This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:02] Jennifer Apple: Hello, welcome to this week's episode of the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast.

[0:06] Jennifer Apple: My name is Jennifer Apple. And this week I bring back guest Joanna Carpenter to the podcast at a time when there is a lot of noise and a lot of overwhelm and a lot of stress and burnout and insert word here. Coming back to oneself, learning to trust oneself, learning to prioritize oneself is of the utmost importance so that we can continue growing and expanding and finding stillness. Joanna shares her journey of cultivating self-trust and how it has transformed her life, emphasizing the importance of acknowledging past mistakes as a path to growth and personal liberation. We unpack the lens of curiosity and self-acceptance as a way to navigate the complexities of life and find possibility in the gray areas. Plus, we explore the connection between this self-trust and the body, learning how to prioritize oneself and embracing stillness as a source of strength. Enjoy.

[1:09] Jennifer Apple: Joanna Carpenter, hi.

[1:13] Joanna Carpenter: That was the best start ever.

[1:14] Jennifer Apple: Hi, Jennifer.

[1:16] Joanna Carpenter: Joanna, you are the first returnee we have had on this gorgeous podcast.

[1:24] Joanna Carpenter: And um, anyway, this wasn't like meant to be like, how do you feel? But just wanted to let you know.

[1:29] Joanna Carpenter: I'm really honored and excited to be the first returnee because I'm obsessed with this podcast. So when you asked me, I got very excited.

[1:37] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, I mean, before we even dive, I'm just like, I was like, I'm excited to talk to you. I'm clearly excited to talk to you. Um, for anybody who didn't listen to your first episode or doesn't know who you are. Who are you today?

[1:47] Joanna Carpenter: Who am I today? Whomst am I today? So uh my name's Joanna Carpenter. I use she, her pronouns. I am an actor and uh I'm an artist. I'm a creative person. And today I am extra contemplative and feeling a little spicy and also um feeling a little liberated. Maybe that's lending to the spice. That's that's who I am today.

[2:18] Jennifer Apple: I love. I love how you had to like take a moment to be like, wait, actually though, let me not just by rote say the things that I am. You know, I think we get into that routine. I know for myself at least, people are like, what do you do? Who are you? And you're like, I do this and I do this and it is, and you're like, let's like roll back for a second and be like, actually, maybe I maybe I'm not what I want to tell you.

[2:42] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, like why do I have to roll out my CV every time I see someone? Like it happens enough in person. Oh, who are you? What do you do? And I'm like, uh, I'm bored now.

[2:50] Joanna Carpenter: Literally of myself.

[2:52] Jennifer Apple: Of myself. Like ask me something else.

[2:55] Joanna Carpenter: Exactly. Unreal.

[2:57] Jennifer Apple: I love this. I love this idea of liberation being tied to spice.

[3:03] Joanna Carpenter: That's cute. Is that a new thing?

[3:05] Joanna Carpenter: I get spicy when I feel like I'm not oppressed by my own uh choices or by other people.

[3:10] Jennifer Apple: Oh, is that how that works?

[3:13] Joanna Carpenter: For me today, that's how it works. Like when I feel a sense of ease, I like I get extra spicy. And I'm just like, I just think that's yeah, it's such an interesting thing. I think if I were to for myself think about liberation or freedom, I think I it for me, it lends itself more to like grounding and maybe quiet.

[3:35] Joanna Carpenter: So I love the counter of spice.

[3:38] Joanna Carpenter: I will get quiet too. Like when I feel a particular sense of ease, which I kind of have lately, I do feel like it clears a pathway to really feel the ground under my feet and to breathe. Like breath is very often the first thing to go when I feel contained, constrained, straining, pressure, uh, stress, anxiety, whatever it is. And so there definitely is that, but usually the final product is like spicy Joe when the feet are on the ground.

[4:08] Jennifer Apple: I love. No, I think that's my favorite, Joanna personally.

[4:13] Joanna Carpenter: Spicy Joanna.

[4:14] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, because then I think I can add my own version of spice to the mix, which I think it's a different brand of spice.

[4:21] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah.

[4:21] Jennifer Apple: But that's also delicious.

[4:23] Joanna Carpenter: Thank you. I said I was gonna say that, like, you know, like when you cook and you're like, maybe I should throw some cumin in here, and you're like, but I already put some rosemary, and you're like, you know what? Today it'll work, or it won't.

[4:36] Joanna Carpenter: And then it'll say it will work, exactly, and it'll be something tastes like anyway.

[4:42] Jennifer Apple: I'm curious. This already feels really zesty, and I'm really interested. You know, I'm curious because there's no set agenda. I gravitate towards you as a human being and as a friend and um an artist because of your ability to lead with empathy, your ability to listen, and also your ability to be introspective, self-aware, and the desire to continuously grow and expand within yourself and the communities that you surround yourself in or choose to be a part of.

[5:27] Joanna Carpenter: And so I'm curious for you since the last episode, which feels like years ago.

[5:34] Joanna Carpenter: It wasn't that long. But I'm curious for you. I mean, as maybe it was, I don't know.

[5:40] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[5:40] Joanna Carpenter: A lifetime at least. Dark times.

[5:43] Joanna Carpenter: At least for you since then, what have you felt to be some emotional qualities that you have felt you are owning more in your artistic journeys, in your human journeys, and perhaps which of those things have you felt you've cultivated across both and aren't questioning as much?

[6:07] Joanna Carpenter: First off, adore you. I gravitate to you for all of those reasons. So thank you for the generosity.

[6:15] Joanna Carpenter: That's true. It's well, and also I always feel like whenever you and I get into like a deep soul conversation, heart conversation, philosophical conversation, that there's just kind of like a an opening of a shell that is um very it's more rare than I wish it was, but you're one of those people where like the way that you think and the way that you dig in and your the way your curiosity and um you know your ability to really like be laser focused on a thing, on a concept and on an idea, um, is it makes for like really mutual um heart opening and and respect. So I just appreciate that.

[6:57] Jennifer Apple: I appreciate you.

