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[0:02] Jennifer Apple: Hello. Welcome to the Empowered Artist Collective Podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Apple, a multi-hyphenate actor, educator, acting coach, writer, dog mom, and founder of this vibrant community that champions artists as they carve out their own unique paths in this wild industry. Whether you're just starting out in the thick of it or seeking a bit of artistic fuel to expand your toolbox, you're in the right place. In this space, we'll have honest conversations, share actionable strategies, tips, and resources, and delve into the messy yet beautiful journey of living a sustainable creative life. We unmask the reality of life as an artist, from navigating career highs and lows to nurturing your full human well-being.

I chat with women and non-binary guests who share their personal stories, helpful learnings, and hearts to help you unlock your artistic potential, expand your knowledge, and show up fully and fearlessly in your artistry and daily life. Before we dive into this week's conversation, don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. If today's chat resonates with you, please leave us a review. It helps us reach even more incredible artists just like you. And hey, feel free to spread the love. Share this podcast with a friend or post it on your socials, making sure to tag @EmpoweredArtistCollective and @JenniferApple_ so we can chat with you there. Alright, grab a cup of something cozy, settle in, and let's get to it.

[1:25] Jennifer Apple: What does it take to become a choreographer on Broadway? This week I talked to director choreographer Katie Spelman, who shares the complex and often nonlinear trajectory of the choreography world that led her to her Broadway choreographic debut for The Notebook, which, if you have yet to see it, closes on December 15th, so run. Katie breaks down the distinct roles and positions in the choreography world, from dance captain to assistant to associate, offering clarity on how each supports a production. She divulges some of her favorite tools, shares how creating imperfect work regularly can unlock creativity, and highlights the collaboration and trust required to build and sustain productions.

We also discuss the systemic challenges in the industry, including gender disparities in creative leadership, the need for diverse representation on and off stage, and Katie's personal commitment to uplifting others in the industry. You will gain tangible insights into the importance of finding collaborators, embracing imperfection, and choreographing for the bodies and performers you have in a room. Whether you're a dancer, choreographer, or simply curious about the artistry of storytelling through movement, this episode is for you. Enjoy.

[2:34] Jennifer Apple: Katie Spelman, hi.

[2:35] Katie Spelman: Hi, Jennifer Apple.

[2:37] Jennifer Apple: Ugh, it's so good to have you in the space. I'm really pumped about our conversation and where it potentially will go. Um, for anybody who does not know you, who are you today?

[2:47] Katie Spelman: Who am I today? Uh hi, I'm Katie. Uh I'm a choreographer and a director. I work mostly in musical theater, but I do a little bit of everything. And I have a pretty strong focus on story and uh the feminine on stage.

[3:06] Jennifer Apple: I'm yeah, yes, yes, and yes, and um I was like an interrupt. It's like, no, no, no, we're gonna, we'll get there. How did you get into choreography directing? I mean, like just like the little origin story to like where you are.

[3:20] Katie Spelman: Yeah, well, like many humans uh in musical theater, I went to college thinking I was the next Sutton Foster. Uh so went into the musical theater program at Northwestern. Um, and Northwestern has this really robust student theater community. So um, I think the like the main stage season that the school sponsors has like six productions a year, but then there's about eight or ten independent companies on campus that are all student run. They're all 501c3s, they're all like full full organizations and they all do full seasons. So there's something like 87, 89 shows a year. Um, and because those are all over the place and their plays, their original works, their musicals, they're this, that, and the other, they start kind of you start kind of like jumping into jobs that you wouldn't necessarily do to like meet people and to make work, and that was the first place where anybody asked me to choreograph really.

Um and I really fell in love with it and I really started to get good at it because there weren't really other choreographers on campus. So I got to do it a lot. Um and after maybe like one or two years of dancing professionally, I was like, I would like to be behind a table. Yeah, I think that's what I want to do. So I spent quite a bit of my twenties dance captaining until I could get into like assisting positions, and then once I got into assisting positions, I started looking into choreographing in Chicago, and once I started choreographing in Chicago, I started putting out feelers for like associate work.

[4:56] Katie Spelman: Yeah. Um was the luckiest human on the planet and got uh selected to be Stephen Hoggett's associate on a show off Broadway, which brought me to New York and then I traveled around for about five years working on some of his things. I worked on the West End with him, I worked on Once, um worked on a couple off Broadway things, and then uh stayed in the associate game for quite some time in New York while going back and forth to regional theaters to do my own work and uh through a confluence of meetings and conversations and working with people, I got hired to choreograph The Notebook, which is kind of ushered in a new era of choreographing in New York, which is which this is actually technically my think my choreographic debut in New York as well as.

[5:49] Jennifer Apple: I yeah. What an incredible piece. Um thank you for sharing all of that. Uh again, like I find it very fascinating to hear people like how they've come to where they are, just because I think there's you know the misnomer in some ways that like, oh, if I've studied this thing and then this is how my life is going to go, or this is how the plan is going to work, or this is how the industry is going to then treat me or find me and whatever. And it's like, no, no, no, let's remind ourselves that there is no linear path. Um there are potentially like building blocks that the industry sees as um necessary for like quote unquote progression or movement, quote unquote upwards, but there are exceptions to those rules all the time, and there's also just you know twists and turns.

I guess I'm curious just to break down for those of us who perhaps know more or some of us who know less, like what the difference is between assisting associate choreography, like when you are gonna actually do the choreography itself. What are the differences between all these kinds of positions?

[6:44] Katie Spelman: I think that's a fair question, and I unfortunately have detailed answers for this because we just got the associates covered by um by SDC uh for first-tier contracts. So associates now get healthcare, which they didn't before. It's which is good progress. It's it's like is it progress or is it just like basic human rights? You know what I mean? Yay, we made it as like we made it to the bare minimum. Okay, great. Uh I'm I'm thrilled that we're that they're now covered, but uh it was a long and really messy fight, and it was sad to me. Um, but in the process of that, we kind of defined the difference between an associate, a resident, and assistant. So and and ultimately what we came down to most of it's semantics, right?

