This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:18] John Schwab: Hi, John Schwab here from Curtain Call, and welcome to episode 162 of the Curtain Call Podcast.

[0:24] John Schwab: I hope everyone is staying safe out there as theaters and live events open up and productions begin to pick up pace.

[0:30] John Schwab: Now we've got an incredibly inspiring guest for this episode, a theater professional helping theater professionals, fans, families, and friends, and many, many more people.

[0:39] John Schwab: And speaking of professionals, for those of you who are theater entertainment and live events professionals, head on over to CurtainCallOnline.com and check out our new platform.

[0:46] John Schwab: Sign up, build out your profile, start getting found for it.

[0:50] John Schwab: It is simply that easy.

[0:52] John Schwab: But uh for this week's guest.

[0:55] John Schwab: Now Matt and I know exactly what it is like to produce a coffee table book.

[0:58] John Schwab: We've done it, we've got the scars.

[1:00] John Schwab: It's always a great idea until you start to begin to actually realize that you, you know, need to get out there and go make the thing.

[1:08] John Schwab: And make the thing is exactly what this week's guest most certainly did, and in style.

[1:15] John Schwab: Andrew Norland is a New York-based artist and performer, most recently on stage in the national touring company of Broadway's Kinky Boots.

[1:22] John Schwab: During lockdown, uh Andrew was at a loss as to what his performing career was gonna look like when it you know returned when things opened up, if indeed they ever were going to open up, and when he'd ever get back to see the people that he loved and worked with, and he felt he needed to do something to get both creative, uh well and express himself, and also serve as a catharsis to acknowledge and work through the feelings that he and his fellow professionals were experiencing.

[1:46] John Schwab: His book, When the Lights Are Bright Again, started out as a little seed of an idea and grew into a book with stunning photography from Broadway photographer Matthew Murphy, and over 200 contributions from theater veterans, theater goers, theater dreamers, ushers, designers, creatives, you name it.

[2:02] John Schwab: They all sent letters in, and they are all in there.

[2:05] John Schwab: It is a love letter itself to the arts and to theater, but more importantly to humanity and how we all need each other in a time of darkness.

[2:13] John Schwab: We're thankful that Andrew was able to find time to sit down with Matt Humphrey and I to take us through his incredible journey.

[2:19] John Schwab: Have a listen.

[2:27] Andrew Norland: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm so excited.

[2:29] Andrew Norland: It's really exciting what you're doing.

[2:31] Andrew Norland: Um Matt and I are fully aware of what it takes to put a theater book together, having done it ourselves, and it just looks like a huge undertaking.

[2:44] Andrew Norland: The amount of people that you reached out to, the amount of work and you say it set it out, it started out as uh almost like a passion project that helped you find a bit of identity during the pandemic, and then oh, it just grew in scope and it it just became a a had a life unto itself.

[3:00] Andrew Norland: Just wondering, Andrew, just to start things off here, take us back to the the Genesis, the progenitor of When the Lights Are Bright Again, which is a fantastic, a fantastic project, and I can't wait to get my hands on it.

[3:17] Andrew Norland: Yes, amazing.

[3:19] Andrew Norland: Um, yeah, it it started.

[3:21] Andrew Norland: I was I was living back home with my parents, um, as so many were during COVID for the first time in a decade, 24 7 together.

[3:28] Andrew Norland: So just learning each other as adults again and everything that everybody knows that entails.

[3:34] Andrew Norland: Yeah.

[3:34] Andrew Norland: And it was about six months in, and I just really hit a wall.

[3:39] Andrew Norland: I hit a wall creatively.

[3:40] Andrew Norland: Uh, I realized that I wasn't uh taking dance classes online anymore, because it just was um I didn't want to do it anymore.

[3:49] Andrew Norland: I did I didn't want to keep numbing myself.

[3:51] Andrew Norland: Uh the clincher was about three weeks before this sort of breakdown I had at dinner with my parents.

[3:56] Andrew Norland: My mom said, Andrew, why have you stopped singing around the house?

[4:00] Andrew Norland: And that just destroyed me.

[4:02] Andrew Norland: Like hearing my mother, who is my world, and hearing her say, Why have you stopped singing around the house?

[4:08] Andrew Norland: Which since I've lived away from home for 10 years, like she loves when I come home because she loves that I'm singing in the shower and just singing as how I express myself and my whole life.

[4:18] Andrew Norland: And so that was like the clincher.

[4:20] Andrew Norland: And so that was just kind of in the back of my mind.

[4:22] Andrew Norland: And it was this one night at dinner, I just sort of everything sort of came to a head.

[4:27] Andrew Norland: It was that perfect store moment where I was like, Am I gonna be paying off this student debt till the day I die?

[4:32] Andrew Norland: I hate that I don't have a huge savings account.

[4:34] Andrew Norland: I hate that I'm experiencing this this this COVID and this pandemic alone, and so many of my friends and peers have significant others, and uh am I ever gonna go back to to New York to this to my chosen family, to my tribe back in New York and and be around them again.

[4:50] Andrew Norland: And there was just no end in sight.