[6:58] Joanna Carpenter: I appreciate you. Thank you. In answer to your question, the first thing that comes up is trust. Um I think the the trust of self is a really like underrated victory. Um, especially for those of us who come from backgrounds where we are taught that we cannot trust ourselves, we cannot trust our instincts, we cannot trust our art, we cannot trust our impulses, we cannot trust our sense of self.

[7:28] Joanna Carpenter: Um comparing how I feel now to the deficit that I had felt up until now is really I'm very proud of the trust that I have in myself now.

[7:43] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[7:44] Joanna Carpenter: And the impact, the direct impact that it has had on my art, on my creativity, how I show up in the world, how I set boundaries, um, and what I choose to align with, what I choose to build, what I choose to create, um is it's you know those things that like you don't really have language for, but they resonate right in your heart center, and you might not have language for it yet, but you just know that it is the right thing, it is the right choice, and like everybody else be damned if you don't like it. That's not my problem. It's like that kind of like vibration. Um so trust, I think is the self-trust is the biggest biggest thing, I think, since the last time we spoke.

[8:29] Joanna Carpenter: It actually it's funny because like I don't this is weird, but I don't like thinking about that last episode, not because it wasn't a great episode, not because it wasn't joyful, like being able to be in that space with you, but because I think that time was so painful that I almost shy away from it, you know, and so I'm constantly, for better or worse, like looking towards the new, like what new conversation that is rooted in awareness of the past, but doesn't necessarily look at the past too hard.

[8:57] Joanna Carpenter: Um that's how I'm treating a lot of like these more intimate conversations.

[9:01] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. It's interesting that you say that about the looking back on that episode being like painful. And I think it's an interesting question as humans, really, about for me, I grapple with this, but like the idea of learning from our mistakes or like regret about things that we've done or positions that we found ourselves in, which sometimes we don't even have like the choice, and we just like are in it.

[9:27] Jennifer Apple: Um, and how we can feel a certain way towards these things that we've experienced, or like a time period that we've been a part of, and not want to acknowledge that that was the thing that we were a part of because it was so painful or we didn't like it, or whatever. Or you can look at it as like, well, if I hadn't had to go through that, then I wouldn't be where I am today.

[9:51] Joanna Carpenter: And I think maybe that's why I I mean, I won't get a tattoo because I'm very Jewish, and that's a whole other thing. But I think about like a version of my like 20-year-old self who would get a tattoo. And it's like what I would have put on my body in my 20s, I would not resonate with at all with where I am now.

[10:09] Joanna Carpenter: And the idea of like looking at something on my body on the regular as like the reminder of where I like would be really for me, I think, triggering in some capacity. But I do see the flip side of like, no, I see this thing that I put on my body. Again, this is an example, but like I put on my body in my 20s, and now this is a reminder of where I've come from and now how much I've grown since then and actually keeps a barometer of one's growth.

[10:32] Joanna Carpenter: I guess I just want to offer that like, yes, perhaps it's painful. Yes, perhaps it's a version of yourself that is not where you are now, and you've moved and grown beyond it, but to look at those times that we have documented as artists and be able to actually see in real time growth and movement is kind of like a really wonderful blessing, I think, about being able to see it and not just arbitrarily think like, no, I think I've grown. It's like, no, no, no, I can listen to this version of myself and not even recognize her.

[11:06] Joanna Carpenter: I would agree with that.

[11:06] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, 100%.

[11:07] Joanna Carpenter: 100%.

[11:08] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[11:09] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, that's a really good point.

[11:11] Jennifer Apple: Fine.

[11:14] Joanna Carpenter: You're wrong.

[11:15] Jennifer Apple: All of which no, I'm not trying to be right. I'm just saying I'm just trying to give you some grace and recognizing that like that is a part of your story.

[11:22] Jennifer Apple: And in order to have gotten to where you are now, that is a huge part of what you needed where you needed to be or getting through that or whatever it is in order for you to have the perspective and arguably the trust that you now have in yourself that perhaps you hadn't cultivated in that same way.

[11:40] Joanna Carpenter: Which is a really cool thing that you were vulnerable enough then and now you're being vulnerable again now.

[11:46] Joanna Carpenter: And now if we keep bringing you back every single time you'll keep having these milestones of like I am now a different person and look at that.

[11:52] Joanna Carpenter: Just a renegade meat sack with feelings.

[11:59] Jennifer Apple: Renegade meat sack with feelings.

[12:02] Joanna Carpenter: Oh it's going in the Instagram bio immediately.

[12:05] Jennifer Apple: I really hope it does.

[12:06] Joanna Carpenter: I really hope it does.

[12:07] Joanna Carpenter: And anybody who listens to this episode will slide into the DMs and be like, I don't see it.

[12:20] Joanna Carpenter: So self-trust. How does that manifest itself in your body? Oh God, breathing. Kind of going back to what I said before, it's so ever since I was little, the first thing to go when I feel myself start to close up because of trauma or anxiety or stress or fear, or sometimes even excitement, depending on what it's excitement for. The first thing to go is my breath, right? And I notice that there is a full body sense of not release, but maybe more relief with an F, where it feels like a clearing has parted and there is a pathway to air. There's a pathway to breathing. And I think when we, especially as artists and as performers, when we stop straining, stop feeling like we have to strain to prove to chase, to present, then we are able to breathe, and we are able to step into who we really are and trust that whatever that moment is, whether it's an audition or it's, you know, when you're actually performing on stage or, you know, whatever it might be.

So it's just it's just it's literally just breathing, which you and I have talked about this before. The simplicity of breathing is so often forgotten. But we do these body scans and we see how certain things manifest. Like for me, stress and anxiety and depression and fear and all those things actually manifests as what feels like period cramps, where like in the center of my body of my lower body, where you know it's literally a wellspring for life, right? There's so much pain there. So I'm always trying in and going, how can I get myself breathing again? What can I do for myself that pulls me back to that self-trust that reminds me that like I'm okay?

