This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jennifer Apple: Hello.

[0:01] Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:04] I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, a multi-hyphenate actor, educator, acting coach, writer, dog mom, and founder of this vibrant community that champions artists as they carve out their own unique paths in this wild industry.

[0:17] Whether you're just starting out in the thick of it or seeking a bit of artistic fuel to expand your toolbox, you're in the right place.

[0:24] In this space, we'll have honest conversations, share actionable strategies, tips, and resources, and delve into the messy yet beautiful journey of living a sustainable creative life.

[0:34] We unmask the reality of life as an artist, from navigating career highs and lows to nurturing your full human well-being.

[0:42] I chat with women and non-binary guests who share their personal stories, helpful learnings, and hearts to help you unlock your artistic potential, expand your knowledge, and show up fully and fearlessly in your artistry and daily life.

[0:55] Before we dive into this week's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

[1:01] If today's chat resonates with you, please leave us a review.

[1:04] It helps us reach even more incredible artists just like you.

[1:07] And hey, feel free to spread the love.

[1:09] Share this podcast with a friend or post it on your socials, making sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can chat with you there.

[1:18] All right, grab a cup of something cozy, settle in, and let's get to it.

[1:23] How can one lead a theater artistically, logistically, sustainably, all with deep humanity?

[1:28] In this episode of our Artistic Director mini-series, I chat with Maria Manuela Goyanes, current Artistic Director of the Woolly Mammoth Theatre and incoming Artistic Director of LCT3 at Lincoln Center, for an honest conversation about what it takes to run a cultural institution with integrity.

[1:44] Maria offers wisdom on assessing risk in today's theater ecology, why comedy and community are essential tent poles for new audiences, and how she reframes leadership as a form of abundance, not scarcity.

[1:56] Together, we discuss how to build meaningful community engagement, reimagine institutional best practices, develop sustainable career pipelines, and say yes to bold, risky theater that centers innovation and joy.

[2:08] This episode reminds us that there is no one model of leadership, and that the most revolutionary thing you can do is bring your full human self to the table.

[2:16] Enjoy.

[2:17] Maria Manuela Goyanes, welcome to the space.

[2:20] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Hello.

[2:21] Thanks for having me.

[2:22] Excited to be here.

[2:23] Jennifer Apple: So grateful you're here.

[2:25] For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:27] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Oh Lord.

[2:30] Sometimes it stumps us.

[2:31] It's like a big one, I know.

[2:33] Well, it's the today, right?

[2:35] Uh-huh.

[2:36] Um, I am currently the artistic director of Woolly Mammoth Theatre Company here in Washington, DC.

[2:44] That's where I am right now, um, in my office.

[2:47] And I am also the incoming artistic director of LCT3 and producer of Lincoln Center Theater.

[2:54] I'll start that in September.

[2:56] Um, I'm also the primary caregiver for my parents who are in Jamaica, Queens.

[3:01] That's where I'm from.

[3:02] Um, so it's a great universe kiss moment for me to be going back to New York to be able to have not just time to be with them and help them through, but also to work at a great theater like Lincoln Center too.

[3:15] Although it is somewhat bittersweet because I love Woolly Mammoth.

[3:18] And yeah, yeah, there's still a lot of lot to do in Washington, DC at this moment in time.

[3:24] Let me just tell you.

[3:25] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I can imagine that that has been an interesting, maybe is the word, an interesting navigation.

[3:33] That's maybe that's the PC word to use in this current juncture in time.

[3:38] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah.

[3:39] Um, you have had such an incredible breadth of a career that has touched through some of, I'd say, like the largest and well-known institutions in our theatrical community.

[3:53] Do you mind doubling back a little bit and sharing your artistic origin story as I guess we'd like to call it?

[4:00] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Happy to.

[4:01] Um, I well, I grew up in Jamaica, Queens.

[4:06] Um, my dad was a mechanic for the MTA, he fixed the buses, um, yeah, for 35 years.

[4:13] And my mom um is a kindergarten teacher um at PS 182, at PS117, you know, those places in Queens.

[4:24] Um, they met at a church dance in Jackson Heights, Queens.

[4:29] My dad is from Spain and my mom's from the Dominican Republic.

[4:32] Um, it's one of the reasons why I say I'm a caregiver.

[4:35] Um, because most of my family is still in Spain and in the Dominican Republic.

[4:40] I have some family scattered around here, but really, um, you know, anyway.

[4:45] So the um, I appreciate you naming that though, because I think, you know, it's something that so many of us, either currently or eventually, will probably in some way or other fall into that category of caregiving for either folks, relatives, siblings, partners, and you know, the responsibility and frankly emotional responsibility, even beyond just the physical necessities involved with that is something that I think so many of us uh don't name just because it doesn't there isn't like a an official job title or a pay rate that goes with it, and yet it's arguably like one of the most thankless, unforgiving and demanding jobs anyone could ever have while obviously continuing to do other real jobs.

[5:29] So thank you for like calling that into the space too.

[5:32] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Oh yeah, of course.

[5:34] I mean, um, I feel very lucky that I have a good relationship with my folks.

[5:39] A lot of people don't, you know what I mean?

[5:41] And so um, it just feels like a duty that I've got to, you know, that that was always sort of in the cards in some ways because again, just how I grew up um being the first generation here in the United States with me and my sister, and my sister's on the West Coast, although she comes in as much as she can um to help uh as well.

[6:01] Um, so I consider us both, you know, primary caregivers in that way we make decisions together and things like that.

[6:08] And I um, so yeah, um, I feel lucky that I don't have kids because now my parents are essentially that.

[6:17] Um, and uh although I have a lot of young people in my life, um, and feel lucky for that as well.

[6:25] Yeah, uh, but you know, for me the theater sort of happened.

[6:28] I went to Bronx High School of Science and um, I was a real bookworm, and it was in an English class that actually our um teacher, Miss Blatner, um, brought us to Manhattan Theater Club um to go see a show.

[6:42] That was my first professional play was um Blue Window by Craig Lucas.

[6:47] Um, and I just was like, wow, this is amazing.

[6:50] Allison Janney was in it, it was like, oh my gosh.

[6:53] Wow, wow.

