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[0:02] Jennifer Apple: Hello. Welcome to this week's episode of the Empowered Artist Collective podcast. My name is Jennifer Apple, and this week I talk to MiMi Scardulla about the importance of body diversity and fat representation in the arts. MiMi is a beacon of positivity, and her perspective around this topic is so valuable and open-hearted. She approaches all of this with a sense of humility and joy and inclusion. She also shares her journey as a performer and the gumption she has to continue showing up, the community that has supported her, and the outlook she keeps that continues to drive her. We unpack the emotional and physical toll that comes with being a performer in an eight-show week and how it's important to find ways to fill one's life outside of the job, as well as emphasizing the importance of taking care of oneself and trusting one's own body, since that is the gift that deserves to be treated with the utmost care.

Plus, we discussed the psychological and societal challenges faced by fat performers, the importance of body diversity, and the need to erase the stigmas and taboo in order to start talking about all of it more openly. These are the types of conversations that I wish we were having more in this industry. So I am incredibly grateful that MiMi shared her perspective and time to delve a bit more into it with us here. Enjoy.

[1:31] MiMi Scardulla: Hi.

[1:33] Jennifer Apple: It's so great to see you.

[1:36] MiMi Scardulla: To see you too.

[1:37] Jennifer Apple: There's like a beautiful color scheme happening with like your outfit and the background.

[1:46] MiMi Scardulla: I'm here for a gallery wall, as you can see behind me.

[1:49] Jennifer Apple: So noticing loving. For anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[1:54] MiMi Scardulla: Oh my goodness, today I am a big booty Broadway performer in the Neil Diamond Musical, Beautiful Noise. I am a proud aunt to a beautiful little six-year-old boy. I'm a proud sister and child of my amazing family. I am a very proud girlfriend to my amazing partner Skylar. And I am just a little, you know, nugget bopping around the world trying to make it a better place.

[2:28] Jennifer Apple: I mean, that's really why you're here. I feel like your energy is just so and social media is a lie. So let's just like first name that. But at least what is perceived of you and the way in which you exist through these mediums and in your performing, it's just you are this beacon of joy and glitter and vibrancy. And it's just such a wonderful, I don't know, for myself as a maybe more realist. I would never call myself a pessimist, but maybe people think, you know, just like somebody who isn't as sparkly, it's really nice to be near sparkles and not have to create my own.

[3:14] MiMi Scardulla: So I mean, it's so funny. I think in this age of like media and social media, and you know, I was born into we that existed so much around me, like from jump. And so when it comes to Instagram, I really I try really hard not to like put the lie out there. Like I try really hard to be very honest about how I am and what's what I am and you know not try to seem too cool like I'm such a my favorite word is I'm such a little dingus you know what I mean so um it's it is so funny that it can be such a lie but I think um as it becomes more curated I become less curated with it like I'm like I don't this is what I want to post like um you know it's I think that's no but I think that's important becomes more of a thing I feel like myself like kind of jellyfishing away from you know even though sometimes I see influencers and I'm like wow that's that's a really nice house that you can afford maybe I maybe there's something to it but yeah you know and also that is a full-time job we forget that to be an actual influencer the way that it is now rather than even just a couple years ago I'd say pre-pandemic like to be an influencer then was perhaps a little different than now where now it's you are creating and content creating it is it is insane and it is an incredible talent.

[4:47] MiMi Scardulla: Like yeah just compared to like me trying to make a real and my girlfriend trying to make a real like it is and she does not she's not even like she is like barely on Instagram but the patience she has for creating that is like night and day to me where I'm like oh what's the filter everything? Yeah and then I just want to throw my phone across the room truly you know so truly it is an incredible skill and it's its own version of storytelling. You know what I mean? Like we follow these Norwegian lesbians and their their journey to get pregnant, and I like we're crying looking at the Instagram when they find out that their baby like the embryo took like we are it's it is storytelling at its brightest.

You know what I mean? There's there's this guy on TikTok that I I he's blown up so quickly, I'm forgetting his name at the moment. But he's basically made himself famous from all these videos about like perfect ways to gaslight his partners and like that's all like fake stuff, it's not real. But like the how to gaslight himself into thinking he's having a good day by like you know, and it's just like it's insane. But to even go down that rabbit hole of how are you coming up with these things on the daily basis, the creativity level of this guy's wild mind is probably problematic, but I'm here literally rolling on the ground. Yeah, like thank you so much for your contribution to my waste of time. Um truly so much. Um, but with that said, yours is all incredible and vibrant and wonderful, and so thank you for giving that to all of us.

[6:23] Jennifer Apple: Um you're making your Broadway debut.

[6:26] MiMi Scardulla: Yes, my official Broadway debut.

[6:28] Jennifer Apple: Yes. It's incredible.

[6:29] MiMi Scardulla: It's incredible and insane and magical and hard, and um all of these, this like cornucopia of emotions at the same time, you know. Um, it's never lost on me at the end of the show. Um, even on the days where my body is so tired and I feel like I'm kind of living Groundhog's Day. This is the longest run I've ever done. Um, even on those days where it feels very much like a job. There is still an essence of the dream in there. And so that has been a beautiful coming of age in the realizing of the dream that the dream is always exists every night. But there is a the word job is attached to that dream now. And so coming to terms with that and also being very uh kind to myself about allowing myself to feel all the emotions that come with having a job that that is this demanding.

[7:32] Jennifer Apple: Correct. Like it is a demanding job.

[7:34] MiMi Scardulla: Correct. And um did you know always that this was like the dream, or was it did you go? What was your trajectory before that? Like in terms of your education, in terms of your upbringing, in terms of being integrated in theatrics?