[14:23] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. It's interesting for me to hear different folks. I've started to ask this question if people have been like listening linearly to these episodes. Like when people talk about these feeling stuff, I'm always curious about where it lives. Cause I think we have this preconceived idea that it lives in the same place for every like, oh, of course. Well, if I'm feeling it here and it holds here, then everybody's doing it. It's just yeah, I think it's a beautiful reminder that we are all individuals who feel things differently, and that is all like a beautiful thing. Whereas, yeah, for me, it's all like my neck, my upper back traps, also low back, just like back. It's all in my back.

[15:00] Joanna Carpenter: Front center belly.

[15:03] Jennifer Apple: You know, I don't know again, I don't know somatics in this kind of way, but for me that's fascinating to think about somebody who feels it in their front versus somebody who feels it in their back. And again, there's no right or wrong about it. I'm just, you know, thinking about bodies and how that probably ties into something that's just that's just I don't know, worth noting.

[15:28] Joanna Carpenter: Keeping the score, yeah. That book is so good. Have you read that?

[15:32] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. I have the body keeps a score for anybody who's listening. And I think just the once is all I need to read it. And you know, there are certain elements of it that have been debunked for lack of a better phrase, but I think the core premise is very, very correct, at least for me. I won't speak to anybody else's experience, but for me it clarified a lot of things, and it's one of those books, you know, like we have those books where we come back to over and over and over again. And then there's other books where I'm like, just the ones is fine, and this can go have a life on someone else's bookshelf. I'm good.

[16:07] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. Well, it's really it's an it's not a light read.

[16:11] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, not pre-bedtime reading, which is what I discovered.

[16:15] Joanna Carpenter: No, although maybe one might argue that that actually would put somebody to sleep because it's so heavy.

[16:21] Jennifer Apple: Um so technical.

[16:22] Joanna Carpenter: That's what I mean. Where it's just very thick, really thick. I think those are the kind of books now that I'm trying to put on tape so that it put them in my ear, and I don't have to like sit with it, I can commute with it maybe, and I don't have to. Anywho, interesting. Okay, so you feel it in your belly, you feel it in your front, and it gives you space for breath. How have you been finding that when you access it, you are able to translate it externally, as in when you begin to self-trust or lean into your breath. How do you then show up differently?

[17:08] Joanna Carpenter: I mean, the top of my brain is how it shows up when I'm performing, whether that's on stage at Sweeney or it's auditions. I am pulled back to the reason I started making art in the first place and like participating in theater in the first place. It becomes joyful, it becomes fun. I do not worry or care what people think. You know, my best auditions have always been when I have made sure to come into my body and breathe and do the physical things that I need to do. Like I really like to work out before auditions. I'm very physical. But my best auditions were when I have just made the assumption that I'm going to do the best job because I have prepared for it. And also I the whatever I do is exactly what I'm supposed to do.

And that is not only enough as trite as that sounds because that phrase is really overused, but it's just I trust myself to be exactly what I want to be in that moment. And it's either going to be somebody's cup of tea or it's not. And more often than not, you know, when people have sensed that grounding in me, and it's really just let the story take center stage, literally. Then that's when people resonate the most with what I do. And that's when I can leave and not take a single thing personally.

[18:46] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. You know, like I've had auditions where I have gone in and done amazing work because I was trusting, I was grounded, I did all the things, did not even get a call back. It was almost like they could not wait for me to get out of the room.

[18:59] Joanna Carpenter: Yep.

[18:59] Jennifer Apple: And at first, of course, you're just like, what does that say about me? What does it, oh my God, is everything I do wrong? But then you have auditions where the second you walk out of the room, you find out later they were like, I know we have to do further callbacks, but she's the one.

[19:14] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah.

[19:15] Jennifer Apple: And it is not up to us to control the flow of what we do. It is our job to just do the work to get to the point where we can trust ourselves, you know. And like Sweeney feels very high stakes because I'm a swing. And so every time you go on, it's like, you know, we don't get to spend a lot of time necessarily in a single track. We bounce back and forth between vocal parts. Sweeney is an incredibly difficult show. There are no numbers on the stage. The set is set on an angle. You know, like the show is a mind fuck in so many ways. And being a swing is a mind fuck. But the moments when I have remembered that I can trust myself. I am going to hit every mark. I'm going to hit every note. I am going to move the pie counter if I need to.

I am going to do exactly what my job is. And on top of that, I trust myself to add the layers of intention and comedy and texture and my opinion. And, you know, being so deeply present with every single person on that stage. Those are my best shows when I don't have the luxury of the reps that everybody else has, right? It just makes our art so much better. And we get to enjoy making the art so much more.

[20:30] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. I'm really excited to hear that this is manifesting itself in you in this way. I know.

[20:39] Joanna Carpenter: I just work so hard.

[20:41] Jennifer Apple: I know. I want to like affirm that this is a really big deal. That yes, I imagine that there are some shows, for example, at Sweeney, that like you're like, this was not my favorite. But that you're empowering yourself enough prior to even just stepping out on that stage or even during it while you're, you know, on stage and realizing I'm not present to just be like, hey, let me check in with myself. I trust myself, I know what I'm doing, I've done the work and I've done as much as I possibly can before being in this moment to be here in this way, and it'll be what it'll be because I am the one who is trusting myself in it. Like I'm the one who has the agency in it. I think that's such a beautiful growth moment for you, my love. It's that's and that's where the liberation comes from because self-trust is very, very freeing.

[21:29] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. Um, and it's hard. But it's yeah, thank you for acknowledging that because it's it's like a really big hurdle that I was finally able to jump over in my life. And I'm like, oh, thank God.

[21:42] Jennifer Apple: Yeah. How did you do that? How did you get to this growth?

[21:44] Joanna Carpenter: A lot of therapy. Shout out to Mary. Um, Mary is just such an icon, my therapist Mary. And unwillingness to settle for believing the stories that my childhood taught me about myself.

[22:04] Jennifer Apple: Can I ask what some of those were?

