This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:02] Jennifer Apple: Hello, welcome back to this week's episode of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. My name is Jennifer Apple, she/her, and this week's episode, again, I'm not allowed to say is my favorite, but is truly one of the most important conversations that we have had thus far on the podcast, and frankly, it is a huge foundation and part of the ethos of the Empowered Artist Collective generally. We have had a version of this conversation from the inception of EAC, and I am so grateful that Teniece Divya Johnson has returned to us to have this conversation for all of you about boundaries.

[0:42] Jennifer Apple: Before you listen to this episode, go read Teniece's bio in our show notes or on our website. Teniece is a stunt performer and certified intimacy coordinator and frankly has been on sets and stages for all of your favorite projects. Teniece is so, so eloquent with the way in which they speak and their thoughtfulness. They have become someone from whom I have learned so, so very much about my own work with boundaries. And I am so grateful that Teniece continues to trust EAC and keeps showing up for this community in this way to have these types of conversations, which are deeply important in the world that we live, but specifically for us artists. We unpack the language used around this topic, the word "no," what it means to take up space, the importance of having a support system, consent.

We share tools about hypothetical situations specifically for artists and helpful phrasing and words that you can use to advocate for yourself and empower yourself. And with any topic that is as loaded as this one, this episode does touch upon systemic racism, white supremacy, and the systems that are in place. This will be a conversation you will absolutely want to listen to over and over and over again, but certainly take some notes. So grab your pen and papers, and I hope you enjoy.

[2:08] Jennifer Apple: Hello, hello, hello. This is such an honor and a privilege that we have Teniece here with us on this podcast. Teniece has been with us pretty much through all of our EAC endeavors, but I'm so grateful that you are here today on this podcast journey.

[2:28] Teniece Divya Johnson: Hello.

[2:30] Jennifer Apple: Hi.

[2:32] Teniece Divya Johnson: I'm, you know, I'm hanging in.

[2:35] Jennifer Apple: That counts.

[2:37] Teniece Divya Johnson: I'm trying my best as well.

[2:38] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Well, I wanted to throw it to you today. How, who, what are you feeling? Who are you today? Any sort of introduction that you want to give to our listeners who are new to who you are.

[2:54] Teniece Divya Johnson: My name's Teniece Divya Johnson. I am a non-binary Black creative. My pronouns are they, them, and theirs. I would describe myself today as a movement storyteller. I'm first and foremost a stunt performer. I also serve as a fight director for stage. I am the first Black intimacy coordinator for TV and film, and I'm the first Black intimacy director to work on Broadway. These aren't all the spaces, these are just some of the spaces. And it's been challenging to lean into saying the first or putting Black before my professions. But as uncomfortable as I may feel, it's really important for people to see themselves in positions. So I'm gonna be uncomfortable, say it so other people know that they have access to these spaces as well.

[3:53] Jennifer Apple: I feel like this is actually the first time I've heard you say it in that way, truly. And I just wanna say that I'm really thankful that you said it to me in that way. And I felt the sense of silly, but I felt the empowerment behind it. And so I feel like I'm sitting here in like a receival of something that feels concrete in what it is, which feels, um, how, how I mean it's just rare for people to really own who they are in the moment and be like, this is what I am and this is how I'm showing up. And so that was really cool for me to hear.

[4:28] Teniece Divya Johnson: Thanks. And, um, you know, gender-based as well, more perceived gender-based in terms of taking up space. And when we're talking about narratives, I've learned in my career doing this intimacy coordinating that no one's gonna say it for me. And I used to think as like a polite artist, like you don't really talk about yourselves, but I also have a responsibility and a right to take up space and name who I am, how I want to identify, so that it can also be understood how to best collaborate with me. And the need for change in our artistic expression and collaborations.

[5:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[5:28] Teniece Divya Johnson: So yes.

[5:29] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, no, completely yes and yes and yes. I mean, it brings me to why we've had you as a part of EAC forever. In some capacity, we've talked about, I'd say boundaries has really been the lens through which we've had conversations with our artists and you. And I feel like that is a version of what you just expressed. So it's consistent with the work that you have been doing and continue to do. I mean, I don't know how you feel about jumping kind of right into talking about boundaries and the word "no" and how much weight it has. For let's just do some definitions, I guess, because then we're then we can talk from the same space. How do you define a "no" today?

