This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jennifer Apple: Hello.

[0:01] Jennifer Apple: Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:04] Jennifer Apple: I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, a multi-hyphenate actor, educator, acting coach, writer, dog mom, and founder of this vibrant community that champions artists as they carve out their own unique paths in this wild industry.

[0:17] Jennifer Apple: Whether you're just starting out in the thick of it or seeking a bit of artistic fuel to expand your toolbox, you're in the right place.

[0:24] Jennifer Apple: In this space, we'll have honest conversations, share actionable strategies, tips, and resources, and delve into the messy yet beautiful journey of living a sustainable creative life.

[0:34] Jennifer Apple: We unmask the reality of life as an artist, from navigating career highs and lows to nurturing your full human well-being.

[0:42] Jennifer Apple: I chat with women and non-binary guests who share their personal stories, helpful learnings, and hearts to help you unlock your artistic potential, expand your knowledge, and show up fully and fearlessly in your artistry and daily life.

[0:55] Jennifer Apple: Before we dive into this week's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

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[1:18] Jennifer Apple: All right, grab a cup of something cozy, settle in, and let's get to it.

[1:22] Jennifer Apple: What does it look like to lead a major cultural institution with courage, care, and a commitment to collective transformation?

[1:29] Jennifer Apple: In this episode of our Artistic Director miniseries, I chat with director, writer, community organizer, and artistic director of the New York Theatre Workshop, Patricia McGregor, about how her full identity shapes her leadership.

[1:42] Jennifer Apple: She shares how she curates using a funnel model rooted in collaboration and grounds her programming in rigor, risk, and relevance.

[1:50] Jennifer Apple: From building an artistic compass to reframing fundraising as a meaningful invitation, we also candidly discuss burnout, tools for leading with purpose while centering others, and why leadership isn't about holding power but holding space.

[2:03] Jennifer Apple: Whether you're stepping into leadership, shaping your own practice, or dreaming of systemic change, this episode offers grounded inspiration and tools for how to lead artfully and live your values out loud.

[2:15] Jennifer Apple: Enjoy Patricia McGregor.

[2:17] Patricia McGregor: Welcome to this space.

[2:19] Patricia McGregor: Thank you so much for having me.

[2:21] Patricia McGregor: For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:25] Patricia McGregor: Today I am the artistic director of New York Theatre Workshop.

[2:30] Patricia McGregor: I am a writer, a director, an organizer, a mother, a wife, a community builder, a holder of grief, an audacious warrior towards horizons that we see through a fog.

[2:47] Patricia McGregor: And very happy to be here with you.

[2:50] Jennifer Apple: Ugh. I love that you just did like full encompassing professional human feeling and also arguably like values statement, just like all combined into one.

[3:02] Jennifer Apple: Um, I'm here for it.

[3:03] Jennifer Apple: You know, when we were deciding like with what quote unquote category we wanted to put this in, whether we wanted to have you fall under the artistic director bucket or the director bucket, and arguably we chose the artistic director bucket, I think because of the fact that you have an extensive background in so many other things, and to be able to showcase that breadth of work falling underneath this umbrella, and also being, I would imagine part of how you do this particular title that felt really important to be able to be like, okay, just because again, there's this one label that does not in any way diminish these other incredible and also active labels, and arguably that is the way in which you do the thing.

[3:48] Jennifer Apple: And so I'm curious to hear your origin story of you as an artist, I guess.

[3:55] Patricia McGregor: I mean, like we could dial back to when you were a kid, but you know, the trans, the movement towards how you ended up as the artistic director for a New York Theatre Workshop, but and the way in which you use these other parts of your identity, personally, interpersonally, creatively, relationally, to do this job.

[4:17] Patricia McGregor: I'll try and snap through maybe four little snapshots.

[4:20] Patricia McGregor: One, which is a part of when I was a kid, because I realized more and more how important those early seeds were.

[4:27] Patricia McGregor: So I was born in St. Croix in the US Virgin Islands.

[4:30] Patricia McGregor: My mom was an art teacher and an educator and an organizer.

[4:34] Patricia McGregor: And so my two earliest memories of performance and art were a carnival, you know, where we had Three Kings Day Parade and all kinds of parades, and my sister and I danced with Caribbean Dance Company.

[4:45] Patricia McGregor: And so performance was like out on the street.

[4:48] Patricia McGregor: It was vibrant, it made you feel more alive.

[4:50] Patricia McGregor: It was participatory.

[4:52] Patricia McGregor: There was sometimes a bleeding line between the audience and the performer, and there is something about that vibrancy and the desire for the level of access, ritual theatricality that was embedded in it.

[5:04] Patricia McGregor: But actually, for all of the training and all of the work that I do indoors and all of the different international references, I do feel like there's something of that, you know, Caribbean carnival experience that is part of me because my mom was also a teacher and union organizer, some of my first performances were also on picket lines.

[5:25] Patricia McGregor: So when I was in kindergarten and my sister was in maybe third or fourth grade, you know, the teachers' union was striking for better salaries and so we performed on the picket line and that was like part of my performance was that and so I think those things are still a part of my practice, they're still a part of my way of thinking of artist resistance and participatory, vibrant theatricality and the desire to break down barriers to access.

[5:54] Patricia McGregor: So that was early, but then I thought of myself as more of a sports person growing up until I got to Orlando, Florida.

[6:01] Patricia McGregor: I got asthma, I couldn't compete the same way I wanted to and luckily there was public funding at that time for arts.

[6:10] Patricia McGregor: And so I started to take theater classes and I was a performer.

[6:14] Patricia McGregor: I was in Orlando at the time when Disney and Nickelodeon allowed you to have an agent when I was 13.

[6:19] Patricia McGregor: I used to host documentaries for SeaWorld and do Disney and Nickelodeon and all those kinds of things.

[6:25] Patricia McGregor: So it felt like being a part of the making this a career felt really possible early on which I felt really lucky about.

[6:25] Patricia McGregor: I went to SMU in Dallas as a performer which was amazing but also the racial tensions on the campus were pretty intense.