[4:52] Andrew Norland: That was very much the middle of all of that of being home in in isolation with my family, and sure.

[4:57] Andrew Norland: And I wouldn't change it for the world.

[4:58] Andrew Norland: I I I am so happy that I was able to have that time and and to be spend time with my niece and nephew that I never would have had.

[5:05] Andrew Norland: But so yeah, this I I had a sort of a breakdown at dinner, and the next day I was uh at the gym trying to sweat it out and get over my get over myself and my ego.

[5:16] Andrew Norland: And I was uh chatting with one of my best friends, McKenna, who I grew up with in children's theater when I was little, and she said to me, She said, She kind of checked me at the door.

[5:26] Andrew Norland: She's like, Andrew, have you have you written about it?

[5:28] Andrew Norland: You write about everything else.

[5:30] Andrew Norland: And I was like, what do you mean?

[5:32] Andrew Norland: I knew exactly what she meant, but I didn't want to go there.

[5:35] Andrew Norland: And she was like, you know, like, what if you wrote a letter to yourself or a letter to the business?

[5:41] Andrew Norland: Like when we write an email that we never send, but just saying our words out loud makes us feel better.

[5:47] Andrew Norland: She was like, What if you wrote a letter to the business about what you miss as a way to grieve?

[5:51] Andrew Norland: And my wheels just started spinning.

[5:53] Andrew Norland: Like I did not sleep for three days.

[5:55] Andrew Norland: I had all these ideas of titles in my head.

[5:57] Andrew Norland: Uh I was I was every dinner I was having, we were going over to my sister and uh her uh husband, my brother-in-law, and their kids' house down the street from my parents, and and I was just like, I was like, I have this idea, what do you guys think?

[6:09] Andrew Norland: Like I would not shut up about this for like three days straight, just like bouncing ideas off of all of them.

[6:14] Andrew Norland: Cut to three days later, I was like, I think when the lights are bright again, like every time I said it, I got these these like effervescent chills and this feeling of like this is right, like this overwhelming feeling inside me, like I don't know what this is going to become, but if I do this right and just keep putting one foot in front of the other, this could become something really special.

[6:32] Andrew Norland: So that's kind of how it was born.

[6:34] Andrew Norland: It's amazing.

[6:35] Andrew Norland: It's a it's a wonderful story, and I like John, cannot wait to get my hands on a copy.

[6:40] Andrew Norland: But I love the premise of it, you know, reaching out to different people to write their love letter to the industry.

[6:47] Andrew Norland: Right.

[6:47] Andrew Norland: Because it was such a unique time.

[6:50] Andrew Norland: There will never be, hopefully, fingers crossed, but I really do feel like it would never be like that again.

[6:57] Andrew Norland: Yeah.

[6:57] Andrew Norland: To have capsulated that must have been a really special experience for you.

[7:02] Andrew Norland: It was, it was.

[7:03] Andrew Norland: The it sort of began um with people submitting through.

[7:07] Andrew Norland: We created I created a Google form um through the website, and people uh, if they were interested, could submit their letter through the Google form.

[7:15] Andrew Norland: And at that time, I kept saying when I was home that I wanted it to be a coffee table book, and my sister kept also um just like McKenna checking me at the door, being like, you know, like if you want it to be a coffee table book, you you gotta have photos, dude.

[7:29] Andrew Norland: Like you it's it's it's a book if it's just letters.

[7:32] Andrew Norland: Yeah.

[7:32] Andrew Norland: And I was like, you're right.

[7:33] Andrew Norland: So there was a lot of people that had submitted letters before I reached out to Matthew Murphy, and that connection came because uh Matt was the resident photographer and and took our photos for the closing company of the Kinky Boots National Tour that I was on.

[7:46] Andrew Norland: And so that's how me and him connected.

[7:48] Andrew Norland: And he was just like in my mind, and it was just the perfect timing.

[7:52] Andrew Norland: Like he uh we connected because I had just seen that's what it was.

[7:52] Andrew Norland: I had just seen him do the series at the Al Hirschfeld with like five or six members of the Moulin Rouge cast, where they he took them, they returned back into the theater and took these gorgeous Danny Burstein, Robin Herder, these gorgeous photos of them like in the middle of COVID, just some with masks on, some without, and it was just them like in isolation with their whole theater that had been dark and dusty.

[8:18] Andrew Norland: And I was like, oh my god, like that's the kind of photography I want.

[8:22] Andrew Norland: And so then I reached out to him and it was just like the perfect timing.

[8:24] Andrew Norland: Whenever he's asked this question, uh, he always says, Andrew's email came across my kitchen counter at the perfect morning because I don't know what crazy uh amount of coffee I had that morning, but he said, I don't want to because I asked him, I was like, Do you want to like submit some pictures you've already taken of people and we can ask them to submit letters?

[8:41] Andrew Norland: And he was like, Let's do a whole new brand new photo series from scratch.

[8:45] Andrew Norland: And now he looks back and he's like, Oh my god, we were crazy.

[8:50] Andrew Norland: Matt, remember those remember those days we just were so naive in what work it would involve uh to to put a coffee table book together.

