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[0:00] Ben Rimalower: Broadway Podcast Network presents Giants in the Sky, How Sondheim and Lapine Went Into the Woods, with me, Ben Rimalower. Today's guest, Donna Murphy, the Witch at Shakespeare in the Park and Original Auditionee.

[0:14] Donna Murphy: Once upon a time... I played the Witch in the Public Theater New York Shakespeare Festival's Delacorte Theater production of Into the Woods, having auditioned for the role in the original production. I won my first of two Tony Awards for creating the role of Fosca in Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine's Passion, which was filmed for American Playhouse broadcast and home video release. I also appeared in James Lapine's Twelve Dreams at Lincoln Center Theater and the City Center Encores! productions of Stephen Sondheim's Anyone Can Whistle and Follies. I most recently appeared on stage starring in Dear World for Encores! My numerous other Broadway credits include Hello Dolly, The People in the Picture, Love Music, Wonderful Town, The King and I, The Mystery of Edwin Drood, The Human Comedy, and They're Playing Our Song.

Off-Broadway, I have been seen in Tony Kushner's production of Ellen McLaughlin's Helen at the Public Theater, in addition to Hello Again, Song of Singapore, Privates on Parade, Birds of Paradise, Little Shop of Horrors, and Frances. Among my many film and television roles, I am best known for Star Trek Insurrection, Spider-Man 2, The Bourne Legacy, and as the voice of Mother Gothel in Tangled. I can currently be seen as Mrs. Astor on The Gilded Age.

[1:33] Ben Rimalower: I can't thank you enough for talking to me. I have been so excited. Finally. And so happy to be finally able to coordinate schedules. I mean, of course, you're someone who many, many people associate with Into the Woods because of your incredible performance as the Witch in the production at the Delacorte in 2012. But I was aware that there was an earlier history when the show had almost come into your life at least one time, possibly. I don't even, I'm just very eager to get it from you, the whole Donna Murphy history of Into the Woods.

[2:15] Donna Murphy: Yes. Okay. I'll give you what I can remember. I'll share with you what I remember, which I have come to learn is not necessarily how James remembers it.

[2:26] Ben Rimalower: Right. Yes.

[2:28] Donna Murphy: We'll get there. We'll get there. So how would you like me to step into the woods?

[2:38] Ben Rimalower: Yes. Thank you. Well, you know, I'd love to get a little context because, you know, your career had begun already before Into the Woods even was written and you'd been working on Broadway and off Broadway. And if I'm understanding the timing right, you'd had a big break before Into the Woods where you had been in The Mystery of Edwin Drood in the original cast. And then you replaced Betty Buckley in the title role. And I'm sure that people in the industry were probably aware of all of your gifts before that, but certainly on a much...

[3:20] Donna Murphy: Not necessarily. Yeah. So I was cast in Drood. Originally, I auditioned for Drood and I was, what was I asked to prepare? So strange. I can't remember what I was asked to prepare, but I do remember that I was cast and I was also asked to do what was, I think, maybe the last reading that was happening. And there may have been, because I sensed that there were maybe previous readings, but a reading that was happening at The Public prior to the production in the park. And I was asked to read the role of Helena Landless because Jonna Schneider, who was going to be doing it, and who I was... The offer that I had was to be in the ensemble and to understudy the role of Helena Landless, played by Jonna Schneider, and the role of Princess Puffer, played by Cleo Lane, which Cleo was an icon to me.

A boyfriend in high school had introduced me to her. He was mocking my having just bought the Streisand classical album. And he's like, this isn't a direct segue at all for that. And we were at some record store in Boston and he's like, I feel like I need to introduce you to some other singers who are not necessarily classical singers. And he was the first person I ever had a romantic relationship with who also shared my love for the arts and theater. And I thought he was very, relatively speaking, extremely knowledgeable. And I had a wider view and expanse of artists and of all kinds. And so anyway, he introduced me to Cleo Lane, who I became obsessed with. So I didn't quite understand. I didn't know what she'd be doing in the show.

And I just thought, wow, I'm 24 years old and what are we talking about here? But I did this reading and I got to play Helena Landless in the reading and be surrounded by all of the rest of the original cast, with maybe perhaps a few exceptions. And that was thrilling, absolutely thrilling. And then I did the production in the park and I never went on in either roles and I never even had an understudy rehearsal until our last week there. It was the first time we had any kind of official understudy rehearsal. And there was an occasion where I remember Judy Kuhn, who was understudying Betty as Drood, and Patti Kohner as Rosabud. It looked like she was going to go on for Betty because Betty was sick.

But the weather was horrible and we were all hoping she'd get to go on. And unfortunately, we got rained out that night. So anyway, there may have been other supporting players who went on. But anyway, I never went on. And I have to say that just prior to that, I had started doing more regional theater and playing roles and some off-Broadway things where I was replacement, understudying a principal role and guaranteed to go on. And when I took Drood, I was like, I had made this decision. I didn't want to be in the quote-unquote ensemble anymore. I didn't want to be on a chorus contract. It wasn't about the contract. I wanted to be creating parts, or if not creating them, having a chance to play them and interpret them.

But Drood came along and it was so special and unusual. And also, I'd had a gazillion auditions for Will Leach, the amazing and brilliant Will Leach, for previous productions of, you know, this isn't a show about the public. No, no, I love it. Pirates of Penzance and La Boheme, I'm assuming. Like, not Pirates. I never auditioned for Pirates. But that was just sort of as I was entering the professional realm. I didn't kind of miss that. But Boheme had many auditions for Musetta and then for another show. I can't remember what the other was. But, and then I did, I was an understudy for Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio in The Human Comedy, yeah. And I stood by for her in their very brief run on Broadway, but I was an understudy down at the public.