[7:49] MiMi Scardulla: Oh, yeah. I mean, I was dancing on tables when I was five. Like I wanted to perform for the crowd. I wanted to be so I always wanted to be the center of attention. And uh I love my sister, and she loves that I always say this, but like my sister danced, so I danced, and she got me involved in that. And but from there, it was less about the technique and dancing, it was more about oh god, I really like to be on stage, and I really like what this feels like. And um, I loved that transfer of energy between me and the audience from a very young age. You know, I remember being um there was this company called Missoula Children's Theater, and I'm gonna be a people never know Missoula. I guess I almost did it. They I I had a I was offered a contract, and then I was like, Do I want to do this? And I turned it down for a different contract. This was, yeah, like right after undergrad.

[8:51] Jennifer Apple: Wow, okay, that's amazing. I love to hear this.

[8:53] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, um, but they would come and you would you would literally do a show in a week. And I was I was in kindergarten. That's how you had to be in kindergarten. And um you audition with like Robo Row Your Boat, and then you did the week. And so we were bumblebees in Sleeping Beauty because of course there's Bumblebees in Sleeping Beauty. Yeah, why wouldn't they? And there was one moment where all the Bumblebees ran across stage, and I got to be the last Bumblebee, and I was late. So I ran late, I did a little spin, and then I ran off. And it's the opening night, it's the big moment, it's my big moment. I run on stage, I do my little spin, and I run off, and the audience erupts in laughter. And it was like I was like, that was the most incredible feeling in the world.

Like and I'm not sure. No, it's literally imprinted on you. It's imprinted on the other hand. I wish I could like astral plane to back to that moment some days where I'm like, I just want to feel what that was one more time. And I do get that feeling. Like I do get that feeling when um I remember in We Are the Tigers, our first preview, and I accidentally like hurled. Um, I threw a pom pom at someone, and I was supposed to just toss it back, but I just like was so adrenaline-thilled and and nervous that I hurled it at someone and it kind of like she caught it, but it kind of jolted her, and the audience laughed, and it was like a split second of that. Oh, I oh, okay, I did it. I, you know, I did something right, you know, it's like that funny feeling.

So to answer your question in a very long-winded way, I always knew and in a in a beautiful way. My parents always knew. Like I was very good at this from a very young age, and it was less about my talent, but it was more about my passion. Like I would do anything to be on stage in the best ways and in the worst of ways. Um, and I think my parents realized that and was like, we can't see MiMi doing anything else. And so, with that kind of love and support, you know, it it just you just it gets it's rocket fuel to make it, you know, and um, and it comes with a lot of hard work and a lot of you know emotional turmoil and happiness and all kinds of things. But um, yeah, it was I always knew that that it was it was gonna be Broadway for me, was gonna be performing for me.

[11:15] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. Well, now that you're in it, I'm curious how it's been for you in terms of the sustaining of it. You kind of mentioned it turning into this job thing. I remember that happened to me on Band's Visit too, and it was like maybe like show 50, which honestly feels really low out of how many we ended up doing. But at show 50, you're like, I this is in my body. I could do this in my sleep. I probably am doing this in my sleep. And how do you muscularly keep that fresh? How do you emotionally keep that vibrant? How do you stay present and listen? And I just remember this one night on stage where I it was exactly that. I was like, it was kind of like an out-of-body moment where I was not there.

And I had this come too where I was like, did I do any of the things that I just thought I did? Like I could have sworn that I wasn't existing, and now I'm actually on the stage and there's thousands of people who are watching me. No, no, there is some person in that audience who paid a lot of money to see you. This is their first show they've ever seen ever. How dare you phone it in and rob this person of an experience that actually might change the course of their life? Like, how dare you? And there was like a light bulb moment that I had literally on stage in real time while I'm doing my job. Where it's like, what are you? How dare you feel so privileged that you can just sit there and not actually like dial it back and remember what you're doing? Anyway, all that's to say, how is that for you where you realize, oh no, this is a job and the marriage of your art that you love so much?

[12:48] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, it will for me it hit kind of around that uh that like January, February, five, six months, right?

[12:57] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[12:58] MiMi Scardulla: In February, we were actually really lucky. We had pretty uh very well sold February, which is usually when Broadway takes a big dip because it's winter. Um, but there's less people out there. Uh, your body starts to it really starts to hit home. Your body, your body is like, oh, we're doing, we're doing this, we're still doing this. Okay. It's also cold, it's also like you're out, you're lacking vitamins. It's it's down to like how do we heat the space in a way that's not too hot or too cold. It's like there's so many things that go into it. Um, so that's when it kind of hit for me. And to give context, like I found out I got a Beautiful Noise on my birthday last year. So, and we started a week later.

So, on April 26th, really, I've been doing this show for a year now. My body has been living in the show for a year now, so it's all that's a lot of time to be singing the same things, dancing the same things. Um, but for me, it was it, you know, my bot I my body is quite tolerant of a lot of things. I'm so grateful for my body. It is such a fucking badass to to be blunt. Um, but for me, it was a big emotional thing. It was catching myself in those moments, being like, you know, in the simplest moments, being like, what am I gonna have for dinner tomorrow? I wonder what I'm gonna do. And I'm being like, oh, what am I doing? You know, and and it's hard because it is so second nature, you know, and we are so good at it.

Like you, it's it comes from a place of being really good at what you do that you can kind of like just allow your body to show up, and trusting, trusting that your body knows what it's doing, exactly. Um, but for me, what I realized was that I was sitting at home drinking coffee till 3:30, uh, you know, doing my skincare and then leaving to go to the show.

[14:55] MiMi Scardulla: We were going, going, going, press, press, press, press, press. So my body was exhausted. Um, but I found that I woke up, I did the show, I went to bed. And I think that's what made it feel so mundane, which what made it feel like a desk job a little bit. And as we've come into the spring and we've come into like March and April, I've tried to be a lot better about being a human during the day and like seeing a friend for a coffee, running an errand, not being like chained to the fact that I have to be at the theater by six o'clock. Like there's a lot of day that happens before six o'clock.

