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[0:01] Sheila Atim MBE: My name is Sheila Atim, and you're listening to Eleven, the Official Theatre Podcast.

[0:16] William J Connolly: Hello and welcome to Eleven, the official theatre podcast that brings the biggest stars and creatives together in one place to discuss life in the arts. Now she's the Olivier award-winning star of stage and the big screen that's proudly leading the charge as the West End begins its reopening. She's joining an all-star group of famous faces rotating in rep as the Donmar Warehouse's artistic director, Michael Longhurst, returns to direct his West End and Broadway hit Constellations. Nick Payne's beautiful and heartbreaking romance includes the likes of Peter Capaldi, Zoe Wanamaker, Amari Douglas, Russell Tovey, Anna Maxwell, and well, this person among many of its stars. But this is not the only place you'll have seen her on stage as she has stage credits including Shakespeare's Globe, in the West End, the National Theatre, the Donmar Warehouse, the Old Vic, and throughout the UK.

Plus, she's also on Amazon, the big screen and cast albums, music, recordings, I think you get it. It's a pretty big understatement to say she's one of the finest we have currently leading the charge in the world of performing. And of course, she is probably most known for her unreal and frankly heartbreaking performance in the original production of Girl from the North Country. I'm still not over it, and I don't think I ever will be. Oh, and she's also been made an MBE for services to the world of drama. So here, direct from backstage in an actual theatre in the actual West End. It's time to discuss the big reopening and return of live theatre. Why starring in Constellations was a challenge she simply couldn't turn down.

Why she's hopeful a new and more inclusive West End is now upon us, working at some of the most beloved venues that I just mentioned, including Shakespeare's Globe, playing opposite Mark Rylance, and the lesson she learnt from their intense stage interactions. Why winning an Olivier and being awarded her MBE isn't everything, but it's pretty special still, even today, how she devised and workshopped her now signature number in Girl from the North Country. Plus why she's proudly embracing a goddess status that I donned her with during this conversation, rather proudly. That's Goddess MBE to you and I is a dream guest incoming as superstar Sheila Atim, MBE, is here now on this, the next episode of Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

To meet with current restrictions and to stop the possible spread of COVID-19, Sheila and I connected for this conversation digitally. So please forgive any brief moments while we wait for the internet to catch up. Enjoy.

[2:53] William J Connolly: So here we go. Please help me welcome to this, the next episode of Eleven. It's Goddess and Olivier Winner, Sheila Atim, MBE. The MBE is the important bit. Are you there? How are you?

[3:02] Sheila Atim MBE: How are you? I like Goddess. That was nice. We could put Goddess in all the way through. It seems very fitting because I am, as I was just saying to you, completely obsessed with you. So you are a goddess to me, so which I'll tell you more about in a second. But thank you so much for being here. It's such a pleasure to see you after what's been. Well, it's been a pretty rough sort of year. So to be able to be talking about theatre coming back just feels like an honour and a privilege. And I can imagine for you, it's an honour and a privilege to be at the centre of it and actually being able to see audiences again.

[3:31] Sheila Atim MBE: You know, theatre is back. I know there've been a few theatrical performances spread out through the course of the last year and things going up and then having to close and, you know, mainly at the National Theatre and places, but it's really nice to be a part of the kind of grand reopening, as it were, the big wave where most theatres are finding a way to open at, you know, 50% capacity. It was really special to be a part of that because the industry, I mean the whole world, but the industry really went through it over the past 18 months. It's really been going through it, and so it's nice, it feels like a big celebration, you know, of what we do, and yeah, it's just like a reminder that what we have chosen as careers is really special. And yeah, I'm so made up to be a part of it.

[4:18] William J Connolly: So performance number one, just that moment before you walk on stage, did you sort of have to take a beat in a moment and go, it's really happening?

