This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:02] Jennifer Apple: Hello, welcome to this week's episode of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:06] Jennifer Apple: My name is Jennifer Apple, and this week I talk to Melissa Moschitto and Dr. Haile Eshe Cole of The Anthropologists, which is a theater company dedicated to the creation of devised theater that inspires action.

[0:20] Jennifer Apple: We discuss this unique approach to investigative theater and explore how anthropology and research intersect with storytelling and art. They share what it means to challenge assumptions, break predominant narratives, and unearth hidden histories and stories.

[0:36] Jennifer Apple: We also navigate what it means to lean into the gaps and ask critical questions and embrace the transformative power of art in shaping our understanding of the world. Plus, we unpack what responsibility and accountability are when it comes to devising work specifically and creating art in general. Enjoy.

[1:04] Melissa Moschitto: Hello, hello. Welcome to the space.

[1:04] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Hello.

[1:06] Melissa Moschitto: Hello, thank you. I'm so excited to dive into this conversation.

[1:12] Jennifer Apple: Um, I know y'all hail from The Anthropologists, which we will talk about shortly, but I'm gonna throw it over to each of you individually first. Who are you today?

[1:22] Melissa Moschitto: I will say that today I am a person who is a little bit more in love with theater after having watched the Tony Awards, uh, reigniting that core uh theater kid flame inside of me. And just ever more excited about storytelling and like the ability to tell new stories in new ways.

[1:56] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah, so who am I today? I am someone deeply embedded in mother work. Um, but also looking forward to summertime and relax and self-care. And I would also say that I am uh today I'm exploring kind of what creation and making means to me. Um like how I can that can be more present in my life and and um like what that means for me. So that's who I am today.

[2:31] Jennifer Apple: I love that. How do you two know each other and work together?

[2:36] Melissa Moschitto: So Haile and I uh began our collaboration this past spring when the American Anthropological Association, when they founded a fellowship position uh so that we could have an anthropologist in residence with my theater company, The Anthropologists. And we're so fortunate that Haile applied for this position, and the stars aligned all the so much about Haile's work aligned with what we were seeking, and just really grateful now to be in a collaboration.

[3:21] Jennifer Apple: And what kind of work do you all do at The Anthropologists?

[3:28] Melissa Moschitto: So I am the founding artistic director, and uh primarily I am a director, a playwright, and also a producer. The Anthropologists is dedicated to the collaborative creation of investigative theater that inspires action. So all of our plays are um built by an ensemble and uh built on a foundation of research, source material, cultural artifacts, and we bring that uh research to life through physical theater techniques, and we're really operating as a form of social inquiry where our plays are aiming to uh provoke conversation and get people looking at uh whether it's a period of history or uh something that's happening in the world right now to get it to look at it differently.

[4:24] Melissa Moschitto: We just turned 15.

[4:26] Jennifer Apple: Congrats.

[4:27] Melissa Moschitto: Thank you. We have three guiding questions that we've developed over that decade and a half of making work. Uh definitely didn't start with these questions, but this is what has emerged. Can we use source material to challenge our own assumptions? Can we use research to broaden or break dominant narratives? And can we use archival materials to better understand our present? So those questions, among many other, are always kind of swirling around, and they are our like anchor points. Uh and you know, while we've always been driven by uh a process that values research uh and rigorous dramaturgy, this is the first time that we've had an anthropologist in the room with us.

[5:23] Melissa Moschitto: So it is both a gift to get to benefit from Haile's knowledge and also be in conversation about anthropological practices and theater making practices and how do they differ? How do they align? How can Haile's practice inform our work? So we're in the midst of that exploration.

[5:51] Jennifer Apple: Um, for anybody who's listening who doesn't fully understand the scope of what it means to be an anthropologist or to study anthropology, right? Because I feel like this word is thrown around a little bit in terms of just like our vernacular of how we see the world or what we talk about, and but what is it actually, Haile?