[9:02] Andrew Norland: That's why we're so it's a huge undertaking.

[9:06] John Schwab: I mean, at that point, did you know the scale that it was gonna get to?

[9:11] John Schwab: Did you have a goal of what you were trying to achieve where you're trying to get like a hundred people involved or fifty people or twenty, or like what would what did it look like in your head at that point?

[9:22] Andrew Norland: Yeah, once Matt Matt got on board at the beginning of March, and at that point the whole plan was to self-publish, which now when I look back at it, uh like how many people have gotten this book and how excited people have become, and this the scale, like you just said, of what it's become.

[9:39] Andrew Norland: I'm like, in what universe did I ever imagine I was I would literally be sitting here in my office in New York City, like literally like mailing things.

[9:46] Andrew Norland: I would be a shit be, I would be the USPS system out of my house.

[9:50] Andrew Norland: That was never I have no idea why we ever thought that was a good idea.

[9:53] Andrew Norland: Um but truly it just the m the more people bought into the idea, and the more people were like, Oh, this is helping me, the more we had to pivot and realize, okay, this has to become bigger than us.

[10:05] Andrew Norland: Yeah.

[10:05] Andrew Norland: And I always have said that.

[10:06] Andrew Norland: I've said that to my team the entire time, the entire year, and I've been trying to say that to myself.

[10:11] Andrew Norland: Like, the m every single time I get out of my own way and I take myself out of it and remind myself, even like what you just asked me, like what like kind of goals did I have?

[10:20] Andrew Norland: There was of course like moments that's the only way that I like that I can keep going in something this massive and creative, like, is trying to have these sort of mile markers and sort of an intention behind what I'm doing, and there was always intention, but sort of these goals when we were going to self-publish of what I wanted it to maybe look like.

[10:36] Andrew Norland: And it was truly just the perfect storm of everything happening.

[10:41] Andrew Norland: I I I was so um inundated with trying to w focus on this, and sort of my body while I was home in Oregon with my family, just was telling me, it's time to go back to New York.

[10:51] Andrew Norland: It's time you've been here for 11 and a half months, you've got to go.

[10:54] Andrew Norland: So I came back to New York and I just spent the first few months.

[10:57] Andrew Norland: I was still on unemployment, uh, making my house a home because I love interior design.

[11:02] Andrew Norland: That's what I grew up doing, that's what my mom does.

[11:03] Andrew Norland: And I uh got the idea to reach out to our now, our publisher, um, from this coffee table book that my uh drama teacher from children's theater gave me when I was when I was a little kid when I graduated from high school.

[11:16] Andrew Norland: She wrote this beautiful note inside one of the Playbill Broadway yearbooks, which they don't print anymore.

[11:20] Andrew Norland: Um But when they were printing those, she gave me that as a gift of the shows that were on Broadway the year that I graduated high school.

[11:27] Andrew Norland: And she was like, I'm so proud of you for chasing after your dream.

[11:29] Andrew Norland: And I picked this up one day, and I like just really needed to read that letter she had Catherine had written written me in the front of it, and then I turned it over, and I was like, Oh, this is published by Applause TV and Cinema Books and Theater Books.

[11:29] Andrew Norland: And I was like, and my wheels just started spinning.

[11:45] Andrew Norland: And then I kind of put it down, and then like a few weeks passed, and then I picked it up again and I reached out to their info at email and like went about my days to do list.

[11:54] Andrew Norland: And it's 20 minutes later, I my I get this email in my inbox from this guy named John from his personal email that says, Andrew, I just watched your video and I just read your pitch, and I'm very, very intrigued.

[12:05] Andrew Norland: Can I call you right now?

[12:07] Andrew Norland: And I was like, Yes.

[12:12] Andrew Norland: And uh he called me on the phone.

[12:14] Andrew Norland: We talked for an hour.

[12:15] Andrew Norland: I was late to work that day.

[12:16] Andrew Norland: I did not give a shit.

[12:18] Andrew Norland: Um he he basically was like, he was like, I really, really love this idea.

[12:22] Andrew Norland: Nobody's doing this, this.

[12:23] Andrew Norland: This is really special.

[12:24] Andrew Norland: He was like, How much do you have done?

[12:26] Andrew Norland: And I was like, Oh god.

[12:29] Andrew Norland: And uh he goes, he goes Is this when you get honest?

[12:32] Andrew Norland: Exactly, exactly.

[12:35] Andrew Norland: Uh he goes, How much do you have done?

[12:37] Andrew Norland: And I was like, Well, um and to timeline wise, right when me and him are having this conversation, one week before that was when they had just announced the the Broadway return of December September 14th date.

[12:50] Andrew Norland: Like everything was super ominous until then, which is why me and Matt felt we had a lot of time.

[12:54] Andrew Norland: And then suddenly Broadway's like, We're back on September 14th, and we were like, shit.

[13:01] Andrew Norland: Hang on, this this is 2021 you're talking about this year.

[13:04] Andrew Norland: This year, yeah.

[13:05] Andrew Norland: So you had that conversation with the publisher in 2021.

[13:09] Andrew Norland: Correct.

[13:10] Andrew Norland: We we yes, yes.