And he'd seen me go on for her. So he knew he wanted to work with me. And I certainly knew I wanted to have the opportunity to work with him again. So I felt like it was really important for me to say yes. And to get to say yes to him and Rupert Holmes and that incredible cast and be a part of creating something brand new, you know, was so exciting and important. And I have no regrets, even if I never had the chance to go on to what I did get a chance to do in the show. So, but the interesting thing was by the end of the summer, I had decided, you know what, this was what it was. I don't see me going on with the show as an understudy and in the chorus. I think I need to continue to find those opportunities out of town, in town, wherever to play roles or to understudy with an opportunity to go on.

So when they originally just announced they were moving and I was asked to continue with the show and to continue, what was interesting is we had that understudy rehearsal that last week and I played, I think I just did Cleo's role. I just did Huffer. And Will came up to me at the end of it and he said, well, you know, I always thought we'd have to find, you know, an older woman to play this, to cover this role when we moved on, but I definitely want you to cover this role. You can totally play this role. And I said, and I was, you know, I was in like a rehearsal skirt, probably, you know, look younger than, well, I definitely looked younger than this. It was, God, almost 40 years ago or something.

But, you know, I had my hair in a messy bun, I'm sure, and no makeup on. And I thought, really? Well, okay, that's what he says. And in the meantime, I'm thinking, I'm probably not going to go on with this, but what an incredible compliment and vote of support for my work and coming from one of our masters. And Will, you know, he did not, he didn't spew support sort of gratuitously. He was honest. He was a quiet man. And so it meant a lot when he said that to me. And so, but then as we moved towards, quote, unquote, negotiations, I don't even know if I had an agent at the time. I may have had, I think I did have an agent. But anyway, and the offer came in and it was, you know, I said, well, can I stand by?

And they said, no, no, we really need you to be in the ensemble. And then, and so I passed. And I was very sad about it, but at the same time, it felt like the right thing at that moment. And then they called me back and they said, or my reps back and said, you know, would it make a difference to know that Clio has negotiated? It was something like 16 concert dates. So you would be guaranteed to go on for at least those dates. And I remember turning to my late husband, Sean, and saying, this is different. This means I get to play this role on dates that I will know about on Broadway. And yes, yes, yes, yes. I was so happy to say yes. I was so happy to be able to have it still seem aligned with my, what felt right to me and my goals.

And I did not want to not be a part of that show. You know, it was just an amazing thing to be a part of. So I moved on with Drood and I understudied Clio. And I first went on for her during previews with, again, no rehearsal. And we both were sick. And basically we both negotiated. I said, okay, can, can you go on tonight and I will watch you so I get your staging. And, and we figure out what the hell we're going to put on my head and on my body and did that. And I stayed up most of the night and figured out what I was doing and went on for the matinee. And Clio took the matinee off. That it was like a Friday night that we both came in from our doctors and were like, I've got an infection. I've got an infection.

Doctor says I should be out. Doctor says I should be out. Of course she carried much more, you know, importance in that situation. And we wanted, you know, Clio's, well, I don't, I'm speaking the obvious. I won't go any, I feel like no matter what I do, I'm going to step on my tongue here. But the decision was made that I would watch that night and I would go on the next day. And, and Clio was back that night, the following night, she needed to get, let the, you know, the drugs kick in and we both needed our antibiotics to kick in. And so, and then I went on in the run and was fortunate enough to go on for Jonna Schneider as well as Clio for the scheduled dates. And then I left the show because I'd been helping them do backers auditions for rags.

And I'd been asked and they asked me to stand by for Teresa Stratas. And I thought, well, you know, here I am again with an understudy situation, but it's a new show. And I had a small role in the show. And so I was actually in the show and covering her.

[14:17] Donna Murphy: And I heard Betty was leaving Drood to do, to replace Bernadette in Song and Dance, and I remembered that Rob Marshall had said to me at some point where I was very frustrated in the park, he said, Donna, none of this is for naught. You know, he said, I was just sitting on the lawn with Will and Will Leach and Graciela Danielle, who was our choreographer, and Rupert, and Will said to the group, he said, you know who would make a great Drood? And he said, Donna, Donna would also be a great Drood. And, and so that kind of hung around in the back of my head, I heard Betty was leaving, and I ran into the stage manager, I was on my way home from rehearsal, and he was on his way to the theater. And I ran into him, Jim Harker, and I said, So Jim, I heard Betty's leaving.

Is that true? He said, Yeah. I said, Well, you know, I'm getting ready to go out of town with, with rags. But if, would you just ask, you know, the powers that be if there would be sincere interest in seeing me for the role, because I'm sure they're looking for a name and all that stuff. Anyway, the word came back, they'd love to see you. So I literally went on a lunch break from rehearsals for rags. I had prepared and I, my hair was long, I like put in a ponytail and got dressed up in a, in a boy suit, basically, because I could more easily look like a boy than a girl at that point. It really took a lot less effort. And I went in and they didn't know who I was right away, and didn't recognize me.