[6:53] Um, and I um, I just felt you know that sort of weird vocational calling and stuff.

[7:00] I'm a I'm an older sister, I like to tell people what to do.

[7:03] So the thought of being in the theater and being able to be a director or do something like that's really exciting.

[7:09] And then um, you know, they brought us also to the Roundabout, and so I just sort of got involved in some of the education department activities there and did some workshops and forced my parents to come with me to do them and wow you know as a young person ask you know really made sure that I could usher Cabaret with Alan Cumming and Natasha Richardson like as many times as I possibly could this off Marshall production I loved it I loved it so much um and so when I went to I went to Brown and I thought that I would um study English or do something like that and I got pretty pretty quickly into the student theater there um one of them is uh you know the one that's student run um it's called Production Workshop it's still there it's really fantastic um and the people who I met there and the people you know so many of the people who were connected to Production Workshop are making a living in the theater still to this day it's like so so thrilling um so I um I feel like I got to theater late because when I got there were so many people who had been doing theater in high school and doing theater and I really got to got into it really towards my junior and senior year of high school and did wasn't really ever in like a major productions or any of that kind of stuff.

[8:27] And really sort of got involved in it way way more in college.

[8:31] But I still didn't think I was gonna like actually major in it.

[8:34] I think that's one of the reasons why I feel like the constellation of stars that sort of created my life and my you know is just um there's another there's an alternate universe where I went to like Baruch, you know, and stayed in Queens and like got a master's in business and like worked at a bank and like had a bunch of kids and you know what I mean?

[8:56] Yeah.

[8:56] And I and I see that universe.

[8:58] I like very, very clearly see that universe.

[9:01] And I um, and so it just also feels like wow, look at what I've been able to do.

[9:01] Look at what I've been able to be able to yeah, be around and help and help in whatever way I can make happen.

[9:15] So I um I got an internship at Trinity Rep when I graduated, and that's where I met Oscar Eustace.

[9:22] I actually had met him the year before because he had taught a dramaturgy class, and um he gave me my first professional job at Trinity Rep.

[9:30] Amazing, which was insane.

[9:32] Um, I was like 22, they paid me something like I don't know, eighteen thousand dollars a year or twenty-two.

[9:39] This is like this is two thousand and two.

[9:41] This is arguably like it hasn't even grown that much, so it's just like gave me a high floating title.

[9:50] Wow, okay.

[9:50] So I I was suddenly the associate producer at Trinity Repertory Company in Providence, Rhode Island, which is a major regional theater.

[9:57] Yeah.

[9:57] But you know, I don't drive, I'm from Jamaica, Queens, I still don't really want to drive.

[10:02] And so I left and I I was like, Mom, I'm gonna live in your basement, mom and dad, I'm gonna live in your basement.

[10:10] And if it if it doesn't work in a year, I'll get the real job, you know?

[10:15] Yeah.

[10:15] Every kid's had this conversation.

[10:18] You know, it's really lucky to be able to do that.

[10:20] That, you know, even Jamaica Queens is not, you know, it's not that far from an end.

[10:24] It's not, you know, you can actually, you know, do stuff.

[10:27] And that was the year that 13P started.

[10:31] I, you know, did stuff at the O'Neal, I did stuff at Williamstown.

[10:34] I just got to meet a whole bunch of people.

[10:36] And it was um almost a year to the day, weirdly, this is how the universe works, that um George Wolf hired me at the public.

[10:44] Wow.

[10:44] Wow.

[10:45] Yeah.

[10:46] Crazy towns.

[10:48] And I um, and I was just like, this is um, this is where I want to be.

[10:54] I had heard of the public.

[10:55] I really, really wanted to work there just because of the lore and the ideas, and also just like the gift to New York City.

[11:00] I really feel like very connected to cities, period.

[11:04] Just like um, and and it, you know, I feel like um I grew up there.

[11:11] I grew up with 13P and I grew up at the public.

[11:14] It's about 14 and a half years there.

[11:16] Wow.

[11:16] Um, and then realized that like maybe I could, maybe I could run something.

[11:21] I didn't really actually think that I wanted to just go, you know, I didn't put my hand in the ring for a lot of things because I love the public and I love what it stands for.

[11:31] And I felt like I could still do more things.

[11:34] But when Woolly Mammoth came up and the headhunter called Greg Candel, who may you rest in peace, he really loved Woolly and really was just a wonderful human um to me, at least in like um, I thought, wow, this is a theater with a risk profile that is so exciting to me.

[11:54] And I and in the middle of Washington, DC, and at the time it was the first Trump administration.

[12:00] Yeah.

[12:00] So I was like, let's do this.

[12:02] Let's do this.

[12:05] Um, and so that's how I got here.

[12:08] Jennifer Apple: Wow.

[12:09] Um, thank you for sharing all of that.

[12:11] Um, anybody who's listened to this podcast for a while, like knows I love to hear these stories, just to continue um naming how it there is no one right way to do this, nor is there singly one way to do this.

[12:24] And how, and certainly within this mini-series to really hear how all these folks have gotten to the same title of a position with all sorts of backgrounds.

[12:36] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um, and obviously there's like maybe an ethos overlap or like a vision overlap or um a work ethic overlap, but those are just more like qualities about a human rather than the job. Um, and so I love hearing how it all came to be. I'm curious though, for you, why it went on the um, I'd say I'm gonna call it leadership side of it rather than the like in the like the weeds of the doing. So like the actor, the sound, the lights, like why for you was that the calling?

[13:08] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Well, so when I was at Brown, I directed the senior slot, and I was, you know, I acted some. I was like, I like to say I was typecast as Kate in Taming of the Shrew. Um, and then I it's like, no more. This is easy roll for me. Um the the but I really loved directing the, you know, thinking about things in that way, and I um and I still think about things like that visually and like movement and you know, um, what the overall story is, the thinking is, and but there came a point when I was at Trinity Rep, uh there was sort of there was a moment when actually I had this flirtation about going to Washington DC then, which is funny. I had gotten into the Alan Lee Hughes fellowship program at Arena Stage under Molly Smith.