[22:06] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing, and it's funny because Mary and I had a session today talking about this. I was raised to believe, I was raised by a very toxic, broken mother. Um, who I think in her heart, she's a really, really good person. Um, but her decisions have broken her, life has broken her in a lot of ways, and I was always her biggest competition. And I was always someone to be diminished and destroyed, if possible. And so one of the biggest narratives I was taught about myself was that your value is directly tied to how much you break your back to please other people, to do things for other people, to sacrifice yourself for other people. That is the measure of your worth, and it's a direct tie into how much love and affirmation and creativity that you can make manifest.

And I think a lot of this work and getting to the point of self-trust has really been about staring clearly at those stories that we're taught about ourselves. And I actually should stop using we because this story is very central to me. I think it's about my time and my willingness to look clearly at those things and not run away from them, not numb them with alcohol or people or athletics or you know, whatever thing. And just be really present with those moments when there is this voice in my head going, nobody likes you, everybody thinks you're shit. Um, you know, don't you dare take up more space than someone gives you, and nobody wants to give you space. And, you know, how dare you take pride in your work?

And it's manifested kind of oddly for me because I think a lot of people would have crumbled and become a shell of themselves. But I've always been a bit of a rebel in the sense that I have taken these things and gone, I am going to go out into the world and do as much good as I possibly can.

[24:32] Joanna Carpenter: And I've also come to a time in my life where I need to come back to me and spend time with those stories that I was taught about little Joanna and start to take those apart because breaking my back for all these things, um, just to make sure that the world knows I'm a good person and that there are things to care about, that there are people to care about. Um I have not been able to take care of myself in the midst of all that. Um so it's like, you know, when they tell you that like there's as an actor that there's power and stillness, and it's really hard to believe that because like we do musical theater, we're supposed to gesture and then jazz hands and you know, like all these things. When in actuality, when we see somebody really being intentionally still, that's when the most power is just like swirling around. And I've learned to be still with these awful, awful things that I've been taught about myself and go, oh no, no, not true. Fake news.

[25:43] Jennifer Apple: So well, thank you for sharing that and being so vulnerable about that. Um I would wager that you are not the only one.

[25:56] Joanna Carpenter: I bet I'm not. I bet I'm not who has felt, is feeling, is going through feeling. Um, you know, that they have either overexerted themselves or given more than they had in their cup, or put themselves um on a step below somebody else in order to prioritize somebody else's needs that for themselves or others deemed more quote unquote important. Um, I think this navigation of I'm gonna call it like self-prioritization here just for the sake of this, um, has a bad rap.

[26:38] Jennifer Apple: It does.

[26:39] Joanna Carpenter: Because, and I'll speak on behalf of myself, like taking up space um is something that I think I did as a kid. I know I did as a kid, and then there was some point in my life that that was quote unquote too much. And then I was taught to be small, and I was taught to be contained and taught to um make myself accommodating and accommodated, I guess, for others. Um yeah, it was only until grad school that I really allowed myself to embrace that that is arguably actually my superpower, that like my strength to not in an indulgent way, in a truthful, honest way. Like which when we talk about like taking up space, I don't mean just to be seen. Like that actually, I'm an introvert, nobody believes me, but I like really don't like most people, and I like to be at home with my dog and not leave. Um, but like I think taking up space in an honest way, in a way that is about the collective, not about myself. Um, that is what I'm referring to.

[27:52] Joanna Carpenter: And I I think there really was like a aha moment for me in grad school of like actually me not standing in my own power, me not taking up space that is truthful to who I am, is actually making other people probably more uncomfortable because they, if they're being intuitive, can sense that I'm not being truthful, first and foremost. I'm not allowing other people to take up space for themselves because that is arguably like what we I hate the word should, but like should all be doing in space is like everyone's just owning themselves. But I think that there's something really beautiful in what you're saying about the stillness in the power that is recognizing that a you matter just because you exist, but like that to prioritize yourself doesn't take anything away from other people. Arguably you're giving more to others by showing up fully.

[29:02] Joanna Carpenter: And the way you would show up by prioritizing yourself in a truthful, honest, vulnerable, whole integrated way is only going to allow you to do the work that you're trying to bend over backwards to do in a less volatile way.

[29:24] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[29:25] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. And also in a healthier way. Like the I will say for myself, like I'm about to go on vacation, and I unapologetically splurged on a stupid hotel on an island in the Caribbean, and I'm very excited about it. But also you haven't taken a vacation in over two years.

[29:41] Jennifer Apple: Right.

[29:42] Joanna Carpenter: And why wouldn't you do that if you could? Because I have I, Jen, when I tell you, I have fought with myself internally. I mean, like I the second I came out of my mouth, I'm like, actually, Jen, you probably wouldn't either. So, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Pot meat kettle. But it's I know I had to go back and forth with myself for several weeks to convince myself that I deserved to take this vacation while simultaneously operating at a level of burnout that is deeply unhealthy. And you know, we I think we've spoken about 86 the barrier, this EL program that I created for uh asylum seekers, Spanish speaking asylum seekers in New York City. And we just got done with a big cycle that's been the last few months uh of my life.

[30:14] Joanna Carpenter: And you know, we were so freaking impressive. And I know we're not here to like brag on you, but it's fucking brilliant, and you're dope and you're anyway, but carry on, yes.

[30:42] Jennifer Apple: I'm very proud of what this team was able to accomplish. Like my teaching team um are really extraordinary human beings, and I watched them change lives in real time, and I watched people who came to us traumatized and caught in a system that is so so broken. Uh I watched them self-actualize in real time. And we were able to get um with the help of my fiscal sponsor, we were also able to get several of my family's legal help with their asylum cases, which are the asylum process is currently backed up by anywhere from five years to a decade.

[31:20] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, people are just lost in the system. It's really, really awful. But language and legal and you know, all these things, and you know, as I was gearing up to build a cycle two of 86 the barrier. One of my teachers, who is an amazing, she she coaches uh Latina like women entrepreneurs. She's incredible, she's a brilliant teacher. She put a hand on my shoulder and she just said, You cannot save everybody.