[6:40] Patricia McGregor: And I read Athol Fugard's My Children! My Africa!.

[6:43] Patricia McGregor: There wasn't a role in it for me but I thought I want to make this piece to be in conversation with what's going on in the world.

[6:49] Patricia McGregor: You know, so from my Caribbean roots to my undergrad campus it was always like how do I use art as the way to participate in the conversation in a certain kind of way.

[7:00] Patricia McGregor: So I directed my first show there.

[7:03] Patricia McGregor: And it was a game changer for me.

[7:05] Patricia McGregor: I remember the feeling of sitting in the back watching the audience watch this event that we created, and then we had wraparound conversations about race and how what South Africa has to learn from the US and the US from South Africa and all that.

[7:18] Patricia McGregor: And I was like ding-ding-ding, this is the thing I'm gonna love.

[7:22] Patricia McGregor: Um, and so directing really became my focus.

[7:25] Patricia McGregor: And I did that for about 20 years in a variety of ways.

[7:29] Patricia McGregor: Moved to New York, did New York, did it regionally, did some internationally, did a little bit of television and film directing.

[7:37] Patricia McGregor: And then I always knew I loved curating other people's work as well.

[7:41] Patricia McGregor: When I went to graduate school, I was the artistic director at the Yale Cabaret, and I loved it.

[7:46] Patricia McGregor: And as much as I'm in a much bigger place right now, a lot of the same principles hold true.

[7:50] Patricia McGregor: That you know that you were there to curate work from visionary artists and do everything you can to support them.

[7:58] Patricia McGregor: And so I knew I'd want to go into leadership and I knew it had to be the right kind of organization where there were already artists that I loved and that there was something that I thought I could bring to that place.

[8:09] Patricia McGregor: And so when the workshop came up, it had already been a home.

[8:12] Patricia McGregor: I was a usual suspect, but it felt like the right time where both I could get behind the vision for supporting people who artists and education engagement programs and audiences that I really loved, and also it's a hard time in the field right now.

[8:24] Patricia McGregor: So I feel like the part of me that is strong-shouldered and the part of me that's like I'm gonna help get it through.

[8:30] Patricia McGregor: I often say, like, put the ball in my hands, I'm gonna help, you know, get it over the line.

[8:35] Patricia McGregor: Um, I thought this particular organization was really important, which really supports a variety of artists in really exciting ways.

[8:44] Patricia McGregor: And in a time of contraction, I wanted not to lose this organization.

[8:48] Patricia McGregor: I actually wanted to hold more ground to support more artists, so it felt like a real commitment.

[8:54] Patricia McGregor: So those are some of the kind of snapshots that got me from like sequins as a kid and performing on these picket lines to running, I think one of the most important arts organizations to our field and feeling really committed to the artist and nourishing artists that it's going to serve.

[9:12] Patricia McGregor: Cause I think these times need artists' art and conversations that can be had after the art and the community that can be built because of the art.

[9:22] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[9:23] Jennifer Apple: Thank you for sharing all of that.

[9:25] Jennifer Apple: I love an origin story.

[9:27] Jennifer Apple: I love the perspective that we are able to give when we reflect on ourselves, having lived through the thing ourselves, but then looking back on it and what we remember, what we don't, and what stays relevant or important or what in a different moment then becomes an oh, right, this was really relevant.

[9:43] Jennifer Apple: And I, you know, the thread that I'm hearing, especially when you're like, I did sports and then I pivoted, is really this level of teammateness of like just working together in a team, the collaboration part of the art is seems quite fundamental through all of the parts of things and also this idea of being, as you said, a champion for other folks.

[10:06] Jennifer Apple: And you made the reference like on your back, but in some ways, like paving the way for it or being able to hold the space for it.

[10:15] Jennifer Apple: Um, and that you it seems like there is a very clear understanding of your dare I say responsibility as an artist to be able to do that for others.

[10:26] Jennifer Apple: It feels very giving in that way, which I just want to reflect back, feels quite beautiful and poignant.

[10:33] Jennifer Apple: And so um I love that that arguably is also the way you found, you know, in your theater workshop, where it's like this is a space to do exactly that.

[10:42] Jennifer Apple: And the ethos around that particular organization with your own together is kind of a beautiful amalgamation.

[10:49] Jennifer Apple: And then the art that then comes from that, you know that you are able to fully get behind it, which speaks volumes to the work that you are all doing.

[10:57] Patricia McGregor: Thank you.

[10:58] Patricia McGregor: That it means a lot.

[10:59] Patricia McGregor: And I do, it's both joy.

[11:02] Patricia McGregor: There's like deep joy and privilege in the job, and I also take very seriously the responsibility and the opportunity to serve artists and audiences.

[11:11] Patricia McGregor: And for example, I hosted this outdoor celebration as a part of this workout initiative that we're doing, sponsored by the Mellon Foundation.

[11:20] Patricia McGregor: And in it, we celebrated on our block, because I always say, let's start, we talk about community engagement, let's just start where you are.

[11:27] Patricia McGregor: Yeah.

[11:28] Patricia McGregor: So on our block, there's an incredible octogenarian photographer named Alex Harsley.

[11:32] Patricia McGregor: He has this Fourth Street photo lab and photo gallery, and we honored him and it was a part of open streets and there were all kinds of celebrations, and he's kind of shy in his own way.

[11:44] Patricia McGregor: And when I said to him, I asked him about the day and what it meant, and he said, Well, I've been on the block for 50 years and I'm finally getting my due, you know, and it was like joking, but it was also a real opportunity to highlight and uplift and celebrate somebody who we often pass by, kind of the local legends.

[12:09] Patricia McGregor: And one of the things I love about the workshop is there's a lot of focus on intergenerational work as well.

[12:14] Patricia McGregor: So much as we may produce people who are in, you know, their 30s through their 50s often, we are looking for voices that are just making their way center stage or voices that may have been overlooked and education engagement programs that connect all of those people because I do think that it is a team sport.

[12:34] Patricia McGregor: Yeah.