[6:24] Teniece Divya Johnson: Well, I guess I want to back up just a little bit.

[6:29] Jennifer Apple: Sure.

[6:29] Teniece Divya Johnson: And talk about the culture we have been brought into as artists, as actors, performers. We're taught that this vessel is to be used for our art without question, and any sort of caveat we have on what our willingness to give is somehow translated into a reflection of our willingness or ability as an artist. And so I think that's where our first definition starts, like what our right is as a performer. And we're often taught this idea of "yes and," which is awesome, and I think it's a great part of our conversational toolbox because sometimes we'll have conversations with people and we get into this binary thinking, which is a reflection of our white supremacy culture. But you say something, and my initial response is "no," and I say something similar, and sort of instead of leaning into "yes and."

So I think there's benefit to using that tool. But when it comes to us as performers, this idea of introducing "no" into the creative process can seem violent and harmful when we're used to giving everything or we're not trying hard enough. So when we start to look at the tools that we have for our intimacy coordinating, specifically integrating consent into a creative process, we have to look at how we deal with things like saying "no" in our regular life, or how we navigate boundaries in our personal life or in our work life. Because the expectation that you meet an intimacy director or an intimacy coordinator and they introduce these terms for you, consent or boundaries, or saying "no" at work, it doesn't mean you can use them five minutes later.

[8:30] Teniece Divya Johnson: Right. It's challenging. So out of that need for more time with the skill set, I started investigating what do boundaries look like in my everyday life. And I guess the working definition of boundaries for me that was scary and off-putting was the idea of looking at them as walls or barriers or if-then statements. If you this, then I'll that. And yes, on the spectrum of defining boundaries, there is a place for that. Where boundaries are hard and concrete. The approach I like is thinking of boundaries as a door. Asking for what I need and giving people the option to use that access into whatever relationship we have. Is that anywhere close to answering what you said?

[9:26] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, yes. No, completely. You don't need to justify with the question. I feel like that's another thing that I know for me as a woman. I've been taught, I say this all the time, and I'm really, I'm so clocking of it in myself. I'm so aware of like, does this make sense? I ask that often in rooms where I know what I've just said made sense, and yet I'm waiting. I know what I said made sense. I'm wondering if it relates to completely, absolutely. I was also just like weirdly abstract about a question, like grasping for words about something that's just really complicated because words are so, they're specific, they're boxy. We've created a language so that we can communicate, and yet we're not the language.

That's what language is, it's not expansive. It is what it is, and so we're creating, we're trying to find words to better express what we feel to better express the way in which we desire for like the world to progress into so there's just sometimes not the stuff for it.

[10:29] Jennifer Apple: So my question was not great because I didn't ask it well. So you frankly gave a better answer to a not beautifully phrased question, which was exactly what I actually wanted an answer towards, but I did not say that. So yes.

[10:44] Teniece Divya Johnson: I caught some vibration though, that tension of rubbing up against something that's unknown and uncomfortable. I think that's a lot of this consent work, it's being able to recognize patterns within one's own behavior and kind of widening the space between an ask and a reaction so that you have time to think about things and consider how you might feel.

[11:28] Teniece Divya Johnson: So when it comes to consent, I really think of time and space as being really pivotal elements in giving someone the opportunity to make a choice, yeah, that's of their own volition.

[11:42] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Well, I would love to hear more about how you got into this work to begin with. What drew you towards being a stunt person and also more specifically an intimacy coordinator, and also just generally the work that you are doing as a multidisciplinary artist.

[12:03] Teniece Divya Johnson: I think I'm really into storytelling, and I played basketball in college. I played all the sports I could up to then, softball, soccer. I like the team aspects of things, and there's a similarity between fight coordinating and intimacy coordinating in the sense that we're telling dangerous stories while mitigating the risk to the performers. So we want to find a safe structure that we're gonna fill in with emotional intelligence and storytelling elements so that we can all go home unscathed.