[15:32] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. Um, but yeah, it's been about being a human outside of it and feeling full and whole outside of the theater, and then having the moment of like, oh wow, I just lived an entire day in New York, and now I get to do my show on Broadway. Little MiMi dreamed of this.

[15:49] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. So it's connecting her dream to like when I wasn't in the show and when I'm in the show that kind of helped me a little bit. And it's hard. It's also what helps you stay mindful in it is knowing, like, oh, I did, you know, I recently cut my heel, right? Uh as in an accident at the theater. And uh my mom was in town and we have been walking around all day long, and my foot hurt bad. Now, could I have gone to work and done the show? Yeah, but would I have the whole time been like, I wish I was home, I wish I was home, just relaxing.

[16:23] MiMi Scardulla: It's knowing and trusting that tonight someone is gonna do the show better than me. Yeah. And knowing and trusting to be like, I need to stay home so I can go to work tomorrow and be the best for be the be me. Because when I go to work and I'm not feeling 100 or my body needs a night to rest, or you know, I do a lift in the show, my shoulder is really, really tight, and it's just not releasing, and it's just gonna mess something else up. It's knowing when to when to stay on the bench, honestly.

[16:52] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, um, because what's hard about what we do is there's not a coach there. There's not a coach there to be like, hey, Scardulla, you're not, you're not doing the thing right. You know, take a break. There's no one there to say that to you.

[17:04] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, and um, you have to be your own coach, but we're also we're also, you know, bred to be so grateful, be so grateful you're in this show, you're so grateful. Your show could go away at any moment. Be grateful, you have to perform blah blah. Gratefulness will tear you apart in a way. Now gratefulness will do so many great things for you. Gratitude is so important, but I think that it's knowing when to put yourself on the bench for the night and knowing like, oh, this someone's gonna do this better.

[17:31] MiMi Scardulla: That's why we have incredible swings and understudies. Yeah, um, and those moments where you do choose yourself and your wellness, get you back in touch with your body, get you back in touch with what you need. You take a night to give yourself what you need. I take a night to give myself, I'll speak for myself. I take a night to give myself what I need and what I need to succeed. I'm showing up to work as if it's day one instead of if it's day 205.

[17:55] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. You know what I mean? So that has been really important for me to learn. And that's how I've um helped myself sustaining this long of a run. Because it's hard. I think that's such an important thing to note, though, is that arguably the conversation around like swings and understudies and covers um and standbys and all of that has shifted, thankfully, because of the pandemic and the need that was like, hey, these people are here saving the show.

[18:23] MiMi Scardulla: Could we talk about that? Um, but with that in mind, it's like I feel like when I was first starting out, the ability to call out was like not even allowed. Frankly, when I didn't call out of Band's Visit until uh like a religious holiday because it was like I need to do this, and I was guilted into like not doing that.

[18:48] MiMi Scardulla: But it's like my understudy wants to go on. I want her to have the opportunity. Why are you also robbing her of that? Like she's incredible. Like everyone's winning here. Um and changing the way in which we're talking about it too. That it's not even about self-care, it's not even about necessarily like calling out. It's like you're a human being whose body is the thing that's doing the thing that you need.

[19:13] MiMi Scardulla: And it's like if this body is unable to do the thing, then it shouldn't be there. Like, why are we forcing people to do things? Anyway, I have a lot of feelings about that.

[19:23] Jennifer Apple: No, I feel so similarly, and I think that like for me, it came in as like, oh, they're gonna like Michael Mayer's gonna read a show report that MiMi called out two weeks in a row, and then Michael's not gonna want to hire me because he doesn't think I have a great work. Somehow that narrative got concocted in my brain.

[19:42] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah.

[19:42] Jennifer Apple: And Michael Mayer's amazing. Like he's just the director I work for right now. But you know, he would never think twice. But um, but also have a conversation with you and be like, hey, is everything okay?

[19:55] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, and also like it doesn't. And also he's not reading the show notes to be like attracting your attendance, right?

[20:01] Jennifer Apple: Exactly.

[20:01] MiMi Scardulla: And um, and I think as, you know, I think as a fat person, as a big person, right? When we walk into the room for an audition or for um, you know, an appointment or anything, we are seen as weak, right? Our otherness is seen as weak.

[20:26] MiMi Scardulla: We are not strong enough to um, you know, control how much we eat. We are not strong enough to lose all the weight, we are not to maintain a small body, right? Like there is just, and that's not anybody's personal that that could be someone's personal opinion, but that is like society as a whole.

[20:43] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, assumptions, the fashion industry, the television industry, the every industry is taught that there is privilege in thinness, that there is excellence in skinniness. Um, so when I walk into the an audition, I walk in with I not only have to prove to you that I'm talented, I have to prove to you that the body I exist in is not less than any other body that anybody else exists in.

[21:07] MiMi Scardulla: So when it comes to calling out of the show, when it comes to being at work or not at work, there was a whole other like psychological thing that I had to burst through to be like I can't call out of the show a lot because then people will think that fat people can't hang and need to call out of the show a lot, and that like I'm carrying all that weight on my shoulders.

[21:30] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, yeah. And so um, which is rooted in truth. There are people out there that do believe that, but there are way more people that don't believe that. You know, Stephen Hoggett is incredible, and I often I talk about being a big person and my past experiences and what why things mean a lot to me, why being on the show on this show in the ensemble means a lot to me.

[21:55] MiMi Scardulla: And you know, he looks at me and goes, I don't see you as a big girl. Like, that's not, I don't see you that way. You're just MiMi, you're just a dancer. And I go, Steven, I love you for that. I love you so much for that. And I speak about the past so that more people can see me like you do, yeah.