[12:34] Patricia McGregor: And you know, and how I can make sure that people who might have been more sidelined are able to really take center stage is a great, very purposeful joy for me.

[12:48] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[12:48] Jennifer Apple: I'm curious about how you feel you artistic direct.

[12:53] Jennifer Apple: What I mean by that is being the fourth of this series, we've heard from three other artistic directors who do it in their own way and find their own structure, the way in which they find they collaborate, how much are they sitting back versus leaning forward and when is that happening?

[13:12] Jennifer Apple: So I'm curious if you feel like you are in a groove of it, if you know what that is, and if not, like what are some of the things that you are already discovering to maybe be your pillars of your artistic directorship.

[13:23] Patricia McGregor: I would say one of the things that is most akin to my directing, which is the curation.

[13:31] Patricia McGregor: And I often say as a director, I work in a funnel.

[13:34] Patricia McGregor: So everything's possible in the beginning.

[13:37] Patricia McGregor: Like you have an idea, let's try it.

[13:39] Patricia McGregor: You have, you know, and that could be designers, actors.

[13:42] Patricia McGregor: And then in the middle phase of the rehearsal process, we're kind of navigating and making some choices.

[13:47] Patricia McGregor: And by the end, I'm quite precise.

[13:49] Patricia McGregor: By the end, I'm like, I've taken in all the information, and now for better or for worse, I take both the joy and responsibility of making this final decision and pretty precise about it.

[14:00] Patricia McGregor: So I love to hear from as many trusted people as possible about ideas for curation.

[14:07] Patricia McGregor: And some of that curation can be mainstage curation, and some of that curation can be actually more like part of our development or education engagement work.

[14:20] Patricia McGregor: But we try to, through our artistic department, through our usual suspects, through relationships we're making in the hyper-local community, we try and get as much information as possible.

[14:32] Patricia McGregor: And I often say I'm interested in curating in thirds. So a third of people that are like core New York Theatre Workshop people that you've known and loved for a period of time. So that could be Rachel Chafkin, it could be Whitney White, it could be people who have already done a lot of work at New York Theatre Workshop and they're solid New York Theatre Workshop. A third of it are people who I might bring in, people who I might say, from this 25 years in the professional work in the field in New York, here's some people I'm gonna introduce, and then keeping our ear open for the final third, which is the trickiest third. How do we continue to get new voices in? How do we continue to kind of listen to what those stories are?

But that's a big pile at the top, and then we hone it in and we hone it in, and then at the end, I really try to listen hard to what people say, and at the end I say, for better or for worse, I'm gonna make the final decision about taking this over the line. And there's both great kind of joy and privilege, and then there's a deep responsibility, which I'm like, listen, the numbers are bad. We might get 500 incredible scripts. We have people like Tony Kushner on a waiting list to kind of figure out when legitimately, like who is a part of the core family who are you we're in direct conversation with, yeah. But it is both a joyful and heavy burden to say there are so many incredible artists that we want to say yes to, and in the end, we are going to have to make some final decisions. So I would say curatorially, I work like a director, and it's like a funnel.

[16:06] Patricia McGregor: I would say we often talk in the workshop about what's your superpower or what's the thing that you have to do if nobody else does. And so I would say three of my superpowers that are most important. One, which is like seeing the horizon through the storm, right? Because we're in a time where lots of storm, lots of contraction, and the instinct is to kind of retreat. And part of what I bring is to talk about the horizon we want to get to and the why. And sometimes that can be exhausting, and sometimes I have to have patience about the strategy of when how when and how we roll row the oars. But I am not afraid of the storm, and I am determined to be clear about the horizon we're trying to get to.

And so I feel like that's one of the things that's really important for me is to vision not just trying to hold on to where we are and not just sustainability, actually. I want to go for vitality. I want to go, you know, I want to vision that further shore that we're gonna try and get to. And then some of it is value-aligned, timely crisis management. You know, we are talking just to be very transparent, we're speaking right now about our protocols around ice and what happens if there's a knock on the door, and what is our advocacy and what is our clarity. And we often say, like, I want to get that call. Like, I don't care what other meeting it we're in, what out, and that's a very heightened level of crisis, but I think there's a variety of elements like that where I think part of what I can bring to the artistic directorship is not being shaken by saying, okay, there's something that we need to deal with, and we're gonna put else aside and we're gonna put our feet on the ground and we're gonna figure out how to move that thing forward.

[18:01] Patricia McGregor: And then I guess maybe the last part is those two are kind of muscular and structural and serious in a certain kind of way. And the last thing is for me to bring a sense of like play and delight. I often say I'm a serious clown, like I'm a clown, but I'm actually a serious clown. And kind of keep curious curiosity is one of my favorite qualities. And so to keep curiosity, to keep play, to keep humor, to keep levity, to keep delight in the conversation. And so I would say curatorially, I'm like a funnel. And then maybe functionally, I function on the extremes where I try to keep the horizon and the delight and the lightness there. And then I'm also there to carry the very heavy loads. I'm also there, you know, the things in the middle, it's not necessarily my strong suit. I'm not the like, I'm not the I'm not gonna run the middle leg of the race. Yeah, but I'm good for like shooting us out and figuring out the horizon and then also carrying the heavy things.

[19:17] Jennifer Apple: All of that is so clear, and also I appreciate you acknowledging the strengths with the, I wouldn't call it weaknesses, the strengths with like what you know that you want to share with other folks. So they can hold that differently in a way that is perhaps more sustainable. And you know, emotionally, what I'm hearing through this too is that, you know, there is again like this clear, steadfast groundedness of like the knowing, inner knowing, and also like the outer knowing of like seeing a full picture and being able to like have clarity from that. That combined with like responsibility with like with care of like we're holding that, and it's not a burden. It's actually the joy to hold responsibility and the positive, and then this beautiful curiosity around the collaboration with other folks who have ideas, know a lot, and you admire, and all of that being this beautiful synergy of the way in which you work.

And so I it's super cool for me to hear that. I admire that as I think it's a really honorable framework, especially given the times that we're living in, to be able to know that your strength is to be that line through the difficult storm and to be able to be like, it's okay to hold on with me. I have you in a very real tangible way.

