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[0:00] Helen Dallimore: My name is Helen Dallimore and you're listening to Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[0:16] William J Connolly: Hello and welcome to Eleven, the official theatre podcast that brings the biggest stars and creatives together in one place to discuss life in the arts. She's the hilarious stage actor that made history in 2006 when she originated the role of Glinda in the West End production of Wicked, opposite none other than its Tony award-winning star Idina Menzel. And as the West End production steps into its 20th anniversary year this September, she's here to celebrate the most extraordinary thing to happen to this unknown Australian actress, including welcoming a new life for Glinda as the first with a British accent, to working with the show's original creative team on some of the major changes and script updates that have become definitive to the West End production.

And why not everything went quite to plan on that very first preview in London when it came to her first descent into Oz via the bubble, as she recalls, through great laughter. We also celebrate Kristin Chenoweth and her lasting impact on the role, why comedy is forever this Aussie’s favourite medium, and working with original London co-stars like Adam Garcia and Miriam Margolyes. Plus she celebrates the terrific team that she created with the bloody lovely Idina Menzel, including the electric feeling of playing opposite her Elphaba, how she had tears rolling down her face during every performance of “Defying Gravity,” and why there’s truly never been a voice like it. We also celebrate the extraordinary costumes of Susan Hilferty, the unmatched loyalty of Wicked London fans, and why it's important to never judge your character by their choices, including when faced with their more challenging moments each show.

And as we're returning to London this September for 20 years, she simply cannot wait. Arriving by bubble, it's the original superstar herself, it's Helen Dallimore, here now on this the next episode of Eleven, the official theatre podcast.

[2:07] William J Connolly: Please help me welcome to this the next episode of Eleven. She is the leading stage actor that made history when she created the role of Glinda in the original West End production of Wicked over two decades ago, as the show steps into its 20th anniversary year this September. And I'm honoured to say that she's here to celebrate her time in the bubble, and the memories of Oz that continue to live on each and every night at the Apollo Theatre. So I say, toss, toss, Helen Dallimore, are we travelling by bubble today?

[2:37] Helen Dallimore: Well, I am down under in the land of Oz, so I've been on themes ever since. But when you say 20 years, I feel like I should just be a skeleton smoking a cigarette now, because it seems like a terribly long time, and I should be like Methuselah or something. But as you just very kindly said, I look exactly the same, and I feel like I'm in the right place at the right time.

[3:02] William J Connolly: I look exactly the same.

[3:03] Helen Dallimore: You really do. You really do. Literally, I was looking before this conversation at some of the truly iconic pictures of you as Glinda.

[3:10] William J Connolly: It's the best thing about Zoom. You know, if you put your brightness on your laptop up high enough, you can erase decades.

[3:17] Helen Dallimore: One of the things I wanted to show you was a photograph of both of us when I came to see Wicked, which we both look, I think, pretty similar. I don't know if you can be able to see this. Can you see that?

[3:27] William J Connolly: Oh, aren't we cute? Yes! Yes!

[3:30] Helen Dallimore: One of the things I remember so viscerally about your performance in Wicked was just how funny you are, and every single part of this conversation, both on this recording and off, have just reminded me how bloody funny you are. And I know that that was a thing that every single person that had the pleasure of sitting in those seats was just met with this wall of sound from your great singing and the funny lulls that you brought with it. Can I ask you just to take me back then to 2006, which, again, does feel like yesterday, as Mr. Stephen Schwartz told me, but actually is 20 freaking years ago, which is insane. Can you remember what it was like, day one, when you first sat in that rehearsal room and they went, oh, by the way, you know that Tony-winning show that is sort of taking over New York? We're going to try doing it here.

[4:13] Helen Dallimore: Look, the whole thing is so vividly seared into my memory. I mean, it was really the most extraordinary thing to happen to this unknown Australian actress. I wasn't unknown here, but I certainly was to UK audiences. So it was kind of wild that I went from having done one episode of Midsomer Murders in the entire time I'd been there, which I think was about five years, straight to becoming Glinda in Wicked opposite Idina Menzel. And I think I had sort of a false confidence because I don't think I was really aware of how fucking huge it was. I was just like, oh, great, I've got this fantastic job. And I didn't really have a concept of the kind of juggernaut and the zeitgeist that Wicked was and became even more so.