[22:15] MiMi Scardulla: Because you are sadly not the norm, you are not the constant.

[22:20] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and so um that's another thing of like self-care and that that is on top of that. Um, and in our industry, we have created this narrative around.

[22:33] MiMi Scardulla: So, you know, I agree. I think that calling out of a show should never you should never feel bad for that because at the end of the day, the producer wants to put out the best show possible every night.

[22:46] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, and if you can't call out because of that religious obligation, you're not your head's not gonna be in the game. Your head's gonna be where where you want to be with your family or where you need to be as your own deep knowing.

[23:00] MiMi Scardulla: Like, so to me, the best show possible should hit the stage every night. And and it's also knowing that sometimes that doesn't include me. You know, like that's knowing that I'm really tired, or um, you know, I so I I had a vocal injury when we were out of town in Boston.

[23:18] MiMi Scardulla: And I think back, and the minute that I saw what I saw on the scope, I should have been like, hey guys, I'm out. Like, I have to go home. I have to heal. I will take this, I will not get this money, and I will go home and I will heal, and I will come back when we go to Broadway better. You know what I mean?

[23:37] MiMi Scardulla: And I didn't feel like I could do that. And maybe maybe that would have been I don't, I'll never know if I had made that choice. But um, I think for far too long we've allowed ourselves, you know, our body is our blessing, our body is our our gifts, right?

[24:00] MiMi Scardulla: So if we don't treat our bodies well, yeah, if we don't give our bodies what we need, there is no longer the gift to give.

[24:06] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, you know. Oof, you just spoke so beautifully and openly and vulnerably. So thank you for all of that. And yes, completely to this idea that your body is the gift. I mean, in all like regardless of what we do as artists, that is the fact.

[24:23] Jennifer Apple: That is your vehicle through which you will live your beautiful life, but also as artists who are using our bodies as athletes, which is what we are on a daily basis, even more so caring for it in the ways that you need to to sustain yourself, forget the industry and the job.

[24:43] MiMi Scardulla: It's I mean, the shifting of the narrative around that has been something that I really want to continue trying to at least talk about so that we can have the verbiage to hopefully get to a point that this isn't even a conversation we're having, it's part of the norm as opposed to the exception.

[25:03] Jennifer Apple: Have you been using the same monologue for years and could use a new piece? Are you applying to BA, BFA, or MFA programs and need a monologue for that process? Are you someone who simply has no idea where to search for monologues?

[25:18] Jennifer Apple: Well, lucky for you, I do what is called monologue sourcing, in which I find monologues specifically chosen for you. So many artists use pieces based off external labeling for types and roles rather than find pieces, sharing who they really are and what speaks to them.

[25:36] Jennifer Apple: So we'll meet virtually together. You share who you are as a human, what you love, your dislikes, your values, beliefs, family, friends, love, politics, you name it, I will help guide you through this. And then I go off on my own and find you monologues chosen just for you that fit like a glove.

[25:53] Jennifer Apple: I've been doing monologue sourcing for years as an extension of the coaching I do with artists, and I have found pieces in this way for over hundreds of artists thus far. So if you are someone who wants to feel empowered about the monologues you bring into rooms and use for auditions, I would love to help you find them.

[26:11] Jennifer Apple: And because you are a dedicated listener of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast, I want to provide you with a custom link to an exclusive rate when you check out today. Head to EmpoweredArtistCollective.com/slash podcast promo to register.

[26:20] Jennifer Apple: That's EmpoweredArtistsCollective.com/slash podcast promo right now. I cannot wait to help you find monologues you absolutely adore.

[26:38] Jennifer Apple: I would love to chat a bit more with you about body diversity and being a fat performer and being somebody who is so beautifully vocal about all of that when so many people cower at even just the verbiage, let alone the conversation.

[26:55] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. I mean, I think we have to start talking about it, or it will continue to be this taboo thing, and it's just not. Um, and I think that it's one of those things that a lot of people feel as though they are being pointed at.

[27:10] MiMi Scardulla: Like you feel this way, and you're a bad person and you choose to feel this way. And again, there that's that always exists, right? But I think that what people don't realize is that as a fat person, we realize the society that groomed you to feel the way you feel.

[27:27] MiMi Scardulla: Like we realize uh and in a way we've had to like don of arc ourselves out of that and and restructure our own brains to then now restructure your brains.

[27:39] MiMi Scardulla: Um but that's like not your responsibility. I think like what I'm hearing is like it's just it's yeah, no, totally. Yes, it's not my responsibility, but I'm happy to make it my responsibility because I think for me, as I grew up and as I knew I wanted to do this, I you know, I looked up to Gwen Verdon and Debbie Allen and Cheetah Rivera and um these incredible women that could dance and sing and act all at the same time and could just captivate you in the most incredible ways.

[28:14] MiMi Scardulla: And that's what I trained myself to do. That's what I wanted. And so I was able to kind of block out and put blinders on to all the people that did not see me as such.

[28:33] Jennifer Apple: And putting it in the world. How were you able to do that? Because that is such a that is such mental fortitude, especially as a young person, to be able to tune out such blaringly loud noise.

[28:44] Jennifer Apple: Because it's not just in a room that you're in a rehearsal space, it's magazines and it's movies and it's songs and it's it's all of the media that we're consuming, and it's your friends and it's your peer. I mean, it's literally how do you that is such mental fortitude. How do you tune that out?

[28:56] MiMi Scardulla: Um, I give all the credit to uh my dance teacher Diana Jones. She's an incredible woman uh who just saw me from a very young age.

[29:08] MiMi Scardulla: Like she saw that maybe I wasn't gonna be the most technical dancer and like all that, but she saw that I was meant to be something, and she was very vocal in telling me and my mom and my family about that.