[4:24] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, but mainly because the play's really hard. So it was more about like, oh my god, we're doing it now in front of people. Which you get with pretty much every show, but it was intensified with this one. You know, it's a two-hander, it's a brilliant play, but it's complex, you know, for an actor to have to grapple with, it's technically quite complex. So it did feel like rehearsal just completely disappeared. And suddenly we were doing it for real people, for real people who have paid money, so we'd better be good at it. So it was more to do with that. But then what was really nice was hearing the audience reactions. In any rehearsal process, there is a tendency to forget that there's gonna be a group of people who are watching it the other side and who are gonna be reacting and responding.

And this play is also very funny, so there's a lot of back and forth between the audience and the cast. But particularly after such a long time of having not done it, that feeling is intensified where you can just get so in your head and you forget that it is actually a dialogue between you, the cast, and all these, you know, hundreds of other people, however many other people there are watching you. So that was really nice. I think once we got that first show out of the way, it was still, you know, still a lot of work to do, but it was a really nice feeling to get it done.

[5:46] William J Connolly: Absolutely. I should say that the play is called Constellations, it's live in the West End, and it's part of this really sort of refreshing series, and actually it seems completely terrifying to schedule. So whoever's managed to do this, like probably had a lot of sleepless nights because there are multiple different casts playing the same roles, but switching it up during different weeks and different schedules, which means that people get to see a variety of different people. I know a heck of a lot of people are coming to see literally every cast. I mean, to be fair, how are you supposed to pick? I mean, it's literally impossible. It's the crème de la crème. And for you, just does this idea and this concept, if that's the right way to describe it, does that make it interesting for you to be part of an ensemble piece while also then being part of a group of people and obviously you having to sort of obviously you have to do it essentially at the end of the day, and it's down to you. But does just sort of mixing up make it exciting and interesting for you as a creative?

[6:33] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, I think it's exciting because even though I'm not necessarily interacting with the others in that very direct way, it's nice to be a part of a project that is attempting to do something ambitious, and there's a lot of chat about representation, you know, in artistic industries, and so it's nice to see a theatre not just throwing open its doors, well, the Vaudeville's doors, with, you know, something that's a show, but it's also trying to do it with something that is trying to say something, trying to address the things that we've all learned over the last year and a half. You know, there's been a that particular conversation I think was really intensified because of the events of last year and because we were all stuck in our houses and had nothing else to think about.

Yeah, I feel it's nice to kind of have it going on around me, if that makes sense, even though I'm not necessarily acting with Russell Tovey or acting with Chris O'Dowd. I'm only acting with Ivana Jeremiah, but I have seen Peter and Zoe, Peter Capaldi and Zoe Wanamaker, sort of in passing. We always wave to each other, and yeah, it's nice to know that it's happening, and it's also nice to be able to tackle this play, which has historically only been done by white people and usually middle-class white people of a certain age. I think that I think the casts have been more or less in their 30s, or at least the characters have been aimed to be in their 30s. And I am 30, but it's different being a black woman in her 30s. Yeah, that part of it is interesting and was a big part of the draw for doing this job.

[8:11] William J Connolly: And it's so nice, you not sort of jump in too heavy to start with, but it's nice as you say, to see that hopefully the discussions, the very important discussions that have happened around racial equality, but also within queerness within the roles of women and putting that everybody sort of giving everybody a seat at the table. It is nice that one of the first shows that comes back, sort of the first half of the reopening, does try and aim to answer or at least give some answers to that. That feels, I think I'm I think it'd be fair in saying I feel hopeful about that.

[8:38] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, well, I think what's really great about it is that, I mean there is a kind of producing model, it's a new producing model as well, from what I understand. So, you know, the theatre itself, the Vaudeville Theatre, is running more than eight shows a week in order to accommodate us all in rep and to be able to generate enough revenue for this to be a sort of an actual viable production or project. But it's really nice to know that one of the first things that's come back, as I said earlier, is being ambitious in that way. I think people were really worried that there was going to be sort of trepidation or caution or this kind of seeping in of a safety or a fear around what should be programmed next in a time when theatres were financially struggling or at least had taken quite a big hit, you know.

