This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jennifer Apple: Hello.

[0:01] Jennifer Apple: Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:04] Jennifer Apple: I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, a multi-hyphenate actor, educator, acting coach, writer, dog mom, and founder of this vibrant community that champions artists as they carve out their own unique paths in this wild industry.

[0:17] Jennifer Apple: Whether you're just starting out in the thick of it, or seeking a bit of artistic fuel to expand your toolbox, you're in the right place.

[0:24] Jennifer Apple: In this space, we'll have honest conversations, share actionable strategies, tips, and resources, and delve into the messy yet beautiful journey of living a sustainable creative life.

[0:34] Jennifer Apple: We unmask the reality of life as an artist, from navigating career highs and lows to nurturing your full human well-being.

[0:42] Jennifer Apple: I chat with women and non-binary guests who share their personal stories, helpful learnings, and hearts to help you unlock your artistic potential, expand your knowledge, and show up fully and fearlessly in your artistry and daily life.

[0:55] Jennifer Apple: Before we dive into this week's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

[1:01] Jennifer Apple: If today's chat resonates with you, please leave us a review.

[1:04] Jennifer Apple: It helps us reach even more incredible artists just like you.

[1:07] Jennifer Apple: And hey, feel free to spread the love.

[1:09] Jennifer Apple: Share this podcast with a friend or post it on your socials, making sure to tag at Empowered Artist Collective and at Jennifer Apple underscore so we can chat with you there.

[1:18] Jennifer Apple: Alright, grab a cup of something cozy, settle in, and let's get to it.

[1:22] Jennifer Apple: What kind of work emerges when you write from curiosity, not expectation?

[1:27] Jennifer Apple: In this episode, as part of our playwright miniseries, I chat with playwright and screenwriter Keiko Green to explore how emotional intelligence, actor instincts, and a healthy disregard for traditional rules have shaped her distinctive writing career.

[1:40] Jennifer Apple: Keiko shares how she began writing roles for herself as an actor, which quickly transformed into writing pieces for others with character-driven, genre-fluid material that often break writing norms and expectations.

[1:50] Jennifer Apple: Keiko offers practical tools like writing in four-hour blocks, using the "but and therefore" method to keep characters active, her decision to go to grad school, and how she advocates for herself.

[2:01] Jennifer Apple: Together we talk about building relationships, the importance of self-produced work, and writing material that showcases humanity, centers collaboration, and makes room for joy.

[2:10] Jennifer Apple: This episode invites you to embrace the mess, trust the process, and create the story only you are meant to tell.

[2:17] Jennifer Apple: Enjoy.

[2:18] Jennifer Apple: Keiko Green, you are in the space.

[2:22] Keiko Green: Thanks for having me.

[2:24] Jennifer Apple: For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:27] Keiko Green: My name's Keiko Green.

[2:29] Keiko Green: I use she/her pronouns.

[2:31] Keiko Green: I'm a playwright, screenwriter, um, sometimes actor still, um, and dog mom mostly.

[2:41] Jennifer Apple: Yes, honestly, that's a title that I usually throw into the mix too and people are like, but that's not your—I'm like, don't you tell me what is or isn't. Like, arguably I shouldn't put that at the top. If I have to schedule so much of my life around this creature, I'm gonna put them in my title.

[2:58] Jennifer Apple: What kind of dog do you have?

[3:00] Keiko Green: I have a basset hound.

[3:02] Keiko Green: People tell me all the time they're like my dog wakes me up at five in the morning. My dog is still sleeping in my bed upstairs.

[3:08] Keiko Green: Obsessed, obsessed.

[3:09] Keiko Green: Yeah, I'm lucky too where mine is—I don't know what I did to deserve this dream, but like truly just like on my schedule and will sleep with me until I sleep, will wake up with me if I wake up.

[3:20] Keiko Green: I mean, it's just a true blessing and I probably should have a podcast about dogs rather than what this podcast is.

[3:27] Jennifer Apple: You know what's really interesting actually is, before we even dent into anything real, there's so many, um, I think post-COVID theater productions, there's a lot, like myself, the director and like my last show, and the set designer, we all brought in our dog at one point during tech.

[3:45] Jennifer Apple: And it was like really—it's just become part of the world, I think actually.

[3:51] Keiko Green: And um, I don't have a tiny dog, so I can't like fly with him or anything, but um, we work—I work in like San Diego a lot, so I'm—he's always coming.

[4:03] Keiko Green: He's always like traveling with us in the car.

[4:05] Keiko Green: And yeah, it's part of the artist's life now.

[4:09] Jennifer Apple: Oh, yeah, no, he's like a staple of any artist experience.

[4:12] Keiko Green: I've brought him to galas and like then he comes to sound check.

[4:14] Keiko Green: I mean, not to the actual gala, but like to sound tech and like, you know, I know it would be really bold if I decided to do that.

[4:20] Keiko Green: We'll probably progress into that moment of my life where I don't care enough.

[4:23] Keiko Green: And I'm like, but he'll wear a tuxedo, like he will be the star.

[4:26] Keiko Green: Do you want—you're trying to raise money?

[4:28] Keiko Green: I will do—what do you need him to do?

[4:34] Keiko Green: Like, I will pawn him out in that way because he's so cute.

[4:37] Keiko Green: But no, it's yeah, it's like it's a non-negotiable at this point that like he comes with me and he is the reason I'm doing this contract so that I have the money to pay for his health insurance, so that's better than mine.

[4:48] Jennifer Apple: You know, exactly.

[4:49] Jennifer Apple: It's really a wild experience.

[4:51] Jennifer Apple: But um, yeah, it sounds like your basset hound is a dream.

[4:55] Jennifer Apple: And um, I hope his slumber continues, you know, through the rest of this podcast, just for his own enjoyment.

[5:02] Jennifer Apple: Um, as far as the writing of it all, which is arguably why you're here, though I would talk to you about your dog forever.

[5:08] Keiko Green: Right.

[5:09] Jennifer Apple: I'm curious to hear how you began your writer's journey, when that began, what brought you to the brilliance of the breadth of work that you've created, and like why this is the particular lane in this large scope of the industry that you find yourself seated and enjoy being a part of.

[5:09] Keiko Green: Yeah, it's really interesting that I've found this journey of becoming a playwright and screenwriter, but mostly because when I was growing up I was always like more of a math kid.