[29:23] MiMi Scardulla: You know, she she saw the potential for something, and she never let me forget that potential. I also have to give all the the glory to my mother.

[29:35] MiMi Scardulla: You know, if I said I wanted to be a cheerleader, my mom did what she had to do to to give me the chance, the the biggest fighting chance I could, you know.

[29:53] MiMi Scardulla: I had everything, but like I needed to have a better toe touch. So it was that. Um, you know, she has always been a champion of that, you know, of me, of so in her teaching me that like, okay, you want this, you want A, then we do everything we can to get A. Um, and that's a lot of hard work. And honestly, you know, I am part of that, you know. Tell me I can't, and I will show you I can, crew. Yes, you know what I mean? I'll never forget I was going to Broadway Theater Project when I was 15, 16, something like that. And I had to get a physical because you have to do that to go to camps, I guess. And the doctor came in and I was perfectly fine. All my numbers were perfectly fine. She goes, you know, MiMi, you are overweight.

And you know, I think there's just gonna, I just need to tell you there's gonna be things at this camp that you're not gonna be able to do. Like, you might have to sit out and you might have to like not, you might not be able to keep up with everyone else. So, you know, I am gonna put she's overweight, but working on a lifestyle change on your thing. Oh my god. And I remember walking out of there. I think I was 15. Because I think you have to be, I was either 14 or 15, one of those ages. And I remember being like, F you, like, yeah, I like you think I'm not gonna be able to go there and succeed. Well, I'm gonna show you. I'm gonna show you exactly how well I can do. Um, because you don't know me.

You don't know what I dance, you don't know that I am a competition dancer, that I've won dance competitions and I've danced till 1:30 in the morning. Like, you just you don't know my life. So, like, who are you to tell me? Yeah, and so I've used that, and I've used that continually and continually throughout my life to be like, oh, you think I can't do this, but I can, and I can do it really well. Um, so I think, you know, having that kind of gumption built in for me, you know what I mean? Um, also really really helped me allow myself to put on those blinders and just keep moving forward, you know. I have this, I have I think everyone every one of us on earth have a deep knowing, and it tells us what we know, what we need to know and what we need to hear.

The deep knowing knows before we do to me, that's God. Um, and I think that we know what we need to know to get to where we want to get. And I think that I saw Gwen Verdon and I was like, Yes, that is me. That is me, that is what I want to do. I can see myself on stage. And I was so I am so lucky to have been able to stay intact with that specific knowledge throughout my entire career and not allow others to kind of infiltrate that. And if I ever faltered from that, you know, I was sent a gift of a person. You know, Tyler Haynes is an amazing friend, mentor, brother of mine, creative partner of mine. And when I was at BTP, my second year, we were I was taking class and I was kind of towards the back, and he was like, Oh my god, you're great.

Come in the front. Like, like don't stand in the back. And like it was that reminder of like, oh, okay, I know I'm I'm right. That's my connection. I'm right. And so I'm just extreme insanely lucky. Insanely lucky that those moments have come into my life and have reminded me to keep going forward and keep working towards the knowing.

[33:43] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[33:45] Jennifer Apple: I'm hearing two things. I'm hearing one is what you keep talking about with like this inner knowing, which is something that Glennon Doyle talks about all the time and something that I also really deeply relate. That we've been taught, many of us to actually quiet our inner knowing, whether we call it our intuition, we call it our gut, we call it like spiritual, whatever it is for you. We've been taught to like ignore it or assume that it doesn't know best or that it's not really a guiding compass, but it's there and it's been there all the time and it will continue being there. So it's I'm hearing this inner knowing that you have in your own belief, your own worth, regardless of what is surrounding you, and the importance of being surrounded by people who affirm you, who validate you, and who support you relentlessly, regardless of everything else, not because you need their approval, but because they desperately love and care about you and want you to succeed.

And I feel like those are that's a very different thing than like, oh, I'm trying to find people who are going to just tell me I'm wonderful because I need that because I don't feel it enough for myself. Those are two very different things. It's like the added layer of I know this in myself. No one can take that away from me, even though it's really hard potentially growing up in a world that is going to try to tell me otherwise. And I'm also blessed to have people that see me for who I am and want to continue uplifting all that I am in a way that is just simply out of support and love.

[35:09] MiMi Scardulla: Yes, what a gift for you to have to know that and have that.

[35:14] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, it's this, you know, to connect to what we previously spoke about, like it's like that book, The Giving Tree, but except I feel as actors and performers, you're the tree and the little boy. Yeah. Like we ask so much of ourselves, and we're so ready to give it to ourselves, and then we just ask ourselves for a little bit more and a little bit more and a little bit more. Um you need that. And then I find sometimes that like the people that help us along the way are like the people reading the book, right? So like I'm the tree, I'm the little boy, and Tyler or my mom or Miss Diana are the readers who are like, okay, what I'm reading is is that you're not doing A and you need to do B. Or what I'm reading is is that you are of this beautiful tree that can grow and grow and grow and grow.

Yeah. Right. Um, and it's just about, you know, Krista Chinowith talks about uses this phrase, um, that's like in regards to being religious and you know, supporting LGBTQ plus communities, and she goes, you know, um, I learn to read the Bible, I learn to practice my faith, like I eat fish, I eat what serves me, and I don't choke on the bones. So, like I think you can apply that to being a fat person in this industry. You need to take what serves you because you're going to get great advice from people, yeah. But you can't choke on the bones of the people that are closed minded or not trustworthy of what you can do, or are not enlightened to the possibilities of who you are and who this what this world can be.

[36:56] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. Um, and I think that's it's really important because I am, I will say I am of the minority of bigger people. Um in what way?