[12:50] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah. And when I first got introduced to the intimacy coordinating and intimacy directing, I was just blown away how actors and performers were opening up with the notion that they could say "no." And that we as a team could take a breath and then pivot to the next creative choice, and that the responsibility could be on the creative team to come up with something innovative so that we could have a fully embodied performer in this moment, not someone that is fighting against their own gut impulses in an attempt to look like a hard worker or to be respected at their craft, creating a space where we can collaborate and they could say, "Yeah, I prefer not to work in this direction," and even without talking about boundaries, sometimes we still think that it has to cause blood or broken bones in order to be mentioned in a space, whereas that's not the case, it's anything that takes you out of this moment.

[14:03] Teniece Divya Johnson: Um, I like to give the example of like kissing scenes. If I'm engaged in a kissing scene with my partner, one of the first things I'll talk about is I don't want to meet nose to nose and get my nose mushed. Can we like angle our heads? That's something that's gonna take me out of the character and start thinking about Tonice. I might flinch. I don't know. Do some impulse is, but I don't want to play there. So although that doesn't cause me a bruise or injures my person, it's a work boundary. Yeah. It's gonna take me out of character. So redefining how we look at boundaries so that we can see ourselves having more access to them. And they don't have to be formal. There are multiple ways we can go about it.

Um, we could write emails after the facts that express our feelings. We can talk to a friend and maybe get some advisement on how we proceed asking for what we need. We might even use a friend in the environment that can advocate on our behalf. There's no wrong ways. I think that the only, and I'll say maybe the most painful choice is choosing not to say or do anything, because then we're not allowing an opportunity for change to happen in the space.

[15:26] Teniece Divya Johnson: Well, in those moments where perhaps people are newer to speaking up, right? Or are speaking on behalf of these gut feelings that they know to be true. What would be some tools that you might recommend as just even the first statement out of your mouth when you feel like you know in your gut that this thing is not something that makes you feel safe or comfortable, and yet perhaps I guess like I'll give like a hypothetical, right? Let's say somebody has is newer to at least their first professional gig making this up on the fly. It's their first professional gig in a really incredible room with some wonderful collaborators and creators. And there is definitely that level of intimidation, right?

Of, oh wow, I'm in this room with these incredible people. I don't want to mess this up. I want to make a good impression. I want them to hire me again. I want to do all the like things that we come in with, right? And this person is in a scene that requires some form of intimacy, and their scene partner in them haven't had time to be people together. They just jumped on in. They're let's say perhaps isn't even the intimacy coordinator in the room. Let's say it's just this situation, right? Which let's hope we can move towards changing that. But let's say this is the situation and they know in their gut that they have a kissing scene coming up, and they are not, they do not have the strength to speak up when that first moment is about to happen and they are feeling uncomfortable. What can one do? Or what is something that may be helpful?

[17:04] Teniece Divya Johnson: Girl, I feel like there's a lot of steps we skip. Great. Please dial me back. Well, I just think that if there is some sort of physical interaction or kissing involved, that the question should be posed, is there an intimacy director? Or asking how the production plans to handle those moments. That's a right you have as a performer. Gone are the days where the script says, Oh, they do this act. Cool. What are what is the bridge? What are the on-ramps and off-ramps to this process? And that's something you have a right to as a performer, even in the audition process. Because you want to know how they're gonna handle it. If there are weapons, same thing. If there's dance, do you have a choreographer?

Should I be taking my own private classes? Like how are we gonna facilitate us all getting to the end goal? Um, and then I think after that, it uh a hard and fast rule is checking in with your partner on the day of work. Um I'm an advocate of touching and talking about the specific parts of your body that you're willing to use in this exploration, and it can feel elementary, but I think if we're trying to reclaim ownership over our vessels with our creative work, it takes that kind of like okay, step down, let's get slowly back into the conversation. And I also think it makes one aware of how they're using their vessel, naming, touching, and then sharing with your partner so that they are they have the same understanding and you're on the same page as you go to build the choreography for that scene, which again, I think in the same sense, like if we're talking about a kiss scene, you don't necessarily have to have an intimacy director, and somebody needs to give choreography.

You wouldn't have people improv a fight. So I think our comfort level and asking people to figure out intimacy is we're too comfortable with that path. It's inappropriate. And a lot of times the performer becomes disembodied and starts doing things they've seen or their idea of sexy. And that's not the kind of story we want to tell. We want to be specific about what our character's choices are. Yeah. Differentiate our performer from our character. Right. And then we once we figure out our character's um choices, we check in again with our performer. Is that within your boundaries? Yeah. If not, what do we adjust to tell the same type of story?