[5:09] Keiko Green: And um, I'm not a big person that like loves—um, when I'm writing plays I don't write like a lot of really intellectual conversation, which is kind of, um, kind of embarrassing to say, but—

[5:09] Keiko Green: No, it's not true.

[5:09] Keiko Green: No, but it's like people—it—that's why I love your work, carry on.

[6:03] Keiko Green: Yeah, it's so interesting that like, um, you know, what I think I have access to is more like emotional intelligence or even like how a story is interesting, um, a twisting and falling apart and crashing together.

[6:03] Keiko Green: But I always thought that writers were supposed to be these people that like only use the biggest words and that's just not really how I communicate.

[6:03] Keiko Green: And it's—whenever I'm actually working with dramaturges, I'm really picky because I'm like, what I can't work with is someone who's gonna come in and be like an academic with me.

[6:36] Keiko Green: I need someone who we hear the play, we go get a beer, and I'm like, okay, in this scene, like does it feel like she's still being active?

[6:36] Keiko Green: You know, it's less about—yeah, I just think about it.

[6:36] Keiko Green: So it's just so strange to me that I've never really been much of like a words person, um, or I never considered myself that way.

[6:58] Keiko Green: Um, so the way I got into writing was, um, I went to NYU.

[6:58] Keiko Green: I was put into the experimental theater wing, which they place you in different studios based on your audition for the school.

[6:56] Keiko Green: And um, I had done like an audition—my monologues were, listen, as like a 17-year-old, I was doing um, Philip Ridley's Fastest Clock in the Universe, I think, and Sarah Kane's 448 Psychosis.

[6:58] Jennifer Apple: Cool, cool, cool.

[6:58] Keiko Green: Like a 17-year-old taking that 448 Psychosis on, I think is just hysterical.

[7:34] Jennifer Apple: But you're not the first and you unfortunately won't be the last.

[7:37] Jennifer Apple: I think there's like—that's a larger conversation though for another time about material.

[7:41] Keiko Green: Yes.

[7:42] Keiko Green: Yeah, but I mean I guess that is what's really cool about um, audition monologues is like I know people are like always, you know, people are always searching for them, but they really can be, even before you speak, like what you choose is such a gentle look into what you're into.

[8:01] Keiko Green: And so I always think it's like, yeah, I think it was really—I picked two really ups like strange, um, like weirdo British playwrights, but also that was what I'm into, and that says a lot about me too.

[8:13] Keiko Green: So I feel like that was correct.

[8:15] Keiko Green: So they put me in um, the experimental theater wing, which was a studio that definitely, you know, a great acting studio, but um, it's also a studio that really supports you in creating your own work.

[8:32] Keiko Green: So we have a lot of um, creator performers out of that studio.

[8:36] Keiko Green: So Maya Erskine and Anna Conkle, who made Pen 15, I was in school with them.

[8:42] Keiko Green: Um, uh, uh, Rachel Bloom, who created Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.

[8:45] Keiko Green: I was in a show with her in college.

[8:48] Keiko Green: Like we—um, it's a—yeah, it—there's a lot of just um, multi-hyphenates that come out of that school.

[8:55] Keiko Green: Um, yeah, and but I was like, no, I am going to be an actor.

[8:55] Keiko Green: And so I was um, you know, I wrote stuff, I enjoyed it, but I also was like, I'm not—I'm gonna be a—I was like, I'm gonna be a star, baby.

[8:55] Keiko Green: Um, and then so um, but after college, like I was set up really well, you know, that school is complicated because um, only like—they have like hundreds of actors per year, but only 20-something people get to do the showcase, the industry showcase, and I got to do the showcase.

[8:55] Keiko Green: I got to—like there were all these things that I was like, oh, I'm being set up to like really thrive in this industry.

[8:55] Keiko Green: Um, and when I got out, all of the auditions that I went on were like, um, the one that I always use as the best example was I auditioned for this TV show called Lipstick Jungle, um, and the role that I went in for was Geisha Masseuse.

[9:48] Keiko Green: Love.

[9:49] Keiko Green: And it was like that, you know, it's like you study to do Shakespeare and like, um, to just be able to like dive into some really amazing text, but then when you graduate, the things that you're being asked to do are so um, either small or—or uh, simple, which is which is fine, but for that it was also like there was like this racial, sexualizing aspect to it that I was like, I am just not into this.

[9:48] Keiko Green: And as an Asian American woman, um, even after that for a long time, the roles that I was being—I eventually moved to Seattle because I just couldn't afford New York.

[10:24] Keiko Green: I didn't realize that everybody else anywhere basically had like a trust fund and I was busting my ass and just couldn't afford it.

[10:31] Keiko Green: So I was like, I'm gonna go to Seattle for on my way to LA.

[10:35] Keiko Green: And once I got to Seattle, um, like my parents had moved there, I got my equity card there, I got my SAG card there.

[10:42] Keiko Green: I was just like, oh, you know, this is actually something that I wish I had known.

[10:46] Keiko Green: Like when I left New York, I felt like such a failure.

[10:49] Keiko Green: But actually, there's a lot to be learned by going to a smaller market and getting a ton of experience.

[10:59] Keiko Green: Um, and at first, yes, I was still playing prostitutes.

[11:03] Keiko Green: Even in Shakespeare, I was playing like Bianca in Othello, you know.

[11:06] Keiko Green: Um, when I got my equity card, it was on this, um, it was on a world premiere that was four—that was about like three office workers, um, you know, a three-hander, all women, and I was the young one, and they kept putting me in like leather, like leather pencil skirts and stuff, and all of the reviews were like a dominatrix-y, you know.

[11:31] Keiko Green: I was like, wow, even when I'm playing an office worker, I'm still like so sexualized.

[11:36] Keiko Green: Um, so for me, there was a lot of just trying to like break out of that.

[11:40] Keiko Green: And I was just like, I think that there's just so much more I can do.

[11:43] Keiko Green: Um, or even if I can't, I just want the opportunity.

[11:47] Keiko Green: So I started writing mostly because I thought I would write for myself.

[11:51] Keiko Green: And I think I wrote um, one thing that I produced myself that my friend directed that I acted in, but pretty much everything after that, the moment I started workshopping and having other actors in instead, I was like, oh, this is so much more fun.