And the fact that I was in a show that would still be running, sitting there in rehearsals on the first day was like it was just for me, it was like this is a really fun gig, you know, and the cast were universally lovely. I was so lucky to have Idina. She was so, so kind to me and just normal, you know, just a normal person. She wasn't a diva. She wasn't stagey. She wasn't she was just warm and humble and really keen to collaborate. And of course, my fellow countryman, Adam Garcia, who we put, I think, each other at ease because we were both Aussies and Miriam, who just honestly, if you want to fade into the background, you just stand near Miriam. She makes everyone feel quiet. So, yeah, it was quite amazing.

[6:04] William J Connolly: I had the pleasure of talking to Mr. Stephen Schwartz this time yesterday, and one thing that he was incredibly honest about was the fact that the creative team were, and I use his word, nervous about bringing Wicked from New York to London because they weren't sure, in particular, about where The Wizard of Oz sat in UK and British and Western culture, but also for the fact that the initial response, it's fair to say, in New York was like it became this juggernaut and this extraordinary role and this extraordinary show. But initially, the reviews were very famously quite mid, and Wicked obviously did lose the Tony Awards, which means that there wasn't this like surefire guaranteed box office hit that we know Wicked became incredibly quickly in London.

So there was understandably, as he said, he was a little bit nervous about bringing it over. And actually, I feel like one thing that the creative team did, which is so genius about London, was that they allowed it to not be a replica of New York. You weren't trying to recreate what Kristin Chenoweth did, in particular with you, and it felt like you've had the most amount of creative input and breathing space to be able to create what I guess is kind of the blueprint now for what we see so many women do in the West End, which is make Glinda even more funny and even more character driven. And that's not to do any disservice to what Kristin did, because Kristin is extraordinary, but it feels like you created this modern, as it's so often quoted, the definitive version of Glinda that we see now. So how much creativity did they give you? Where did you sort of draw your Glinda from, and what did you want her to be like that perhaps wasn't the same as what people had seen before?

[7:34] Helen Dallimore: I knew that they wanted her to be British, and I knew that my sort of version of what that character would be like in a British context was more like a kind of Sloane Ranger. She's posh, she's privileged, she's gorgeous and she knows it. And so I thought, well, that's the accent for me. I don't know if that's even a term that young people would know anymore, the old Sloane Rangers. They're not really around anymore, but they were definitely around in the 80s when I was young, when I was living in the UK. And so it was that sort of, I've got a pony, I've got a Porsche kind of thing. And Tass Tass became Toss Toss. And there were certainly lines that I changed in rehearsal. I kind of can't believe it now, that the amount of input I was allowed to have.

But when we got to lines like in "Popular" where she says how to fix your hair, I'm like, well, British people don't say that. So we changed it to how to do your hair. And that's just one example of little changes that we made to make her feel properly British. And I do think it was, look, there was critical snobbery about Wicked, both in New York and in London. It wasn't nominated for any Oliviers when it opened in London. And we were all like picking out our frocks, but, you know, that just never happened. And then, you know, the joke's on them really, because 20 years later, but I do wonder if it would still be running now if it was a replica and if everyone was doing American accents. Who knows?

Here in Australia, when they do it here, it's all American accents. They don't do so. And so the UK is really I mean, there's European countries, I think, where they do it in their own language. So that's a completely different thing altogether. But yeah, it was there was a lot of leeway. And I know that the idea that the team really wanted the show to be reimagined. They didn't want it to be the same. They wanted it to be redirected. They wanted to have input from the British performers, you know, and that was really incredible for an American show. You know, we still had numbers on the floor, but, you know, but not so much for the characters.

[10:21] William J Connolly: There's also some particular parts in the what is now described by the creative team as a sort of definitive London production that was then pushed out to the US, to Broadway, to the tour, and so on and so forth, is about recreating some of the numbers, in particular, the Ozdust ballroom scene was completely transformed when it came to you and Idina and the London cast creating it, where I know that Winnie wanted to create certain bits of dialogue in Act Two with the wizard and with Elphaba. And we got to see just new parts of it, like for example, the removal of the hat at the very beginning when you descend in "No More Mourns the Wicked." And then you have different parts of dialogue, which, again, feels so right and feels in the world of Wicked now, but was really definitive to your creation and to you and the creative team getting to do that.