[13:12] Andrew Norland: Oh my goodness.

[13:13] Andrew Norland: I thought I thought we were talking about the previous year.

[13:15] Andrew Norland: Okay, this is really helpful.

[13:17] Andrew Norland: Put the dates in, put the dates in.

[13:20] Andrew Norland: So I had a conversation this this year, 2021, uh, with Matt and got him on board because I had the idea in in late November, early November of 2020.

[13:31] Andrew Norland: Then people submitted letters until and and finished submitting letters in March.

[13:35] Andrew Norland: Matt came on board in March.

[13:37] Andrew Norland: We did not I did not talk to the publisher until May 5th, and the publisher did not come on board until the first week of June.

[13:45] Andrew Norland: Whoa and then we did we did 45 photo shoots in the month of June.

[13:50] Andrew Norland: What?

[13:52] Andrew Norland: And then uh we had to turn the book in by July 1st.

[13:57] Andrew Norland: Oh my goodness.

[13:59] Andrew Norland: Yes.

[13:59] Andrew Norland: I've got so many questions, but carry on.

[14:02] Andrew Norlen: But back to what I the what I said before. So the bananas thing, and I'm so glad we're talking about this because on all the interviews that he put I haven't done I haven't talked about the timeline yet, and I think it's just hilarious because when I was in it, I was like, so we were all so tired. Um, but in the best way, as I'm sure you both know. So when I talked to him on the phone, he was like, Andrew, you gotta realize like books that are coming out, and he said to me, What's your timeline? And I said, Well, uh, John, now that Broadway's coming back with full force, it sounds like I said, we can't really publish a book called When the Lights are Bright Again, seven months after the lights have been bright. So our timeline is kind of now, like this fall. And he was like, Okay, he goes, just so you know, books that are published this November were picked up minimum last November.

[14:50] Andrew Norlen: And he's like, now granted, he said, It's not impossible. I will never forget this. He's like, it's not impossible, but it's gonna be really hard. And I was like, Okay, I can do really hard. We've done COVID, I can do really hard. Oh my goodness. So he was like, Let me do some have some conversations, let me let me talk to my people and see how we could do this. He's like, at that time, he goes, How much of the book do you have designed? And I said, I don't have a designer yet. Oh I didn't have a page designed of this book, and we were still at that point. We had done three photo shoots. There's 50 in the book. Oh my lord. And so I'm telling this to him. I'm trying to get him to buy into this idea while I'm telling him all of the stuff we don't have done.

And I'm like, crap. So we hang up. Um I did not for lack of a better term, and he didn't because he was working on getting it green lit. But um, it felt like because we were, you know, like once you have someone interested, now you're waiting for the gatekeeper, of course.

[15:48] John Schwab: Yes.

[15:49] Andrew Norlen: So we didn't talk he like basically ghosted me for three weeks. Um and we didn't talk, and I was like, okay, so this is done. Like, we just kept pursuing self self-publishing. Um, I went on to read Z. I found uh an amazing designer, her name's Asia Blue, she lives here in the city. Um, incredible woman. We met for coffee. Uh I'm telling her this story about how I connected with John at applause, and she's like, oh my gosh, that's such a good lead. And and we're talking about self-publishing at this coffee on 47th and 9th because I haven't heard from him. And in the perfect universe way of this book, I get I were sitting, I'm sitting with Acia at this thing. I get an email on my phone while I am sitting with the designer that I've already chosen from John that says, I'm having a meeting with the higher ups on Thursday.

This is a Tuesday morning. I'm with Aisha at the coffee shop, and it says, I'm having a meeting on Thursday. Um, the project's going to probably get green lit. I need you to do this, this, and this before Thursday. Do you think you can do that? I said yes. He said, How much more do you have done? By that point, Acia had designed like five pages beautifully. We sent those off. We sent this whole pitch deck of all of my plans for publicity and all of that, like sort of the marketing plan that we had made that we were going to do whether we had a publisher or not, and they were incredibly impressed. And so, and then by Friday morning, they told us it was a yes and that we were a good for November 1st publication date. We had to get the books, we had to get the book turned in by July 1st. So then it just was like full steam ahead.

[17:16] Andrew Norlen: Wow. I oh I might need to change clothes, Matt, because I'm sweating. I mean, I mean I know I know the pressure. We know the pressure. You're you're talking to uh people who have drunk that go-aid of wanting to get a coffee table book out there. And the pressure to the design and is huge. I mean, we had time. We thought we didn't have time because we put ourselves under seventh eight-month window, Matt. I'm feeling all of those emotions all over again. I I never thought I would do. Like, you know, we started out thinking um that we were going to do an annual book, Andrew. So, and then you know, we were shooting throughout a whole year, just to give you a little bit of context. But so we we went backstage um in London to uh a total of about 70 productions over the course of a year.

Uh so we'd go and watch the show, then we'd go and shoot backstage live whilst it was happening. Um the vast majority of those shoots kind of happened in the last two months, and so we kind of come around to January the 6th of whatever year it was, and that was our last shoot, and we were publishing on the 1st of March.

[18:36] John Schwab: Oh my gosh.