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[21:17] Jennifer Apple: I am curious how you make those decisions, those like final funnel decisions when it comes down to you. Are there certain obviously I'd imagine there are the financial things that you have to consider in an institution? There are the optics of we've done this in the past year, we might have to do something different or otherwise. But I'm curious if there are very specific detail markers or it's like a gut thing or a both.

[21:41] Patricia McGregor: I think it's both. I would say in terms of the full productions, because we only have four to five. And I'm trying to get us back to five. But when I think of that side, I think a lot about how in production, we are thinking as much about the art audience as we are about the artists. We are really thinking in these times, I'll often say, what are the three R's? Rigor, risk, and relevance. What is the rigor of the piece? Has it been kind of cooked enough that if we serve it to people, it's gonna be the most savory, virtuosic, whatever version? What is the risk of the piece? At the workshop in particular, I'll often say if the piece feels like it could go to every regional theater and a whole lot of other places, and a lot of places are just ready to snap it up, it may not be the thing for us.

We are a place that's I feel has the capacity and has the value alignment to be a place where you can touch the third rail, or you can't experiment with form, or you can provoke a dialogue that some people are gonna be uncomfortable with, or you can't ask for something to make an artist's dream come true in a wild way. So that's what I'd say about the risk. It's not that we're intentionally trying to be risky or provocative, but we're willing to hold those pieces and not necessarily just go down the center of the road.

[23:11] Patricia McGregor: And so that's one frame I think about. And then the relevance. Ultimately, we are losing the ability to be in dialogue and to trust narratives and information that are being shared. You know, the attack and gutting of journalism, the censoring of our artists, the inability for people to be in conversation with each other. And so the relevance, I think with these four to five shows we have, you don't know who's gonna walk through the door. We've had both folks just on the block who are kind of trying to figure things out in their own lives or with each other. We've had people like Anna Wintour or the people from the UN in our small little small but mighty 200-seat theater on East Fourth Street.

There is a transformational power of what can happen with whoever walks in the door. So my goal is to make sure that we're able to have the most nourishing and potentially transformational art on that stage. So that's on the kind of producing. That's on the what are the five slots that we curate. And at the end of the day, it hits my gut. Somebody's gonna have a different idea, even within our artistic team. Somebody might say, Ah, I thought we should have done something else. I really try and listen to that. But at the end of the day, I'm looking at what is that matrix? What is like when I first directed, what is that tender space between the performance and the audience and what I feel like can happen so that there's a transformation in that space, and that transformation is trying to activate whether it's personally or collectively, like a transformation in the world.

[24:53] Patricia McGregor: I often say if we were living in another world, I would do happy, happy joy joy the musical every day, all day, wouldn't that be wonderful? My clown would be delighted. Yeah, but we're not living in that world yet. So what pieces and can use art specifically, like the lane that art does, which is different than just a lecture, different than just, you know, it's its own particular lane that really gets the hearts and minds of people in a certain kind of way. And so, how can I curate a range of theatrical work that can nourish, provoke, excite, and transform people? That is really part of what we're looking at, at least right now, especially in the times that we're in. So that's how I think it.

And then our workshop side is different because our workshop side is really about nourishing artists and community. So there might be a piece that like feels really early on, or an artist that's never done a piece before. But in, and sometimes there's a bridge between the workshop side and the production side, but the goals, the kind of like final yes or no of the workshop are very different. The workshop might be there could be a elder playwright who just hasn't had who needs to be nourished, who hasn't had a play done in 10 years. And so they need a reading, they need a workshop. There could be something that's wildly experimental, and they need to go to one of our residencies, like a Delphi, because they need to be in a big space away from the city.

It's really that side is really about nurturing the artist and trying to have cohorts of artists that nurture each other. Because I think one of the really special things about our summer residencies is we're not only giving time and space and resources to individual artists or pieces, but they get to know each other and they really leave closer with each other. And I think that can be really valuable.

[26:43] Patricia McGregor: And again, it's still hard. We get to say a lot more yeses to the workshop side. But we still see a lot of painful no's for people who I think are extraordinary artists, but we're always searching for a yes. So even if it's a no now, it's we often think like, well, can we invite them to the potluck this year? So that we can continue to be in conversation because what we can offer, what we hope to offer is community. Like that's the biggest, that's the biggest bubble. That's the most sustainable bubble because we could even put major resources behind production, but our usual there's over 500 usual suspects. There's no way to even program our usual suspects for the next 20 years. So, how can we in all the offerings say yes to the things that on the production side really feel like they are meeting the audience and the artist in a very particular way? And then on the workshop and engagement and education engagement side, really making the net much, much wider of the community that we can hold and hold up.

[27:50] Jennifer Apple: Um, it's fascinating to hear, and I think it's helpful for folks to be reminded, and it's always helpful for myself to be reminded of like no matter where you're playing, there's always other people who are playing in that lane with you. As in, as in like, you know, when you think about you see like a movie with an A-list star, there were 20 other A-list stars that were also on that list. So it's like it never gets easier in some way, like no matter where you are, you're just playing in a different space.

[28:14] Patricia McGregor: Yes.

[28:15] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[28:15] Patricia McGregor: Yeah.

[28:16] Jennifer Apple: And that idea that, like, yeah, the Tony Kushners of the world are also like on said wait list. And it's like, right, right, right. We're like talking about we're trying to make space for so much art. And because art is so plentiful and expansive and intersectional and whatever, it's like from where our entry point is vast. And to hold space for 500 artists and like all of their gorgeousness and vision, we don't necessarily have the resources for that. And so that leads me to my non-cute question about like fundraising.

[28:50] Patricia McGregor: I think that's the thing that folks, when they think about artistic directors versus, say, a director, they're like, oh, well, now that I'm leading an organization or an institution, I'm gonna have to engage in the producing side, which includes some finances and the financial fundraising side, which obviously does.

