This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:15] Cheeyang Un: This is East Side Story, and I'm your host, Cheeyang Un.

[0:20] Cheeyang Un: Each week I sit down with an Asian or Asian American artist working in the New York theater scene, and I excavate their life story.

[0:28] Cheeyang Un: How they grew up, how they got their start in theater, as well as projects they've worked on and upcoming work that we should anticipate.

[0:35] Cheeyang Un: This week's guest is Kuhoo Verma.

[0:38] Cheeyang Un: She was most recently seen at Signature Theatre's Octet, written by Dave Malloy and directed by Annie Tippe.

[0:44] Cheeyang Un: She made her movie debut in The Big Sick and is currently in workshops for Broadway-bound musicals, Monsoon Wedding, and Secret Garden.

[0:51] Cheeyang Un: I got to work with Kuhoo on my musical, The Golden Threshold.

[0:55] Cheeyang Un: And she is not only a really smart actor, but her voice is also completely out of this world.

[1:01] Cheeyang Un: Therefore, the perfect fit for the first episode of the series.

[1:05] Cheeyang Un: Enjoy.

[1:07] Cheeyang Un: Let's jump into our conversation.

[1:09] Cheeyang Un: So why don't you introduce yourself?

[1:11] Kuhoo Verma: My name is Kuhoo Verma.

[1:19] Kuhoo Verma: I am from I was just speaking to the cab driver on the way over. I'm from Pennsylvania, but my parents are from India.

[1:25] Kuhoo Verma: But the little tidbit that I usually don't tell racist people is that I was actually born in India.

[1:30] Kuhoo Verma: So technically I really am from India.

[1:32] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[1:33] Kuhoo Verma: I didn't even know this.

[1:34] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, yeah.

[1:35] Kuhoo Verma: Well, I present as very white usually, and so I very much am like, oh, I'm from Pennsylvania.

[1:40] Kuhoo Verma: And I like kind of begging them to ask the where are you really from question so I can be like Pennsylvania.

[1:46] Kuhoo Verma: But the truth is I'm actually from India.

[1:48] Kuhoo Verma: I was born in India.

[1:49] Cheeyang Un: Which part of India?

[1:50] Kuhoo Verma: New Delhi.

[1:51] Cheeyang Un: Oh, wonderful.

[1:52] Cheeyang Un: City Girl.

[1:53] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[1:53] Kuhoo Verma: City Girl her whole life.

[1:54] Kuhoo Verma: City girl, my entire, entire life, yeah.

[1:56] Cheeyang Un: A little different.

[1:57] Cheeyang Un: But talk a little bit about your childhood.

[1:59] Kuhoo Verma: Um, how big is your family?

[2:01] Kuhoo Verma: Uh and you grew up in Pennsylvania and how was that experience?

[2:04] Kuhoo Verma: I grew up kind of everywhere.

[2:05] Kuhoo Verma: Like, I got to see a lot of different places in America.

[2:08] Kuhoo Verma: So, like, was in Delhi and you know, in India, it's such communal living.

[2:13] Kuhoo Verma: It's very much like everyone's taking care of each other.

[2:15] Kuhoo Verma: And family is always nearby, you know.

[2:19] Kuhoo Verma: And if you're if you're a kid, you have like seven guardians, eight guardians, you know, the gardener's taking care of you, the person that sweeps your house is taking care of you, you know.

[2:27] Cheeyang Un: Right, right.

[2:28] Kuhoo Verma: And which is really great.

[2:29] Kuhoo Verma: Um, and then I went to I lived in LA for a bit, lived in Ohio for a bit, New Jersey for a bit, obviously, because I'm Indian.

[2:36] Kuhoo Verma: And then I we like eventually ended up in Pennsylvania.

[2:40] Cheeyang Un: I did not know this.

[2:41] Cheeyang Un: I did not know that you grew up so many places.

[2:44] Cheeyang Un: I just I knew you were from Pennsylvania, but like I never knew you were born in India and then you like traveled so many places.

[2:50] Kuhoo Verma: Well, I I I don't have an allegiance to states.

[2:53] Kuhoo Verma: I think in the same way that a lot of people do.

[2:55] Kuhoo Verma: So like, you know, even now I talk to people and are like, oh, like I'm a Colorado dude, like I love Colorado, like that's where I'm from, you know.

[3:03] Kuhoo Verma: But like that is gonna be that is gonna be edited as as the Kuhoo mod tag Colorado.

[3:08] Kuhoo Verma: I'm a Colorado dude.

[3:10] Kuhoo Verma: And I'm like, that's great.

[3:11] Kuhoo Verma: I don't have any allegiance to Pennsylvania specifically or to any other state in America at all.

[3:18] Kuhoo Verma: You know, my allegiance.

[3:19] Kuhoo Verma: Not even to New York.

[3:20] Kuhoo Verma: That's the thing.

[3:21] Kuhoo Verma: Like New York would be the only place.

[3:23] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[3:23] Kuhoo Verma: You know, and it it's not a state thing, and it's not a geography thing, and it's not a family thing.

[3:30] Kuhoo Verma: It's the feeling that no matter everywhere I've been, the place that I had 100% of a choice in picking of like where I wanted to end up and where I wanted to live was here.

[3:40] Kuhoo Verma: And that was a choice that was not up to anyone else but me.

[3:44] Kuhoo Verma: It wasn't visas and it wasn't where work went and we followed the work as immigrants.

[3:48] Kuhoo Verma: It was just me being like, I want to live here.

[3:50] Kuhoo Verma: I see myself flourishing here.

[3:52] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[3:52] Kuhoo Verma: And this is where I choose to be.

[3:54] Cheeyang Un: And flourish you did.

[3:55] Kuhoo Verma: And flourish, I am.

[3:56] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, I am, am.

[3:57] Kuhoo Verma: Not even, yeah, it's it's happening right now, right here, right now.

[4:00] Cheeyang Un: And do you have any siblings?

[4:02] Kuhoo Verma: I do have a little sister.

[4:03] Cheeyang Un: I never knew that either.

[4:04] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[4:04] Kuhoo Verma: Wait, have I seen photos of her?

[4:06] Kuhoo Verma: Probably not.

[4:07] Kuhoo Verma: I find that I don't speak about my family very much.

[4:09] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[4:10] Kuhoo Verma: Um I mean, I do know about your mom.

[4:12] Kuhoo Verma: I do know about your mom, I do know about your dad.

[4:14] Kuhoo Verma: And like the little ism that we talk about sometimes.

[4:18] Kuhoo Verma: They're so wonderful.

[4:19] Kuhoo Verma: I yeah, it's definitely a it was a huge transition going from, you know, hating myself and hating my Indian-ness and like whitewashing myself and finding out that in the process of whitewashing myself, I was erasing my parents' existence in my life and transitioning from like that period in my life to now being like, oh, I have parents that I can talk about.