And, and then someone said, It's Donna, it's Donna. And they said, Yeah, you said it was Donna. But and then I said, It's me. It's me. Anyway, I did my audition. And long story short, I got the job. I think they really tried to find, you know, a much more recognizable name than Donna who. But I did get the job. And I got to play that role for about nine months. And it was amazing to have experienced the show from so many different perspectives. And I will say that even though that was a long winded answer to your, you know, casual comment of my having a wonderful break during drood. I will say that the beginning of my awareness of into the woods happened while I was doing that show. It happened, I think, in my first chapter when I was there as an ensemble member and covering Cleo and Jonna, because I think one of the readings or workshops that happened involved Betty, involved Howard McGillin as one of the princes, and possibly as the wolf involved Jonna Schneider as one of the stepsisters.

Yeah. And I don't know if there were any anybody else, but those were the and I was like, Wow, they must just feel like they have made it. They are doing a workshop of a Sondheim show. How amazing. And a Sondheim Lapine show, which Sunday in the park had happened and had happened. What year was that? You probably have your finger on the pulse. Sunday was 84. And then this into the woods workshop at playwrights with the people you mentioned was in 86. Okay. So that makes sense. Because 1984 was definitely like a period of time where I was saying, I don't know that I want to do this anymore. I don't know that I am. I was questioning whether what I really wanted to do, which was create roles or get the opportunity to explore roles in already existing pieces of theater in ways that challenged me and would give me an opportunity to grow as an artist and to, and hopefully build, you know, some how silly of me, but some kind of consistency of income and work with, you know, how silly, silly of me and to work with people who I really, really respected.

And not that I hadn't had some of that, but it was very inconsistent. And, and I also felt like I was, I was at this point where I would do auditions and I would literally like I would get a letter from the people I'd audition, a casting director or, or a director saying, you're really gifted. I'm sorry, it didn't work out, but you know, hang in there. And that was very encouraging to me. And it did keep me there. But at some moment when I was really feeling low, and we were struggling financially, my husband surprised me and got me tickets to what was supposed to be Mandy's last performance of As George in Sunday in the Park. And I just was aware of it. I mean, you know, we had no internet.

I don't know why I knew that was happening. Backstage, I didn't read the Times regularly. But I knew that that was coming up. And I was like, I hadn't seen the show. And I said, I can't believe I'm going to miss the show. And I'm going to miss or I'm going to miss Mandy in the show. Yeah, I knew what the show was not scheduled to close. And then Sean surprised me. And he said, I've got tickets for his last performance. And he got them like a ticket. I mean, it was that day. It was like, meet me. And, and I watched the show. And I just remember, I mean, it was like I was swimming in the ocean. I had so much salt on my face from from crying constantly, not constantly, but a lot. And in the last moments.

I mean, throughout the show, I felt like, oh, this is like, God has put me here. The universe has put me here. Because the show was written for me. I mean, just me, nobody else who has seen it or in this theater at this unbelievably special performance. And I remember Mandy giving his hat to Bob Westenberg. Wow. And during the curtain call. Yeah. And just standing up and bravoing and weeping, and out loud saying, Thank you. Thank you. I mean, thank you to everyone involved, who was giving me the show. Thank you to the universe. Thank you to my husband, who was my fiance at that time. Actually, no, he was just my boyfriend. He was my boyfriend. And we didn't get engaged until the Christmas that we were on Broadway as Jude.

That's when we got engaged. So anyway, but he got you and he knew what this would mean to you. We were living together and he really understood me. And he was like, we're living together and he really understood me. And so from that point on, Sunday in the Park became my touchstone. I put that album on when I was questioning my place in the business, my place as an artist, where things seem to be at in life. And so when that workshop was happening, and those people who I was current at that time working with doing that workshop, I do remember them doing it. I think it was while I was still with the show as an ensemble member. I didn't feel like it was my place to ask them about the experience.

You know, I kind of entered the business guileless and I would say and ask anything and offered my services to sing or act for anything. And then the more I was in it, I got shyer about that kind of just completely open, curious. I had all the curiosity in the world, but I was a little shy about sharing it. So anyway, what was your context, by the way, Donna, like, were you already a Sondheim fan? Did you know Lapine via March the Falsettos? You know, what did they mean to you outside of Sunday?

[23:33] Donna Murphy: Okay, so I had my first introduction was to Sondheim was while I was in high school. I don't know what year this would have been, but I was upstairs in my bedroom and my mother was downstairs watching television. I don't know where the gazillion other people who lived in my house because I was the oldest of seven. And my great grandmother lived with us until she passed away when I was about 14. So I can't remember if my nanny was still living with us, but I do remember my mother downstairs and calling me, Donna, Donna, get downstairs, get downstairs. So I went downstairs. She I walked into the living room, I mean, into the den where she was watching TV. And I said, watch, listen. And it was Judy Collins on The Tonight Show, singing send in the clowns.

And she had really just started it. So my mother was very intuitive in calling me and saying, Donna needs to hear this. And I just remember that I was kind of under the spell of it. Whatever it was, I knew that was Judy Collins, but I didn't know what was going on. And the song was unlike anything else I'd ever heard. You know, maybe if I listened to art songs or people more outside the box, I might have been introduced to something like it. But I really. And it finished. And my mother turned to me and she said, wasn't that something? She was a Queens girl. I was like, yeah. And then I watched the interview. I don't remember much about that. But and then I. Looked up send in. I looked up clowns.

So I didn't know what the song was. I mean, maybe she gave the name of the song. But anyway, I somehow track. I don't know where I went to the library to my music teacher. I asked friends of mine who were in my summer theater group, you know, who were like in college. What is the song? They told me what it was. I found out there was a show called The Little Night Music. I then found out the person who wrote it was Stephen Sondheim. And so I went to the library in town and in my little small town up in Massachusetts at that point, I moved to Massachusetts. And and I had, as I said, older friends who were either upperclassmen in high school who were more versed in theater and musical theater than I was at that point.

