This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Danya Taymor: Hi, my name is Danya Taymor and this is the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:07] Jennifer Appel: Hello! Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Appel, actor, coach, writer, and someone who believes there's another way to build a creative, sustainable life in the arts without losing yourself along the way. And, if you're loving these conversations, make sure to subscribe, rate, review, and share the podcast with an artist in your life. It really does help us keep growing this community.

[0:29] Jennifer Appel: You can't direct magic into existence, so how do you create the conditions for it to happen? That's what we're getting into today with Tony Award-winning director Danya Taymor, who, after The Outsiders and John Proctor is the Villain, is now getting ready to direct Spring Awakening off-Broadway. We talk about what she looks for from actors in the room, making space for artistic alchemy, creating opportunities for the next generation of directors, and building the audacity to say, you need to see my version of this piece of art. So, wherever you are in your own creative process, I hope this conversation gives you a little more permission to trust what you uniquely bring to the work. Enjoy!

[1:07] Jennifer Appel: Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. I am your host, Jennifer Appel, actor, writer, coach, monologue whisperer, dog mom, and creator of the Empowered Artist Framework. But, who I really am is someone who believes that there is another way to build a creative, sustainable life in the arts that doesn't involve losing yourself. This podcast unmasks the reality of life as an artist through conversations with women and non-binary changemakers in the industry. We get crystal clear on how you want to show up and not how you think you need to show up in this wild industry. Whether you're headed to your first ever audition, auditioning for BFA or MFA programs, sitting in a Broadway dressing room feeling like you haven't made it, or been at this for a long time and something isn't working, I see you. This episode is powered by WelcomeToTimeSquare.com, the billboard where you can be a star for the day. Let's get to it!

[2:05] Jennifer Appel: Danya Taymor, welcome to the space. Thank you for having me. I'm so grateful that you're here. For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:10] Danya Taymor: Who am I today? I am a director. I have a show on Broadway called The Outsiders. It's also on a national tour. I direct a lot of new plays. I love working with living playwrights. I love creating ensembles. I'm just curious about the theatrical landscape right now, how directors who are just starting out can get a foothold, so that's kind of what I'm thinking about right now.

[2:39] Jennifer Appel: I love it. I love it. I am such a fan of your work. Thank you. I feel like you, as a human being who I'm just meeting now, hold so much poise and centering. For me, I'm so fascinated about that from a working perspective, from how it drew you to directing specifically. Let's talk for a sec about how you got to this as a career path.

[3:04] Danya Taymor: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I guess it starts when my mom took me to audition for the children's theater in my town when I was six. I remember she was like, don't write that you have any conflicts because then you'll be more likely to get in, and she was probably right. But I fell in love with doing theater. Even though I was a kid and doing it with other kids, I remember already feeling the intergenerational aspect, like being six and there were 12-year-olds and just that feeling really special to be in this strange group of people. I think I loved it immediately. My brother and I would, like many kids, perform little skits and shows in our backyard. I do feel like everyone has done theater in some way because of that.

Then I got away from it. I started doing sports and focusing on other things. Then I had an amazing high school theater teacher named Kristen Lowe. She got me back into it. She really encouraged us all to do everything, write, direct, stage manage, do the sets, the lights. She really instilled this ethos that everything matters and that it is a community activity. I think she just really empowered us to be creators. That was the first time I directed. I realized how much more comfortable and in myself I felt when I was directing than when I was acting. I also was an assistant director to her on a few plays that she did in high school. I think that's when I really thought, oh, maybe I am going to do this for life.

[4:37] Jennifer Appel: And then you did.

[4:37] Danya Taymor: Yeah, and then I did in a really big way. I still think when I went to college, I didn't know. I went to Duke, which is not necessarily known as a theater school, although for me it was an amazing place because there wasn't that much competition. And so it was a very big fish, small pond. Yeah, and also I didn't really know what I was doing at all. I remember the first time I went to tech, I was like, do I have to go to this? I didn't understand what it was, but it was a great place and I was making theater for non-theater people with people who didn't do theater. And I think that made me a good director. When I look back on it, it made me a good director for different kinds of actors because everybody I was working with in college came from a different place and a different relationship to theater.

And I grew up knowing my aunt Julie, who I think is one of the most amazing directors, but I didn't become close to her until I was more of a young adult. But that must have been in my psyche as like, this is a possible thing. There's this person who I see who's doing this incredible thing. And I think as I got to know her in my early 20s and I assisted her, I learned so much from her as well. But yeah, I feel like those, I came to directing not from the inside, but outside, which when I look back, I think was really helpful.

[6:06] Jennifer Appel: Yeah. I'm always so fascinated by people's origin stories. And certainly in this space, having had many, many, many conversations over the seasons and dispelling this notion that there's only the one way to do it and naming how many people find themselves in the path that all share a similar title. And yet their journey to that title or the way that they do the title is completely different and specific to them and their own lived experience. And I think it's so important to name that because we aren't lawyers who go to law school and become a lawyer, a doctor who goes to med school and becomes a doctor. And it really is this thing that depending on how you've grown up and who you've known and your exposure to X, Y, and Z doesn't form your art and your craft.

And for you now, when you look back on your, I'd say like more formative professional experiences, do you feel like there is a similar thread with how you were directing then to how you direct now? It's just gotten tighter? Or is it like, no, we've evolved and we've learned and now it's like a completely different skill set because I've hindsight's 20-20?