[4:42] Kuhoo Verma: And then I, you know, I don't need to hide my family anymore, and I don't need to hide that part of myself anymore.

[4:46] Kuhoo Verma: And suddenly it's like people are like, oh, I've never heard about your family.

[4:50] Cheeyang Un: Right.

[4:50] Cheeyang Un: When did you think that that perm where did you think that permission came from?

[4:53] Cheeyang Un: Do you think it's a permission?

[4:54] Cheeyang Un: Do you think it's an awareness?

[4:55] Cheeyang Un: Do you think it's like a sometimes people say like racial awakening?

[4:59] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, you know.

[5:00] Kuhoo Verma: Totally.

[5:00] Kuhoo Verma: I it really felt like, you know, like I'm a brown queer person.

[5:04] Kuhoo Verma: And in the same way that I had a queer awakening, I had like a racial awakening.

[5:07] Kuhoo Verma: So I love that you said that term.

[5:09] Kuhoo Verma: I think my racial awakening happened when the first time I met another Indian actor.

[5:13] Cheeyang Un: Oh.

[5:13] Kuhoo Verma: Another Indian person.

[5:14] Cheeyang Un: Who was it?

[5:15] Kuhoo Verma: Um it was about the first project that I ever did in my entire life, and it was all Indian people.

[5:20] Cheeyang Un: Oh.

[5:21] Kuhoo Verma: And so all at once I was finding 20 people that like were liberal, progressive young artists that were all Indian.

[5:29] Kuhoo Verma: So I can't really even speak to one name.

[5:32] Kuhoo Verma: It was just kind of like an overwhelming experience of like there are 30 Indian people in this room, and every single one of them is nothing like what I thought an Indian person could be.

[5:43] Kuhoo Verma: I find myself in you, and I like see some uh something, a quality in myself in all of you.

[5:49] Kuhoo Verma: And that was a very disorienting.

[5:51] Cheeyang Un: When was that painful experience?

[5:53] Kuhoo Verma: It was uh two three years ago.

[5:55] Kuhoo Verma: Three years ago.

[5:56] Cheeyang Un: Was it Monsoon?

[5:57] Kuhoo Verma: It was Monsoon Wedding, yeah.

[5:59] Kuhoo Verma: And it was, you know, the first show that I ever did in my life.

[6:02] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[6:03] Kuhoo Verma: And so I found that that was the beginning of a very painful process of being like, okay, why have I hated Indian people my entire life?

[6:03] Kuhoo Verma: Why have I hated myself because of that and hated my family because of that?

[6:16] Kuhoo Verma: And I remember like a year into doing Monsoon Wedding, my mom actually told me, she said, I'm really happy that you are a part of this show.

[6:25] Kuhoo Verma: Because I don't know if you noticed, but you've you talked to me differently, and you've been talking to members of your family differently.

[6:32] Cheeyang Un: Wow.

[6:32] Kuhoo Verma: And I feel that there's less tension when you're talking to us.

[6:37] Kuhoo Verma: And I feel that there's a little bit more comfort in who you are and less shame in who you are when you're...

[6:37] Cheeyang Un: Oh my god.

[6:42] Kuhoo Verma: Right before you said the word, I was gonna latch on that word a little bit because that's how we operate as Asian people, the idea of shame and the idea, and and you were also saying, you know, like you felt shame you you follow a shame of being Indian.

[6:56] Kuhoo Verma: It's the same for being queer sometimes, you know, like that internalized whatever it is, right?

[7:01] Kuhoo Verma: Homophobia or how do you say racial phobia?

[7:04] Kuhoo Verma: I don't know.

[7:05] Kuhoo Verma: Just like that I think.

[7:06] Kuhoo Verma: Internalized racism.

[7:07] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[7:08] Kuhoo Verma: Especially because we live in a society that values a certain culture, a certain color more.

[7:14] Kuhoo Verma: I mean, I grew up in a very racist household.

[7:16] Kuhoo Verma: And I I never realized it until, you know, I left and be like, oh fuck.

[7:21] Kuhoo Verma: This is I grew up with this mentality.

[7:25] Kuhoo Verma: Then now I have to like check myself and like figure out why these were taught to me.

[7:30] Kuhoo Verma: I don't think my parents or or or my relatives or my family are necessarily bad people, but it's it's it's the idea that you grew up in an environment that just literally gives you that information and you take as is, you know, and you don't question it, you don't challenge it.

[7:45] Kuhoo Verma: And I think that is very prevalent as well in darker like brown, brown people and black people, like colorism.

[7:53] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[7:54] Kuhoo Verma: Right?

[7:54] Kuhoo Verma: Like, yeah.

[7:55] Kuhoo Verma: The colorism that's like kind of ingrained in our heads.

[7:58] Kuhoo Verma: It's so funny, like coming to America and then made like we're made to feel like we're more racist than the white people that are here because of the like kind of public, like unapologetic colorism that our families have grown up with.

[8:12] Kuhoo Verma: But you know, we are able, not able, it's always a bad thing.

[8:17] Kuhoo Verma: It's always to be discouraged, but like we have been able to be like kind of openly colorist and racist in our households because we are not contributing to a society that is, you know, racially against, you know, a certain group of people in the same degree that America is.

[8:36] Kuhoo Verma: And so to be coming here and being like, oh, South Indians are darker than North Indians, like I'm North Indian.

[8:42] Kuhoo Verma: So like that was a huge thing.

[8:43] Kuhoo Verma: Like South Indians are darker than North Indians, and so like they're, you know, ugly and they're blah, blah, blah, et cetera.

[8:48] Kuhoo Verma: Like all that fucking undesirable, all that fucking bullshit.

[8:52] Kuhoo Verma: And then me being made to feel like, oh, like your family.

[8:55] Kuhoo Verma: So basically you're telling me that your family's racist.

[8:58] Kuhoo Verma: And I'm like, yeah.

[9:01] Kuhoo Verma: And you need to realize that just because you aren't you're not saying these like blanketed statements, that doesn't mean that you are not contributing to the same shit.

[9:12] Cheeyang Un: Yeah, absolutely.

[9:13] Kuhoo Verma: You know, especially like you seeing all Indians as the same and like fully not understanding like that there is even a difference between those two things.

[9:21] Kuhoo Verma: You know?

[9:22] Kuhoo Verma: It's like, yeah, it's just a little bit more complicated.

[9:24] Kuhoo Verma: It's a different kind of racism.

[9:25] Cheeyang Un: Right.

[9:26] Cheeyang Un: And do you think that you were aware?

[9:27] Cheeyang Un: So because you said, how old are you right now?

[9:30] Kuhoo Verma: I'm 22.

[9:30] Cheeyang Un: I know I'm not supposed to ask that question.

[9:32] Kuhoo Verma: We can edit that out if you don't want to.