Um, most regional theaters will hire you as an assistant because associate isn't really a job outside of uh commercial theater, I don't think. Um it's it's a like if you're an assistant choreographer, you're taking notes for the choreographer, you're maybe running understudy rehearsals, perhaps, maybe not. You're kind of keeping track of the choreography. So when the choreographer goes, I'm sorry, what would what did I say? When are we doing this? to be kind of on top of it, like this is the count, this is when it's happening. Um, and then usually if you're working at a regional theater, it's not a new musical, it's a musical that exists already. So there's just like a level of there's just like a it's a it's a slightly lighter skill set. If you're an associate, uh you're you're helping build a show with the choreographer. So that varies from choreographer to choreographer.

[8:21] Katie Spelman: Um I've associated for people that are like, this is what it is, teach it, which is also great. Uh you document all of that to make sure that it's written down, you chart it so that it exists uh in the zeitgeist for future productions of the show, because usually if you're associating on something, it's intending to have a longer life. Uh and you can go so far as on Moulin Rouge, there were two associates. It was me and my friend Mia Deweys, because the show was just so giant that like we'd be in three separate dance rehearsals at one time. So Sonya would be in a room, Mia would be in a room doing diamonds, I'd be in a room doing a pitch song or something like that. We'd be kind of shifting around.

So I think associate implies a little bit more autonomy, uh and a very high level of trust between you and the person who's choreographing the production that you understand their aesthetic, their style, their goals, their needs, enough to kind of be able to function as a proxy for them when they're not there.

[9:22] Katie Spelman: And I always think that my main job as an associate is to stop problems before they happen, which is to say, if you see somebody exiting stage left and you know they have to come on stage right in another costume in three minutes to be aware of okay, well, the if we could bring them off this way, that would be great. It would make a quick change a lot easier. And if not, I can talk to wardrobe and move their quick change to the side of the stage, and you become a liaison basically between every department. Um the and listen, this is why I went so ham on the negotiations with uh with SDC, but the the associates are are kind of the grease of the wheels on on Broadway in particular, so the creatives can kind of focus on making the giant thing, right?

Like my job on Moulin Rouge was to make Sonia Taya's job as easy as humanly possible so that all she had to do was create. And I would I could be the person that was like, Hey, I think we need to rubberize so-and-so's shoes. Can we get different straps for this quick change? It would be great if they didn't have to wear these tights here because it's making it harder to get on stage for this moment. Um, and to not bother her with any of that, so that all she had to focus on was what was on stage. And then once it was on stage, it was kind of my job to maintain it to make sure that it was living up to her vision and her intention. And then it becomes a co-pro with the dance captains on the swings to start to train people to fit into that piece in the after opening portion.

[10:58] Jennifer Apple: Beautiful. Um, and then if the show has a life, you can stay on as a resident, which I did for a year. Well, uh a fake year because it got cut off by COVID, but you can stay on as a resident, which basically is the same job, it just because you're not building something, it becomes like a permanent position. So as opposed to like I'm an associate, I'm helping to build the thing. The thing is built, you're maintaining it. And then you can also work on future productions. So I set uh a large portion of the Australian company, I helped set some of the UK company. Um, and Sonia would come in for like a few weeks at a time, but it wasn't her job to basically like put the whole thing up. It was her job to come in and be like, This is my stuff.

Yes, this looks great. Let's adjust this, let's change this. She gets to kind of come in and just she gets to focus on like the heart of the piece and the like the capital D dance of it and not have to worry about like, oh, well actually the stage is three feet smaller, so I'm gonna move these people here and let me know if you hate it. And if you do, then here are six other options, right?

[12:04] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[12:04] Katie Spelman: So it becomes kind of a rollout job in in the best case.

[12:08] Jennifer Apple: Thank you for breaking that down because I feel like again, there's a misnomer of like we do choreography. It's like, well, actually, where does how does this work? And who do I, if I am in a production, who am I um, you know, going to for X kind of question? What is the um, I wouldn't even say like chain of command necessarily in terms of status, but there's something about like, cool, I have a question about yeah, this quick change when I'm coming off stage with this, instead of bothering this person, there is a human being whose job it is is to like troubleshoot and now knowing that for myself as an artist on that stage allows all the cogs to work together. Um is really, really helpful information.

[12:46] Katie Spelman: Yeah. And especially in a show like that giant, it was like Sonia doesn't need to worry about where your quick change is. Let me let me handle that because she's choreographing six 11 minute numbers, and I feel like that's where her like basically like my job is to make sure her brain can do what it needs to do, right? Instead of getting overloaded with the little stuff. Um it sounds like it's not a creative job. There is creativity inside of there. And uh because she and I had worked together for so long, there would be like really occasional moments where she'd be like, I don't know, what do you think? Or I don't have an idea, do you have an idea? Um, and we could kind of like she could bounce ideas off of me, which is that was my favorite part of the job to kind of get to be a sounding board for her.

And Hoggett did that with me as well, to be like, oh, what if it was this? What if it was this? And then I could be like, Yes, I think that's awesome. And here are six ways that I could see that happening. And have you thought about this? You know, like you kind of become the negative space for that person to be their sounding board and to also kind of help them help them troubleshoot in whatever way they need you to troubleshoot, right?

[13:59] Katie Spelman: So we came into like a really by the time we got to Broadway, because we've been working together for so long, we'd figured out like a nice split of duties where it was like, cool, if you have a question about anything that's like backstage related, like uh logistics related, spacing related, go talk to Katie. If you have like a dance, a partnering, uh like a an actual like body body question, talk to Mia. You could ask either of us about anything, but like the we kind of tried to make that the chain of command really clear because the show was so giant. Um we had amazing dance captains on that show too that were really helpful in that way. Uh, but like you wouldn't be able to build a show like that, I don't think, without a giant team.

[14:39] Katie Spelman: Um and we got to free up Sonia to have a giant fuck off amazing vision. And it was really wonderful to watch it come to life and to get to kind of help it breathe that way. But your point to like breaking it down, this was where we ran into issues with, well, not issues, but this is why it took so long to unionize the associates, is that there are only like 60 of us at a given time. Which is a because there's only so many musicals on a commercial scale is what we're getting at.