[7:12] Danya Taymor: What a great question. Well, one thing before I forget it, I remember a director I was really looking up to as I was coming up is Lila Neugebauer. And I remember reading this interview she did in the Times and she said, there's no directing blueprint or there's no blueprint on how to become a director, something like that. And hearing her say that at the time when I was in my 20s was such a relief because I didn't go to grad school. I didn't know, should I go to grad school? Should I go on these more formed pathways to doing it? And I think hearing someone who I looked up to like Lila say that kind of relaxed me when I was in a moment of intense uncertainty about it. But I think that my directing practice has been an accumulation.

So, I think I am still the same as I was when I started. I think I've just accumulated more knowledge and more experiences and have failed more and tried things. But I think about one of the first plays I was doing, My Daughter Keeps Her Hammer at the Flea, Brian Watkins' play, with these two amazing actresses and thinking like, I got to get them in their bodies. How am I going to do that? And working with Jim Simpson, who continues to be a mentor of mine to this day, just thinking about what I could do in a warm-up to get them to feel like sisters, to get these New York actresses to feel like they were living on this Colorado ranch. And so, I think that's when this physical practice began and has grown since then as I've had other opportunities and learned more from other directors or from assisting in what else to put in the brew.

[9:02] Jennifer Appel: Yeah. When you think about your practice, do you – actually, let's dial back. When you are looking at a particular project that either comes into your lap or you've decided, I want to do this, do you have a specific way of tackling it because of this learned toolbox? Or is every project completely different and then you know what that is and you pull the tools accordingly to even begin access into a piece?

[9:24] Danya Taymor: I think I do. I come to each project with similar practices, but then when you're – I think directing is a lot about being very, very prepared so that then you can adapt in the moment and you can listen to the play and completely change what you're doing for the needs of the play or the needs of the particular group of people. So, I'll always do a ton of image research. I will always make a warm-up playlist. I will always start with a warm-up that's super physical and do different activities or exercises in the warm-up and what those are may be slightly different or I might find new ones or the group will expose different ones. But that's kind of – I think I come to the room with similar tools, but also try to be open to the energy of the people I'm working with and receive what they're going to bring.

[10:13] Jennifer Appel: I love that. When you walk into a space and there's a bunch of different individuals in a room that like together create a specific energy, is there a particular one that you're like, oh, this is where I know I can be most – I don't know if it's like effective or most myself in that like, oh, these people feel energetically really open or these people feel really energetically ready or these people feel – you know, like if there's like a specific one that activates your initial spark for you to work?

[10:40] Danya Taymor: I don't think so. I think I like lots of different kinds of energies and I think the audition is a really important juncture for me because I spend a lot of time in auditions. I feel like when you are running auditions, hopefully it feels like a mutually selective process and so by the time I've cast somebody, hopefully I know them a little bit and they know me a little bit. So when we enter the room, we've already established like the beginning of trust or the beginning of our relationship and then I'm always just thinking about alchemy, the alchemy of the group and what kinds of people I'm going to bring together in hopes to create something really special and that has that thing that I can't teach or give or direct.

[11:25] Jennifer Appel: Yeah, I love that. No, it just shows like adaptability and also, you know, there's no like right or wrong answer to this. I'm just curious about – Yeah, I mean like outsiders was such a different energy than John Proctor as the villain. Like outsiders, so masculine, so many young men in that company. So like that was required a different kind of leadership I think than John Proctor as the villain which was mostly young women but I enjoyed creating both those companies so much. You know, they were so different.

[12:00] Jennifer Appel: Yeah, I'm going to put a pause on both of those because we'll clearly get to them. I want to go back a little bit to your process. Are there certain things like I guess I'm asking really like what is your toolbox or like what is in your toolbox for people who are fellow directors, want to be directors if they are curious about what you might do?

[12:15] Danya Taymor: Yeah, I think something that any actor who's worked with me would say is that I do mirroring which many people have heard of like basically you get a partner and I like to have them picked randomly so people don't feel like I'm manipulating who they're with and also so that people can be paired with folks that they might not have their biggest scenes with and so you can build ensemble with people the whole company and so in mirroring one person leads and the other follows and then you switch halfway through. You have to keep eye contact but plenty of people break that rule and I feel like it really engenders connection and playfulness and I'll give different prompts like best sleepover of all time or think yeah or like think about your character or saying goodbye and it's amazing how because I do it every day how deep they can get and how emotional how silly and funny so I think everybody who's worked with me would say I definitely do that you can also do them in more than two people once you start to do stuff like that you can create like many variations on the theme and I think it just creates this like it also helps people get attuned to their bodies because if you're doing it in a room like let's say the cast is 25 you have to be careful about not running into people or being aware of other groups sometimes the groups merge so that's something I do I also do this thing I learned from another director at the Lincoln Center Director's Lab called memory play that's a Tadoshi Kantor exercise where you give a prompt people say memories I'm always careful to say if you don't want to say memory you don't have to because you don't know what people have gone through and then you pick a memory or two memories and you divide the group in two and they have to make little plays of the memories but with no words yeah and they are amazing the first time you do it everybody's like what and then they're incredible and so I think I'm mostly trying to create like a really playful space or childlike space where the actors can get in touch with their instinct and impulse and be dumb and silly and make things together without me so those are some of the things I do in the warm-up or in the yeah in the warm-up.

[14:37] Jennifer Apple: We're doing book work and we're going to dramaturgy and it's all very valid and important. And the idea of staying in your body, connecting with your body, being able to do that with other people in a room, especially folks that you're going to be with for hopefully a really long time, to be able to share that vocabulary and understanding in a way that is molecular and not just intellectual is really powerful. So I love that you do that. When you're in actual process with other artists, say it's sound designers, lighting designers, other creatives in the holistic creation of a piece, what is your style of collaboration?