[12:08] Keiko Green: And I could tell that these actors are also wishing that they had something chewy, you know.

[12:14] Keiko Green: So um, it quickly became just such a joy to um, to start collaborating with actors.

[12:22] Keiko Green: And because I, you know, I think that I know what we like, which is like everyone in my show, even if they have usually what a lot of my shows are structured so that there's like one or two or three characters that are really solidly on the ground and their story kind of revolves around them. And then I have often like three ensemble members who play like a bajillion characters. Both versions of that are a huge showcase for actors, you know, and so my goal is always in my writing to make sure that I'm writing something that like actors are coming on, being like, oh my god, I'm so excited, or this is really intimidating, but I'm like, we're gonna do it. I think I'm just trying to always make sure that the scenes feel like exciting to do. And I think that becomes pretty infectious in the audience too.

[13:22] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I, as I've said to you off of this, it's when, and it's interesting that we were talking about like the material that you picked for college of just, you know, for me as I coach and what I do with monologue sourcing, where I find monologues for people, like I've given your pieces so much to so many different human beings. Whether they are already, you know, like pursuing this and they need them for EPAs or auditions or self-tapes, or whether there are folks who are going in for their BFA or MFA auditions. And a huge reason why your material speaks to them is because A, it's like humans first, of like, you know, who am I and what am I interested in? And also going back to like what you were saying of like when you're picking a piece, it really is about like showcasing like these are the stories that I'm interested in, or the characters that speak to me, or the worlds that I feel compelled and drawn towards.

And you know, your worlds are so clear. And for me, when I'm approaching choosing material for people, it really is like human first, and that is your work. Like, I feel like if I had to synthesize the way in which I feel when I read your plays, it's like, oh yeah, these are humans. Like I know these people or I've seen these people, no matter what the circumstances are, they might be larger than me, and I might not understand them or know them personally, but they're real people. And to hear you talk about that this is the way that you got to your writing as like the craft is through your own, frankly, desire, but also exploration of like what do artists really crave as people on a stage. It feels so palpable to me. So I love hearing that because it's like when I've read them, that's been my experience. So that synthesis is like a really lovely little sparkly moment for me.

[15:08] Keiko Green: Thank you. So thank you so much. And I have been hearing that people have been using my monologues, and I love that so much. You know, I love writing a monologue. There is, I can't think of a single one of my plays that doesn't have at least like a very juicy monologue in it. And I think that there's also, you know, it's always these things where like if you're a multi-hyphenate artist, then you know, you really have to take your education in this one thing to and it'll make your other work so much better. And I think that for me, being an actor first and then becoming a writer, when I'm writing a monologue, it's never, I remember when I was an actor looking for certain things, the monologues never felt active.

Like they could be about something, but it never felt like the character was always doing something. And I think that's always something I'm really proud of is like these monologues are coming out because they are, even if they're direct addressed to the audience, like we are trying to change someone else through this story. We're trying to change their mind or we're trying to do something. And that's why I'm glad that people are using them.

[16:14] Jennifer Apple: Hi, actor friends, talking to you. If finding the perfect monologue has you feeling stuck, I've got just the thing. I put together a free monologue selection toolkit just for you. It's packed with resources, free and paid options, plus tips for choosing, editing, and customizing pieces to showcase you. Head over to jenniferapple.net/freebie and stop avoiding the auditions that ask for a monologue or waiting for the perfect piece to simply fall into your lap. Dive into this free toolkit that I set up just for you that'll set you up to feel agency over your process and artistry. That's jenniferapple.net/freebie and get started on finding your next go-to monologue.

[16:55] Keiko Green: Well, I would love then now to talk about your process for writing. When you are about to begin something, is it like you have like a list of ideas that have been percolating and then you're like, now is the time? Or is it like you get an idea that bangs itself over its head, you're like, I need to explore this, or like what is your way into starting a piece?

[17:16] Keiko Green: Yeah, I, um also I'll give you like specific examples, maybe because I think that if I speak generally, it actually just becomes like a blob. So for example, I wrote this play Sharon. Sharon, I wrote, which is kind of like a thrillery, almost hoary, like hitchcock-y kind of play. And the reason I wrote that play was when we're working in film and TV, we're a little bit more forced into a specific box of like what kind of writer are you. What's so amazing about being a playwright is that we just get to constantly shift genres and tones, and no one will tell us to stop. And so I wanted to write something that felt a little like darker. I had been working on Exotic Deadly, which I'll talk about next.

And I, but the reason that Sharon came out, like the tone wasn't the first I knew that I wanted to write something of like that was like a little bit darker and a little funny and a little thrillery, but what really came out was I had read a completely different play, which is Martina Mayok's Cost of Living. And I read that play, and I was like, oh, I guess in essence, this play is a play about like an interesting transactional relationship. And so I walked away being like, oh, I wonder what my version of a transactional relationship play would be. And so I like wrote out this first these three tiny scenes of just like this guy named Jake, and what seemingly is his mom, named Sharon, and every day he comes home from work and she's cooking, but like he keeps correcting her, like she'll be like, um, right, I made your favorite meatballs, and he's like, but that's not my favorite, is it?

And like you can see her like falter a little bit and then like find her way back, and you're like, well, there's something weird about this mother-son relationship, and it starts to get weirder, and like the second scene is like slightly stranger, and then the third scene breaks character, and we realize that like the person who has been his mom is actually like someone who's like playing the role of his mom from upstairs.

[18:40] Jennifer Apple: And you didn't know this going into it. You were like, you let the characters, as you were writing it, you let the characters kind of tell you what it was, or as you were writing it, you knew where you were headed.

[19:40] Keiko Green: I think I knew in this triplet, because I call, I think of them less as three different scenes and more of like a triplet of in one scene. I think I knew writing it that like I knew what the relationship would be in this transactional relationship. I didn't know that it would like break apart so quickly, but I just wrote it and like that's kind of what came out. So I wrote that and just like had people read just this first triplet of scenes, and I was like, there's something really interesting here. And the guy seemed really scary. The character of Jake, who's kind of the lead of the show. So I was like, okay, so then the next challenge is if this guy seems really scary and he seems to have control over this woman who's like playing his mom for like in exchange for rent, how can I then get people to feel bad for this guy?