Um, and um, and I had um, and it was for a director, dramaturg, fellowship kind of thing. But then I also had this offer to be the associate producer at Trinity Rep, and I was like, should I take the bird in hand here or go? I mean, it was also another kind of bird in hand, a different kind of bird. Basically, what I thought of was this. I was like, okay, if I continue to direct and do this in DC and go, say, to grad school or something like that. Yeah, I will need to live out of a suitcase for a while. I will have to take any gig that comes to me because it's important, regardless of if I like the play or not. And I wasn't one of those people, and I really, really admired these people who could read a play as a director and personalize it right away and find their way into it and find their way to why it is that they needed to do this project and what they could bring to it.

I was like, I don't really want to see my production of Moon for the Miss Begotten. Like somebody else should do that. It's a gorgeous play, but it's not the thing that I have to do. I there were plays that I felt like I really wanted to do. I worked on a play by Sylvan Oswald called Plutonics. I worked on Kid Simple by Jordan Harrison, um, you know, all when they were in the graduate program at Brown. I got to, I got to work on Strange Loop when I was a kid, like 24, 25, you know. And I remember having having a moment again when I was working on Strange Loop of like, I love this. And the kind of focus that I am having is more sort of the bigger picture focus, a bigger, you know, um, and the kind of obsession that an artist has to have over the thing that they're working on right at this moment, is a kind of patience and tenacity and obsession that I started to have for the whole.

Wow. I can imagine that there's a moment, there will be a moment in my life where I feel like I want to focus in again. But I don't everybody kept saying, like, oh, most of the people who are in admin or whatever are frustrated actors or frustrated directors or people who didn't get to, you know, I just never felt that way. I just haven't felt that way. Frankly, I was like kind of sometimes, you know, like I was like, this is gonna sound so bad.

[14:06] Jennifer Apple: No, do it.

[14:06] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Like I would direct a reading and I was like bored. Like I'm bored. Because I'm not working on like the marketing and the this and the this and that.

[14:57] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah.

[14:57] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I was like, I think it was more like ADHD coming out. You know what I mean?

[16:35] Jennifer Apple: No, but I think this is I think I think it's uh it's a it's a knowing of oneself. Like it really is. And I think we so many of us maybe judge ourselves for not wanting to do something that maybe we've been told is the way or like is the thing you're supposed to be doing.

[16:51] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Or that you exactly and then it changed.

[16:53] Jennifer Apple: Correct, correct. And you're allowed to change and you're allowed to adjust, and you're allowed to also like reassess what speaks to you. And I think how beautiful for yourself to know yourself well enough to be like, actually, like this is speaking to me, and let me listen to myself, let me follow what actually feels good, as opposed to like trudging through this thing at like a sync cost of it all of like, but I or whatever it is, like it's just I think it's so wonderful that you're like, no, I think maybe an immigrant mentality or something like that too. It's like I I just I sort of felt like I was like, okay, so I'm gonna be running around trying to get job after job after job and have a hard time figuring out security versus like, let me just actually have like a steady paycheck and try and make work.

I mean, you know, for most of my time at the public, I was doing 13P at night and doing public during the day, right? So, like, I just I was able to say, Well, I'm gonna get my paycheck doing this, and then I'm gonna pour a lot of heart and soul into this other thing.

[17:56] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, not gonna get paid or not gonna pay that much, or you know what I mean? And be able to make a lot of things happen um that way and get to get to be involved in it. So I wanted more control, and I don't feel like artists have that much. You as an actor, you really have to wait um, you know, until you get your own production company, until you can put stuff together, until you even directors, you just sort of have to sort of chase the thing until you get to a point where you can actually decide or say no to things. It just takes a while. And that's not to say that um it has anything to do with talent, it's just is you know, trust of like artist to artists, people knowing each other, knowing their work, knowing that it's gonna be the right person in the room.

[18:47] Jennifer Apple: I know. I love that you named that. So thank you.

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[19:30] Jennifer Apple: And so with your quote unquote more stable job choice, let's move to Woolly Mammoth. How was it to finally fully like lead lead, not you know, be in conjunction with the leadership and obviously like in that making decisions, but like this is it's happening under your leadership. How was that adjustment for you?

[19:48] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah. So I followed a really wonderful human being, Howard Cowitz. And I thought to myself, one of the main reasons why I said yes to Woolly was because I was following Howard Cowitz. Because he is a mensch. And I could call him up and talk to him and be in community with him. If somebody called him and was like, what's Maria doing? He'd call me. He wouldn't be like, Yeah, I don't know. You know, he just is a mensch. And I thought this is the person who I want to follow and learn how to be in this position with.

[20:27] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah. Um, and so I felt really um it was hard, okay. Like the beginning, and it still is, it always is hard because you have people's livelihoods on your shoulders in a different kind of way, right? Ultimately, it's hard to sleep at night if you're not selling tickets or not making your income goals for contributed revenue. You're it's it becomes difficult because you really I don't want to let people down, and I and their livelihood means something to me. And I want people to stay in the theater, and like those decisions, the decisions that you know I make on the state for the stage or for whatever really have a direct impact a lot of the time.

[21:12] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So I feel like I mean there's a lot of things that I feel like I got wrong um that I would do differently um and I also look back and I and I think like it was it's also felt like one of the most exciting challenges ever you know I'm the kind of person who when I see a my full calendar and it's like back to back meetings I'm like look at who I'm getting to meet look at what I'm getting to do. This is so exciting oh my god this morning I did this in the evening I did this oh my god I'm not oppressed by that kind of workload I'm not a I don't feel oppressed by the kind of like time like oh my god I don't have time I'm I'm more of a work life integrator than a compartmentalizer no knock on anybody who needs to be a compartmentalizer wants to be a compartmentalizer but for me it's the way because it feels more vocational to me I do feel like it's I want to be able to in the middle of the day you know go to a museum with a donor and hang out with them and like you know go to a happy hour with an artist or whatever and have this sort of like life kind of flow kind of thing with my with the with the work that I do sometimes it it gets unhealthy for sure um and I've sort of been learning that but I think that we talk about coming to Woolly I think that was one of the biggest things was how am I spending my time and how is it most effective and I don't know that I did I feel like I did a lot of things that were not that effective or met with a lot of people who didn't ultimately, you know, received come through.