[31:46] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[31:47] Joanna Carpenter: And that really gave me pause because I realized that it wasn't just within the microcosm of 86 the barrier that I was trying to do that. It was my entire life. And you know, this goes back to the the beginning of the conversation. Like I literally asked my therapist today, who am I if I am not spending my days in service of other people? I don't know who I am. And I've I've tried to go back to some sort of deeply embedded childhood memory of before I learned how to value myself based on how much service I provide to others, and I don't remember. And maybe I will, maybe I just need to take some mushrooms, just like have a minute. But I don't remember what it is like to choose me.

[32:30] Joanna Carpenter: So when you talk about self-prioritization, you know, it is yes, unapologetically spending a lot of money on a luxury hotel in you know the Caribbean, but it's also recognizing when somebody comes to me with a rant or a problem or something, and they might not necessarily even ask for my help, but my first impulse is to leap into action for that person to fix it. And I was just like, who am I if I'm not doing this? And all I know is I can't do this anymore.

[33:01] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, you know, not just because nobody's taking care of me, but because I'm not taking care of me.

[33:07] Joanna Carpenter: Right. What does the power of that stillness look like? And I don't know. And she gave me the really shitty answer, which she tends to do, which is she's just like, you've just got to practice it. And I'm like, well, Mary, fuck. Um, fine, you know, but like sitting in these moments when I feel that impulse to serve, to fix, to whatever. What happens when I trust myself enough exactly to go, you're good. You do not have to jump up. Maybe somebody just wanted to be in your orbit or just happened to be passing by.

[33:41] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[33:42] Joanna Carpenter: You cannot save everyone. You cannot fix everyone. That's not your job.

[33:46] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[33:47] Joanna Carpenter: You know, and it's like, cool girl, cool girl.

[33:50] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[33:51] Joanna Carpenter: Thank God for ice cream. Cause I just oh, yeah. The most or little chocolates froze in my freezer. Those are great. Um I I hear this connection now between um the yeah, self-prioritization and the trust, and how they're actually interlinked. You know, how it's okay, I can separately work on trusting that myself when I feel that in for you, you know, your belly front gut area. And connecting that to, okay, in this moment, my gut is telling me to do this thing. Perhaps this actually isn't necessarily linked to prioritizing myself, it's actually um me in like the routine of what I've known. Or perhaps there's actually something in there that's even deeper than what you are used to feeling of like actually there's different tones and and levels to what I'm actually tuning into here.

[34:55] Joanna Carpenter: And this one's saying go forward, and this one's saying still, and this one's saying lean back, and this one's saying lean forward, and this one's um guiding me in certain ways to calibrate how much of myself I'm able to give.

[35:15] Jennifer Apple: Yep.

[35:15] Joanna Carpenter: You know, you talk about not being able to pour from an empty cup, right? Like I know a lot of us, especially like, I mean, my community, communities like across the world are really, really incredible people. And I know especially a lot of really strong, impactful, powerful women in particular, who are asking these same questions.

[35:20] Jennifer Apple: Mm-hmm.

[35:20] Joanna Carpenter: And sometimes that much is zero.

[35:40] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[35:40] Joanna Carpenter: And going, what am I sacrificing and why? And why do I feel so guilty living my best life? Like, if I'm being fully transparent, and I know this is because of what I was taught when I was younger, because my mom spent so much time competing with me. The amount of times I have felt guilty for reaching a goal that I have had since I was a little kid. I have always wanted to be on Broadway. I have always, I have fought so long and hard to get to where I am. And now I'm in this show that I love with so many people that I love with a creative team that I respect and admire. And it's just, it's making me so much better at my job than I, you know, than I have been, um, because of the experience. And yet I get these flashes where it's like, oh my God, I don't have the right to be here because like, you know, like I don't what what's so special about me?

[36:35] Joanna Carpenter: But I have to, I've enacted a practice where like I take a step back and it's like, baby girl, that's not your voice that's asking that question. That is the voice of your past that was fed to you by somebody who was supposed to have your best interest at heart and did not. That person that was supposed to be the most proud of you, rooting for you the most, who has not acknowledged that I have made my Broadway debut. My dear. Sorry. Um, but it's you know, it's that practice of recognizing exactly what you outlined. What is the push, what is the pull, whose voice is it actually that's coming in. And very often we, especially if we are empathetic creatures, like so many of your listeners are, and so many artists are.

Or is this something that I may have been taught about myself that I can examine, that I can re-examine, you know? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The learning and the unlearning of it, and in the process of doing that. I it's like I feel like we're very good at I'll speak on behalf of myself. I'm very good at gaslighting myself. Oh my God. We're so good. You know, being like, okay, well, you did that, but like, why? I mean, clearly you're not X, Y, and Z, or the imposter syndrome starts to like own the gaslighting verbiage, and you're like, well, therefore, I don't deserve to be here. And like I've I feel like have gotten more curious, really, as opposed to judgmental about this in my own psyche about like how are you so adept at like telling yourself these things and how is I call her the little fucker, or it wasn't him.

It's so interesting that I've just I've changed the gender in this moment. Wow, okay. Well, here we are. Um, I'm so into it. I'm having like, well, I'm gonna have to call my therapist to talk about that one. Um recommend. Yeah, literally. But having how how I've become so good at that. Um, and really practicing when I am telling myself I suck, or when I'm gaslighting myself into thinking that I did or did not do certain things or you deserve to, or not to whatever, all of that, to remember that that isn't necessarily me. That's this little fucker on my shoulder telling me all of the things that wants to keep me small, going back to our you know, moment about like taking up space or being still in that.

Like that is somebody who is reverting back into old patterning or wanting to keep you safe. Like I think there's that to the play for me that I'm super curious about of like when this little fucker or the imposter syndrome or the lack of worthiness or the gaslighting or any of that, the stuff that we do to ourselves, when that actually is protective and when it actually is noise. Because sometimes it is intuition, sometimes it is your gut, and sometimes it's just, and I guess that's like going back to like why I asked, like where you feel it in your gut, because I think that for me is like I'm curious as to when we can how we can actually tune into when it's real and when it's just noise. Sometimes that it's really noisy and it's hard to tell the difference, but that is I think where the strength lies is actually being able to call it out and knowing the barometer to trust it or to ignore it, or to say, thank you so much, your excuse for the day, go home and take a break.