[15:10] Katie Spelman: Right. Yeah, there's only so many shows running on Broadway and on tour at one time. A lot of those associates do both, like they're the resident on Broadway and they go out and visit the tour, right? And then also um some shows have two. Some shows have an associate director and an associate choreographer. Some shows just get rid of their associate choreographer after it opens and leave everything to their dance captain. Some shows do the same thing with their associate director. Like it's an interesting mix.

[15:36] Katie Spelman: So it's kind of hard to understand what that job is when one, there aren't that many of us, and two, those of us that are doing that kind of associate work are usually working on six things at once or six versions of one show at one time. So they're kind of they're inaccessible. Well, that's also the thing that I wanna understand is let's say I, you know, I am somebody who really wants to become a professional choreographer, right? Is it like I preemptively am deciding, okay, I need and again going back to like there's no one way to do this, I understand that.

[16:12] Katie Spelman: But like, you know, I want to become a professional choreographer. Do I need to go do the regional circuit as an assistant for a while and then eventually build those relationships that will potentially move me into a more associate level? Is it like, okay, I start assisting people who are working at that level in various ways, and then hopefully at some point they bump me up because there's trust there and now there's the relationship built? Is it like, you know, I reach out to the directors who then know the choreographers and then they put me on the team?

[16:39] Katie Spelman: I imagine there are many versions of how this can go down, but like where does one even kind of start so that you can potentially get to that level if it's something that you are seeking? Right, right, right. You just listed like three fantastic ways to go about it, and all three of those are legitimate. And then there's like a fourth path too of folks that are dancers on stage that want to become choreographers. Dance captioning is a good way to kind of edge your way into being an associate because they're real, there's they're not the same skill set, but they're a similar skill set.

[17:09] Katie Spelman: And then once you've like moved your way into assisting or associating, that is an easy pathway to kind of pave by just like letting people know. I also do my own work and some associates don't. Some associates really like to maintain and it can be incredibly lucrative. Like there are people that like only work with one director all the time and take care of all of their shows, and they make a really great living and they're fulfilled and happy, and they have a savings account, and that's fantastic.

[17:39] Katie Spelman: Uh, and there are people that are now they have insurance, like now they have healthcare or a lot cheaper healthcare, because I guess they probably were paying for it before. But now then there's like the associates that are using it as a way to kind of which is what I was doing was to like absorb the skill set and then also understand how like a large commercial scale production functions and to also just build relationships so that I can kind of like I also do this.

[17:47] Katie Spelman: I also do this. And what's w I don't think that there's one direct path. I think assisting regionally is a great way to kind of get your feet wet. I think um assisting out in the commercial circuit is also a great way to get your feet wet and to see how like the machine of it works because it's a very a commercial production is a very different beast, it's being engineered to run for a long time on a profit, so it's like a very different kind of build.

[18:33] Katie Spelman: So you have to like make it artful, but also reproducible, and yeah, there's a different kind of constructivism that goes on in there. Um, but what I found the most useful, and the thing that has become the most lucrative for me is that I became friends with other associates. Um, and not necessarily, I mean, I became friends with people that do the same thing as me, but I became friends with associate directors who are now directing their own work.

[18:41] Katie Spelman: I became friends with associate scenic designers who now design their own work. I became friends with associate costume designers who are great costume designers in their own right. So you kind of find the people that you maybe want to collaborate with in the future that are working at the same level as you. Three, the three of us that were the original associates on Moulin Rouge just did a workshop of a new musical together in October.

[19:21] Katie Spelman: So it was the associate director, me, and the uh music director. And we we like cast it in 10 minutes and had like a schedule planned out, and we were ready to go. And our producer was like, You guys are kind of freakishly fast at this. And we were like, Well, we've been working together for five years. It's just been on a different project. So we like I understand how Ashley works, I understand what she needs from me.

[19:46] Katie Spelman: I understand when I can be in a different room and when we have to be in the same room. I understand when Kian needs somebody to be singing something, and I need to move them off of this thing. And we just had like a shorthand and a real deep level of trust and respect for each other because we'd been doing it for so long together. And I have found, I think there's an argument to be made of like just make your own work and then ultimately get picked up to do uh X, Y, and Z.

[20:09] Katie Spelman: And that's how a lot of choreographers got there. Like Sonia made her own work and then became Sonia, and now her work is everywhere. And Hoggett did the same thing. So those people didn't necessarily go through like the assisting route. Um, and I think that's a great way to go about it. I have found in my experience, like I've really valued finding those collaborators, yeah, uh, that are in my age range and um of a similar, like uh at a similar level, looking to do the similar thing of moving up a level because I've found really great people to jump with, which has been very rewarding for me specifically.

[20:48] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, it's such a wonderful reminder of at least in the theatrical space, and also just I would argue artistic spaces, or at least the ones that I want to be a part of is the collaboration in it, right? Like, even if you are doing a solo show, you still have a human being who's doing your lights, and you still have a human being who's doing your sounds, and you still have a human being who's giving you your outfits.

[21:06] Jennifer Apple: Like you're still incorporating other human beings, even at the most minimal of levels, even if you're doing something on your own, that it really does take a village. And certainly as you are building something that is at larger scale, which a musical will be at some capacity, you will require other people who have different skill sets and or expertise that you don't in order to make it the best version of itself.

[21:26] Jennifer Apple: And to find your people is, I would argue one of the most important things that we can invest our time and energy into and being really curious about the people that we work really well with. You know, I've often given this example on this podcast of just like there's a reason Wes Anderson always works with Bill Murray, not because like, I mean, yes, there's no one else who's like Bill Murray, but like they have a shorthand that I imagine when they're on set, it's just we know how to work together.

[21:51] Jennifer Apple: We love working together. This is something we both see the world in a similar way that now we're able to play off of each other and the art then becomes more expansive because we like value each other's opinions and whatever it is, you know. Again, it's not like somebody else couldn't be there and giving some beautiful insight and bouncing off also, but why not find those people and work with them if you can?