[22:53] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um, and have gotten better at like, well, yes, I'm gonna go to the museum, but I'm not I'm not gonna spend an hour and a half doing it with you. Maybe it's gonna be more like a half an hour, and then with this other person, it'll be something else. You know what I'm saying? It's like you just get better at those things. So I just really felt like I was just it it felt like more about um just trying to get the fullest lay of the land as quickly as I possibly could, and um and again, that was exciting, but I feel like you know, there were probably there's probably more strategy that I probably could have could have could have used at that time.

[23:34] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Part of me is like, maybe you're right. And the other part of me is like, that's just you being humble. You know, I think everybody can always quote unquote improve at everything that we're doing, and frankly, that is the learning curve of doing something for the first time. Like if we just somehow came out of the thing and just knew exactly how to run. Well, Renee Brown calls it what the FFTs fucking first times.

[23:54] Jennifer Apple: I don't know if you're supposed to exactly.

[23:55] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, no, you can curse as much as you want, a thousand percent. I also when I coach clients, I always talk about it like the first pancake, where it's like when you, you know, you do your monologue. Yeah, you you do the monologue for the first time, and like it's totally fine.

[24:07] Jennifer Apple: It's edible, right?

[24:08] Maria Manuela Goyanes: But it's a look like the pancake that you envision when you look at a pancake. No, you're gonna totally use that.

[24:12] Jennifer Apple: That's it.

[24:14] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Totally feel it. Yeah, it's a first pancake, you know. It's it's still edible, but like you want a round circled pancake at some point.

[24:21] Jennifer Apple: Um same vibe.

[24:23] Jennifer Apple: And I, you know, I so I guess you have named it vaguely. Now that you've been in the routine of it, and obviously as you are transitioning to a new institution with it. What are some of the things that you'd say define the way in which you operate an artistic director journey? Like, is it obviously the balancing of the work life integration, which I love that phrasing. Um but in terms of like your responsibilities, um, at least within Woolly, the way in which the totem pole, you know, operates, like what exactly has that been or is that for you?

[25:00] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I really think I I really appreciate this question. I feel like I could talk to you about it for hours and hours.

[25:19] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So I um feel like I had a false sort of start and then had to sort of like figure out how to with Emma Gae at the time, who's the managing director, who did great like work on this too, and like with the different staff, like trying to actually sort of move through that and uh sort of deal with a kind of recovery from that pandemic now five years on that is just really lagging, at least for um uh Woolly, um even amidst getting the Tony Award in 2022, like even amidst high highs, you know?

[26:03] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and I think part of that has to do with um how do you assess risk?

[26:10] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Okay, and I think I assessed risk differently and assess risk differently now than I did before.

[26:17] Jennifer Apple: What would you say was the prior and the current?

[26:20] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, I still feel this way. Where I actually think that coming out of the pandemic, I was I was too risky.

[26:29] Jennifer Apple: How?

[26:30] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, weird. I don't feel that I didn't feel that way at the time. I feel like I we had really clear uh partnerships and collaborations and ideas about how to bring more people to the table and other things. And I think that, you know, when I got to Woolly, I I really had a hard time talking about it like a regional theater because I didn't think of it that way. I thought of it as like a an incubator for the country. I thought of it as like, you know, a place that you can do R&D and think about form in different ways, and you know, the idea that we would do things that nobody else would do, right? That you get to see something here. Strange Loop ended up being that, right? Like other people weren't doing it.

So I was like, I guess we have to do it, you know, um, after the Playwrights Rising's P73 production, you know. So just basically having a space or f having uh, you know, the ability to be like, okay, well, if it's not gonna go mainstream, we'll do it, you know. Um and now I feel like, and when I say it was too risky or I was too risky, now I feel like I do think of Woolly more like a regional theater. And that's not a bad thing.

[27:53] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, but it's a different thing, which means that it needs more tent poles that are projects that will be revenue generating because nothing makes money.

[28:03] Maria Manuela Goyanes: But when I say revenue generating, I mean like so when I say nothing makes money, what I mean is it's very hard for us to in a 250-seat house to see some kind of profit after expenses in any way, shape, or form when you're really looking at expenses. It's very difficult.

[28:19] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[28:20] Maria Manuela Goyanes: You know, when you put my time and other people's time in. Maybe direct expenses we can get there, but it's not easy. Um, especially if you're doing new plays, untested plays that people haven't heard of, right?

[28:29] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[28:30] Maria Manuela Goyanes: You know, I remember hearing Oscar talk about tent poles and other folks talk about tent poles. What are the tent poles of the season? And I remember really bucking against that and being like, what do you mean a tent pole? At Woolly Mammoth, no one's gonna know the plays. Nobody knows is gonna know the play, right? Usually like it's trying to try something new. And again, now I feel I feel like it's so much harder to get people to a come to a downtown in a city period right now, right? Those the downtowns of cities have really emptied out. There's still a ton of empty space here. Um here in Washington, the last statistic I heard was 113,000 people, federal workers just lost their jobs.

[29:13] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[29:14] Maria Manuela Goyanes: That was our audience, right? Um I don't know what's gonna happen with the funding. Um, you know, DC's not a state. So our quote unquote state funding is from the federal government.

[29:26] Jennifer Apple: Yep.

[29:27] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So what is that gonna mean? So my uh assessing risk is different now. And so I am thinking about tent poles, or I am thinking about quote unquote revenue generating projects, projects that get closer to actually helping to pay for themselves and or pay for other things. And that's um just it's just simply not how I thought about it before in the same way.

[29:53] Jennifer Apple: Do you have feelings about that shift for you personally?

[29:58] Maria Manuela Goyanes: May I ask those?

[30:00] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah, of course.

[30:01] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Of course. Um, what's interesting to me about it is because I come from New York, you know, the kind of experimental theater that Woolly has done or traditionally has done is not to me even close to the kind of experimental theater that I saw at like Collapsible Giraffe, National Theater of the United States of America, the Worcester Group, like Elevator Repair Service. Like even though Elevator Repair Service has done a show at Woolly and like it was a great show or Uendo, that was like every once in a while playing with form. And I think that was one of the things that I really wanted to do is play with form here too. It's not just about the plays that are with the meaty subjects that nobody's talking about, but told linearly.