[6:13] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: I always get this question and it always makes me laugh because um people will ask, like, well, what do you do? And I'll be like, I'm an anthropologist. And I get all these really interesting like um ideas about what that is. So it's like, do I dig for bones? Um, is it like Indiana Jones? Like, you know, um, is it, you know, like, is it psychology? You know, it's there's always this overlap between these other sort of social science fields. So at its root, um, if you kind of break anthropology, the word down, you know, it's really kind of the study of humans and humanity, right? At its core. And um, although I'm a cultural, sociocultural anthropologist, um, you know, the study of humans, um, anthropology kind of traverses very various different kinds of ways of looking at that.

So, like physical anthropology, um, archaeology does fall under um anthropology across the board. So looking at kind of you know, historical material culture, biological anthropology, there's forensic anthropology, and all of these kind of entry points by which we use um methods to understand humanity. And so as a cultural anthropologist, we look at um in-depth studies of human culture in various contexts. So that would be like my elevator speech um for what anthropology is. The met, you know, the methods have changed and people are exploring like really new innovative ways of doing research and things like that. But like I would say typically our bread and butter would be ethnographic study, so really in-depth um kind of participant observation, really of you know what we call it, um, in a in the field where you really immerse yourself in a particular culture or context so that you can deeply understand it. Um that that's what I would say is like our primary methodology. Of course, there's some, you know, wiggle room and flexibility with that.

[8:21] Jennifer Apple: So yeah, thank you for elaborating. Um, because now putting these two um together, as in the work that y'all are doing at The Anthropologists and the work that you do, Haile, um, I think we're gonna really be able to dissect the value, the exploration, the um overlap, like w the way in which this is somehow different than just creating from like one's mind or imagination. Um, I'm super curious, as somebody who has devised work for myself, um, and also in collaboration in grad school and undergrad as well, um, this idea of storytelling from the foundation of real, I say that in large quotations actually, but like research and um artifacts and things that exist um prior to people just coming together and being like, what about this as a concept and let's create from that?

And so I'm curious, what do we call the stuff that we're using? Which I know is like an abstract question, but I feel like in a world where so many people question what is real, and so many people question what is truth, and so many people question what is fact. Where do we even start with accumulating the things and how do we decipher what are we using of what the stuff is?

[9:55] Melissa Moschitto: Juicy questions, you know, when looking back on the work that we've created, we did not necessarily start out making work with a very like academic or rigorously academic definition of research and and sort of like what constituted legitimate research, in part because we were making work about people and places and time that that had not been accurately or adequately captured. So we had no choice but to look in unexpected places. For example, a cookbook that happened to have a little anecdote about a woman from 1917 or a homemaker's guide, or in later works like uh uh YouTube videos that were posted by garment workers in Egypt. So we had to think broadly and imaginatively about what those sources, where those sources could live.

By the same token, we always try and treat the source material with integrity, that we're not um inventing source material, that rather when we do assemble firsthand testimony or secondhand testimony or photographs, etc., that we are we're really mining the source material to see what stories are either right there in plain sight or or buried a little bit deeper, uh, and going beyond a surface narrative.

[11:51] Jennifer Apple: How do you find these things, or how do you know to look there, or how do you get curious enough to be open to finding these things in weird places?

[12:01] Melissa Moschitto: A lot of curiosity, a lot of willingness to go down the rabbit hole, whether that is the Googling rabbit hole or the JSTOR academic, you know, site, or going to the New York Public Library to see like what is actually there in the archives that you wouldn't be able to take out from a bookstore. Um and just chasing that initial uh seed right of an idea uh that is you gotta have that drive I think that that that's what has driven us.

[12:28] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I think the reason I ask about all of this is because as we begin to like get into the weeds about it I I've had a lot of questions as of late about the overlap of storytelling truth integrity having oneself be seen in something authentically honestly while also being able to share something that is not about oneself in a similar vein where do we put weight for these things how do we show up as creatives in a way that is truly empathetic and also recognizing that the human condition is very complicated and nuanced.

[13:32] Melissa Moschitto: And so for me this intersection of source material or being curious and having this lens of curiosity to go and mine things that are perhaps hidden is part of learning and unlearning things about ourselves as humans.

[14:10] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: I have so many things going through my head right now, honestly. I mean, I think this is a fascinating question.

[14:17] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: And I also think that it's a very difficult question. And here's why, right?

