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[0:00] Tim Rice: Hello, this is Tim Rice, and this is episode 49 of my podcast, Get On to My Cloud.

[0:16] Tim Rice: Having been working recently on a potential pop single, my tribute to, or at least my acknowledgement of, the forthcoming G7 Political Summit in Cornwall, which is a song entitled G7, I found myself reminiscing about my early days in the music business when I was a management trainee at EMI Records, the company that then modestly built itself as the greatest recording organization in the world, which in 1966 it was.

[0:49] Tim Rice: Incidentally, the story behind G7, the song I wrote with Peter Hobbs, was featured in Get Onto My Cloud No. 48, in which you will speedily gather that the song is not an outpouring of praise for global leaders, but rather a tribute to the magic and history of the number seven.

[1:09] Tim Rice: But back to my formative years in the pop record industry. EMI was quite justified in 1966 to print that slogan, the greatest recording organization in the world, on its record sleeves and in its advertisements.

[1:23] Tim Rice: Under the energetic and imaginative leadership of Sir Joseph Lockwood, it had become a powerful force in virtually every aspect of the music business.

[1:33] Tim Rice: It had its own studios at Abbey Road. Not then the world famous tourist attraction it became after the Beatles' 1969 album featuring the Fab 4 on the Zebra Crossing, just outside the studio.

[1:47] Tim Rice: EMI also owned factories that actually manufactured the discs and the gramophones on which they were played. It owned shops where they were sold, and it owned the copyrights of vast numbers of songs recorded by both themselves and their rivals.

[2:03] Tim Rice: Its three major British pop labels were Columbia, Parlophone, and his master's voice. It also owned the US-based Capitol Records and acted as UK licensor for many other American labels, notably Tamla Motown.

[2:19] Tim Rice: It had many classical music and non-music interests too, but to 99% of the outside world, EMI meant pop.

[2:29] Tim Rice: The only record companies of remotely similar stature in the UK were Decker, Phillips and Pye. EMI House, then a recent addition to the hitherto tasteful Manchester Square, was a mildly hideous but practical six-story building almost totally devoted to the music side of the company's business.

[2:52] Tim Rice: This was where I learnt about the nuts and bolts of the recording industry. Technically, I was a management trainee. Really, one of half a dozen glorified office boys.

[3:03] Tim Rice: We wore suits and ties and clopped in by 9 a.m. whether or not we'd been out late the night before at a concert or club, allegedly working or talent spotting.

[3:15] Tim Rice: The music business then was still extremely conservative, at least within the empires of the major record companies, despite the fact that the swinging 60s were well underway.

[3:26] Tim Rice: All this was changing fast as independent record producers were beginning to finance recordings which they then released or sold to the major companies, replacing the system of in-house producers, of whom EMI had had a distinguished roster.

[3:43] Tim Rice: George Martin and several others, rightly miffed at the paltry incomes they received for producing huge hit records from the Beatles downwards, had recently broken away from EMI to form their own company, enabling them to earn more than a fixed salary from their creative efforts.

[4:01] Tim Rice: Even so, in 1966, great recording managers such as Norrie Paramour and Wally Ridley were still operating from offices within EMI House.

[4:12] Tim Rice: I thus joined a company in a state of some flux, but still the world's number one. This was thanks primarily to the Beatles, whose run of staggering success since late 1962 showed no signs whatsoever of decline.

[4:27] Tim Rice: In fact, they were getting bigger all the time. As the journalist Maureen Cleve put it so wisely, the world was then divided into two groups, the Beatles and everybody else.

[4:39] Tim Rice: But the Beatles were nothing like EMI's only strength. A myriad merely mortal acts, some only a little less potent in terms of record sales, such as the Beach Boys, The Hollies, and several Tamla Motown stars, kept the company in the charts between Beatle releases.

[4:56] Tim Rice: Although it was amazing how the entire EMI workforce seemed to measure time by the weeks since or until the next record by John, Paul, George and Ringo.

[5:09] Tim Rice: My first morning of management training was interrupted by the summons of the building's entire staff, over 200 people, to a pep talk in the company's conference room.

[5:21] Tim Rice: The management were obviously concerned about the fact that since the Beatles last number one at the end of 1965, We Can Work It Out and Day Tripper, only Manfred Mann, who were about to lose their charismatic lead singer Paul Jones and defect to Fontana, had taken EMI to the top of the singles charts.

[5:41] Tim Rice: Frank Sinatra, of all people, was the current number one with Strangers in the Night, which must have had a lot of the more ancient executives wondering if they'd been right all along, and maybe we should perhaps unload the old beat group.

[5:54] Tim Rice: Bob Dylan on CBS and the Rolling Stones on Decker were running the Beatles extremely close in sales and cultural impact. We were exhorted to find new talent, whatever our department.

[6:08] Tim Rice: After a week or two in the main zoo, I requested a more specific role, and to my delight, I was posted to the A&R department. This was hitting the jackpot.