[15:11] Danya Taymor: It's hyper collaborative. I try to get everyone all together as much as I can. It's important to me that everybody be thinking about everything. An experience I think about is creating the set for John Proctor's The Villain and Sarah Lux, our costume designer was there. And thank God because she was like, there are 15 scene changes and a lot of quick changes. And if there's only one door in this set, then I don't think I can do it. And so we put a second door and like we use that door so much. But like if the costume designer hadn't been at the set meeting, we may not have gotten there. And so I like to encourage people to think outside their lane and into the whole. And I really try to just get everybody invested in the whole story.

Jack O'Brien, who's obviously an amazing director, he gave me this incredible advice, which was like, never say no to anyone, never shut down an idea. He was like, firstly, it may be a better idea than yours. And if you have that defensive knee jerk, like no reaction, you may lose a really amazing idea. And he also said like, if you shut people out, then they will cease to be invested in the whole. And they will feel like their contribution doesn't matter. And I think theater is an act of like belief, collective belief. And I really took that advice to heart because you want everyone to care so much. That's what makes for me a play really have that magic feeling.

[16:42] Jennifer Apple: How do you find your collaborators? I imagine sometimes, you know, maybe there's a producer that's like, you have to work with this person. When you get to choose, or in the process of choosing, what is that for you? You're like, I have my people, I pull my people, or I want to bring up new people, or...

[17:00] Danya Taymor: Yeah, always looking for new people, always trying to see as much as I can. I think when I'm really struck by work, I'm like, oh, who did that, and then want to meet with them. And then I think I just like let myself be surprised, like one of my favorite collaborators, Brian McDevitt, lighting designer, was suggested to me by my commercial producer. And I was like, no. And then I met Brian, and he just like spoke all my references to me. And I was like, oh, this man is my soulmate. And if I had been close to this, I would not have met him and been able to do that kind of work with him. So I think staying open and trying to stay in touch with your gut feeling about stuff. And I think letting yourself work with different people is good.

Yeah. Like finding your people is amazing. But sometimes I think space can also be good. And then you can return back to people. So yeah, but the design process is amazing. And I think the deeper you build trust and openness with different designers, the more they can give and the more they can generate beautiful things.

[18:06] Jennifer Apple: I also would imagine for you to be able to change up the environment for yourself allows you to also probably tap into different parts of your own creativity that perhaps if you stayed with the same people over and over again, you'd have a beautiful dialogue and understanding and maybe like mind reading. But it also is like, okay, how can we continue to push each other outside of little boxes that allow for like flourishing?

[18:25] Danya Taymor: Yes. Yeah. What about for you with art with assistant directing, and folks that either you have as assistant directors for you or yourself as a within your own journey in artists in assistant directing?

[18:31] Danya Taymor: I mean, that I started as an assistant, I learned so much from it. I have two amazing associates on Outsiders, Miranda Cornell, her work is so beautiful. And seeing somebody who I've known since she was 24, I think, flourish in this major way off Broadway makes me so happy. And then Autumn Angeletti is the other one. She where I worked with her on Jonah, John Proctor, and then I got her on Outsiders, too. But she just went to Helen Hayes, like she's going to direct John Proctor at the Alliance. So I think like, I'm really invested in associate directing or assistant directing. I feel like the word assistant is useless for anyone. Exactly. I'm just like, let's just say it's an associate, it means more, it costs me nothing.

I think like uplifting people when we can is so important. But as I look at the landscape, and I'm like, where is the Lincoln Center's Director's Lab? Where is Sundance Theatre Lab? Where are these incubators? I don't see them as much. And it's hard to make a living. So, you know, opportunities, good opportunities for associates where you can really empower them and give them voice in the room. Those were so important for me when I was starting. And I, you know, I feel like incredible sense of pride for Autumn and Miranda that they're like, out there in the world flourishing. So I think it can be a really amazing pathway. And then it's just tricky because at a certain point, you have to bet on yourself and stop doing it.

[20:06] Jennifer Apple: For folks who are thinking about, you know, entering into the directing path of it all, how do you suggest that they go about securing an assistant and associate directorship position?

[20:19] Danya Taymor: It depends like where they're coming at it from. Like if they are an actor who wants to direct, they may have access to directors or they may have access to those people in a way because they've been actors in those spaces. I came up at the Flea and so there were lots of opportunities to assist there for like no money, but you were getting like incredible practice. I think if you're coming at it from like a technical perspective, like coming in through stage management is also a valid way I think of being in the room and learning. I think like one of my most important collaborators on any piece is the stage managers, the PSM. I think that they are artists in their own right and that's like the most undersung, underappreciated creative force in the theater is the stage manager.

So it depends. I think there's lots of different ways in and it is like keep asking and don't stop asking until you get a yes. I remember wanting to assist this director and they were like, no, but maybe this director needs somebody. That director's like, no, but this one does. And so again, like there's no way, I mean, there's like the SDC observership, which is a formal thing you can apply to and I think can be very effective. Yeah. And then just like trying to activate your network as best you can. But like places like Ensemble Studio Theater, I still feel like are cultivating a place where you can begin. But I am looking around and I am thinking like, where are these opportunities that were there when I first started? I do see a big dearth of opportunity for the director who has not yet made any work.

