies.

[27:46] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Well, like Donna Murphy, she's in that sort of Danny Burstein like next gen of like, you know, I grew up on Sondheim.

[27:56] Daniel Nolen: Like, you know, I know that um when Ben Rimalower was coming out of the closet in junior high, he really hated how some of the people on Songtime cast albums had bad voices. And I wanna be able to uh have a great voice and be a great actor. She was probably thinking about that.

[28:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, totally, totally. Um, and then uh Janie D, uh, in the National Theater production. Um, I would sort of give her that too. I mean, I think she's sort of quirky and fun and fabulous, and she doesn't sing it as well as Jan, but she sings it, I don't know, as well as Alexis and is, you know, maybe more in it. She's a little more well-rounded than Diana Rigg, but obviously doesn't have that star presence and authority that Diana Rigg has.

[28:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. But I think she does have enough edge to be a really great Phyllis.

[28:53] Ben Rimalower: Totally. I remember really loving her when I saw the show. And there's a few times where uh she was never my first choice, but there was a few times on a few of these songs where she was close because I really enjoyed her performance.

[29:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she's also it's impressive what a good foil she is to Amelda Stanton.

[29:15] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah, totally. Because Amelda is such a huge uh personality um that um it where would be the room to be complimentary to her, other than to just be sort of like a shrinking violet, you know, wallflower. And she manages to be interesting and weird and yet still, you know, not overlap with Amelda.

[29:39] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, exactly. Clamelda's so weird. Speaking of Amelda, um, this is what I just if Amelda, if you're listening, I just want to say this to you. Um, you know, we were I was not a fan. I believe Daniel was not a fan of your work in Gypsy.

[29:54] Daniel Nolen: No, I I I loved her.

[29:56] Ben Rimalower: Daniel loved you. I I famously did not. Um, but I don't want you to think that because I'm not choosing you on these songs in Follies that I don't like what you're doing. I actually really like you in Follies, Amelda. And the thing is just look, you know what? Like, I Bernadette Peters and Julia McKenzie are two of my favorite musical theater performers ever. And I don't think I chose either one of them once for my choices on any of these songs.

[30:29] Daniel Nolen: Right, right.

[30:30] Ben Rimalower: And so you, Amelda, shouldn't feel bad that I don't choose you. This should be just like a new segment we do on every podcast. Dear Amelda.

[30:39] Daniel Nolen: Um I, you know, Amelda, I feel like is so polarizing, and I've always loved her. I mean, I loved her in Gypsy, and I loved I loved her in Follies, but I also loved her in Virginia Wolf. Uh, I'm sure I'll love her. I want to see that. I'm sure I'll love her in Hello Dolly.

[30:55] Ben Rimalower: I'm not sure that you will because A, I don't think it's happening.

[30:58] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well.

[30:59] Ben Rimalower: I mean, the thing with Amelda is she's just so like you said, she's so weird and she has so much uh uh there's just so much power there. She's just so uh what's the word? Interstream. She brings to mind what Elaine Stritch said about Bernadette Peters when they were doing a little night music, which is um there's no question that she is a great talent. I just don't agree with some of her choices.

[31:27] Daniel Nolen: Oh yeah.

[31:28] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean that that is the thing. Well, and with Amelda, sometimes it's like all the choices. It's just like uh, or the biggest choice. Um which I think sometimes kind of I mean, certainly for Virginia Wolf, I thought worked really well because of the intensity of the show, but also I think a lot of times with Sally, she really does well with kind of the awkwardness and the kind of fish out of water uh uh revisitation of the past. I mean, I think she kind of communicates that well.

[31:59] Daniel Nolen: Well, she communicates everything well. I mean, the thing is, like, uh I know people have mixed feelings, some of some people have mixed feelings about the National Theater Production of Follies, although, you know, it can't be understated that it was a huge hit and has continued to have a life and will continue to. Um, I love that production so much. And Amelda, while she's the most extreme case, is representative of what that production is like because that is very much a follies that is like deconstructed and everything is really brought to the light.

[32:30] Ben Rimalower: And it's like, you know, um there's a a lot of follies, I think that is because it was done in 1971. Um is maybe just sort of suggested. It you know, things were more subtle in those days, I think, in a way, um, in terms of the kind of work that, you know, with the shifting time periods and the ghosts, it's like there's a lot of sort of um hazy gray area that's like open to interpretation. And I think the National Theater really um just really spells it all out for you.

[33:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, you know.

[33:10] Ben Rimalower: And it's it's and a lot of people really. Literally, literally spells it out in Loveland.

[33:15] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, literally.

[33:16] Ben Rimalower: And um, and I I just kind of love that. Like, I, you know, I um it in a way it reminds me of, you know, people like not liking the John Doyle productions of Sweeney Todd and Company or not liking the um the the revival of the Vita or like you know, I'm like I the original already happened. So I actually, you know, it's weird. I mean, I can be so harshly judgmental against things that don't line up with what I want them to be. But I also feel like in some ways I have a lot of room for there to be different versions of shows.

[33:55] Daniel Nolen: You know, yeah. Well, and this Follies version, I think it's a really the the recent London one, I think is a really great one to watch as an introduction to Follies.

[34:07] Ben Rimalower: Yes, absolutely. Because it's there's no expense spared, they go full force into the staging and the orchestra and the cast. I mean, it's just like money, money, money, money. And like you're saying, it really spells it out and you really get what it's about. Um, yeah. Like, I mean, that I knew nothing about Follies, and then I went to the cinema and and watched it, and I was like, okay, now I'm I'm really into Follies and Totally. And I'd seen several productions, and when I saw that video in the cinema, I was like, oh, I think I get the show now, you know.

[34:38] Daniel Nolen: And I I have the tote bag I carry around. I have I have it framed on my I have the poster framed on my wall. So I love love love that production is my entry. However, I think only one of my choices is from that show.

[34:53] Ben Rimalower: Gotcha. Well, moving backwards uh then through the Sally's, um speaking of productions of Follies that I did see, um uh the 2011 revival featured uh Broadway sweetheart, Bernadette Peters.

[35:06] Daniel Nolen: Bernadette Peters as Sally, which some say was weird casting. What do you think?

[35:10] Ben Rimalower: Well, f when she was announced for it, I was over the moon thrilled. She was not my choice for Annie Get Your Gun. She was not my choice for Gypsy. She was not my choice for um a little night music. Um and uh it's funny, like I think of those three roles, she was wrongest for Gypsy, although I think her performance in Gypsy works the best of those three roles. Um I know a lot of people loved her in A Little Night Music, but for me, she was actually not as good as Catherine Zeta Jones.

[35:46] Daniel Nolen: Ooh.

[35:47] Ben Rimalower: Who I who who I really liked, it must be said. Um and I liked Bernadette, but she was not at all ideal for me for that. And uh I thought she was really fun to see in Annie Get Your Gun. It was really a star turn, but but it didn't really seem to be about the character at all. Um and uh anyway, but I was very excited she was cast in Follies because my idea of the show was um that Sally was maybe like kind of a maybe like boring soprano part. That's what I thought at the time. Um and uh I knew that Bernadette could be lots of things, but she would never be boring, you know.

[36:26] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[36:27] Ben Rimalower: And uh and she wasn't boring, but it it at the show in the theater, it started off working for me, and then ultimately it really did not. And I know that a lot of people say that she was wrong for it, especially after having seen her do it in what was a somewhat unsuccessful performance, you know. Um I liked that production. I didn't love it, and the National Theater production made me really not like it. Um but uh but I do feel like Bernadette might have had maybe she's too old now. That's a separate conversation. But but she might have had a better Sally in her with a different director. Um, you know, I think there were sparks and moments of it. And to for me, Bernadette is such a weird character, but it just in and of herself.

But I could buy that in some universe as a good Sally. I don't think she would ever necessarily be my number one favorite, but I think she might have been able to win me over in more of the score than she did and and all that. Um what about you?

[37:39] Daniel Nolen: Uh, do I you mean do I like Bernadette in this role?

[37:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[37:43] Daniel Nolen: Yeah. I mean, I did you see Glenn Close and Sunset Bull and Don't Dance that no one wants to know. I mean, as we'll talk about in a bit, there are times where I think she's so wonderful, and like just her her line readings and some of her choices are just like my very, very favorite. And I think she's so smart in the way she kind of uh approaches certain uh characters.

[38:08] Ben Rimalower: Persaggios in her voice.

[38:09] Daniel Nolen: Oh, sorry, go on.

[38:10] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, Psagio's. I mean, backphrasing for days. But uh with that said, I it seems like a bit of a challenge for her on some of these grander songs.

[38:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[38:23] Ben Rimalower: Um and I and and that's kind of uh I don't know. Uh that's for me, I kind of want a Sally who kind of has the chops to sing to hit those numbers really hard and well because that's kind of the prettiest. Uh besides some of like the younger cast moments, it's kind of like the prettiest moments you get in the in the show or are some of these um quote soprano parts.

[38:53] Daniel Nolen: So yeah, and it's just it's not uh it's not a show. Uh Sally, the story of Sally is not about a woman who used to be a great performer and doesn't have it anymore, you know.

[39:04] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, right, right. Um someone who absolutely still has it uh is in the London premiere of Julia McKenzie.

[39:13] Daniel Nolen: Oh well, pardon me, still had it in 1987. I know that she's retired from musicals, uh sadly now. Um and uh I really I really love Julia McKenzie on this album. Uh I uh I really fell in love with Julia McKenzie before I ever heard her in this uh on the side by side by Sondheim cast recording, which she did in London and then wound up doing on Broadway and was nominated for a Tony for.

[39:39] Ben Rimalower: Um, but uh under the name Julie N. McKenzie, because I guess there was another Julia McKenzie in Equity.

[39:46] Daniel Nolen: Um wait, like Julie Space In period or like Julian No, no, N period.

[39:52] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Like maybe her middle name is Nancy or like you know, Nigella or something.

[39:57] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[39:57] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh so and on that album, every anyone that doesn't know the original cast recording of Side by Side by Sondheim must listen because Julia and Millicent Martin and David Kernan are so fabulous. David Kernan played um uh uh David Kernan, I think was a replacement Ben in Opposite Julia Mackenzie, and Millicent Martin was a replacement Phyllis opposite Julia McKenzie. Those were, you know, years after the follow uh side by side by Sondheim, but also David Kernan had been the original Carl Magnus in Night Music in London. And Millicent Martin, among her many credits, um was a replacement for Tammy Grimes on Broadway and 42nd Street. And they're just fabulous actors and singers. David Kernan sings Could I Leave You as like a gay husband on Side by Side.

And that inspired me so much. I sang that in a review in college. And that's what really made me fall in love with that song. And Julia McKenzie singing Losing My Mind, Piano Only on Side by Side by Sonnheim, is to this day possibly my favorite recording of that song. And it's uh, you know, she she just has a thrilling voice because she's a legitimate soprano and she is a belter. And she has, you know, if she's not Angela Lansbury, she's almost that. I mean, she's just a great actress with huge comedy chops and just great presence, and you know really unique voice, too. I mean, she she's unmistakable when you hear her.

[41:34] Daniel Nolen: And and and some of her choices are really, really, really great. Um yes, Miss Barbara Cook played Sally in the 85 uh concert version.

[41:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Uh and um, you know, in a lot of ways, can be considered uh the main attraction there. Um, you know, and it's a gloriously sung performance. I mean, Barbara Cook would sing "Losing My Mind" and "In Buddy's Eyes" for the rest of her career.

[42:06] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah.

[42:06] Ben Rimalower: They became signature songs. Yes, yeah, exactly. Thank you, Carol. And um, she, and there's many other recordings of her singing them, and she's talked had talked about how her interpretations of the songs evolved and grew as she matured and got to know them better over the years. But you know, there's something undeniably exciting about her premiere performances of them on this. And it's um good having Barbara uh uh in in this lineup of Sally's. It's good having Barbara kind of uh for scale as far as sopranos go because she is a soprano soprano, and she is sopranos the fuck out of it.

[42:48] Daniel Nolen: Oh, really?

[42:51] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right. I I guess that makes sense. Um so I'm really really glad we have her as a Sally on records.

[42:59] Daniel Nolen: Yes, absolutely.

[43:01] Ben Rimalower: And um uh, and you know, as we've talked about, she's you know, my one of my all-time fave, fave, fave, fai faves on my team ranking. I mean, for a while she Patty was bumped for Barbara Cook.

[43:12] Daniel Nolen: I think.

[43:12] Ben Rimalower: I think she still is, yeah. I think she still is. Um so uh I mean, second to Judy Garland, but I had a Patty.

[43:19] Daniel Nolen: Of course, of course.

[43:20] Ben Rimalower: Um so uh, you know, unsurprisingly, she's does rank for me on some of these um songs. Uh, but my whole journey of this experience, and and honestly, what I set out to do when we started it together was I had a suspicion that there was something about Dorothy Collins I wasn't getting, and I wanted to make sure that I got it.

[43:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah and I and I what really changed it for me was the um footage uh that exists from a uh rehearsal in LA. It's like that's caught, it's like the dress rehearsal. Because after Folly's closed on Broadway, they did the original cast, did it at I think the St. Louis Muni and in LA, I think at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion.

[44:03] Ben Rimalower: And there's footage that's much better quality audio and picture of, I would say maybe it's like 30 or 40 minutes from that dress rehearsal. So it's full of costume and orchestration and everything. And uh, and it's not just it's some snippets of songs and some snippets of scenes. And seeing Dorothy there, I finally was able to click into what she's throwing down. I mean, I always appreciated how effortless her voice is.

[44:35] Daniel Nolen: Um, you'll never find a singer who's less of a dick about it than Dorothy Collins.

[44:39] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Well, and and that seems to be the case as far as how she was to work with as well. I mean, from from all by all accounts uh in Ted Chapin's book, she was just like super sweet and just a team player. And um, I don't know if it was I think it was Yvonne DeCarlo who was having some sort of crisis uh near the opening of the show, and and Dorothy was really like her go-to gal to like be there for her.

[45:12] Daniel Nolen: So Dorothy just seems like just a class act all around and just a really really good person.

[45:17] Ben Rimalower: Uh well, she she must have appreciated the gig. I mean, she really was a singer, she was known as a singer. She did uh what is it, the um uh your hit parade. Um, is that the right? No, it's the other, it's I forget what TV show she was on now. Um but she was on a TV show that was like your hit parade or sing along with Mitch or whatever, like throughout the 50s, you know, where she would sing all the hits of that day.

