This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Zizi Strallen: My name is Zizi Strallen. My name is Emma Kingston and you're listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[0:17] William J Connolly: Hello and welcome to Eleven, the official theatre podcast that brings the biggest stars and creatives together in one place to discuss life in the arts. Sunday 27th of September 2026 marks the 20th anniversary of Wicked in the West End. Now, two decades later and over 7,500 performances, the responsibility to tell this tale falls to two young actors helping to usher in a new era and put their mark on these infamous leading characters. So here, direct from their dressing room just days before the official 20th anniversary celebrations begin, Elphaba and Glinda reflect on the honour of leading this historic company of Wicked and why they just couldn't imagine doing the show with anybody else but each other.

We also explore the power of stepping into huge roles like Elphaba and Glinda and why you're honouring what came before without losing your own magic and why it's never been about being anybody else other than yourself. We also celebrate the joy of the original Broadway cast album with Kristen and Idina's voices, including how that inspired both of the young performers and why you have to learn to welcome and accept the pressures of singing a score that means so much to audiences. And we explore the joys of a British accent in this show, something that remains singular to the London production, the power of the Ozdust ballroom scene and how it remains one of their favourite moments to perform together each show and how the power of acceptance within this story penetrates into their own lives outside of the theatre.

Plus the relevance of a story that highlights political injustice, their collective frustrations at the lack of positive attitudes towards the phrasing of witch and what it's like to sing this score and perform that big Act One closer eight times a week. It is the soaring talents of Emma Kingston and Zizi Strallen. Hear now on this the next episode of Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[2:11] William J Connolly: Please help me welcome to this the next episode of Eleven. They are the spellbinding witches of Oz that are currently soaring high in the 20th anniversary cast of the smash hit mega musical Wicked as the West End production steps into its 20th anniversary year this September. And I'm honoured to say that they're both here together to talk about two decades of flying by broom and bubble at the Apollo Victoria Theatre. So welcome to the show.

[2:36] Zizi Strallen: Flying by broom and bubble at the Apollo Victoria Theatre. So I say toss toss to you, Zizi Strallen. How are you?

[2:42] Zizi Strallen: I'm good, thank you. Toss toss to yourself. But yeah, I can give you a toss toss. You ready? Toss toss. Oh, stunning.

[2:55] Zizi Strallen: Obsessed. Would you do the honours and introduce this rather extraordinary woman that joins us next to you?

[2:59] Zizi Strallen: Yes, this is Emma Kingston. I'm not sure who she plays. She just decided to join me for this interview. She's the green one, Elphaba.

[3:08] Zizi Strallen: And she doesn't know what I look like because I'm me.

[3:11] Emma Kingston: No, I know. I didn't recognise her when I saw her today. No, she's absolutely wonderful. And I couldn't imagine doing the show with anyone else, to be honest. Yeah, this is Emma Kingston, who plays Elphaba on the 20th anniversary of Wicked the musical.

[3:28] William J Connolly: Does that get normal to both of you saying that? Because even just the idea that this show has been around for 20 years is crazy. But to be the two people that get to be the vessel to star and lead this company into this anniversary must be as equal as it is probably quite terrifying. But also what an absolute honour. How are you both feeling at this moment when we're what, just over a week away from that official gala performance on this Sunday? How are you at the minute? Where are your brains at?

[3:53] Emma Kingston: Starting to hit me a bit more actually, recently, the more press we're doing this week and the more interviews and things we're doing. I think when you're doing a show for eight shows a week, and we've been doing it for over a year and a half, it's sort of like, it's amazing, but we're so used to doing it every week now. So we're sort of like, oh, it's another week. And then it's sort of been built up as quite a big thing. So yeah, it is quite terrifying in a way. But then actually, even just today, I feel like, oh, actually, this is really, really special.

[4:24] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, it is. I think, you know, also, you have to remember, not many shows get to hit this milestone.

[4:29] Emma Kingston: Yeah, so it's kind of a bit surreal. It's kind of a bit like, yeah.