[14:34] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: So is it valid? Can you replicate it? Are you using the scientific method to kind of uncover the scientific truths and proof and evidence and all these things, right? But we also know that if we look back at the history of science, a lot of these processes and findings and research were not without their biases, right? Like we can't separate them from kind of like their historical context, people who were doing the work, you know, and it has all these impacts on the research. There are numerous examples of research that was considered to be sound science that has now been debunked, right? And we see those examples in anthropology when we think about like craniology or like, you know, all of these things that were used to, for example, create like racial hierarchies, like if we're thinking about those examples.

And so I think that part of this process that you're talking about, and it's interesting too, I think that we've been talking about it in The Anthropologists as well, like some of these same questions, but I think it's really a process of asking ourselves key questions to help kind of get to as much of a truth as we can. And what I mean by that is, you know, there have been numerous examples just in this project where we're like reading an article, and then someone's like, who wrote this? You know, and this doesn't seem correct. Like, we need more context so that we can understand like where are the gaps in this like information, and these are, you know, from scientific journals, publications or whatever, and yet even as observers of the research and people who are reading it, the gaps began to kind of like jump out at us as we're asking these questions.

And so for me, that's an interesting piece of the connection between research and storytelling, because as we dive into the archive or do the research, there are these gaps that inevitably exist, right? And I think that even as an anthropologist or a researcher, as we're like writing up things, there's a moment in which we're trying to fill the gaps, and it's not necessarily like making up a story, but we have to kind of use the information that we have at our disposal to kind of craft the narrative that we think is jumping out at us from the source material, and quite frankly, it feels very similar to what The Anthropologists theater troupe is trying to do, which has been a fascinating experience for me, as someone who's like doing the work in the academy and then seeing it happening on the theater side on the creative side and being like, wow, like there are these similarities.

[17:35] Melissa Moschitto: Well, I just I was just gonna say the gaps are what is so exciting, and that's where we love to play. And very often in a theatrical context, the gaps are where the imagination comes in, right? And where the storytelling comes in. Still using the guideposts that the research to date has revealed to us. And the gaps also can teach us so many things throughout the process because we're constantly asking, okay, so what research is missing? Whose voice hasn't been represented? And also what does that mean for our creative process in terms of who are the artists that are in the room? Who is not in the room, why are they not in the room? Can we get them into the room? And I think also asking the audience to go along for the ride and encounter the gaps with us and embrace that complexity and ambiguity is for me, that's a really exciting place to be.

[18:54] Jennifer Apple: Ooh, okay. There's so much here that I want to ask and delve into. Hayela, you talked about these questions that we need to ask when we are delving into material, when we are doing this research, when we are taking a look at these perhaps academic things, who wrote them, blah, blah, blah. Are there specific questions that you have found to be the ones that are like non-negotiable? Always ask these questions. And then obviously, per project, per subject, there are different ones that you would filter in.

[19:26] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah, I mean, I think that for me, I mean, some of the ones I've already mentioned, kind of like when was this written, like what's the context of the piece, who wrote it. I mean, I think that those the kind of circumstances that surround the research can really shift and change how the research was done, what the outcomes were, you know, so those questions are really important. And I think too, especially from like my although I am an anthropologist, my concentration was African diaspora studies. So there's like this training around like, you know, black studies and things like that. And so there are these other questions about like power and like the social conditions and like, you know, surrounding the moment in time, the history, like I think you have to kind of take all of those pieces together as you're trying to understand the narrative that is being drawn in front of you from this source material.

And I think that in the absence of asking yourselves these types of questions, sometimes you can miss like really glaring things that are what I would say maybe quite obvious, you know, and sometimes those absences, well, not sometimes they can be really egregious and really harmful. And so I think that what I found, and I'm not sure if everyone would agree with this, but you know, I feel like there comes a point where we have to be gentle with ourselves in the sense that like we may not get all of our questions answered, or that you know, our analysis may not be spot on, but by going in with a particular kind of toolbox and tool set to do our best to ensure that our critical analysis is sharp, yeah, I think is a really good starting place.

And I think that it helps to avoid some of the things that I think you were kind of hinting at, Jennifer, where you were talking about these moments of like you didn't say fake news, but you know, kind of hinted you know, like what is truth, and can I just believe this because I think it and you know, and I think that like having that sort of toolkit that supports kind of critical thinking, I think is really important.