[45:42] Daniel Nolen: Lucky strikes your hit parade.

[45:44] Ben Rimalower: Oh, she was on your hip raid. So and they they would be the top songs of that week or whatever, sung by the cast of the show, not sung by the people who had introduced them. Because of course, in those days, a lot of big stars would sing the same songs. It would be like if Katy Perry had a hit with "Firework" and then Gaga recorded it and then Beyonce recorded it, you know.

[46:07] Daniel Nolen: Um and uh of course the stars didn't write or even collaborate on the writing of the songs, so they were more, you know, and they were oftentimes from Broadway shows anyway. But uh they would all sing the same songs, and the idea is that people like to sing and play piano at home too. So people would uh learn a song and then perform it at home because songs were performable.

[46:30] Ben Rimalower: It wasn't like all about like intense, you know, uh tech techno effects or whatever, you know, that go into music nowadays. But you know, you could sing "Crazy in Love" at home, but that wouldn't sound like the album, you know.

[46:43] Daniel Nolen: I do love that "Crazy in Love" is my contemporary song reference from 2003.

[46:48] Ben Rimalower: Um but uh anyway, so Dorothy Collins did that, and she was known from that, and there's even some recordings of that, you know, and she's got this sort of Rosemary Clooney-esque kind of Doris Day like quality, you know. Um and then she did this role, and I think surprised people that she really was able to be um a heavyweight actor opposite um, you know, in a production directed by Hal Prince and Michael Bennett of a Sondheim show and opposite people that I mean, I guess in a way they were all kind of proving themselves as heavyweights.

[47:22] Daniel Nolen: Really, only um John McMartin had more uh claim to that.

[47:27] Ben Rimalower: Um but but I think she was established as that. I mean, maybe not to go do Shakespeare necessarily, but she certainly was a theater actress after that and did a ton, just every musical you can name. Dorothy Collins did it in Summerstock and on tour and all that, you know, whether it's "MAME" or "Funny Girl" or "Bells Are Ringing," stuff.

[47:46] Daniel Nolen: "Funny Girl."

[47:47] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, they all well, just like Barbara Cook did it too. I mean, she did every single part in all those summer stocks for years and years and years. Um I think that's and I should, and that's kind of the work she I think had been doing, maybe with less um uh fanfare prior to Follies.

[48:06] Daniel Nolen: Um but I think she got maybe upgraded by this.

[48:09] Ben Rimalower: But um, so maybe that's why she also had such a good attitude because she appreciated um, she probably had more context for what the experience was. Um, but I don't know, that's really supposition. I'm sure Kevin Daly's like, what the fuck are you talking about? If he's even listening.

[48:24] Daniel Nolen: Um, I mean, that is uh another thing I I remember from the book is is for the most part, um I I think excluding maybe uh uh Fifi Dorsey, uh everyone seemed very gracious and very uh happy and grateful for these big gigs.

[48:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, right.

[48:44] Daniel Nolen: And um, so all right, well, so we've made it through the cost.

[48:47] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yes. Um, shall we dive into the score?

[48:51] Daniel Nolen: Do you need a uh refill of anything?

[48:53] Ben Rimalower: Uh I'm good. I I might need a refill in like a few songs, but I'm good for now.

[48:58] Daniel Nolen: All right. Um first up.

[49:00] Ben Rimalower: First up, be oh, I didn't even realize that you put your votes in.

[49:04] Daniel Nolen: Oh my god.

[49:05] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um so okay, so we have it all. So starting with "Beautiful Girls," which we did, a uh friend of the pod, who's also an expert, speaking of Kevin Daly, came on the live stream and talked to us. And his choice had been um uh uh Arthur Rubin on the 1985 concert, and his feeling was that um uh because this is the song that's not even on the original recording, right?

[49:36] Daniel Nolen: Or no.

[49:37] Ben Rimalower: Um I'm getting turned around. I know it is, it is on the original recording, I believe. Let me uh I can look. I've got my full full charts here.

[49:47] Daniel Nolen: Um I have so many Follies playlists.

[49:49] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, it's the prologue slash "Beautiful Girls." Um uh now I can't remember what his problem with the original recording was, but his choice is Arthur Rubin, who sings it really gloriously, but um doesn't over sing it. Kevin was complaining about um how later on the part would be cast by these sort of like, you know, like park and bark like opera singer type people that didn't have the same sort of character and um uh expressiveness and authenticity to that style of performance that it would have been in a Siegfeld Follies type number.

[50:28] Daniel Nolen: And of course, this song is such a great pastiche of that, you know. Even me without much context for that world, I could tell that this reminds me of songs I've heard in like old you know things.

[50:41] Ben Rimalower: And um it seems that both of us chose that for ourselves as well. I mean, more than any other, I mean, this is uh certainly not my favorite song in Follies, but more probably more than any other song in the whole recording through throughout this journey uh of this playlist that we're making, this is the song that stuck with me the most just because it's it's just such a catchy uh it's such a catchy song, not only melodically but lyrically.

[51:08] Daniel Nolen: I mean, Sondheim just at his best with these rhymes.

[51:12] Ben Rimalower: But this 85 recording I've listened to so many times on my walks or when I'm getting ready. And as Elaine Stritch says, it never fails to bring like a choke to the throat because I get so teary-eyed whenever that moment happens.

[51:30] Daniel Nolen: Um, when all the girls, you know, from you know, if you've watched the documentary, you know that moment where all the ladies start coming out onto the stage and walking down the staircase to the front of the stage, and you hear the audience starting to applaud.

[51:43] Ben Rimalower: And it's just so like moving to me. And it's well, it's so powerful, and it also is very meta because um, you know, people talk about what we're missing from modern productions of Follies, is that in the original, they were these familiar people to the audience, whether it was Dorothy Collins from the TV shows or Alexis Smith and you know, from the old movies, and that the show is about nostalgia and about these people at the Follies reunion.

[52:10] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[52:10] Ben Rimalower: And there it was in a way a sense it was a reunion of the audience with these performers. And and you get that experience. I mean, certainly, you know, they're saying Sally Durant Plumber, but when Barbara Cook comes out to that audience on the live recording of the Follies concert, that's an audience that hasn't seen Barbara Cook on Broadway at all since 1971 or three or whatever when she did the Grass Harp.

[52:34] Daniel Nolen: And more likely they didn't see that flop, and they haven't seen her since "She Loves Me" or "The Music Manor," these musicals that they grew up on, you know, and that she was really the very voice of.

[52:44] Ben Rimalower: And so the applause feels like it's it's really uh it's so genuinely uh uh enthusiastic for each of these people. Carol Burnett, I mean, you know, uh Elaine Stritch, etc.

[52:58] Daniel Nolen: etc.

[52:59] Ben Rimalower: Well, and it also comes right after that that change in the music where in the original uh I'm not sure how they did at the at the Philharmonic, but you know, in the original uh uh stage production, it was the on-stage band kind of that was in the happening in the party that was going on.

[53:17] Daniel Nolen: They started playing the intros when all the ladies started walking down the stairs, and then that da-da-da-da.

[53:24] Ben Rimalower: Then it switches over to the full orchestra and they come in and start throwing it. And it's just like, oh god, spine tingling.

[53:31] Daniel Nolen: It probably wasn't as exciting visually in that respect at the Philharmonic, but certainly, you know, the the uh instrumentation takes an enormous jump there.

[53:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, that swell, and then and then the applause. And you know, I think the reason I love Folly so much, and I mean, certainly uh, you know, I'm sure many, many people like it for this reason as well, in addition to just like being a great piece of of uh musical theater. But it celebrates, you know, women of a certain age.

[54:02] Daniel Nolen: And so hearing people applaud for these kind of over the hill women, you know, and they're still being celebrated, uh, even though they're you know not these youthful corines anymore, um, that's moving.

[54:15] Ben Rimalower: And uh, and that's something that show business doesn't always um honor. I think also they talk a lot about like all the stuff you read about Folly's, um uh about how it was also about a certain kind of nostalgia because in the 70s when follies opened, the country had gone through so many changes and Vietnam and Watergate was coming and the sexual revolution, and you know, the cities were becoming uh crime ridden and polluted.

[54:46] Daniel Nolen: That's you know, what is it famously forward to New York City drop dead or whatever, you know.

[54:50] Ben Rimalower: And the this this talk take this follies reunion of these people that had been together in the 40s with these actual nostalgic performers, that it was about looking back at this more innocent time between the wars that the people in the audience could look back and remember.

[55:06] Daniel Nolen: And I've often thought, oh, you know, that's something that we can't relate to. However, I feel like maybe there's another chance for that in whatever the next incarnation of follies is because we're living in this crazy uh time now with um you know social media and post-pandemic and you know, uh Donald Trump, and you know, it's like the world has taken such a huge left turn and such a uh interesting and you know, in many ways terrifying direction that um I I think it remains to be seen, but it's possible that the period that we're in now is actually more dramatic and uh cataclysmic and you know, earth shattering than 1969 was.

[56:00] Ben Rimalower: And so I think ultimately in a couple of years when we see Follies again, it may be that, you know, for example, if we were to do Follies on Mars, I think that we would certainly, the audience would feel nostalgia for their own nostalgia of just like Broadway musicals before the earth became unlivable.

[56:23] Daniel Nolen: You know, so I think like there are other kinds of nostalgia that this show will still resonate with.

[56:29] Ben Rimalower: And I think, you know, to some extent, you know, us, even just as like that certain kind of show queen that likes old shit. I mean, you love all those old movies too. You know, I think that we do get it. And uh and Beautiful Girls is really when that really locks in and yeah, and I mean that that nostalgia bit, but it'll I think the thing about that I've got more about Follies this time around is the the nostalgia, yes, but also the darkness to it, kind of the the obviously that the final bit, the descent into the madness of it all. But it there's a very um uh I don't want to say nihilistic, but there's a very kind of uh doom this this kind of foreboding sense of doom, you know, surrounding like the crumbling theater, like these people who you don't know how they're gonna end up, how the relationships are gonna end up.

[57:24] Ben Rimalower: And I wanted to read this um this really brief uh segment from Frank Rich's original uh review written as a Harvard senior. Oh, and this is the one that they passed around uh backstage in Boston. Because his was kind of out of all the reviews in Boston, his was kind of the most intelligent and thought-provoking. And this is the opening paragraph. He says, These are old women coming down the staircase. They are dumpy, their hair is dyed, they don't exactly keep time with the music. They're not very secure, and for that matter, neither is the staircase they are descending. It's ratty, but it doesn't make any difference. The staircase is on the stage of a theater that is able to become a parking lot.

And the women, well, the women don't have much farther to go before they die. And I mean, that like just sent chills through me because I was like, that when you get down to it, like that is kind of what Follies does at its most severe is that it's like people confronting death, you know, and it's the nostalgia for the past, yes, but it's also nostalgia for like a time when they were youthful and like physically more able, and yeah, um and and with a love tomorrow implies that you have a tomorrow.

[58:36] Daniel Nolen: Exactly.

[58:37] Ben Rimalower: You love tomorrow. Like, what is tomorrow? Like, what does that mean? Um, and then at the end, you know, them kind of going out, and especially in the I don't remember how it was staged in London, but in the original staging, you know, the first time you see the outside world is at the end of that final number, and it's you see this New York City street and it's morning, and it's like the four of them walk out to whatever awaits. It's almost it's like a very poignant image of potentially the afterlife, you know, and or is this all a dream, or is this all purgatory? I mean, you can go as deep as you want, but I think that's you know, why it's such a brilliant show, and what Sondheim does so well is marry this kind of uh pastiche sensibility with this kind of dark, foreboding subject matter.

[59:27] Daniel Nolen: Well, it's so lethal. I mean, it's like uh people talk about how um One More Kiss is like the heart of the show.

[59:34] Ben Rimalower: Yes, yeah, and like I just kept thinking, like, um, wow, it's so chilling. I mean, the lyric never look back.

[59:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, you know.

[59:42] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, um the road you didn't take. I mean, there's so but but never look back. Like, it's almost like that sign, what is it in The Wizard of Oz, I'd turn back if I back if I were to go. It's like it this whole show is about looking back, and this message is actually, but you actually shouldn't look back. It's bad. This is gonna hurt you, you know.

[1:00:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[1:00:02] Ben Rimalower: Um, and uh it in a way it's a scarier show than Sweeney Todd, you know.

[1:00:07] Daniel Nolen: Well, and I think as one of our experts will say later, like uh, you know, that final segment he said I think was the most terrifying thing he'd seen on Broadway.

[1:00:16] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:00:17] Daniel Nolen: So well, speaking of looking, yes, okay, moving on along. For first solo, and this was a oh, well, to cut down on time, Daniel called it a duet. Uh, but so it's actually was not a pull. It was um we had Friend of the Pod, our fabulous Macon Prickett, um, came and talked to us about Don't Look at Me. And um, we're really split on this song. It's Sally's song that she sings uh in the beginning when she first uh sees Ben. And um Macon uh made a very strong case that he felt kind of all the things we were saying about Dorothy Collins in general, he felt right at the gate that uh out of the gate that this song that meant Dorothy Collins was his choice.

[1:01:07] Ben Rimalower: Um, I was split because I agreed with that, and when I watched that video, to me, there is no come there's no competition for Dorothy Collins. Um, but strictly on audio, for the years leading up to this moment in time, I have to say uh that my choice was the same as yours, Daniel, which was Bernadette.

[1:01:33] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:01:34] Ben Rimalower: Um, I remember when I saw the show thinking everyone else sings this song like a boring soprano, and Bernadette sings it like she's sometimes like you know, choice. Like she's doing everybody loves Louie in Sunday in the Park, you know. And it was just such a great at this point in the show, I was still in love with her performance because I felt like she's just, you know, it's it's she's just so full of personality, and every word just feels so loaded with intention and style, you know. And it's just so charming, and I mean, honestly, I was so on the fence as well. And I and I mean Dorothy Collins is a close, close second. But what did it to me is just that moment when um he's like, Do you still eat baby Ruth's for break? Or who ate baby roofs for breakfast? And she says, I still do sometimes. And the way she says sometimes is just so amazing. It's it's just like such a great line reading.

[1:02:37] Daniel Nolen: And enough to make you forget that Bernadette doesn't know what a baby Ruth is.