So it's nice to know that artistic directors and creators still want to be bold and they actually do want to incorporate some new ideas and things that, like you said, have addressed the conversations that we've been having over the last year and a half, and things that may from the outside appear risky, you know, in terms of as opposed to going for something that's a sure bet. You know, there are a lot of theatres who are putting on new writing as well, which is really great to see in their first season. So, yeah, I'm really glad about that because I think that was one of the main things everyone was like, oh no, we're gonna be doomed to like same old productions of stuff that no one necessarily wants to see again and again, but we're doing it because we feel like we have to. And people are actively resisting that.

[10:16] William J Connolly: Does it feel, it's sort of the biggest, most generic question ever, but does it feel different post-COVID? Is there a different sense in terms of the stories we're telling, but also the way in which we're interacting with each other as human beings?

[10:27] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, I think human connection is, there are so many ways that you can connect with people, right? And for a lot of people, theatre is one of those, whether it's connecting, feeling like you're connecting with the actors on stage because they're telling you this story, or you're connecting with the audience around you because you're all laughing together at the same thing, or you're connecting with a person who sells you an ice cream in the interval, or whatever it is, you know. I can really feel people savouring that experience.

[10:52] William J Connolly: Do you remember when you first were sort of the opportunity to be part of this show was sort of presented to you? Do you remember what it was particularly? Was it perhaps the material? Was it an opportunity that you had before to see the show? Do you remember sort of what it was that made you go, actually, this is something that I'd like to be part of at this point in my life?

[11:08] Sheila Atim MBE: Well, yeah, I never got to see the original production or any of the ones that, you know, were on subsequently. And I've always kept hearing about this play, Constellations. And also I've loved science, it just made a lot of sense to me to do it. And, you know, my schedule was clear, and I was like, yeah, this just feels really great. And it was a two-hander, and it felt like something that I could really dig deep into and have a lot of fun with, and it was nice to be able to jump straight back into something that was very muscular, you know. I've been doing bits of filming, not for the whole lockdown period, but sort of from November onwards, I had a few bits here and there, and filming's a very different experience, and it can be quite isolated at times because you just kind of come in for your bit and then you disappear, and that's fine, but, you know, in terms of having something to really sort of tear apart and chew up, I hadn't had that really for a while. So it just kind of presented itself and it was just kind of great and perfect. And then I read it and thought it was hilarious, and I was like, yeah, why not?

[12:15] William J Connolly: You mentioned about the sort of different approaches and positions that you put yourself in as a creative because you are also a writer and a composer as well, which is one of the things that I actually didn't know about you, which I thought was just completely fascinating, and I know that it links to a musical and you obviously co-writing with that as well, which I believe is your professional stage debut.

[12:33] Sheila Atim MBE: Am I right in saying that? Yeah, so this this is not quite true, but for some reason on Wikipedia it says that I also wrote part of the musical The Lightning Child. I didn't. But I have I have written music with Che Walker who wrote The Lightning Child on other projects and some of his short films and I wrote the music for a production of Doubt, a parable that he did at the Southern Playhouse. Um and I wrote the music for Time is Love, which was a show that we did at Frimber Theatre, and then I also wrote the music for the songs for a play that I wrote that I took to Edinburgh called Angus. So yeah, and it's it's funny, I haven't like I when lockdown came, I didn't sort of dig into the composing.

I was more practicing my instruments because I realised it was just something that I hadn't done for ages to just play without it being a sort of goal-oriented practice. Um but I did do some writing, you know, trying to write some things for screen and a few things for theatre. Um so yeah, it's kind of all circulating in this big stewpot of stuff. Um and I think again the one thing that the pandemic really taught me, which is something that I've always kind of believed and tried to do throughout my life and career, but even more so when the pandemic came around was just gotta just gotta get on it, really. Just gotta get on it and just I think the whole thing of being present, you know, and okay, right now constellations has landed on my door.