[21:52] Melissa Moschitto: This feeds directly into what you were saying, Melissa, about the gaps and how in these gaps is actually the space where the stuff percolates and the questions live and the curiosity really lies. And arguably that's where art that's never been done can be done because it's in those spaces. I'm curious for the process when you find yourself in the gaps of the things, and you're like, ooh, we're seeing that these people aren't here, we're seeing that we cannot find these things. Clearly, there is some sort of something going on over here. That's information, and that is also helpful. When you discover something, say like that, how do you use that in a critical capacity without losing the creativity?

[22:49] Melissa Moschitto: I think you know certainly we have those moments in the devising process, the collective aha moment when we've found something that rewrites the narrative for us a little bit that reveals something new that we can all say, oh, this is this was never evident before, but now we can see how this is at play, like all around the story. Or even moments when someone has challenged the source material in rehearsal and had a totally, you know, completely different interpretation than I did. It's so exciting to have my assumptions upended that way. And there have absolutely been shows in which we are pointing to the gaps or the uncertainty, that we are questioning the material as we are, you know, in performance. It's this kind of pedagogical at the same time as performative. And sometimes that can really work to our advantage. Maybe sometimes it hasn't. We just we try and get better the next time with the next show.

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[25:49] Melissa Moschitto: Obviously, with devising, it's something that's never been done before. That's the whole point. Do you ever feel that when you've put something up on its feet and you've chosen a lens or you've chosen a direction or you've chosen to focus on said gap here and what we can learn here? You've chosen something that there's guilt around not focusing on something else or recognizing that there was a limit to the process or the capacity for people's research. How do you navigate recognizing, kind of going back to what you were saying, Hayela, of like there are gonna be these glaring things that maybe you can or cannot answer? And yet, in a process like theater, if you have a I have a show that needs to go on at this point, you have to have something up by then. How do you marry that?

[26:42] Melissa Moschitto: We were just speaking about this, and it's a conversation that we're going to continue tonight as well, especially when you're in this early stage of devising. And just to give maybe just like a little bit more of a definition about devising, although I think as many people and companies that engage in devised theater, there are that many different definitions. For us, as we've been talking about, we start with a topic or a body of research, a topic to research, and a provocation, this driving question that is also informing the kind of source material that we're looking for and becomes that anchor point for us to always check back in with. And we are literally building the show in the devising process as we generate content.

So our joke is that the script comes last. Yeah. So not the stage manager usually doesn't like hearing that joke, but it's true. And so as we are right now in this early stage of investigation, and yet we are going to be showing the work at some point. Yes, we do have to make a decision about what we're going to share with the audience. And that's when it just becomes even so much more important about what are our intentions? Like, what are we trying to learn from the audience, especially in the early stages, to let us know, oh, we need to keep going down this path. Or the character, you know, through line that we thought was so fascinating, nobody actually really cared about that, or no one was surprised about that.

So it does allow for us to be contemplating, recalculating, and yet you I don't I hesitate to say the word lose, but sometimes it does feel like that. Like you lose something once you make a decision to go down this path here that you've had to let go of an idea that could maybe be fruitful, but you've had to preference things.

[29:13] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. That's a hard process that I feel like many artists navigate generally of what takes priority in different seasons of one's life or in different seasons of one's creative process. You know, we can all wear many, many hats, but it's like sometimes you are for myself, like sometimes I'm the actor hat, and sometimes I'm the coach hat, and sometimes I'm the podcast host hat, and sometimes I'm my doggy mommy hat, like you know, like what is what is taking the priority? And there's always yeah, a loss or a cost in some capacity to making that decision, but we are only human and we only have so much capacity. And so, Haile, I'm curious for you when you're watching this type of creation, or when you're seeing people really attempting to bring forth research, or really um going with a very distinctive integrity of trying to storytell.

How do you feel from the anthropological perspective of recognizing that there's like always a part of the human condition that is somehow going to be, I don't know if the words like neglected or yeah, the lost or at a cost? Like what is what is our obligation, maybe as storytellers in that.