[37:07] MiMi Scardulla: And in the way of like having this determined unfaltering ability to go after what I want and not allow the other stuff to come in.

[37:21] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[37:21] MiMi Scardulla: When I was younger, you know what I mean? Like I think a lot, I speak to a lot of performers and a lot of just just fat people in the world that aren't performers. And what I hear is that, well, this person said this to me, so I decided to do this, and I never got to do this because this person said this. And I hear that, and I'm like, oh my God, I wish, I wish we could have known each other. I wish that you could have known a Tyler, or I wish you had a Messiah, or I wish you had, you know, all these amazing mentors I've had. And so that's what I mean. Like, I really did hit the lottery in the people that I've been surrounded with.

[38:00] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[38:00] MiMi Scardulla: And I hit the lottery within myself of like having that gumption and that trust, you know, it's hard, it's really, really hard.

[38:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[38:09] MiMi Scardulla: And um that's why to connect back. That's why I talk about it so much.

[38:13] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[38:13] MiMi Scardulla: I talk about it so much because I think that the more people hear that you can break that boundary, people build in front of you, or that your anxieties build in front of you, or that your uncertainty builds in front of you, that that there is a world where you can break through that and pass that boundary is all this magical stuff that's at your fingertips. I think the more that we have more big booties on Broadway. We have more people who are there and ready to take chances and are ready to be seen. And so I use the privilege that I have of having those people surround me and having the determination and the ability to put on those blinders from a young age to now hopefully like give out more blinders for more youngins to have that as they go forward.

[39:11] MiMi Scardulla: Because I know there's so many that did it, you know.

[39:14] Jennifer Apple: No, it's, I mean, we're not gonna change the entire industry in this one conversation, though the obviously like you having you here is like the hopes that we can begin to include this in our conversations more inclusively. But I I'm wondering for people that say struggle with even just using the word fat, or maybe somebody doesn't like to be referred to as such. How do how do we as a culture begin naming and honoring and also caring for the way in which people like to be referred to, B, the, and I know you don't represent everybody, so I don't want to put this on you as like you know, the spokesperson of, but like people want to be called different things, people feel comfortable being called different stuff.

Um, people have their own, you know, um lives that they've lived beforehand and have different associations with things. How do we begin to change the dialogue of around body diversity? Is there a specific way to start referring to it? How do we start including it in the breakdowns of things? What is what are some perhaps steps in that movement for you?

[40:25] MiMi Scardulla: The first thing that comes through my brain, it's such a big thing. Uh that question is so it's like an iceberg. It's like one thing on the surface and then it's so deep. Um, which is why I name like we're not gonna solve all of it. It's just like the beginnings of even just talking about that iceberg existing. Totally. I think it is um, I think it's putting the people where your words are. And that is my version of put your the your money where your mouth is. I do think that breakdowns are starting to call for all body types and all things. And I think um, you know, we're seeing a lot of people doing amazing things. There's a director, I believe her name is Billy, and um, she directed Cinderella somewhere regionally, and uh this past summer, and I went in for Cinderella.

And I think that the language in her breakdown was so beautifully said, and she not only wanted all types of people, you were actually like when waiting to audition, seeing all types of people. So I think that that's really important.

[41:32] MiMi Scardulla: Um that calling for all types of people and then showing that, um, and and actually doing that. I also think that it's it's respecting the um, you know, if a role is played by someone of size of someone of size of a fat person of a big person, I think that they should then be covered by someone who is big. Um and I think, you know, respecting that as as a type of human that needs to be seen on the stage, you know. You know, um, I remember during the the the um flourishing the blaze of the the Black Lives Matter movement in theater. Um we were at I was at a protest that was at Columbus Circle and the his name is escaping me. He said, I want to I want to ride the subway and see all these people and I want to go to a Broadway show and see all the same type of people.

And I think that um that is a beautiful way to put it. Uh so I think it's that. I think it's putting your people where your words are, bringing those people in, seeing them, taking chances on people. Um, I think it is opening your mind and taking the chances on um, you know, what does a beautiful Anjou look like and what what do you think she looks like and what can she what what has she always looked like, you know? I everyone's like, MiMi, what's your dream or what's your this? I was like, I want to be in a show where someone falls madly in love with me and has nothing to do with my size. Yes. You know what I mean? And I think that's what I think we just have to start uh opening the door a little bit wider.

[43:17] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah, you know what I mean? I think that's how you started. I think you bring in all types of people and you see all types of people and you and you trust you trust the audience to see and love and appreciate that.

[43:40] MiMi Scardulla: And your artists to show up. Like I think that it goes back to what you were saying earlier about like people having perhaps assumptions about certain body types being not able to do things. It's like if this artist is showing up, trust that they think that they can do it, and they will prove to you that they can.

[43:58] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[43:59] MiMi Scardulla: And I and I think, you know, again, I've I've been so lucky that um I have worked with incredible choreographers and directors who have been champions of me and seen me as the type of performer I am. Um, and you know, for every one of them, there's three that you know won't even let someone over a size eight think about the ensemble. And that's what's so important to me about being in A Beautiful Noise is that, you know, I was previously in a show, and I was like, everyone knows that someone looks that looks like me can play a stepsister, like that that trope, the big girl stepsister has been around since the Brandy Cinderella, right?

[44:49] MiMi Scardulla: But what people haven't seen is a big girl in the ensemble dancing her butt off all the same as everyone else. Like, you do not have that I'm like singing singing singing, and I'm gonna run off stage and dance by the bar while everybody dances. I'm not doing that in A Beautiful Noise. I am in it, I am dancing the whole time. I am there is no less. I do no less than any other dancer on stage, and that's really important. That is what we have to see more of. Um, or I want people to take more chances on because I think that you know, I always used to say you're missing out on so much fun just because you want to do lifts. You know what I mean? You are missing out on so much um intricacies and so much, so you're you're letting down so many people who want to connect with your art by not allowing anybody in your ensemble that can't be lifted over someone's head or whatever. You know what I mean? Also, you're selling your own creativity short.