[9:35] Kuhoo Verma: Bleep, bleep, bleep.

[9:36] Cheeyang Un: I'm how old are you?

[9:39] Kuhoo Verma: Talk a little bit about like how you functioned as a kid growing up in America.

[9:45] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[9:45] Kuhoo Verma: So like, I mean, for me, I just remember, I mean, I hate number one, I hated my name so much.

[9:52] Kuhoo Verma: You know, even in Indian populations, Kuhoo is not a very popular or common name at all.

[10:00] Kuhoo Verma: Not that that mattered.

[10:01] Kuhoo Verma: That wasn't ever the reason.

[10:02] Kuhoo Verma: It could have been a common Indian name, but I just hated it with all my heart.

[10:06] Kuhoo Verma: I was like, it's not serious, it's not indicative of who of who I am, I think.

[10:10] Kuhoo Verma: It's so easily malleable to like a lot of different nicknames, you know.

[10:15] Kuhoo Verma: And so it wasn't my favorite.

[10:16] Kuhoo Verma: And I think um, you know, that was definitely an excuse that I used.

[10:20] Kuhoo Verma: I had people call me Katie growing up.

[10:22] Cheeyang Un: Wow.

[10:22] Kuhoo Verma: That was one of I changed my name.

[10:24] Kuhoo Verma: Oh, you wanted people to call you Katie.

[10:26] Kuhoo Verma: I wanted people to call me Katie.

[10:27] Cheeyang Un: Wow.

[10:27] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[10:28] Kuhoo Verma: And so I would convince people that like, oh yeah, just, you know, I would love for you to just call me that.

[10:34] Kuhoo Verma: And I definitely took advantage of the fact that I'm very fair skinned.

[10:39] Kuhoo Verma: And so I definitely took advantage of that by telling people that I was biracial and that I had some white in me to make me exotic in a way that was still familiar and exotic in a way that um was more intriguing and less common.

[10:54] Kuhoo Verma: Cause there's the exoticism of being an Indian person and like being from a faraway land and being foreign.

[10:59] Kuhoo Verma: And then there's the exoticism of being like, I'm very, I'm special.

[11:02] Kuhoo Verma: You know, I'm Indian, yes, but I'm also a combination of Indian and white.

[11:06] Kuhoo Verma: And that in itself is so it's foreign in such a beautiful way as compared to foreign in a common way of just being one of many Indians in the world.

[11:16] Cheeyang Un: And that's something that you personally believed in.

[11:18] Kuhoo Verma: You believed that that would, you know, put you in a spot where like you don't have to be.

[11:22] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[11:23] Kuhoo Verma: Which is and that you consciously did as a child.

[11:26] Kuhoo Verma: Totally.

[11:26] Kuhoo Verma: As a as you know, a child that like really didn't know better and didn't know like why I wanted those things.

[11:33] Kuhoo Verma: But as far as I was concerned, you I mean, you you didn't know why, but but like the media was bombarding you with all of that, right?

[11:40] Kuhoo Verma: Like, even me growing up in Singapore, it's like you're still bombarded with the white images.

[11:44] Kuhoo Verma: You always think that the white person is the ideal.

[11:49] Kuhoo Verma: You know, I also hate the word representation because it's like oh, or diversity rather.

[11:52] Kuhoo Verma: It's like, oh, there's a very diverse cast.

[11:54] Kuhoo Verma: I don't think it's a diverse cast.

[11:56] Kuhoo Verma: I think it's a cast that is properly representing the world of today.

[11:59] Kuhoo Verma: That's what it is.

[12:00] Kuhoo Verma: And so when someone is like, oh, they really went out of their way to have a diverse cast, it's like you're making it sound like there were all these white people, and then you had to like really search for the people of color, you know, and it's special or it's like unique, or it's not actually representative of what the world looks like, but rather you're going out of your way to like make this curate the special diverse group of people.

[12:23] Kuhoo Verma: When in reality, it's like, no, you're properly representing what the world looks like.

[12:28] Kuhoo Verma: You know, it's not diverse, and you're not doing anything special.

[12:31] Kuhoo Verma: For the first time, actually, you're doing non-racist casting.

[12:34] Kuhoo Verma: So let's call it that.

[12:35] Kuhoo Verma: There's racist casting, and then there's non-racist casting.

[12:38] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[12:38] Kuhoo Verma: You can cast in a way that is supporting the systemic idea that white people are that more actors are white people, and that more people that are going out to audition and wanting to do these things are white people.

[12:50] Kuhoo Verma: Or you can do non-racist casting, which is completely, you know, neglecting those ideals and and fully realizing that like we're all there.

[13:00] Kuhoo Verma: It's just we haven't been given the same amount of attention and the same amount of ability to grow in this field because of years and years and years of racism.

[13:08] Kuhoo Verma: And it's so cyclical, you know.

[13:10] Kuhoo Verma: It's like the the reason I mean, I personally don't think there are less of certain um racial groups in in the theater and acting and anything.

[13:20] Kuhoo Verma: But there is the idea that Asian people, Asian parents don't want their kids to go into acting, don't want people don't want their kids to go into the arts because first of all, you're not represented in the media. Like 50 years ago, the only like Chinese representation on TV was like a stereotype of a martial arts person, like little tiny eyes, a mustache, and like bucked at buck teeth. And like that, what that's that's the Western perception of what Chinese people looked like. And that was like, if that's the only representation that we get, why would your parents want you to be like, oh, you should aspire to be that? You know, you should aspire to do that form of art or expression. But even now when people are trying to combat that and they're trying to cast, like, oh, this like young person who's like, let's say, let's just say an Indian actress who is playing a character that like goes to school and it's a middle school in Virginia, and like, you know, she's totally normal and she's like very like American.

And then you see like little tiny things of Indian-ness in her background. You know, even that I feel like sometimes they try to combat the race thing so hard to try to make a point that, like, oh no, we're not stereotyping this person. You know, that they'll show like the liberal Indian parents and they'll show the like, you know, like they'll combat it so hard that they're losing kind of the authenticity of what it actually means to be a person of color in America. We're not all the same. Not all Chinese people are the same. Not all Indian people are the same. We don't expect one version of represent like with of portrayal. We don't expect one version of portrayal to be the thing. Like if you portray a family of Chinese people, we're not gonna be like, oh, all Chinese people are like that.

If you if you make more shows and you show more sides of the story, you show different types of people operating in different ways, then we won't jump to that conclusion and be like, oh, you know, fresh off the boat, all Chinese families are gonna be like that. And like, yeah, it's like either one or the other. It's either like playing into the stereotype, which is we hate, or it's like the like very, very, very like, we're combating the stereotypes, and we're gonna show every single little characteristic about this family and about this protagonist to be the opposite of what you think the this Indian is or this Chinese person is. And I'm like, I kinda don't like either version. Like, I kind of am craving um a story where it's like so many different kinds of Indian people in one space and like how they relate to each other.