[6:17] Tim Rice: I could have been sent to the post room or to the classical floor. A&R, the artists and repertoire division, was where hit records were actually conceived, where stars came to discuss their next sessions.

[6:30] Tim Rice: The king of the department was Norrie Paramour, whose greatest days as a record producer had been in the late 50s and early 60s, thanks primarily to his work with Cliff Richard and the Shadows, both still highly important EMI recording acts.

[6:54] Tim Rice: Seeing and hearing Cliff and the Shadows at work was easily the highlight, even if the first Cliff Richard session I attended was his re-recording in German of his recent success, All My Love.

[7:06] Tim Rice: The first English language hit recording I witnessed was produced by Norrie's nephew David, then my immediate boss, and performed by Cliff Bennett and the Rebel Rousers.

[7:17] Tim Rice: It was a cover of a song from the forthcoming Beatles album Revolver. EMI obviously had the inside track as far as forthcoming Beatles albums were concerned, and usually managed to beat other companies in the race to cover new Lennon McCartney songs.

[7:33] Tim Rice: Cliff Bennett and his band took Got to Get You Into My Life to number three in the charts.

[7:33] ♪ Musical number: "Got to Get You Into My Life" — performed by Cliff Bennett and the Rebel Rousers ♪

[10:07] Tim Rice: After a few weeks, I was given the opportunity to make some creative contributions of my own. I was urged by Norrie and his team to get out and about searching for new talent.

[10:18] Tim Rice: Discovery of same could lead to my being allowed to produce an actual recording. An audition session, at least. My EMI card got me into a lot of London clubs that would not normally have admitted non-entities.

[10:32] Tim Rice: I generally had a great time gorping at established stars, but unearthed no new ones. We were encouraged to go further afield.

[10:40] Tim Rice: I went up to Newcastle, where I invited a local band called The Sect down to London for a recording test, in preference to a rival outfit I saw fronted by someone called Brian Ferry.

[10:52] Tim Rice: I asked The Sect to record the Left Bank's recent US hit, but UK flop, Walkaway Renee, and the Dylan classic, It's All Over Now Baby Blue, which they did very well in three hours at Abbey Road.

[11:06] Tim Rice: I produced the session, inasmuch as I sat there while the engineer masterminded everything. Unfortunately, no one higher up than me in EMI, i.e., almost everybody, wanted The Sect to become an EMI act.

[11:20] Tim Rice: Walkaway Renee became a big hit on EMI for the Four Tops a few months later. My second attempt at finding the new Beatles at least got released on EMI's Columbia label.

[11:32] Tim Rice: The group were Tamla Motown obsessives who hailed from the South End area, named the Marvin Lois Enterprise. I travelled down to the depths of Essex to witness them in action, and apart from their less than catchy name and their determination only to perform Motown songs, they had quite a bit going for them.

[11:52] Tim Rice: I rechristened them The Shell and found them an original song to sing. Not one of mine, unfortunately, though I did discreetly play them one or two Weber Rice compositions, which they politely rejected without knowing who was to blame for them.

[12:07] Tim Rice: Every so often, junior staff from EMI's Music Publishing Arm did the rounds of Norrie's department, hoping to persuade us to record their copyrights. And I thought one of these, Goodbye Little Girl, would suit the former Marvin Lois Enterprise.

[12:23] Tim Rice: So did they, and we made a booking at Abbey Road. My new discoveries attacked it with vim, and we even picked up a decent review in Record Retailer, the music trade paper of the day.

[12:35] Tim Rice: But it flopped. And The Shell were able to return to being the Marvin Lois Enterprise, which they'd preferred being anyway. At least they could say the Marvin Lois Enterprise had never failed on record.

[12:48] Tim Rice: They were talented and unlucky to get such an inexperienced producer first time. And I fear last time out.

[13:13] Tim Rice: And now it's time to say goodbye.

[13:17] Tim Rice: I see a teardrop in your eyes. You should have thought a little girl before you stepped out of it. You sure before you step out. Goodbye, little good old cry, little goodbye. The petty of chance with this role mates.

[13:26] Tim Rice: Goodbye, little good old cry, little go goodbye. Said the word went to your head. That's no excuse for the things you said. It's too late girl. Cause I've made up my last bell. Goodbye, little good old cry, little go-goodbye.

[14:47] Tim Rice: I say a tender in your eyes. Goodbye, little good old cry, little go-goodby. Goodbye, to me, little go-goodby. The shell, Goodbye, Little Girl.

[15:22] Tim Rice: My first ever release as a record producer. My next assignment was to produce a single by a young man named Murray Head. He'd already made a couple of records for EMI under Norrie's direction, but neither had succeeded, despite strong record company support.

[15:39] Tim Rice: EMI had now lost faith in Murray, and the good-looking singer was finding it difficult even to get a meeting with his producer. Despite the fact that he had a deal to record three singles. I got to know Murray quite well as he hung around our offices hoping vainly for a friendly word from above.