[4:32] Zizi Strallen: There really aren't that many. Sorry, this was my dresser, Troy. He can come in and actually say hi. I should have actually put a thing outside saying we were doing a podcast. But that's Troy Johnston, who is the famous Elphaba Dresser, who has been here since 2009. How many? You've dressed every single Elphaba Dresser except Idina.

[4:56] Troy Johnston: And a couple of understudies.

[4:57] Zizi Strallen: And a couple of understudies. Troy is the person who really should be on the podcast.

[5:01] Emma Kingston: Yeah, he's got all the goths.

[5:03] Zizi Strallen: All the goths of 20 years.

[5:05] Emma Kingston: It's an extraordinary achievement. And also, I've had the pleasure of talking to some of the extraordinary creatives that helped build this show in London. And they talked so much about how London is referred to in the world of Wicked as this definitive production. It's the production that saw the creative teams come back together after it opened on Broadway, when it was the first time that an audience outside of the United States got the pleasure of knowing what Wicked was in person. It actually was brought to them. And also, the show got rebuilt. There were certain things that were changed. There were certain updates that were brought. And the fact that we got to see a British cast do it with British accents, with British isms, and to be able to lean into a Western audience, that it now is regarded as this definitive production across the globe, which means you're also part of a history-making production as well, that is this supersonic version of Wicked.

Zizi, what's it like to be in this world as a very definitively British Glinda, with the British accent, the British isms, and that that's very much celebrated here? You don't get this anywhere else in the world.

[6:02] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, it is kind of crazy that they think of our production as the definitive one, because obviously for us, it was always the Broadway one and the album. But that does make sense that I feel like they felt like they could all get back together and make updates and fix things that maybe they thought they hadn't got right the first time in America. So actually, yeah, I think that is kind of lovely that we're in sort of like, yeah, the definitive version, as it were. But I think Glinda really, certainly in the scenes and the acting and the character of Glinda definitely lends itself to an RP English accent, because she's so kind of this kind of boarding school, upper class girl, that it is quite easy.

I always sort of channel things like Amanda from Motherland and characters like that, I think, where she sort of like, doesn't realise. I think for me as well, when coming from playing Marie Antoinette as well, it is sort of a bit of that in it as well, where she's this sort of like, posh, upper class girl that doesn't realise that she's actually saying some things that are quite cutting, but she just thinks that she's being quite sweet.

[7:10] Emma Kingston: I said the way that Zizi plays Glinda is a little bit like Miranda Richardson playing Queenie in Blackadder.

[7:16] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, which I thought was an incredible compliment. So she's sort of got that Queenie element, like, gosh, I just think that, you know, everything's so easy in this world. Like, how can you just not think that everything's so easy? I just don't understand.

[7:32] Emma Kingston: It's got to be, it's pink, obviously.

[7:33] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, it's like, you know, but obviously that's where she gets to go on such a lovely journey as well, because she sort of learns that maybe the sky isn't so pink. So yeah, it definitely lends itself to the English accent, for sure.

[7:52] Emma Kingston: I had the pleasure of talking to Helen Dallimore, who of course very famously created the role of Glinda in London, and she was saying that actually one of the great things that was so interesting was when she was doing her English accent, Idina, of course, had the American accent, which meant that in terms of how it was positioned, they sounded slightly different, and it took a while for them to find a place that felt like it was blending. And I believe, is that right, with Jordan, who of course is American and joining the London company, did you have a little bit of that recently where it was like, we're singing the same thing, but it does sound a little bit different?

[8:19] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, we have a moment where we do Born to be forever, and he's like, forever. And if I do too much, forever, if I do too much of that, it doesn't work. So I have to kind of Americanise my voice a bit in that bit, but actually it makes it easier to sing that bit, so I'm not complaining. That bit in the music lends itself to belting in an American accent, so I was like, cool, I'll do that. But like, only like a sort of transatlantic, you know. And you were saying you do that a little bit in As Long As You're Mine.