It's great. There's no reason to shy away from it. Let's do it, you know. And then opportunities keep popping up, you know, to write a poem here or to write a piece of music there, and yeah, I'm just trying to keep all of those plates spinning in a way that complement each other. Um still figuring it out. I don't know if I'm more shocked at the fact that Wikipedia is wrong or that I took that information from a very reputable theatre site who's clearly taken it from Wikipedia. So I think a practice code. That's what I'm saying, man. You've got to be careful with Wikipedia. I remember what I used to use Wikipedia for my homework. You just you've got to take it with a pinch of salt. But I think that I think, yeah, I think there's probably some wires crossed because as I said, I have worked with Che in a musical capacity many times, and I think there's probably just some wires getting crossed there.

[15:10] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, I mean it's it's also really nice, you know, working with Che, or whenever you find a collaborator that you feel like you can, you know, come back to again and again and again because you just sort of grow together, or at least I really feel like I've grown as a composer, having worked with him. Um, and he's somebody who gives people a lot of opportunities as well. So, you know, he's taken a chance on me and so many other young people and said, Hey, you can write this thing, why not? So it's sort of also taking that ethos that he's helped instill in me and just trying to continue that ambitious streak, I guess, is what I'm trying to do next. When you get to perform at locations like the Globe, Shakespeare's Globe Theatre, you know, the iconic signature, probably one of the most recognizable venues.

I think it's pretty fair to say in the world. Do you sort of feel spoilt? Do you sit there going, This is actually really bloody cool? Yeah, it is cool. It is cool. I mean, you know, I try, I try really hard not to give certain things too much reverence over others because it's all it's all important, you know, and it's all um and everything's just different. Everything's just different. But I think that's what I love about it, being able to work in different mediums and different buildings with different companies on different projects, um, and play some really, really different roles as well. I think that's one thing I've been really lucky with so far is that I've just been able to do quite a wide range of stuff, work with a wide range of um creatives at a range of places.

Um, and that's the bit that's exciting to me. You know, it's not just about working at the Globe, it's about being able to experience working at the Globe, and then also being able to experience working at the National, which is down the road, but is you know, a different theatre, completely different in terms of its design and structure and you know, maybe the kinds of shows that it puts on, and then to be able to do a tour in Lincolnshire, you know, which is one of the things I did earlier in my career, and then work on some new writing and then work on some classics and then you know, work on a revival like this. That's the thing that really gets me.

[17:03] Sheila Atim MBE: And to have teachers like Mark Rylance there to be able to learn from on a one-on-one basis, I can imagine is you know, they say sort of practicality is the best way to learn stuff, but I can imagine being in that moment present with him. You so you become a I can imagine a bit of a sponge, really. Well, what was so interesting about working with Mark was that he's obviously his knowledge of Shakespeare is extensive, but also he he ran that building, right? He kind of opened that building and ran that building. So also his knowledge of the stage and the architecture as well was something that I'd never really experienced, or I guess been able to benefit from in the same way with with other buildings where the person that you're working with doesn't have that same connection to the place, and it was really important actually because the Globe is a it's a tricky beast that theatre because it's it's so like it's it's it's its own character, it's kind of its own thing, and so you need to find a way to work with it.

You're never gonna be able to step on top of it and mask it from view. It's always going to be present. You've got these two huge pillars with this kind of marble pattern on them, and then you've got this gallery, and but it's just like you know, and then of course it's a big tourist attraction as well, yeah. Um, and you've got the pit, and the way people behave as audience when they are standing in a pit as opposed to seated is very different, you know, there's a lot more interaction. So it was all these things. Um, and I had actually worked at the Globe of my first job, yeah, and it was a very different job, and that was you know, not with Mark, but just to have some of those um little nuggets of of knowledge dropped in was really useful and so helpful, and yeah, just quite a unique experience.