And and they shared their love of Sondheim. And and I was introduced to Follies and company and a little. And I realized, oh, OK, well, I have been doing Sondheim. And I thought, well, that's familiar because I was about to do Gypsy in my summer youth theater group and play Tessie Tora. Amazing. Yeah. And and one of the farm boys, which is a whole other story. Last minute replacement for you. I mean, just on that note, were you always so versatile? I mean, you just blew my mind earlier talking about standing by for Cleo Lane, Jonna Schneider, Betty Buckley and Teresa Stratus.

[27:06] Donna Murphy: Well, and at some point, Will asked me if I would be a second cover for Rosabud. And I said, Will, you do not want me going on in any circumstance. I can hit the notes, but I'm telling you, it's just wrong. It's just wrong. And he said, I don't think I've ever had anybody turned me down. And I said, I'm looking out for the whole show here. You don't want it. You don't want it. But I mean, they obviously didn't agree with that in terms of rags. I mean, they wanted you there. Yeah, they did. But Teresa Stratus is different than I mean, covering that role of Rebecca was different than covering the role. I just. I was never. I mean, I did play Laurie in Oklahoma in high school, but I will tell you that at intermission, the head of the drama department, who also was the head of the vocal music department, came running back and pulled me aside backstage and said, what are you doing?

You are totally overpowering Curly. She said, and you must do something with your hair. And I was like, excuse me, I asked for a wig because I had like hair about this length. And it looked like sort of Mary Tyler Moorish. That's all I can say.

[28:36] Donna Murphy: And I'd asked for a wig or a fall and she said, no, no, you don't need that. And she kind of paid no attention to me about the physical look of it until that night. And then I was, you know, had clips and was trying to stick a bow in my hair anyway, but you're totally overpowering curly. I don't know what I did is I have photos, but no, I don't think I have any video. I was casting as Linda Lowe, which was completely inappropriate, but in Flower Drum Song, my senior year. Right. That I can see. Yeah. I mean, totally wrong, but that's another story. You know what? I was just game for anything. And I loved creating characters and I loved a departure from myself. And I think my first love of theater came from books and my mother reading to me and I read very, I think I was four when I started to read and then making up stories and those becoming plays and acting them out.

And I loved music and I loved film musicals. I certainly didn't see any live musicals for quite some time until I was in school, I guess. And maybe there were some school trips, but I loved from the beginning. It wasn't about, I want to stay. Well, I did like attention and I did like standing around and singing or playing the accordion and singing or playing the piano or playing the violin. And I loved making music, but I definitely liked the attention that the positive attention that it brought. But the acting thing. Yeah. I just, I would say when I was young, it was just, I was game to do anything. And then once I was, you know, auditioning professionally, I came to understand, you know, that people kind of didn't know what to do with me as a 19 year old, as a 20 year old.

I was not most people's idea at that time of what an ingenue was. Right. It would be different in these days if I was to enter into this, I mean, there's so much that would be different at that time. And I remember an agent telling me when I was in my, like early to mid twenties, you know, be patient. It may be an awkward and inconsistent journey, but you're going to work a lot in your thirties and forties because things are just kind of settle going to settle. I remember at a point I cut my hair super short and, you know, I thought, well, with, with makeup on, I look like I was trying to be like an Italian movie star without it. I just, I look like Peter Pan, you know, and, but I did not look like Lori, you know, and again, I, I did feel like, doesn't anybody have an imagination? I mean, are we all in this because we have imaginations and we want to express and explore, but not so much.

[32:01] Ben Rimalower: Well, it's, I mean, you I think are kind of maybe somewhat at the vanguard of sort of a transformational actor within musical theater. And that's more partly because of the work that you have done. It's I think it's more common now for young performers to envision that kind of a career. And maybe, maybe that was just something that, you know, it was all just sort of typecasting and they didn't expect that kind of acting work from people doing musicals at the time, especially who had a singing voice like you did, you know?

[32:29] Donna Murphy: Thank you. I, I think that it became, when I realized just how strong typecasting was, it became part of my job as I saw it to, to make very deliberate and conscious decisions, to continue to show people the different things I could do. And also that's what was fun for me. I wasn't really interested in repeating myself. And like after Drood, I, well, I don't want to, but the point was that I made an effort because I, I did a musical not that long after that, that was Birds of Paradise. And I played a character that people saw as sort of tomboyish and it's a stupid word, but whatever. And my then agent was having trouble getting auditions for me for roles that were quote unquote feminine. After Drood and the tomboy and Birds of Paradise.

It was just so silly. But I, and so I did like Manhattan Punchline was this, this venue that did these, this one act festivals like January through March and actors love to do them because it was right around what was the traditional pilot season and you, it was all one act comedies. I shouldn't say comedies. I got it in my head that they were all comedies. I don't know if they were all comedies, but most of what I was auditioning for were comedies. And I remember that you made no money doing that. They were fantastic opportunities because casting directors would come and they would sometimes bring people from, you know, representing network casting because you could see for one acts in a night and you could see so many actors and as an actor, you knew that the odds are pretty good that, you know, some casting directors who might not know your work would see you.

And at a time that you could be them fresh in their minds, you know, for pilot cast. So it was a strategic move on my part. And I did this, this one act that I pranced around in law. I played a woman who had supposedly recently lost a lot of weight and was behaving very suspiciously. And her husband was convinced she was having an affair and hired a private detective to follow her around. And actually, oh my God, fantastic actor, you know, you know, you know, and actually, oh my God, fantastic actor. Tony Shalhoub played the detective. Oh, wonderful. And I remember the wonderful actor, David Chandler, I think was his name who played my husband. And I pranced around in lingerie for most of this.