[20:05] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yes. I love all of that. So in those moments, let's say now this person has done all of those things, they've had those conversations now that they've been empowered to do that from the start, even before they get into the room. Let's say they are in the room, and let's say there still is not an intimacy coordinator. In that moment, if the choreography has been talked about, and something pops up that still makes somebody uncomfortable, so he puts his hand on a different part of your body that you did not say that this was okay for or whatever. What does one do in that moment? And I guess obviously it's individualized and you have to feel it, but it really depends. I guess the most general and like I guess benign answer I can provide is traditionally in spaces, we audition some choreo, we talk about it, and then we put it on its feet, and then it's up for a note section.

When it comes to the note section, that would be a great opportunity to be like, I had a question about this, or I noticed the choreo changed here. If we could stick within my express boundaries, that would be great. Yeah. Um, so finding whatever way that you're comfortable. I'll also say this. When it comes to boundaries and feeling like violated or hurt or harmed in a process, what typically happens is like we survive, like we make it out, and then we go back and we sit with the information, and then maybe through our processing, we'll find the opportunity to express to our we this is our support system, like what has transpired, how maybe you're feeling, and then maybe we're able to talk through possible options and outcomes or ways to approach that or revisit that in a way that's within our comfort zone, doesn't put us at extreme risk or harm, and then we like talk ourselves up, or hopefully, our we'll text us on the day of action or proofread our email, and then you take some action, and then someone will respond and will adjust. But in my experience, communicating a boundary in real time takes practice, yeah, and we can always ask for more time and space.

[22:56] Teniece Divya Johnson: I appreciate that suggestion. I'd like to ask some time to sit with this. So can we let this sit for the rest of the rehearsal and tonight and I'll come back tomorrow and let you know? So you can always ask for that. Or we can even maybe the honest answer. And I stick with honesty because, like, I mean, that's all I can remember, and that's what I can tap into. But there's also this level of like you don't have to share everything. Right. You can even say, I don't know, I haven't thought about that before. Can I have some time to sit with it? And if you ask someone for that amount of space, they're not gonna say, like, no, we need it done right. I mean, and if they do, like, then you have the option of saying yes or no, or even saying, like, you're making me feel like I don't have a lot of space or opportunity here to say no. I'm feeling, you know, yeah, corraled into a yes.

Yeah. I think so often we are taught or told that time is a pressure cooker and that we don't have the ability to ask for that. And I know it's a good thing. It definitely depends on your on your circumstance. And I can say that there are times in both um an on-set process and on stage process to ask for what you need.

[24:18] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah. Like if we were on set um and we were in a private rehearsal, let's say even there you felt on the spot. But afterwards, find your find your advocate, check in with someone, be like, actually, I was thinking about this. I'm gonna need more time, or I'd like to get back to with you on whether or not I'm comfortable with that as an option. While you go get ready for the scene and crew has the set so there are moments we we do have to think um think about our process in the day and just like any other safety plan um having a plan helps yeah but it typically comes from experience or people share their story with you about their trial and error and what they took away from the circumstance I know even for myself like I one time I was on the phone with like a roommate and they had a different form of communication and they were upset and the voice was getting elevated to a point I didn't feel comfortable but I also didn't feel comfortable hanging up but I felt compelled to have this individual agree with me giving me permission before I could get off the phone so that I'm like being nice where that that's not often how it goes you have to have boundaries and way to control yourself because that's all you have control over.

[25:46] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah so in hindsight I reached out to my we and we talked about you know an empowering statement that I could say I'm not comfortable with you talking to me like that I'm getting off the phone now so I'm not asking for permission I'm expressing that this is a boundary that I'm not comfortable with I'm gonna have to step away and the hanging up but I had to write it down on a note card I had to practice it and this is also like in some journey of um working with boundaries and teaching with them. So these are still things that that are practiced.

[26:23] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah. I will say that my work with boundaries for myself really began with my therapist, but also with the work that we had started to do with you. I will say that your phrasing of boundaries as a door was transformative for me in the way in which I thought about the possibility of what they can be. I had been taught for myself that a boundary was firm, unmoving, and stuck as though you took a pole and you dug it deep into a ground and you stuck it there and forever and always, despite any sort of storm that comes through, that pole is stuck deeply rooted in that ground, and that is the boundary.