[22:10] Katie Spelman: Right. And if you're in a creative process, being in a room with people you trust is absolutely priceless, right? And if you're in a room with people that you can disagree with in a friendly way, that is absolutely priceless. And that was some that's something that I've been finding more and more and more, right? And there is something to be said for, you know, like getting hired on a creative team that I've never worked with anybody on the creative team before.

[22:38] Katie Spelman: That was a sentence structure that was abhorrent, but you know what I mean. Um it is really like nerve-wracking. And and I will, and I'll say this because I'm overly honest with other people and myself, but like I'll hold back, or I won't speak up on an idea, or I won't like venture the weird idea that might lead to another idea if I think it's gonna if I if I think it's gonna like lessen my foothold in this group of people.

[23:07] Katie Spelman: Um and I don't feel that way with people that I've worked with on an associate level before. So we were doing we were doing this Desert Rose musical, and I would turn to Ashley and be like, does it work? And she goes, No, but I don't really know why it doesn't work. And I don't want to tell you how to fix it, but I I but maybe we should just like sit with it, or like maybe we should think about it, like instead of wasting time just like looking at it over and over and over again.

[23:21] Katie Spelman: Maybe we should just like leave it for a minute, think about it, and come back. And it was like that kind of trust to be able to be like, I don't think I did it. I don't think it's right, I don't know how to fix it. And for her to be like, Yeah, you're right, it's not right, and I don't know how to fix it either. So let's move on for now. And that's a level of trust that you can't really find anywhere else, uh, other than like familiarity and repetition, right?

[23:57] Katie Spelman: 100%. Um, and that is that's where like the good stuff comes from, because you're able to kind of be like, oh, what if it's this? And then we try it, and then the three of us all tilt our heads and we're like, that's really bad. It's a terrible idea. We're like, Well, we tried it, all right, let's try the next thing, you know, like that that like being able to like hate your work with someone is really special.

[24:19] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, no, it very much is. You're seen for all of it, and not just like the quote unquote successes or the the highlight reel. I think that's really that is especially in the like the process of the creation rather than like this is set and this is what exists exists, and now we have to maintain it. You know, this is like a different situation of growing and creating.

[24:36] Jennifer Apple: I'm curious about the like, and people find this potentially on the actor side, if like you've stood by for a while, or you've been an understudy for a while, or you've been a cover for a while to break out of that potential um path that maybe the industry sees you as like, oh, you're an incredible understudy and standby. We don't want to lose you because not many people can do it at the level that you are. How do how does one in theory break out of the associate choreography role, if that's what one is wanting to do, to then be the lead choreographer on a project?

[25:08] Katie Spelman: Um that's an interesting question. It it depends. I mean, it's super circumstantial, of course. And then this is where I'll start to talk about the fact that like gender really comes into play quite a bit. So it it's pretty common to see a man in this industry be an associate once or maybe twice, and then all of a sudden they're getting plucked to choreograph the next big thing.

[25:32] Katie Spelman: Um whereas uh I I think I associated on seven things in New York before I was given this opportunity. Wow. Um, in addition to like a very lengthy regional life and a very lengthy, like I had have a very long resume, you know.

[25:54] Katie Spelman: Um and it is, I wish it was a myth, but it is 100% like I had to I had to do twice as much to get half as far, right? Uh and that, and then that entirely depends on um somebody pulling you up if you're a woman. Uh so I really lucked out, I did Rent Live, I was Sonia's associate choreographer on Rent Live. Michael Groff and I really liked each other. My name came up when they were talking about hiring choreographers for The Notebook, and he's like, Oh, I like Katie.

[26:25] Katie Spelman: And like that's that's how I got the job, you know. And he was a powerful enough person to be able to say, like, I'm gonna hire a choreographer with no Broadway credits, and no one was gonna shake a stick at it because it's Michael Grife, right? So and I I was like given an opportunity by that person and pulled up, and it led to many more opportunities, and it made it possible for me to leave Moulin Rouge and stop being an associate.

[26:52] Katie Spelman: But that my fate was kind of entirely in the hands of somebody more powerful than me, extending a hand and bringing me up, which I I guess is always how it works, no matter what, like that's always gonna be the dynamic. But it makes it made me incredibly aware of being able to do that for other people.

[27:11] Katie Spelman: Uh and it made me incredibly aware of like I I try to be in I try to always give the best person the job, but when I'm hiring an associate, I'm almost always looking at women. Just because there are so few of them, right? And I just kind of want the industry to look half and half, and it and it really doesn't, like it really in an aggressive way does not. So trying to help out on that scale, and like may it may I be so lucky as to be a director someday that can pull an associate that wants to be a choreographer out of the associate pool and be like, hey, I think you should have a shot at this, and people are gonna trust you because I'm established and they are not gonna question me.

[27:52] Katie Spelman: And like that, I think it's basically like using your power for good, right? Um but in terms I mean, and then I think a lot of it has to do with like friendship, right?

[28:03] Katie Spelman: And you'll find like a lot of folks that are like there's like a very deliberate, if unintentional, boys' club in the industry, and like, oh, like all the boys that hang out together, and one of them is an associate, and oh, you're doing that, I'd love to choreograph it, and then all of a sudden, like that person has been pulled up. And I don't want to say that there's anything wrong with that. I actually don't think that there is anything wrong with that. I just think that um it's skewed in terms of numbers and gender in a very aggressive way. I don't think there's anything wrong with somebody meeting an associate thinking they're extraordinary and asking them to choreograph the next thing.

I think that's amazing. I think that's the only way we get new choreographers, right? I think my issue with it is that it happens one time for a woman to every six times for a man, yeah. Right? Like the average age of a man getting their choreographic Broadway debut is like 30, and uh the average age of a woman getting their choreographic debut is like 43.