[29:08] Jennifer Apple: How have you navigated that part of the job? Is it something that you feel is actually relatively easy for you because you believe in the thing so deeply, or has it been like a learning experience? As you're like, okay, I've done the directing thing as its own lane for a while, and now in addition, this is like okay. I don't know how does it feel for you and what do you do?

[29:29] Patricia McGregor: I'll say I am an audacious and pretty successful fundraiser because I really believe that what we bring is as important as any billionaire or foundation or anyone that I am talking to. So I don't mind talking to like the restaurant on the corner that yesterday we've built partnership, and so they're gonna add popcorn because they want to be a part, and we're gonna come to their community meeting, or talking to like some of the biggest foundations in the world or individuals, because I really believe in the art that we're doing, and I really believe in the opportunity that we are inviting them in to be a part of something that is meaningful, that is purposeful. There are individuals and foundations for whom money cannot buy them anything more in life, yeah. And what they are really looking for is to participate in something that is meaningful that makes their life and their wealth and their time feel like um it is additive and it gives them a sense of purpose.

[30:27] Patricia McGregor: So I wish in some ways I didn't have to do as much fundraising because then I would spend more time and like community engagement and artists' care, but I don't mind it because I very legitimately and I think maybe it's a little disconcerting or disarming or maybe inspiring at times because I think part of it is in this time where there is so much and there really is. I mean, there's a heavy headwinds that we're fighting against. Yeah, but I think people are also looking for people who are dedicated to the horizon who really can articulate what are some of the things that we want to do and invite people to to be a part of our community in that way.

[31:05] Patricia McGregor: And I think we really do try to be in, it's not just like somebody writing a check and then going away. There are a lot of ways in which we invite people to be in community, and so um, these times call for it in a certain kind of way, and as a director who did not come from a lot to be straight, a lot of artistic directors come from generational wealth. That's just like that's the deal. That's part of how the fundraising happens. I did not, but if you are a director that's a self-producing director, you are fundraising anyhow.

[31:35] Patricia McGregor: Yeah, you are fundraising to get, you are fundraising to help get the space, you are fundraising for I did a short film and I needed $10,000 dollars, and I called some friends and I built some things. There are many more zeros behind the fundraising that I'm doing right now, and it can be a little bit more complicated. But it's actually the same theory, which is there is a thing I really believe in.

[31:54] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. What do we need to make that thing happen? And I'm as passionate about doing it for myself in my own projects as I am for any project or any artist we welcome in. It's a thing that I learned running the Yale Cabaret. Um, because you never know. Some people are wired and they're more interested or more motivated by a thing that's gonna kind of affect their project directly. But if there's a project that I love, I will go very, very hard to try and get the resources needed for that project to meet the world and for tickets to be accessible to people.

[32:27] Patricia McGregor: So we're not just making great art for people who can pay uh extraordinary amounts. I think people who can pay for the art should because um the economics is everything is um subsidized in many ways. So if you have $150 to pay for a ticket, you should pay for $150 for a ticket. But I want to make sure that the people for whom a $20 ticket is the thing that's gonna allow them to um see the show. I want them to be able to see the show, and I'm happy to talk to people about why accessibility is important and to try and get them on board for that vision.

[32:59] Patricia McGregor: And I don't mind asking them for money because money is just one resource. Yeah, but I feel we have a great resource, which is art community purpose, vision. Um, and and it's a trade. I don't see it as a one-way street. I see it as a mutually beneficial trade.

[33:14] Jennifer Apple: I love that framework, especially for folks who in their own lane are fundraising for their own projects, for the shows that they want to do for the projects that they're working on, to think about that as the trade of it all, because I think there is often, and I'll speak on behalf of myself, the like financial part of it, because we're the institutions, frankly, have taught us the scarcity mindset of like starving artistry. Like we're it's ingrained in us from the start, and that so many of us spend so much time trying to unearth and unpack and rewrite that um you know narrative.

[33:46] Jennifer Apple: But um, to recognize that yeah, you are you are giving, you are giving from where you are able to give. If you have a location that you are able to give that location, that is a resource. If you have food, if you have time, if you have creativity in a different a thousand percent that all of us have something to offer, and it's just a matter of reframing that as a form of currency and recognizing that that is equally as important. It's just a different way that we're acknowledging our contribution and not just putting a dollar sign in front of that.

[34:18] Patricia McGregor: One of the first shows I inherited from the season that Jim programmed was Merrily We Roll Along. And one of the things I kind of got to love about that show is one of the lessons I took away from it is being able to recognize the interchangeable and irreplaceable people. And I feel like in a funny way, money is interchangeable. Money is like dots on a screen, and it's real and it motivates a lot of things, but money is also um impersonal.

[34:51] Patricia McGregor: It's impersonal. A thousand dollars is going to have the same operating force no matter where it came from. Whereas human beings, artists, a piece of art, that to me is irreplaceable. And you need the money to make the art. Yeah. But especially for those who have the resources to be able to make the case that they get to engage with this irreplaceable thing that is so unique that is not what they bring to the table in particular.

[35:25] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. I thought it might exhaust me more than it does, but I am not exhausted by it. And even I know some people at some foundations who are dear friends, and they'll say to me, like, okay, we can't do this. And I'll say, Great, you could say no. I understand it. I understand the dynamic. And just like with programming, I I have to say no, you have to say no.

[35:48] Patricia McGregor: Yeah sometimes. I'm still gonna ask for the biggest things. I'm gonna ask for the biggest things and everything, and I'm gonna tell you the why. And if it's not a yes from you, can you give me the number of somebody who might be interested in going down this road? Yeah. And the answer to that could still be no, but I don't mind. I don't find it. Um, even though I didn't come from a lot of financial means, I really feel like what I have to offer is um amazing, and it's not me personally, it's like the artists, the community engagement, all of those kinds of things that we we get to support, and I really say we get to.

[36:23] Patricia McGregor: And so I will fundraise without even realizing it. I will be somewhere down and I'll say, Oh, well, if you're interested in band-aids, you might be interested in helping mutual aid, you know, because I'm also very aware, as much as I'm very optimistic and very kind of driven to the horizon, there are people who have food insecurity, there are people who have physical safety insecurity. Like we are at a time where people's safety and ability to feel not only they can create art, but they can just be okay, yeah, is real.