[18:44] Sheila Atim MBE: Did it feel like a little bit like a homecoming going back to performing there having done it previously? Well, it was interesting because I was going back to very much to do a Shakespeare, whereas the first time I'd done Che's play, The Lightning Child, which it was an adaptation of a classic, an adaptation of the Bacchae, but was not um classically the dialogue wasn't necessarily classical, it was very modern, and there were some sort of modern vignettes and stories kind of woven in, and it was this big, you know, got terrible reviews, but I it was one of the best things I'd ever done, and I had so much fun. Um, and it was this big, just sort of raucous send up of of theatre and music and sound and dance. Um, so it was like two very different things. So it was interesting to kind of come back to the Globe and go, Oh, I'm actually doing a Shakespeare now. I'm actually doing a thing that the place was set up for. Interesting. That's nice.

[19:39] Sheila Atim MBE: When I was um researching to chat with you today, not that I needed too much knowledge, because as I say, I am a massive fan of yours, but I was like, Do you know what? I always sort of set myself a challenge of to learn things about somebody that I don't know. Like, what can I sort of go? Oh, I can learn this to sort of be a teaching point for me. And I was just reading some of the reviews for Othello at The Globe, and I found this one sentence that I was like, I've got to read this to you because it made me laugh so much. And I was like, So, this is somebody writing about you. They said she unleashed a fury that blew the greatest actor of his generation off the stage. And I was like, I hope she apologised to Mark Rylance for that.

[20:15] Sheila Atim MBE: If it was in the show, it was in the show. I mean, and Emilia by that point is very angry at Iago, to be fair. He's done some pretty bad things, so I don't know. I mean, I think I think that theory might be justified, you know. Um, I mean, from where I was standing, Mark was still on the stage, so I don't know. He was he was fine, just just for the record for the listeners. Um, physically, he was okay. Yeah, yeah, I remember I remember that. It's that is a fantastic scene. That final scene. There's really not many things like it where you just get to the kind of the momentum of it for Emilia at least, the way the the realization of everything is unfolding, and the kind of the all the complexities of all the feelings that are kind of coalescing in that moment. It's it's really nice to play that scene.

[21:06] Sheila Atim MBE: I did joke at the start about you being MBE, but it is an insane, insane achievement. And I just wondered, and this might make me sound very silly, but just does it become normal people saying that part of your name, or do people not really use it in sentences? I guess how does it work? Do you know what the people who use it the most are my friends? Honestly, they like they write me like birthday cards and everything, like with MBE on the end, which I just they're just you know, they're the best. Um, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's one of those things, it's like with any other sort of accolade or award or you know, something like that, where they they mean they mean everything and nothing at the same time, and that's not to diminish any of these things, but I really do believe in um you know awards being a celebration of people and of their work, and I think that's a good thing.

I know sometimes they can come under fire by people, but I I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's good to reward and acknowledge um, you know, we do that all through our lives from when you're a kid at sports day, you know, just to celebrate people and and achievements and trying and contributions, um, you know, but at the same time, it's it's you just have to keep doing what you were doing before.

[22:20] Sheila Atim MBE: Um, and I think particularly with something like the MBE, where it's not um, I mean, uh I think somebody puts you forward for it, you know, and you don't really know anything about the process, but it it's not it's not like the Olivier, for example, where even though I was really surprised to be nominated and then to win, uh it wasn't so far outside of the realms of my sort of um awareness that I was like, oh, I will never ever be up for an MBE. Whereas for Olivier, where's the MBE like literally came out of nowhere, and it's not like, oh, you're nominated for it, it's like you've got one, do you want it? It's like, oh, uh, sure, okay, why not? So, and I think when it's something like that, you know, you got it for doing what you were doing.

You got it because you were just getting on with your work. And so you just have to continue doing that, you know, and and not suddenly change what you're doing in response to that. That doesn't make any sense because the very reason why you got it was because you were just blissfully unaware, kind of carrying on with your life and your work in the way that you wanted to.