What was it like being with those, that level of creative team, which are described so often as sort of the masters of creating this perfect musical? What was it like getting to have them as colleagues and them to say to you, you know, Helen, what do you think? What do you think about this moment? And in particular, doing those scenes opposite the lady who had all...

[11:19] William J Connolly: So, Helen, you've also won the Tony for that very particular role as well. No pressure.

[11:22] Helen Dallimore: Yeah, yeah, I know. If she hadn't been so bloody lovely, I would have been absolutely shitting myself. And the same with the team, really. I mean, Stephen is just the most gorgeous, warm, delightful man. And Winnie is wonderful, too. But I've had a lot more to do with Stephen over the years. And he's always been so kind to me and just supportive in every possible way. And, you know, it's a level of team that I had never really experienced in my life because I didn't come from a commercial musical world. I came from an acting background and mostly straight plays. So it was all new to me. And I was just kind of just crossing my fingers and trying to be funny, which is how I've gotten through life.

[12:14] William J Connolly: You are incredibly funny. And I guess that's one of the things that, you know, you can bring 100 percent to is the ability to be able to create this comedy when it needs to happen. And I imagine that that's a wonderful thing for you to have in your arsenal and to be able to create in a show that is familiar to people. There is that level of expectation, as we said, but also there is this new beginning. There's this new world for Wicked and the English accent is such an interesting thing because now it feels like commonplace and it feels like something that's, oh, she does it in an English accent. But there was only ever the album. There was only ever Kristin in her American accent and there was nobody else.

There was no other slight squeak. There was no other slight interpretation. It was just sort of straight Glinda, Kristin, turn away to the end. And you made a decision to honor that so beautifully, but also do your thing, which becomes the genius of the comedy as well. So what was it like changing it? And it feels so fickle to say, like from American to English, but what was it like with the accent change, like musically, because things sit differently. Your placement is different. And what was it like doing that opposite Adina, who had a very staunch, hard American accent as well? Did you clash ever? Like, did it ever become a bit of a almost creative issue?

[13:21] Helen Dallimore: No, she loved it. You know, she'd done the show plenty of times and I think she relished the opportunity to breathe some fresh life into it and to have a new challenge. And, you know, singing wise, Kristin's got so much twang in her belt range. She's got such an American twang sound. She also has a yodel, which she uses a lot in "Popular," for instance. And that didn't feel right for me with the accent to use a yodel. So I didn't do that. I don't know if the girls have since, but I just decided that that wasn't going to work with the accent. And, you know, working through it, I was just very careful not to sound like Julie Andrews because I was thinking that's not quite right. It's something else.

It's younger. It's not, she's not as, how can I put it politely, erudite. You know, Glinda's a more basic kind of person than the sort of posh Julie Andrews character. She's posh but shallow. So it was, it was more, it was each, each sound had to come from the way she would have spoken.

[14:40] William J Connolly: You also got the opportunity to be one of the first people to debut this kind of second part of Wicked in terms of how it looked, because there was this sort of massive upgrade in terms of the space for Wicked. I mean, nobody's ever described the Apollo Victoria Theatre as being an intimate space, shall we say. It's bloody massive. And Stephen was saying the other day, actually, just how huge it is and also how immersive it feels. And also you got the opportunity to wear the now signature Glinda dress, which at the very beginning of the show is kind of this upgraded 2.0 version of it, which is, it's huge. It feels very grand and regal. And when you did make your first descent into the Apollo Victoria Theatre on that first preview, I do believe things didn't go quite as to plan. Is that correct?

[15:21] Helen Dallimore: Yeah, yeah. So firstly, that dress weighs about 20 kilos. It's really heavy. And on top of that, you've got a corset underneath with a harness to be clipped into the bubble and really high shoes. And not to mention the two mic packs that are shoved under everything. It's, you know, you're not popping down to the bottle shop, the off licence for a packet of smokes in that. But yes, so the first night, first previews are always my most dreaded night. Nothing compares to first previews. Opening night's fine. You've had some previews, you know what it is. But in a first preview, you don't know what it is. So, and you don't know how the audience is going to respond and whether that's, you know, especially in a comedy.