[22:02] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. It's this weird catch-22 of like you can't get the thing until you get the thing, but you can't get the thing until you get the thing and then you're in that spiral. I remember having that as an actor for a really long time too. And just in some ways that's like what led me to grad school was like, no, I'm getting these particular opportunities, but I keep saying I really want these opportunities, but because I haven't had that opportunity, I need to show you that I can do that opportunity. It can make you wild. But I love the idea of like, keep asking until you get the yes. It is a muscle. Somebody once said to me early on actually in one of the episodes that we had in the podcast around boundaries and around that.

And again, depending on the context, this works and doesn't work, but that a no was actually a yes in that when somebody tells you no, you like actually are able to close that door and not have your mind think, well, what if, or I haven't heard from them or do they hate me or did I anything that we allow ourselves to spiral around? Whereas somebody is like, no, I can't. But actually this person can or not right now. Thank you so much or whatever gives some sort of clarity. And, you know, the amount of grace that I think we have to offer people in this industry and also in the world that we live of like, okay, if they say no, that isn't personal. There will be somebody else who will say yes and that energetically will be a better marriage and you will grow and they will grow and everybody will be able to collaborate in a more effective way.

[23:27] Danya Taymor: With that, I am curious to know how you pick your projects. Are you at the point now that people, I would imagine you're at the point now that people are pitching you and also for yourself, is there a like, I really want to do this thing and now I have to pitch it to producers or a theater in order to make that happen?

[23:41] Danya Taymor: Yeah, I'm getting some things. I mean, for me, it always starts with the writing. I am such a language driven director. So I'm always searching for an amazing new play. I think that is the thing I love doing more than anything.

[24:02] Jennifer Apple: Where are you finding your plays? Or are you going to see playwrights work that you've never heard of?

[24:08] Danya Taymor: Yeah, I have a, if you invite me to your play and I can go, I'm going to your play, wherever it is. I would love to be reading more new plays by people I don't know. I get sent some plays, like Kimberly Bellflower has a new play, so I'm gonna work on her new play. But I'm always trying to get them but a great new play is hard to find. So if you have one, send it to me. And then yeah, I'm open to what people send me. I got sent some musicals after Outsiders and I would love to do another musical but I would have to really believe in it with my whole heart like I did Outsiders because it requires so much of you to get one to the finish line. And then I am interested in classics. I'm working on like that muscle of audacity that some directors have where they're like, you need to see my version.

I know you just saw this play five years ago or last year or whenever, but you need my version. I love it. So I mean, it's Romeo and Juliet, I just saw a version in London, but it's the play I've been wanting to do since I was 21. But it will always be there, you know?

[25:18] Danya Taymor: Yeah. I would love to do some Arthur Miller. I would love to do some Sam Shepard. I feel like these plays that have rarely been interpreted by women, it would be really interesting whether it's me or someone else to see them through a different gaze. But yeah, I am dying to do Shakespeare. I'm dying to do Chekhov or Gorky, some of these like big, huge plays where the language is amazing. But I do think in my heart like, what I want to do more than anything, a great new play. Obsessed.

[25:49] Jennifer Apple: So let's talk about Outsiders. Let's talk about John Proctor as the villain. These are two vastly different pieces in terms of, I mean, just production generally. One's a musical, one's a play, that alone changes the entire ecosystem. And we could go into like how these fell into your lap if that is exciting for you to talk about. And I don't want to use it as like a comparison, but in terms of like being in these two huge phenomenas back to back, earning you a Tony and a nomination. I mean, like you really like had a moment with really incredible pieces that I would say also having seen them really just like showcase youth in a really beautiful, poignant, non-reductive way. Like full of heart and sensitivity and vulnerability. So I'm curious to talk about both as individual pieces or as like a collective back to back, however you want to frame it.

[26:46] Danya Taymor: Sure. I think what's cool about them both is that they came to me before I had ever, well, I guess Outsiders came after I had worked on Broadway with Passover, but I first got the script of John Proctor as the villain in 2019 and was talking to Kimberly about doing it at the studio. And the scheduling didn't work out and then it was COVID. And so when everything came back, I couldn't do it. And then Outsiders came to me through Adam Rapp, who I'd met when I was 22 at the Flea Theater. And I think it is a testament to the don't stop asking because I had this feeling with Adam. I invited him to see Passover, but I wrote him like two or three or maybe even four times before I finally got him there.

And he came on the closing weekend. And that play is also about young men and violence. And he was like, would you ever do a musical? But if he hadn't seen that, I definitely would not have been up for the Outsiders. I was not on the producer's radar. I had not done a musical. And so I do think A, it goes back to my earliest relationships that I made when I was first starting out. And also, it was like, yeah, just don't be ashamed to be down the door and get people to your play. This was a Broadway play and I was still emailing out being like, please come see our work. Please come see the play. It would mean so much to me. That's why I think when I get those kinds of letters or emails, I'm like, I will come because I know how much it matters and how it can change the trajectory of your life.

And then John Proctor, I got an email when I just finished the Out of Town of Outsiders, saying that Sadie Sink had the play and that there were commercial producers and that they wanted to see if I was interested. And so it felt like magic because I thought I'd lost this brilliant play. And it came back and we did a workshop of it. And then the writer strike happened so it took a little bit longer to go. It's just like you never know how it's going to, if it's ever going to happen. But they were both incredible experiences that I'm still directing now, which is such a fascinating experience with both of them. Outsiders has a tour, which I directed and I just I'm working with a new cast right now.

And it is such an amazing privilege as a director to see, to keep seeing these plays. I did John Proctor in London with a different cast. It was such a deep, I don't yet have words to articulate what it is to work.