So many different kinds of Chinese people and how they relate to each other in a space. Like I would be more interested in that rather than just having like a gray fucking, like, look at how many ways we're like trying to show you that we're not racist. Right by writing this story. Right. Not interested in that.

[15:59] Cheeyang Un: I wanna go back to your childhood and growing up. Were you always the performer? Did you always say, Yeah, I wanted to grow up to be an actor, I wanted to grow up to be an a trainer, I wanted to grow up to be in the arts. Was it something that was in your trajectory always?

[16:14] Kuhoo Verma: Well, like because I didn't know what that looked like for me. I never was like, I'm gonna be an actor. I'm gonna like it was less of a career-based thought and more of a like, no matter what I end up doing, I always came back to this desire and this need to create, you know. And it was so much more of that, which I kinda like, you know. It's like instead of chasing success, chase the things you love and success will follow.

[16:42] Cheeyang Un: Oh, absolutely. Literally, David just said that.

[16:45] Kuhoo Verma: Amazing. Of course, I mean, Libras. But yeah, so it's it's very much that idea. Like, no matter what I did, I thought I was gonna be a vet for a hot sack. I thought I was gonna be a lawyer for a hot sack, you know. Like there were so many little little things that I was playing with. But at the end of the day, all of my hours were going into this one thing, which was singing and acting. And you can't argue with that, you know?

[17:07] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[17:08] Kuhoo Verma: When your body, no matter what you're telling yourself, your body just keeps kind of returning to this one thing. And I think I was really privileged in in that way, because it's not like I was looking at these icons, like, I wanna do this, I wanna I'm gonna follow their path, I'm gonna follow their path. I actually wasn't bound by that. I had no examples really to look up to. So instead, I just found within myself what felt right and what felt wrong. What felt like it was gonna be gonna be good for my artistic identity and what didn't feel good. And in that way, it was like such a unique and like original way of building my desires and like building what I thought was gonna work for me as an artistic person. Um yeah, rather than being like, well, Madonna did this, so I'm gonna do exactly that thing. You know.

[17:53] Cheeyang Un: Right. And so you moved to New York. When did you move to New York?

[17:56] Kuhoo Verma: For school. And that was in 2000 and That was in 2004 14?

[18:04] Cheeyang Un: 14.

[18:04] Kuhoo Verma: I graduated last year.

[18:06] Cheeyang Un: Yeah, I graduated last year.

[18:07] Kuhoo Verma: Like she graduated last year, and she's a fucking star. Like, she's always been a fucking star, but like you guys have no idea.

[18:15] Cheeyang Un: Okay.

[18:16] Kuhoo Verma: You're also very biased, but um, yeah, I kind of I am, but it's true. It's like a positive bias. So you came to New York in 2014, you came to NYU. You came to this building.

[18:26] Cheeyang Un: You came to this very building that we're sitting in right now for classes.

[18:31] Kuhoo Verma: And how was that experience for you?

[18:33] Kuhoo Verma: Oh my god, it was listen, I love NYU so much. The school, the university, the place. Like I came here not, yes, for the academics, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever, but like I came here for the city. And I got exactly that. If I wasn't here, I would not, you know, be working today. I don't I would be four years behind. You know, and so I got what I came looking for. As far as my specific program, I can't say that they did anything to respect my artistic identity at all.

[19:03] Cheeyang Un: What do you want to elaborate a little bit about that?

[19:05] Kuhoo Verma: Totally. I was one of two people of color in my class. Um, and when I looked around in my entire program, all grades, I think I saw maybe a hand just a handful of people of color and maybe only one other Indian person. Wow. Um, and as far as Asian people, maybe three Asian people in my entire program. And so it became very clear very quickly that they were catering to white voice. You know, I was in a vocal performance degree. And all of that has to do with the mechanics of the voice, the placement of the voice, the health of the voice, the stability of the voice. And honing just very plainly, honing how you sing. And when it comes to how you sing, it gets very complicated when everyone's perception of good healthy singing is white opera singers.

[19:51] Cheeyang Un: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[19:53] Kuhoo Verma: The way our vocal cords operate are different from how black people's voices operate. It's different from how white people's voices operate. It just it really is different. It is. And that's something that's so big, like, you know, I sing a lot of RB stuff, but like my version of RB is gonna be really different than what people expect because they want me to sound like a black woman, and that's it's just not gonna be that. You know, and the kind of wear and tear that my voice can take is also very different than a a white woman's of my own this very same stature.

[20:23] Cheeyang Un: Absolutely.

[20:24] Kuhoo Verma: And so I would be sometimes singing in class, and they would be like, Oh, I'm worried about like it really sounds like you're hurting yourself, and it, you know, I'm really worried about you. And I trust their degree, I trust their education, I trust them as teachers for the most part, but the fact that you are treating my vocal cords like a white of five two white woman is absolutely unacceptable. And the fact that when you don't know what to do with me, you're giving me gospel songs, like slave songs to sing is also unacceptable. You know, and I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be doing that. And to be a vocal performance program is not to make everyone sound the same. It shouldn't be. It should be how do I take this person's specific artistic gift and artistic voice, and how do I respect their identity while simultaneously giving them the tools to be as healthy and as stable as possible? And that is what I was missing.

[21:17] Cheeyang Un: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about you said monsoon wedding happened. Is it in your junior year?

[21:24] Kuhoo Verma: My sophomore year.

[21:27] Kuhoo Verma: My sophomore year is when I went into the open, it was just an open audition. It was the first audition that I had been to in New York. Like I didn't really know what the deal was. And you know, I was a student of Steinhart. And so I would see all my Tish friends like going out and auditioning for shit. And I was like, how are they doing this already? Like I'm freaking out. And I feel like I need to get in the room and like see what it's about. You know, and so the person I was dating at the time was like, Well, I saw this on Playbill, and it looks kind of like up your alley, you're not gonna get it because it's your first audition. But why don't you just go in and get the feel of the room? You know, and he didn't mean anything by it, other than it's your first audition ever, so obviously you're not gonna fucking get it, but just have fun, have fun with it.

So I went in, it was an open audition in my sophomore year, and I weirdly got a call back for the lead, and then I just kept getting called back until I got it. And so I did two workshops with them, and then I had a show with them at Berkeley Repertory Theater.

[22:22] Cheeyang Un: Talk a little bit about Berkeley rep. Um, how was that your first that was your first regional theater experience?

[22:28] Kuhoo Verma: Yes, that was my first regional theater. That was my first show contract run ever, like eight show a week situation ever was at Berkeley Rep.

[22:35] Cheeyang Un: Oh, let's talk about that. Eight shows a week.