[9:01] Emma Kingston: In As Long As You're Mine, for sure. I think I slightly open up the vowels more in As Long As You're Mine, which I think I would do anyway, and I did with Carl beforehand. Hold me too fast, rather than fast. I think also, yes, the scenes and everything are, they do work in a British accent, but I think the scanning of some of the lyrics in the songs, the rhyming is done for an American accent. So I think the vowels sometimes when you're singing have to be slightly altered in order to make the rhyming make sense.

[9:34] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, and Stephen Schwartz does these incredible inner, he calls them like inner rhymes.

[9:39] Emma Kingston: Really lovely one, and popular.

[9:41] Zizi Strallen: You're gonna grin and bear it, your newfound popularity. But like, no one thing, or like, one that I literally learned recently was, share our ending vicariously with all of you, which I was like, what? And Ron, our MD, was like, yeah, see? I was like, that's not an obvious one. Tell me anyone who knew that that was an obvious one. Happy to share our ending vicariously. That is apparently a rhyme that I'm supposed to point out, but.

[10:18] Emma Kingston: Interesting.

[10:19] Zizi Strallen: Yeah.

[10:22] William J Connolly: I mean, you said a second ago about the soundtrack and the fact that like, some people's first introduction to Wicked would of course been through that now rather iconic soundtrack. Were you the sort of person that had that rather extraordinary experience, which I feel like most people that have been in Wicked have had, which is like, that is my album, that is the song, this is the way I want to sound. And it becomes like a bible in terms of what you listen to, what do you want to feel powerful, and you want to hear these extraordinary voices, to then transition to being the person that is actually getting the pleasure of doing it. Now, you've absolutely got the talent to do it, but to be able to actually do that eight times a week is a big ask. So what's it been like for you as like, someone that has such great respect for the material, then stepping into actually being the vessel to do it?

[11:03] Emma Kingston: That's a great question. I think one of the things that I've learnt across my career from doing big shows, you know, I did Les Mis as an understudy at the start of my career, I played Eva Perron, and even Heathers to a degree. You have to think, you're not the first person to play this role, you're not going to be the last person to play this role. So all you can bring to it is yourself, and yourself is what makes the part different. I think the minute we try and do too many impressions or riffs or, you know, all that sort of thing, I think we lose a bit of the essence of the story. Now look, I love me a good bootleg, and I know I'm probably not supposed to say that, but I feel in the YouTube era, we all grew up watching different bootlegs or formulations of Wicked.

And of course, during concerts, of which they are on my Instagram, I have done many an option in The Wizard and I, Defying Gravity, No Good Deed. And yet, doing the show, I still have my own isms, but I think there's something that I've really learnt character-wise when you go through that, for me, and the way that I like to play Elphaba, sort of, I hear Idina's voice in my head, because I'm so used to that being the voice that I hear on the music. But, you know, it gets to Wizard and I, and I think, Elphaba as a character isn't in her full power yet, and actually she's just had this amazing news, and, you know, she's

[12:39] Emma Kingston: It's very upbeat and happy and lifted. So, vocally, I want to try and channel a much bigger innocence of her moving forward. And therefore, it gives you a journey to go on. Yeah. So that your voice is matured, Elphaba's voice is matured and richer by the time you get to Know Good Deed. Yeah. You don't want to start there, do you? No. You could, like, just do full pelt every song, but then you have no journey, no arc. So even throughout Defying Gravity, I've always said, actually, in the auditions for Wicked, I'm always surprised that they don't make people sing the beginning. Yeah. Because... It's really hard. It's the slipping in between of, like, kissing me goodbye, and all of that sort of very light qualities to the voice that are a complete contrast to the ending.