Well, it's a comedy for me. It's, you know, not so much for some. But so, you know, the first preview is about hearing what the audience wants to go with, where they want to laugh, all of that sort of thing. So it's nerve wracking as hell. Coupled with the fact that I'm at the top of this enormous stage in the rafters up with the in the grid with the lights for a very long time while everyone gets in and everything, you know, the orchestra plays the overture like I'm up there for a long time. And the ensemble have their stuff downstage and they're like, here she comes. It's Glinda. Look, look out. Here she comes. And that's when the bubble's supposed to come down. And it just didn't move. It just didn't move.

And I was sort of waving helplessly at the ensemble below. And they're like, oh, shit. And they called a show stop and went back. I think they had to reprogram the computer and they went back to the beginning of the show. And we started again. And like this first preview, people had flown from all over the world to see this new version of Wicked. Just so it was it was a hot ticket. And so by the time we got to my descent again and look out, here she comes. And the bubble starts moving down and I'm like breathing a sigh of relief. But the audience was so on side by this stage. And I thought, oh, this is so good because my first line, of course, is it's good to see me, isn't it? Everyone just went insane.

Two thousand people in the Victoria Apollo. Also a lot of very relieved ensemble members underneath me. And it was it was a show stop. It was literally I had to wait for everyone to get over it. How excited they were that I was there. Not as excited as me, but, you know, it probably also destroyed any nerves that you had because you were like, you know, I'm actually just glad to be here now.

[18:20] Helen Dallimore: It did. It did. It totally broke that tension. And because audiences love it when things go wrong because it reminds them that it's live. It reminds it's a visceral reminder of the fact that this is happening in this instance. This is the only time this is ever going to happen this way. And those audience members get to experience that experience that nobody else will ever get to have again, which is what I love about live theater. Now, speaking of unforgettable moments, there is another moment in your wicked journey that I think probably will be one of your favorite times, which was when you, Adina, and the cast got to perform on the Royal Variety Performance. And not only did you have to perform "One Short Day," which is a rather fabulous song, you also had to perform the song in front of royals and the entire world, which was waiting there going, oh, there's some new people doing this show we care a lot about.

This is this is going to be interesting. And you did do "Defying Gravity." You also did all of the lead up to it and also the flying portion as well. What was what was it like when they first said to you, oh, by the way, we're going to do the big one?

[19:34] Helen Dallimore: It's probably more nerve wracking for Adina than for me, because, you know, also with not a regularity, but sometimes the lift doesn't work, you know, and so you're just praying that that is going to be the time that the lift works, because it's all a bit embarrassing when it doesn't work. All the henchmen have to get down on the ground and pretend that she's going in the air and we're all lying down on the ground, kind of, you know, giving offers, desperately giving offers to her as she's just standing there. So, but it was totally surreal to, you know, doing it for royalty, meeting royalty afterwards. And of course, that was before he was famous. That was when he was only Prince Charles, the artist, the king formerly known as Prince.

[20:21] William J Connolly: Can I ask you then about the official opening night in London, the time of which all of this became very official, and this was sort of invited press, all of the creatives, friends and family in there as well. What do you remember in particular of that official opening night performance, and the now very infamous response that you got, which was sort of like an absolute riot in terms of the audience reaction?

[20:43] Helen Dallimore: I've never been, I've never before or since had an experience in the theatre like it. It was, you know, you feel like you're the Beatles, sort of, because Wicked fans are a particular kind of musical theatre fans. You know what I mean? There's musical theatre fans and then there's Wicked fans. They are the uber fan. So, opening night was also, it wasn't just papered. It was, you know, there was invites, there was sold tickets as well, which is great, because those are the people who, you know, for whom it's so exciting, the real show fans. They're the ones that, you know, there were people that came back every night. I don't know how they, I don't know what sort of jobs they had that they could afford that, but there was a lottery as well, and people were sleeping on concrete outside the theatre to be there in time to get the lottery tickets the next day. I did that for U2 once, but I don't know if I'd do it for a musical.