[22:37] Kuhoo Verma: Oh my god, I did not know how to adjust to that. I just like I didn't I didn't understand like art is seen so differently in India and is seen so differently in Indian culture. Like it's n it's never supposed to be something that is monetized upon really unless you're at a certain level, and it's also something that comes straight straight from the heart. So it's really hard for me to be like, well, it's that time again. Every single day at the same exact time, I'm singing the same exact song in the same exact way in the same exact clothes. Is like kind of went against everything that I realized I had been doing my entire life.

[23:12] Cheeyang Un: Right.

[23:13] Kuhoo Verma: So I I was very much someone that was like, I'm not singing unless I feel like it.

[23:17] Cheeyang Un: Oh, so interesting.

[23:18] Kuhoo Verma: But then this is like a theater. Theater is like consistency. You want to be able to do eight shows a week the same way, hopefully.

[23:26] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[23:26] Kuhoo Verma: You know, and of course you can discover things as you go along the way. But but ideally, you're supposed to deliver the same product. Totally. Every single time you do it.

[23:35] Cheeyang Un: Oh boy, it was probably one of the hardest things I've ever had to do ever. Um, until much later.

[23:41] Kuhoo Verma: Until much later. We'll still we'll still talk about. But yeah. So first regional theater experience, Berkeley, where is Berkeley Rapids located in California.

[23:49] Cheeyang Un: Yes, yes, yes.

[23:49] Kuhoo Verma: And um, they have a great program there for cultivating new works. So that was part of like a new work um programming, right?

[23:57] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, yeah. I think Ain't Too Proud was also with us at the same time.

[24:00] Cheeyang Un: Wow.

[24:01] Kuhoo Verma: They were running at the same time that we were. And so it's great to see them like flourishing right now and being on Broadway and like having such a great time. They really deserve it.

[24:08] Cheeyang Un: Yeah, absolutely.

[24:09] Kuhoo Verma: And the whole team, like, talk about the big cast. You said there were 30, about 30 Indian people.

[24:14] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, I mean, throughout the workshops, you know, I was meeting so many of them, but I think like by the end, I mean it was a while ago, so forgive me, and I have a terrible memory. But um, I think there was a lot of double casting and stuff. So by the end, there were we probably only had like 10 or 15 people in the past.

[24:31] Cheeyang Un: That's still a big cast.

[24:32] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was like it was very much wanting to invoke like the big Indian raucous family liveliness and color like color. And so yeah, we had a lot of a lot of people, a lot of family people.

[24:44] Cheeyang Un: And how did you how did you learn how to do eight shows a week?

[24:48] Kuhoo Verma: I was so I was also the youngest person there. You know, the character was like 25, 26 years old, but like I was a fresh 20, and I was the only one that was like fully under eight. Like by the time we went to Berkeley Rap, I was first cast when I was like 18, 19, but like I was like a ripe 20 at Berkeley. And so a lot of it was just like asking stupid questions and asking the people around me the dumbest, dumbest, dumbest things. And it really helped that they were Indian because I felt just like a fundamental understanding of how to communicate with them. And I I honestly at that time in my life, and I still right now get very intimidated by white people in power. Doesn't matter, male, female, non-binary, doesn't matter.

I I definitely feel a little trepidation when it comes to communicating with them and asking them questions. And you know, even though I'm a very strong person and I'm a very professional person, so at that point in my life, it really helped that I could be like, we all understand each other, we all understand our backgrounds, we get where we come from. There are little language things that soften us to each other, you know, like I can throw in one word and we're already like on the right foot, you know, because we just have that understanding. And so that was really nice. So I've leaned on them a lot, a lot, a lot to get through the eight shows.

[26:05] Cheeyang Un: Did any of them take you like kind of under their wing and be like, all right, I am your mentor now, and we're in it together?

[26:12] Kuhoo Verma: Fully. I mean, m a lot of them did, to be honest with you, but one person in particular, Anisha Nagarajan did, and she was the other female lead with me. And um, there were several female leads, but she was one of them.

[26:24] Kuhoo Verma: And she's about about 10 years older than me, and her career was kind of something that when I heard about, I was like, that's me. You know, um, and I wasn't really aware of her that much. I had seen her on TV like a couple years ago and outsourced, but other than that, I didn't really, I wasn't very aware of her. But she booked um Bombay Dreams when she was about my age when she was 20. Wow. And so she was like, Yeah, like went in for an audition and like booked the lead, and then now like now here I am. And I was like, fuck, that's me. Like, I'm 20, and I just did that. Like, I just booked a show. And you know, like I was so intrigued by her. And so yeah, I asked her a lot of questions, and she fully like guided me through a lot of hard emotional things and throughout that show. And yeah, I was kind of like my older sister. Amazing. And I'm I'm the older sister in my family, so I never had that.

[27:15] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[27:16] Kuhoo Verma: So after you did Monsoon, you booked your first movie.

[27:22] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, well, that was kind of during Monsoon, actually.

[27:22] Cheeyang Un: During Monsoon?

[27:26] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah.

[27:27] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah. So if if you'll if you'll give me the space to talk about it, it's actually kind of a weird, funny story. So basically, I did the first workshop and I wasn't fully attached to the show by then, because it was just a first workshop, and you know, people get replaced all the time. So by the end of the first workshop, the director was like very much like, We'll see you at the second workshop. We love you, we love you, we love you. So I was like, okay, I'm going forward with it. But then casting called me and they were like, We're so sorry, they're going in a different direction, but we love you so much that we want to give you this audition. And so then they gave me my second audition of my career, which was for The Big Sick.

And so I went in, and then I just like didn't hear back for a while. And then the Monsoon people actually called me, and they were like, so it's not working out with this other person. And so we need you to come in during the second workshop. It was the third day of the second workshop, and they were like, we need you to come in and just do it. So I ended up going back to Monsoon, and then I got the call from The Big Sick, and I booked that too. So I ended up kind of getting the best of both worlds.

[28:30] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[28:30] Kuhoo Verma: Because I got to do Monsoon and I got to do The Big Sick, both of them. And so it's so weird and serendipitous, but you know, if they hadn't hired that other person, which whom I know by the way, and she's fucking amazing and she's incredible. I love her, I respect her so much. If they wouldn't have cast her first, then like you wouldn't have gotten the audition.

[28:47] Cheeyang Un: I wouldn't have gotten the audition.

[28:48] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, I wouldn't have been doing The Big Sick, which is awesome.

[28:50] Cheeyang Un: Yeah. Talk about time on set and and your experience there.

[28:53] Kuhoo Verma: Oh, woof. I mean, so much of my life now has been like, I don't like without training or anything, I just like go in and I do it, and I have my experience, and I like quote unquote fail miserably, and then I learn from it.

[29:07] Cheeyang Un: That's the best way to learn though.