[45:54] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. Um, and so that's why being in A Beautiful Noise is so important to me because I think that everyone in the world knows the tropes of the big girl, the best friend, the Tracy, the stepsister, the goofy one, the la, you know, the no one could ever be in love with me. But what we don't see is the leading lady, the fierce dance ensemble member, the, you know, and I just that's where I want us to go is that we're seeing everybody in every element of the show.

[46:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[46:28] MiMi Scardulla: So to that answer. Yes, no, no, no, no. I'm I'm here for a tangent. Um, and then what about the verbiage around it? Obviously, it's you know, everybody has their own um preference for how they like to be referred to in their own bodies. Why for you is the word fat specifically important? How have you also found um other folks um liked like the actual literal words?

[46:55] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. Well, I think for me, I use fat because I think it's really important because uh fat, if you look up the definition of fat, there is nothing about ugly, unwanted, less than in the definition of fat. Fat is a fat is a fact, you know what I mean? Um, and but I think it's it became this word that oh my god, I look fat. Oh my god, I look fat. It became this big negative. And to me, using fat and saying it, I'm fat. Oh my god, it's so fun. We're fat, I'm fat. Um like reclaiming it, it. It reclaims it a little bit and says to people that that doesn't mean um I'm ugly or I'm less than, or it's not a you know what I mean, like it's become a bad word, and it's no reason that it should be a bad word.

[47:44] MiMi Scardulla: Um so that's why I use fat often. I use fat, I use big. Um I use all the words that people like I'm oh I look so big today. I'm like, oh, okay, you know, a great word. Um but I think that what's important is I think when you're first meeting someone to not put upon them your opinion of them. So I I will sometimes make you make a joke, I'm like, honey, she big, these thighs, they they don't lie. And someone's like, oh my god, no, you're beautiful. And I'm like, I know I'm beautiful and my thighs are big, but I'm happy to now know how you feel. Like I'm happy to now know that you think I should hate my thighs.

[48:27] MiMi Scardulla: That's what that tells me. That doesn't tell me that you want me to love myself. What it's telling me is that you think I should hate myself, but I actually don't. It's a reflection of them over you.

[48:35] MiMi Scardulla: It's a reflection of them over me. Um, and I think it's just about kind of like falling in line. I think I it's very hard in that sense when it comes to size, because um, you know, we have like we have whatever the standard size, people now have mid size, plus size, yeah. I you know, I think it's verbiage is hard.

[48:56] MiMi Scardulla: Uh and I I feel hard, it feels hard to speak about what verbiage to use and what not to use. I think follow someone's lead.

[49:03] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[49:04] MiMi Scardulla: Um, in that sense, or if you're meeting someone and you're, you know, don't say anything about it. You know what I mean? Like don't other someone just for the sake of othering them. You know.

[49:17] MiMi Scardulla: Um I remember in the process of uh in the costuming process for the show, you know, we would have stand-in costumes and it would always be like me and me and another girl in one type of stand-in and then every other girl was in another type of stand in. And in my mind I'm like, I don't deserve that othering.

[49:38] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[49:38] MiMi Scardulla: You either find one dress that fits all of us as a stand-in or you just don't do a stand-in until the actual costume's ready. You know what I mean? Did you say something?

[49:49] Jennifer Apple: We we did in the grand scheme of things we did.

[49:51] MiMi Scardulla: And um you know and again it's it's never done in malice. That's what's so hard about it all is no one's trying to be no one's trying to other us. But it's just those little things that feel okay that in the end don't feel okay that make you feel that takes you back to being a little girl who can't who won who can't wear bikinis who can only wear one piece. You know what I mean?

[50:17] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[50:17] MiMi Scardulla: And so no one should have to deal with that social thing in at work.

[50:21] MiMi Scardulla: Yeah. Um so I I don't I don't I don't know about the verbiage thing for me. But I think it's following someone's lead and I think it's about when you don't have to say something about it if there is not something to be said. You know what I mean?

[50:35] Mm-hmm.

[50:36] MiMi Scardulla: And then I think also the trying and messing up I think there's something about people not wanting to sp I think about it from like a breakdown perspective and you know casting and producers and like wanting to the in the effort to be inclusive, there's actually some harm being done because they're actually tiptoeing around the thing rather than naming the thing, and it's like you can name the thing and then we can readjust, you know, also.

[50:57] MiMi Scardulla: Um, I think yeah, I it's it's just helpful, I think, to talk it through.

[51:01] Jennifer Apple: And so yeah, and I I I agree. I think it's just being like, if you want someone that's plus size, say that. If you want someone that's this, say that. If you want, if you really don't care, just don't say anything about body type.

[51:15] MiMi Scardulla: Actually, anything about body type, you know what I mean? Um I think it's there's so much road to travel when it comes to that, yeah, and getting the people in the room in the right ways.

[51:29] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[51:30] MiMi Scardulla: Before we fully wind on our time, is there anything like on your heart or anything on your mind that we didn't discuss that you want to share or you want to bring into the space?

[51:42] MiMi Scardulla: Oh, I'm in a space right now where I am focusing on myself because I think often what people don't tell you when you're on Broadway or when you're in a long-running show. I won't even say Broadway, there are tours, there are people in tours that probably experience very similar things, or cruise ships or cruise ships or anything. What no one is talking about, or what no one's talking about realistically, is like the anthropology of it all of the socialization of it all, the social you know, dynamics.