[29:14] Danya Taymor: One text so much, but I'm thinking about it because it's strange and it's cool and there's so many memories I have that live in the piece, especially *Outsiders*. This fall it'll be like five years since I started. Are you finding that as you were with these texts for so long that you are craving adapting them more to where the world is, where you are as the piece continues to evolve? Or is it the kind of thing that you're like, no, I know that this was what it was and I want it to continue to be the thing that I created originally? I think that it doesn't feel like something I created on my own. It feels like something that was created with this incredible alchemy. With *Outsiders* right now, it's in its third year and there's this amazing company who started while I was away and they're excellent.

My associates did excellent work, but I am thinking, okay, there's untapped magic in it right now. I'm like, okay, how do I get that out? It's not going to be the same magic as the first company, but there is more to find. I don't know if it's the same, but I know it's something that the play can hold and there's farther for them to go and more for them to give. I think that'll create a different magic in the theater. Then with *John Proctor*, the different company in the UK, same impact. I think I'm thinking about what is the impact of the play on the audience? A question I always struggle with is what do you want audiences to take away? I don't know, but I want it to hit them hard. I want that impact to still be as potent as it was originally.

[31:02] Marie-Claire: Please correct me if I'm wrong. *John Proctor* is being turned into a film. How has that been to create something that was a specific kind of medium and transfer it? Does it feel like that is a different creation or are you leaving it up to the people who know the TV and film landscape and trust it and be like, okay, this is still what we give, what we know it is, and now you're a new collaborator into the mix for the medium, but it doesn't necessarily change the alchemy of the piece?

[31:32] Danya Taymor: Well, Kimberly Bellflower's writing the screenplay and she just turned in a draft where I'm like, wow, you wrote a movie and it's amazing. I'll say this for directors and writers, but Kimberly went to bat for me to be the director of this film. It was not a given. Tony Award, whatever. I'm unknown to Hollywood and my playwright was like, this is the person I want. If you want my play to be your film, you will work with Danya. I just want to say that out loud because she did that and she valued our collaboration and I hope we make something extraordinary, but it is rare. I do want to say for other playwrights, you can do that for your director because it is scary out there and it's so hard to cross over.

And I am so grateful to Kimberly for doing that because without her, I don't know if I would be in this position. So it both feels, what she's done, I think she's really adapted to the medium in a way that I'm like, wow, you are brilliant. And I can see this and it is different from the play, but the core is the same. The impact is the same. I think this version, this draft she just made is like, yeah, it creates the feeling you feel when you read the play or you see the play and I think that's amazing even though she's using different tools. So I'm thrilled to see what it's like to adapt it, but I do want to use cinematic tools as opposed to theatrical tools and hopefully it'll feel as intimate and visceral and raw as it does seeing a play, but using the camera.

For you stepping into this new medium in this capacity, I guess in some ways I would imagine maybe it was similar with *Outsiders* having not done a musical. Do you ever have any sort of doubt about your craft, your capability? And if so, how do you ground yourself? What do you do to uplift yourself and give yourself the credit that you know you deserve and also the resources to empower yourself?

[33:33] Danya Taymor: I don't know if this is true for other directors, but every time I go to do another play or anything, I'm like, I don't know if I can. I don't know how to do it. I'm scared. I made a big mistake. What am I doing with my life? Yeah, so I feel that strongly every time and starting is the hardest part. I haven't started prepping for the film yet because we're still in the script, but I think being comfortable saying I don't know or saying I need help or what do you think. I have two really great producers, Mark Platt and Tina Fey, who I think really understand theater and understand film, and so having them is such a huge resource because I think they'll know where I come from and help surround me with collaborators who are curious and excited about working with somebody who's coming from a different space.

But yeah, I don't know yet because I haven't done it, but yeah. Yeah, but the naming of the I don't know can be so empowering. It also allows other folks to show up in the way that they know how, and then I would imagine that continues to create a beautiful collaboration because you're actually supporting one another where you have your strengths. I wouldn't even call it a weakness where you have your unknowns. It's just you don't know what you don't know until you know it.

[34:48] Danya Taymor: Well, let's talk about your Tony win. How did it feel? Has it at all changed the way you are either approached or the way you approach the work? What has the Tony meant or not in the ecosystem of your life? Because congrats.

[35:07] Danya Taymor: Thanks. It felt amazing. Yeah, can't lie. It was incredible. I was so surprised and yeah, it was awesome. That's the only way I can put it. And I think because there were so many incredible new musicals that year, it was so competitive and there was so much talent. I think when I won in the back of my head, I was like, Oh my gosh, my show might win. My show might win. And that feeling was incredible to hope that it would because the show winning was like the most important thing because it is a win for everyone. And I so believed in what we were all making and how we were making it. And I was always telling our producers like the more artistic we make this, the more commercial it would be. So it was an incredible night for everyone.

And I feel like we all felt like we collectively earned it. How has it changed things? I mean, I think I get things at a level that I wasn't before. Certainly. It's hard to say tangibly. I think that actually having like I think something that maybe changed my feeling or how I feel is that *Outsiders* recouped. I feel like that moment was a change in how I felt myself being perceived because I think it is hard to make something that is commercially successful in this landscape. And to be a woman who's made something that is making money feels really good. Yeah. You know, *John Proctor*, I feel like could have kept running and I wish it was still running. And I really would like that to be true.