[1:02:41] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. She literally, yeah, it's like a laid stretch with Maulers. Baby Ruth, she probably thought was like a salty snack. But um, yeah, I mean, I I also think Bernadette's just so cute and charming.

[1:02:57] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, the way she don't look at me, you know, it's it's very flustered, but not uh but not annoyingly so. I mean, she's just so likable and and and does uh what Bernadette does well.

[1:03:09] Ben Rimalower: So and people have complained, one of the complaints about Bernadette's performance in the show, uh, was that she was too much uh of a mess from the beginning. Um I don't know if I 100% agree with that, but certainly the time when she would be the least of a mess, uh would be here. I mean, someone, I think it was um maybe our our friend Maddie O'Brien uh who said to me that Sally comes to this party, this reunion, 100% confident she is gonna walk out of there with Ben on her arm. She has been planning this. She's she's she's in it to win it. And whatever goes wrong over the course of the evening, she gets here, you know, rehearsed and good to go. And you know, don't forget, she's an old Follies girl.

So Sally knows how to rehearse, you know. And um, he didn't say that part. That was me. But um uh, and so if one's complaint about Bernadette was that that falls apart, certainly this is where it's the least fallen apart. And so, you know, we're sort of evenly split because I was kind of down the middle.

[1:04:26] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but I did like the fact that our um gypsy playlist uh had a little bit of variety, you know. I think I like that when we're split, we sort of favor variety.

[1:04:37] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:04:38] Daniel Nolen: Um I I that's that was that played some to my thinking as well. And so I could I could get behind uh Ms. Peters being her choice on that.

[1:04:48] Ben Rimalower: So is that our are we with that?

[1:04:50] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, uh yeah, baby.

[1:04:52] Ben Rimalower: I love I love seeing you enter the numbers in real time on the spreadsheet. This is so exciting.

[1:04:58] Daniel Nolen: Um well, next up is one of my favorite songs. It's the other song from Follies that I performed in a college review.

[1:05:07] Ben Rimalower: Really?

[1:05:08] Daniel Nolen: Waiting for the girls upstairs.

[1:05:09] Ben Rimalower: This is a hard song.

[1:05:11] Daniel Nolen: Well, I didn't did it well.

[1:05:13] Ben Rimalower: Did you do it alone?

[1:05:15] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no, no.

[1:05:15] Ben Rimalower: I did it with actually solo?

[1:05:17] Daniel Nolen: I no, it was it was a quartet. We did it without young and old separated, you know. We just cut that section a little bit. And um, I actually sent a uh message to the three people I did the song with when we were uh beginning this process just to say that I was having happy memories of them, and you know, it's nice to all be in touch again. Kind of like our own little reunion.

[1:05:40] Ben Rimalower: Um anyway, uh our expert on this.

[1:05:45] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well, this we have an expert here.

[1:05:47] Ben Rimalower: And so um the expert for this was am I getting this right now? I'm like, gotta look at the schedule.

[1:05:54] Daniel Nolen: Um the expert for this one. Yes, it's Jeff Bowen.

[1:05:59] Ben Rimalower: And it's so appropriate that we would have Jeff Bowen. Of course, he is one of the stars and one of the writers of Title of Show, and now here are this. And um, of course, both of those shows uh starred their two authors, uh, Jeff and his collaborator, the fabulous Hunter Bell, as well as uh the two actress singers, Heidi Blickenstaff and Susan Blackwell. And um being such a fabulous foursome who could absolutely someday do a revival of Follies somewhere. Um it seemed it seemed like a natural to get Jeff's take on this.

[1:06:42] Daniel Nolen: And uh so without further ado, let's hear it.

[1:06:46] Jeff Bowen: Hi, I'm Jeff Bowen. I write things and act and things, and I'm talking about waiting for the girls upstairs. My introduction to Follies uh was the 85 concert recording. Um actually it was seeing it on PBS in the 80s, and then I eventually purchased the double C D when I was in high school and played it pretty consistently with all the other Sondheim shows that I felt that I needed to be obsessed with. I actually may have already been full into into the woods before I picked up that Folly's CD. Um, so that CD was the one that I knew really well. When I was in college, I checked out from the library an LP of the original cast recording. I wasn't too into it because it it sounded sort of thin and less emphatic and less explosive than the the orchestra and the voices that I was used to from the concert recording.

But there was this simplicity about it that actually made me take Follies more seriously. No one, I think it's because no one on the recording knew that they were gonna be part of some huge legacy. Instead, they're just they're just singing the songs. Um there's no there's no historical mystique to buy into that sometimes I find sometimes can affect the way performances are done in revivals. Um if you're sort of buying into the legacy of a show as you're performing it. They weren't aware of what it was going to become. So I I dig that aspect of it. With my cast album obsession that I had in college, I eventually added the London production and then moving to New York, working my way through, you know, what seems to be uh Folly's revival every several years, all of which I totally enjoy.

And so for Waiting for the Girls Upstairs, first of all, I love any bouncy swirly melody with half steps all over the place and Jaunty Syncopations. So I was glad that I was asked to do this song. I mean, it's basically this is basically Sondheim via Jerry Herman via Jimmy Van Huzen, and I'm all for it. Okay, to the point, the challenge. The winner has is one half of one and one half of the other. That's right. Um, I'll work my way backwards. The second half of Waiting for the Girls Upstairs, um, I'm gonna go with the young cast that did the concert recording. But that was Liz Callaway, Daisy Prince, Jim Walton, and Howard McGillen. I mean, I understand this was young musical theater royalty to me. I wanted to be all four of these people. Um, so they're all just like major icons in my mind.

[1:09:43] Jeff Bowen: They're singers who don't need to act happiness, they just exude this sort of cheeriness and this old fashioned innocence that the song and the story needs to set up. So for me, just this full joy, joy, joy that's on display that this quartet is putting out is just remarkable. And so I'm gonna give the second half of the song to them. Now, the first half. So Lee Ramick, Barbara Cook are goddesses, and I'm, you know, I was obsessed with George Hearn and Mandy Patinkin again and my child of the 80s, so Shake Wavera and Surrat and Sweeney Todd and Albin. They're all just they're like, you know, those they're like fairy tale characters in my mind. But I'm gonna go with the original cast recording on the first half of the song, and here's why.

As Ben and Buddy, I feel like Gene Nelson and John McMartin sound like two men who are not in show business. And I mean that as a compliment. They're playing a salesman and a politician, I believe. And while they're, you know, certainly both accomplished musical theater performers, I hear two non-theater men talking about show girls the way two men who are not in show business would talk about show girls. There's just something really authentic about these performances. And for me, the hamminess that's required by the two roles by the time we get to Loveland in the production in my mind, should be kind of a surprise. I don't really need them to croon and swoon too many mornings or the right girl.

I don't want to believe that they're major musical theater forces until Buddy's Blues, until Live Laugh Love. So anyway, I'm gonna go with the original cast recording for the first half of the song and then switching over to the concert recording to the second half of the song. That is my vote for waiting for the girls upstairs. I have not been able to get this song out of my head for many, many days. Thank you for listening to me talk about that. I enjoyed it. Uh so wonderful to hear from Jeff Bowen. God, I love him so much. I just related to like every single thing he said, except I don't know exactly what a half step is, but I'm right there with it. Yeah, I mean, he said it so perfectly. Um, and I it looks like we both agree with him.

We we both agree with the first half of his choice. Yeah, I mean, I think, but we both chose the original, and he was split, and I think we're gonna go. Um we're gonna go, yeah. Um he's so right. That's exactly what I wrote down. It's like I love the original because it's so conversational. These guys are like reliving this memory. It's it's not like a big performance, it's just really casual. Um, and that's and especially for something like this song that's there's so much happening and totally. Totally. I love at the end whenever there's the girls and the guys singing together, and it's you told us Tony. It just becomes so like fun to listen to. So you don't need all that Michigas mucking it up.

No, I mean, and and it's exactly what we were saying about the original cast members in general in the roles, and um, and this particular the beginning where it's just a duet for Ben and Buddy is really it's such um it's such great character material between the two of them. It's really it's such a wonderful. I mean, you could really do this actually, you know, if you're a high school or college musical theater teacher, you could do it just as a duet for two guys and just cut it off before the women come on. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it would absolutely work. Um, anyway, so all right, so we're we've settled on waiting for the girls. Yeah. And they never come. Yeah. Moving on, the next number is Rain on the Roof.

And pity Pat. This was we had friend of the pod, Taryn Stane, whom we love so much, a regular regular commenter in our live stream show next year, some year, and call all the way from South Africa. And her choice was the um 85 concert recording, where it is an actual show business team, mostly known as writers, but initially established as performers in the beginning of their career and then later on in a hit review called A Party with Comden and Green. Um so Betty Comden and Adolph Green, and um that was Daniel's choice too. A um Taryn, I think had said that she loved that they were clearly uh people that you know uh were sort of it they certainly sound like they haven't done this in a while, and they're just like they're you know, at a reunion getting back to it, and um, and of course they have so much chemistry uh together.

I'm a whore, and while I respect that choice, I did prefer the um London production because I just like uh a little more restaurant quality. Um, you know, it's like why I prefer Liza as Sally Bowles and Natasha Richardson, you know. Um I mean, this is like the most Liza I've ever heard right on the roof, for sure. Um recurring mad at it. Um, so I think that the uh playlist has to go with the Daniel and Taryn choice. Yeah, Comden and Green. It's just they keep it light, they keep it breezy. I'm also prejudiced against them because they remind me so much of my grandparents. Uh-oh. Um, there's just so much mouthfeel. Uh-oh. Do you know what I mean? I can just like hear Adolph Green's dentures. I can like I can like taste the pickled herring that Betty Comden had for lunch.

Stop. You can hear, you can feel hear those dentures going pit pity pat. I just I really they they are just such old Jews, like of a generation that like I am familiar with. And it's like a little too close to home. I need to go, I need to get in that West End with some performers to fake it. Well, where you need to go, you need to take a trip to Paris. Um and I think for this one, we're all in agreement. Um, this was our first poll song. Yes. Um and uh which was interesting because I'm sure most of my followers at least hadn't heard of most of these people. Um maybe Mary Beth Peel. But um, I think we're in agreement that uh Lillian from Needie. Yes, Lillian Montevecchi took it across the board.

Um fun fact, she also performed the role in the Paper Mill Playhouse production, um which was recorded, um, but sadly is not available streaming, although hopefully that will change um something with our influence. Yes, hopefully. Um but uh, you know, I I was fascinated when we were doing our research, um, that Fifi Dorsay, uh, who originated the role of uh Salange, um, was the person's according to Wikipedia who made the expression oolala famous. Um, right, right. So that was fun to know, but ultimately, like I mean, Lillian Montevecchi was legitimately a performer at the Folly Bergère. And she was legitimately French. I mean, I don't think I think maybe she was the only truly French person out of all these salon.

I think Fifi was French too, no? I think she was Canadian. Oh, like French Canadian, yeah. Lillian is also is legitimately French, and just in addition to all the like legitimacy she brings to the role, she's also like a belter and just like a great performer, and and a little bit like second generation Sondheim in the sense that like, you know, I don't know if she saw the original production of Follies, but she certainly like um, you know, saw Angela and Sweeney Todd, you know, and she is there to like deliver uh on the gig. And and she really just gives it that like that like real down and dirty French where she's just like you can like almost hear like the phlegm in her throat. She borrowed some of Adolph Green's phlegm so she can get a little belt in on it.

Yeah, I mean, and listen, I love me some MVP Mary Beth Peel, but uh when she sings it, it's very like I've been practicing my French accent for a month now, and here's what I got. It's I mean, there's no real authenticity to it as far as like the cultural uh, you know, whatever uh side of things. But Lillian really more than anyone gives you that. So absolutely. Absolutely, absolutely. Um, however, the one thing I will say about uh Fifi is from the Ted Chapin book, she seems like the biggest Eva out of everyone, and at one point uh threatened to leave if she didn't get equal billing to Yvonne DeCarlo, and um, and she was flitting around the set all the time saying ooh and you know, gossiping, so she did she definitely seemed like one you wanted to keep your eye out for.

Um, hilarious. Uh oh shoot, I just did something wrong. Um next up is uh one of the most famous songs from the show. Yeah, easily one of Sondheim's um, you know, top bops of all of all his career. For sure, yeah. It's a song that the very first time you hear it, you immediately love it and know it. Yeah, yeah. And it is Broadway Baby. Broadway Baby. Um it was another poll, and the poll was won uh handily by the legendary Elaine Stritch, who made that a standard for her the rest of her career, but uh first sang it in this 85 Follies concert. Um I disagree, Daniel was on the same page as the voters uh choosing Elaine, and I I understand that because I love Elaine and she's undeniable. I will say that I ultimately, for my choice, I did pick Ethel Shutta and the original production.

Um because I feel like I don't the Elaine performance is so much about Elaine. Yeah. Like, and I like a performance to be a lot about the star themselves. You know? Um, like I would say Patty's performance in most roles is at least 40% about herself. Some people would say 100. You know, but like this to me feels like it's like 90% about Elaine and 10% about the material. And I feel like Ethel Shutta, uh, especially when you watch her, for example, in that um rehearsal footage. Oh, yeah. It's so joyful. The reason I say more so than the album is because the original cast recording is truncated, which is why there is no recording of Rain on the Roof on the original cast recording. And uh Broadway Baby is shortened, and so she doesn't get to sing what is my favorite verse of hers in the live performances, which is at my tiny flat, there's just my cat, where Ethel Shutta does some talk about dirty show business bit of kicking the cat.

I I gued at that. It's so gaffa-worthy, and I just feel like her performance is like she's like, she's like, you don't know me. I'm just like the fat waitress at this diner that you're gonna fall in love with. Yeah. And um Elaine Stritch is like, I am Patti LuPone and her father. Right. Right. Well, and Ethel was the oldest member of the company, and um she this stopped the show every night. Uh and I I've seen that footage of her, and I love her so so much. I think, you know, I think was it you who said it's very like dirty showbiz? It's like she's pulling out all her tricks, like the stomping and the pointing and the moving around. It's like she's working with what she got in that like glittery green uh suit she's wearing.