But again, the end of Defying Gravity is such a different emotion to The Wizard and I, to I'm Not That Girl, to then Know Good Deed when she's in her full power. So yeah, I think, you know, having listened to the soundtrack and being... I am a massive Wicked superfan, and I always have been. But when you undertake a show in its 19th, 20th year, remember that the audiences also want to see Wicked. They don't... And they want... audiences want to see different versions of roles. They do. They don't want to see the same thing. Not really. They might think they do, but actually it's so much more interesting. But you shouldn't push it so far that they're seeing a different track. That's just you've, what I mean by that is, you're respecting the material, but like being true to who you are.

So like, I always have, you know, in the comedy moments and stuff, it would be so easy to just do a carbon copy of what Kristin Chenoweth did in the original production. But like, that would be so inauthentic to me as a comedian.

[14:15] Zizi Strallen: She's 4'11".

[14:16] Emma Kingston: Exactly. You're 5'7". The physical aspect of the comedy is going to be so different on your body, doesn't mean it's not funny. No.

[14:21] William J Connolly: Emma, what was it also like the first time then, in perhaps whatever medium it might have been that you heard yourself in the production singing those songs full out, when you actually became the voice that you had been listening to, you'd actually become that character and that person? What was that very first moment like on a personal level, when you went, I've actually managed to do something that you, as you rightfully say, were a fan of? You've almost like achieved something that I can imagine the first time you heard those songs would have felt almost impossible to reach.

[15:09] Emma Kingston: I don't know what you talk about when you say these different mediums that I may have heard myself on. I think there is something so unbelievably unique about being in that moment, for me certainly, my first Defying Gravity. And I felt similar in my tech rehearsal singing Don't Cry For Me Argentina. Because I was doing the original Hal Prince production of that as well. You know, I was on the balcony in my white dress singing Don't Cry For Me Argentina. And you've sung that song a thousand times and suddenly you're in the same costume, and you're doing the same staging and quite similarly for this, you think, I saw this production 20 years ago with Idina Menzel, and suddenly I'm the one doing it.

It just feels like a complete fever dream sometimes. And I've always said, when I go home after the show, and I'm not green, and I'm not in the building, I never think to myself, I'm the girl who plays Elphaba. I just think, well, I'm Emma. And then I come into work, and I'm green, and I go, oh, I remember who plays Elphaba when I'm at work. And it's almost like the two things don't marry in my head as that's my job. It's also good to remember as well that we're not competition winners as well. It's good to remember that we've been in the industry for 17 years or thereabouts, and working up, starting in the ensemble, understudying. I was a swing my first job, coming up and up and up, and playing loads of different roles and things like that. So you sort of go, there's a part of you that's like, yeah, yeah, I'm fucking playing Glinda in the West. I didn't just enter a competition on this morning, and I won it. Do you know what I mean?

[17:09] Zizi Strallen: To be fair, I did think that. When I finally got the call after many a concert singing this material, many of this, many of that, and I went, I think I really deserve this.

[17:19] Emma Kingston: You do! Sometimes I think as Brits, that's quite difficult for us to say. And I truly believe if we were in America, we'd go, I deserve this. Yeah, yeah. I've been working for a really long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're a bit tied to sort of... Oh no, no, it could never possibly be me. Especially as women, almost being our full power. And if we want to relate it to the show, if this show teaches us anything, it's for strong ass women to know their power.

[17:45] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, totally. And I remember hearing you, for the first time, do No Good Deed in the studio, and the bit... What's the bit when you go, That bit. I heard that for the first time with your arms up in the studio, and I was like, yeah!

[18:04] Emma Kingston: Fuck yeah! I remember thinking that when you sang the end of Thank Goodness.

[18:08] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, well, cheers.

[18:11] Emma Kingston: I still really love that bit. I love that bit. It's like in your thick, cold, metal belt.

[18:18] Zizi Strallen: Yeah.

[18:18] Emma Kingston: And it is the juiciest bit. That's my favourite. I think that's part of my voice that is my favourite to sing in. It's right in the middle. It's the Judy Garland voice.

[18:26] Zizi Strallen: Nice.

[18:29] Emma Kingston: If Judy Garland sang No Good Deed. No good deed goes unpunished!