[29:01] Jennifer Apple: Wow. Do you feel like that obviously has reflections on the behind the scenes of it? How do you feel? And this is a you know an unfair question because it's like this is an individual like case by case individual situation, but like how does that necessarily reflect on stages too by just having more than I think uh well, I think you'll you've seen it and been rubbed the wrong way by it, I'm sure. When you see there have been a slew of shows in the last few years that are female stories, like story about a woman with an all-male creative team, like top to bottom director, choreographer, writer, composer, lyricist, set designer, costume designer, lighting designer, sound designer, not one woman behind the table.

[29:53] Katie Spelman: And I think it shows up on stage, you know, and what I think is super ironic about that is um 60 to 66% of the theater going audience is women.

[30:09] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[30:10] Katie Spelman: So to not try to cater to the majority of your dynamic seems seems irresponsible to me from like a financial perspective. But um, which probably to be the thing that like you know is the deciding factor for a lot of these commercial you know, shows anyway, but yeah. Right? And and there's something interesting about like I mean, I can tell like when the women are just so two dimensional, you don't know what to do, and you're just kind of like, okay, great. And then I open my program and I'm like, yep. Like it's so it's so transparent. And then you see things like I think The Notebook is one of five musicals ever with book lyrics and music all written by women, um, to premiere on Broadway. And it, you know, I got stopped in the street by like a group of women from Dallas yesterday that were like, Did you work on the show?

Like standing outside with my little notepad, you know. And I was like, I did, I'm the choreographer, and they just like they gushed and they were like, We flew here for this, and we like we planned a girls' trip, and it was like seven of that, and you know, and they were like, We loved it, it was our favorite thing we've ever seen, we're coming back, you know.

[31:16] Katie Spelman: And it's that thing of like, cool, but like all the women on stage are they're multifaceted and three dimensional, and they're they're they're people, you know, and then the majority of your audience can connect to those people, and I think that that's I think that that should just be like the bare minimum, right? Is to at least make sure you have half and half behind the table.

[31:38] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[31:38] Katie Spelman: Um, I started doing this thing on Instagram this year that I think my my friend Whitney and I might turn it into like a actual account next year. But I just started doing a thing this year where after a show opens on Broadway, I post the gender breakdown of the creative team the next day. Just to kind of show it. Um because I think anecdotally people are like, Oh, I know a female lighting designer, oh I know a female senior designer, but I post it every morn every morning after. And it I don't think I think there's been one that's been more than half. And that I've had a lot of folks kind of responding and being like, I don't think I knew it was this bad. I'm like, of course you don't, because why like who reports on that, right?

[32:25] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[32:25] Katie Spelman: And I don't think that it's anything that anybody thinks about. I remember getting really grumpy about it when Hamilton was getting lauded for like incredible diversity on stage, which 100% amazing, thrilling, game changer, all male team behind the table. And I was like, Yeah. You know, the first yeah, the first thing somebody, a woman sings in that song with the solo line is about being useless, isn't it? Or hopeless or helpless, whichever. And I'm like, okay, that was not not great, you know. And it's it's you know, you had one woman behind the table. There might have been some tweaking that could have been useful, right?

[33:06] Katie Spelman: To just be like, oh, okay, and have like a running joke with the theater that I work at in Chicago as a director all the time. Um, and they're like, Well, what's your pitch? What's your pitch for Once? And I was like, my pitch is the woman is a person. And then I'm gonna and then I'm gonna direct Once and then doing Music Man there and a few and they were like, What's your what's your take on Music Man? I was like, my take is that Marianne's a person, and then I'm gonna direct Music Man like I don't know what to tell you but this like every woman in musical theater is written to be like two dimensional or like of service to a man or yeah yeah 100% and um it's just kind of like we need to get out of that and like the first step is female writers right but in lieu of being able to get more female writers into the room we should be putting more female designers behind a table that can be like you know and somebody said something really lovely to me about um The Notebook we have uh Mia Neal is our wig designer she's amazing she's uh she did the I think she did the wigs for Black Panther no no big deal um she's just a legend and one of my friends who is black was like she does that scene in the rain with her wig and it gets wet and then the next time you see her she's in a different wig that's curly and I was like yeah and they were like you have no idea what that meant to me to see and I was like that that's super that's exciting and exquisite and I'm gonna pass the compliment along but it's also like we're dealing with we have many women of color on stage so we hired a female woman of color that that's the wig designer because she understands what that is and she's able to represent it accurately on stage right and then the way that that like the tiniest little thing impacts somebody who can see themselves on stage.

[35:00] Jennifer Apple: Yes.

[35:01] Katie Spelman: The ripple effect. Wild, you know. And so like she was like, I cried a little when she came out in that next scene, and her hair was curly. And I was like, that's really beautiful. That makes me really happy. And also, like, it should it should be the it should be the bar. Bare minimum. It should be the bare minimum.

[35:17] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[35:18] Katie Spelman: Um, I want to switch gears into like your job. Like, what are you doing as a choreographer from inception to creation? Like, how do you work in your process? Are you somebody who like when you actually have the artists in front of you and have their bodies and the way that they move and their chemistry, then you're able to create? Are you somebody who comes in with it all there, see how it fits, and then adapt? Like, what is your style with it?

[35:45] Katie Spelman: I think um I pride myself on being kind of a chameleon, which I which I would like to maintain going forward, which is that like I I'm gonna try and pull my movement out of the story uh and out of the construct of the piece. So if it's a piece that needs to be told through dance, then I'm thrilled to tell it through dance and then figure out the rules of what that means and how to um intelligently and subtly integrate dance moving in and out of text and in and out of song. So if it's a dance show, I'll probably pre-production, I'll probably pre-pro a lot of it with friends or with bodies, and then I'll go into the room, set it on the bodies that I have, and if it doesn't work on the bodies that I have, then adjust and change.

I always try to leave room for um individuality and uh collaboration. So if I'm gonna choreograph a number, I'm never gonna choreograph it fully. I'm always gonna leave a little space for like, and then we should come up with something here that feels that feels like this, and I think it feels like this. Does anybody have any thoughts to kind of make sure that everybody feels like they've got skin in the game?