[30:34] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question. Um I think for me, though, I think it comes back to what I said before, really recognizing our limits and like being okay with that, you know, and knowing Is it okay? I mean, like, I think that's the thing that I grapple with. Like, is it okay for us? I mean, like, it has to be okay because time we only have so much of it, and things have to get done, and there's also you have to make a decision at some point. But is that okay that there's something that's going to be compromised or some dynamic or part of history or human conditions that are not going to be elevated? Yeah. I mean, I think that it is okay. I do. Um, only because though, I mean, one, we can't really do much about it because we have limits.

But I also feel like, you know, at least at least just like watching this process. I'm like, there are hopefully like more opportunities to maybe, you know, explore something one time and explore something else another time. I also think I think what's the most beautiful to use lack of a better word, like about kind of especially the type of issue that the anthropologist theater group is like trying to grapple with for this project. I mean, we're talking about a real world experience. We're talking about real historical trauma that still exists today, you know, like we're talking about people's real lived experiences, right? Um, and I think that what's beautiful about like art making is that I feel like it's it has like a ripple effect in a lot of ways, too, you know.

[32:24] Jennifer Apple: Tell me more about what that is. This is why I would hope would happen for a project like this. But what we may have to make a very specific, and I say we, you know, I'm serving a very particular role in this process, but let's say the group makes it makes a creative decision and puts it on the stage. I think that because of the gaps, because of the topic, because of really even the really thoughtful approach that I've seen Melissa and the actors work through, I do think it's inevitable that the audience will have a number of questions. I think that the show most likely will impact each audience member in a really different way, right? And so each interpretation, each experience of the creative piece then goes out into the world and potentially does something else, you know?

And so I think that we have to think about it that way. I also think, and I don't know if this is like going back to another question, but like what I love about creating art from the research perspective is that I think it does work that maybe research research that I do can't do. This is what I mean by that. So as a researcher who also is trying to work with integrity, you know, I might look at my research and say, This is what the data tells me, this is what the evidence tells me, and this is what I don't know. I'm not gonna make any leaps, I'm not gonna make things up. Like this is what I see, and this is what I don't see, right? But I think in a creative space, you're able to do some of the things that Melissa was talking about.

So, like these are the gaps, and we're going to point to them, right? And we we've been talking about soundscapes because I'm obsessed with music and sound. Yeah. And we had this conversation in one of the sessions about when to use sound and when not. So there are circumstances when the silence is loud. Right, right. So here's a gap. What work is that? Just pointing to the gap. What is that doing? Yeah. But then I feel like in a creative space, you're able to say, this is a gap, and this is this is maybe what the source material is telling us, and we're gonna explore that. And I think that that in a creative space, you're able to do that in a really kind of like transformative way that I think that maybe like I can't do purely from a research side.

And it's it's almost like um this is from some Black Studies researchers, but like the opportunity to have like a radical imagination, you know, in those gaps is really powerful. And so while we are limited in time and you know, space and these other things, I think that the power of creation really does allow us to expand much further than ourselves, even in those really um tough decisions about what we're focusing on. I think the work is able to kind of like travel in a different way that I think is a bit that kind of helps us be um more okay with having to make those decisions. At least that's my hope. I don't know, Melissa, what you think about that, but that that's kind of how I feel about how it plays out.

[35:37] Melissa Moschitto: That definitely resonates for me, even just reflecting upon past shows that we've built where the act of the researching and the conversations as an artistic ensemble and this exploration does make changes. It makes changes to us as individuals, right? So we're not going to leave the process looking at the world in the same way. Our eyes are all being opened to sort of different factors and facets. And so that is gratifying and exciting, just thinking about how the work lives on through the artists beyond the scope of the performance. And I'm always hoping that the performance does not end when we have the curtain call, right? Or when lights come up and audience leaves. I want them to be bothered by what they've seen or excited and to want to know more.

Uh something else that came up for me, I think, in terms of, you know, making the choices. Uh, and it's this is just thinking about when we when we do think about what we're putting on stage in those choices and how we're utilizing the source material is are we are we perpetuating harm? Right. And I think that is potentially a bigger uh or like a more useful question for us to ask. Cause I feel it too, Jennifer, of like, I just I need a little more time. I need two more weeks of rehearsal. I need another grant so that we can keep going. And there's always going to be creative sparks that we can't fan into flames, right?