[18:39] Zizi Strallen: Brilliant. We need a recording of that.

[18:42] Emma Kingston: Call me. Lizzie, one of the great conversations that I had with the extraordinary Winnie Holtzman, this literally this time yesterday, was talking about one of the big pinnacle moments that changed when the production came to London. And apart from the fact that there was a couple of changes to the opener, the removal of the rather iconic witch's hat from the very beginning was the Ozdust ballroom scene, when there was a lot more weight put into that. And it gave Wicked, as they believe, some of the heart and the emotion that we see on stage now. And every single time that I get the pleasure of coming to see this show, and I think we really saw this really viscerally with the movie in that particular scene, is how much punch that moment has.

What's it like to be part of that scene that is kind of almost separate to Wicked in a way, because it is so fun and silly and there's great individuality, but this is about togetherness and connection. It's kind of the moment where we see, not the fact that these two ladies then become friends and sort of stop arguing at this point, but actually they realise they're both actually striving for the same thing, which is acceptance from the people around them, but without having to remove themselves from that moment. What's it like in that particular moment from your perspective? And the fact that the person that you're sending a lot of the hate in the initial part of that scene to, as we've seen from this conversation, someone that you care very deeply for, that moment feels very special and actually pinnacle in this storytelling.

[20:02] Zizi Strallen: I love doing that bit every night. I love it. We call it Elphaba's dance. And like, it's, oh my God, as a character, it's one of those moments where you can, everything that in Act One has been leading up to that moment of realising that every decision that Glinda has made leading up to that moment and every sort of like, whether she's really thought it all the way through, which I don't think she has. And she's sort of like, been misled by her friends around her. On the bandwagon. And she's sort of like, yeah, gone sort of whirled up into this kind of things that she's doing with the hat and the, you know, and she realises, for me, the information hitting me that Elphaba has said that she's going to give up her dream if she doesn't, if Madame Morrible doesn't let Glinda join in the class.

It's like, she said she's going to quit the class. That's what she said. And it's like, what? And it hits Glinda of like, she would never do that. You know, she's so sort of social climbing at that point where she would never say to Madame Morrible, I won't do the class if you don't. And so it was the selflessness of Elphaba that's like, everything that Elphaba does in Act One, it teaches Glinda so much about herself and about how to be a good human. And that moment of, this is my chance to be a good human. I get to come, I get to try and redeem some of myself back. And then the fact that everyone else joins in, it's such a beautiful moment because it's like, oh, well, if she accepts her, then I can accept her.

It's the Regina George cutting the top moment. You know, it's like, if Glinda does it, then we'll do it. And then she kind of, I think Glinda also realises her power a bit in that bit as well, because it's like, oh, wow, you know, she's quite a, she can really.

[22:01] Emma Kingston: She's a trendsetter.

[22:02] Zizi Strallen: She's a trendsetter. She's a sort of leader.

[22:04] Emma Kingston: She is a leader and people will follow her.

[22:07] William J Connolly: Emma, forgive me if this is a really long question, but one of the other great conversations alongside this one that I was talking to Winnie about was two specific moments in Defying Gravity that really penetrate through from a character-led perspective. One is the denouncement of Elphaba from Madame Morrible and how pinnacle that is to see wickedness on a visceral, without being hidden, top moment. And that's the point at which we see the story start to change, where we start to directly point fingers in people's faces and show wickedness without a mask, without doing it via an animal or another medium. But the other part of that moment is exactly as Elphaba is about to rise up, is that she says, it's me.

It's not about protecting herself. It's not about saying, oh, it's someone else's opinion on somebody. And that's the decision that you make. But it's the moment of which she says, quite literally, you want me to be it. I'm just about to be it. Watch what I do. And it's the moment of which she has absolutely nothing to hide. What is that moment like in those particular words? Obviously, we know the epic is about to happen and the song comes there. But what's that like as a human being to be like, I have nothing to hide. I have everything behind me. And I have a full hour and 10 minutes of acting and feeling as she does, to then you go, and here I am. This is an I am moment. There's nothing else to hide. What does that feel like in your soul?