It's also about how we think about, you know, the structure of the play and how somebody comes to that structure and the form playing, you know, helping people understand something about themselves also. And um, and what I realized is that form is very hard to deal with. Um, it's very it's considered very experimental to not have basically a play that looks like other plays.

[31:11] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, it really is, and that's nuts to me.

[31:15] Maria Manuela Goyanes: And so that's the part that makes me annoyed. It really makes me very frustrated because I go, this is the beauty of the theater. If you want something to look like Netflix or look like HBO or look like whatever, you know, you can see those things elsewhere.

[31:18] Jennifer Apple: Correct.

[31:18] Maria Manuela Goyanes: The beauty of the theater is you can play with time and space.

[31:33] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[31:33] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Or we we I hate the word should, but like we should be able to do that, is probably the But I think that we're we're a country that is so driven by Hollywood and the you know, and all of these things that that's that's our milieu, right? So we're watching these things and we're watching how they end. Even the most exciting TV shows, even the most exciting movies, that kind of stuff that are mainstream still tend to have either a they just are Aristotelian, they have a specific sort of like going forward, going backward, doing you know, but they don't really play with form in the same kind of way.

[32:09] Jennifer Apple: Um Black Mirror does a I guess a bit.

[32:12] Maria Manuela Goyanes: There's some. Did you watch Adolescence also?

[32:14] Jennifer Apple: Not yet.

[32:15] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I cannot wait. I cannot wait. I could do a whole podcast series just about my feelings of that. I mean, that I mean it's linear in that like we're moving forward, but just simply the fact that it's like one take per episode is like that is shifting form in a way that it's like, why have we not done this as an artistic feat?

[32:32] Jennifer Apple: Well, I remember when they did it at Birdman. I remember they did it right for the movie.

[32:36] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, there was like 10 minutes to try like an hour of this stuff, and like we're talking about like some of these, it's it's actually it's theater on screen. It's really the the swap of what we've we have. It's like you are having rehearsal and the crew is moving like a dance around these actors, and vice versa, and they're playing together and there's clearly a necessary collaboration. For me, it's like, oh, right, this is the reminder of like what's possible. But I mean, this is a tangent, but it's just it's it's reiterating that form.

[33:06] Maria Manuela Goyanes: It's exactly the it's exactly what I've been so when I say I took too many risks, I think that's part of it, you know, played with form a little bit too much. In my mind, I was thinking about Mount Aesthetic innovation and moving those conversations forward for like, you know, I was always so proud when somebody said, Holy ma'am, it's a theater person's theater. And then I was like, Yes, so we should make everybody be a theater person right yeah yeah but what I'm thinking about and dealing with is the fact that everybody isn't a theater person so how do you actually bring them in to begin with yeah and um sometimes form is not the way playing with form is not the way to do that.

[33:26] Jennifer Apple: What would you say then are these tent poles that now at least in the back of your mind or as you're gonna be transitioning to Lincoln Center like these are things that you're now like okay my tent probably needs these or I need to be more cognizant of these tent poles.

[33:58] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah Lincoln Center is super different though Lincoln Center is like not the same I mean yeah it's um talk about a massive platform right it's like you know you can go places all over the world and people know what Lincoln Center is. Let me tell you they don't know what Woolly Mammoth is except for an extinct animal but like you know um Lincoln Center is a very different kind of platform.

[34:25] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[34:25] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Well anyway so uh in the tent poles in terms of Woolly you're thinking about tent poles for Woolly I think like comedy has always been very very key and um I have wanted to create more space for folks who are in the comedy world to actually move and be more fluid in the theater world. So I think next season we're gonna do something like that. I think part of what I think of a tent pole is that there are like many concentric circles of audiences that can be connected to it right and would want to come and when I mean audiences, I don't mean as much like we're bringing the African American audience to the African American play. No, yeah. I don't mean that. I mean like, although cultural connections certainly are real for sure.

But what I mean is like, you know, comedy has people who go see comedy, right? Literally. And there's an overlap with people who go see theater, but there are a bunch of people who go see comedy who don't go to the theater, right? And vice versa, theatrical folks, not maybe not necessarily going to see you know, comedians or musical theater is like this too. Mean, you know, there's a bunch of people who go to musical theater who don't go to see straight plays, yeah, and don't know anything really about straight plays. There's like another concentric circle. So when I say temple, my definition is that there are circles of audience members, and the way that um you know, a lot of other theaters in New York and elsewhere do it, they do it based on casting, right?

They go Lupita Nyong'o is an amazing actor and has her own fan base. That's as that's a good circle of audience that's gonna come see this play, in addition to whatever the play's about, in addition to if it's a musical or a play or a Shakespeare or whatever, in addition to right, yeah.

[36:11] Maria Manuela Goyanes: And for me, you know, I um I've always been of the mind of like, you know, if you talk about the play, if you read the play ahead of time, if you have a good conversation about it, chances it are you're gonna get something out of it. Like I love the fact that not everybody likes Woolly Mammoth's plays because we all talk about them and we go, yeah, one of them was fucking great, I loved it. Then two of them I saw the world in a different way, and three like these other two, I freaking you know, my friend liked them, but I was like, what the hell? What are we doing? You know, yeah. And I think um, for me, like, how do we keep doing that kind of how do we keep that kind of spirit of it's not a thumbs up or a thumbs down? It's a conversation.

[37:00] Jennifer Apple: Yes, it's a conversation, and that you go, well, what was the artist wanting? What was the artist thinking about? What was the you know? And I I feel like you know, other mediums get a lot more benefit of the doubt in this regard, but in the theater, you don't. In the theater, you're like, people are like, You wasted my two hours.

[37:19] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah.

[37:19] Jennifer Apple: And I was like, how many movies have you seen that are shitty?

[37:22] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, or how many hours of reality TV show have I sat through?

[37:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, exactly.

[37:28] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, uh-huh. Like, give me a freaking break. Like, come on, you know, yeah.

[37:31] Maria Manuela Goyanes: You can't get your 13 hours back from watching that TV show that actually was like, you know, horrifying.