And, and suddenly was getting auditions for like, it was just so transparent, you know, but like, you know, you're going to be so disappointed when I show up for the interview. It's not what you think with your Cleo Lane and Barbra Streisand records. Yeah. It was just, I don't look like really what you want and I'm not going to spin the right discs. Okay. Anyway.

[35:35] Donna Murphy: So please bring us back to.

[35:37] Ben Rimalower: Okay. Well, so you're in Drood and you're just seething with jealousy over your colleagues who are going to do this.

[35:46] Donna Murphy: I wasn't jealous. I was in awe. Wow. And I thought, Oh, I'm like, I'm just like a step or two away from these people who are doing this. So things are okay. Yeah. Okay. This is pretty exciting.

[36:01] Ben Rimalower: Yeah. And so when, when did the actual opportunity for you to possibly do Into the Woods come up?

[36:11] Donna Murphy: It's come up. So I had auditioned for James for March, the falsettos at Playwrights. And then actually it was like for a workshop of it. And then I can't remember the timing of this though. I then was offered. Although this might be later. So I'm, this is all getting a little mushy. When did the actual project come up? Like the combined shows that was, well, the Gratia production at Hartford Stage was, what was the production at Playwrights? That was March. So March, the falsettos at Playwrights was 81. So it would have been before even Sunday in the Park with George. Yeah. Okay. So I auditioned for that. I had auditioned for that. It was a really, we won't go into that. It was, I was, I was, I don't know what I did, but it was anyway.

So I had auditioned for that. And I believe I had auditioned for two productions of Merrily. The Old Globe. Yeah. And Arena Stage. Yes. And after my, for, for the Old Globe, I just went in and I think I was, I was in the, I was in the, I was in the, and I think I was, I think I was auditioning for Beth and I sang Not a Day Goes By. And all I remember is that I finished and James said, well, I never imagined it sounding like that. And I know I like probably just belted the shit out of it. And it was like so raw and emotional. I made a choice, you know, and that was that. But when I auditioned for the Arena production, it was a few years later, I feel like. And, and I said, you know what? I want to audition for Mary.

And they said, well, they want to see you for Gussie. And I said, well, I'll only audition for Gussie if I can also audition for Mary. And if I can have two hours in between. Smart. So I did audition for both. And I felt very good about both auditions. And I do remember. After it was, they, they wanted me to audition for Gussie first. So I did that first. And then I came back and I auditioned for Mary and I had completely changed and wiped off all the makeup and on some loose, you know, clothing and just whatever choices I made at the time. And when I finished, I do remember Steve saying. If they had told me this was the same person coming back in. I can honestly say, I would have no idea. Wow.

Unrecognizable. Congratulations. And I went. And that's the last time I'm going to hear. And then I got a lovely note from the casting director saying that. You know, it was very impressive. They had decided that they were actually going to use Mary Gordon. Murray had played. I think Gussie. In at the Globe and was going to play Mary in this production at the Arena. If I may, I think I have that right. I think she may have been Gussie in, in both productions. Actually. Well, then I can't remember. Maybe it was. So anyway, I didn't get cast in either. I need the role. But in that note, she said, I have a message from Stephen Sondheim. And then she wrote in quotes or they wrote. It was a man and a woman casting. That Steve said. I hope that somebody writes a show for that Donna Murphy girl. And so I, I still have that note. I treasured it. And so I'd had that. And so.

[40:18] Donna Murphy: The Into the Woods audition came. It was an agent appointment. It was not for any of the early, early castings. It was not for any of the early castings. It was an agent appointment. It was not for any of the earlier incarnations. I was never brought in. For any of those readings or workshops or the Old Globe. And it's confusing to James. Because what I remember is that. It was for the original production on. On Broadway. And that. I had a first audition and it was for the witch. And I remember exactly what I wore. I remember what I did with my hair. I had like long. Layered permed hair. And I just made it look like a fucking lion's mane. Like I've stuck my finger in an outlet. And I wore a black like cat suit and this red.

Chiffon like to the, to my, to the floor, like duster over it. Sheer chiffon duster and black high boots. And, and I sang this song that. I don't know how I didn't get like just thrown out of the theater district. Because it was an arrangement that. My husband and I had put together of a Gladys Knight song. Called Imagination. Really got to use my imagination, but I. It was a crazy arrangement where this person basically. Lost their mind during the course of it because this person. Had left her. And it started out very cool and very contained. And I used about three and a half octaves in it. And it was. Wild. And I, I got quite a few jobs with that. But auditioning for a Sondheim. The Pine show with it was, but I was told that I needed to show range.

And that she was a dark. You know, unsettling character. And I thought, and I didn't have a lot of notice for the audition. And I thought. I'm going to shape this. And I went and I did that. And then Jim and Yanni came up on the stage. And said, what the hell. We were all out there scratching our heads. And he said, you know, you're going to shape this song. And I said, I'm going to shape this. Song with this role in mind. And I went and I did that. And then Jim and Yanni came up on the stage. And said, what the hell.