[29:08] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, honestly. Fully. So a lot of it has been that of just like trying to hang on and like trying to like do the best work I can while being scared shitless. Um, and so that's what Monsoon was, and that is surely what The Big Sick was for me. Um, I had never had any camera work, not even like I wasn't even one of the people that like had the like video cameras and like shot funny videos with my friends. Like I wasn't even that kid, you know. So I had never been in front of a camera before ever in my life. And suddenly I was just like sitting across like Kumail Nanjiani and like Anupam Kher and like all these people that I respect so much. Um it was a very short shooting day, it was like 13 hours, 14 hours.

Now, for me, I'm saying short now because I understand a little bit more how that works, but at the time I was like, I have one or two scenes. Why is it taking so long? I didn't understand at all. Especially because it's so much time of it is just sitting around doing nothing.

[30:06] Cheeyang Un: Absolutely.

[30:06] Kuhoo Verma: Oh my god. I was like, I understand why people do cocaine. I was like, I get why actors do cocaine now. I totally understand. It's so hard to shut off the energy and then be like, I'm ready to perform for you like a monkey. Like, it's so awful. I'm like, if you ever do cocaine, I will be there to stop you.

[30:26] Cheeyang Un: My God, but I get it, but I get it.

[30:29] Kuhoo Verma: I'm like, how else are you gonna fucking do this? You know, I get it, it's actors have it hard, man. Like, yeah, it was it's so an opposite experience of what you expect.

[30:39] Cheeyang Un: Theater.

[30:40] Kuhoo Verma: Of what I expected, but also of theater. It's completely different. And I was like, oh, I need practice if I'm gonna do this.

[30:46] Cheeyang Un: Yeah, yeah, 100%.

[30:47] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah. And you did. You keep you kept going. You've been shooting a bunch of web series.

[30:51] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah. A lot for the experience mostly, I still don't know like how I feel about it.

[30:55] Cheeyang Un: Okay.

[30:56] Kuhoo Verma: Um You're young. You'll figure it out.

[30:57] Cheeyang Un: Yeah, yeah. I'm just gonna keep trying things until I settle somewhere. You know? I'm not someone to say no to many things, and so I just keep saying yes and find myself in situations that I don't know anything about. I mean, talking about situations you know nothing about. Let's talk about your latest expedition into I mean, I don't think you that's a wrong phrase. I was like latest expedition into a cappella, but I was like, that's not true.

[31:21] Kuhoo Verma: You know things about a cappella.

[31:22] Kuhoo Verma: I yeah. I did a cappella in college, you know, but this is a completely different behemoth. So I was in a show called Octet by Dave Malloy at Signature Theater, and we had a nice chunk of r uh run, which was awesome. A lot of a lot of fan pages have been made about it already. People love it. It's beautiful. You're you were gorgeous in it, and the cast was phenomenal. The music is phenomenal. To be able to experience that in New York theater, it's like, oh, theater can do this. You know, like you always expect theater to be a certain way. And then you go into a space and like not you truly not expecting anything. Like you know, I'm like, okay, it's gonna be a Dave Malloy show. Like that's that's all I'm walking in for. And and I personally am truly blown away because to make a cappella active in theater. Yeah. It's so hard.

[32:14] Cheeyang Un: It's so hard.

[32:16] Kuhoo Verma: I was worried about that. And I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. Because we have had shows before. We will not name names, and we understand. It's tough. It's it's a really, really tough medium to work with. And when I first got the script for it, I was reading some of the things and I was like, this is gonna be the most whack ass. And somehow this genius, genius team has made it into a weird genre of its own.

[32:43] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[32:44] Kuhoo Verma: You know. And I think it just comes from a deep respect for the characters and a deep respect of everything that is that has to do with humanity. Um, you know, we didn't hear any of the conversations about money, nor did we care. You know, so it's it was really one of the least commercial experiences that I've ever had, even though we, you know, made presumably made a lot of money for Signature Theater. Um talk about working with Dave Malloy, working with Annie, working with the incredible Octet with your two wonder studies. Let's talk about that process.

[33:16] Cheeyang Un: Great.

[33:18] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, I mean kind of related. Because I was, I mean, I felt like I could do my work as an actor without worrying about why am I really here? Am I a diversity casting? Like, am I this? Am I that? I didn't have to worry about any of that stuff because it was so clear, like the only thing that I had to worry about my character was who she was, and that's it. So for the first time I felt like a white actor. You know, I felt like so I was I could focus on the art and just the art, and Dave and Annie were so helpful in that, you know. Annie held my hand, the Annie Tip, the director, she's fully a genius. And she held my hand throughout like finding the really, really difficult stuff about this person.

My character is someone that has so much love and feels so much, but just has kind of a barrier in front of her and can't really let seep out, you know, and has a lot of social anxiety, a lot of a lot of social communication issues. And so to play someone that has to be active and has so many feelings, but you can see that she's struggling to communicate those things was something that is opposite of who I am as a person and opposite of like what I really try to do when I'm communicating with people. And so it was a really surreal experience, and I really felt like I was transforming every night.

[34:33] Cheeyang Un: That's incredible. How many performances do you guys do?

[34:36] Kuhoo Verma: I think I don't want to get this wrong, but I think it was about 50.

[34:39] Cheeyang Un: That's a lot.

[34:39] Kuhoo Verma: That's a lot to like do it every single night. I think it was was it more than that? It might have been more. I mean, so we opened, we opened technically April 30th was the beginning of previews. And then you closed in June, end of June.

[34:52] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, June J uh June 30th. So that's fully two months. I mean, two months is like eight shows a week, eight weeks. I mean, do your math. That's already Asian 64.

[35:03] Cheeyang Un: Huh?

[35:03] Kuhoo Verma: I will edit it out of a 50.

[35:08] Cheeyang Un: Should I pull my calculator out? This is so my parents are gonna hear this and they're gonna be like, what did you do?

[35:13] Kuhoo Verma: It's like we should not have let you go to school for this. Um is it? Yeah times eight. Yeah, you're right. 64. Yeah, I was like, okay, come on, I can do mental math. Yeah.

[35:24] Cheeyang Un: 64.

[35:25] Kuhoo Verma: Okay, so yeah, like that's a lot of shows. That's more I think it's more than 84 64 because you did you said you opened in April.

[35:32] Kuhoo Verma: April 30th?

[35:32] Cheeyang Un: April 30th.

[35:33] Kuhoo Verma: Okay, then yes. Yeah, 64. Eight weeks, eight weeks. Yeah. I mean, you we did runs and that kind of stuff, you know, beforehand, but I mean, and I didn't find that I actually clicked into the character until previews.