[36:55] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, um, and also like I can't choreograph 25 people in my head. I have a have a pretty decent photographic mind, but not that photographic, right? And being able to collaborate with people is why I do what I do. So I I enjoy very much um my cast at Barrington Stage teased me quite a bit about this, but uh I would be a we'd we'd vote on things sometimes. I'd be like, who likes this hand? And half the room would raise their hand, I'm like, and who likes this hand? And no one would raise their hand, I'm like, great, democracy wins, we're gonna use the left. I I don't care, it's a hand, so like let's move on.

[37:33] Katie Spelman: Um so if it's like a big dance show like that, I'll definitely pre-pro it in the room. If it's something like The Notebook, which has uh arguably no dance in the play, but has a lot of um story through movement and staging. Uh Shelley and Michael and I did a lab together um with bodies, uh some of whom were the folks in the show that we that were available, and some of whom weren't. And we just learned a lot about what works and what doesn't, and then went into Chicago kind of with that idea moving forward, and you know, we tripped and stumbled a couple of times, or I did. Uh they don't trip and stumble, they're fucking amazing. So I so like a couple of times, like, oh, I don't know if that worked. Oh, it felt a little bit like too much, oh, it was a little too on the nose, but we kind of figured that vocabulary out together as like co-editors of bodies in the space.

[38:21] Katie Spelman: Um, and uh and then that would be like I interfaced with Becca a lot and Ingrid a lot to kind of ask because they've been writing this show for 10 years. I'm like, yes, is that how you want it to feel? Is that how it's supposed to feel? Does it look the way you wanted it to look, or does and you know, that kind of thing? And um, so a very different process, and it's not a dance show, and there are not dancers in the show, which is a really fun challenge for me. Um then you have the ones that are kind of in the middle where you'll have some dancers and non-dancers, and you know, you have to kind of like arrange. Uh I think that's just kind of about meeting the people in the room where they're at.

So many people, I think, have been harmed by a choreographer in their time or like scarred by being told that they can't dance. My friend Julia talked about it. I'm one of them. I am totally one of them. Everybody's had it's it's unconscionable to me. My friend Julia was telling me about this audition that she had for Kinky Boots where the choreographer literally held up her head shot and yelled at the director in the room and was like, I can't hide her. And I was like, that's unbelievable to me.

[39:30] Katie Spelman: Um but you know, it also goes, I mean, just like speaking on that too, it's like the the way in which that then ripples into the the people that enter into rooms and like just debilitating of their confidence when you know, I never claim to be a dancer dancer. I will never claim to be that, but I can move. I have had to as a musical theater performer in my life. I've had to pick a choreography and I've had to, you know, uh put my body through things that I maybe wouldn't have otherwise chosen to do on my own. And it might take me a learning curve to do so, but that isn't to say that I can't or that I won't, or that I want to be made a fool of when I'm on that stage, you best believe I'm gonna do it. So why are we not, you know, somehow respecting people's process and levels of um meeting different forms of expression? It's just it really is a missed opportunity for allowing all of us to be collaborating, truly.

[40:26] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and I think that also too is like if you are a choreographer and you've auditioned the show and you know who's in your show, then you choreograph to those bodies. You don't choreograph the bodies that you wish you had, right?

[40:38] Katie Spelman: Yeah.

[40:38] Jennifer Apple: Um, and I I find that trend uh more prevalent than I wish it was of choreographers being like, well, I'm just gonna let three people look terrible, and then my three favorite dancers are gonna be in the front living their best lives.

[40:51] Katie Spelman: Yeah.

[40:52] Jennifer Apple: Congrats, you're really good at choreographing on incredible dancers.

[40:56] Katie Spelman: But at the same time, if like you you failed the you you failed the assignment, right? The assignment is to tell the story, and the assignment is to embody the music, right? And you can do that with anybody.

[41:10] Jennifer Apple: A hundred percent.

[41:11] Katie Spelman: And also, like that is to have people on a stage. Like, we're not a monolith as human beings. So what what an opportunity also to be able to show expression through multiple vessels on your stage who are all able to tell stories in different ways.

[41:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, and you know, like, and we've been getting lovely feedback on this from The Notebook, but they're like, you know, it's so interesting that like they all just kind of like turn their heads at the same time and you understand.

[41:36] Katie Spelman: And it's like it's not that deep. Like it is it is beautiful to watch the New York City ballet, and I would love to choreograph for the New York City Ballet dancers, and that would be a very different piece than what I'm doing right now, right? But my my friend William and I were joking about this. I was like, what I feel like no one understands or they have been harmed by someone who does not think this way is that like if you look bad, I look bad.

[42:01] Katie Spelman: Yeah. I'm like, I'm not gonna look bad. I'm a woman. If I fail once, I can't work again, right? Like, I'm gonna make sure that you look good, because if you look bad, I look bad. And that's what like I can't let that happen because then maybe neither of us work again, right? So the stakes are much higher for women, and my friend William's a man of color, and he's like the state like you just like can't fuck up if you're a woman or just so much pressure. I mean, like obviously there's already so much pressure in a commercial space to make the money, but then adding on these layers, it's just of like you carry the I carry like every woman under 40 getting an opportunity on my back. Do you know what I mean? And it's just like that's so wild and so and like so and like I think it's the reason that my hip hurts, do you know what I mean? Um I'm like, oh I'm putting all that stress in one place.

[42:44] Jennifer Apple: Yeah, your acupuncturist is like, um, what's happening here?

[42:48] Katie Spelman: And I'm like, it's not it's not physical, don't worry. Um, I'm just falling apart from the inside. Uh the idea that like you aren't gonna choreograph to the people you have in the room just tells me that there's there's like a lack of presence there, right? And our job is all about being present, and like if you're always choreographing for the New York City ballet, whether or not they're in the room with you, you're harming everyone. You're harming the story, you're harming the people by making them feel less than. Um and and it's always so wild to me too, like, you know, Marianne Plunkett is one of the leads in this show, and she is perhaps the best actor on the planet, who's to say, that in my opinion. And you know, she'll like and everybody like everybody makes jokes, like, oh well, I'm not a dan I don't know how to do you know, everybody has a defense mechanism because somebody told them they were bad at it. Do you know what I mean?