[27:14] Teniece Divya Johnson: Forgetting that I'm a human being who hopefully will continue growing and learning and improving and expanding and all of those things with the world around me as I need to continue developing to better serve those around me, right? And that idea of a boundary not being so firm and held tight, and actually this idea that I can walk through, and there are different size doors, and there are different the doors can be creaky and sometimes they could be really smooth and they could shut and they can slam, like there is many a type of door, also, right? So I'd love for you to talk to the listener about this as a concept, which I know for me has been so impactful, but I just just the phrasing of it generally and perhaps more of where that has come from and how it's come to be for you.

[28:08] Teniece Divya Johnson: I mean, I guess my experience with boundaries had always been hearing it after the fact as a form of shame and guilt. Like, why didn't you have a boundary? And I'd be like, I like the way that felt because I wasn't being taught how to establish boundaries. You know, if I thought about it even more, I'd think about instances where my feelings got hurt. And then I have like these strong boundaries. But then I'd be in a new environment with a new person using these old, as you described, like spikes in the ground, like seemed too rigid. It didn't, it didn't make any sense to me. But as I started to understand the definition of consent, and I think like one of the most important components of that definition is consent is reversible.

If you don't have the opportunity to change your mind, you can't give consent. Consent is not permission. Consent is a currency of the now. And it gets tricky, right? Because our ego wants to push us to live in the past or the future, the present and mindfulness is a very hard thing to maintain. Which is why like meditation, yoga practices, mindful practiceness. We have to keep coming back to clearing our thoughts. We arc our thoughts. Yeah. Remind ourselves what the now looks like. And so if we start to think of consent as not being a post in the ground, but being like maybe like a cone we can put over here, or we can put over here. Or we can lift up and put on this section. Or we can use the microphone.

You know, but just the different ways we can we can we can take this door and put it different places, and maybe it's more like a Vallego house. Change which way it opens. Is it a double door? Is it slide? We have we have the ability to change our mind. And I think some of the things that get in our way are um not wanting to upset people, yeah.

[30:33] Teniece Divya Johnson: Um and the thing about that that's interesting is like this idea of expectations, and we all play into this, but it's literally impossible for the universe to match that unexpressed expectation in your head, like you're gonna be disappointed. Like you like it's a matching match, you're gonna be being mad, and like what we're taking away from the universe is the opportunity for the universe to surprise us to surpass our imagination, our our our wonderful but small, limited point of view, and when we anticipate how people are going to feel this is tricky, but it's actually manipulative. Well, I thought you'd X, Y, and Z. Well, I took away your consent, I should have just asked you. Right. And then been vulnerable and present to accept whatever your answer is.

Even if it hurts my feelings, I'll be like, wow, I wasn't anticipating that. I'm gonna have to sit with this for some time. I thought you were gonna say something else. I'm gonna have to come back to this. But giving people the opportunity to choose for themselves, which is a boundary. If we think about it, like you call your best friend, you're upset, you're big mad, and you're like, hey, now a good time. I'd really like to vent. And if they say no, then you have to call down your list, or they you text them, you say, Hey, I'd really like to vent about something. They're like, I need 10 minutes. Well, you can't wait 10 minutes, so you start texting in your chat, I mean, in your notes, so you can get your thoughts right, but you're still giving them the space and time they need so they can be ready to receive your message in a way that's going to be beneficial to you.

[32:35] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah, what if they're in the middle of some stuff? You're not gonna get the response that you need, and I and I imagine you're reaching out because you need help, yeah. So these are just different ways I like to think about time and space and boundaries and asking and informed consent, and in some of my text messages, when I ask people for like plans or like if they want to do something, I remind them that they can always say no. That's a welcome response because I want to change the dialogue around no, yeah. I would respect that. You don't even have to explain it. You just say no, thank you. Yep, yeah, word. Well, there's this guilt that I think we're taught to feel if we've turned something down, like an opportunity down or an offering down of, but it's like actually the no is a yes, and if this isn't something that you or one, or I'll speak for myself, like if I am not able to say yes to this, and I need to say no, it's only going to help you, as in the other person who's offered it to find the person who really can and is willing and wants to be there for whatever it is that you've asked, right?