[35:45] Kuhoo Verma: Wow. You know, I didn't actually get into it until like well into previews. I don't know what it was, but some like a switch just kind of went off in my head, and I was like, oh, I understand who she is. Um and I actually think it was talking to people after Octet. There were there were my character's name was Velma, and there were there were Velmas that were coming up after coming up to me afterwards and were like, hey, thank you so much, like thank you for doing this. Um I really connected to your character a lot, and not being able to even look me in the eye, but feeling such such strong emotions and such strong passion for what they saw, but just not being able to really communicate it to me. And so I think that's when it connected. I was like, oh, these are the people I'm doing it for. Right. You know.

[36:29] Kuhoo Verma: So um, yeah, I mean, it was yeah, it was just such a respectful experience. And for me, I made a pact with myself after Monsoon Wedding, not because of Monsoon Wedding, but just in general, I could see in another world how my life would go and how my career would go. So I made a pact with myself that it's gonna be risky and it might blow up my face, but in the next five years, I will not be doing Indian specific parts anymore.

[36:54] Cheeyang Un: Oh no.

[36:55] Kuhoo Verma: So then you won't want to do my show anymore.

[36:58] Cheeyang Un: Well, we're not in year five yet. So we have we have time.

[37:01] Kuhoo Verma: Great. But I was like, yeah, five years from now, like that's it. We're done. Right. Um I mean, rules are meant to be broken. And so I made that rule to be broken, but I made it because I think it's really important to promise to myself that I don't get stuck in the it would be really easy for me to make money by just accepting those roles.

[37:23] Cheeyang Un: Oh, 100%.

[37:24] Kuhoo Verma: I 100% know what you're talking about. Fulfilling that niche. I told my agent I was like, don't sign me up for Miss Saigon, don't sign me up for King and I. Don't don't there are people that can do that. And I personally, as a human being, I don't want to. Only because those are true. Oh actually, truly, my my reason for for that is like these are not my stories. These are not my stories. Like I am not Thai, I am not um Vietnamese. These are not stories that resonate with me as a being. And so that's why I don't want to do it. It doesn't mean that I don't want to do any Chinese roles, I don't want to do any Asian roles ever. Yeah. But on the broad spectrum, it's that these stories do not resonate with my being.

So don't put me in these stories. Yeah. And I'm not trying to be like, you know, like a stick up in my at my nose on my ass, you know, like being like, oh, I'm too good for this. It's not that. But it's like you have such a limited time on earth, and if you're gonna spend time developing something, you wanna feel like you are in control and that you'll you are a piece of this. You're a piece of this creation.

[38:24] Cheeyang Un: Totally.

[38:25] Kuhoo Verma: Um, not everybody feels that need, but I n I I think that that kind of like resonates with you.

[38:31] Cheeyang Un: I hope I hope.

[38:32] Kuhoo Verma: Totally. Totally. It's like I'm not gonna tell the story just because I can, and you know, just because it's easy money and whatever, like, you know, and I understand that that's also a very privileged thing to be able to say.

[38:44] Cheeyang Un: Oh, a hundred percent.

[38:45] Kuhoo Verma: And I get that. But I'm like, if I if I make that promise to myself, then the work will come.

[38:45] Kuhoo Verma: But I do, if I do have that privilege, I have a responsibility to every single person that comes after me and every single person alongside me right now.

[38:53] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah, you know, and people like Anisha and like, you know, the person that I was talking about before, and other people who didn't have that fucking option when they were growing up.

[39:02] Kuhoo Verma: Like they just had to like, if they wanted to be an actor, they had to be with withheld to the Priyas and the puojas and the, you know, all and the Rajas and like all those people.

[39:12] Kuhoo Verma: You know, and so for me, you know, it's a promise to myself that I'm gonna see myself as an actor, you know, and not as someone that is going to allow herself to be branded in a certain way.

[39:24] Kuhoo Verma: I'm not gonna put myself in that box and it's gonna be hard and it's a risk.

[39:27] Kuhoo Verma: And I might not get work for a very long time.

[39:30] Kuhoo Verma: Oh, I'm not worried about that at all, girl.

[39:32] Kuhoo Verma: But you know what.

[39:33] Kuhoo Verma: I'm not either.

[39:38] Kuhoo Verma: Yeah. It'll come. Yeah. It always has and always will. Talk a little bit about your Secret Garden workshop experience and my love of my life, who, well, she doesn't know yet, but like Shayna Taub's Suffragists. Talk about that.

[39:52] Cheeyang Un: Okay.

[39:53] Kuhoo Verma: I am absolutely in love with Shayna Taub. Okay, and that is not a secret. This is a secret. I'm not declaring, declaring this love. And she'd be like, get this restraining order right now. Who is this person? I don't know him. I love her. I've done a lot of shows with her. I think a lot of my community here at New York would not have happened if it were not for her. You know, she has brought me into a group of people that are Broadway, you know, Broadway quality performers that have the kindness and the awareness of the world that also make them activists and that also make them just kind, humble people. And to have both of those things in so many people in this community is like absolutely a blessing.

[40:40] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[40:41] Kuhoo Verma: You know, so we're doing another workshop with Suffragists very soon, and hopefully the public will be putting it up soon, but you know, who knows? But in The Suffragists, um, in her show, that's another example of, you know, in Octet, I played someone that was just a person and it had no kind of racial connotations whatsoever. And in Suffragists, I feel the same exact way. You know, I have the liberty to be able to play several different characters um in that show, and none of them have any kind of, you know, I have no responsibility to share my own life in them. I can just have them be vehicles of art and be vehicles of storytelling.

[41:18] Cheeyang Un: And Secret Garden is the same way?

[41:20] Kuhoo Verma: Secret Garden is very different. It was really lovely. It was a really great experience and a lot of amazing people, but you know, I'm playing Aya in it, and so I am playing someone that is very specifically Indian, but also one of two Indian people in the entire show. You know, and the particular cast in workshops very is probably gonna be very different than when we eventually put it up, but um, you know, they were very it was a very quote unquote um non-racist casting, which was awesome. It was only like less than half of the people were white, and so that's really great. And all of them were like just amazing, amazing people and amazing actors. Um, you know, but I did play someone that was Indian, and so I definitely did feel a responsibility and obligation to be like, okay, some of this writing is a little dated from the last time that Secret Garden existed, so I think that we should make some tweaks. And I definitely did speak up on a lot of those things.

[42:13] Cheeyang Un: Do you feel empowered to speak up because of the current climate of our industry? Or do you think that's like or do you do you see that as a burden?

[42:18] Kuhoo Verma: Do you see that as it's a little bit of both, but the fact of the matter is, like, if conversations weren't already being had, then we wouldn't know that it's an option. You know, and so everything is cause and effect. And you know, because I have the words to be able to have conversations like this all the time is why I felt like I was eloquent enough to talk to the creative team about some of the issues. Um, and they were very receptive to everything, and you know, I and I did feel empowered in that room to do my job, but it is certainly still different because I am playing an Indian person. And you know, especially in the context of that show, it's such a classic show. And also it was in a time when the British were occupying India. And you know, like even though it's the setting is in India, we are the servants and we are working for them. And so that's something that we it is not changeable, you know. That is part of history.