[43:42] Katie Spelman: And she there's a there's a number that she's uh that is like about her. No spoilers. Uh, and she's like, Well, what if I do this? And what if I do that? And I was like, Marianne, literally, anything you want, and I will move the bodies around you. Like, this is a number about you and your experience, and like we I will move them around you, and that's fine.

[44:04] Jennifer Apple: What a gift you're giving her too, though, for learning to reclaim what has unfortunately been told or taught, and then integrated into her body and mind and heart and spirit about the way in which she is as an artist.

[44:17] Katie Spelman: So, what an opportunity I just want to offer. Like, you're giving healing by allowing somebody their autonomy in space and recognizing that they're able to take up that space.

[44:26] Jennifer Apple: Right.

[44:27] Katie Spelman: Which I appreciate. And then, like this the this recurring theme in our conversation, it also feels like the bare minimum to me. Do you know what I mean? Like it doesn't feel like a kindness to me. Um, but it's also that thing too where it's like I can't fucking act like Marianne Plunkett. Do you know what I mean? Like that's that's like a next level uh like that's like an ethereal transcendent that she has, and like I'm gonna try to move my work to meet her.

[44:51] Jennifer Apple: And like the idea, the idea that everybody has to come to meet your work is the antithesis of collaboration, I think is maybe what I'm trying to get at.

[45:01] Katie Spelman: So I think anybody that's like you're in the back because I can't hide you and you can't do this thing, so you should feel bad about yourself. That means that you're not collaborative, and therefore you shouldn't be working in a collaborative art form. 100%.

[45:14] Jennifer Apple: Are there certain um like apps or um notebooks or things that like on the tactical side of things that you have found really helpful in keeping track of, say, 25 dancers while you're working, or you know, laying out your actual choreography on a piece of and and sharing it with like what are the tools that you actually use?

[45:32] Katie Spelman: I don't use it as much when I'm the lead choreographer, but uh but stage right was a godsend when that that came out. It's like a charting app made by former associates of Strowman's, I think, that are that are really smart um and like a really great way to kind of keep track of the show. I think all 800 productions of Moulin Rouge are are on that now of like the one that I did on Broadway, then got like a I like recharted it for Australia because we moved to track and da-da-da. Um that app I found really helpful.

[46:03] Katie Spelman: My specific choreographic process has been pretty analog. I like write down the eight counts and write down what happens. Um old school and arduous, I love it. Also, and I don't know how old you are, so I'm not gonna date you.

[46:17] Jennifer Apple: I'll date my own.

[46:17] Katie Spelman: I think we're the same age. Not really the same age. You know, like I had a flip phone for all of college.

[46:22] Jennifer Apple: So like the idea that you can record stuff is still kind of like delightful and novel to me.

[46:27] Katie Spelman: So I do use a lot of video. I have like 10 of these hard drives that just have like, oh, a rehearsal of a thing, a rehearsal of a thing. I like try to film everything when I'm in a process for something, just so I can keep it and like I'm and I like I recycle too if like something got cut from a show, and I'm like, oh, but I really like that phrase, but then I can like pick it back up and use it somewhere else, right?

[46:52] Jennifer Apple: Um, and that that has been useful to me.

[46:55] Katie Spelman: In terms of like tool tools that I've found really helpful. I started a I just finished, but I started a project in 2018 called a draft project that was a New Year's resolution essentially to like make something every month and release it in an imperfect state. I did it on Instagram because it disappears.

[47:14] Katie Spelman: Uh, and I meant to do it once a month for the year of 2018, and I I wound up finding it so effective and it's it's like energy bleeding into my work so much that I did it for five years.

[47:28] Jennifer Apple: Wow.

[47:29] Katie Spelman: And it just fin the December, I think, of last year was the fifth the fifth year, and I finished it, but like made one every month for five years and like released it undone, like unfinished, which um and was it just like a to like a choreography to a piece?

[47:44] Katie Spelman: Was it sometimes yeah, sometimes it was choreography, sometimes it was like something silly, you know, and sometimes it was like choreography on the best dancer I know. It's like Tilly Krueger nailing it, you know, and then sometimes it was like my friends that I was at a wedding at, like going down the stairs in a funny way, right?

[47:59] Jennifer Apple: Amazing.

[47:59] Katie Spelman: But just the idea that like I found in my process what I was struggling with in 2018 when I made that decision was like I was so scared of it not being perfect that I couldn't even start. And I know that a lot of people struggle with that.

[48:14] Jennifer Apple: So I found this really useful, and I have passed the idea on to some friends, and they have found it helpful of just like sometimes you just like get in a room, make a thing, know that it's not gonna be perfect, and then be like, I made the thing.

[48:28] Katie Spelman: And like the thing the parts of your creative process that it cracks open are really, really exciting and surprising. Uh and I think I think it came out of the end of my journey with the artist's way, which I also found really useful.

[48:47] Jennifer Apple: Great. Thank you for sharing those. I love a tip, a trick, and a tool, um, for being able to like try new things.

[48:55] Katie Spelman: So those are all really helpful. And frankly, also, you know, so much of what we talked about here on many of these episodes is an art when Empowered Artist Collective was an incubator program.

[49:05] Jennifer Apple: We literally had a component of our programming that was art and process.

[49:08] Katie Spelman: Like that was literally art shares.

[49:10] Jennifer Apple: And it was people who did not, it's not about outcome, it's like let's you have this thing, it's bubbling up in you in some way, or maybe you've been working on this and you just need somebody to bear witness to what you've created.

[49:20] Katie Spelman: Um and that in of itself is such a scary thing because we've been taught that we can only share once it's a pr it's finalized.

[49:27] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[49:27] Katie Spelman: Exactly. And just to really cultivate that skill is so rare. Um and so I think that's such a wonderful what a gift you've given to yourself and also for other people now who have witnessed like, oh this is what it is.