That's the next challenge. So it's like, and then, and then how the next challenge, so then I'm like, okay, I'm gonna put him in a situation where he has no power. And now I'm gonna, now the next challenge is like, how can we get people to fall in love with this guy just by instead of just feeling sorry for him? I'm like, okay, great, let's give him so. Then I was like, I'm just trying to like complicate, I'm just trying to make the biggest challenge for myself as possible for this character of like I've presented to you a really weird, unrelatable human, and now I'm just gonna spend the rest of the 90 minutes like getting you to feel pity for him, fall in love with him, and then be scared of him again, and then go into some like giant climactic scene is kind of the goal.

And in that play, I didn't know where it was gonna end. And so it just kind of I got to the end and I think I just stayed there for like three weeks. I had people like read, I, this is something I do a lot, probably a thing from grad school, which is like had people read from the beginning all the way to where I was stuck, and then the ending kind of felt clear, you know. It's just instead of writing like a shitty ending that wasn't right, I just being like, this is where I'm stuck, and in my brain, it's like once we get there, I'm like my brain is like filling in the rest of the play.

[21:55] Keiko Green: Totally different play is Exotic Deadly, which is like a coming of age comedy about this like 14-year-old Japanese American girl who is, who like time travels to try to stop her family from bringing MSG to the US because she thinks it's poison. In Sharon, we have like a 45-page dinner scene at the end. In Exotic Deadly, it's like we're changing locations twice in a page sometimes. Like it's breaking a lot of what were considered like theater rules. And part of that is because I wrote it like freshly dirt as soon as we were in lockdown in COVID, and I was like, I will no longer be beholden to rules from an industry that might not exist on the other side. So I'm just gonna write whatever I want.

And that was kind of actually my one of my first like successful play, I'd say, which so I really, really suggest people kind of like shake off what they think are considered rules to be produced. But for Exotic Deadly, like that was a story, you know, my grandpa was a food scientist for Ijunomoto, which is the MSG manufacturing and distributing company in Japan. And I was like, I always wanted to write a play about MSG somehow. I didn't quite know how to do it while also feeling like I'm writing something that felt like me. And there was something about just I'm just gonna start off with like a direct address monologue, which again, some people are like never start your play with like a fourth wall breaking monologue.

I've done that so many times. I like three, like my two most successful plays do that. So I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what to dial who made that rule. Like it's like the who of it made that rule. As long as the thing is like all of these rules, it's like as long as you're doing a good job like you can, you know, but people just don't like it when they're reading a bad version of that, you know, but if you're, if you, if that's the way that the story has to be told then like definitely that's the way to do it. And so in that play because it starts off with the fourth wall breaking monologue I wrote that scene I wrote that monologue which was like three pages and then I wrote this like really silly I just was like what is the tone of this play?

So I didn't even, I this one I didn't go in chronological order. I was just like I'm gonna write a scene where like Ben and Matt, celebrities Ben and Matt, but not celebrities Ben and Matt, are in a Chinese restaurant and they get poisoned by MSG and one of them dies from overdose from but from another test. And like it's so silly. And they're like not even written like men Ben and Matt are written more like, like Wayne and Garth or like a Bill and Ted or something.

[24:43] Keiko Green: And like it was important to like before getting into story on that one, I was like, I just need to understand what the tone of this play is. I need to start with my monologue and go as like far as I think it might go in terms of silliness, so that I can be like, okay, the world is like everything in between these two things. Um it's helpful to hear, I mean, at this, you know, I'm doing this series so that folks have, you know, I'm I think I'm on a mission in my own little like corner of the world to show that just because somebody is a label that we label 800 different other people the same exact label doesn't mean that every single label person is doing the thing the exact same way. Arguably there's 800 different versions of the thing that all have the same exact label.

And so how are we coming at this thing that we all have an idea of and think is the thing? And you know, you're naming what and I'm I'm gonna give myself like a tap on the back here for a second, in that like, you know, I've reached out to folks who I do believe and have thus far shared vast experiences about the way in which they enter their writing processes. And what I'm hearing from you, which I think is so humbling and also really wonderful, is that A, you trust yourself enough to know that like you're gonna figure it out once you know the things and discover the things, and that B, you don't necessarily like need to know all the things in order to even start the thing, and that C, you're cool with like doing the thing that's the rough thing and already inviting people into it to hear it so that you can hear the things that you know you need in order to move forward, like just naming that as part of your process from at least these two examples is a really cool reminder to be like, all right, even if you have like an inkling of an idea, but you don't really know what it is, or you have an inspiration of a thing, and you also don't necessarily know how it's gonna manifest, and even the like putting them in the room and doing of the thing, you will always learn something, and that might shift or change or like adapt the idea that you might have, but to be open to that is in and of itself creating, which I think is awesome.

[26:43] Keiko Green: Yes, absolutely. And you know, I'm just reading a um interview with Lucy Prebble, um, because I was I was teaching one of her plays recently. Um, and she said something that is like exactly what I've been kind of telling people, which is just that like she said that as she's become further in her career, um, she's realized how important it is to share your material with people before it's ready. Um, and I am like the biggest supporter of that because I think what gets in people's way so much with writing is that they are like agonizing because they don't want their friends to think they're a bad writer. They don't want their, you know, and so they're like holding on to things until it's ready, and it's like it'll never be ready until you start actually using those people.

[27:32] Keiko Green: Yeah, yeah. And also like what is ready? Like, I feel like certainly for an art form that, you know, I would imagine for you with your plays, it's like when you are finally giving a theater the opportunity to produce it, you have a director, you have a creative team, you have a budget, and all of a sudden this thing that you thought was gonna be the thing can't be done or must be done differently or has to be adapted because you this is no longer possible. And like the thing that you had to be quote unquote ready is now a different version of ready. Like there is the ability to remain flexible is arguably like at the core of all of what we do, and to not make something so so precious that it without it being exactly what you think, then it doesn't ever exist.

I think there's like the fine line of yeah, like letting something breathe a little bit and also letting other folks breathe their own creativity into it so that it continues to evolve into what it's actually what is gonna serve the piece in that moment.

[28:28] Keiko Green: Um yeah, yeah, absolutely. Let's say you have your piece and now at this point it's quote unquote ready in whatever the version of it that you deem to be ready at the moment, and now you are ready for next steps. What are you doing to find those next steps, whether that's a production, a workshop or whatever, a creative team? And then when you are entering into those spaces, how is it for you in say the adapting of whatever those needs are?