[42:53] Donna Murphy: I don't know about that song, though, because it's a head-scratcher for people in the musical theater. And I said, it's a Gladys Knight song. He goes, OK. All right. Was this at the Martin Beck? I know this was at the Beck. And no, I actually I don't know that. I don't know that it was at the Beck. But at a theater, not a studio. It was on stage. Yeah. Yeah. And the show was not happening because James has since asked me, were we already replacing the witch? I said, no, no, no, no, no. The show had not opened. And I the only other person I remember there at that time, Vivian Reed, also auditioning for the witch. Oh, interesting. And had you already left Drude at this time? Yes, I had left. I think I had left.

According to IBDB, which is not always accurate and especially in replacement timing. But it says that you played the title role in Drude from June of 86 to May of 87. And that's when the show closed. Yeah. Oh, gotcha. And then that would have been when they would have been casting Into the Woods because they started previews in September. I know what my hair looked like and it was. So it was in that range, you know. And the next thing I ended up doing, I mean, the next theater job I had was Birds of Paradise. Right. Just that fall. It was that fall. Same as Into the Woods, actually. They opened around the same time. So it was in that, you know, in that window. And so I got a call back and I had a work session with James.

I was given Boom Crunch and I can't remember if I was given The Witch's Wrap. I definitely was given Boom Crunch and I was given Scene. I feel like it was kind of a monologue that maybe became something. But and I went in and I worked with Paul. I worked with Paul Ford first. And then I worked with Gemignani. I had a session with him and then I had a session with James. And James worked with me on the scene or the monologue. And he said, I just want to make it clear, you know, we're not looking for a Disney witch, which is so funny given the fact that I played Mother Gothel in a Disney version of that part of the Rapunzel story. But we're not looking for a Disney-fied witch. We really want a truly frightening, unsettling presence.

And I was like, OK, I was like so happy to be given the permission to do that. And I also felt like what I had done with that crazy arrangement of imagination was on the road to that, which is probably why they saw this crazy woman. And I don't I don't know that Steve at that moment thought, is that the same Donna? And do you know when the arena production of Marilyn? Well, that was 1990. So it was in the future. OK, OK, OK. So clearly, Steve didn't remember me from Into the Woods audition. But that was OK. That makes sense. So anyway, I went in. All I remember is I feel like I did what I went in there to do. I don't remember being directed. I remember the feedback was that it was too dark. Too dark.

Wow. Too dark. And I was awfully thin, which I was not anorexic. And I had I just I was choosing to accentuate what was angular about it was long and angular. I mean, I with those like four or five and I probably, you know, was almost six feet tall. Wow. And anyway, and I was in a black catsuit with this. Yeah. Anyway, that by the way, was that how you dressed in the 80s or did you shop that for the audition? Well, I shopped the catsuit and I had that sheer thing because I like to buy clothes at this place that was in my neighborhood down in Chelsea called Chelsea Design. It was all this just a lot of flowy type things. And I and they were all kind of one of a kind pieces, but not terribly expensive.

And I think the first time I ever shopped there, it was when I was auditioning for the original production of Nine. Wow. That sounds right. Yeah. And so I had that red piece and I can make this work because, as I said, it was kind of short notice. Now, you know, Donna, that I consider one of the great barren holes waiting to be filled in musical theater is you having not done a solo cabaret show at any point. I know. But I also know you're on the wall at Don't Tell Mama from, I believe, around that time period where did you do cabaret then? Would this been the kind of thing you would have worn in that context? I'm on the wall at Don't Tell Mama? Yeah, there's it's like I think you and like maybe Karen Mason and Nancy Lamont.

Is that ring a bell? Is there any kind of thing together? No, but the only thing I did at Don't Tell Mama's was I was I think I may have done. I know I did one benefit concert there that was raising money in honor of a friend of mine who passed from AIDS, John Lenahan, a pianist. He passed in 87, actually, while I was doing Birds of Paradise. And I also did one of Seth's, you know, early Chatterbox. Oh, Seth Rudetsky. Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. And I, I did do down at 88's an incarnation of Mary Rogers, God rest her soul. What was it called? It was a review that yeah, of her work. Right. Yeah, I can't remember the name. That's just flew out of my brain. I'm embarrassed. I love doing that. Yeah.

And that was down at 88. But yeah, I've been threatening to do a cabaret thing. Well, certainly since Passion, if not before that, and I've started to work on it a number of times with different people. Everyone from Ted Sperling to Todd Allman to John DeLuca, Rob Marshall's partner in art and life. And other people have approached me. I mean, I was booked at the Carlisle because at one point my manager was like, we're just booking you. We're booking you at the Kennedy Center. We're booking you out on the West Coast. We're booking you at the Carlisle. And then you're going to end at the Carlisle. And I was like, OK. And then like life, either life or work, always kind of got in the way of being able to pull it together.

And I never wanted to, you know, my manager would say, just, you know, pick a song from this show and a song from that. But that is exactly what I don't want to do. So, I mean, there's something in the wind that's on a much larger scale and in a much larger venue. But I'm very busy and I've been very busy as a single mom and I'm doing two television shows right now. So it will happen. It's, you know, they may be wheeling me out and I may be blind and deaf and, you know. I'll be first in line for tickets regardless. Thank you. So where do you want to go? So, OK, so we have this beautiful outfit and the feedback is you're too dark. I'm too dark and I'm too thin. And then a year later, there is another chapter to my Into the Woods.

I'm doing a musical by Carol Hall called Are We There Yet?, which is a sort of pop rock exploration of the Odyssey. And I'm playing Penelope. And we're all in tie dye or variations on that. And we were in the smaller theater, the Nikos Theater. Where is that theater? The Williamstown Theater Festival. Oh, got you. Yeah. And while I'm there, I get a call to audition to replace Joanna Gleason as the baker's wife. So I'm like, yes, OK. I had seen the show, you know, in the atrium and just loved it. And I didn't feel, I mean, when I heard Bernadette was doing it, I was like, why were we auditioning? But I was not in the camp of don't bring me in if you're not seriously considering me. Yeah. An audition was a chance to work.