And uh I love her so much, and also in the book, she's kind of the one I came away loving the most because she's just seems like she had a mouth on her, and some of the one-liners she dropped rivaled, you know, Marilyn May, Elaine Stritch, and just she seems like a real good time. However, I had to stick by my pick for Elaine because although it is quite self-indulgent, you're very correct. I just, it's so fun to listen to, and it's she really just takes it to the next level, even if that level is just Elaine world. Alright, well, you heard it, ladies and gentlemen. I hoped that I could convince Daniel to come over to my side, but he has stayed with Elaine. I said, Sha'ed the door. Shaate East Day. Um, okay, the next song we have another expert for. [1:23:25] Adam Feldman: And here to talk to us about the road you didn't take is the Time Out New York theater and cabaret critic and editor.

[1:23:34] Adam Feldman: Hello, this is Adam Feldman from Time Out New York, and I'm here to talk about the road you didn't take. Everybody's favorite song from Follies. I'm kidding, it is nobody's favorite song from Follies, but I do think it is a very underrated song and a beautiful song, a complex song that goes to the heart of what Sondheim and Goldman are doing in this show, and also provides key dramatic insight into one of the central characters at this point in the plot of the show. So before we go into any specific performances, I do want to talk a bit about the song itself and what makes it so special. This is a song that is sung by the character of Ben Stone, who is rich and famous and worldly and by all outside measures, seems like a great success.

And in this song, Ben claims that he has no regrets at all about the decisions that he has made that have led him to this point in his life, and he is lying. And the music that undergirds the lyric gives us enough dissonance to consistently make us wary of taking what Ben says at face value. And the song is also paired with a different song by Sally in Buddy's Eyes that is also a lie. In her case, it is a lie about how happy she is in her very unhappy marriage. As the title, The Road You Didn't Take, suggests, this song can be understood in a sense as an inversion or a gloss on Robert Frost's very famous poem, The Road Not Taken. In that poem, the narrator imagines himself many years from now looking back on his life with a sigh and blaming the course of his life on the unconventional path that he took many years ago.

In this version, on the other hand, Ben is looking back on what seems to be a very successful and very conventional life and appearing to do so without any kind of regret. But in fact, if you look at the lyric, it's quite clear that he thinks about the mistakes that he's made all the time and what he's missed out on all the time. And so this apparently very confident song is actually the crumbling edifice of denial, of Ben's own denial about his own choices. And the song ends with a beautiful couplet: uh, The Ben I'll Never Be, Who Remembers Him, that I think is so moving and powerful. This is a show, Follies, that is full of ghosts, of ghosts of the past, of things that were. But this is in this image, Ben summons a different kind of ghost.

It's a ghost of something that never was and that might have been. And that it seems that Ben, despite his denial, uh, Ben thinks about uh quite a lot. Um, and in fact, if you look at the lyric, you can see the seeds of the fragmentation that will eventually lead Ben to his nervous breakdown at the end of the show. And one thing that I find very interesting about this lyric is the way that Ben refers to himself in so many different ways. Sometimes he uses the first person, I, sometimes he uses the second person, you, sometimes he uses the impersonal third person, one, sometimes he uses a very specific personal third person, Benjamin Stone. And I I think we get a sense in this of his own fragmentation and also the tensions that are going on in this process that he's analyzing in himself.

And he does seem aware and to some extent self-ironizing a little bit about the process of describing his denial. Um, and that makes him very different in that regard from from, say, Sally, who doesn't seem very self aware at all. So this brings us to the question of what the best version of this song is that we can easily access online from a cast recording. And I will say that there are several versions of the song that are very well sung. Uh so that would include, for example, George Hearn on the 1985 concert version and Ron Rains on the Broadway Revival album, and Philip Quast on the London Revival album. And these are all fine. And I particularly like the decision on the Broadway Revival album to include the brief cutaway dialogue scenes in the middle of the song that show the young Ben talking with young Buddy and young Phyllis, and that depict his early obsession with money and status in a very poignant way.

But ultimately, I think that what you want to go for here is the John McMartin version on the original cast recording. And in some ways, that's because he is not as good a singer as the others, uh, paradoxically. With with John McMartin, I think you really get a good sense of a particular character of a person wrestling with his demons and all the complexities that the lyric uh involves. And also a person, because of his vocal limitations, a person straining to achieve the effects of the song. So when John McMartin goes up to a big note, you know, I won't rem I don't remember at all. You hear the effort that it takes, you hear the strain of that denial in a way that you don't get a sense of with the vocalists who provide a more comfortable, mellifluous and resonant sound in this song. And so for all those reasons, I think that the best, the most memorable version of this song to take, is the original Broadway cast recording.

[1:28:17] Ben Rimalower: Adam has such a good speaking voice.

[1:28:19] Daniel Nolen: He does.

[1:28:20] Ben Rimalower: I I love what he had to say too. I mean, first of all, I hadn't thought about the different like uh like you know, pronouns or you know, noun forms or whatever that hashtag impersonal third person. Thank you. Um and uh it really just speaks to how deeply intertwined uh and how brilliant the the rich tapestry of this score is because it made me think, you know, who's that woman actually resonates some of that too. It's like they really there's a lot of like echoing of the themes within the other uh sections. Um it's uh it's funny that he talks about the strain in John McMartin's voice on the big notes um being a good thing, because it really I would if you told me that and I'd never heard it, I would disagree. And yet, and yet I absolutely love that point. We know that I won't remember, I won't remember at all. I think it's so beautiful the way that his voice sort of um hurts to go there, you know.

[1:29:28] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:29:28] Ben Rimalower: Well, and I and I like that Adam points out about the the underscoring, which is in contrast, uh, you know, kind of dissonant to show the internal state, because that's the same music that you get during the beginning of Don't Look at Me.

[1:29:42] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:29:42] Ben Rimalower: Um, live me bring you live and in person. Uh and uh so that was interesting. Also, uh I love uh this song comes right before In Buddy's Eyes, which obviously is Sally's next number, but they're both kind of like the lying denial songs, you know. It's like they're they're singing it, and we as the audience know and feel that they're not telling the truth or they're they're you know mistakenly singing about something else. And so I I like that these are paired together.

[1:30:17] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[1:30:17] Ben Rimalower: And it's interesting that they they're both lying to say that they're happy when they're both actually yearning for something that they didn't get. And uh for him, that's what like some whole other life less buttoned up than the one he has lived. For her, it's very specifically him that she didn't get. Um, but that's also you know, in a way, they're the same. And you know, you could just say that a woman in her time, it was all about who you married, and so therefore, you know, the thing that she uh didn't get is the guy that she was in love with when she was young. For him, it was about the adventures he would have, and you know, whatever um but both of us agreed that the John McMartin one was the best. That's a unison choice.

[1:31:01] Daniel Nolen: Well, and one just on a musical note, uh-huh. Uh, uh on this song, I just love the orchestrations um kind of in the middle of the song where it's like it's those kind of s and and just the the melody in general, it's just so sweeping and beautiful, it's like I don't remember. I don't know. It's very it reminds me of uh Finishing the Hat where he's like when the woman that you're wanting goes, it's just like yes, oh god, it's just so it's so beautiful to listen to and I'm sure to sing.

[1:31:33] Ben Rimalower: Or when Betty Buckley sings it, and when the lover that you wanted goes. Um, which by the way, I love her version from uh her London concert. Also, not streaming. Um I would love to hear Barbara Streisand's special lyrics for this song. Oh, fuck my life. Um I uh I also I I you know I I love anyone can whistle and company both very much, especially company, but in a in a weird way, because uh anyone can whistle. I think Sondheim was like almost fully formed, but not quite yet. And company he's fully formed, but the s but it's such a specific sound of that promises, promises 1970 like kind of music, you know. And even though half of the score of Follies are these pastiche songs that are like set in the 40s or whatever, the songs that are in real time, The Road You Didn't Take and In Buddy's Eyes, for example, I think that they are really the the real first iteration of like the fully mature Sondheim. And maybe, you know, thinking about, you know, at least in terms of the orchestration, like maybe the best it ever has been, you know.

[1:32:44] Daniel Nolen: Right, for sure.

[1:32:44] Ben Rimalower: And it gives you a taste of that kind of sweeping romanticism that you will see fully in like like Sweeney Todd or something. But you know, Sweeney Todd also is like a genre piece, you know, and and um, you know, Sun in the park and into the woods are sort of somewhat limited by their surroundings. And even a little night music, which is so glorious, is so much uh in its world. It's like these songs in Follies that are not the pastiche numbers, they might be my favorite Sondheim score, you know.

[1:33:18] Daniel Nolen: Uh yeah, I agree.

[1:33:20] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I I I can't argue with you there. And this song is certainly like, I mean, I know Adam joked about it being nobody's favorite. And it's certainly, you know, not it's if I had to choose, it's not my favorite. But when I watched uh the London production for the first time, this was the one that stuck out to me because I hadn't known it that well. And this was the one that kind of moved me the most out of all of them.

[1:33:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I I've always I've always been extremely moved by it. And you know, there's just so it's such an embarrassment of riches with this score. Um another one that I feel that way about, and that was a poll was In Buddy's Eyes, and the voters chose handily a victory for Barbara Cook.

[1:34:03] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:34:03] Daniel Nolen: And so did you and I. And I think it's pretty clear that this song uh goes so uh, you know, into the really sort of like stratospheric soprano range. And it must be said that Dorothy Collins is still effortless there.

[1:34:22] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:34:23] Daniel Nolen: So somebody who is really a pop singer, yeah, it's really impressive that she can just get all up there, you know, what is it, above the staff. I mean, you know, what does she say? I don't know if it's A's or G's or whatever, you know, but and just effortlessly hit those notes. I mean, you could really make a case for Dorothy Collins here. Um, but it that's Barbara Cook's stock and trade, you know.

[1:34:49] Ben Rimalower: And Barbara Cook's money notes are those notes, and it's you know, I mean, Barbara Cook is arguably the greatest soprano in musical theater history. And she just, you know, in a way, Barbara Cook's version of In Buddy's Eyes is a more important Barbara Cook recording than vanilla ice cream or glitter and be gay, you know.

[1:35:09] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:35:09] Ben Rimalower: And it's just so glorious, and um it's uh it's hard to resist. And that said, Julia McKenzie uh on that London recording is no slouch. I mean, here she is, someone who can uh gorgeously, powerfully, compellingly, with star quality, sing those high notes too. And it's a fabulous recording of In Buddy's Eyes. It doesn't quite have the fine beauty or um the uh you know, just the soaring quality of Barbara Cook's.

[1:35:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:35:50] Ben Rimalower: I mean, Barbara really does just take it to that next level, and also her voice lends itself so well to kind of this longing, you know.

[1:35:58] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, because she's singing in Buddy's Eyes, but especially it gives me chills when she when she goes back and starts singing it again. And um, you know, she starts over after a little break, it gets a little softer, and then she's like, in Buddy's eyes, and she starts again, and it's like, oh, she's singing to Ben now. Like this is no longer her, you know, she it you realize like this is her denial, and and so when she goes to that place, it becomes really, really extra moving.

[1:36:26] Ben Rimalower: Absolutely.

[1:36:27] Daniel Nolen: Um, and and unfortunately, you know, this is the first place where I was like watching Bernadette, and I was like, oh, it's not working out, you know.

[1:36:36] Ben Rimalower: And I feel that way on the album too.

[1:36:38] Daniel Nolen: It's it, it's it's funny because I remember thinking that Bernadette could sing this great because um she's so beautiful in that mixy place between the belt and the soprano. And even this goes like real legit soprano in a place that you don't necessarily think of her. I mean, she has done that. I mean, she did um, well, famously the last note in Unexpected Song, but that song is so fucked up to do that that I don't think anybody's a fan of anybody's hitting that note. Um, but uh, but like on her Sondheim uh concert album, like when she sings um Henrik's song from Night Music later, um, I don't I don't know what key that's in, but it's in it's still fucking crazy high when she has to hit those notes. I mean, I don't think I don't think they're like a B flat like he hits, but they're certainly higher than anything Patty Lepone ever recorded, you know.

[1:37:34] Ben Rimalower: Sure, yeah. Um and um I think that they're in the range of where Sally has to go. So I thought she uh would do it, but I mean, I have to say for me, Bernadette's problem in "In Buddy's Eyes" is not her acting, it is the vocal.

[1:37:49] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:37:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, and that'll that will be even more of a problem later on, as we'll as we get to. And uh speaking of places that's a problem, if there's one song I don't need to hear Imelda Staunton sing, now I I know that it's cold, Imelda Staunton is Cole Scola's favorite Sally across the board.

[1:38:09] Daniel Nolen: Really?

[1:38:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that individual songs he might prefer a different thing.

[1:38:14] Daniel Nolen: I thought Cole didn't like Imelda.

[1:38:15] Ben Rimalower: He hated Imelda, but he came around.

[1:38:18] Daniel Nolen: He turned a corner.

[1:38:19] Ben Rimalower: He loves her in Follies more than anyone else.

[1:38:22] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well.

[1:38:23] Ben Rimalower: We I I really need to break break this down with him. That's so fascinating to me. I don't think he has seen that LA rehearsal footage of Dorothy Collins. I think he could still be converted, but regardless, he's not gonna start hating Imelda.

[1:38:37] Daniel Nolen: Well, that makes me happy. I mean, I'm I'm glad that he's come around on Imelda, at least for this show.

[1:38:43] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah. Um we do not need to come around on are this next uh winner of our next song, "Who's That Woman," who well, I guess you didn't vote for her, but the listeners and I voted for Miss Terry White.

[1:39:01] Daniel Nolen: Now, first of all, I have to say that before I even get to Terry White singing of "Who's That Woman" as Stella Deems or Phyllis Newman singing it, uh, or Mary McCarty on the original or anybody else, I have to choose the '85 concert because of the dialogue that precedes it.

[1:39:25] Ben Rimalower: Where it starts with Phyllis Newman as Stella going, if I do this number, we all do this number. You in Sally, and Barbara Cook says, um, this number winded me when I was 19, and everybody laughs because she weighs 300 pounds. And then she says, you in Phil, and Lee Remick says to Barbara, if I can do it, if you can do it, I can do it. And then she says to, and then Phyllis Newman says to um Elaine Stritch, how about you, Hattie? And Elaine Stritch says, the funniest line ever spoken in the history of recordings. I haven't danced in 40 years.

[1:40:11] Daniel Nolen: I have to choose this track for that.

[1:40:15] Ben Rimalower: And then secondly, I would still, I still choose Phyllis Newman because I like the way that she just reminds me of when I first saw the video on PBS. And I was like, I don't know. There's all these people singing in head voice. These songs aren't as melodic as Andrew Lloyd Webber's brilliant score for Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. I don't think I can fall in love with this. I'm only stupid and 11 or whatever. But when I heard Phyllis Newman go, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, Lord, I was sold.