[36:56] Patricia McGregor: And so some of the fundraising I'm doing is not just for productions, but in my dream world, I would help with housing, with insurance, with food stability, with some of those things that are like baseline needs in order to be able to create the work. So um, yeah, I don't I don't mind that.

[37:16] Jennifer Apple: Have you been using the same monologue for years? Are you gearing up to apply for BA, BFA or MFA programs and need pieces for that process? Or maybe you just have no idea where to even start with monologue hunting. I get it, and that's why I offer monologue sourcing.

[37:31] Jennifer Apple: This is a unique process where I find monologues chosen specifically for you. So many artists pick pieces based on external labels like type or for roles rather than finding material that represents who they truly are. So curious how it works. We'll meet virtually and you'll share all about who you are, your passions, values, beliefs, and everything in between. Don't worry, I will help guide you through this process.

[37:55] Jennifer Apple: Then I'll get to work finding monologues that fit you like a glove with years of experience sourcing pieces for hundreds of artists. I've seen the difference it makes to have a monologue that genuinely feels like you. So if you want to feel empowered about the monologues you bring into rooms and use for auditions, I would love to help you find them.

[38:13] Jennifer Apple: And because you're a listener of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast, I'm offering an exclusive rate. Head to EmpoweredArtistCollective.com/podcastpromo to register and claim the special offer. That's EmpoweredArtistCollective.com/podcastpromo. I cannot wait to help you find monologues you absolutely adore.

[38:33] Patricia McGregor: I am curious then how you are balancing this artistic directorship as well as your own creative directing projects, because it hasn't stopped you. You are continuing, you are doing all in the above and all of it. Um I'm curious about your balance.

[38:49] Patricia McGregor: Um, how you have been able to thus far hopefully continue to thwart a form of burnout or exhaustion, and how and what you give your energy and space to when it comes to continuing on your own creative projects. How do you decide that balance and those pieces and the way you can um float both of them simultaneously?

[39:14] Patricia McGregor: Um I would say, in terms of the simultaneity of both, I used to, when I was just freelancing, I would be in process between four and eight projects a year, usually. And now it's more like one to three projects a year. And that's okay with me. That's actually like that's a it's a pulling way back in the freelance work, but it feels appropriate in order to be able to support all of the other work that I need to do.

[39:41] Patricia McGregor: And luckily, because I feel passionate, you know, I am passionate about making sure that Saturday church or a knock on the roof or whatever range of shows that we're doing. Um it is like they become my yeah, four to eight projects because they are, and some of them I just happen to be directing.

[40:02] Patricia McGregor: Um, in terms of how do we do it without burnout? There are times where I'm exhausted. Like sometimes I come home and I'm just have to be very quiet because I've spurned myself in a certain kind of way. I also think I'm built in a certain way.

[40:16] Patricia McGregor: Like I'm built to maybe if I get exhausted by the end of the day, I can find a way to recharge for the next day. I always say, like, we're only just trying to make it to the end of the day, and then we could recharge. And I also think I don't have to do this forever. I really don't like I often joke after maybe my second, maybe third off-Broadway show. Anyway, we moved to Hawaii. People told me, you just started this directing career. You can't move to Hawaii.

[40:39] Patricia McGregor: I had a kid, and people kept telling me I couldn't do it. And I do not like to be told what to do. It's really like red flag in front of a bull. And so I moved to Hawaii with my young kid, and people are like, you'll never work in New York again. I said, fine. If I don't, I don't. It's not what I'm meant to do.

[40:57] Patricia McGregor: That's just to say I don't mind reinvention, and I don't mind that I can see a vision of myself that doesn't do this. So while I'm here, I'm gonna try to go very hard for what it is that I want to do. And I feel like I have muscles, and as long as I have people with their oars rowing in the right direction, I am probably gonna go pretty hard for a while.

[41:18] Patricia McGregor: Yeah, especially because I'm not I'm not convinced that people should be in these seats for you know decades and decades and decades. I I feel um motivated to do this work in this time for as long as it takes to make the transformations and and you know run my leg of the baton, and that's some of why I run pretty hard.

[41:43] Patricia McGregor: I also feel like being an artist, they have selected an artistic director who is a working artist. I think that there's a lot that that means that I bring to the table. I can be both very sensitive to the needs of artists and the vulnerability of artists, yeah, and also kind of muscular about what it means to try to get a design on budget because I have to do that in a lot of different places.

[42:07] Patricia McGregor: I have a lot of different models that I can work from. I can also be rigorous, or sometimes I'm like friends, I get it, but like opening night is coming. Yeah. And to a point of whether it's better or for worse, again, I'm built in a certain kind of way. My my mom passed recently and she passed, I guess I maybe she passed on Monday. And maybe I took a day off but then I started tech on the next day and I'm kind of built in a way that I would respect if anyone else said I can't come in.

[42:37] Patricia McGregor: We need to postpone I'm also built in a way that I did feel that I could come in. And I was surrounded at that time with a community of people that I felt like was supporting me and we were all um kind of rowing together. So I know I might not run this hard forever. Yeah. But I do think in order to do it the way I hope to do it, I do think that there's a kind of like Olympic level training that you need to bring that energy otherwise otherwise because the the energy is towards getting smaller and diminishing and letting kind of all the things of the world shrink us.

[43:16] Patricia McGregor: And I feel like we need to stay strong in being bold in our programming in being bold in trying to make sure that we support as many artists as we can in accessible ways. So I can bring that to the table. And the last thing I'll say is luckily I inherited a system that I've supported and expanded which is we kind of work in the artistic department like on an academic cycle. So the summers we really go away and we're still working we go to a Delphi for summer residencies. We go up to Dartmouth for summer residencies this year because of some generous funding from Emily Tao, which was just discretionary funding. But I said, I actually want to support more summer residencies because I want to support more artisan development.