[18:38] Andrew Norlen: And we had we had a bit more of the book design by that point. We basically had like um two weeks to kind of design the entire book, which was 430 pages, uh, and then get that turned around and printed and uh out to distributors for uh a March the fourth publishing date.

[19:00] John Schwab: Wow, so we can thoroughly comprehend the situation that you guys were in.

[19:07] Andrew Norlen: Yeah, and it sounds like an even tighter deadline, which is just crazy. So, I mean, first of all, congratulations on getting it done. Like, I do not know how you're still alive, um, but well done.

[19:20] John Schwab: That's a good question, I don't either. Um, but how I mean how I'm intrigued. Like, so when you because we did stupidly self-publish our own our book, so we did not have a publisher, but I'm intrigued with with the publisher, how much of the workload does that take on in terms of distribution, sign-off, copy writing, you know, all of that kind of side of things.

[19:45] Andrew Norlen: Yeah, so because uh of the like philanthropic element of um of the book going to the actors fund per copy sold everywhere in the world forever, because we were a drop-in title, they had a little bit of uh in their budget left for drop in title, which was back to him saying like it's not impossible, but it's gonna be really hard. And we did a partnership instead of a traditional um book deal, which allowed us to make more money for the actors' fund per copy, and because of how tight the timeline was. So what was pretty cool about that is that that allowed us to maintain um maintain rights for for the photos and the letters and intellectual property and stuff and all of that, all of that legalese and stuff, as you guys both know, I'm sure.

And yeah, so that sort of um allowed us a lot of freedom, but because of the tight timeline, like the designer, that was out of pocket for me. That wasn't something that they that they did. It was it was they were allowing us the reach, which is what they were gonna bring to the table. Like the fact, like I said before, that I didn't need to become a distribution center out of my tiny little office right here.

[20:52] John Schwab: Yeah.

[20:52] Andrew Norlen: They now the book can go to all these distributors, and they I think we probably we would never have had such we would never have had such a beautiful product without without their help.

[21:05] John Schwab: Yeah, so where has it kind of gone to?

[21:08] Andrew Norlen: Um yeah, it's at uh it's everywhere. It's uh in it's on Amazon, it's in Barnes and Noble, um, it's at the local, like when I saw it on the shelf at the drama bookshop here in New York City, I left freaked out. Um it's it's at Target online, it's it's everywhere books are sold. Yeah, there's uh I have friends. I lived in Australia for a little bit um and worked there, and I had friends that were like, it's on uh it's it's here too. So that like that blows my mind.

[21:37] Salisha Thomas: Hey everyone, this is Salisha Thomas from Black Hair and the Big Leagues, part of the Broadway podcast network. Welcome back to the Curtain Call Podcast. So tell me about that moment because I remember that very well with when you received the first copy of the book and you open it up. Talk me through that.

[21:56] Andrew Norlen: Yeah, I actually did that was for my family especially. I I did uh an Instagram live to to do the unboxing here at my apartment, and we were me and Matt were planning to do it together, but he he was so impatient and he's like, I have to know what the photography looks like. I just want you to open them without me. Um because that was the other that was the other concern, like because we were doing it on such a tight timeline, there was almost just because of the nature of of printing right now and and everything and proofing, and yeah, so I never I never saw photos printed on the paper. I never saw physical proofs ever in this process.

[22:40] Andrew Norlen: Wow. I saw things on a PDF, and then I saw in like an advanced reader copy that was like black and white, like printed on regular, like crappy printer paper, um, like spiral bound. And but that wasn't a proof. It had already that was the advanced reader copy. It was already done. It was already sent to print, and I like saw that. So the only thing we had to like beg to get 10, we were allowed to pick 10 photos um for Matt to check the color on the type of paper. Um, and he was like in the middle of a shoot in LA, and he they got sent to his where he was staying to his hotel, these 10 pictures before we were allowed to like say and sign off. We like it was very, very hard. They were like, we don't have the timeline for this.

It was just them doing their job, like everybody in this they're like, if you want it November 1st, like we gotta keep going. Um we were like, we have to see these pictures printed the way on the on the size of paper, all of it. And so Matt was like, okay, yes, you have the go-ahead, but like truly, like I had only ever seen it on a on a computer screen. So the feeling the day I got to open this box, and like it felt like I was like stepping into a new car, the smell was just unbelievable. And it was just to see something that to see something that was this little idea in my mind that if I'm being totally, totally real. So my sister has always called me an idea man, and she often teases me because she's like, sometimes you're a little bit cart before the horse before you think about how you're gonna do it.

I'm I'm very much like big like the the macro first before the before the micro. It is the double-edged sort of of who I of my being. But when I opened this, when I had that idea last year, like I said, there was something inside of me that was like, if I do this right, this is gonna change my life. And it's gonna change my life not for my own benefit, it's gonna change my life of of reminding me of why I do this. And it truly has done that. When I opened up the box to see this book and this thing that sure it was my idea, but I it is really important to me to remind people that this book doesn't exist without the theater community. This book doesn't exist without humans being willing and vulnerable to share their struggle, to share their joy, to share their grief, and to remind anyone, because this book is not a Broadway book.