[1:40:54] Daniel Nolen: But you know, if you like Phyllis Newman saying Lord Lord, you know who you'll love saying Lord Lord.

[1:40:59] Ben Rimalower: I know.

[1:40:59] Daniel Nolen: Terry White is the beltiest.

[1:41:00] Ben Rimalower: But I have to say that the truth is my favorite version of the whole song is the original Mary McCarty, who it must be said, was also the original Mama Morton in Chicago.

[1:41:13] Daniel Nolen: Oh wow.

[1:41:15] Ben Rimalower: And did uh the tour of Gypsy, where Bernadette Peters played um Dainty June. Wow. And is a fabulous belter in a, you know, uh and by the way, it does a on this famous Sondheim Scrabble Letters Benefit concert recording. She sings "The Little Things You Do Together" extremely well. Um I love Lisa Mary McCarty. She is a close second, mostly just because I live for her.

[1:41:45] Daniel Nolen: I love the way when she comes back on the chorus.

[1:41:47] Ben Rimalower: Hit it's the last time when she she's like, baby's that woman? She's the only one that I can't do it right, but there's something slightly different about the melody there. Um, or maybe it's something that she just improvises, you know, or and is allowed to keep. But um, but it's it's different when she sings that final chorus, and I love it.

[1:42:09] Daniel Nolen: And for me, the problem with Terry White, who I'm a huge fan of. I mean, I used to see her at the Duplex for years and years and years. I saw her sing at the Duplex the first night I moved to New York City. And I saw her uh sing at um the former piano bar Rose's Turn the night it closed. I mean, I love her album when she sings "Everything Must Change." Thrilling. I used to live for her version of um uh what's it called? Um "The World Goes Round" uh more than Liza.

[1:42:40] Ben Rimalower: Whoa.

[1:42:40] Daniel Nolen: But um, but to me, she starts this song off at an 11 and stays there. Um I mean, I for this number, it's kind of, you know, it's the it's the big number of the show. Like this was kind of the showstopper.

[1:42:56] Ben Rimalower: Um, I mean, especially when it first premiered.

[1:43:03] Daniel Nolen: And um a lot of times whenever they were trying out intermissions, they would take the intermission after this song just because it was such a crowd pleaser. Um, so I think that's why I love Terry so much, is because she's such a powerhouse beltress that it really gives it that excitement and energy that you need to kind of pull off this huge dance number in the middle of Follies, you know.

[1:43:28] Ben Rimalower: Well, I I I can't convince you and the voters. So this one goes to Miss Terry White.

[1:43:37] Daniel Nolen: All right. We got that means we got two for the 2011 revival for those keeping score at home.

[1:43:44] Ben Rimalower: Sorry, I wrote I wrote the wrong thing. I said I was I said it was Terry White.

[1:43:48] Daniel Nolen: And then I love it.

[1:43:53] Ben Rimalower: Um well next up is the ultimate Showbiz anthem to end all ultimate Showbiz anthems.

[1:44:02] Daniel Nolen: I'm still here.

[1:44:03] Ben Rimalower: Yes.

[1:44:04] Daniel Nolen: And we had a poll, and the voters chose Yvonne DeCarlo in the original production.

[1:44:12] Ben Rimalower: And both Daniel and I went with that. I will say that I was really torn. As a matter of fact, I don't know if you looked, Daniel, but in in even on the spreadsheet up until yesterday, I had it as Dolores Gray.

[1:44:23] Daniel Nolen: Oh, it was a gray area.

[1:44:26] Ben Rimalower: And there were even times when I really considered other people. I mean, the one person I did not consider, although I for years it was my had been my favorite recording when I was younger, was Carol Burnett.

[1:44:37] Daniel Nolen: Um, but I mean I certainly love Tracy Bennett's version from the um from the what do you call it, the National Theater Production.

[1:44:45] Ben Rimalower: And uh I really love Dolores. The thing I had against Yvonne DeCarlo, the reason I wouldn't just choose her right from right uh from the beginning is because that version, her version, like the other things on the original cast album is truncated.

[1:44:59] Daniel Nolen: And I I love this song so much, and it breaks my heart to have it be not the whole song.

[1:45:07] Ben Rimalower: That said, it's still fucking long enough as it is. It's so long. And um, it's uh, you know, I I love Dolores Gray so much. I mean, there probably has never been uh a belter as fierce as her in any role in Follies.

[1:45:25] Daniel Nolen: I guess maybe Susan Johnson.

[1:45:27] Ben Rimalower: Um, but I mean I would say Dolores Gray even takes the cake over Karen Morrow as far as like belter power goes. Um, you know, she's sort of like an Ethel Merman, except like with an edge and who can act, you know.

[1:45:42] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure I know Ethel Merman was like famously a cunt, but like, but I mean, an edge in her, you know, Ethel Merman's performances had like a had a happy go lucky quality to them.

[1:45:52] Ben Rimalower: Um and uh, but the thing is it's like Yvonne, you know, Dolores Gray had a career as a sort of B list Broadway star who also had like had like a couple of like Hollywood moments, you know.

[1:46:09] Daniel Nolen: But uh Yvonne DeCarlo really was like a C-list Hollywood performer who um was then the familiar to audiences, had just finished her long run as Lily Munster on the Munsters.

[1:46:25] Ben Rimalower: And I just feel like you hear that, like uh, you know, you know Dolores Gray did this like right in between like starring in the West End in like big productions of Broadway musicals. You know, she did "Name There" and "Annie Get Your Gun" and stuff, and it's like, you know, she was sorry, she replaced Angela Lansbury in "Name There."

[1:46:44] Daniel Nolen: And it's like whereas Yvonne DeCarlo really just seems like the ultimate like showbiz like survivor, just like in the trenches, you know.

[1:46:53] Ben Rimalower: Totally, totally. She there's a world weariness to her performance that really gets me.

[1:46:59] Daniel Nolen: And I think that's why.

[1:47:01] Ben Rimalower: I mean, for a Carlotta, that's what I really want is kind of someone.

[1:47:04] Daniel Nolen: I mean, as the song says, you know, I'm still here. I've been there, I've gone through it, I've been through the mill. And um I think Yvonne's unique uh performance does that really well.

[1:47:15] Ben Rimalower: And I love me some Carol Burnett, and I love Carol's voice. I think Carol has a really underrated voice.

[1:47:21] Daniel Nolen: But I think her "I'm Still Here" is a it's just it's it's not that, you know, it doesn't quite give me that that I want.

[1:47:31] Ben Rimalower: It's also an unfair competition because Carol is a whole generation younger than Yvonne and Dolores.

[1:47:38] Daniel Nolen: And so the best she's ever gonna do is be acting.

[1:47:41] Ben Rimalower: Whereas, like, you know, Dolores and Yvonne like remember a lot of these world events that are mentioned in the song.

[1:47:48] Daniel Nolen: Um also just one more thing of why I chose Yvonne over Dolores, even though it's truncated, is that I kind of feel like you can feel Dolores licking her lips, being like, I can't wait to do this in my concert career.

[1:48:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:48:00] Ben Rimalower: You know, she's like, this song is gonna be with me till the day I die. Whereas Yvonne DeCarlo, it feels to me like she's just going through the message.

[1:48:10] Daniel Nolen: Well, well, and also Yvonne for months she had been singing "Can That Boy Foxtrot." I mean, this was like added at the last minute famously, and so she had to learn this huge new song.

[1:48:22] Ben Rimalower: Um, you know, so she really had no, I mean, obviously that she had no context for it because it was the original cast, but um, I mean, uh even extra, extra s weird was the fact that she hadn't been singing this song for the same amount of time that the rest of these people had been singing their songs.

[1:48:40] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[1:48:41] Ben Rimalower: And and by the way, uh another person that I did not consider at all, even though I enjoyed watching her do the number was Elaine Paige.

[1:48:50] Daniel Nolen: Um I guess in a way, Elaine Paige, I feel like even more so than Dolores Gray.

[1:48:55] Ben Rimalower: Uh it's just and I it's not that I think Elaine Paige is not an actor, but for her to do a song like this, there's no way that it's not gonna become like about her.

[1:49:05] Daniel Nolen: And and that's okay, but then who she is is not somebody who's just been this like topsy turvy up and down showbiz survivor.

[1:49:16] Ben Rimalower: I mean, Elaine Paige, you know, for decades was at the top of British musical theater royalty.

[1:49:21] Daniel Nolen: And even since that ended, she's been the, you know, she's a survivor with almost no low points, you know.

[1:49:27] Ben Rimalower: And I mean, I'm sure there's low points. I'm sure she was fucking pissed when like, you know, Patty or Betty got to do her parts on Broadway or Judy Kuhn or whatever, you know.

[1:49:35] Daniel Nolen: But like, it's not the same.

[1:49:37] Ben Rimalower: You don't picture Elaine Paige touring in stock, you know.

[1:49:41] Daniel Nolen: May maybe now, but not then, you know.

[1:49:44] Ben Rimalower: Uh yeah, I agree.

[1:49:46] Daniel Nolen: And well, and just we have to shout out the final one, Tracy Bennett, who actually came very close to winning the poll, I believe.

[1:49:53] Ben Rimalower: At least on Instagram.

[1:49:54] Daniel Nolen: Well, y'all have the advantage of being able to watch her do it.

[1:49:57] Ben Rimalower: And like Carol Burnett, she's someone that doesn't make it about herself at all.

[1:50:02] Daniel Nolen: It's totally performing the character.

[1:50:04] Ben Rimalower: But unlike Carol Burnett, I think that she uh, well, she's not the star of the Caribette is, so she can disappear into it.

[1:50:10] Daniel Nolen: And also, I mean, I'm maybe this is just me, but having seen her and loved her as Judy Garland in End of the Rainbow, um, it's like to me, she's always a little Judy, so it feels a little bit like what if Judy had done this.

[1:50:27] Ben Rimalower: Oh, interesting.

[1:50:28] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, she does look very Judy.

[1:50:29] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I I really enjoyed it, I remember enjoying her performance in this. Very, very much.

[1:50:36] Daniel Nolen: So yeah, I mean, you know, it's certainly uh I didn't dislike any of these versions, but I'm but I'm happy to see uh the original recording uh take it.

[1:50:46] Ben Rimalower: And um our next song, uh "Too Many Mornings," the glorious soaring duet between Ben and Sally. Uh we had Friend of the Pod.

[1:50:59] Daniel Nolen: Uh was this um Caitlin Duffy Hall.

[1:51:02] Ben Rimalower: Um I couldn't tell you.

[1:51:04] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[1:51:05] Ben Rimalower: I have the I have my list.

[1:51:07] Daniel Nolen: You got the receipts?

[1:51:08] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, where why can't I find it, Liza?

[1:51:10] Daniel Nolen: I cannot, I cannot remember for the life of me talking about this.

[1:51:13] Ben Rimalower: Yes. This was Caitlin Duffy Hall.

[1:51:27] Ben Rimalower: And Daniel and I both agreed.

[1:51:29] Ben Rimalower: And I think it actually goes back very much to what we were saying about Barbara Cook in "In Buddy's Eyes." Um, and it also what I said earlier about George Hearn with the vocal richness, like, you know, obviously I'm a ladies' man when it comes to musical theater. I would rather have Saddam Hussein sing the man's part so that I could get the woman I wanted than have them both be wonderful. Um, but with that, it doesn't hurt to have George Hearn, who's just, you know, as just rich and gorgeous as can be. And um, you know, if there was ever a moment where Bernadette really was at C vocally. I mean, yeah, at C, at also C S E A. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I think that while Bernadette has those soprano notes, I think that having to do them together with all this other stuff in the song that's not so soprano-y, you know, it really, I don't think she was able to go back and forth with agility.

And um, it really, I mean, I hate to say this because I wanted her to be good in Follies, and I still kind of think with the right director she could be. But in this song, it almost felt to me like a little like people are gonna be so offended by this. But like it reminded me almost of like Glenn Close in Sunset Boulevard. Oh, you, I know that's them's in words. And uh, I mean, because you know, this song really has to soar. I mean, this song definitely requires Soprano Sally to put her soprano skirt on, you know. And I mean, but there is a way around that. Um, you know, I thought going into this with a Melda Stanton, like, oh god, what did I ever do to deserve having to listen to her try her hand at this?

Um, try her tiny, tiny little hand. But it's not true because she changes the key and she goes down the octave on some of the notes. I mean, that's really what they should have done for Bernie. But it's like, you know, I mean, it's it's it's such a letdown. I mean, for Amelda to do that, you're like, thank you. Okay, good choice, girl. You know, whereas like Bernadette, it almost would be like, you know, more heartbreaking because yeah, very glowing. You know. Um, so I mean, I agree with you. I mean, yeah, Barbara and um, George, obviously the first choice. I love the footage of them singing it because you know, I mean, he's just like fucking blasting into her poor eardrum. I want to say about George Hearn in that uh respect.

I remember so well when I was the um, uh assistant director on the Philharmonic's We Need Todd with George and Patty LuPone, and we did it in a couple other cities and for television also, so I spent a lot of time on it. And I would often because the thing about that production was that while there were these musical theater performers like Patty and George, uh, you know, and and other people like that, uh, Davis Gaines and Neil Patrick Harris. Um, there were also legitimate opera stars in it. Like on the album we recorded in New York, the um, Joanna was Heidi Grant Murphy, that was a very uh important young soprano at the time. And uh, Paul Plishka was a great opera uh bass, was um the judge.

And um, I remember thinking when these opera singers would sing that their voices were so, it was so clear that everything about their technique was for the express purpose of emanating a full, rich, beautiful sound. And it would just fill my soul to stand there and hear them sing, especially when we'd move into, you know, the actual venues where the performances would be. And that was much less true of the musical theater people. Even my beloved belter, Patty LuPone, you know, and it's also Mrs. Love, it's a very different kind of a part. You know, but Patty arguably sang it in a way operatically more than, you know, certainly more than Angela, you know. But like still, I feel like she'd be like, you know, like, I've crossed one, like, ah, puffling, masks, you know, and it's just this weird, small, I hate to say it, put giving her a taste of her own medicine, pinched voice, you know, and and these as opposed to these opera singers who would just plant their feet and line up their resonators and sound for days. And I have to say, one of the performers in that show who was no less rich than the opera singers, George Hearn. Yes. It was absolutely on their level in that department.