And if somebody wants to help us make it true, I feel like it could still be making money. So I think making things that I feel like are artistically pure and commercially successful feels really good. And I feel like *Outsiders* plus *John Proctor*, even though I didn't win for *John Proctor*, our show didn't win. It still did in a way. And so I think that was helpful to be like, you don't need to be the quote winner to make an impact for your life to shift. You know, awards are so strange. They're so strange. And I think what I had to do is like let myself want to win or want the show to win and also understand that like, it's all subjective and you can't control it. But I think trying to diminish the want is like a fool's errand.

Like we're human. You want it. Like it's how the system is set up. There's just no way to not care. I don't think. Yeah. And so I think just like letting myself care and also just trying to hold it lightly. But yeah, I would be lying if I said it wasn't awesome to win. Yeah. Because it does feel like your community is uplifting you and saying like, we see you. But it also doesn't mean that they don't see if you don't. So it's all so complicated. But yeah, I think having both of these shows that touched people maybe had as much of an impact as winning a Tony. Yeah. You know, who knows? Yeah. It's such an interesting thing. I have so many feelings about awards generally, because it's like whoever doesn't get named somehow in like the optics of it.

It's somehow saying that we don't see you or your work because we only have five or six spots that we can give people, which is so not the truth as you're naming. It's completely subjective. It's art and there's no right or wrong. It's like there's just whoever happened to be like, yeah, the alchemy of the people who were witnessing the season and what they deemed to be like. It's like the worthiness of it. It's like so strange of like worthy for the category. And also that there's people in that who are quote unquote losing. But like you you're clearly being validated for the work that you've done. And it's also like these are brilliant human beings who like just because you don't have the actual award, like doesn't take away from you.

It's just like this strange thing that is so weird that people go home like quote unquote losers. But like in what world have you lost your like the top of your field? I don't know. I have so many feelings about it.

[39:19] Danya Taymor: Totally. I think in like the night of the Tonys, like the Tonys themselves *Outsiders* Night was amazing. But like the party and like the celebration in some ways, like *John Proctor*, I had more fun because I was just like your people and we all lost together. Like we didn't get a single one. And yeah, so like there was also like incredible joy in that. Yeah, it's such a strange thing.

[39:42] Marie-Claire: Have you felt as a woman in this industry that you have been treated differently, that it does feel like there's a larger hill to climb? And then in conjunction with that, how have you felt being in a sea of more female directors who are slowly rising up in this capacity and maybe the support system that you all have in that?

[40:02] Danya Taymor: Yeah, I think that definitely I've had interactions that I think are different because I'm a woman when I'm working with like male producers or men in general, but it hasn't stopped me. So yeah, you know, obviously it's okay. But I do feel like there's still I think that's why it's so important to talk about like for me to talk about like the commercial viability because I'm like that does matter and that should be taken seriously. I definitely have this like huge network of female directors and we're always talking to each other and always giving advice and venting to each other. I talk to Whitney White all the time, Annie Kaufman, my two associates, you know, lots and lots of women. We're always, yeah, in communication and trying to uplift each other.

And this year felt a little scary in the awards, to be honest. Like I did feel for the last few years, like there's been a real upswing of female directors being uplifted and being noticed and named for their contributions. And this year was a little bit scary. And I hope it's not indicative of like a backlash, but you know, the country is where it's at. And I feel like that does have an effect on the landscape for us. But I do think women are making amazing work. And I hope we can continue to get big opportunities, big and small opportunities to make that work. But it feels amazing to be one of many.

[41:33] Danya Taymor: Yeah, it's, you know, I think in some ways, many of us view like it's like Broadway or nothing. And that like, if we don't have that kind of platform, then where are we creating art? And it's like, actually, like in the regional spaces and the off Broadway spaces, like, you know, to really have tabs on who's doing the work where. And it seems in many respects, like a lot of that meaty work is being done in those spaces. And it's a matter of like, how can we bring those to a commercial space and change it? And that's hard, because it is a business when push comes to shove.

[42:10] Danya Taymor: I know. But I want to like, also say like, are women not making things as commercially viable as men? And like, who do we decide is a good business decision when so many shows lose money? So I wonder, like, if we actually look at the stats, is it safer bet to have a male director? I don't know. I'm sure it's pretty similar.

[42:39] Marie-Claire: I think you're living proof of that. This show continues to run and make money. So yeah, I think that that's pretty, a pretty clear thing. But also, yeah, I don't have the stats in front of me. But I think it's a really wonderful question for anybody who wants to do that research.

[42:51] Danya Taymor: I am also curious for you in this next season of, you know, your creativity, and you mentioned really valuing new work and finding living playwrights to be able to do their work. So right now in your career, what are you most excited about? What are you eager about in terms of the projects or the hypothetical things that might be coming down the pipeline? Besides just like the *Romeo and Juliet* and the other beautiful things that you put into the space?

[43:28] Danya Taymor: Will Arbery has a new play that we're trying to figure out when to do. I'm also really trying to do a revival of *Heroes of the Fourth Turning*, which continues to be, yeah, like a text that lives so loud in me. I really believe in Rachel Bonds. She has an amazing play that is so challenging and funny. And I think people are afraid to do it right now, but they should do it.

[43:52] Danya Taymor: Obviously her new play is really... I wept and wept when I read it. It's so gorgeous. It's so different than John Proctor. She's brilliant. But I am excited about the voices that I don't know yet and trying to see theater that is being done on a smaller scale. And I think I am also really thinking about how to make spaces for directors who are just starting out. So much of what I do and how I do it came from those opportunities that I had to be with other directors. And I don't see that many of those opportunities. And so I do want to put my effort towards that, towards creating those spaces or helping big non-profits that have the resources create those spaces and infrastructure to get more people from different backgrounds, from different points of view into the conversation and making work.