This book is not. This book is sure. It's told through the lens of the theater community during this time. Um but this this book is so much more a book about the human condition and what we all went through during COVID. Um I think I think humanity can relate to this book way more than they think they can. And that's what I keep trying to remind people when they ask me is because when I opened up the box, I just felt like enormous pride, but I felt pride, I wasn't proud of myself. I was proud of these 207 people that were brave and and vulnerable and willing enough to say, Yes, this is gonna help me to to feel the same feeling that I got to pass on. And really, I have to give credit to my friend McKenna.

Like it really wasn't fully my idea. The book was my idea, but this idea of saying, I need to write down what I'm going through so that it's not consuming me so much anymore. I need to put pen to paper and and speak out my trauma from this time, this shared grief we've all been through. I need to speak it out so that it's not consuming my life and that so that I can move on. That's been the coolest thing is like people in the book saying, Andrew, I haven't even read my letter in months and months, and I'm so scared to read it. Like, I don't think I'm in the same place I was when I wrote it. And I'm like, that's what a beautiful thing. That's the point.

[26:19] John Schwab: What an incredible historical document, basically, of that time. And as you say, not obviously through the lens of Broadway, through the lens of theater and performing, and whether whether it was you know, working in a theater or attending as an audience member or performing. But a record of the human condition through that time that that is really unique. What a what I mean, a great concept, but I I'm really interested to hear about the types of people that wrote those letters, the variety of people, and and maybe one or two of the stories that particularly resonated for you if if you can divulge.

[26:58] Andrew Norlen: The the hardest thing to do number one, the hardest thing was just as we kept receiving more and more, it was it was overwhelming to see to actually see the scope of what people had had been through during the year. Um people sharing stories of people they lost to COVID, people sharing stories of the ways in which racial injustice in our country and our world were directly affecting their day-to-day life and their their vulnerability and willingness to stand up and to speak about it. And sort of what I love about the book is that it's not it has nothing to do with fame. The people that are big, big big names in this book are not talking about their resume in this book, they're talking about things that like probably before this time, before this grand reckoning, our country as the United States and our world has been through in terms of racial injustice specifically, people are talking about things that like quote unquote, maybe their team or their manager, their agent would say to them, Don't bring that up, don't talk about that in the public eye, that might ruin your career.

And people don't care anymore. And that's what I love. That's what this book is about. It was really important to me for it to be political, for it to be um, and not political in a polarizing way, but political in the sense of talking about the real shit, the shit that matters, that's really important to me, and for us to not like someone that is a teenage dreamer dreaming of their day in the spotlight on a Broadway stage, can be is in this book and can be next to a Tony winning actress, and they're they're the same. Like it's a reminder, they're in the same book, they're printed in the same ink, they're their experience is the same, and what they've been through is the same. So, what I wanted to share was the most overwhelming thing was figuring out what am I gonna do to sort of create a digestible way for people to take in the book because we have all these letters, I can't just like willy-nilly like put them like all in what order are they gonna go in.

So this I had this idea to sort of create chapters that is how I interpreted sort of the journey we went on during COVID. So the first chapter is time. So it's sort of this idea of like we were given this gift of time we all never asked for, but what are we gonna do with it? And then that moves to grief, sort of this shared grief that the world is going through, and then how do you go through that? And that goes into justice and creativity, connection, magic, present, joy, essential, healing, hope, and remember. And so I just wanted to all of the chapters, I sort of laid out all of these letters and read each one once or twice through and sort of picked out like what I would describe as like the nugget of each person's letter.

[29:40] Andrew Norlen: Now, granted, each person's letter could go into many, many different chapters, it's up for interpretation. That's what art is, which is the beauty of it. But sort of how I wanted to curate it and how I saw it. I wanted to create something, a coffee table book. Like if you sat down, I did an interview last week and she was like, I read the whole book cover to cover this weekend, and I was like, oh my god, are you okay? Um that would that is just a lot. That's a lot emotionally to handle. And so I wanted to create something that, especially specifically for people in the theater community that buy this and own this and keep this in their homes. I wanted to create something that maybe you go and you have a really crappy audition and you are like feeling really inside yourself and inside your head and feeling like where am I in this business?

You can come and you can turn to a chapter. If what you're needing is a pick-me-up, you can turn to the chapter about joy, and you can read stories from people that have incredible, like illustrious careers right next, like I said before, right next to someone that is like in the trenches of the hustle with you too, and realize that like you are not alone, or if you're in the middle of really, really deep pain and grief and you're you're trying to convince yourself that it's okay for you to walk away from New York for a hot second or take time for your family, you can turn to the chapter about grief and you can remind yourself that I'm not alone in this business and the business doesn't define me, but my job is a job, and it's just it's so it's very validating, and I wanted to create something like I said that was digestible and that wasn't someone like searching for inspiration.

[31:13] John Schwab: I love that concept. I think that's wonderful. It is quite interesting. That last example that you gave there of, you know, whether you're grieving or in a position where a family member has passed away for whatever reason, like finding that connection, but also being giving yourself permission to take that time out as well.