[21:46] William J Connolly: I'm now trying to think of all of the things that I would sleep on concrete for. I feel like, I feel like an opening night ticket at Wicked maybe? I don't know. It's a big ask, isn't it?

[21:56] Helen Dallimore: It is. It is. And, you know, we had a very swish party. Like, it was everything, you know. Those were the days when they threw a lot of money at these parties, opening night parties, and that was very special. And my best friend Simon Burke was my squire that night, and he'd flown over especially to be there, which was heaven.

[22:17] William J Connolly: Can I ask you about some of Glinda's more intimate moments? Because so much of her is based around the comedy and the fact that she is so funny, and as you say, like, you think she's incredibly shallow in some regard, and then you realise there's actually great intelligence in others. But what was it also like getting to have some of the scene partners you mentioned? Miriam Margolyes, of course, Idina, we also have like Nigel in there as well. These are like incredibly serious, credible...

[23:39] William J Connolly: With Elphaba and Glinda, they kind of yin and yang and they swap over several times, I think, throughout the show in terms of who you think is really being good and who's being self-centred or who's being ambitious. Ambition's another really strong theme in the play. I say it's a comedy, but of course, it's much more than that. And so heartbreaking. I remember the parts of Act Two where she has her heart broken by Fiero and you have to go there. You can't fake that stuff. You've got to make him laugh, make him cry, and you won't have a successful show, even if it's a musical. Some people might be disparaging about musicals, but the difference between a good one and a bad one is whether or not those arcs are really fully formed and the performers are really going there with truth.

Also, I think one of the bits of your performance I remember is like, you know, the sort of the scream that Glinda does just before "No Good Deed" when she shouts Fiero as he's being taken off. I remember you had such a huge scream and shout and it was almost like it was right from the depth of your stomach. You could tell that it was incredibly real because it was like she at this point in the show doesn't know what to do. And I feel like that's such a good example of just a singular line that shows that she's desperate. She doesn't know what to do and actually it's all falling apart because she's got her two great loves in her life, both him and her, running away. And it's those sorts of moments where you realise it's got so much punch.

And I guess you were also trying at that moment to hand over the baton to Idina to go, I know you've got a marathon of a song coming up as well that's got to have somewhere to go. It's great teamwork between you two as well.

[25:40] Helen Dallimore: Yeah, and we were a terrific team and it always felt just so incredibly supportive and electric. I have to say, there was never a show that I wasn't electrified by being on stage with her. And the chemistry between us on stage was just magic. And you don't have that all the time. And it was so wonderful for that incredible opportunity in my career to have an onstage partner who was equal to the magnificence of the opportunity. Do you know what I mean?

[26:12] William J Connolly: You also did get the very best seats in the house, night after night after night. You know what I'm going to ask about? What was it like when you'd done all your singing bits, you knew you'd made it through part one and you then got to stand there and just think, I get to watch Tony-winning Idina Menzel sing the biggest song in musical theatre eight fricking times a week. I mean, honestly, it was, and every night she took my breath away. Every night I had tears rolling down my face because I'm like, how do you even do that? How does it, how does it, what is the mechanics of your biology that you're able to do that after night flawlessly? It was just, she's a machine. What can I say? There's really never been a voice like it.

[27:00] William J Connolly: Your very famous curtain call speech, which went viral at the time of how much you loved her and respected her and that she was quite truly the toast of the town, I think was testament to the fact that this was a journey for both of you. And I think that in that speech, if I remember rightly, you say like, you know, Idina would be forgiven for coming back to this project being like, I've already done this. I've won an award. This is just another chapter. And she wasn't like that. And I feel like that is the secret to all of the success of Wicked, is that everybody entered into it with a good heart. Do you think that's one of the reasons why you got the pleasure of finding your feet? And she also went on that journey and actually it became the great success that it was with you.

And then of course, with Kerry, who came in when Idina left in December, when you got to go on the journey all over again, but this time with a British accent, you got someone that wasn't American, which probably changed the game all over again.