So we're going to Martha's Vineyard. And that actually just takes the temperature of everything down. So the whole artistic department gets to settle down. And then we decided after our last show ended to close the entire office for a week. And we're looking for places where we can close the entire office, even if it's day here, a day there. We've also given people extra flex days off in the holidays to say in your own time. So I do think it's important to when you rest, really rest.

[44:27] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. You know, I'm not great at it. Um, but I know, for example, towards the end of August, we're going to Hawaii. And I'm a person, I it's symbolic. I work very well on islands where I'm forced to slow way down. And then I work very well in cities where I have the muscles to go very fast.

[44:48] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. And so I'm kind of like, I have to intentionally get myself physically out of the city. Because I think most of the time when I'm in the city, I'm gonna run kind of fast and hard.

[44:58] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, there's an adaptability to like your environment.

[45:01] Patricia McGregor: Yeah.

[45:02] Patricia McGregor: Yes. Um I'm I'm loving that you're naming you didn't say it explicitly, but this idea of like the seasons of your life, that this current season of your life, you know your capability and your bandwidth to be able to go as hard as you are, knowing that you said like end of day is your as your benchmark. And you know, I think there's often a real fear around um for many artists around putting a little bit of like a bookmark for a hot second and being like, I actually need a break, or actually, this season feels like it's kind of winding down in this kind of way.

[45:35] Patricia McGregor: And the fear around our identities being so linked to what we do or how we do it, and then um the pivot to something new or a shift to something, recognize you can always come back to it. I think there's something around naming that right now in this season of your life, yeah, you're able to do it really hard and as the way that you want to, and then perhaps in however time that is, whenever that is, you recognize that the pivot can come and maybe you go back to Hawaii.

[46:02] Patricia McGregor: Like, you know, it's like recognizing that my agent knows it is not a joke.

[46:08] Patricia McGregor: Yeah, that like the backup plan is becoming a florist in Hawaii.

[46:11] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[46:12] Patricia McGregor: I done I've moved there before. I I feel not attached to um that there's not a version of my life that I can't see that I already have friends, I would enjoy. It's probably fueled by the fact that we moved a lot growing up. I went to 12 schools growing up. I feel I have the capacity. I think it's part of what builds a muscle not to be afraid of the unknown because I was constantly having to reinvent into the unknown.

[46:39] Patricia McGregor: So I can get very grounded in walking into a new environment and saying, we're gonna figure it out.

[46:43] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[46:44] Patricia McGregor: And it's not that it's gonna be easy, but I'm willing to figure it out. And I think that helps me say, okay, this is where we are now. We're gonna do this. And I often do think about big things in decades. Like there was a thing that I wanted to do in my 20s, which was like be the dark and be artsy and do this in my 20s.

[47:02] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. And then start bridge to like late 20s, early 30s. I want to go to grad school and and kind of do my freelance work and be in Beijing and be on the lower east side, you know, do that. So I'm just gonna be a freelance artist, and then towards the end of that, I want to have a family and like actually put some of what I've learned in the last 20 years towards helping nurture other artists and still do my work.

[47:23] Patricia McGregor: And I feel like that's where I am. You know, I'm in that stretch of the 40s. I'm really in that stretch of a decade, and what does that mean for institutional leadership? And we'll see what it means.

[47:32] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. And I also am not afraid that if we need to pivot, I think so many people are afraid of the unknown.

[47:38] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. And I because I have a family, because I have other people, I have to be thoughtful and not just nimble.

[47:46] Jennifer Apple: Right.

[47:46] Patricia McGregor: Um, but I'm also not afraid of the unknown. And I think that frees me in many ways because I'm not looking at an interminable future in a certain kind of way.

[47:57] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. I think of it like the Olympics or something like that, where you know, okay, I'm gonna need to go hard for a while.

[48:03] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. Or even, you know, I played sports a lot. So I think about folks who are trying, you know, basketball folks trying to get to the finals, and you're like, I'm gonna play hard, and hopefully you're gonna be like LeBron or someone who's like gonna play a lot of seasons, but you're gonna take the summers off.

[48:17] Patricia McGregor: Yeah. And then you know that you're not all gonna be in the NBA forever.

[48:21] Patricia McGregor: Right. So while you're there, you're gonna try and, you know, serve your purpose, yeah, and then know there's other realities.

[48:29] Patricia McGregor: I think it's important, or it's at least it's nothing is important for everyone. It's important for me to know that I have an identity outside of this.

[48:37] Patricia McGregor: Yes, even though it has been a part of my life for a long time. Um, I am also I can see visions of myself outside of it, and I think that can just be expansive.

[48:47] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[48:48] Patricia McGregor: Yeah.

[48:49] Patricia McGregor: For anybody who is like, okay, I'm thinking of potentially being an artistic director. What would be your like little starter kit for things to for people to start doing for themselves in their own little spheres of influence that they currently have as they are putting their little foundation building blocks towards this as a potential quote unquote goal? What would be that for you?

[49:11] Patricia McGregor: I would say be really clear about what I call the um your compass and the way in which your compass relates to your Rolodex. So your compass, I would say your your relational compass is who are the people I can learn from? Call to who are the north stars, the people who inspire me, the people I can call for advice, the people who I can say, whoever it is for you.

[49:34] Patricia McGregor: Um I'm stepping into this new territory. I can trust you to talk about what that is. So how how can you have your north stars in line? And then I think the the bulk of our work is what I call the east and west.

[49:48] Patricia McGregor: Like, who are your peers? Who are right now? It's really exciting, and it's taken a long time of development. But like right now, we have Maria Guayanas or Lear, or like all these people who I've come up with for 25 years. The biggest piece of advice I would say is like show up for the people that you care about because we remember that.

[50:09] Patricia McGregor: Like we we've all shown up for each other for almost a quarter of a century. So when we're all stepping into this moment of leadership, we really have each other's backs. We really like, so who who can you who will be your peers? And that can be writers, it can be artistic leaders, but how can you make sure you almost have like a phalanx of people who have your back as you move forward?

[50:30] Patricia McGregor: Jonathan and Sade at National Black Theater, you know, there's all these people who it doesn't feel like you're moving on your own, because that could be really isolating that you're moving in a phalanx of peers who you can have each other's back.