That's what Marion Seldes said, too. That's how I saw auditions. The only time I started really within that time that I would get frustrated was like, really? I'm on the fourth callback for a comedy. How is this going to be funny? And you're giving me no direction or notes. It's not going to be funny. And I'm not going to get the job if you need to see me that many times. But anyway, I really, I loved auditioning for the most part. It really was a chance. And usually I did not take something I had in my, you know, in my book. I was always learning something new because I wanted to shape something new for this particular role, this style of music and production. And that was fun and educational.

Yeah. So and sometimes the only chance I got to work that week, you know, so. So I got this call to come in and I had to learn part of a section of Moment in the Woods and a scene and read a scene or two with Chip. I ended up reading with Chip, which was unbelievable. And it was at the theater that the show was playing at. And so I, you know, on my day off, I got in my little dirndl skirt and embroidered dirndl skirt and flat shoes and white peasant blouse. And my hair and kind of messy bun, probably like this and went in. And I remember what I remember most about that is taking the bus and listening to my cassette over and over of the material and my rehearsal cassette. I'd gotten whoever our pianist was up there to, you know, put down a track for me and for me to be able to rehearse with.

And then the audition itself, what I remember was reading with Chip because I didn't expect that. Decades before the people in the picture brought you together at last. Yes, exactly. And I just thought he was marvelous, not only from this, but from, I don't know, I don't, I feel like I'd seen him do falsettos. Yeah. And so, anyway, reading with him and then afterwards, he said, Who are you? Who are you? You're wonderful. And I said, Oh, that means so much and thank you. And he said, I don't, I don't know how we haven't, you know, crossed paths. I said, We almost have sort of a couple of times. But anyway. It's really just so mind blowing because when I imagine you in 1988, I could easily see you as having been the baker's wife.

And it seems like why were they asking this kid to be the witch? But I guess that's the versatility thing that you were always getting. I think probably, this is what I guess was going on, is that they were, they knew Joanna was doing it. And maybe they were negotiating with Bernadette or something. James says no, James says no, because when we did go to Bernadette, we just went to her and she said yes. Yeah. And it was, I said, Well, I did not hallucinate. Not one, but two auditions. Yeah. I, but she was cast like less than a month before they started rehearsals. I mean, possibly a couple we I mean it was very, very last minute. So this makes sense. You know, it may not make sense in James's memory of that time, but.

And obviously, he doesn't remember the gal with the lioness hair and the red, whatever schmata. But, but the feedback after my baker's wife audition was that I was wonderful. The audition could not have been better. And they were so glad to see that I put on a little weight. Exactly the same. Exactly the same. I'm just like costuming kids. All right. Choices. It's called choices. But anyway.

[57:11] Donna Murphy: But they were going to be going with somebody they'd worked with before.

[57:18] Donna Murphy: And it was Mary Gordon Murray, who I think was the first replacement.

[57:23] Donna Murphy: And then life went on from there.

[57:25] Donna Murphy: People have asked me, well, didn't they call you back for that role at any other point where they were replacing?

[57:31] Donna Murphy: And I said, no, they didn't.

[57:33] Donna Murphy: But I do know that I was kind of on a different list from that point moving forward with whoever was in that room.

[57:42] Donna Murphy: And Joanna Merlin was our casting director for all those experiences.

[57:48] Donna Murphy: So actually, as I think about it, that's why I had any feedback.

[57:52] Donna Murphy: Because Joanna did, you know, she made an investment in people and she understood as an actor.

[57:59] Donna Murphy: I'm not saying she took me to lunch and had a sit down with me, but I could actually get feedback.

[58:05] Donna Murphy: She was so wonderful and incredibly supportive.

[58:09] Donna Murphy: I miss her greatly.

[58:13] Donna Murphy: So that was it with Into the Woods for that chapter.

[58:20] Donna Murphy: And there was a little bit of a conversation that happened when the revival was happening of Into the Woods, which was after I did Passion, obviously.

[58:32] Donna Murphy: And how did this work?

[58:39] Donna Murphy: I think Vanessa had already been cast as the witch.

[58:48] Donna Murphy: And then James and I were talking and they weren't finished casting.

[58:53] Donna Murphy: And I don't know. I don't know where they were.

[58:55] Donna Murphy: But I just remember us having a conversation and him saying and me saying, well, you know, I heard I gave a great audition for the.

[59:06] Donna Murphy: And he's like, he's like, you did.

[59:09] Donna Murphy: And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

[59:13] Donna Murphy: I don't expect you because I right now I've just, you know, you're Fosca and then you're Mrs.

[59:19] Donna Murphy: And I just, you know, he's like, well, you wouldn't want to do this.

[59:23] Donna Murphy: Right. It's like, you know, is that what you want to do right now?

[59:26] Donna Murphy: And I said, I don't know. I mean, it's you and it's Steve.

[59:30] Donna Murphy: And he said, well, and he said, I have to take a moment only because the show like was budgeted and structured in a certain way.

[59:38] Donna Murphy: And in terms of at that moment in time, I was, you know, thought of as a Broadway star.

[59:45] Donna Murphy: And would that make sense in terms of how they were envisioning sort of structuring things?