[37:38] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah. Um and then if we can also look at the work that we are putting out and making sure that we're not uh making harmful choices with our interpretation, that has become a really critical question for us as we're making making these plays.

[37:59] Melissa Moschitto: Yeah. It makes me think about impact, like intent versus impact. And you could have incredible intentions around something and still your impact is harming people. And you know, this is a larger question about like human beings, really, but also like our responsibility with art in telling stories that have perhaps never been told before or seen in this light. Um, and it also makes me think about art being subjective, right? Like that is the whole point. The painter who like made that white painting. That painting fills me with when I say anger and rage that I don't know anywhere else in my body, I'm like visceral rage. And people are like, well, they were the first one who did it and tried to monetize it.

And it's like, I understand that. But for me, like, how is that like art in that for me is maybe like the the FU statement of like I was the first one versus like this is me literally knowing this craft in and out. And I don't know why it makes me so mad, but it there's a room in the diabeacon. I actually don't know if it's still there, but like it's just a bunch of white paintings. And it's like, I need to walk out. Like this is not filling me with any you're making me think of the play by Yasmina Reza, yes called art. Yeah, which totally taps into that range. But it's that question too, right? Like what we're making is subjective, or what is our responsibility, or what is art, right? And so this idea that we are creating these things and they're coming out into the world, especially when you're devising work and you have a responsibility to the research that you've been using to then shed light onto that, and arguably, many people will have many different feelings as they walk out, as they should, because we're all human beings with different life experiences coming into this experience from different places, right?

But I think for me, as I'm hearing you both talk about it in this way, it's recognizing that as long as one's intention is truly about lifting something off the page with as much care and attention towards not causing more harm as much as possible, in a way that remains open and curious to the understanding that there are probably things that still need to be sussed out, explored, analyzed, that perhaps in another iteration, these questions now need to be answered, and doing so in a way that doesn't feel final, which I would imagine is the whole point of being an anthropologist too of like nothing is ever complete because you're always going to be discovering more and adding more into one's research to then continue expanding what people know about a topic.

[40:50] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: You know? You know, you maybe think of the word additive, that the that we're engaged in an additive pursuit that if we didn't get to tell every story that we wanted to in this first draft of the show, or even in the final draft of this particular show, that the aim is we will have an opportunity to reveal the next story, yeah, and continue adding to the dialogue. And even if it's not you, perhaps somebody else in the audience is like, oh, this I never thought about it this way. Let me, and then as you were saying, Haile, about like the ripple effect of it, where yes, it lives on in the artists who have created it and the people who are in the room, and the responsibility of art, if we're going back to like responsibility, is for us to continue engaging in the conversation, hopefully beyond the scope of what you see just in the short period of time that you are engaging directly with the art.

[41:51] Melissa Moschitto: Absolutely. I do agree with that. There is one thing though, I'm it's this, I think it's a question for you two in some ways, because I think that I don't know. I think it's a slippery slope to between being like, Well, if my intent is good and I'm going through these processes where I'm asking these questions, then it's all good. And I think that what's potentially missing from that that maybe we should call out is like, what is accountability look like in responsibility, you know. And so I know what that looks like from a research standpoint, but from an artistic standpoint, where as you said, like everything's subjective, and like how do you grapple with accountability? Yeah. Maybe you did everything you thought was right and you still cause harm, or you know, and how do you what is accountability accountability look like in a creative space? I think is for me, y'all might have answers. I'm very curious to hear what that looks like, but I think that that's a piece that's also really important.

[42:46] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah. So that those conversations don't get shut down because well, I thought I did everything that I should have done, and I really was acting from a place of integrity and thoughtfulness or whatever. What's the mechanism for accountability in that in that process? I think that's kind of what I was asking earlier, and you said it in a far more eloquent way about like the guilt in it. You know, it's like when you've decided to go down this path and things whatever comes out, like how do you sit with the guilt? But I think accountability is a better word. Just to acknowledge that this is a hugely important question for the if I if I may, for the American theater field at large.