This idea that the no is actually a yes in that moment for all of us is also this other way of thinking that um is such a shift, right? And I think that's maybe what I meant in the way beginning when I could not find my words of like this no being a yes type of thing. But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on perhaps that as a concept.

[34:13] Teniece Divya Johnson: I think we all have different inns on to how we access no. Um, some of the things I might hear when you, as my friend and a creative, tell me no is oh fantastic, Jennifer's booked and blessed. I should reach out ahead of time. I know next time I'm gonna have to loop Jennifer in mad early. We could all be so lucky, I wish. But you know what I'm saying? For sure. And if you fear that, and if you show up and you do the work, and maybe you don't have the emotional capacity, um, maybe they don't have the money, then you start getting into resentments. Yeah. And I think those are much harder to heal than at the front end being like, bro, I wish I could. I would be there in a second, but I'm really frazzled through here, and I want you to have someone that's a hundred percent present.

[35:17] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah, I can't be me right now. Yeah. So yes, I hear you on the no being a yes, so that you can get closer to what you need. And I think there's um, there's a lot of power, especially as freelance artists saying no. Tell me more about that. Well, I think that if we work from a deficit model, then we're like, oh no, it came in, like, oh, I gotta eat it, or I gotta, I gotta be there, I gotta make that happen, or I work with them on this last show and then they're coming around, they're not gonna call me again. Like we get into these weird narratives when it's like actually knowing the value of your time and your energy and your priorities. I think there's great value in saying, like maybe listening to someone's need and being like, that sounds really great, and like a dope project.

I don't think I'm gonna be a good fit. And I could be like a scheduling right now, or I could just say skill set, what whatever I'm willing to share. And that can even be when there's a creative difference. Yeah.

[36:31] Teniece Divya Johnson: Cause what's the point of taking and taking on an artistic project that goes against like your beliefs? Um recently you get asked all sorts of stuff. I got asked about the situation and the creatives were like, we're centering whiteness as a way of addressing racism. And to me, I was like, this looks like a word scramble, but cool if you want to say like carrots are gluten-free, yeah. I mean, you're not sure. I'm not here to police artists. Yeah, I'm gonna hear this and be like, I mean, cool, however, the model I work centering blackness looks different than this, yeah. And I found that's the way to create equity in a room, which also means addressing white guilt, being able to say white and black, different races without cringing, but holding the space.

Um so yeah, and in that circumstance, am I a bad person for no? That could be some of the thinking we get into. The question I want to ask myself is, is this the environment that I want to bring my skill set to? Is this the story I want to dedicate myself to? Because whatever work I'm doing, it does occupy a place in my heart in my head, yeah. Is this something I want to spend time around? And if I'm not honest with myself, I might go into that meeting and start selling some stuff I don't believe in right on how I can make it work when I don't want to. I trust my voice and my opinion. Someone else might be a better fit and understand what you're trying to get into. Yeah, it's possible I'm not it.

[38:38] Teniece Divya Johnson: Yeah. Well, how do you find for yourself the projects that well, what is this the deciding factor for you for the projects at the moment that you are inspired to be a part of? What is your heart, your mind, your spirit, your soul, your human body drawing you towards now in this moment? Um definitely interested in interpretations of stories in ways we haven't seen before. And I'm interested in telling stories by historically marginalized voices. Um that's what excites me. And I'm really get excited when I work with a team and they want to collaborate with my expertise and and my imagination versus hiring as a check and balance. And sometimes you don't always know. Yeah. Someone may like, you know, sell themselves as they really care, but the work is hard.

And they might not like when the process starts, they might like start to get resistant. In those circumstances, like sometimes you're just being of service. You're planting a seed. In other circumstances, the plants a little, you know, in a different spot. So you can engage in a different type of care concern and like collaboration. So um, I'm interested in things where I have to learn more. Um whether it's movement styles I haven't explored or points of view I haven't been exposed to or had the opportunity to um kind of dig into as a storytelling theme, and I really try to trust myself. Um, how is the communication here? Um I feeling valued.

[40:45] Teniece Divya Johnson: I know from my experience as an intimacy coordinator, because we do have access and privilege to more spaces. I definitely do a risk assessment. What does that entail? Um, the level of consent and willingness on their part is their enthusiasm because there have been many, is there representation? Um, because there have been many times where I'm on monitor, and you know, I'm the only Black creative, which energetically is just different, you know. I like to be in spaces where we might be telling a story on Black intimacy, or there's a Black director or a Black DP. So the risk assessment for me is how are they during the interview process? How do they treat me during prep? Are they allowing space and time for my department to get everything I need done?