[28:55] Keiko Green: Yeah, it's so funny because the yeah, it's the the ready is like mostly the people tell you when you're ready because they program it. And like I'm there have been maybe a couple workshops that I have I have made like very few changes. I do a a kind of a brief little rewrite before a workshop if I know it's coming, and then because I'm like, I know that I I'm gonna use my workshop time to rewrite instead, which is um not how every playwright likes to work. Some people like to do a big, big, big rewrite, mostly just listen during the workshop week, and then like do their do another re-write based on that reading. That's I I am like uh I can't come in the next day with like we had to do a page one reprint because so much has changed.

Um so that's just the kind of writer I am. In terms of like how to go from that one spot though of like your play you think is is like production ready, taking it in, um, you know, it's so dependent on having the right team. Um, you know, I in a dream world where we've taken a director who is who we think is going to direct the play, and they have gone through at least one workshop process with us, so that we are going in like all on the same page already.

[30:18] Keiko Green: Um, I think the the most difficult times I've had have been going into a process and realizing that, oh, I thought that we were aligned, but we're actually not. And the only reason way to make sure you're aligned is by getting like a stab at it somehow before, even if it's just for like a reading or something. Um because some of these rehearsal processes are now three weeks, you know, less than three weeks before tech. There are only five-day work weeks now. We're tech is like eight out of tens. So, you know, there the organizations, and I and I and I am so thankful for them for making sure that people are, you know, having actual days off and having like lives that feel okay, you know, at least somewhat manageable, like a real person's like a real person stuff.

We are um we're also we're also not getting like another week because of that. So they're what they've done is they've just like taken away time to make our work, but the expectation is that the work is still gonna be as good. And so that's been really so now we're so reliant on these workshops all over the country, and those are getting taken away, you know.

[31:30] Keiko Green: And I'm like in this, I was extremely fortunate with this play, you are cordially invited to the end of the world, which just went up at South Coast Rep. Um, we have another production that hasn't been announced yet, but it's it's like having a great life already. Um that play, I was able to workshop last year at um at Pacific Playwrights Festival at in Fort Worth, Texas, at Amphibian Stage, uh The O'Neill in Connecticut, at Ashland New Plays Festival, at in Pasadena at Boston Court Theater, at um uh one more time at South Coast, and then the spring at second stage. I've gotten to workshop that play everywhere, and it got the script so much closer to where it was, and yet still in the rehearsal process, there was like giant things that we changed because you just don't know.

So you just have to be like really open to it, and and it's all about building a team where we are like all game and like when everyone has the same buy-in and everyone and and like the designers and the actors are all on the same page about what we're building, you know, that that's part of the being a playwright too, is just making sure that you're actively being part of the process where you're not just like letting the director hire everybody.

[32:44] Keiko Green: I mean, like you want them to obviously hire, especially designers like people that they know and trust um that they can work with, but like because you know the play better than anybody at the beginning. Later on, actors actually will be the ones that um know your play the best, but but um give it away to somebody who's building like the this company that's going to like decide what the play is. If you're not a part of that, at the especially at the beginning, I think you're you're really like doing yourself a disservice and setting up your play for not being something that you can be as proud of. And and I've been I've been that too. I've you know, only through experience can I say like that that's hard.

[33:22] Jennifer Apple: Do you advocate for yourself in negotiations of like I have this jurisdiction? Or is it more like do you know like okay if if I'm gonna be doing this production I need to have say on the director and then we have a conversation and then I make it very clear that I am and but like what is how do you make it clear that you are a playwright who wants to be involved with these kinds of decisions?

[33:43] Keiko Green: I think it it's almost always in my contract that I have approval on um on everyone pretty much like actors actors director designers. I think director is actually in the past where I've been a little bit um especially if I'm in like a a tertiary market or something where they're like we have two directors you can choose from or artistic director always directs if you're in our season. Yes or like my I already we already talked to somebody here so we would love for you to meet them but but it feels like they're really pressuring you to hire one one person already and I have hired that person and that has like almost always not gone great. Um you know I I think the best way to work which is what I do now is like if we're having a meeting to talk about directors if they already bring up like so I think that this should be this person and blah blah blah blah blah I am like I'm happy to meet with this person but we need to talk about first what I look for in a director like you're you're recommending someone without even knowing what I'm like in a room how I like to work what is necessary for this production.

[34:55] Keiko Green: You're just bringing up someone that you like you know and and we need to like way way back up. And so now I'm in a place where I feel really comfortable, not really comfortable. It's always I'm my heart is always still pounding, but I'm in a place where I can finally be like, we need to talk about process before we just start talking about like who who's a cool artist.

[35:13] Jennifer Apple: Um how do you do that when you're earlier? Like if you are not at this point now, like if you were yourself giving this advice to yourself earlier, now knowing what you know, how would you have navigated that sooner?

[35:25] Keiko Green: Yeah, I think that it's it's I mean it's the same thing. I I think that like ADs just get ahead of themselves because they're trying to get plays in and they're trying to also get like they're having meetings with directors all the time. So they're like, oh, they're trying they're matchmaking in their heads, and you just have to remind them that they're getting ahead of themselves. So if if I went to a meeting and I was like, I thought we were having a meeting about like basically putting out a list of directors, but instead I show up to them the meeting and the AD or associate or whoever is like, okay, so I've been talking to this directory in town. She's really excited, she read the play, she's available, and um, she's gonna be, I think she'd be she'd be a really great fit for you.

And I would be like, Okay, that's so great. Um, I'm I'm so excited to talk with that person before we just talk start talking about names. Can we just talk about like how we're working? Because, you know, if if I was like a super green writer, I would probably be like, this is gonna be my first production. This means a lot to me. And I want to make sure that I'm gonna be like really on the same page with this person. And I want someone who is going to be able to have a little bit more experience than I do, but I also want to make sure that they're gonna be someone who listens to me because I you know, this is this production is gonna mean a lot. So I think it's uh to me, I'm like transparency, honestly.

Like, I'm like an overcommunicator because I I I've undercommunicated before and it has and I've been like disappointed. So I at this point I'm just like, all of your worries, you know, don't whine, but um just be just be extremely empathetic and be like, here are the things that are on my mind.