Because I will say I've seen a bunch of things since I've been back. I was in England doing John Proctor. And since I've been back, I feel like I've seen so much amazing stuff. And it's all been off-Broadway for the most part. It's really been affecting me. And so I feel like there is great work being made. But I am wondering, how do you get in? How do you start? Are those things that you're still figuring out and sussing out? Or is it a matter of you feel like you kind of do know, and it's now a matter of who has the resources to make it happen?

[45:15] Kimberly Bellflower: I think some I know. The fellowship the Roundabout has that Autumn Angeletti had, and Whitney White was the first person who had it. We've clearly seen that directors who have that fellowship, it works. They go on. Whitney's been nominated for two Tonys. It works. And so my question to Lincoln Center and the public is, where's your fellowship like that? Isn't it low cost, high reward for directors? Then you get to basically create the next great director. So that's one where I am like, what are we doing? Roundabout already did it. They have the blueprint. Let's just do that for directors. And then I think the other things are, like Lincoln Center Directors Lab, it requires leadership. It requires people who are willing to give.

And Catania, who used to run that. I think about Jim Simpson, who ran The Flea. These were people who, I don't think it's an understatement to say they were dedicating their lives to this. And so it does require a selflessness and a leadership that I think we have to cultivate or find those people who are willing to do it so that these opportunities can thrive, because they are so important.

[46:56] Danya Taymor: Yeah. I love that you're naming it. I love that we are in some ways pleasantly calling out institutions that have the ability to create change in this way. We're calling in, calling in these institutions. I do feel like artistic directorship or running one of these theaters is one of the ways you can change the theatrical landscape. And I'm sure that they have ways in which they're doing this. This is like only additive. It's not like, oh, you're not doing anything. It's like, in addition to what you're doing, what about this thing for directors? Because I think it can make a big difference if instead of one director who's being supported the way the Roundabout Fellowship supports, there were five every year.

And those people didn't have to worry about money or health care or paying for grad school. And also support one another, like creating a beautiful little cohort of humans who are coming up together with a similar ethos to create work for the next generation. I think it's beautiful.

[48:01] Kimberly Bellflower: So I love that. I'm curious for actors, when you meet an actor, what for you is something that, it's like a dumb question, but I feel it's important to ask it in that it's pretty similar whenever you do because everybody's just like, it's the human being. And I imagine you're going to say the same, but like what for you shines when you meet an actor, whether that's in an audition space or whether they are coming back for callbacks. And in that same vein, do you have, what is your wildest, both quote unquote positive or negative audition experiences that you have had with folks in the space?

[48:30] Danya Taymor: I think that I'm interested in uniqueness or I would call, I mean this in the best way possible, freaks. I want people who are strange and odd and not cookie cutter and are their own thing. I'm really interested in that. My worst audition experience was somebody came in for The Outsiders and wanted to use a real knife. That they brought themselves.

[48:39] Kimberly Bellflower: They brought, yeah.

[48:43] Danya Taymor: I thought, no, that's okay.

[48:44] Kimberly Bellflower: Did they ask or were they starting to-

[48:45] Danya Taymor: They started.

[48:46] Kimberly Bellflower: You had to pause.

[48:46] Danya Taymor: Yes, yeah. Pause. And then, I mean, one of my best experiences was Tyler Wesley auditioned for Dali. And Dallas Winston is a notoriously hard part to cast. It's such an incredible role. And this kid just came in with it. And I actually think about Sadie Soverell who was in John Proctor in London as well. These auditions where I was like, I'm going to ask you to do it again just so I can watch you again. Watch you do it again. And I think that has to do with preparation with trusting yourself and your intuition and your take on something and committing even in an audition space. And I think it has to do with allowing yourself to fall in love with something knowing you may not get it, which I feel like is what I had to do when I was trying to get The Outsiders. And it made me respect actors even more because it's hard to do that, to give yourself to something you don't know is yours yet. But when that happens, it's like, whoa.

[49:48] Danya Taymor: Um, but I've also had experiences with people. I'm like, this isn't working. And then like on The Outsiders, they start singing. And I'm like, okay, wow. Let me spend some more time with this person. And then I'll find like, oh, they were just so nervous. Like, I think with young people, especially like my collaborators will tell you this. Like, I'll take like 20 minutes, because sometimes it just takes that long to get past nerves or to get into what they might be able to do. So I think I'm also looking for potential. As much as I'm looking for people like Tyler said that like, it just kind of came. It just came. Yeah. And that doesn't mean I didn't like work with those people. And they grew so much in the process. But there was. Yeah, I think I'm looking for both potential and then that thing that I would never be able to teach somebody the thing that people just come with. They're like, they're freak. For lack of a better word.

[50:40] Kimberly Bellflower: Yeah. What I'm hearing is the understanding of oneself and being able to own that. Yeah. And then also doing the work with the joy that only you can have for a piece to bring it through you. And with that, then also recognizing that there is a level of play that is possible in an audition space. And to be able to adapt in real time, if say a director is like, Hi, can we play with this and to be able to let that go and hold on so tightly.