[27:44] Helen Dallimore: Yeah, it was amazing. And I think you're absolutely right. Audiences respond to truth. And I think when you can see performers that have chemistry, it really makes you see that people genuinely love each other. It kind of does make a difference. And I agonised over that speech. It might have looked off the cuff, but when they, again, another great responsibility when the producers asked me to make her farewell goodbye speech to Idina, I thought, wow, that's a huge responsibility. I knew it would be filmed and go viral. I knew it would be there forever in posterity. And I also, for my own self, for my friendship with her, wanted to do the right thing by her and bestow the right amount of authenticity and honour on her that I had in my heart.

So, and also be really funny because otherwise it wouldn't have been me. And then, of course, the lovely Kerry, who had the unenviable task of stepping into a role that had been created by the other person. And then she got her chance to create her British Elphaba, which is, you know, another towering achievement of the production. And that's another legacy that she made that her own. And I'm sure there are Elphabas all down the line over the last 20 years that her imprint is still on their performances.

[29:26] William J Connolly: There are also performances in the West End, and I know that you are going to be coming over to London very, very shortly for this 20th anniversary. And I imagine there will be parts of the gorgeous Zizi Strallen, who's playing Glinda at the minute, her performance, that you recognise bits that you did, that you were part of saying, I like that, or let's try this. What do you think it's going to be like for you sitting in that audience, returning home, which I hope it feels like, but also being like, I remember this show, I remember that part, and I remember doing that.

[29:54] Helen Dallimore: I cannot wait. I am so excited. I'm so thrilled that I can come over and be there. And I'm so excited to see the show and just to see how the Chinese whispers of my performance from 20 years ago has been passed down through the line. And if there's anything left of it, if I think, oh, well, that's a gesture I did, or that's an incident, I'm sure that all of the wonderful actresses have made it their own. But I'd be very curious to see what, if there's any hint of Dallimore in there, I think it'll be fascinating. We speak so much in Wicked about a handprint on a heart and how much, you know, people can change people's lives forever. But it feels like every person that gets the pleasure of playing these roles always talk about one thing with Wicked that stays with them always. What's your one thing of Wicked? What's your handprint on your heart? What's the thing that you always think, I know that's the Wicked effect, that's the Glinda in me that never quite left?

[31:00] Helen Dallimore: For me, it's about female love, friendship. The very intense and beautiful, supportive, complex love between two female friends, that's the thing that has stayed with me. And I think that's the thing that affects audiences, is that depiction of the love between two people, despite ambition, jealousy, everything else, machinations, the powers that be, that that love carries them through and wins it out in the end, even through death or supposed death. It's that love that ties them together and makes them ultimately do the right thing, I think.

[31:47] William J Connolly: Certainly, Glinda. And very finally, if you think back to 2006 and that very first day of rehearsals when, you know, as you say, and I think very rightly sometimes, like ignorance in the real world actually probably played a part in you leaning in because you weren't quite aware of just how huge this moment was going to be, which I absolutely would be the same. I'd be like, it's a really small show. But actually, in that moment, if you think about you and Helen sat in that rehearsal room, going, well, this is cool. This is going to be amazing. And hopefully this will be a great job for me. If you think about the journey of Wicked so far and how it has touched your life in so many different ways, and the fact that you feel, as you so beautifully described in this interview, about Wicked 20 years on, what do you think that Helen back then would think of the lady that's been sat here with still so much love for this show?

And the fact that the baby that you helped create in London and define and created a blueprint for is not only being honoured on stage, but is also going to show you so much love this time next week. What would she think of this moment right now?

[32:48] Helen Dallimore: Look, I think that she would be immensely proud. I think that she would think it's, you know, that she'd done the right thing, that she'd done a good job and had a life-changing experience that could be described as nothing less than a stratospheric success.

[33:13] William J Connolly: Helen, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for giving me some of your time. And most importantly, congratulations. I cannot believe it's been 20 years since we got to see that iconic Glinda performance. So thank you so much for going through all with me. And most importantly, have the most epic time next week. I cannot wait to see you in person and to give you a massive hug, but just thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And congratulations on 20 years of Wicked.

[33:34] Helen Dallimore: Thank you so much, William. Lovely talking to you again.