[37:36] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, mm-hmm.

[37:37] Maria Manuela Goyanes: That was me. Yeah, so that's the thing that I feel like I just I when I say I want to try and make everybody a theater person, I'm like, there is a way to do this.

[37:45] Maria Manuela Goyanes: And it's it is, but it is high touch, means a lot of more presence and time, means a lot more conversations with different people.

[37:54] Maria Manuela Goyanes: People have to be willing to have the conversation and get to meet each other and talk to each other about it. It's one of the things I've been thinking about with season planning for next year, is like, you know, we do a lot of community conversations, talkbacks, lobby experiences, those kinds of things. And I've just been talking to our associate artistic director, Kristen Jackson, and I was like, maybe instead of all these like you know events that we have over the course of the year, we should actually just get one group, one person to help us do conversations after every show. Why not see what happens? And that's the thing that I feel like at Wooly, we can do. We can experiment in this way, pilot some stuff, do these you know, different kinds of ideas.

Um there's a lot of appetite for that at a place like Wooly, lots of excitement around that, and there still has to be some stability. And so that's where in the temples, like Second City is a great temple, right? They have like a group of people who love Second City and know Second City, you know, and will come to Wooly because they're like theater, but then there's a whole group of people who've never been to Woolly who love Second City, you know?

[39:03] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[39:04] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So at Lincoln Center is different. Lincoln Center is not, you know, I haven't started there yet. Um and um I'm excited. I I know that um Lear's vision of the theater is as expansive as as my vision and my hopes for the theater. And um I am uh I love the fact that Roberta Pereira is at the library. I love the fact that Shanta Thake, who I know from Joe's pub, is at um Link Inc., like you know, Lincoln Center for the Performing Arts. I think there's just a lot of possibility, um, you know, and a lot of dreaming that can happen. And I um and it's a different kind of platform, right? Yeah, and so the kind of risk um of like, yeah, let's just throw all this money into this idea and let's pilot it and that kind of stuff or whatever might look different.

Um, I think I'll be able to do a bunch of cool things for sure, and um, I'm still looking at the ecology of New York City and hoping that I can do anything possible, everything possible to make sure that those more experimental places and more you know woolly-like places in um New York, in my mind, like the flea and soho Rep and Arsnova and all these great still get to do amazing, amazing work. And can I help support that in some ways? And then so that like Lincoln Center then can provide a platform for artists that is more further along in their careers and actually help them, you know.

[40:45] Maria Manuela Goyanes: In my mind, you sort of um how do you take advantage of a place like Lincoln Center, right? If you're doing your first show there ever, it's hard to figure out how to do that. Right. Because, you know, you do a show, that's amazing. You get a show at Lincoln Center, it runs for four weeks, five weeks, and then and then what? And then what? Then what? Um, and to me, like a place like Lincoln Center is well, the then what should be, well, let's tour it. Let's see when the next show that you write will be in the midsee, or are you a Broadway Brown person, maybe one day? Like, can we try and see if that's a as a possibility? And that's really exciting to me because you know, I think that again, it means there's so much that can be open to you.

[41:29] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[41:30] Maria Manuela Goyanes: But if you've just written your first, second, third play and this is the first time you're getting a real professional production ever. Um, chances aren't like you could be a wonder kid. There are a lot of wonder kind um yeah, playwrights who I think are amazing, right? But the chances are high that you know it's gonna take some time for you to be considered to to write a Broadway show.

[41:52] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[41:53] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I love that you're thinking about um these opportunities as a long haul and not just like the moment in time, because the moment in time is very real and it's an incredible opportunity and it's a showcase of sorts to be able to see your work, have it, you know, shared with other folks in yeah, like the Ford of whatever weeks that we're doing it but I love that you're envisioning it beyond because arguably you know when I think about some of the theaters that I've worked at or the directors who you know have directed me or um the workshops that I've worked and that have moved along these are all relationships that you've built and then there's something really beautiful about remembering that art is alive and breathing and yes you may have this one production that shows this particular art in this particular moment but to have somebody who really pictures you and it in the future iterations with your growth with its growth um I think is a very it's it's arguably like why I became a performer and an artist is because you want to be a part of the thing that continues to breathe.

[43:06] Maria Manuela Goyanes: And it doesn't just have this moment in time and then you say goodbye forever. And so I love that you're envisioning that for this massively gorgeous incredible monumental institution. That you know I'm really excited about that.

[43:21] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[43:21] Maria Manuela Goyanes: You know and I think I really do deeply care about it you can tell by the work that I've done at Wooly I I care about people having careers and um full lives in the theater if possible right if at all possible. And so I've spent a lot of time working on touring shows at Wooly. I've spent a lot of time thinking about and trying to set up co-productions or the next production or the next other thing or helping other, you know. Um, you know, it it's it's those kinds of things that I feel like, you know, are not just about um, you know, getting to live on with a show or a show, you know, that you work on, say, for seven years isn't over after four weeks, you know, but also allows like artists to keep having health insurance and keep having stuff like that that is like right.

[44:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[44:10] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah. It's a much better conversation. I feel like it's really, really important. It's really important. And I feel like that to me feels like a big responsibility. I mean, when we talk about being an artistic director, that's like when I talk about livelihood, it's not just the livelihood of the people who get to have a a paycheck every week.

[44:30] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[44:30] Maria Manuela Goyanes: But it's also of the folks who are working with us, the artists and stuff and and how do we how do we help them take this opportunity and sort of make make as much out of it as possible.

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[45:59] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I know this is kind of like an introspective question, but if you were to describe yourself as an artistic director in the way in which you lead, what would be some of your defining qualities that you would say to define yourself?

[46:14] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I like humor. I like to not take everything so seriously. Yeah. Although I'm quite a serious person. I think there's a misnomer around like being a serious person being negative. I just want to name this because I also consider myself somebody who's maybe maybe the word I've received is like intense. But for me, what that just means. Right. I'm a native New Yorker also. Like I think that's just like in the zeitgeist. But you know, I like that word, like intense having maybe it's just because I'm also a woman, but like having some sort of negative association, where really what that means for me is that I'm focused, I'm really intentional around the way in which I relate to people and I communicate, and that I'm driven and there's a passion and it's like so the seriousness I hear in you.