[49:39] Jennifer Apple: And also I would imagine for you to be able to look back in like an archival way of being like, oh yeah, actually so much of my growth or so much of my creative process has come from little bits of the things that I put into the ether or I was expressing or sharing or cultivating.

[49:52] Katie Spelman: Um and having that as kind of like a living breathing journal in some way, I imagine is super cool.

[49:58] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[49:58] Katie Spelman: Looking back on it in December, I got like very over like very overly emotional about it. I was like, oh wow, like I really really 60 of these. That's insane.

[50:07] Jennifer Apple: Beautiful.

[50:08] Katie Spelman: That's beautiful. Um is there anything on your heart or mind or spirit um that I didn't ask or that it that you'd like to share in regards to this conversation?

[50:17] Katie Spelman: No, it's so lovely to talk to another lady creative. It's so it's so nice to be able to kind of have a honest conversation about like what's going on in our industry and to know that it's like getting better, but it's getting better at a really slow pace and that can be frustrating.

[50:31] Jennifer Apple: Um no the only thing on my heart right now is kind of what we talked about is somewhere in the middle of this is just that it's like the every time I get slightly more I guess quote unquote we could say successful because I don't really know what that means.

[50:44] Katie Spelman: But like no one knows.

[50:45] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[50:46] Katie Spelman: Every time that happens, I try to figure out is there a way that I can use that to help pull someone else up.

[50:53] Jennifer Apple: Yeah.

[50:53] Katie Spelman: And I think that that that's something that I I want to hold on to and that I want other people to do as well. Is instead of just like reveling in it and being like, I did it, we did it, Joe. Is to be like, that's amazing, celebrate it, be inside of it, and then like look down the ladder and see if there's anybody that you can help up a few rungs, because I think that's the only way we're gonna change it.

[51:17] Jennifer Apple: For sure.

[51:18] Katie Spelman: And also that your success is my success.

[51:20] Jennifer Apple: Like the actual, and again, that word is so yeah, I've been trying to debunk that for as long as I've been doing this and I don't know what it means.

[51:29] Katie Spelman: I think that like Jennifer Lawrence meme, I'm just like, what do you mean?

[51:33] Jennifer Apple: 100%.

[51:34] Katie Spelman: 100%.

[51:35] Jennifer Apple: But it really is like, you know, if if the people that I am values wise aligned with are doing the the work and finally being seen in the rooms and are finally being hired to do the things, then that is showing me in some sort of way that the rooms are slowly becoming more primed to people like myself or others like myself who are also in the same sphere of we are value aligned um with the kind of work that we're hoping to be a part of.

[52:03] Katie Spelman: And so that's and also just getting away from the scarcity mindset of it all that like, yeah, there are real logistics around like there are only so many positions at this current juncture in time, but also we've been fed the narrative that there really is not enough to go around and to sit in the smallness of that rather than embrace the fact that like okay, sure, the system that we are operating in right now is flawed and broken, and in order to eventually hopefully shift it, we have to start yeah, pulling each other up through it in order to make the difference slowly, although we wish it were faster.

[52:32] Jennifer Apple: Um, our first it was faster, you know.

[52:35] Katie Spelman: 100%.

[52:36] Jennifer Apple: Um, I'm so grateful to you. I I I love the fact that you see the world so honestly and you're not afraid to to call it out.

[52:47] Katie Spelman: It could easily be the case that you are in this position now, making your like choreography debut on a Broadway commercial stage, and because of that, you don't want to say anything that could potentially rock the boat in any way, and you want to sit down and be quiet and just be really appeasing of all of the things.

[53:03] Jennifer Apple: And I I really think that frankly, what is going to continue propelling your career is the fact that you are somebody who is unafraid to say the things that need to be said and are looking out for those people who are around you and is willing you're somebody who's willing to like be like, huh? Are there other people who know also when we can collaborate together?

[53:24] Katie Spelman: Like, I just the humility in that and the self-awareness in that and the um putting down actual feet and stakes into knowing what you are and how you operate in a room, I think is something so incredible.

[53:38] Jennifer Apple: Um, and so thank you for the work that you do and how you do it.

[53:42] Katie Spelman: Exactly what those women who stopped you on the street have said, which is this really impacted us.

[53:47] Jennifer Apple: And to know for me as a woman that there's many women, frankly, behind this story telling that in a very specific, purposeful way is is impactful and you can feel that.

[54:00] Katie Spelman: Um so I'm just I'm really excited for you in this journey. Congratulations.

[54:03] Jennifer Apple: Um so thank you so much for all that you do. Um, is if anybody wants to work with you, find you, reach out, have questions. What within your boundaries is the best way for people to reach out to you?

[54:15] Katie Spelman: Yes, you better ask me about my boundaries. Absolutely. Um, I have found that my best, the best way to reach out to me and to get in touch with me in in a creative aspect is Instagram. I just find it like the easiest way to my email inbox, I feel like is for business.

[54:30] Katie Spelman: Um so I'm I'm at Katie Spelman on Instagram, K the number eight. My last name is Spelman with one owl. Uh and then if you don't have Instagram and you want to get in touch with me, you can go through my website, which is just Katie Spelman.com.

[54:45] Jennifer Apple: And you can come see the next one. Thank you so much for being in the space and for this conversation.

[54:49] Katie Spelman: Of course.

[54:51] Jennifer Apple: That's it for today's episode. I hope you walk away with some fresh insights, feel inspired, and a little more empowered to take the next step on your artistic journey.

[54:59] Jennifer Apple: Remember, whether it's a small shift or a big breakthrough, every step forward counts. You've got this, and we're here cheering you on every step of the way.

[55:08] Jennifer Apple: If you found today's episode helpful, don't forget to hit subscribe so you'll never miss out on the discussions we have each week.

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[55:31] Jennifer Apple: Be sure to tag @empoweredartistcollective and @jenniferappel underscore so we can see what's landing for you and keep the conversation going.

[55:39] Jennifer Apple: As always, thank you for being here. Thank you for listening, and thank you for being a part of this incredible community.

[55:46] Jennifer Apple: Keep creating, keep thriving, stay empowered. I'm Jennifer Apple. Until next time.