[1:56:31] Daniel Nolen: I love hearing that. I mean, there is I uh there's uh an upcoming song where I think George is just magnificent. And yes, we'll talk about that later. I'm so excited to get there. Yeah, I love him so much. Oh my god, I just cheated and peaked. Anyway, um, okay, so um, uh this was choice, and you know, like we said before, Julia McKenzie really can sing quite gorgeously legitimate soprano, and she certainly holds her own, and it's a very good version of uh "Too Many Mornings," uh, but it can't compare with Barbara Cook. And once again, Dorothy Collins, who has no business singing legitimate soprano like she can, fucking nails it. I mean nails it. It goes back to that same Christine Ebersole thing uh in War Paint, you know, or uh, you know, it's just I don't know, it's like girls in my high school singing songs from Anything Goes, thinking because Patty LuPone is a quote unquote alto, you know, that they will be able to, and then they have to just flip into head voice the whole time because Patty makes it sound alto and easy, but actually, and you know, it's actually really high and crazy.

And I think you listen to Dorothy Collins and you don't even think, bitch, this is operatic. Where do you get off? You're just like, oh, it's so lovely and effortless, like she's just a great actress with a beautiful voice, you know. And you don't realize how freaking high and crazy it is. And that's such a tribute to how excellent she is. That said, when I'm listening to "Too Many Mornings," I want to get my like West Side Story tonight, my Showboat, my Rogers and Hammerstein, I want to fly. And that's what we get. That's what we get. I mean, they definitely take us on that ride. You know, Barbara Cook lifts us up on the wings of that weird dress she's wearing and takes us on the journey.

[1:58:31] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Well, next up is Buddy's solo, "The Right Girl," and we have another expert to talk about "The Right Girl." And I immediately thought of my friend Tony nominee, Tony Yazbeck, who performed honestly the best version I've ever seen or heard of "The Right Girl" when he was on Broadway in the Hal Prince tribute musical review, uh, The Prince of Broadway, uh, conceived and directed and choreographed by Susan Stroman. Uh, Stro. Stro. Ben, people in the business call up Stro. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, so much to learn.

[1:59:17] Tony Yazbeck: Hey, this is Tony Yazbeck. So my introduction to Follies as a kid was really listening to all the beautiful ballads. I don't think I quite heard or even can understand "The Right Girl" at that point when I was younger. Um, my first introduction to that song was with Danny Burstein's performance in that last revival. And I had always been a huge Danny Burstein fan. Anything he does, he just always stands out. Um, so I didn't even know at that point that that song was supposed to be this huge dance. Because as much as Danny performed it, and you know, he he wasn't quite a dancer, but he really embodied it and physicalized everything as an actor. So I didn't miss it. That's what was interesting about that.

Um, they did such a great job using that music and arranging it for what he did, that he just told the story so clearly for me that I was enthralled with his performance no matter what. Um, so then, you know, doing my research for it years later, when I was cast to do that part in Prince of Broadway on Broadway. Um, you know, I went back to the original and I went and found some old footage of Gene Nelson. And I realized that Michael Bennett arranged this music specifically for this number for Gene Nelson, and even doing even more research on it, realizing what he originally wanted was this rhythmic tap number for this character Buddy. And uh at that point, Gene basically said at his age, he just didn't feel like he could give it justice, or he didn't think tap was was the thing for him.

He didn't want to make it a tap number, he just wanted to dance in his character shoes. So ultimately, Gene sort of won that battle, and uh Michael Bennett arranged it for him, as brilliant of a dancer as he was, and uh, you know, and it was it was thrilling. I mean, as a number, you I just miss that kind of music, that kind of dance arrangement. I mean, you can hear sort of tones of music in the mirror in there. You can hear how he put his footprint on it uh for years to come. I mean, it just it's so Michael Bennett. Um, just watching him going up and down those stairs and turning and leaping and and using all the architecture on the stage. I mean, it was just thrilling, it doesn't happen like that anymore.

Um, so being able to see that and realize, oh, that's what it originally was. Okay, that's brilliant. So I I would say, in the canon of uh musicals that have happened with Follies, especially on Broadway, that's probably my favorite because it's the original. But honestly, my first introduction was so wildly enthusiastic with Danny Burstein that um they just they don't even compare. They're just two different, they're two different ways of telling the story so fantastically. It's just so heartbreaking. So being able to finally do it on Broadway myself, you know, and and at the point where I'm slightly too young to play this part, I knew that going in. And um, but I I did know the the emotional depth it needed.

Um, Stroman, Jason Robert Brown, and I got together and said, what are we gonna do with this? And researching it and realizing it was always meant to be a tap number, and it's never been done that way. Well, the three of us put our heads together and decided, let's do it. Let's just do what he originally wanted in the first place. So Jason Robert Brown wrote the most incredible arrangement of this song, I thought was it was just insane. Just the bass line itself told so much story. And um, Stroman, of course, known for her tap prowess, and we got together and in three straight sessions, um, three straight mornings, we got together and we put this number together. And we tweaked it over the years, but we put it together before the Japan production, and uh we were really proud of it.

And I I have to say it's probably one of the most it's probably the most proud I've ever been over a number I've done on Broadway. Just because being able to be that collaborative and create it and still give an ode to the original creators, um that's what it was all about for me. That's what a real revival is, is collaborating something new and paying homage to the original. Um, so yeah, uh it's a special place in my heart. I'm glad we recorded it and put it on an album. And um, and I hope one day, maybe one day soon, maybe not too soon, but who knows? Uh, I get to play the part for real and uh explore the depth of the character. But that number's just so incredible, and it always will belong in the canon of great, great musical song and dance numbers.

[2:04:40] Ben Rimalower: Ooh, I love that story.

[2:04:43] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[2:04:44] Ben Rimalower: Uh, Tony Yazbeck is so hot too. I just think it's so hot.

[2:04:46] Daniel Nolen: I wish I was the right girl for him.

[2:04:50] Ben Rimalower: Uh, same. Um, I actually it reminded me, um, thinking about uh people not, you know, Gene Nelson being so fabulous, but not per se like a trained dancer in that certain way. Uh, I watched this great thing on Stars in the House of um Seth Rudetsky um talking to uh the stars uh and director of the 1992 hit Revival of Guys and Dolls. So it was um Jerry Zaks and Nathan Lane, Peter Gallagher, uh Josie DeGuzman, Ruth Williamson, J.K.

[2:05:22] Ben Rimalower: Simmons, Walter Bobby, and former Broken Records guest Faith Prince.

[2:05:27] Daniel Nolen: Um, and Faith talked about how um when she was in Jerome Robbins Broadway, uh, when Jerome uh when Jerry would talk to her about staging, and she would say, "Well, you know, but I'm not a trained dancer, Jerry."

[2:05:43] Ben Rimalower: He would say, uh, "Do you think the people in Vaudeville were trained dancers?"

[2:05:50] Daniel Nolen: Um, and that seems so appropriate to this, you know.

[2:05:54] Ben Rimalower: Um, uh anyway, that's a great episode, everybody should watch.

[2:05:58] Ben Rimalower: So Tony was torn, other than his own version, which we all recommend between Danny Burstein on the 2011 revival and Gene Nelson on the original.

[2:06:08] Daniel Nolen: And Daniel and I both, although obviously major Gene Nelson fans, chose Danny Burstein.

[2:06:14] Ben Rimalower: Why did you feel that Danny?

[2:06:17] Daniel Nolen: Well, you know, I love my new favorite Broadway diva Gene Nelson so much. But I really thought that, and I've watched that footage of him dancing, and it's just really spectacular. And I love him on this song so much. He's, like I said, just so likable, and he has such that like everyman salesman quality. But the thing that Danny does so thrillingly that I think you kind of need for this song is he gives it like a really nice build. And he starts out kind of with some energy, but then you know, all the little Margie bits, he kind of, it's really kind of sweet and soft, but then at the end he kind of crescendos into the final stretch, and it becomes, you know, the thrilling buddy number.

[2:07:15] Ben Rimalower: It's Buddy's first song of the night, right?

[2:07:17] Daniel Nolen: Besides, it's his first solo, correct?

[2:07:20] Ben Rimalower: Right, correct. So yeah, it gives it that type of oomph that I think we're wanting to see his character experience. And I think Danny gives it that really nice kind of arc.

[2:07:34] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, I also feel I just find Danny so moving.

[2:07:39] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[2:07:41] Daniel Nolen: And I just, I really, I mean, it's how I felt about him in Fiddler on the Roof. It's especially honestly, my favorite Danny Burstein performance was Cabaret.

[2:07:50] Ben Rimalower: Um, they brought back the Alan Cumming revival, you know, recently.

[2:07:50] Daniel Nolen: Danny was Herr Schultz.

[2:07:59] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I forgot.

[2:08:00] Daniel Nolen: I really liked him in that too.

[2:08:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, he really, I just find him so incredibly moving and you know, just vulnerable in a very authentic, compelling way. And that really comes through for me in those parts of the song.

[2:08:18] Daniel Nolen: And when I was younger, I always felt those were the boring parts of the song, you know.

[2:08:23] Ben Rimalower: Um, I loved the like the ride, girl, yeah.

[2:08:27] Daniel Nolen: Um, but I, I, the slow, like slow, hey Margie, yeah, from with me. Whatever. Um, I, um, Danny just really love that.

[2:08:41] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, he has a real, I don't, I don't know if this is the right word, but it's like a vulnerability to him, like an open-heartedness, yes, that kind of, that really draws you in as an audience member.

[2:08:41] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:08:54] Ben Rimalower: Um, really in his voice.

[2:08:57] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, yeah.

[2:08:59] Ben Rimalower: Um, also I have to say this song is another one that I'm really, really growing to love more and more the more time I spend with it.

[2:09:08] Daniel Nolen: And I really, really, really love the orchestrations about halfway through where it's just instrumental for a bit, and it's just kind of like some strings, and then there's some trumpets, and it's just that very early 70s sound.

[2:09:23] Ben Rimalower: It almost sounds like the Mary Tyler Moore theme song.

[2:09:25] Daniel Nolen: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[2:09:27] Ben Rimalower: And that just, it's good for my heart. I mean, that just really, really strikes the sweet spot.

[2:09:27] Daniel Nolen: Totally.

[2:09:33] Ben Rimalower: So I mean, even just the orch, not, you know, singers aside, just that part of the song I could listen to over and over.

[2:09:39] Daniel Nolen: Same, same.

[2:09:40] Ben Rimalower: Uh, so moving on, the next song is the Heidi and Young Heidi duet, One More Kiss.

[2:09:47] Daniel Nolen: Famously the first song Sondheim wrote for Follies.

[2:09:51] Ben Rimalower: And for that we had Friend of the Pod, one of our favorites, that's a regular commenter on Next Year, Some Year, Zachary Jordan Couch.

[2:10:02] Daniel Nolen: And um, he is absolutely a Follies expert. And he felt that that song has become oversung all the time, and that they cast these operatic sopranos who blow it out of the ballpark when really it should be done more simply, as it was by musical theater stalwart Justine Johnson in the original production, and that's the recording he chose.

[2:10:31] Ben Rimalower: Uh, but both Daniel and I chose the National Theater production.

[2:10:31] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[2:10:37] Ben Rimalower: And I have to say, for One More Kiss, I love this song. You know, I'm not, I know for a lot of people it's their least favorite. This was another high point when I saw the show on screen. I was just so moved by this performance, and also it's, you know, this old opera singer woman who comes to the stage and she can't quite sing like she's used to, and I just was very moved by kind of the tableau of it all.

[2:11:06] Daniel Nolen: And also, like we were saying earlier, like the lyrics are just so haunting.

[2:11:06] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:11:14] Daniel Nolen: So, um, but listening to these all again, um, I thought they were all fine. A few I liked more than others just because a few I thought, like, ooh, she's flat, ooh, she's a little shaky there. I know that's maybe part of the character. But I settled on this London one because I felt like this actress kind of maybe brought the most nuance to the performance, and she really kind of reflected that in her vocal technique.

[2:11:30] Ben Rimalower: And you know, I don't know what it's called, but she, the one that I thought was too bombastic was, um, I don't remember if it was the London revival or the New York 2011 revival, but one of them I thought was exactly, this was the London revival.

[2:12:05] Daniel Nolen: Sorry, sorry, sorry, not the 87 London.

[2:12:08] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[2:12:09] Daniel Nolen: Um, because one of those was what Zach is saying, yes, which was just too bombastic and too polished. And I thought the 2018 London that we both chose kind of did a good job of sounding pretty, but at the same time like still getting that story across of the character.

[2:12:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:12:30] Daniel Nolen: Um, and she just played with a few more colors and shades than the others.

[2:12:36] Ben Rimalower: And Zach pointed out that he likes that version also and actually said that it's a great video to watch in the context of the show.

[2:12:45] Daniel Nolen: Um, so that's an easy one. Our next one, Could I Leave You, Phyllis's big solo, was a poll, and the voters resoundingly chose Jan Maxwell, and so did we.

[2:12:45] Ben Rimalower: Yep.

[2:13:03] Daniel Nolen: I mean, I listened to it right before we started again, and, you know, she sings the fuck out of it, and you know, you really gotta get that guess at the end of the song, and she nails that as well.

[2:13:15] Ben Rimalower: Um, you know, I think she's the closest, like I said, we have in this list to Donna Murphy, um, who we should give a shout out to an honorary.

[2:13:24] Daniel Nolen: Um, we'll give her an honorary Follies degree for this because obviously her version is a favorite.

[2:13:30] Ben Rimalower: But um, well, I saw Donna do it at City Center on course, um, and I liked her even better there than I liked her in the Sondheim Birthday class.

[2:13:40] Daniel Nolen: Oh, and uh, and I love Donna's version, but uh, Jan's is my favorite, including Donna's.

[2:13:48] Ben Rimalower: Um, I really feel like um, Jan is just so human and authentic and vulnerable and surprising. I really feel her going through the sequence of different thoughts in the song in real time while she sings it.

[2:14:11] Daniel Nolen: Um, you know, like I said, I performed the song in college. I know the song backwards and forwards.

[2:14:17] Ben Rimalower: Um, it's one of my karaoke go-tos.

[2:14:17] Daniel Nolen: Um, it is.

[2:14:20] Ben Rimalower: I think I've heard you sing it at Kara.