[23:24] Sheila Atim MBE: And so I think it's really important to remember that whenever you receive any kind of accolade, is to really celebrate it for what it is, be happy, enjoy it, you know, and and be proud as well. Find real pride in that. Um, but to also ground yourself in the understanding that you know you've got to keep doing the same thing as always. Business as usual. You're so right in the difference between I guess the Olivier is fantastic, and obviously you're being celebrated for perhaps playing somebody else, whereas this is you just living, you know, just breathing, just sort of existing.

[23:55] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, yeah, and it's, you know, the title is services to drama, so it's always services to, and then whatever the field is. So it's a celebration of everything that you are giving and contributing to a particular sector. Um, and it's just not something because that could come at any time. Whereas we all know when the Olivier is coming, and we all know that if you've done a show that is um part of the Society of London Theatre, then you'll probably potentially be up one of the cat, you know, we all sort of know, whereas that it's just could just come through your door. Also important to remember the flip side, which is that these things are not the sort of sole validators of your work and of you.

You know, it's lovely to celebrate them when you get them, but equally, if you don't get them, it doesn't negate what you've done or make what you've done any less special. You know, the work is the work, the experiences that people have exist, whether I'd won those that Olivier or not, whether I'd received the MBE or not, I'm still giving my services to drama either way, you know.

[24:57] William J Connolly: So that's what I mean by the everything and nothing. It's not to kind of diminish or undermine those celebrations, but it's just to kind of put everything into a wider perspective, I think, so that you can actually really enjoy them for what they are, rather than them having to become, you know, mutated into something else. I feel like I'm doing a little bit of a disservice by sort of flying through some of the sort of key points of your career. So I should say that there are so many other projects and stuff that you've worked on that have just been phenomenally successful. And I did just want to give a little mention to the Underground Railroad because I don't know what I expected. I had the pleasure of interviewing some of your castmates, and it just, I think because it's such a thing of beauty and the way that it's been captured and the way that Barry's put it together, that I think you get drawn into this world that you think, well, gosh, it's beautiful, and then of course the story comes along and it sort of breaks your heart and tears your heart apart.

But it's an extraordinary, extraordinary piece on Amazon. So if anybody is looking for a different dose once they've come and seen you, of course, in Constellations, then I'd certainly say from a personal perspective, and I'm pretty sure you'll agree, it's certainly one to check out.

[26:03] William J Connolly: Now, there is one topic that I have avoided discussing with you because I probably get quite emotional talking about this, but there are two pieces of theatre that changed my life: Angels in America at the National Theatre, just for all the reasons that I accuse I'm sure you could imagine, but then also Girl from the North Country, which I'm sure comes as very little surprise to you because I know that people discuss it with you all the time because you did win an Olivier Award, of course, for it. I had the pleasure of seeing you in the press area afterwards and telling you how much I loved you, and thank God you didn't run away. I find it quite difficult when people say to me, like, well, why are you so obsessed with that show?

What was it? And I sort of don't really have an answer, and I feel like I should come up with a really good structured answer. But I think it's a gift, and I don't think realistically these projects come along all that often. And I guess without sort of dumbing down a really important question, do you have words to describe why it's such a special show?

[26:52] Sheila Atim MBE: Not really, no. I mean, I think your experience, at least what you're describing, is something that a lot of people have felt, even people in the cast. I don't know that I've had there were lots of cast members who said this show changed my life. Even when I say it changed my life, I again I can't really explain why, and not because of the Olivier or any of that stuff, but it just I just never worked on a project like it. I'd never done anything like it, both in terms of the actual piece itself and the tone of it and the structure and the story, but also just the process, the rehearsal process, working with that many talented, lovely, generous people who were all so different, genuinely really different, but we just all tessellated perfectly.

We just all understood each other and got each other. But we're so different in our sensibilities. I've never really had an experience like that, and I think maybe Underground Railroad was kind of similar. Again, it was filming, so I didn't come into contact with everyone, but it just, yeah, it is really difficult to describe, and I think sometimes that's okay; not everything needs to be explained, you know.