[39:56] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, yeah. You know what I think it is? I think for a lot of us it's a survival mechanism. And this is across people of all identities, all gen like you name it, like we all do this. Um, and I think I'll speak for me, and I don't know if this resonates with you, but just in case it does, for me, if I could punch myself in the face before anybody else could, then I could control how much pain I was in. Because there is something about hearing a demeaning, diminishing, destructive comment about myself or an accusation or criticism, or whatever shape that to whatever shape the lack of love takes. If I can apply that to myself first, I can then it's it's the devil you know, I can recognize that and turn it and use it as a shield/slash weapon against whatever might be coming at me.

I can get ahead of it. That was I learned at a very young age that the best way to protect myself, the best defense is a good offense. So I would not only teach myself to not physically sometimes um hit hardest and like take somebody down before they could take me down, but I was so adept at thinking so far ahead at anything I might get in trouble for, anything I might get punished for, any reason I might get bullied at school, like whatever it was. I would think 10 miles down the road just to get ahead of everything, and then I would strategize the ways that I would protect myself, the things that I would say, the things that I would say to them, and the things that I would say to myself in order to just be protect yourself on.

[41:33] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. And how it translates when you're older is it crushes you inside because we cannot, it's not sustainable. Carrying those weapons and those shields. I think we learned how to use them and they were of service to us to a point. I just know for me personally, I would rather crack my heart open because I am safe inside myself now. I am not handing my safety, I'm not handing the decision and the direction of my safety to anybody else anymore. Yeah. And that happens at different points in our lives. But I do think these things that were survival mechanisms do hit a point where they don't serve us anymore. And that's okay. It's not about judging them, it's about observing them and recognizing when you can lay that particular tool down.

[42:28] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I resonated so much with what you were just saying. Especially you didn't say it in this way, but like the idea that the things that no longer serve you, it's okay to put down. Yeah. Um and move through or adapt or change. I feel um I hadn't really ever used this like self-prioritization verbiage before. I think for me, it's I think it's kind of in some ways synonymous with self-care and like what it actually means, not what the world has told us it means or consume consumerism and commercialism has made us. Self-care is not a multi-billion dollar industry. Exactly. It's like actually looking inward and doing what you need for yourself in order to feel okay, whatever that means to you.

Yeah, go touch grass. Jesus. Yeah, exactly. Yes. Or do other things, whatever. Go touch grass. Please, please immediately. Um, but I think I think it is what you're saying in that, like in order to prioritize yourself or care for yourself, or be honest or truthful with yourself, or trust yourself. Again, like words hold meaning and some words don't hold meaning for other people. Um, I think in order to do that, it really is about yeah, looking back to these things that were so good at protecting us when we were younger and reflecting on them, being grateful to them to getting us to where we are today.

[44:04] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. And then recognizing that it's okay to say thank you so much, Marie Kondo the thing, and put it to the side. And that doesn't take away from the fact that it protected you for so long and allowed you to become who you are, and now you've outgrown it and you can you can see it for really all that it is and put it to the side so that other voices can be a little bit louder and take up more space.

[44:31] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. And arguably in my mind, I think in those growth periods, of which frankly I feel like we are always in, or I'll speak for my house myself. I'm always in one and want to continue to be in one until the day I die. Yes. Um, I think for me, it's the softening in it, the vulnerability in it, which is strength, the understanding that I don't really know anything, which is humility, which is, you know, the knowledge that I will continue unlearning and um being unsure, which is curiosity, yeah, you know, and how all these things that can easily be detriments to my life or my philosophy or the way I move through the world are also the things that are allowing me to see the world in a different way so that I can show up in a different way more fully.

[45:35] Joanna Carpenter: Yes, 100%. And recognizing all of those things as either an obstacle or a tool or an obstacle that was once a tool, right? Like throwing them in that category.

[45:46] Joanna Carpenter: Oh my god, I wanna can I tell you a quick story?

[45:48] Jennifer Apple: Of course.

[45:48] Joanna Carpenter: Okay. Have you ever done a burning ceremony?

[45:52] Jennifer Apple: Okay. Before I even answer, what do you think my answer is gonna be?

[45:56] Joanna Carpenter: Yes.

[45:57] Jennifer Apple: Really?

[45:58] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah.

[45:59] Jennifer Apple: You think I've done a burning ceremony?

[46:01] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah. What kind of burning ceremony are we talking about first?

[46:04] Jennifer Apple: Okay, I'll tell you the story.

[46:06] Joanna Carpenter: Okay. So this is actually this is recommended to me by um my friend Asa, who is a brilliant healer and um just like a psychic and just really, really wonderful. Um, but he suggested this a couple of years ago, and it took me like a couple of years to get to the point where I was ready for it. But then I realized, going back to what we were saying, is that like the stories that I've been told about myself used to be tools because I could turn around and weaponize them, either against myself or against other people to stay protected, but they were now an obstacle, and I could not see beyond them. I could not see beyond these stories to even envision being on Broadway, making 86 a barrier happen, continuing to build my community.

So what I did, and this was like totally impulsive, but it was also I was breathing so clearly in that moment that that was how I knew I was exactly right. I wrote down every awful thing that I had ever been taught about myself. And when I tell you that I filled in small writing three full notebook pages, and this was like eight and a half by eleven rule pieces of paper. Wrote them all down, and then I cut them all into little pieces so that you could see everything awful on every piece of paper. And I took them outside, and I have like a gigantic shell that I got from one of the big beaches I was on in Europe. Um, because I always collect shells when I'm at the ocean. And I piled them all into this gigantic shell and I burned them.

And right as the fire was like diminishing, this huge gust of wind came and just scattered the ashes everywhere. And I sat and I just sobbed. And that was the first time in my entire life that there was silence in my head. It was like all of these voices that I've carried with me for so long, the voices of other people telling me who I am, what I'm worth, what I'm not worth, what I'm terrible at, why I'm unwanted, why I'm unloved, why I'll never be on Broadway, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All of these stories, I had literally burned them away. And they haven't come back. And so it's been a matter of then having the clarity to analyze the content that still leaves residue, even if it's not, you know, like screaming in your ear.