[37:00] Keiko Green: And I think that that's usually met with like, oh my god, yes, of course. You know what? Why don't you think about like directors that you've liked or you know, I think a great thing to talk about is like even if you can't hire the directors that you love because they can't fly someone in or something, telling them, well, in the past when I've done even if it's just readings or or like workshops or even like school productions or whatever, directors that I really responded positively to have had these characteristics. And so it would be great to have to find someone who also in my case would be like prioritizes having fun in the rehearsal room over just it being like a really disciplined space only.

Um or I would be like, I would want to prioritize a um someone who really wants to hear everyone's idea and pick the best one versus um someone who's a little bit more hierarchical. Like those are things that I think are you can like a hundred percent ask for, and then the that then the AD will be like, Oh that's not actually the person that I suggested, or they'll be like, Okay, you definitely need to meet.

[38:07] Jennifer Apple: Have you been using the same monologue for years? Are you gearing up to apply for BA, BFA or MFA programs and need pieces for that process? Or maybe you just have no idea where to even start with monologue hunting. I get it. And that's why I offer monologue sourcing. This is a unique process where I find monologues chosen specifically for you. So many artists pick pieces based on external labels like type or for roles rather than finding material that represents who they truly are. So here's how it works. We'll meet virtually and you'll share all about who you are, your passions, values, beliefs, and everything in between. Don't worry, I will help guide you through this process. Then I'll get to work finding monologues that fit you like a glove with years of experience sourcing pieces for hundreds of artists.

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[39:25] Keiko Green: How are you finding yourself in these developmental spaces and or seasonal spaces? As in, are you submitting to residencies and um applying for grants? Are you are at this point now in your career? Are people reaching out to you and being like, hey, we want this, or what are you working on, or can we commission you? Like how are you getting and I guess also thinking back to maybe when you first started, like how did you begin to do that?

[39:51] Keiko Green: Yeah, I um I'm finally in a place now where I think everything I'm writing um is connected to something. It was either it's either a commission or it's from a writer's group, which means that it's technically still my own, which is which is nice to have like a couple free agents out there. Um so yes, so that's me now. Last year was my I I again, I was in like so many. I I told people I made like the festival tour. Um, because I just had like a really um kind of uh a zeitgeisty play, like cordially invited as super queer. It's about climate change, it's about grieving. There's a lot about it that feels like people were like really excited about it. So um I got to to go to a bunch of them. But yeah, I mean, starting out, I just applied to every single thing um that felt reputable.

The only things that I would pay to submit to was probably the the O'Neal. Um everything else, it was just like all of the Playwright Center fellowships. Did I get any of them? Absolutely not. Um I submitted to Bay Area Playwright Festival. Like I'm I'm listing all the things that I never got into mostly. Um what else? Um festivals, conferences, residencies, all of them. Um I think the first one I I got was um the playwrights realms scratch pad series. That was the first time I had ever gotten like flown out. Um I was still living in Seattle then, flown out to to New York, and um I I told them how important that that trip was because the last time I had been in New York, I think was when I had left when I was I was like feeling like a total failure because I couldn't make it in New York. I went into the subway on the way to my job on the bake at the bakery, and I just like held onto the pole above my head and just saw. Yeah, just cried.

[41:43] Jennifer Apple: I knew you were I was like, I knew where this was going. We've all been there.

[41:46] Keiko Green: Yeah, yeah. I called my dad when I got out of the subway. I was like, I think I have to leave. Um and I was just so tired. And then to go back with like a a little residency or fellowship, or I don't yeah, I don't even know what that's considered. It just felt like a new, it was like erasing how I was feeling about the city.

[42:08] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah. A new season. That's so nice.

[42:10] Keiko Green: Um yeah, and so yeah, and I and I was just on the phone with um this emerging writer who was like, how do I get in? Like do I need an agent? Do I you know and I I'm just like you the agent thing people get way ahead of themselves. Um you know it's like that's been a common theme.

[42:29] Jennifer Apple: Yeah way they'll find you.

[42:31] Keiko Green: They'll find you when when you're ready. Um the thing is like even if you have an agent when you're first starting out they're not gonna be able to do anything because you they no one knows you yet. And so like even after I got an agent my first productions were like all things that were based on my relationships and my connections of me kind of going out there trying to meet as many people as I could like I would I self-produced plays um in Seattle I would raise like three thousand dollars and build sets out of cardboard and duct tape and just like put up pieces and pay people like a hundred dollars um eventually I would submit to theaters that were um slightly bigger in Seattle the Annex Theater which was weirdly started by like Paul Giamatti and his friends but um it's a tiny tiny French theater where you can like um submit a proposal and that I got my first two productions that I didn't produce at the theater that that paid people like 50 bucks and but I wasn't producing it which was the dream.

[43:33] Keiko Green: And then you know so I for me it's really been step by step. It's like self producing producing at the smallest level submitting to fringe festival getting into a a writer's group based on one of them seeing, you know when when I had a production at the French theater, I invited every every fancy person in town. Um, one of the fancy people saw it and we're like, you should be part of our writer group. Joined the writer's group. Didn't get produced there, but the play that I wrote there got picked up by like a slightly bigger theater in town, which which got me like slightly more attention. And so it's just been kind of like a step-by-step thing. Um I I will say that for me, and some people are gonna hate to hear it. Grad school was very important.

[44:15] Jennifer Apple: Talk about it. Why why was that a decision you made?

[44:20] Keiko Green: Yeah, so I, you know, uh up until that point, I was working as an actor and like right my my writing sessions were kind of so forced in. Um I was an actor, but I also like when that when I wasn't on a show, I would be, you know, uh doing whatever side gig. And writing was always felt like I just didn't have enough time for it. And um, and I didn't I never applied to grad school because I was like, oh, I just can't afford that. And then I found out that there were these fully funded programs. Um so I was like, okay, if I I'm gonna apply to only the schools that are like free and pay you to go to teach. And if I get into one of those, then I'll be like, okay, I am a writer. Um, and I'll be able to like really proudly call myself that, and I'm gonna just devote my time to writing.

Um so I I applied to a few schools and I um uh and ended up getting into a couple, but I I still I chose UC San Diego because I had visited a couple other schools and they felt really competitive. And I was just coming from the acting world, I was just like, I just don't want to, I just don't want that right now. I want to go to a cohort where we're like celebrating each other. And UC San Diego very much felt like that, and I still I I I stand by that. I I think it still is. There's no, you know, everybody gets a production, so there's no, you're not fighting for opportunity, and the classes are so small that you kind of like have to be friends, otherwise you have zero friends. Um it's miserable.