[43:28] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Uh, and I it would behoove us to find some really clear answers. I don't know right now. I mean, I appreciate the question, and right now I'm thinking, I don't know that I have a model for that. Well, I don't think it's built. I think that's part of the problem. It's like it's not built into the systems that are currently in place that we have in any capacity for any of it. This is the next big question to be grappling with. Um certainly different ways that we've approached things in within the anthropologist. And I'm sure there have been times in throughout our 15 year history that we have unintentionally caused harm. Uh in a more recent creative process, we brought in an outside facilitator who knew the work of the company, but didn't um wasn't part of the creative process at that time for that particular show, and had a listening session with me not being a part of it, me as director slash artistic director, and giving space to the artist to sort of name if anything wasn't sitting well with them in a in the process, both as process and as you know, the art that was starting to emerge, uh, and also have a hopefully a a safer space than had I been there for that conversation to sort of name their concerns about the how source material was being used or what was missing. Uh and I'm very grateful that we were able to engage in that process.

[45:18] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: And the outcomes of the conversation were shared with me. And that has again like shifted um further informed how we engage in research and investigation now. So I think I I have to remain open to learning something new with every process that we engage in and all the steps along the way.

[45:44] Melissa Moschitto: Yeah. I think as I was listening to you speak, and also just like thinking about that word accountability, for me, it's a lot of recognizing that I know really nothing for myself. You know, I like I and that I will mess up a lot. And that as long as I can own when I mess up and the impact that that might happen on an individual scale rather than like an you know industry scope of things and take accountability where I can for my mistakes and the apologies or the rescinding or the intentionally like putting myself in spaces to learn more and learn from others who know more than I do. I think there's a matter for me, it's about um constantly checking myself and my biases, of which every single human being has, um, and owning my lived experience as its own thing and not projecting that as much as I possibly can onto other people and holding space for other lived experiences and other human beings.

[47:02] Melissa Moschitto: So for me, I don't have all the answers, and the more I continue learning, the more I realize I literally know absolutely nothing, and continuously trying to learn and unlearn is, I don't know, I guess at the moment, my form of accountability for myself at least. That that word unlearn, I feel like that has been one of our driving forces as a theater company that started with this idea of unlearning history.

[47:37] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah. The first show we ever did before we officially became the anthropologist was a show where we were really taking a closer look at Christopher Columbus and looking at his diaries and writings of his contemporaries. Back in 2007 or so. And it and it was about like unlearning the history that we had all been taught as American school children.

[48:01] Melissa Moschitto: And the other thing that's coming up for me is this idea of agency. And that was another founding impetus for the company. That here I was working with all these incredible women artists, women actors, and not seeing places for them to be on stage or not seeing places that were compelling and dynamic and complex. And in our own way, in our own space, rewriting histories and bringing new histories to the stage that hadn't already been played out.

[48:42] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: So I think starting from that place of performers having agency, performers being able to craft their own character, being able to have input into a show has has then extended itself beyond that as you know, full individuals engaged in an artistic process. And hopefully, with each show, we're getting better at creating the circumstances for artists to have agency in a process to name when there are concerns about how we're treating source material or interpreting source material or how we are in a cre engaged in a creative process.

[49:30] Melissa Moschitto: And I think the other piece of accountability comes through action. Like I'm thinking about our motto where art meets action, that was born out of a desire for the audience to be provoked to action after the show. It also means that every time we learn something about our process during the creation of a show, that we especially the times that we learn that we haven't done something well or that there has been harm caused, that there's an action associated with that, that there is a very tangible change to the process, to our policies as theater as a theater company.

[50:25] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yeah.

[50:26] Melissa Moschitto: Yeah. It reminds me of, you know, a lot of, I guess the phrase would be like lip service. You know, it's like during certain months that, you know, corporations decide to come out and just be like, we do these things, or we stand by these things, and it's like, when are you doing this for the other 11 months of the year? And how are you integrating the this into your workplace environment? And how are you holding yourselves accountable? I'm really grateful to at least name that um from a social responsibility perspective.

[50:55] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: That as we create, as we step into spaces where we are creating, whether it's in a devising space or taking somebody else's already done work and putting it into our bodies to storytell, um, that the idea of action and responsibility, not just being accountable internally but also externally, um is something that I love naming. So thank you for that.

[51:21] Melissa Moschitto: As we begin winding down our time, is there anything that is on both of your hearts that you want to share?