[50:41] Patricia McGregor: And then the south is the how can you make sure that you're always being the north for someone else, giving back? And you can do and this compass, you can do it any pay scale. You can do it when all you have is the ability to do this in parks, and you see, like, who's that group who already does in the park? They're gonna be my north star how can I let people know that what we're gonna get the permits and our peer group is gonna do these things and who doesn't even know how to do a permit you know that kind of thing I I would say always build your compass and then figure out how your compass can become your Rolodex.

[51:15] Patricia McGregor: Because while I don't have a lot of you know I didn't come from a lot of generational wealth myself but I've realized after this 25 years the Rolodex of resources I have some of that is artists that I have relationships with some of that is people who are funders whatever it is I'm very clear on what my Rolodex is and that Rolodex can very effectively help you animate and solve challenges you might have as um as an artistic leader.

[51:43] Patricia McGregor: So right now part of the Rolodex is there are people who we needed some help in human resources or we needed some help in um amplification uh and so there are people who we hired onto our board because but they were from that Rolodex of that 25 years of relationship. So it's really I would say more than anything else is about building relationships.

[52:05] Patricia McGregor: And then the last thing is being really clear about what your vision is and if your vision is worth keeping you up at three in the morning if your vision feels like it's a balance of something that can bring you joy but also feels really purposeful in the service that you have and whatever that is for you create the vision boards create bring people together to help as clarify what that vision is and then have a real honest conversation with yourself about do you feel like you have something to bring to the table because it is it's both exciting but it is also a service job.

[52:38] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[52:38] Patricia McGregor: You know it it it is also you are there to help support a whole lot of other people. And if the why of that support can animate a vision that you feel really clear about and is really unique to you. Um then I think that's what gets you through the more challenging times.

[52:56] Jennifer Apple: I love that so much. You are such an articulate human and the way that you synthesize ideas and thought and also just process is like very clear and digestible.

[53:07] Patricia McGregor: Thank you for that.

[53:09] Jennifer Apple: Um I am so grateful that you were in this space and got to share the way you work and the way you operate and and your philosophy and values and all of that. It's just it's really really again like another little pillar in this series to just showcase the breadth of work that's being done in this industry and the leaders and visionaries who are um helming a lot of that and I'm just so grateful that you are doing so um and I I feel very privileged that I get to be in a city that I get to show up for said work.

[53:40] Patricia McGregor: Um so for anybody who wants to reach out see you know the work that you're doing or get in touch what within your boundaries is the best way for people to do so.

[53:50] Patricia McGregor: I mean I would say in some ways because email is hellscape let's just be honest like I forget who I was hostile. I was on with a foundation they were like well our hostile email boxes. So I wouldn't actually say email just because the um volume of email is so but I would say whether it's you know I'm I'm I'm on social media platforms and I feel like that can be a way because it's usually like there's some kind of content to be in conversation about that's one way.

[54:14] Patricia McGregor: Second, we're really working on at the workshop more of these like workout or show-up programs because I think ultimately being in person with each other is the most valuable thing. That's where we have this energy in. And we have a lot of wraparound programming that we would love for people to be in person for.

[54:31] Patricia McGregor: But some of it is live stream, or some of it, if you're not in the same geographic area, actually finding some of those ways to show up. That's to me, that's my dream is actually finding more places. And to the extent, what is the widest canvas that we can show up with each other?

[54:48] Patricia McGregor: So is there a once-a-year time where we all go to Central Park? And that is just a big open kind of potluck invitation where come as you are, we're going to spend five hours in Central Park. So look for those places of the show-ups because I think showing up in person and it it doesn't even have to do with buying a ticket.

[55:05] Patricia McGregor: Yes, of course. I want everyone to come to Oliver's show. They're my babies. I love I want to be a part. But there's also things attached to our shows that are not that you don't necessarily have to have a ticket to show up for. You can be there for a conversation, you can be there for a drag brunch, you can be there for something else.

[55:19] Patricia McGregor: Because my deepest hope is we are an in-person art form for a reason. And in this time where we are being kind of AI and the digitalization of our human experience is just a huge part of the reality. I'm just trying to find ways to be embodied in-person experiences with people as often as possible.

[55:40] Patricia McGregor: And there is a capacity of days, and there's capacity for all of those things. So I don't want to pretend that like we can easily have coffee all the time because there's so many of those that I can hold.

[55:50] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[55:50] Patricia McGregor: But we are trying to formalize places, potlucks, hypes, conversations where we can be in person. And so we can see each other on our digital, you know, social beautiful platforms. But my real hope is that we can find ways to be in person together to show up with and for each other.

[56:07] Jennifer Apple: Amazing. Thank you so much for being in this space.

[56:10] Patricia McGregor: My pleasure.

[56:11] Jennifer Apple: Thank you for hosting.

[56:12] Patricia McGregor: Thank you for being a wonderful, you know, being in conversation and the work that you do I feel like we're all a part of this ecosystem and even this podcast which is a way of not only uplifting stories and conversations and giving tools but also a really accessible way for people to be in a space together so I hope we were able to show up for somebody who we may not have by the programming that you're doing so thank you for watching.

[56:12] Jennifer Apple: Thank you. That's it for today's episode I hope you walk away with some fresh insights feel inspired and a little more empowered to take the next step on your artistic journey remember whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough every step forward counts you've got this and we're here cheering you on every step of the way if you found today's episode helpful don't forget to hit subscribe so you'll never miss out on the discussions we have each week and if something today really resonated with you please leave us a review it truly is one of the best ways to help other artists find our podcast and join in on the conversations plus we feel the love too when you do and don't keep all this goodness to yourself share this episode with your people or post about it on social media.

[57:15] Jennifer Apple: Be sure to tag @empoweredartistcollective and @jenniferapple_ so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going.

[57:23] Jennifer Apple: As always thank you for being here thank you for listening and thank you for being a part of this incredible community keep creating keep thriving stay empowered I'm Jennifer Apple until next time.