Analyzing the content and slowly picking it apart, but there is something to, you know, some people might be like a burning ceremony sounds really fucking stupid. And I'm like, honestly, understandable. Like totally got that. I it was not, it was not in my like pile of things that I go to to self-actualize, but it just what it was what needed to happen in that moment.

[48:47] Joanna Carpenter: And there was something so cleansing about it that I think going back to what you were saying, recognizing these things and the light and dark side of all of the things and when they serve you, when they don't, and when they have served you, when they're not anymore, being okay with that, being okay with that acknowledgement and saying, What can I put to the side? What can I thank and say, you were really, really helpful to me once upon a time. You can rest now. I don't need this. Right.

[49:17] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[49:18] Joanna Carpenter: I love the being okay with that acknowledgement. I think you know, the impulse is to judge a feeling or just judge something that's happening to you, change exactly, as opposed to being like, Oh, I it's the same thing as like if you were to body scan, and when I like do this with you know clients of mine or in master classes or whatever, and we body scan, it's like as you go through this and things pop up or things are tight, and just just notice, you know, it's a very Buddhist yoga practice, and it's so hard to do. But just the simple acknowledgement of the thing is sometimes all it really needs to be like, hi, I've been waving and yelling for you to notice me and you haven't, you've ignored me, you've tried to make me something different that I don't want to be, versus, hey, I see you.

I see you right now isn't the time. Yeah, I'm gonna put you to the side for a sec. We'll deal with you eventually. Yeah, or maybe not. But like maybe we won't. Maybe I don't have the capacity or ever really want to, but I'm gonna tell you that I will. So that you just chill out for a moment, sit to the side, and I can now navigate through another thing that I actually want to prioritize in this moment. I think that is such a wonderful thing of like, yeah, being able to hold these things simultaneously. I know we're talking like very abstract about like feelings and whatever, but I think, yeah, being able to see something for the dark and the light and being able to hold both as neither good or bad. Yeah.

[50:45] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[50:46] Joanna Carpenter: They're just, they just are.

[50:48] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[50:48] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, the non-judgment part, I feel like is really hard for a lot of us. Cause like, how often do you have a feeling that feels really right in your body and you immediately judge it? You immediately delegitimize it, right? Especially as artists, especially as creatives, because we don't have the safety net of affirmation of our good work very often.

[51:08] Jennifer Apple: No.

[51:08] Joanna Carpenter: Or even the or again, even the acknowledgement that it was received. Yes. There's so much that goes into like the void, you know, the nebulous little void. And it's arguably sometimes really beautiful work or you know vulnerable parts of yourself and you just don't even get acknowledged that you've given it. And that in itself can drive you wild. Absolutely wild. Let alone the next step of like oh I'm not now I know you've seen it but now I'm not getting affirmed for it or I'm not getting you know validated for whatever I've given. Yes. It's a hard practice.

[51:41] Jennifer Apple: It is well and that goes back to self-trust too, which is a very hard practice. You can't just wake up one morning and be like I trust myself now. I'm amazing. Like nobody if you I mean if you could please come reach out to me and let me know your ways. Because I also think you're lying.

[51:56] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah and it's but the hardest things like that sensation of getting squeezed through a straw which was like all of last year for me getting squeezed through a straw you come out the other side and all of a sudden the air is different. And it feels better and knowing that like what you were just saying like these things are not simply good or bad. Nothing is that binary. It's just not that simple and our truths are not that simple. And I think a lot of people are very very afraid to live in the gray area. They are very afraid to not land solidly anywhere I am. You know, there are so many times when I'm like must have concrete information.

[52:35] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, but arguably, like you're literally doing, I'm just going to affirm not that you asked, but I'm affirming that you're doing that right now in this conversation that has no like agenda, right? Like we will not have surprise listener. Like we don't have there's no like like results, you know. But like we are living completely in an abstract gray area just to even talk about these things.

[52:55] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, but I don't know if it's like helpful to reframe it as like the gray is still gray.

[53:02] Jennifer Apple: Yes, like it still is a thing.

[53:04] Joanna Carpenter: Like just because it's a gray area and it's between two things, if we're putting it on a scale, doesn't mean that that isn't a space. Like being in the gray is still being somewhere.

[53:16] Jennifer Apple: I know that's also abstract, but it is, but also I feel like your listeners would be on board with that, you know.

[53:21] Joanna Carpenter: Like the gray is where the we'll find out. Um we forget that the gray is where the magic happens.

[53:32] Jennifer Apple: The unknown is where the magic happens, right?

[53:35] Joanna Carpenter: And it's so scary to just like push your own raft away from the dock, you know. Like that's been my metaphor a lot. Like, I just need to like push my raft away from the dock and turn and face the ocean.

[53:46] Jennifer Apple: Why is it a raft and not a boat?

[53:48] Joanna Carpenter: Good question.

[53:50] Jennifer Apple: Oh God, I don't know.

[53:52] Joanna Carpenter: But I mean to debunk like this beautiful thing that you've been like using as like your thing. I'm just wanting to, you know, again, not that you asked, but like when I hear raft, I hear um temporary.

[54:03] Jennifer Apple: Well, I enjoy the extremes of vulnerability, so I would like to be as exposed to the elements as I possibly can.

[54:08] Joanna Carpenter: Clearly, you're like, you know what? I could have a boat, I could have a kayak, but like, you know what? Let's just grab let's just go.

[54:13] Jennifer Apple: Let's just fucking go. I have three bags of snacks, and we'll see how long I left. I have a lot of air in my lungs to put into this inflatable thing, and it may as well just turn it around.

[54:21] Joanna Carpenter: Oh my gosh, put me in the gray area.

[54:24] Jennifer Apple: That is, it is. I mean, that's that's the crux of it, though, right?