Are they um accessible for conversation? Are they interested in this matter? And then seeing how things go on the first day, it's always challenging because it's like a new subject matter, yeah, and no one's there for a PhD in consent. Like we're making a movie or we're doing this episode, you know. So I'm understanding of all of that. Um, and I want to be in places that people want me.

[42:21] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, for sure. Just simply listening to the way in which you express yourself yet again. I just I'm so grateful to continuously learn from you. I mean, look, I'm constantly trying to better myself and be a better human and also um a collaborator and partner and I mean an artist. I mean, all of the hats that I want to be. And in order to do that, I need to be uncomfortable. And I also need to continuously surround myself with people who are challenging me in the ways in which I've I think and I've been perhaps programmed to think, right? And I'm so grateful to have the privilege of being challenged by you in the best way to continuously expand the way in which I can think about um all these very loaded, heavy topics that we have tried to attempt to unpeel in no time here.

So I recognize that also, which is that this is just an ongoing conversation, that this is perhaps just the beginning onion layer peel of these large, large words um in systems that are not going to be shifted in just you know 45 minutes that we've we're talking. Um, but I'm so grateful to you for yet again showing up so openly and vulnerably and curiously and um willing to share the ways in which you experience the world and how you can navigate through it. And um yeah, I just want to say thank you first and foremost for that.

[44:03] Teniece Divya Johnson: Um really appreciate that, Jennifer. It's interesting. Um again as a Black artist, um, I get gaslit a lot. Um, people will be like, "Well, why do you talk about race?" And I'm like, "Well, that's interesting, right? There to be a whole social construct with like real life, life and death consequences, and now I'm being gaslit for talking about it." What's going on? So I can even say, as someone that has the opportunities beyond platforms like this, that it's hard to keep stepping into something and conversations that make people uncomfortable and sharing my voice. So as much as I'm sharing these practices, like I'm fully engaged in them, yeah, quite often. Um, I'm often uncomfortable with uh albeit scared in circumstances and finding ways to ground myself to stay embodied in the work and to stay authentic to my voice and my experience and my truth.

[45:21] Jennifer Apple: Yes. I mean, that's so using my privilege and my platform to keep being uncomfortable and keep growing and keep trying to open the door, reach back, pulling people through. So thank you. I really appreciate that you value our time together in our conversations. That means a lot to me. It means the most that you trust me in that way to keep coming back.

[45:46] Teniece Divya Johnson: No, truly. And I because I know it's I do. Because there's some places I'm like, no, I know. I know. And I mean that from the depths of my heart. Like the work that you do is so brave and necessary and trailblazing. I mean, that's literally why we call people like yourself trailblazers. But like, you know, but it is, it's and not just like in the words, but like the work that you do is so vulnerable and brave and necessary. And the emotional impact to show up like that for yourself and for others on a daily basis is cumulative. And I don't take that for granted that you take time out of your life to show up for this community to speak on behalf of that. And I think it's such a testament to how you truly are consistent across all the ways you show up.

And I, and for me, that is it's emblematic of what I aspire to be within my own self and what I want more artists to be for themselves as well, which is you are who you are, who you are, and that is always perhaps adapting and changing and growing, but you are who you are, who you are when you're present with yourself and grounded with yourself on that day. And so it's just a mutual feeling. And I just I know how busy you are and how time is of the essence, and truly um this is now just become a gratitude fest, but really just I'm I'm very grateful for your constant wisdom and and trust in me and an EAC for being willing to have these conversations that are hard and are uncomfortable, and to give your heart and your soul for that. Um is just I don't take that lightly.

[47:31] Teniece Divya Johnson: I really appreciate you. And I see our time is winding up, and I do want to end on another note of just talking about the importance as this field of intimacy professionals continues to grow. I think that allyship looks like stepping down and making room for other people. And our goal is to represent all directors and all actors, and it's an inappropriate ask to put an actor in a vulnerable position and other them through the resources we give them to do their art and engage in their art in an enthusiastic and empowered way. I say all that long sentence to say that like we need Asian intimacy coordinators, we need Black intimacy coordinators, we need intimacy coordinators to represent the spectrum of people that are telling these stories and have access to this art.