[23:23] Zizi Strallen: I love that question, actually. Certainly the start of Defying Gravity, when Madame Morrible makes that speech, I do get quite emotional in that scene, because it is essentially how I view mediums like TikTok and Instagram. You have to think that Madame Morrible is using what's essentially a radio broadcast to deliver her opinion as fact. And I remember hearing a great quote recently, I think I was reading something that Jason Robert Brown had written, because I went to see a show called The Connector when I was in New York a couple of years ago. And it was all about this idea of what is truth. And it's something The Wizard says as well, later on in Wonderful. The truth is not a thing of fact or reason.

The truth is just what everyone agrees on. And in that first moment with Madame Morrible, that is the first time in the show, aside from the opening. So in terms of from the beginning of their story, the first time we hear the word wicked uttered by Madame Morrible in that moment, she brands you, she brands Elphaba. Yes. And so forever, you know, it's the boy who lived or the boy with the scar on his head. It's the same thing. You are given this name and you are given this characteristic that then you say one thing and it's a slogan, you know. And herd mentality, de-individualization comes of everyone suddenly goes, you know, look at her, she's wicked. It's the next thing. And then it's suddenly the word on every single person's lip. Yeah. And all from one person with power, using words in a very specific way.

[25:19] Emma Kingston: As Elphaba, the words carry a lot of meaning and you should be very careful with the words that you use, whether it's nowadays on social media or, you know, via text messages. I mean, you know, when we were teenagers, I can't, I think once, I remember, you know, when I sent a text to someone and it, you know, you were saying something maybe not very nice and it got sent to the person who you were talking about. And how dangerous that can be in terms of, you know, idle gossip and that sort of thing. And the way that we see, you can think of it like the news of the world and the way that headlines and tabloid culture in the 90s. And I think in that moment, Elphaba makes a decision because she also knows Madame Morrible has magic power, but the wizard doesn't have magic power. The wizard is an orator. He is an unbelievable public speaker. But in that moment, she says, I'm actually not afraid of the wizard. He should be afraid of me. And it's when she finds her full power.

[26:30] Zizi Strallen: And she owns it. And I felt like owning, yeah, someone calling you a name and you going, well, okay, then fine. I'll be that person because if that means standing up for what I think is right, then I want to be that.

[26:44] Emma Kingston: Yeah, I don't want to bend.

[26:46] Zizi Strallen: It's that thing. If your idea of wrong is that, then I want to be that.

[26:53] Emma Kingston: Yeah, exactly. And then for the moment that you say sort of going up and defying gravity, it's just come after the moment where she's said to Glinda, please come with me. And in that moment, Glinda also makes a decision to say, I would love to, but I can't.

[27:09] Zizi Strallen: Glinda doesn't have the strength. And Glinda doesn't have the self-belief that Elphaba does.

[27:14] Emma Kingston: I also think that's probably an element of Glinda that says, I want to try and work from the inside.

[27:19] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, maybe, definitely in Act Two. But I think in defying gravity, I'm not sure she's got there yet. I think she's still at a place where she's struggling with herself. She doesn't know who she is yet, whereas Elphaba knows who she is.

[27:39] Emma Kingston: And I think Elphaba's always known who she is. But in that moment, it's...

[27:43] Zizi Strallen: And Elphaba knows that Glinda could be that person too.

[27:46] Emma Kingston: Which is why she said, come with me.

[27:48] Zizi Strallen: That's where she gets to at the end when she says, now it's up to you.

[27:51] Emma Kingston: Yeah.

[27:51] Zizi Strallen: You need to be this person now. And I know you can do it.

[27:54] Emma Kingston: Yeah.

[27:55] Zizi Strallen: Glinda's certainly not there. That's why she lets go of the broom because she's not there yet.

[27:59] Emma Kingston: And I think it's...