[54:27] Joanna Carpenter: You know, no, the raft is the gray, 100%. You haven't committed to a kayak and you haven't committed to a boat.

[54:31] Jennifer Apple: So I'm just I'm just curious, but that was just me picking at you.

[54:35] Joanna Carpenter: Extreme exposure.

[54:36] Jennifer Apple: I want extreme exposure.

[54:38] Joanna Carpenter: Like, I want my legacy to be like, wow, she went hard.

[54:42] Jennifer Apple: I don't think you need to worry about that.

[54:45] Joanna Carpenter: I don't think I do either. I'm so tired.

[54:47] Jennifer Apple: I think all of us are.

[54:49] Joanna Carpenter: I'm excited for vacation.

[54:50] Jennifer Apple: Oh, I can wait for you.

[54:52] Joanna Carpenter: Just I'm waiting, I'm waiting with full breath for you to call me.

[54:57] Jennifer Apple: And I don't actually want you to say words. I want it just to be like I just kind of like want to hear like weird sounds of the ocean.

[55:05] Joanna Carpenter: I was sounding like we're talking about like you on the beach breathing, but we could also do the ocean too, if that's maybe a little less ASMR-e of you like being in my ear breathing.

[55:13] Jennifer Apple: I'll send you both.

[55:14] Joanna Carpenter: I'll just send you voice notes of both.

[55:15] Jennifer Apple: Great.

[55:16] Joanna Carpenter: I'm here for it. Um as we begin winding down our abstract time here. I'm curious if there's anything that's like on your heart.

[55:25] Jennifer Apple: We nap, look, we bounced around a lot. We talked about self-trust, we talked about, you know, priority of self. We talked about looking back, you know, on your life and recognizing that those things aren't necessarily bad things, but the protection that you have created for yourself in order to navigate through them, those defenses perhaps can maybe come down a little bit, be put to the side. We talked about acknowledging, you know, the quote unquote good or bad, or the you know, the dark and light as just being and not judging it. We've talked about a lot of things, but knowing all of that, is there anything that's currently on your heart that we haven't shared?

[56:02] Joanna Carpenter: I mean, I think that's that's like really what's uh at the front of my brain and soul at the moment. And I also just want to make it clear that like even when we talk about these heavy things, these things that feel like a strain, like a heavy lift, like the labor of coming to choose yourself is like really hefty and it's not linear. And at the same time, I don't want anybody to perceive it as a negative. Like it is like it's living, no? Isn't that living? And it's also these moments, these bursts of realization, these bursts of clarity that hopefully just like imprint and linger, you know, those the overwhelming feeling that I have right now is a sense of possibility that I never had before.

And that's possibility in my career, that's possibility in my community, and that's also possibility for my own sense of ease. You know, I think we I don't think we ever fully achieve inner peace, you know, because the world is very tumultuous and painful and an awful place right now. And those of us who are participating in the world still need to remain receptive to that. But I think we can give ourselves these moments of ease that are just so delicious and so full of possibility because of the heavy labor, right? Like we have our own internal like reward systems. Like my reward system is feeling a sense of ease where I am not obligated to bend over backwards for anything or anybody unless it is absolutely something that my heart deeply desires to do, and even then I'm gonna double check it because if it costs me too much, then I can't, you know. So I want people to kind of like perceive this as just like it's more possibility. It's more possibility for yourself.

[57:55] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[57:56] Joanna Carpenter: I would also add curiosity too.

[57:58] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[57:58] Joanna Carpenter: Like for me, possibility comes after just being curious about it. You know, like if you're curious about looking at these things, if you're curious about understanding them for yourself, again, ideally with as least amount of judgment as possible.

[58:14] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[58:14] Joanna Carpenter: Um, and then from there, it's like, and therefore now I see the possibility. You know, I guess I think for me, those two things go really in tandem together.

[58:24] Jennifer Apple: I love that.

[58:25] Joanna Carpenter: Um, yeah.

[58:26] Jennifer Apple: I love you.

[58:28] Joanna Carpenter: I love you.

[58:29] Jennifer Apple: I'm just I am grateful that you understand my brain.

[58:36] Joanna Carpenter: I right back at you.

[58:38] Jennifer Apple: It's just we call this a winding path.

[58:41] Joanna Carpenter: Yeah, and that you know some people can hang with the way that my philosophical brain works, and some people it's not their speed, and I don't care, but it's nice to be in a space with somebody who is willing to go on the abstract philosophical journey that I go with on in my own brain.

[59:04] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, um, it's nice to not be solo in that.

[59:07] Joanna Carpenter: So thank you for writing this with me and doing so in as always an incredibly vulnerable um and open-hearted curious way. So I'm just grateful to you.

[59:19] Jennifer Apple: I'm grateful to you.

[59:20] Joanna Carpenter: Always always down for the winding road in your brain.

[59:24] Jennifer Apple: For anybody who wants to keep up with you to follow on your journey to work with you, what within your boundaries is the best way for people to reach you.

[59:32] Joanna Carpenter: Instagram is great. I actually uh I deactivated Facebook a couple years ago, I deactivated my website about a year and a half ago. So, really, unless you have my number, the best way, um, the best way is Instagram. Um, and I, you know, I like I share a lot on there. I also share things that I feel like are just silly ding dong little things because I am a ding dong and um you know swingy stuff and some 86 barrier stuff, and yeah, so Instagram, and that is at uh the Joanna C.

[1:00:04] Jennifer Apple: Perfect.

[1:00:05] Joanna Carpenter: Thank you.

[1:00:06] Jennifer Apple: Thank you.

[1:00:10] Joanna Carpenter: If something in this episode resonated with you, and more importantly, if this podcast means something to you, it would mean the most to us if you would leave us a positive review. This means the most in podcast land and allows us to continue creating these episodes for you weekly. If you are not yet doing so, please follow us on Instagram at Empowered Artist Collective, on TikTok at Empowered Artist Collective, more on our website at Empowered Artist Collective.com. If you are seeking some fun, cute merchandise, we have that link for you in the show notes. As always, I am so endlessly grateful that you keep on coming back, and we will be back again next week. Until then.