[15:56] Tim Rice: I'd been very impressed by Murray's vocals on his first two records. So, when a Harris Norrie eventually asked, no, told, me to supervise Murray's third and final single, I was delighted, even though I was instructed not to exceed a budget of 400 pounds.

[16:14] Tim Rice: Murray had actually got a job with an insurance company, so deflated was he by his lack of progress. But shortly after I was foisted onto him, he won a good part in a movie, The Family Way, starring James Mason and Haley Mills, Bye Bye Insurance.

[16:30] Tim Rice: Not only that, he'd been asked to provide a song for the soundtrack, which was in the main to be written by Wait for It, Paul McCartney. Murray played me a demo of the song he'd written for the film called Someday Soon, a jazzy, Georgie Fame type number that he'd recorded with a soul-tinged group called the Blue Monks, with whom he often performed live.

[16:53] Tim Rice: I thought the song was great, and all the elements of a hit seemed to be effortlessly falling into place. A film, a Beatles connection, a great backing group who already knew the song. EMI would soon regret handing this surefire smash to such a humble member of their staff.

[17:10] Tim Rice: I would even have change from the 400 quid. Needless to say, it didn't quite work out like that. The session went well enough, but although EMI more or less had to release it, if only to get Murray's contract off their backs, they gave it virtually no promotion.

[17:25] Tim Rice: The song was featured so fleetingly in the film that the average length rustle of a popcorn bag would have obscured it totally. There was to be no champagne reception with Paul.

[17:35] Tim Rice: As we launched our Paul McCartney, Murray Head, Tim Rice joint soundtrack album.

[17:49] Tim Rice: Baby, I'm so sick of the girl I got now. Just wait a little longer till I give her a round. I'll have you dancing to a new side of tune.

[18:09] Tim Rice: That stupid little woman while she's talking so many lies. It's got to the stage when she's so easy to despise. She's on the way out and she's gonna realize some days.

[19:25] Tim Rice: You can come out in the open and into my room. It's gonna happen, baby!

[19:51] Tim Rice: Baby, I'm so sick of the girl I got now. Just wait a little longer till I give her a ride. I have it dancing to her news on the church.

[20:02] Tim Rice: Sunday. It's gonna happen, baby. Sunday, sir. Sunday hope. It's gonna happen with Sunday.

[20:14] Tim Rice: Soon it's Sunday Saturday soon, it's gonna have a night. I'm gonna do well someday. I'm gonna keep you so someday soon, Murray head.

[20:30] Tim Rice: It still sounds good to me. That track may have flopped, but it did cement a lasting bond between Murray and me, which led to our eventual shared success with both Jesus Christ Superstar and Chess.

[20:43] Tim Rice: I was, of course, in my spare time, writing songs with Andrew Lloyd Webber during my days at EMI in 1966 and 1967, and we were continually attempting to persuade producers or artists to record one of them.

[20:56] Tim Rice: Although our principal energies were concerned with writing for the theatre. At that time, our Dr. Bernardo musical, The Likes of Us. We did eventually, however, persuade EMI to take a punt with our material.

[21:10] Tim Rice: The first Weber Rice songs ever to be heard on record, even before our first Joseph album, were recorded by a young singer from Cambridge, a lady named Ross Hanneman.

[21:22] Tim Rice: She coped excellently, even enthusiastically with our compositions. Eventually, two singles, A Sides and B sides. But as had been the case with The Shell and Murray Head, they did not trouble the charts.

[21:36] Tim Rice: The first single was called Down Through Summer, which, as the first Weber Rice recording to escape anywhere, I featured in Get Onto My Cloud Podcast Episode 27.

[21:48] Tim Rice: The second of these two singles was entitled 1969, a gloomy, angst-ridden glimpse into the future, with lyrics tottering along the knife edge of pretentiousness, and the melody not a million miles away from Beethoven's Fur Elise.

[22:04] Tim Rice: But the result was entertaining, and 1969 did pick up a few plays on the radio, which was some sort of progress.

[22:42] Tim Rice: And dipping through the heavy sky, its eye had to smile and say I shouldn't really mind. It managed fine for quite a while.

[22:55] Tim Rice: I tried to stand, sang too before, a Chinese band watched by nose They tore the flowers from my hand and then they ran to look for more I hate the picture 196 I hate the picture 196 And then I the song they sung a hundred tongues began to shout and then a panic in the hall I heard them go We can't get out the word they meant it to And no one tried for no one knew I took the photo of the night in black and white in colours too I hate the picture I see I hate the picture I think I think the picture I think 1969, written and produced by Andrew Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice in 1967 and sung by Ross Hanneman.

[25:10] Tim Rice: Hit records were still some way away for us, perhaps partly because our priority ever since our first meeting had been writing for the stage. But ironically, it was through a record that we eventually had our major breakthrough with Jesus Christ Superstar, particularly in the United States, with an album that preceded any stage version.

[25:30] Tim Rice: I owe a great deal to my spell as a management trainee at EMI and learning about the recording studio with Norrie Paramour.