[2:14:22] Daniel Nolen: I'm certain you have.

[2:14:24] Ben Rimalower: Um, and you know, I love so many different versions, you know, not least of which being, of course, Alexis Smith's iconic original performance.

[2:14:32] Daniel Nolen: But um, but I find that Jan just really makes, when I saw her do it, and when I listened to her do it, I feel that Phyllis is the protagonist of this story.

[2:14:48] Ben Rimalower: Right, right, right.

[2:14:50] Daniel Nolen: Well, and you know, this is the last song we get before the Love Land sequence, and so I think, you know, every character, all the main four have kind of had their main character song now, and this is Phyllis's turn.

[2:14:50] Ben Rimalower: And so I think this is kind of a moment of catharsis for her character, and I think Jan really communicates that well as well.

[2:14:50] Daniel Nolen: Absolutely.

[2:15:24] Ben Rimalower: Um, and like you're saying, kind of the journey and the thoughts and the choices that are kind of all bubbling up within her at this key turning point are kind of all funneled through Jan Maxwell in a way that's so genius, and then at the end it kind of explodes forth in the final moments, and it's just so satisfying and so entertaining.

[2:15:47] Daniel Nolen: And look, nobody is more fabulous and edgy and brilliant than Diana Rigg.

[2:15:52] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah.

[2:15:53] Daniel Nolen: Um, but I don't feel the same emotional level of investment as I do with Jan.

[2:15:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[2:15:59] Daniel Nolen: Um, so that's an easy one. That's across the board.

[2:16:02] Ben Rimalower: And then going into that catharsis, we have Love Land, where we have another expert whom we've already talked about, the author of Everything Was Possible, because he was a production assistant on the original production of Follies, and for many years was the president of the Rogers and Hammerstein organization, Ted Chapin.

[2:16:27] Ted Chapin: Now I will confess right up front that as somebody who was around the original production and rehearsal out of town to the Broadway opening, um, and therefore saw Loveland in rehearsal before there actually was a formed Folly sequence to follow, I have great affection for the first shot that Sondheim gave to the song, which is in its purest form a very Ziegfeldian, a pretty girl is like a melody kind of song to introduce the audience to the optimistic youthful Folly sequence that was to follow.

[2:17:05] Ted Chapin: Of course, the Folly sequence early in rehearsal wasn't finished yet, or actually the shape wasn't even determined because there was a notion of maybe having some Will Rogers-like monologues in addition to songs. And it was only during rehearsals in New York that it was decided to be nothing but songs and for the principals revealing what they were going through as characters.

[2:17:31] Ted Chapin: So therefore, I will cast my lot for the original version of Love Land, which then, of course, brings up the question of which recording do I like best, because as we all know, the original cast album of Follies did not have time to record Loveland.

[2:17:46] Ted Chapin: So other than the endless recordings from the theater, there is no proper recording of the original production of Loveland. However, listening to all the other recordings, the one I favor actually is the 1985 concert because it gives the star ladies opportunities to have some fun with the original sort of doublets of the examples of the lovely kind of love that you can find in Love Land.

[2:18:15] Ted Chapin: I will say that the London production, Loveland, I think, is pretty awful actually, but it does show how game Sondheim is to listen to collaborators and to make an attempt at changing things that directors and producers want.

[2:18:30] Ted Chapin: So it's a little fussy to my taste. I don't think it needs to be that complicated. I really will go right back to what was done originally.

[2:18:38] Ted Chapin: And I do find it interesting that in the very successful National Theatre production in 2018, they combined the original from the opening from the original, and then with the quatrains and spelling the Love Land from the London production in the 80s.

[2:18:56] Ted Chapin: Um, I think there's actually a tag to the end of it, the look the land part of Love Land. But anyway, that said, I certainly favor the original version of Love Land, and in the recordings, I will favor the 1985 concert version of Love Land, even though it's not part of a production and therefore can do things like have Elaine Stritch get a big laugh out of birds swooning and dying.

[2:19:21] Ben Rimalower: I think it's a pretty good spirited recording of it, and that's the one in which I will cast my lot.

[2:19:27] Daniel Nolen: Thanks.

[2:19:29] Ben Rimalower: So exciting that we have him here on this episode after I just finished devouring his wonderful book.

[2:19:36] Daniel Nolen: Well, uh, no surprise you guys agreed on the 85 recording.

[2:19:41] Ben Rimalower: Um I had actually chosen the one from the 2011 revival just because um I kind of the same reason I like the one more kiss, where I I just like I like the better singing of the ensemble for this song, but that but uh but I I think you guys are right. Um so uh overall it is this. So it's the 85 concert for Loveland. Um speaking of love, going right into the next love centric song.

[2:20:09] Daniel Nolen: Yes, the counterpoint duets for the two, the young buddy and uh Sally and the young Phyllis and Ben, You're Gonna Love Tomorrow, Love will see us through.

[2:20:20] Ben Rimalower: Uh, we had friend of the pod, Adolfo Blair, dancer choreographer extraordinaire. Uh, and he chose the 87 uh West End production. He uh thought that they were the best um uh performers, I think, in the young roles.

[2:20:40] Daniel Nolen: I will say um I do love the Phyllis from the 87, the young Phyllis from the 87 London production. She's quite a Beltress.

[2:20:49] Ben Rimalower: Yes, I love her too. Um, as was Virginia Sandifer in the original, which is Daniel's choice. Um uh for this song, I chose the 85 concert because uh even though Daisy Prince does not belt out um who are we gonna cool? Oh, wait, that's the other song. Um, even though she doesn't have that kind of a belt like uh Virginia Sandifer and the London woman do, she um I just find her and Liz Calloway, not to mention Howard McIlhan and Jim Walton, and you know, it's a little unfair of a competition because I mean obviously I love Harvey Evans and Kurt Peterson uh too, but these are four performers who I've seen do a lot of things, and so therefore, when I hear their voices, which are familiar to me, it gives me more interest, you know.

[2:21:41] Daniel Nolen: Didn't I have written down that Adolfo chose 71?

[2:21:45] Ben Rimalower: Oh, maybe I wrote it wrong. Um, well, that would settle this. Um uh just because I I really uh I enjoyed his thoughts on his reasoning, which was that it feels more authentic and pastiche. You know, it's kind of that as in my words, I I said I think it's you know, it's kind of has the proper cheese level, you know.

[2:22:08] Daniel Nolen: Well, that's for sure. I mean, definitely like those photos of them like really make it sound that that way.

[2:22:14] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I I do think some are too belted and it seems a little out of style. But I will say this song is a bop. I really enjoy it. Listen, I love the version from the Sondheim Birthday concert with Matt Kavanaugh and Laura Osnis and Jen Kalella and uh Bobby Stegert.

[2:22:31] Daniel Nolen: Oh, that sounds great.

[2:22:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So all right, well, so then that's two to one. So we have the original cast recording for this quartet. Um then Buddy's Blues, we have another expert. It is my dear friend, the director that I assisted on uh the Sweeney Todd we were discussing, a Tony nominated book writer, uh, the star of a class act, and the original star of Sondheim's Merrill Reroll Along, which is the reason I thought of him for this, because his big song in that show, Franklin Shepherd Inc., is something of a cousin to Buddy's Blues. So here to tell us about it is Lonny Price.

[2:23:18] Lonny Price: Hi, uh, this is Lonnie Price, and uh Ben had asked me about my thoughts on performances of Buddy's Blues. And um the truth is is I tend to fall in love with the performance of a song the first time I hear the song. So um being that I was actually at the Winter Garden sometime in 1971, it was the first actual show I got to see on my own as a as a young man, well, as a 10-year-old. And I remember very well uh Gene Nelson's performance. And as I say, because it was the first time I was exposed to the material, um, I like it best. Um having said that, you know, I saw Danny Burstein do the show and uh do the role, and he was extraordinary in it and wonderful in the song. Um so for me, I guess it would be if we're ranking, which is uh kind of not uh something I think very highly of, but uh from my personal point of view, I would say that uh Gene Nelson was extraordinary in it, and as was Danny.

So I'd say it was the first and the last person I saw, which is not in any way to denigrate the gentlemen who have done wonderful job with that song, and uh it's an amazing piece of material. And um yeah, it's it's hilarious and heartbreaking, and um all the things that uh Steve does better than anybody, I think. So um, Gene Nelson, Danny Burstein, great song. Um, I'm glad you're all um loving follies as I do. Okay, thanks so much. Bye-bye.

[2:25:04] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I just Lonnie is so totes, Lonnie. Gotta love, I love Lonnie.

[2:25:53] Ben Rimalower: And um Danny would go on often so that Lonnie, as director and bookwriter, could watch the show.

[2:25:53] Daniel Nolen: Um I I uh I guess, yeah, he doesn't think very highly of ranking, but you know, if he doesn't think highly of ranking, he hasn't made it this far in the episode.

[2:25:53] Ben Rimalower: So yes.

[2:25:53] Daniel Nolen: Well, uh, interesting to hear. And um, I must be said that my first encounter with the great Danny Burstine, actually that's a lie. My first encounter with the great Danny Burstine was on the um York Theater revival of Merrill Rollalong, where he played the Jason Alexander role.

[2:25:53] Ben Rimalower: Um, and that was recorded, and he's wonderful. Um, but uh, but then I I when we did a class act on Broadway, Danny was Lonnie's standby.

[2:26:00] Daniel Nolen: Oh, cool.

[2:26:05] Daniel Nolen: So uh, fun fact. Anyway, uh, so but I'm not surprised. I know that Lonnie has been a fan of Danny since at least then, if not before. Not surprised that he would choose that as well as the um original performance by Gene Nelson, which is what you and I chose, so that wins.

[2:26:22] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[2:26:23] Ben Rimalower: Well, and I think uh this obviously, as I've said numerous times today, I love Gene so much, but I think this is what really he is at his peak powers on this song more than even though I love him all over.

[2:26:41] Daniel Nolen: He's this is he's at his peak more here than he is in The Right Girl, vocally at least.

[2:26:46] Ben Rimalower: And I just love uh he comes right on in, and uh hello folks, we're into the follies. And when he says follies, there's like a little growl in his voice that I just can't get over. It's just so unique and so wonderful.

[2:27:00] Daniel Nolen: So yeah, Gene Nelson boots the house down, Mama.

[2:27:03] Ben Rimalower: Do you know what version of this song I don't like?

[2:27:06] Daniel Nolen: Who Mandy Patinkins?

[2:27:09] Ben Rimalower: Oh, certainly not.

[2:27:11] Daniel Nolen: Certainly not.

[2:27:12] Ben Rimalower: No, too fast, doesn't adhere to rhythm, speak sings. It's uh it's uh I have a lot of notes on uh that side of things as well.

[2:27:22] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean it's funny because I really am such a Mandy fan, but not here, not like this.

[2:27:22] Ben Rimalower: Not like this, not not today.

[2:27:29] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, keep a moving voice.

[2:27:31] Ben Rimalower: Give moving voice. Well, uh next up is uh maybe the number one song in Follies, if you have to choose. I mean, I would say definitely. Um the of course, Sally's big ballad, Losing My Mind.

[2:27:47] Daniel Nolen: And this was a poll, and the voters chose Dorothy Collins.

[2:27:54] Ben Rimalower: And this was a real blowout for Dorothy Collins.

[2:27:58] Daniel Nolen: Yes, it was.

[2:27:59] Ben Rimalower: It was. Well, this this and uh story of Lucy and Jesse were when I had the idea of sharing the poll in the Folly's Facebook. We we outsourced the poll for these ones.

[2:28:09] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[2:28:09] Ben Rimalower: Well, they came in, and I'm glad they did, because uh they really put her over the top by quite a large margin, and she was my choice as well, even though I have a lot of thoughts on the others.

[2:28:21] Daniel Nolen: Um, you chose Julia McKenzie.

[2:28:25] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, I mean, I gotta stick to my guns on this one, even though I love Miss and Dorothy, and she's a close second. Um, Julia, I just love it because this is the time of the show where I'm ready for sexy Sally.

[2:28:39] Daniel Nolen: And Julia McKinsey just brings it to you, not only, I'm sure, in the way she looked, but in that voice, I mean just the the sun.

[2:28:47] Ben Rimalower: Trust me, trust me. The voice is much sexier than how she looks.

[2:28:52] Daniel Nolen: But the way she's like, the sun comes up.

[2:28:56] Ben Rimalower: It's just so oh, it's so sexy and sultry and vampy and yummy. Um, so before before we get deeper into Julia, now is it true? I'm looking back through your voting history, that if it was just up to you, you would have given nothing to Dorothy Collins.

[2:29:18] Daniel Nolen: Um, I'm not proud of it, but I have to say, yeah. I mean, she was, I was very on the fence on Don't Look at Me for a while. But um, yeah, I mean, I hate to say it, but I Dorothy Collins, I did not pick her for any of these.

[2:29:31] Ben Rimalower: Wow.

[2:29:31] Daniel Nolen: Even though I she was she's probably my favorite Sally, if I had to choose. Um, you know, losing my mind, it's like uh first of all, I'm prejudiced against Julia in a way because I'd prefer her other recording of it, you know.

[2:29:47] Ben Rimalower: Oh, right.

[2:29:48] Daniel Nolen: So it's like it's a little bit like Patty being alive, where like no matter how great it is, it's never gonna be my favorite being alive compared to the one she did before. Um and uh, but I feel like uh there are certain choices, like I at one point I was like, maybe I just have to give it to Barbara Cook. I mean, she's you know, my favorite singer, right? You know, like at least I was alive while I was alive.

[2:30:15] Ben Rimalower: But what I couldn't forgive Barbara Cook for is in the second refrain when it goes, sometimes I stand in the middle of the floor, not going left, not going right. I dim the light, is what it's supposed to be.

[2:30:35] Daniel Nolen: It's what Dorothy does.

[2:30:36] Ben Rimalower: And Barbara Cook goes, Sometimes I stand in the middle of the floor, not going left, not going right. I dim, and I'm like, bitch, where do you be?

[2:30:46] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well, maybe she forgot.

[2:30:48] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it was a very short rehearsal period.

[2:30:50] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, but I'm not good at that.

[2:30:53] Ben Rimalower: That's unforgivable. Um, I also And Julia, who at one point I was like, maybe Dorothy Collins just isn't belty enough for me. Maybe I do need to choose Julia.