[28:00] Zizi Strallen: But Elphaba is strong enough to go, it's me. Okay, fine. Even if I'm flying solo, I've still got the strength to...

[28:07] Emma Kingston: And it's the first time you see her fly. It's the first time she has full power and autonomy over herself. Because in so many, even TV shows that I watch where they talk about, you know, witches or magical powers, they go, magical powers are harnessed always from emotion. And the minute you are able to control your emotions and harness them into something, that is when special things start to happen. And you see it in other, you know, narratives like Frozen.

[28:36] Zizi Strallen: Oh, I was watching a really good interview with Sandra Bullock talking about Practical Magic 2. And they were saying about how the two new young witches in the new film...

[28:46] Emma Kingston: You mean Practical Magic?

[28:47] Zizi Strallen: What did I say?

[28:48] Emma Kingston: Hocus Pocus.

[28:49] Zizi Strallen: Practical Magic 2. Sorry. In Practical Magic, the interview with Sandra Bullock on Practical Magic 2, the two new young witches, they were talking on set very openly about how they want to rebrand the term witch and make it a positive thing. And that it is a positive thing. And it just means strong, powerful, magical woman.

[29:13] Emma Kingston: Yeah.

[29:14] Zizi Strallen: Because it was so, it's from way back when, when they would drown witches or burn witches, you know, and it's become a negative thing. But actually, it's not a negative thing in any way. It's a strong, powerful woman. And that's what a lot of people in this world are still very scared of.

[29:30] Emma Kingston: Well, you can be called a wizard. And it's like, you know, people use that all the time with regards to...

[29:35] Zizi Strallen: It's always a positive thing.

[29:36] Emma Kingston: You know, look at any, people would say Serena Williams is a wizard on the tennis court. But you'd never say she's a witch. Never describe someone positively as a witch. So yeah, I always think the use of words and the way that they're so divisive, especially in that number, is something that always hits me in the gut.

[30:03] Zizi Strallen: There's definitely lots of lyrics in Wicked that people quote. However, there's, I think there's a couple of lines from Winnie’s script that are really interesting, that seem to have penetrated into sort of general vocabulary of people when they're maybe not even talking about Wicked. And I think probably the strongest one is nothing brings folks together like a really good enemy, because it's completely bang on. Which is that actually, even in the Wicked context of Act Two, even after Elphaba's done the very thing that he thinks she'll never do, it's really interesting that he still believes in that moment, that by having one singular human being that everybody can rally against, will make him powerful.

And again, this is why this script is so good. It's because it's reminding people that it's still about, not about necessarily the individual in the positive sense, but finding someone to blame for his actions. And I feel like, again, that's a really interesting lens to look at the world today. If we think back, you know, and the creators have said this as well, the political relevance of this show from 2006 to 2026, there's basically no change. If anything, there's actually more of a reason for it to feel like a real-world conversation.

[31:05] Emma Kingston: Yeah, really. But I think that's the introduction of social media, because it's so hard now to decipher real from fake, opinion from fact. AI, you know, it's so scary with that. Who is speaking the truth? Who's speaking fact? There's a lot of conspiracy theories with that, you know, with politics as well, about how like, you know, certain governments have created an enemy that kind of deflects from what they're doing. And people do it throughout politics and throughout history, always, you know, and it's so relevant, always, to anything that line, you know, the fact that he's, well, isn't he saying the animals, he's making the animals the enemy, isn't he? He's making the, if he can get the animals different to humans, then humans will have them to focus on and be the enemy, and then it'll deflect from him having no powers.

[32:02] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, he's dehumanising them, taking away their voices. And that happens in history and all over the world. It's so much, it's happened for hundreds, thousands of years, and it's still happening today. And hopefully, at some point, it won't happen. But yeah, it's so relevant. It's crazy.