[51:27] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: I think for me coming into this space, and uh like I'm very strange in that I don't call myself an artist necessarily, but I have you know performed over the years and you know, do make art, you know, for whatever reason. And um, but it has been such a wonderful experience working with the theater troupe. And I think it just reiterated for me the power of art for change, yeah, whether that's you know, systemic change or you know, to share information or to change hearts, like, and this is something that I know.

[52:09] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: I mean, we can look past in time and see um the centrality of art to like social movements and all of these things. Like this is what you know, we know, but um, you know, talking about the topic that the play is talking about and seeing the process, I just I just feel really passionate about the transformative power of art.

[52:32] Melissa Moschitto: Yeah. Um, to tell stories that have a real impact. And I just um I think it's really important that we have a number of ways to interact and engage and um like understand the world around us. And I think that art is key to that.

[52:50] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: And so that's been really heavy on my heart. And like I said, it just was kind of like glaring at me at being in this process. Um, and it's just been amazing.

[53:01] Melissa Moschitto: So that's the thing that I would share.

[53:04] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: I appreciate hearing that so much, and I'm thinking about um how restorative it is felt to be in a rehearsal studio with the dynamic group of artists that we've assembled for this project, especially three years into the pandemic, which I now I know now isn't considered a pandemic, but we're obviously like still very much feeling the ramifications of that.

[53:38] Melissa Moschitto: And when it feels really challenging to continue making theater from a producing point of view, logistical point of view, and it there's a lot of heavy lifting that goes on to like make this work possible. Every time I get into space with other artists, I'm just like it so feel lighter, and I'm so grateful too that the artists are coming together and um really working in a vulnerable um space that makes that transformation possible, and so it will be the challenge, but the excitement of being able to then share that with an audience.

[54:28] Jennifer Apple: Yeah um thank you for going on this journey with me uh thank you for being brave enough to like tackle these really large words that get thrown around that I think are important for us to name and begin to engage with um for anybody who wants to support the work of the theater for anybody who wants to get in touch with either of you um we can go one at a time uh in terms of uh you know collaboration questions further understanding what is the best way within both of your boundaries to reach out and um work collaborate and the all the above.

[54:28] Melissa Moschitto: Well I'll just say that you can find out more information about the anthropologists at theanthropologists.org and um I think we buried the lead in that the play that we're currently working on is uh looking at the deep history of midwifery in the United States and also uh maternal health outcomes and inequities uh that play is currently called Axes Herbs and Satchels uh and we are yeah we're on the beginning of that journey and we'll have opportunities um to be sharing that outside of the rehearsal room very soon so you can find us at our website and on Instagram and Facebook and occasionally Twitter for now.

[56:03] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: And Patreon. If you're intrigued by this work and you think it sounds valuable, you could become a Patreon subscriber. You can go to my website, Hayelakole.com. That's probably the easiest. There is like a contact form. It'll come to my email. Learn about the work that I've done. I even have some of my art stuff on there. My photographies on my website.

[56:23] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Yes. Um, that's just my little slide thing for fun. But um, yeah, you can contact me through there. I am on Instagram, but you don't have to come. It's probably easier through the website.

[56:34] Jennifer Apple: Thank you both so so so much for your time and for this exploration and for the work that you're doing. Um, I think it's really valuable to be dissecting and looking deeper and going to the research and being curious and telling stories um in ways that have not been done before.

[56:56] Dr. Haile Eshe Cole: Um so thank you for going on this journey with me.

[57:00] Melissa Moschitto: Thank you for inviting this conversation.

[57:02] Jennifer Apple: Yes, thank you. If you liked this episode, please like, rate, follow, and most importantly, review us. This allows us to continue reaching other ears and minds and humans who want to be engaging in these kinds of conversations.

[57:20] Jennifer Apple: If you did not like this episode, just let it all slide. If you are not yet doing so, please follow us on Instagram at Empowered Artist Collective, on TikTok at Empowered Artist Collective, more on our website at empowered artistcollective.com. If you want to be kept in the loop, we have a link to get on our email list in the show notes. And if you are seeking some cute, fun, awesome merchandise for yourself or your friends. We also have that link in the show notes as well.

[57:44] Jennifer Apple: As always, I am so endlessly grateful that you keep on coming back, and we will be back again next week. Until then.