But you know, the seriousness, I think for me, when I think serious, I think of somebody who is is is thoughtful and deep and also intentional and has like a misnomer around the label that like feels more like negative coded. I guess I just want to offer that for me, having this conversation feels like it's serious, does it it goes it's antithetical to me to like the humor part. Like it's there it's there, I'm sure. But and I want to just be like let's lift it. I mean I think that like one of the things that is just so difficult to me in these organizations is like we're we're all pretending it's feels like it's we're often pretending to be um or like businesses, especially in New York because boys Wall Street is the big currency there, right?

But here it's the government right in the DC and it's like we're we're sort of like what are best practices for the theater? Well let's look to the businesses and what their best practices are because most of the people who are on our board are connected to a big business real estate or whatever it is and that kind of stuff. And I'm just like why are business why are they the best practices for a theater? Yeah a theater like can we remember we're making plays? Like, you know like it's like that kind of stuff. I'm just like you know and most of the people who work in a theater have actually been in a play. So they like know the warm-ups they know the this they know the that and I just I I think like trying to bring that ethos, that joy of it is is is feels really important to me. And I um and so I really want to not just enjoy myself um when I go to work, but I want other people to enjoy themselves.

[48:53] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[48:54] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I also interrupted your list so carry on. I just have this thought I mean I think I am I think I think um I try to practice like sort of thinking abundantly, which I think manifests itself in terms of being an artistic director. That, you know, I want the staff to, if they are artists, to go do their art. If they are um, if they have something else that they want to try and do that they feel like is going to like enhance their, you know, personal development or that kind of stuff, or whatever. I want them to do that. I don't, I'm not like, you know, you can only do one thing outside of woolly, you know. I mean, I ran 3TP while being at the public, right? It's like I want them to come and use Wooly and help and and um and have more art happen, right?

And more different things happen, even if it's not just theater, it can be visual arts, it can be whatever, you know. Um, I have a couple of pieces from people who I've bought who are staff members, like visual arts. And I was like, that's I want them to do that. Um so that I think also characterizes me because I think like as a I I think I'd like to think that my generation of artistic directors all believe that. Um, but I definitely didn't feel that coming up.

[50:06] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[50:06] Maria Manuela Goyanes: That it was okay to it sort of felt like you had to be quiet about all the other things that you're doing because you had to like you had like an exclusivity clause or something like that with the place that you're, you know. And that was just so much about competition. And I just am not, you know. The third thing I would say is like I am a more the merrier kind of person.

[50:26] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I am. And so I don't feel um, I don't feel threatened by the thought of having five artistic directors in a room needing to give notes. I will want to make sure that the playwright or the director aren't gonna be overwhelmed. But I remember working, okay. So one of the shows that we did in the pandemic was This is Who I Am. And this was it was one of the first like Zooms that across the country basically that was happening was in the fall of we commissioned it for Zoom and we did it in the fall of 2020. And I um it was the Guthrie it was Joe Hajj at the Guthrie it was Diane Paulus at ART it was Nataki Garrett at OSF it was me at Woolly Mammoth and Kate Lowalda the play company we all got together and said we're gonna have this Zoom happen in each of our cities and it was a commission right so like the play was being made and Everen Ojkin directed it did a beautiful job it was by Amir Nazar Zabi and I just remember talking to all of all the artistic directors and be like okay I bet they're going to be overwhelmed yeah by all the notes from all of us so can we all just like talk about it and like decide this person's gonna give up this you know what I mean?

[51:41] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah like these things don't they don't seem like hard to me even though for some reason it seems like it doesn't happen as much I think it's been happening more since the pandemic for sure more in my generation of artistic directors for sure. Yeah um but that that's those are just like three or four things that are really like guiding principles for me. You know no if it's it's it's beautiful to hear because again we are not a monolith and I just I just want to yeah remind people that people are human and that argument I don't need to be the end all be all if somebody else has a better idea.

[52:18] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[52:19] Maria Manuela Goyanes: But I do feel like sometimes people in positions of power really feel like they have to be and you know to each his own that's not my that's not my gig that's not my style.

[52:30] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. In this moment of transition for you, are there some things that you are keeping in mind?

[52:36] Maria Manuela Goyanes: I really want to make sure that um I leave Woolly Mammoth in a great place for the next artistic director. Um there's gonna be a national search, they'll hopefully choose a national search firm. And that's how they got me. You know, that's like I um I hope and uh that a lot of amazing artists and people will want to come and want to run this incredible theater. Um, and I can't wait to see and I can't wait to support. And I feel excited that um there are some big gifts that have sort of come in that are making at least me feel like okay, it's not dire, you know. Um, although financially I don't have a crystal ball, and what's gonna happen in DC is really scary. And a lot some theaters who can plan for it are trying to not put in any money from the city or the federal government into their into the next year's budget, which I would be very hard for us to do.

[53:41] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[53:42] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um, and so it's just so even with those gifts that are sort of making me feel like, oh phew, um, I still feel really like the precarious nature of this moment in this administration in Washington, DC. Also how different it is for DC theaters than it is for the rest of the country. That's not to say that the rest of the country isn't feeling it. They absolutely are. I'm just it's a yes and conversation where you just it's it's different to not be a state and have your own and the proximity of it too, just it being literally your backyard is a very different thing than on a TV.

[54:15] Jennifer Apple: It's 10 blocks from here.

[54:16] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Exactly. Literally. So um that's the White House and the Capitol. So I'm thinking a lot about how to show up for my folks and what are the things that I need to do to like set them up so that I actually can still, you know, move, start this new job and have a life.

[54:37] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[54:37] Maria Manuela Goyanes: And so that my life isn't just going to work and going to help my folks and going to work and help, you know. Um, so thinking a lot about that. I love the theater. So I'm thinking a lot about like all of the plays and all of the things that I want to see. I have intense FOMO. And so I'm gonna have intense FOMO not being in Washington, DC, seeing all this stuff and people being like, oh, you missed that and you missed that. It's gonna be real. And just like the grief that comes up. I mean, when you leave a job, seven years is no small amount of time.