[45:55] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and so I wanted to go to that school. I'm really glad that I went not right out of undergrad. Um, I know a lot of people are wanting to like go straight in, but um what I've noticed is that and not everybody obviously, but a lot of the people that go straight from undergrad into grad school are so they don't know how yes.

[46:19] Keiko Green: Well they they don't know what they want out of the program yet, actually. Like they know that they want production.

[46:24] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yeah.

[46:25] Keiko Green: Yeah. I think that's the same for me and my MFA also. Like the kids who came directly out of undergrad for the MFA versus the kids who are like, you have been out there and you're and you have gone as far as you can on your own, and then then like, man, I'm stuck. I don't know how to get to the next part. And you're going in with like, I'm and I need and I know that I need time to to write, and I and also I've been wanting to take writing classes, but they're so expensive. Like for me, going in, I was like trying to take a playwriting class, and I was like, oh man, I can't afford this. Me going into that um is I'm not gonna take that class for granted because I know how expensive education can be, versus like someone straight out of undergrad might not be at the top of their mind.

Be that they're just like, oh yeah, I just keep I just keeping in school. Like and and there's just like a a different um I think there's a difference in like how much we're celebrating our time um and really taking advantage of that. And UC San Diego is specifically a school that's kind of also more a residency than like school school. Um so it's you can write one play a year, or you can write three plays a year, which is what I did, what Dave Harris did, what Lauren Yee did. We were all wrote nine plays, I think, while we were in school.

[47:43] Jennifer Apple: So and so the fact that you've gone to grad school, also do you feel like obviously you came out with the breadth of nine plays, which is incredible. But did you also I would imagine have some networking that was involved with also opening up some doors because of who you met through the various professors and the teachers and the people that you were collaborating with? You felt like that was the stepping stone as well.

[48:02] Keiko Green: When I see the people that come from New York that go to grad school, they might not have the same experience. But I I when I went um from C I had been in Seattle for years, you know, and going down to San Diego. The every year we have a Wagner Festival, which is like this play festival where you have oh, if you're first year you have a one act, and if you're a second or third year, you have a full-length play produced, and they invite like eight to ten industry people, and that's like artistic directors and literary managers and agents, and that they fly in and like schmooze, um, you know, like we wine and dine them. Um, and it's an amazing, amazing thing that Naomi Zuka has built there because people actually like want to be invited.

Um when we were making a list for that, like I was the only playwright in my in the first year um when when I started, it's a really small program. So it was me in the first year, Vivian Barnes was in the second year, and then there were three playwrights in the third year, which were and like fancy, like Dave Harris and Mara Nelson Greenberg and Ali Viterbi. So they're just five of us, and we're making a list of like these guests that we might want to invite. And I couldn't name a single person.

[49:23] Keiko Green: What about there? They're just talking about all of the artistic directors and literary managers. And I just realized I didn't know the names of anyone. Um, that's that was such a sobering moment of like, oh, I think I've been in a bit of a regional bubble where I haven't had access. I didn't even know I definitely didn't have the network, but I certainly I didn't even know their names, you know. Um, and so I do think that that opened my eyes up a little bit of just like, oh, I need to be I I I need to kind of I I need to like relearn the whole industry and like not just like I need to meet people, but I I need to learn how this works because I didn't know that playwrights like knew things like this.

And to be to be fair, I'm still pretty bad at names. Yeah, but to even just understand that there's an infrastructure that also within this section of the industry functions, and that like who were the people and the players within that. And I think, yeah, that's a really wonderful reminder for all of us, especially you know, many of us folks who are multi hyphenates, where it's like maybe we probably have one of the hyphens that like was our beginner hyphen, and we know a lot deeper and more intimately. And as we continue exploring other parts of what's possible or decide to pivot or whatnot, like just because it's a part of the same overall umbrella industry doesn't mean that it also doesn't have its own people and ways of working and the things to know that operate within that own little bubble for that hat or you know, title as well, which I think is a good reminder.

[50:52] Keiko Green: Absolutely, yeah. And the multi-hyphen, it's honestly we have it a little bit easier, I think. I mean, there there's like a pro and a con. The con is that like it's sometimes it's hard to get people to take you seriously as a new thing when you're when they know you as the first thing. But we also know people already, usually. So it's like getting, you know, if there's a director that you that you really vibed with who is like, you know, I remember Eric Eric Ting, who's the ADS Soho rep now, he directed the world premiere of The Great Leap, which I happened to get because a girl dropped out. And so I got to do this show in the Den in Denver Center and um Seattle rep. And I worked with him, I really liked him.

I'm pretty sure he liked me too. And when I became a playwright, he was one of the first people that was like, send me something. Like I'd love to read it. Um, and so but like I wouldn't get to have that if I didn't already know him as an actor. And so there's um, you know, I've I've held off a little bit with some of those people on like I wanna wait until I don't want to like send them a bad play. Um I will send my friends a bad play, but I was like, I don't want to send him a play that's not ready yet. And I to be honest, I actually took too long, I think, to to first with some of those people like sending them something because I just was like, I I was too scared that I that I just I didn't want to like mess up what I thought was my one chance, but it's actually you don't get one chance. Um, but that having access to people like that, I I I I knew a lot more people because I was an actor and um I just had to be really smart about when I was reaching out to them.

[52:27] Keiko Green: Yeah. The one thing I do think people should know is like it's okay to send people material that's a little um not not totally solid yet. Um, but you should understand that some people are probably not gonna read us a revision. So it's like just as long as you're okay with you know, being like, hey, this play is um still being developed, blah blah blah. But like this is the basic gist of it. If they're if they didn't vibe with that, even if you are like, hey, I did a revision on that play, they're probably not gonna read it. Um, so you just have to be okay with that. So like that's the only thing I think keep in mind before sending something out that's like not ready.

[53:08] Jennifer Apple: How do you find time and or make time and or structure your time to write? Do you enjoy the writing process now? Did you have you always? And like, do you put it on your calendars like I'm writing for four hours? Or do you not write for a while and then all of a sudden it pours out of you? Like, what is your process in the actual doing of the thing?