[52:21] MiMi Scardulla: And I think that in my everyday life, I am so empathetic and I am so I'm like a little sponge. I absorb and I want to be there for people and I want to, you know, help them. Um, but I think that doing a show eight times a week, doing a long running show, doing the same thing wears, and I think when you when that's wearing and then you're going to work and you're worried about everybody else's wares that I found myself not not not not serving myself you know what I mean I was serving everyone else at dinner and then there was no food left for me yeah um and a lot of people talk about this a lot of people talk about this um and I talk about it only because it's really hard for me um to make the choice to serve myself to make the choice to keep my podcast in while I get ready instead of socially engaging in my brain that makes me look mean or cold or or um or someone's gonna think I'm upset because I'm not talking like I usually do.

[53:25] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[53:25] MiMi Scardulla: But at the end of the day I'm gonna have a better show and I'm gonna be a better friend and be in a better headspace throughout the show if I take that extra time for myself.

[53:33] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[53:34] MiMi Scardulla: And so I guess what I I want you know up and coming artists you know or just artists in general to know is that serve yourself at dinner too you know serve yourself what you need and what what is going to you know fill your cup at the end of the day and um yeah you can't pour for an empty cup you can't you can't pour from and I think it's hard it's hard because there's so you are in one little room with with 10 other personalities 10 other days everyone's walking in having lived vastly different days and that can become like a little like circus in your brain.

[54:14] MiMi Scardulla: And so it's knowing that it's okay to like choose yourself in that situation or separate yourself in a situation or uh engage or not engage, or you know what I mean? I think that that's it's really hard because we all want it to be like kiki kaka, ooh, ooh, ooh, we're so friends, happy, happy, happy. And we all are friends, we all are happy, happy, happy. But some days you just need to like stay plugged in, and you need to, you know, some days I just get ready at home so that I can like show up to work at the last possible second. I could put on my costume, I can do my job, and I can get back home, right?

[54:49] MiMi Scardulla: Like there are just layers and layers and layers and layers of that. And um, it's something that I didn't have a big awareness of of that social aspect of being in a long-running show. And so I think that like if you're prepping to do one, if you have the desire to do one, know those things, know those touchstones that you have to bring you back to yourself and connect it to yourself and your feelings and your ones, um, especially if you're empathetic like me.

[55:21] MiMi Scardulla: Which most of us are. I mean, that's you know, so many of us are just feeling human beings. And I think just adding to that too, just you know, not taking it personally from the receiving end. You know, it's like when you were in the dressing room and somebody else is doing that around you, and somebody else is taking care of themselves or listening to their, you know, AirPods, or um, you know, uh scrolling on their phone and not really engaging or just reading a book, whatever they're doing, also remembering that has nothing to do with you.

[55:50] MiMi Scardulla: That's nothing to do with you.

[55:51] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and it's magical.

[55:52] MiMi Scardulla: It's a hard muscle. But it's magical. I will say, two people who have taught me so much. One, Paige Foray, who's a Broadway legend. If you don't know her, she's incredible. Um, she has just kept me so centered and grounded and checked in and um and so realistic about what's happening around me and what's happening in the show and how Broadway just exists in general.

[56:18] MiMi Scardulla: Um so I love her. She's taught me that. And Tatiana Lofton, who's in the show with me, she's insanely talented. But Tati is like tapped in. Those AirPods are in. She is watching a real housewife and she's getting ready. And she goes on stage and she's there with us and present. And that is just her process.

[56:37] MiMi Scardulla: And I I observed it a lot when we were out of town in Boston. I was like, that's so that's so wild. But now being on Broadway, I'm like, yeah, there are days where I just need to listen to Las Culturistas until the last possible moment and be in my joy, and then I can go, you know, tell everybody about Neil Diamond.

[56:55] MiMi Scardulla: Like it is just I appreciate people who are so firm in knowing themselves because it's it's helped me know myself and know what I've needed. So those two ladies have like been amazing for me.

[57:07] Jennifer Apple: I love that.

[57:08] MiMi Scardulla: Um for anybody who wants to follow along on your glitter sparkly gorgeous journey, or they want to work with you, or they want to hire you, what within your own boundaries is the best way for people to reach out.

[57:22] MiMi Scardulla: Oh my goodness. Um, okay, so reach out to me on Instagram at MiMi Scardulla. Um, and yeah, do that. That's I'm pretty I'm pretty good at responding to that. But I would love to work with you. I would love to coach you, I would love to teach for you, I would love to chat with you.

[57:41] MiMi Scardulla: Um, I have a really cute dog. I post about her all the time. Um, so yeah, follow along. It's uh we're twirling somewhere.

[57:51] Jennifer Apple: Um, thank you so much for joining us in this space and for going on this journey and again for just being so open and vulnerable and um transparent and visible for people to actually see themselves.

[58:09] Jennifer Apple: And um I'm so excited for all that is in store for you on your beginnings of your journey. You're so young. Like your career is going to be long and fruitful. So I'm just really pumped to continue being in your corner and supporting you and seeing how it all continues to play out.

[58:25] MiMi Scardulla: So thank you for being here.

[58:27] MiMi Scardulla: And thank you for having me and um giving me space to rant about my deep inner knowings and feelings and fatness.

[58:35] MiMi Scardulla: I love it.

[58:36] MiMi Scardulla: I love it. Anytime, truly anytime.

[58:40] Jennifer Apple: If this podcast means something to you, it would mean the most to us if you would like, rate, follow, and most importantly, review us on Apple Podcasts in Podcast Land.

[58:52] Jennifer Apple: This allows us to continue putting out episodes each week and finding other listeners who want to participate in conversations like this one. Now, if you did not like this episode or don't like this podcast, just let it all slide.

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[59:24] Jennifer Apple: As always, I am so endlessly grateful that you keep on coming back.

[59:29] Jennifer Apple: And we will be back again next week. Until then.