[55:10] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[55:11] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um, it's not a massive amount of time. It's not like my 14 and a half years at the public, but like it's um it's long enough to have relationships with people that I'm gonna miss seeing often.

[55:23] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[55:23] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Just like I missed um folks in New York when I came here.

[55:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. And for anybody who is listening and is thinking to themselves, huh? This is something that I am thinking might be my calling, but I, you know, I've come through these different paths, or you know, I haven't really, you know, had much exposure to what it could mean to be, you know, an artistic director. Like, what would be your starter kit for folks who are um wanting to go down the artistic directing path and or thinking to themselves, huh? This search should be interesting for me. What would be your thoughts?

[56:00] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Well, there's sort of two things that I would say. The first is I don't know, man, being an artistic director, go ahead and put up your own plays with your friends and with people, you know, getting people butts in seats, yeah, figuring out how to pay people, figuring out how to do all this stuff that I learned in that student theater at Brown, it's just a lot more zeros. A lot, you know what I mean? Yeah, stakes are different, but it's still, you know, very much like doing things that you believe in and then trying to get other people to believe in them. You know, care about them and want to come. And I think to me, like there's not a school for being an artistic director because everybody comes at how to make things like that in their own way.

[56:48] Jennifer Apple: Right.

[56:48] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So you have to find the way you do that. It took me a long time to sort of realize that there wasn't one way or one right way that I was trying to learn. And that Oscar's way is not my way, my way is not Howard's way. There's overlap, sure, but that the goal of getting to work on something great that you believe in, and that again get and hopefully other people believe it, there are many ways to get to that place.

[57:19] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[57:20] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um, and so I the first things first is like for me, it was always just start doing it. Just start doing it. The whole thing about needing to have a certain amount of training to be able to do XYZ or whatever, to me, the specialization of our industry, yeah. I believe in I'm happy for people who go to grad school and do all that kind of stuff. Happy that they do that. That's awesome. It just wasn't my path. And for me, I um I sometimes feel like when folks don't have any kind of real world experience, whatever, they're really at a disadvantage. Um the folks who end up going to grad school after having some real world experience get a lot out of it, get a lot out of it. And then they come out and they change they are able to change in that way. And so that's the thing that I guess I would say is like that's why my my advice is always Jim Howden said this to me. Just do it. Just like Nike was right.

[58:19] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[58:19] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Um you know. But then the second thing is if this is a job that you think that you'd be interested in, hold your nerve and hold your courage and apply. Like, you know, go for it. This is uh this is a theater company that takes chances, and this is a board that um understands that and knows that. It's rare in the American theater, you know, that they're that they're not looking for the like safe idea or the safe thing, you know. Um when I first was being interviewed and I came and I met the search committee, one of the board members, it I felt almost like goaded into saying if something didn't work, I would like blow it up and try something else and just do completely different things. And I was like, this is the craziest board.

I love it. The craziest in the best way it's like, oh my god, this is a board that's used to or has been really, really does understand that um to make woolly woolly, you gotta sometimes, you know, when the thing done work. What are you doing? Yeah, throw it out. Yeah, try something new, explode it, think about it in a different way, pilot something else, you know.

[59:26] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and so um I think this is a board that really, you know, is ready and eager to hear from people like that. So go for it, you know.

[59:35] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Love it. Thank you so much for sharing in this way, for opening up your heart, for talking so vulnerably and openly. And I'm so so so grateful for you in this space. And I'm really excited for this next chapter of your career and your artistic journey. And I'm grateful that New York is going to welcome you back.

[59:59] Jennifer Apple: It, you know, hopefully with the openest, most open of arms.

[1:00:02] Maria Manuela Goyanes: What is the grammar?

[1:00:03] Jennifer Apple: The most open of arms, you know.

[1:00:05] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Sounds good.

[1:00:06] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. For for you to, you know, be able to put this gorgeous vision and ethos into practice. I think it's um the more folks that we can continue having here that continue um keeping true to I think why theater, uh, the hub of theater started here and is important. Um, so for anybody who wants to reach out to work with you to potentially pick your brain or whatever it is, what within your boundaries uh is the best way for people to find you.

[1:00:37] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, my my email is actually on the Woolly website, so you just email me.

[1:00:41] Jennifer Apple: Right.

[1:00:43] Maria Manuela Goyanes: So I love it. I can't, I can't promise a timely response.

[1:00:48] Jennifer Apple: No, that's that I think should be. I mean, again, I hate the shoulds, but like in the times that we're living in, I feel like the grace that we can offer one another for like um our time frames of communication. Um, I'm not saying no communication, but the time frames for communication, that for me feels like oh yeah. The fact that everybody expects things like this is just no thank you. Where the world is burning. We can take a moment to breathe through things.

[1:01:11] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, I look forward to meeting you in person. I hope we get to hang out in person and getting to know each other and stuff. But I just I feel very grateful, not just to be in your company, but also in the company of people like Lisa McDalty doing this podcast and you know, and all of the great other people who you're gonna have. Like this is what a gift that you're giving the theater community.

[1:01:33] Jennifer Apple: Thank you.

[1:01:34] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Trying, trying to highlight the folks who are doing the work and and and doing so from a place that you know is is valued. Like I don't mean like of money, I mean like there is a value.

[1:01:46] Jennifer Apple: Has values, yeah.

[1:01:47] Maria Manuela Goyanes: Words.

[1:01:47] Jennifer Apple: Um, thank you again. You do great with words.

[1:01:50] Maria Manuela Goyanes: That's all thank you. These affirmations are helpful.

[1:01:52] Jennifer Apple: That's it for today's episode. I hope you walk away with some fresh insights, feel inspired, and a little more empowered to take the next step on your artistic journey. Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. You've got this, and we're here cheering you on every step of the way. If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to hit subscribe so you'll never miss out on the discussions we have each week. And if something today really resonated with you, please leave us a review. It truly is one of the best ways to help other artists find our podcast and join in on the conversations. Plus, we feel the love too when you do. And don't keep all this goodness to yourself.

Share this episode with your people or post about it on social media. Be sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going. As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, and thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Keep creating, keep thriving, stay empowered. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.