[53:28] Keiko Green: Yeah, I am a person that blocks out time in my calendar. Um, I put both like four hour, usually I do it in four-hour chunks. I'll be like four hours on this. That way I look at my calendar and it doesn't seem like work. It feels like, oh, that's easy, it's just four hours. That seems doable. And um, and but I also put on like the all day I'm I put on like projects that I should be working on. Um, and usually those are two different projects. So that way, like if I don't feel like working on the one that I've have blocked, I can work on this other thing, and that feels like procrastinating, but I'm actually still doing work.

[54:07] Jennifer Apple: That was my other question too. It's like, are you somebody who can write a lot of things at the same time? Like I would imagine if you're being commissioned, you have to write the thing by this deadline, but also for yourself, if you have this idea for another thing you want to, like what is the balance?

[54:17] Keiko Green: Yes, I um do I actually thrive working on multiple projects at a time. I have like major ADHD, which I think is also part of it, which is helpful. Um sometimes that's been tricky, especially recently. Like we were in first we we had our first week of rehearsal for Cordially Invited at the at South Coast Rep. And then I was in New York and we were like workshopping a different play for my second week and and that was a heavy rewriting workshop. So I was like I we probably reprinted the entire script twice, you know but like in the evening as I'm still getting like rehearsal reports from this other show and like emails about like questions about like hey and this that part I do think gets a little tricky and my brain can start to feel a little overloaded.

Um that's the hardest part I think I think when the only thing that slows me down is before I start if if I'm like in the middle of a writing process, I like to s read from the beginning to wherever I every day I I actually wow this is so funny. I've never I don't think I've ever realized that I do this but every time I sit down to write I read everything that I've written up until that point. So if I'm near the end of a play, I think that's why it takes so long because like every day I'm sitting down and I'm reading the whole play up until that moment.

[55:35] Jennifer Apple: Are you editing as you go or you don't let yourself do that?

[55:38] Keiko Green: I think I'm editing a bit as I go but the but the goal is to get to the end. So I'm like I'll fix little things here and there but I'll be like oh that's for later. Sometimes I'll bold it or highlight it to be like look at this but the main goal is like is is to just read it up until then it's it's the same thing that I was talking about earlier with like having if you're stuck having people come in and just read everything you have so far because it's like I don't know that everybody's brain works this way, but certainly for me, it's like it's like when you're watching a movie and you get to the like the last 20 minutes, you could just pause it there and be like, hey, how do you guys think this movie's gonna end?

And everyone will have an idea, you know. The goal is like, how can you get yourself to listen to your own thing as if you don't already know it, you know? Your preconceived notions and as the you know, it's like I think the hardest part of writing is like creating an objective brain constantly.

[56:38] Keiko Green: For anybody who like is like either starting their writing journey or is wanting to start, what would be your like beginning recommendation starter kit? I talk about this all the time, and I find it slightly embarrassing that it's again not like a cool intellectual um tip. But the South Park guys, um, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, they've they've put this on YouTube, this like five-minute story thing where it's it's basic the bait. I mean, the basic idea is just like you know it's a bad story when it's like this happens and then this happens and then this happens. And the version of that that works is this happens, therefore this happens, but this happens, therefore this happens. So everything is kind of like crashing into each other.

I think the other thing about that is like making sure that your your characters are not passive. Like a a thing about the this happens and then this happens is like usually those things are happening to your character rather than that your character is making choices that then they are dealing with the consequences of. And like that's just way first of all, a better story, and second of all, gonna be way more fun for your actors because like there's something so juicy about like pushing actors into or characters into situations. I mean, you you basically like write a character you love and then you torture them for 90 minutes. Like that's what writing is, you know, like what is the worst thing that could happen to them in the situation, and then you do that to them. Um and then like see if they make it out on the other side. It's just like so brutal.

[58:12] Keiko Green: Um yeah, and and I I do have like one um thing that I always tell actors that I'm working with when they're like, what do you think like actors are all are are not doing? And my my biggest um piece of advice to actors is like if you're working on a new play and the and well, actually, it whether or not it's a world premiere. If you're working on a new play or auditioning for a new play, watch interviews with that playwright talking about and literally anything because the way that they speak, their cadence, the speed of their language, all of that is how they're most likely gonna write. Not always, but often. And so, like, you can learn a lot about how the play is supposed to work by just like watching the playwright talk a little bit.

[59:01] Jennifer Apple: I love that advice. I love that. Um, thank you so much for this conversation and for going on this journey and for sharing your process and being so open about all of it, and um for just being vibrant and creating incredible work that's like now in the canon that people can read and and do, which is just like a true gift. So thank you for um being here and being a part of this playwright mini series. I'm grateful for it.

[59:02] Keiko Green: Um thank you so much. That's a pleasure.

[59:33] Jennifer Apple: Of course, for anybody who wants to read your work or wants to uh collaborate with you or reach out or follow along with your journey. What within your boundaries is the best way for people to reach out?

[59:43] Keiko Green: Yeah, you can go to I I have a website, um, KekoGreen.com. You can catch me on Instagram, Keiko the Green. I'm on New Play Exchange. I usually have all of my plays up available on New Play Exchange. I I've just taken down three of them because they're um gonna be published. Um, so I I'm just having to take those down, but everything else is available, and I also have monologue. I'm I'm trying to do my best to like highlight the monologues that are great um on New Play Exchange as well. But there's a lot. There's and there's a lot for like people of all um I don't only write Asian American like female character monologues. I write like so many different kinds of people. So um usually there's something for everybody.

[1:00:30] Jennifer Apple: I love it. Thank you so much for being here.

[1:00:33] Keiko Green: Thank you so much for having me.

[1:00:34] Jennifer Apple: That's it for today's episode. I hope you walk away with some fresh insights, feel inspired and a little more empowered to take the next step on your artistic journey. Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. You've got this, and we're here cheering you on every step of the way. If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to hit subscribe so you'll never miss out on the discussions we have each week. And if something today really resonated with you, please leave us a review. It truly is one of the best ways to help other artists find our podcast and join in on the conversations. Plus, we feel the love too when you do. And don't keep all this goodness to yourself.

Share this episode with your people or post about it on social media. Be sure to tag at Empowered Artist Collective and at Jennifer Apple underscore so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going. As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, and thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Keep creating, keep thriving, stay empowered. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.