And so what that means is that if we have too many white, heteronormative intimacy coordinators, like y'all need to make space, y'all need to make partnerships with people that don't look like you that have different cultural experiences, and we need to get it popping. It's not good enough to say, well, I don't know anyone and take the space because we're harming these actors, yeah, by making them protect themselves, whether it's monitoring anti-Blackness in a space and then having to be vulnerable as well, we're making their job hard. It's our job to make sure that there's representation. So we gotta keep sharing these gifts, stop guruing yourselves, get out there, each one teach one, and you can't have a monopoly on consent or boundaries. Like these are gifts to share. It's like breathing air, like being this together.

[49:36] Jennifer Apple: Yet another quote that I'm going to listen back to this and like write down on a little post-it for myself and put it on my mirror. Um I appreciate you.

[49:45] Teniece Divya Johnson: Oh my god. I appreciate you. How can people respectfully reach out to you if they want to work with you or collaborate with you or have any perhaps follow-up questions within your boundaries? What is the best way for them to kindly and respectfully reach you?

[50:06] Teniece Divya Johnson: So in terms of like time and stuff, uh I'm not the most available person for projects and stuff. If you do have a question, um, you can reach out to me on Instagram. I'm there, my full government, Teniece Divya Johnson. And what helps me is letting me know the work that you've done, where you are in your process, and like I can keep pushing you, but if you have no momentum in your question, you're saying, like, oh, I like what you would do, I want to do it. That's too much of a start from zero to momentum for me to be able to meet you. I'm kind of like out here just kind of doing my best. So if we can catch up and I can do what I can, I will. Um, but there are limits to my abilities. And if I can't do something, I'm I'm gonna keep it real and hit you up and be like, I don't have it. I don't have the bandwidth.

[51:07] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Great. Um and if I don't have the answer, I might be able to suggest someone else or another area to go to. So I'm definitely open to that.

[51:18] Teniece Divya Johnson: Awesome. Um, is there anywhere that people can tune in to watch you do your work more specifically? Do you want to do some plugging of um the creative endeavors that you are a part of that people can support you?

[51:29] Teniece Divya Johnson: Um, you could check out season two of Star Trek Picard. Had a chance to work with that stunt team. Um, really exciting series. And and we've been waiting a long time, so we're excited to share it. And you know, we're in pre-production for a couple things coming up, but hopefully on Instagram, the post. But we've got some real exciting theater projects coming up that we're looking forward to.

[51:57] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I'll keep an eye out. Teniece is being humble at best, truly. So I imagine if you've watched TV in any capacity, you've seen their work. So search on IMDb. Um, Teniece, thank you, thank you, thank you so so so much. I'm so so so grateful for you. And um here's to next time, whenever that may be.

[52:24] Teniece Divya Johnson: Thank you, and thank you for your time and your energy and the community that you're creating and investing in. Um, it's no small feat to bring people together and help maintain um and thrive and thrive. So I'm really proud of you.

[52:44] Jennifer Apple: Thanks for having me back. Thanks for creating this platform. Thanks for all of that you're giving.

[52:49] Teniece Divya Johnson: Thank you. The gratitude that I have towards Teniece for conversations like this, I don't have the words for it. I hope that you found this episode to be helpful. It is here for you always as a resource and a tool whenever and however you need to return to it. I know that tuning in to a podcast episode about boundaries is not the easiest of lifts. So I want you to give yourself a huge pat on the back for showing up today for a conversation like this. It is incredibly important that we begin to destigmatize these conversations and also simply have them more openly so that we can hopefully be the change that we want to see. You are doing that by simply participating in this type of listening and hopefully whatever tools, takeaways you had from today's episode you can bring into your life and then continue spreading.

[53:42] If you like today's episode, please like, follow, rate, and most importantly, review us. This allows us to reach other people who need to be listening into these conversations as well. If you didn't like this episode, just let all that slide. And if you have not yet done so, please find us on Instagram at Empowered Artist Collective, on TikTok at Empowered Artist Collective, and on our website at EmpoweredArtistCollective.com. Thank you for showing up. And I cannot wait to have you back again next week. Until then.