[43:16] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[43:16] Kuhoo Verma: And so, and that's also not the focus of the show. And so, you know, it's not my job to change that. It's not my job to feel empowered to suddenly be a very different kind of Aya. You know, I need to honor the script and need to do what I need to do. But I can focus on the really important things of the show, which is the protagonist, the person who makes all the change, is a young girl. She is the person that has all of the change, which is already different than so many of the shows that are, you know, commercially on Broadway right now.

[43:49] Cheeyang Un: That's true.

[43:49] Kuhoo Verma: And so for me, that's a win. And for me, if I can help in telling that story, that a little girl will girl with foresight of like the power of spirituality, the power of nature, and the power of Eastern ideals. You know, these things that just now Western people are finally getting their heads around, that nature is something that should be valued. That our bodies are something that should be valued. That you don't have to take Tylenol every five minutes. You know what I mean? Things like that. You know, if if you we can, you know, expound upon that in this show, then like that's already win for me.

[44:24] Cheeyang Un: Yeah.

[44:25] Kuhoo Verma: So before we wrap this up, I have three a few questions. But a few questions for you. And they might be a little bit of like a whammy.

[44:36] Cheeyang Un: Okay, okay so if you could tell yourself, a younger self something, what would you tell? What would you say to little Kuhoo Verma?

[44:46] Kuhoo Verma: I mean, you're so young, so it's like I mean, you're a little Kuhoo Verma right now still, but um, what would you give, what advice would you give yourself growing up looking back right now? I've thought about this a lot, and I've always had trouble with the answer. And I think that's part of why I think I need to grow up a little bit more to be able to tell it. But right now in my life, I think it would be nothing matters but the truth. You know, I spent so much time hiding, and I spent so much time trying to cover up how who I was and what I cared about, just in an in a an attempt to confuse people about who I was, and in an attempt to rise to a place that where I thought I could get respect, you know. But you don't get respect by you don't get respect by dishonoring your truth and by chasing respect. You know, you make your own place by honoring your truth. And so I think I'll have to tell her that. Nothing matters but the truth.

[46:01] Cheeyang Un: I want to say, like, I really love you because there's an energy about you that is so pure. I don't I don't know if people tell you this, but there is just like an openness to your being and your honesty. And I've seen you like outside of our our working together, like I've seen you do so much that just represents your being. And I I sometimes I don't know how to like explain that, you know. I I'm a person who who is attracted to energies, and I just remember so clearly that night at the Duplex when you were doing your solo show and you were singing I Am Light, and that was like a magical moment. I mean, I never knew the song, and I I always understood that concept, but when you were communicating it, I can tell you that the entire room felt it that that is you, you know, and and you are that embodiment of that. And that's beautiful, and you're only 22. It's like, what the fuck? It's like beautiful.

[47:08] Kuhoo Verma: Thank you.

[47:09] Cheeyang Un: Yeah. So um, oh fuck. I'm like, I'm getting cheery, yeah, I'm getting curious. We're both sitting here just like kind of crying.

[47:19] Kuhoo Verma: Oh my god.

[47:20] Cheeyang Un: Um, one last question would be Is there anything that you would like to ask me about yourself, about the world, about my secrets, anything.

[47:33] Kuhoo Verma: You're s what a tempting, delicious offer you have just given me. You get one. Just one.

[47:40] Cheeyang Un: Just one.

[47:42] Kuhoo Verma: Oh wow. Um I mean, to be honest, I've always been very curious about you. Still am and always will be. Which is why I think we make a great pair. And I think if you could change one thing, and I hate this question already, because I don't regret anything, and you shouldn't change anything. But if you could change one thing that you have done in your childhood regarding yourself, regarding how you saw yourself, anything, what would it be?

[48:12] Cheeyang Un: Oh my god. I was always afraid to fail. I think right now I'm still very afraid to fail. And I think every single part of my insecurity comes from that notion. Like I'm so scared of being fat. Like I, agent standards, I'm so fucking fat, right? Like, just like, you know, you know what I mean.

[48:34] Kuhoo Verma: I know what you mean.

[48:36] Cheeyang Un: And I'm very feminine, um, in my own way. And I don't even know how to f uh answer that question. If I could change what I want to change every part of myself, honestly, if I could, if I had the power, but I've come to I am at a point in my life where I respect all those flaws that I have that I that I deem as flaws, you know, that personally I deem as flaws, but they're not. They are who I am. They are they are what makes me who I am. They're literally every single part of me. I can I can I can give you so many specific things. But I think they all stem from the idea of like being afraid to fail because I'm the only child in my family, and I I feel that this is a huge burden of like delivering success, whatever that means.

I don't I I truly don't know. But that that has to do with like how I look, how I behave, how I treat people, the things I do, all of that, and that all stems from like a fear of fa I don't think I've even like talked about this. I never really thought about this. Stems from this like idea that I'm so afraid of failing that to that question, it's like I want if I if I could change one thing about myself, I want to be not afraid to fail as a kid. Because every single time I approach anything that I do throughout my entire life so far, I've always come from the the head space of like if I'm gonna fail at this, I'm gonna do it. But then that's such an irony and so stupid because I'm doing the arts. There's no guarantee here you can fail. And that's this is just so we it's just like this. I don't know if that makes any sense. That's a terrible answer.

[50:35] Kuhoo Verma: It makes sense.

[50:36] Cheeyang Un: It's not a terrible answer at all. It makes sense. What I'm I'm not gonna say this to, I'm not trying to fix anything. There's nothing to be fixed. There's nothing wrong. You know, but everything that you do, and everything that you are, and everything that I've experienced from you, and all of the gifts that you've given me from when I first met you have happened because of all of the quote unquote flaws, right? That you keep referring to. The way that you hug and the way that you write melodies, and the way that you communicate with people, and the way that you love people and the way that you love yourself. All of that is a revolution. And all of that is in protest of what you, what I, what all of us have been like trying to understand what success is, you know.

And if it's failure that you're afraid of, and if it's success that the thing you want, then like you're gonna find such specific and unique kind of success, which is so much more intriguing and so much more magical and universal than whatever it is that you thought success would be, you know, because it doesn't feel good to have the success that you thought you always wanted. Why live? If you're gonna get exactly what you wanted. I mean, that's not life. And that's not magic. You know, I think the fun really starts when you get something that you didn't expect.

[52:19] Cheeyang Un: Did you like that episode of East Side Story? If you did, follow us on Instagram at East Side Story Pod and at Cheeyang Music. Go on to Apple Podcasts, rate us, review us, and don't forget to subscribe. Or if you are a Spotify user, you can also click the follow button. Even better, you can tell someone about the podcast. And the best part, they don't even have to be Asian. Thank you so much for your support, and I'll see you next week.