[28:11] Sheila Atim MBE: And I think also the transience of theatre as well, kind of, and this might sound a bit sort of overblown and romantic, but the transience of theatre means that it is this kind of moment and then it's gone, and it's sort of like this fairy dust. And when you're trying to describe it to people maybe who didn't see it, they're just not gonna get it because they just weren't there, and that's fine because they'll be present for something else. And I think in an age where everything is captured all the time by our phones and then put online, everyone feels this sort of constant impulse to capture everything. It's quite nice to have things where they are harder to capture in explicit terms. And I think that was, I think that was partly, if not intentional, then I think that was definitely something that Connor was aware of and didn't mind.

You know, he's Connor McPherson, who wrote it and directed it; he's all about that kind of fairy dust thing. I mean, he probably wouldn't call it fairy dust, but you know, he's not trying to explain everything. That's kind of the play was written in the spirit of that, and that's, you know, a style that's woven into a lot of his stories. I like hearing how it made people feel without having to hear a detailed analysis of what they thought worked technically and what didn't. Sometimes it's just you just you're truthful to the feeling, and that's all that matters, you know? That's the important thing because you can't control the feeling; that's one thing that you can't control; you can't contrive it, you know. So if it made you feel something, then that's just the truth, and that's what it is.

[29:50] William J Connolly: I agree, and it was definitely about that moment, and that seems like the classic sort of theatre response of like, oh, you had to be in the moment. But I think I always describe it as like you sort of miss a beat when you're in that show because you feel like everything stops for a second, and that's when you get it in the heart. That's when you think, okay, so my heart almost feels like it skips that beat because it belonged in this moment, and therefore you go, okay, now it got me, now it gets me. And I think it's down to perhaps just for my experience as an audience member, just the simplicity of the fact that it wasn't trying to overcomplicate a story that was very, very real, like everybody could find themselves in at least one of those characters, and also just the overwhelming desire to do the right thing for your family.

And I think so often in theatre, we sort of talk about family in a very dramatic sense. Actually, this was just someone trying to do the right thing. And I think, and there were a few sort of events in the play, but as you say, it was a bit more ethereal in that sense, a bit more esoteric, and it wasn't focused on creating a sort of dramatic arc that we could all see coming. And you were just watching people, you're just watching people going through life, but it was done in such a way that I think just took people off guard somehow. So it wasn't boring; it didn't feel mundane to watch. And I think obviously the music, Bob Dylan's music, and then the arrangements that Simon Hale orchestrated as well, just kind of gave this sort of beautiful transcendence to what is just struggles, you know, and people going through a time like the Great Depression in the US, and everyone just trying to survive and trying to lean on each other to do that, but also sometimes not being able to, and sometimes clashing and, you know, maybe not being the best for each other despite all of their efforts, and yeah, just really, really basic human things that we all go through.

[31:46] Sheila Atim MBE: But I think, yeah, I don't really, I still don't really understand how Connor did it, but he somehow made everything surprising still, you know, a character like Elizabeth played by Shirley Henderson, completely her own, you know, where did she come from? She's, you know, for those who didn't see it, she's a character with early onset dementia, and she's just this kind of almost like a seer or an oracle. Yeah, it was, it was extraordinary. I don't, I don't really get it.

[32:15] William J Connolly: Very good. I'm so, I just thought it was me. I was like, oh, I don't know, I don't know how to describe it, but I'm so glad you feel that way. And of course, your iconic goddess status, fully, fully, fully cemented with your Olivier Award performance. I mean, literally one of the quickest standing ovations I think I've ever seen on there. And again, just that song. I mean, you know, Tight Connection, just it's just a work of art. Do you remember the first time you heard, I guess, this version of it, and did you sort of go, oh my gosh, like what, wow?