[31:36] Andrew Norlen: Yeah. Because we're we're all so aware of the pressures that the industry does put on us. That's freelancers. I mean, I always sat in a coffee shop just two days ago in London and eavesdropping, I love eavesdropping, to a couple of dancers, and one of them was just saying, So when when did you tell the company manager about your grandmother? And she's like, I haven't. I I don't know how to tell them, but I just need I need to take time off, but I don't know how to take time off. I don't know. This is my first job, so how do I how do I explain that and not put myself in a situation where I'm gonna be cast as somebody who's unreliable or whatever, and it's all that side of the industry is really important to kind of remember that actually we're humans first, not performers.

[32:29] Andrew Norlen: Yeah. I I've I think I have a couple more questions because we we were keeping you long longer than the 20 minutes I thought it would take, but this is fascinating. I could talk to you for hours.

[32:42] John Schwab: Yeah, I'd like to preface this question with saying that the Actors Fund is possibly the best philanthropic organization for the arts there is. They just know how to raise the funds and support. I wish we had something like that over here in the UK. We don't, and we desperately need something that has that power and impact. When they say we're raising for something, it happens. So there are two things that just kind of hit me when I went on the website, your website, and one was to see that all proceeds were going to the Actors Fund, and also mentioning um Nick Cordero, which was just one of those stories where that we were filled with hope when Amanda said, Oh, he's awake, and then things were happening.

And it just, I still get goosebumps and sad, and it's still just that whole that was that was just my almost my memory for quite some time about COVID in the arts was Nick Cordero. How is Nick doing today? When was the decision that that was going to be what organization benefited from When the Lights Are Bright Again?

[33:54] Andrew Norlen: Yeah, so the moment that I had the idea, I I I knew I knew in a strange way, I knew the only there's just something inside of me that said this needs to be something that's giving that's giving back to the community. If the if if I am going to ask such a tall order of people in the community during this time, because I know how how hard it is to write the letter. I literally started the project and didn't write my letter until March when I reached out to Matt. I was like receiving letters before I ever wrote one. Talk about being an idea man and um but I knew I was like, if I'm going to this has to give back to us in some way, if I'm going to ask people to to be divulge so much information of their heart and their soul and be brave to share their experience during this time.

So then my wheel started spinning, and I was like, okay, like who do I reach out to? And Actors Fund was fresh on my mind because I actually a month before that had just had a Zoom cocktail hour, of course, we all were doing that, um, with my my national tour Kinky Boots cast with some friends and my friend uh Andrew Poston, he was sharing with us um that the Actors Fund had like paid his rent for three or four months during COVID. And I just like that blew my mind, and then it like reminded me, because I was home in Oregon, it was just wasn't like in that world or thinking about it, and as I alluded to at the beginning of the interview, like kind of was avoiding those feelings and really thinking about the business at all.

And when he said that, that just stuck with me. So then when I had this idea, I was like, oh my gosh, that is if I'm gonna ask people to share their truth. Why don't when people buy the book and read these people's stories? The money they use to buy the book goes back into helping our business and helping the people in the business because it's about the Actors Fund is about the people, it's not about the business. And which is such a beautiful thing. So I reached out to um a guy named Douglas Ramirez, and I called him probably a week into having this idea, right after I had like bought the domain name for the website and knew I wanted it to be called When Lights Are Bright Again, and I like pitched this to him on the phone, and I'm saying all of these things, and he stops me.

I will never forget that's probably my favorite story of the whole book creation, and he goes, Andrew, I'm gonna stop you. Um I'm sorry to interrupt you. But he was like, I have heard he's like, I'm wiping away tears. I have heard so many pitches for ideas of how people can help us this entire summer. This was 2020 last year. And he goes, I have heard nothing like this. This is really special. We would love to be a part of this. And at that point, there was so many, so many things I didn't know. But he has been they have been so supportive this entire time, and I would have had it no other way, and so that's how that came to be.

[36:42] Andrew Norlen: Similar to what you just said, I I knew that I wanted it to be dedicated to Nick because just watching the way in which Amanda chose to be resilient, chose joy over over um cowering away in her grief, chose being present with her community and leaning. It was just such a picture of um a picture of choosing the people in her life and like that like the dictionary definition of of um of bravery. I was just so enamored by her deciding to to choose Elvis and to choose her family and to choose Nick and and she knew and the whole the whole singing with him across the world at three o'clock every day. It was just it was amazing what she created, and she was creating space for her husband, and he wasn't even awake.

But I I read her book, which is beautiful, you should buy it, and just again, her leaning into that is just such a picture of what the community is, and it's so clear that like who she is is is a product of tenacity and is a product of of how hard the hustle can be, but like of of reinvention and that that's what creative artists do. That's what we do. We we have to find the hope and the light and the flame inside of the pain. And so I was just so just like you said, I was so inspired and just following that journey from my from my house in Oregon with her the whole time, and just enraptured by her choice to choose her family every day over over over wallowing in her grief. Now, granted, everyone needs to take the time that they need, and I don't I don't say wallowing lightly.