[51:15] Danya Taymor: Another great memory that comes to mind is when we were moving from the workshop of The Outsiders to La Jolla. The actor we had playing Ponyboy went to do another show and Brody Grant had been playing Soda Pop. And I thought, Oh, I remember he auditioned for Ponyboy, but we had already cast the role. And at that time, and so I asked him if he would be interested. And he said yes. And he came into the audition. I remember he's saying Great Expectations and Adam Rapp just like stood up out of his chair. And like, if you know Adam, like he is a love, but he's like, can also be stoic. And just to see the reaction that this had on Adam was so beautiful. Yeah. And so it's just sometimes something will happen in the room. I remember that was Sky Lakota Lynch, too. When I first saw him audition for Johnny, I was like, Well, what? Yeah, it gives you like a physical reaction. Yeah. And that's amazing when somebody just is like, this is for me.

[52:06] Kimberly Bellflower: Mm hmm.

[52:13] Danya Taymor: Yeah. I think often, and I know this for myself, and it's been a practice of just like, yeah, you want the thing so badly. And there's that delicate balance of like, well, it's not mine, and I can't have it. And also, I want to bring myself to it. And also, I want to do my best work. And also, I can't put the pressure on because then I'm not able to do my best work and like that, that really strange balance. And then ultimately, like having to let all that go and just like trust yourself and doing it for you. And like, you know, I'm married to Gabriel Ebert, one of the best actors ever. And so like, I live with an actor and like, I have both worked with him, but I also see what it like we make self tapes, like, I think that what the actor has to balance, and like the level of uncertainty that goes along with an actor's life is so remarkable.

And it makes me respect it so much. I feel like, you know, auditions, the least I can do is like pay mutual respect. So like, if somebody is prepared, I'm going to see everything they've done. Because I asked them to do it.

[53:10] Kimberly Bellflower: Yeah.

[53:16] Danya Taymor: I asked them to learn all that. And if they've come with preparation, even if I don't think they are right, maybe they will change my mind, A. And B, I just feel like we have to have that kind of respect for what we're asking people to give. So yeah, I'm sure some of that is, is being married to an actor. But I think some of it is also just like respect, this like innate sense of what it costs the actor to really give at the level that I want them to.

[53:39] Kimberly Bellflower: I really hear respect, but I also hear like care and love for the craft. And I think it's really special and beautiful. And so thank you.

[53:52] Danya Taymor: Yeah, of course. Having been the actor that's prepared, you know, like three songs and two sides, and then you go in and you're asked just to do one side. And you're like, I spent so much time and energy and this actually wasn't my favorite side. And this was the thing that I like really wanted to actually do. And please let me sing this one song. It's cool to know that you're like, I will give you that time and space. And also it is true. Like sometimes we're in a room and you finally breathe and it does take you three minutes. And by the time that song is done, now you're present and then you're either going out the room or what. Yeah, so it is a definite balance. And yeah, thank you for taking the time for folks who come in.

[54:28] Kimberly Bellflower: In as we continue as we wind down, for anybody who is, you know, maybe perhaps transitioning from actor into director or balancing both actor director or is, you know, young and like, I know that this is what I want to do. And naming again, that there are so many ways to do this and not one linear path. What would be some suggestions that you have besides just like asking people and, you know, saying, I would love to learn more from you about folks trying to get more into this industry?

[55:04] Danya Taymor: I think firstly, it's like identifying what you like. So trying to see things, trying to read things and understand what your own taste is and what you might want to make, I think is part of it. And then I think trying to make work, whether that's at like Dixon Place or The Tank or places where there like is access to do things that are one off or two offs, or just trying to get something up and get people to see it and get some reps in and start doing whatever that means, whether it's writing or directing. I think that that is so important because you have to have a chance to like try and fail. I think that's why like I try to make the rehearsal room the way it is so that we can have like lots of failure, failure in the room.

Yeah. Because I want to try everything so we can figure out what the right thing is. And I think that for those starting out, you have to figure out opportunities or ways to try no matter what the scale is, and also learn yourself and your own craft.

[56:05] Kimberly Bellflower: Totally. Yeah. I could talk to you about everything and I'm so much work. I'm so curious about like all these other things. I'm so grateful that you've been in the space and dedicated your time to this and shared so openly and beautifully with our listeners. I feel it's super important to be able to like elevate creatives who are really doing the work and doing so with integrity, and you are. So thank you. For anybody who wants to learn more, who wants to potentially send their beautiful play or potentially work with you or hire you, where within your boundaries is best for people to reach out.

[56:40] Danya Taymor: That's great. I don't have social media because I just can't handle it. Not because I'm too cool, but because it's a lot to me. Yeah, it's so much. It's so intense. My agent, Dye Glazer, who's amazing, is a place to send a play. I also have an about me website that you can write to. Yeah, or just like the old fashioned way of like, leave me your play at the stage door of the Jacobs. It's another way.

[57:10] Kimberly Bellflower: People are like, what do you mean leave a play at a door? Where? How do I know a door and where the door is and people do that?

[57:15] Danya Taymor: Yeah.

[57:20] Kimberly Bellflower: I feel like those are ways to reach me.

[57:20] Danya Taymor: Yeah, because I don't have socials because I can't. No, it's a really healthy way to be in the world that we live. So I kind of envy it, honestly.

[57:27] Kimberly Bellflower: Yeah.

[57:33] Danya Taymor: It's really good. Thank you so much for being here.

[57:39] Jennifer Apple: Thank you for having me. Yeah. I hope this episode empowered you to take one small step forward. Make sure you're subscribed to never miss out. And while you're at it, kindly leave us a review. It's one of the best ways to help other artists find the podcast and join in on the conversations. Be sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going. As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening. And thank you for being a part of this incredible community. Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. Keep creating and keep thriving. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.