[2:31:01] Daniel Nolen: I mean, if my favorite version of Losing My Mind is Julia McKenzie on Side by Side by Sondheim, and if her version on Side by Side by Sondheim is not all that different from her version here, maybe I should choose her here.

[2:31:17] Ben Rimalower: But there was another thing like that, and now I'm forgetting what beat it was, but it's like uh there was another thing where Dorothy gives you that little extra, extra something, something, and Julia just kind of is just by the book.

[2:31:30] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, Dorothy is magnificent in this um song.

[2:31:35] Ben Rimalower: And honestly, I like Bernadette's too.

[2:31:38] Daniel Nolen: And I the thing that Bernadette does is that she gives it that little option up at the end.

[2:31:42] Ben Rimalower: Which I hate.

[2:31:43] Daniel Nolen: Oh, I love it.

[2:31:44] Ben Rimalower: I love it.

[2:31:45] Daniel Nolen: Um, to me, the whole point of the song.

[2:31:49] Ben Rimalower: No, it's terrible.

[2:31:50] Daniel Nolen: It's got I even when I only knew Julia McKenzie's version on Side by Side by Sondheim, I still hated that fucking high note at the end.

[2:31:59] Ben Rimalower: I will say that Bernadette does something spectacular. I've never heard anyone else do anywhere, including her, even, is on that last note, she starts off in head voice, then goes into belt and then goes back to head voice.

[2:32:14] Daniel Nolen: It's sort of insane.

[2:32:16] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's just mind-blowing. But and it, if you're gonna go up, you should go up the way Bernadette does, and not just like a land.

[2:32:23] Daniel Nolen: Maybe that's part of what I disqualified Julia for, was that she goes up on just a generic head voice though.

[2:32:29] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's pretty, but it's so it ruins the song. Where because what I love is Dorothy goes, uh, or am I losing my and it's like so like uh gravitas, you know?

[2:32:44] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:32:44] Ben Rimalower: And Bernadette's final note has its own kind of gravitas. Um what I cannot forgive Bernadette for is how she floats.

[2:32:55] Daniel Nolen: Um, I know you're gonna say, yep.

[2:32:59] Ben Rimalower: Or were you just being kind?

[2:33:01] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, oh god, yeah.

[2:33:03] Ben Rimalower: It's so I it's so maddening. I'm like, babe, this is you can do this. This is your big moment. And then she fucking throws it away. And even before she gets there, you know, a lot of them, maybe all of them take a pause there a little bit, which I actually would prefer they don't.

[2:33:17] Ben Rimalower: Um, but Bernadette's pause is longer. It's like, and it's and she's kind of crying through the whole thing. She does get a little belting steam going. I mean, if I I don't know how to say this anymore clearly, I need them to fucking belt this song. Listen, the first refrain, they can do whatever the heck they want. It's all theirs. Honestly, they could do the first refrain in pig Latin. They could speak it as a monologue. I don't care. The first refrain is free reign. But then once they come back in, I need them to be belting. And when I say belting, it doesn't have to be belting belting. It can be Barbara Cook. But they have to be in their own money notes.

[2:34:00] Daniel Nolen: Yeah, I mean, it's yeah, in their own money notes. It's there in the music, it's like dun dun dun dun dun. I mean, it gives you that like instruction to really let loose. And and it's so anticlimactic when you do what Bernadette does, which is just like not do that. So unfortunately, the person who also understands what I want from the song is a Melda.

[2:34:20] Ben Rimalower: Oh, yeah. Um, she just ultimately is never gonna be, you know, it's this is not a song that like someone who like can sing on pitch and be loud and is a great actor is gonna make it happen for me, you know.

[2:34:34] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:34:35] Ben Rimalower: I need somebody who has like real vocal richness and personality, you know.

[2:34:39] Daniel Nolen: Which is Melda doesn't have the vocal richness. However, I love watching her do this song because she's so fucking baddie. She's so crazy. I mean, this is what inspired almost all of our Melda like jokes because she's like literally has like booze and pills and coke and shit. It's like so accessible. I mean, am I joking or does she actually have like heroin paraphernalia?

[2:35:05] Ben Rimalower: I don't know about heroin, but I did I did uh freeze frame it when I was watching it recently, and there is like a pile of white powder.

[2:35:12] Daniel Nolen: So like you like a pile, really?

[2:35:17] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, a pile.

[2:35:18] Daniel Nolen: So I mean, if you by the way, everyone should check out because like we said, that uh National Theater stayed in their repertory and came back and stuff. Uh a subsequent incarnation of it had um Joanna Riding as um Sally. And she um is someone who I I forget, I think she played Lori in Carousel on the West End, and maybe also Eliza and My Fair Lady. She's definitely a soprano who can belt. And so um her losing my mind is on YouTube, and it's basically a Melda's version, but with a better voice. It's definitely worth worth checking out.

[2:35:57] Ben Rimalower: Cool, cool. So anyway, all that to say I I still feel like I need to do a better job convincing you of—

[2:35:59] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no. I I am so happy to give this one to Dorothy.

[2:36:10] Ben Rimalower: She needs to be—

[2:36:10] Daniel Nolen: No, no, no. She won. I've been purposely being conceding all along, saving up my fights in case I needed it here.

[2:36:19] Ben Rimalower: And the voters are on my side.

[2:36:21] Daniel Nolen: I'm not talking, I'm not talking about the playlist. I'm talking about I really want you to like it better.

[2:36:28] Ben Rimalower: No, listen, I like it. I mean, my favorite, you know, recording is still Julia McKenzie, but Dorothy's I love. I mean, like, like I said, she's a very, very close second, and I'm so happy that she's gonna be on this list because of this song. Because she needs to be. I mean, it's really a shame that, you know, uh, it's even just this one song. It's only this one song, but um well, I mean, I would have given her uh don't look at me, but you know, that's not what people uh uh But no, she deserves this song. This needs to be Dorothy. I mean, I had to be honest with my Julia preference, but I'm so so thrilled that this one's Dorothy.

[2:37:07] Daniel Nolen: And um uh God, now I'm regretting that I switched my vote from Dorothy to Bernadette on Don't Look at Me. Um it's it's been entered in it's been entered in the final column. Uh speaking of final, uh the next song is uh Phyllis's uh Folly's number, the story of Lucy and Jesse. We had a poll, and uh with the help of the Facebook Follies group, um, they voters chose Alexis Smith.

[2:37:38] Ben Rimalower: And both you and I chose her as well.

[2:37:40] Daniel Nolen: Yes, and I I think I had originally voted on the poll for Jan just because she is probably my favorite Phyllis. However, I switched my vote after one, reading Ted Chapin's fabulous book and watching videos of Alexis and listening to it all more. Because like I said, with even though you know Gene Nelson's my favorite buddy, um, I think what he does well, he does better on Buddy's Blues than he does on The Right Girl. Same with um uh Jan Maxwell. I think what she does super well, it's it's more put on display and showcased in Could I Leave You? And I think Alexis watching the videos. I mean, this song is Lucy and Jesse is just so showbusy and vaudeville of fabulousness that Alexis really, and and in those videos, Alexis really delivers on that front as well with her beautiful legs and dancing and all the um the costume, the beautiful red costume, and um, and she sings it great. So I I ultimately had to switch to Alexis for this one.

[2:38:44] Ben Rimalower: I mean, I I feel like um Alexis almost has that Liza quality of being like uh there's a lot of people on stage and she can move in sync with them, but still have this just like unbreakable focus.

[2:39:00] Daniel Nolen: It doesn't hurt that the uh dancers have their back together.

[2:39:03] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. I mean, Michael Michael Bennett really did a good a good number, if you will, on this one. As as as Richard J. Alexander would say, uh, he was in the star business. Um but uh I will say, I mean, I like Jan in this fine, but I don't like her any more or less on this song than Lee Remick or Jamie D, uh, or how I imagine D. Hody from the Paper Mill production. And um actually the number that I the performer that I've most loved in this song was Donna Murphy at Encores.

[2:39:35] Daniel Nolen: Oh, yeah.

[2:39:36] Ben Rimalower: Um I mean, uh Donna Murphy really, to me, in her performance of this song at Encores might be one of my favorite musical number performances I've ever seen. And it's on YouTube. People should check it out. Um, and and when I watched when I did get to watching the videos on on YouTube, when you when you see Jan do this and when you see Alexis do this, it's just like you really can't compare. I mean, at all because that production in 2011, you know, it was a it was scaled down, it was a small stage, it wasn't it, there was no there were no levels to it at all. It was, you know, her and like four guys kind of you know running around the stage. But when you see Alexis do it, it is like a fucking number. And it is a stage within an inch of its life, like the old school follies were. Um, and uh for my third choice, Janie D.

[2:40:31] Daniel Nolen: I love Janie D on this one too.

[2:40:33] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, no, she's great, she's absolutely great. So for this one, Alexis.

[2:40:37] Daniel Nolen: Yes.

[2:40:42] Ben Rimalower: Good.

[2:40:42] Daniel Nolen: I'm glad.

[2:40:43] Ben Rimalower: I'm also glad we is this our first Alexis on the list.

[2:40:47] Daniel Nolen: Yes, it is.

[2:40:49] Ben Rimalower: Well, except for maybe group numbers. Um so for our final uh song, we have uh an expert, which is past guests of the pod, Tony Award winning lyricist, Scott and uh acclaimed director, Scott Wittman, to talk to us about Ben's Folly's number, Live, Laugh, Love. I've seen many uh live, Laugh, Love or Ben's Folly, as it's known over the years. I've seen George Hearn, Robert Alda, Daniel Massey, Victor Garber, Ron Rains, Ed Ivanko, Larry Guattard, Greg Harrison, and of course John McMartin. I saw the original Broadway cast on numerous occasions, including the historic closing night on Broadway. John McMartin's performance and the Prince Bennett staging is still one of the most frightening moments I've ever witnessed on any stage.

His acting of Ben's breakdown was bone chilling. That coupled with the ensemble's steely-eyed, nothing wrong here, was pure wrecked. The orchestra descended into chaos and everyone appeared and just as quickly vanished, leaving the four principals alone on stage, sunlight streaming in from the back wall, all of them awakening from a nightmare. And then there was John, John McMartin, just filled with such despair.

[2:42:16] Daniel Nolen: Oh, well, I do love Scott Wittman, and nobody can describe uh the magic of theater uh as eloquently, dazzlingly, and tantalizingly as um he can.

[2:42:29] Ben Rimalower: True dad. And I so I so wish that I had seen that moment, and he makes that staging just makes my mouth water. Um, and of course, we love John McMartin for all the reasons we said. However, I'm glad to say that we were both united in uh with each other and not with Scott in choosing George Hearn for this song.

[2:42:49] Daniel Nolen: Well, like we've talked about with both of these men, and like Adam said with uh Geor uh John McMartin in The Road You Didn't Take, I think he he he he brings that quality really well to that song. However, for Live Laugh Love, it's the final kind of big horrific moment of the breakdown. And I think George Hearn's kind of big bombastic voice really fits well with that, and it lends it an even more kind of uh nightmarish um bold quality.

[2:43:25] Ben Rimalower: I agree. I mean, you know, for the first part of the song before he breaks down, we've got to be on that sort of ship of happiness, you know, when the winds are blowing.

[2:43:37] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:43:39] Ben Rimalower: Like, and uh with George singing, I just it reminds me of um, I I think it's the movie uh SOB, the Blake Edwards movie starring Julie Andrews that opens with her singing this like weird acid trip version of Polly Wally Doodle all day. And this almost feels like that. It's like so like fucking like uh like giddy, you know.

[2:44:05] Daniel Nolen: Right.

[2:44:05] Ben Rimalower: Well, and like Scott says, you know, if uh when he does break down, like everyone sticks to that mentality and you know, the smiles on their face, and yeah.

[2:44:14] Daniel Nolen: Um so I think you know, yeah, George is just really really great about him. Love him.

[2:44:21] Ben Rimalower: Um, and you know, and he is just so showbiz. Um I do love um uh Daniel Massey in the London version, but he doesn't sing this song. He sings um make the most of your music. Which is a sort of like somewhere between a first rate and a second rate Sontime song. Um it's a little more of like a song than this is, and I guess it's less depressing. Um but uh but it it can't compare with what this is, either George or John McMartin. And then uh, you know, I'm not a big fan of Ron Rains, The Stench of Judy K, and The Stench of Judy K.

[2:45:07] Daniel Nolen: A news thing my novel.

[2:45:09] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. Um then uh in London at the National Theater, uh, it's a good performance by Philip Quest.

[2:45:17] Daniel Nolen: Yeah.

[2:45:17] Ben Rimalower: But um, but I I really just George Hearn just pushes my buttons here.

[2:45:22] Daniel Nolen: He sure does, yeah.

[2:45:24] Ben Rimalower: I mean, it's and it's also it's also having someone like George Hearn, who's like this baritone, like big voiced, sturdy man, you know, like you're saying, this operatic, intimidating force. It's it's even more uh scary, it's even scarier and and and more uh harrowing and heartbreaking to see that breakdown. It's like when your dad cries, yeah, exactly.

[2:45:52] Daniel Nolen: Exactly.

[2:45:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. So anyway.

[2:45:55] Daniel Nolen: Well, on that note, on that note, I guess it's time for uh us to go mourn the loss of our Folly segment.

[2:46:04] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, say goodnight, Gracie.

[2:46:06] Daniel Nolen: Good night.

[2:46:06] Ben Rimalower: Oh, wait, are we really signing off right now?

[2:46:08] Daniel Nolen: What else?

[2:46:09] Ben Rimalower: Do you have anything else to say?

[2:46:11] Daniel Nolen: No, though. I feel like there was something else I wanted to say, but now it's now it's just weird. So.

[2:46:19] Ben Rimalower: Alright, uh, good night, and I'm so glad I came.

[2:46:27] Daniel Nolen: What we need is a drink.

[2:46:31] Ben Rimalower: Thanks for listening to Ben Rimmelauer's Broken Records on Broadway World. For more episodes, visit Broadway World, iTunes, Stitcher, or wherever podcasts do be. This episode was edited by me, Daniel Nolen. Thanks to Emmy winning composer and lyricist Lance Horn for the Broken Records theme song. Follow us both, Ben Rimelauer and Daniel Nolen on all y'all's socials. That's Ben Rimmelauer. B-E-N-R-I-M-A-L-O-W-E-R. And that's Nolan with an E, not Nolan with an A.

[2:46:58] Daniel Nolen: Nolan with an A, isn't it?