I know that that is a moment and a time anybody needs in any journey, but it was just so admirable that she was like, I'm not really doing a service to him in this moment of him fighting if I'm not asking for help and asking for people to fight with me. So it was just so there was just no question. I was like, it has to be dedicated to Nick.

[38:43] John Schwab: That's amazing. Andrew. This has been fascinating. I like I said, I could talk to you for for many, many, many, many more hours. And this is a phenomenal project. Um I cannot wait to read it. Anyone and everyone should go to uh whenthelightsarebrightagain.com to find out a bit more about the book, about the why, about a bit more about Andrew and a bit uh more about Matthew. Oh so many questions for both of you, but anyway, that's a different thing to be.

[39:12] Andrew Norlen: I know.

[39:13] John Schwab: I mean it might have to be a follow-up podcast because it is incredible. But um is there anything you'd uh lastly, just to round this up before we we head off. Is there anything that you'd really like people to to kind of go away with the book? It if it in just top top line scope, you know, they they got it, they've lived through it. What is your your hope that they put the book down and and and kind of walk away from their coffee table? What is it that you really like them to take away from that book?

[39:43] Andrew Norlen: Yeah, so there's actually there's actually a space in the back of the book um where I invite you to write your own letter and to be a part of of this process and to be a part of the book because I want it to keep going. And um that invitation is is forever, and I hope that um I hope that don't feel like you need to sit down and write your letter the moment that you get your the book in your house. I think that you will know when you're supposed to let out whatever it is you're going through right now in your life and and write that down into this book and let go of it and realize that there is a there is a space for you. There's a space for um the grief that you're in the middle of. There's a gr there's a space for the joy that you're in the middle of.

I think there's also a lot of like there's a lot of fear right now around what we share and how we share it, and uh am I allowed to be in joy right now because there's so many people in pain, and I think that all of it's relative. And I think that if you have perspective and if you have if you're entering everything with intention and kindness, I think that there is a space for you to be celebrating your joy and joys in your life in the midst of utter grief. Those things can be happening inside of you at the exact same moment, and you don't need to shame yourself out of out of asking for help when you need it or asking for someone to to celebrate you when you need it too. So um everything and what you're experiencing is valid, and I just would encourage you to pick up this book if there's someone that's a theater lover in your life.

It's a great idea for a holiday or a Christmas present. Um and and and invite them, invite them to write their letter and and and tell them that you heard this podcast and you thought of them, and that's just sort of my mantra and my mission and everything that I do and create and put out into the world is is I want I want to remind people that that they have value and that even in the midst of hardship or grief or trials in your life, there is a space for you and you are loved and you're enough.

[41:35] John Schwab: Bam. A perfect coda.

[41:36] Andrew Norlen: That's a great coda, yeah.

[41:38] John Schwab: Thank you, Andrew.

[41:39] Andrew Norlen: Thank you, Andrew. It's a uh catharsis, this whole project, I can see that for you. So thank you for sharing it with us. Not only is it a beautiful photography book, but uh worthy cause and and everybody involved in it should be very proud of it. Well done.

[41:46] Andrew Norlen: Thank you.

[41:59] John Schwab: Thanks.

[42:04] John Schwab: Andrew Norlen, artist and performer and now author of When the Lights Are Bright Again. If you're looking for the perfect Christmas present for the theater fan this year, look no further. Go to When the Lights Are Bright Again.com and nab your copy today.

[42:20] John Schwab: Now before I go, just a few housekeeping bits. Quick reminder that you can download and subscribe to the podcast from the Apple Podcast app or from iTunes. That way your feed will be automatically updated. But you can also listen to us on other podcast streaming services such as Stitcher, Google Play, iHeart Radio, all those lovely things. And also spare a few seconds to help us reach more theater lovers by leaving us a review or rate. Uh it's great. You can follow us on all the socials, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook at Curtain Call, all one word. And you can follow me at John Schwab, J O H N S C H W A B. We'd love to hear from you if you have any suggestions or feedback for the podcast. Get in touch with us via any of the social media platforms you just mentioned, or write to me at John at CurtainCallOnline.com. Now don't forget to sign up to get a free profile in Curtain Call.

If you are a theater live events or entertainment professional, go to CurtainCallonline.com, sign up. Uh we've launched a new platform. We were funded by Innovate UK to help get professionals back to work. So it doesn't matter where you live in the world, sign up for a free profile. Do it, you won't regret it. And it just leaves me to say a huge thank you to Andrew Norlen. Once again, head on over to WhenTheLightsAreBrightAgain.com to secure your copy of the coffee table book of the same name, When the Lights Are Bright Again. I will put those links in the show notes. Thank you to Sure Microphones for continuing to be our equipment sponsor for this podcast. A huge thank you again to Salisha Thomas of the Black Hair and the Big Leagues Podcast.

If you haven't checked her out, go do it. Head on over to Broadway Podcast Network website or app and listen to Salisha. She's amazing and full of energy. Lastly, a big thank you to all of you who tune in regularly to this podcast. Without you, we wouldn't be where we are today. We really appreciate it and look forward to bringing you even more episodes soon. Stay safe and look after yourselves. Bye.