[32:26] William J Connolly: One of my final questions for you, because you've been very kind with your time. What do you think it is about this particular world in a 2026 audience when people have seen Wicked and they continue to come back, that allows people to feel seen in this space? Apollo Victoria Theatre is so huge. It's an absolute barn of a place, yet it feels so incredibly intimate as an audience member when this story comes to life. From both of your perspectives, being at the heart of it and getting to feel that connection 20 years later, what do you think it is about that particular space? And this particular story that reminds us all that, actually, we are way closer together than we are far apart. And actually, sometimes, it's always the person you don't expect that's probably got your back the most. What do you think it is about Wicked that makes it so special here in this 20th anniversary year?

[33:09] Zizi Strallen: Yeah, I think from a very simple place, it doesn't matter how, you know, what seat you're in. This show is so unbelievably colourful that you see a green girl on stage and you see a bubble dress or a pink dress and a blonde wig, and you can still identify to those two characters, whether they're just in, you know, silhouette, if you've not got your glasses on, or you're up close and seeing, like, the beads of sweat come off our face. I think anyone can relate to the idea of being an outsider or being in a minority, or even just being in a disagreement with someone over something very small. I think the show, in terms of its relatability for people cross-generationally of, you know, from different parts of the world, I think will always ring true with these characters.

And even in somewhere like the Apollo Victoria, you know, I know for this show, they've, again, from just a pure show perspective, they've updated the lighting, they have made it just look so exceptional. Susan Hilferty's costumes in this show, I don't think, get spoken about enough. The Emerald City costumes are incredible. The ensemble costumes are unbelievable. You know, and even, like, Wayne's choreography, no one is ever doing a step together. Everyone's so individual.

[34:39] Emma Kingston: Different things, yeah. You know, there are people in the audience who'll say, I loved that ensemble member in that because they did this one really dark move, which was incredible. Or, you know, we've got tumblers in the show. We've, you know, there's a Fanny and Shen Shen who have their own little characters that people can relate to, sort of being minions, as it were, that, you know, across the different characters of the show, no matter who you're playing, there is someone in the audience who sees that person and goes, oh, I'm like that. And I think that's why it feels so intimate, because it's a show that reflects society, and you see yourself on stage. You know, you see a green girl that is treated so differently to everyone else. People literally scream in her face when they see her.

[35:31] Zizi Strallen: I agree. Look, I think that's what I think touches everybody when they come and see the show, because it teaches you to not just take people on face value. And even, and this is why it's so clever as well, because it's not just the obvious of the green girl. It's not just obvious. Oh, I see a green girl and think she's, she's different, and I'm going to treat her a certain way. Playing Glinda has made me realize that, that, that people do it to Glinda too. They see her as this like blonde, posh girl, and treat her a certain way. And she's just, and she's, so she started acting that way.

[36:11] Emma Kingston: Yeah.

[36:11] Zizi Strallen: And I think in society, you, you sort of get, you get,

[36:15] Emma Kingston: And especially as women,

[36:18] Zizi Strallen: People make presumptions about you, about the way you look, and they, and they decide to treat you a certain way, or they make judge, first judgments on you, or initial, initial thoughts and judgments on you, because of how you look, and, or your upbringing, or, you know, I think that can, that hits everybody. I think everybody can relate to that in some kind of way in their life, not being accepted for who they, they really feel they are inside. And they can't quite get people to really see who they are inside, or they can't, they can't quite get to get to grips with who they are yet in their life. And so this show teaches you both things. It teaches you to accept people for what they are inside and don't, and if you accept your authentic self, and also to accept your authentic self for who you are as well. And that's why it will always, always be relevant with an audience.

[37:15] William J Connolly: Emma, Zizi, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for giving me such a huge amount of your time in what is a whirlwind moment I know for both of you in this 20th anniversary year and month. So thank you so much for agreeing to do this. Thank you so much for those extraordinary answers. And most importantly, I will see you this time, pretty much next week for that rather special gala weekend. So thank you so much. And good luck out there.

[37:36] Emma Kingston: Thank you.

[37:41] William J Connolly: You've been listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast. Find out more about Eleven at elevenpodcast.com or via the Broadway Podcast Network.