[32:48] Sheila Atim MBE: So we made it up, you know. I mean, if you hear the Bob Dylan version of it, he kind of speaks more or less the whole thing, speaking to me and with heavy emphasis on the speak. So there weren't really any notes. So I remember when Connor played it to me, and I was like, okay, so what do we do with that? And he was like, well, we just gotta make something up, and he sort of kind of sung, I think it's, I kind of got this in my head, it was like, and actually to be fair, that's how we kind of sang through most of the songs as an ensemble. So every song we would listen to the recording once, and then we would all together in unison busk our way through it, and it was really like terrible, but great because it wasn't the standard thing that you do in musicals of we're gonna bash out the notes on a keyboard and we're going to learn exactly where it's supposed to be.

It was more sort of let's feel our way through and see naturally where our voice is going. And you know, we had real license to do that because that's kind of what Bob Dylan does himself when you listen to all the different recordings and versions of his songs, they can be really wildly different. We weren't married to anything in particular. So we kind of had that day where Connor sort of sang those sort of five notes to me, and then it was just up to me. Went away, sang, and then each time we sang through it, we would add something else and would try and do a little build and would try and create an arc to the song. But that was it. And then Simon orchestrated something around it and did backing vocals and instrumentation, and so it was really like that, and that was the way a lot of the songs built up. It wasn't that it was pre-written and we had to learn it at all. A lot of us really did create those songs, you know, or those versions.

[34:33] Sheila Atim MBE: And the story lives on. It of course came back to the West End; it was so unbelievably successful, we just could not get enough of it, and it must make you very, very proud, of course, that production, but also believe it went to Canada, and then it's also I think it played for a very limited time on Broadway, and then of course the pandemic stopped it, but I know it is going back. And there's gonna be a Broadway cast recording, so it's gonna be even more of us to be able to just take in and adore, which for you I can imagine just makes you really proud.

[34:59] Sheila Atim MBE: Yeah, it's so nice to know that it's something that has such a life. I mean, again, when you're this sometimes it can be hard when you're inside a project to really know like what it is, you know, and particularly with this, because it was so esoteric, you could feel it was special and it was sort of something that was gonna be beautiful, but you didn't really know what it was. And even now, like four years later, I'm on this podcast going, I don't even know what it was. It's nice to know that despite that, people still got it, and there's still a space and a home for it around the world, you know, not just here, but in Canada and in the US and who knows, maybe elsewhere. It's really nice, and it was such a big part of my life.

I feel like just everything about it, the projects, the timing, the experience, the things that came after it as a result of it. It's such a huge part of my life, but it's nice to know that other people are sort of building their own experiences on it as well.

[35:59] William J Connolly: Well, thank you for that moment, and most importantly from me, thank you so much for this moment. I mean, I, as much as I joke and I can be quite silly at the start, like that you have been a dream guest of mine for a significant amount of time. So thank you so much for finding time in a very busy schedule to be able to come and talk to me today. And just for your honesty, it's such a pleasure, and to get the opportunity to tell you how much I do adore your work and some of the specific pieces is a real pleasure. So thank you so, so much.

[36:23] Sheila Atim MBE: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[36:24] Sheila Atim MBE: And I'm gonna tell everyone to call me goddess now.

[36:26] William J Connolly: Yes, and I'm gonna say it's officially sanctioned by this podcast.

[36:31] Sheila Atim MBE: So if you get some emails from people being like, oh, what have you done? It's all gone to a head, then I'm sorry.

[36:38] Sheila Atim MBE: We'll have to fight me first, don't worry, it's goddess MBE. It's either all or nothing.

[36:42] William J Connolly: Okay, mark my words. It's a full title or it's nothing, or don't talk to me.

[36:46] Sheila Atim MBE: Good luck with Constellations, honestly. Not that you need it, and I'm actually coming to see it next week, so I absolutely cannot wait, but just thank you so much and best of luck, and I'll see you very soon.

[36:54] Sheila Atim MBE: Amazing, thank you.

[36:58] William J Connolly: You've been listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast. Find out more about Eleven at elevenpodcast.com or via the Broadway Podcast Network.