[59:52] Donna Murphy: Yeah. And I don't mean in any way to imply like they were ready to cast somebody and then they hesitated.

[1:00:00] Donna Murphy: I think they were just in a process, you know.

[1:00:02] Donna Murphy: And then we almost at the same moment when, you know, this is not the right next move for me.

[1:00:10] Donna Murphy: I think for me it wasn't just like a cold.

[1:00:15] Donna Murphy: No, I don't want to do this. It was something else came up and either in my professional or personal life or both that made me not available.

[1:00:24] Donna Murphy: When was that? So that was in 2001, I think, is when they would have been casting.

[1:00:30] Donna Murphy: And OK, I mean, that was I feel like that was oh, I was doing a television series.

[1:00:37] Donna Murphy: I ended up doing getting What About Joan? Right.

[1:00:41] Donna Murphy: And I went off to film that.

[1:00:46] Donna Murphy: I think I was cast in 2000 because I did Wonderful Town at Encores either in 2000 or 2000.

[1:00:58] Donna Murphy: They'd hoped for that to move. They didn't have a theater. I got What About Joan?

[1:01:04] Donna Murphy: And we did a season or half a season because we were a midseason replacement.

[1:01:10] Donna Murphy: And then we were waiting to hear whether we were picked up. And that may have been what happened.

[1:01:15] Donna Murphy: And then we did get picked up. And then we got canceled at a point, you know, in the second season.

[1:01:25] Donna Murphy: Sure. So when in 2001 did they end up?

[1:01:29] Donna Murphy: So I think it was later in 2001 because it was the 2002 Tony Awards that they were.

[1:01:37] Donna Murphy: But they did go out of town also. So it went on for a while, the whole experience.

[1:01:42] Donna Murphy: And I think there was a gap because they did some recasting, not of the women, but like I think it was John McMartin had done it on Broadway.

[1:01:55] Donna Murphy: But it was like John Cunningham in Los Angeles.

[1:02:01] Donna Murphy: So I don't think it was an immediate transfer.

[1:02:10] Donna Murphy: Oh, and September 11th is the other thing that I think got in the way of the time period of that.

[1:02:17] Donna Murphy: Because I was in Chicago for September 11th doing Joan show.

[1:02:24] Donna Murphy: And then we got canceled. And then honestly, I was pregnant on and off for the next several years.

[1:02:28] Donna Murphy: Oh, wow. And trying to stay pregnant. And that didn't work out.

[1:02:36] Donna Murphy: And I think the next thing I did on stage was Helen at the public at the New York Shakespeare Festival.

[1:02:42] Donna Murphy: And then ultimately, Wonderful Town. Yes. The next musical I did.

[1:02:45] Donna Murphy: Oh, actually, Helen opened the same time as Into the Woods on Broadway.

[1:02:50] Donna Murphy: Yeah. So I think, you know, that it was like it was just.

[1:02:54] Donna Murphy: And that was right after I'd had my second miscarriage.

[1:02:54] Donna Murphy: And so it was just one of those things that I think we were having a conversation and it was an in-between moment for me.

[1:03:02] Donna Murphy: And so was your impression then that was that the end of the Into the Woods road for me?

[1:03:09] Donna Murphy: Like, I'm not there's not going to be another production I'm going to talk about.

[1:03:12] Donna Murphy: So I wasn't thinking that way. I think that because, you know, I've been very blessed that many dreams had come true for me.

[1:03:24] Donna Murphy: Yeah. Working with Stephen James was a major dream come true.

[1:03:30] Donna Murphy: Suddenly being in a position that people were asking me a year ahead of time, did I want to star in The King and I and then other projects that I was asked to originate some, which I started with and then chose to leave other things.

[1:03:48] Donna Murphy: And I was suddenly I did my first feature film.

[1:03:52] Donna Murphy: I was being offered things and I was just trying to open myself up to many things.

[1:03:57] Donna Murphy: And the other thing that I realized was I really do.

[1:04:00] Donna Murphy: Well, I had two stepdaughters and I really did want to try to have a child and raise a child.

[1:04:07] Donna Murphy: I was very focused on I need to prioritize this desire to have a child.

[1:04:14] Donna Murphy: I actually felt like The Baker's Wife. I was living The Baker's Wife, you know, The Baker's Wife life.

[1:04:21] Donna Murphy: And so I didn't think that way. I just was like, this is where my life is at.

[1:04:28] Donna Murphy: And in fact, you know, when I chose to do Helen, I did.

[1:04:34] Donna Murphy: I mean, God rest his soul. But another legend, Adolph Green would call me periodically and say, you know, when are we going to do Wonderful Town?

[1:04:42] Donna Murphy: Because they didn't want to do it without me, which was incredibly flattering.

[1:04:48] Donna Murphy: And I I say, you know, Adolph, I'm pregnant.

[1:04:56] Donna Murphy: And he would say, OK, but what about my baby?

[1:05:01] Donna Murphy: The thing is, it was Adolph Green. You know, I was never offended by that.

[1:05:01] Donna Murphy: He was so sweet.

[1:05:08] Donna Murphy: And then at a point, you know, so Helen kind of fell into my lap.

[1:05:12] Donna Murphy: And I was like and Wonderful Town was not on the plate at that moment.

[1:05:12] Donna Murphy: And it was like Tony Kushner asking me to do a play, an Ellen McLaughlin play for the public.

[1:05:19] Donna Murphy: And so I chose to do that.

[1:05:31] Donna Murphy: And then after that, I had another miscarriage.

[1:05:35] Donna Murphy: And I said to my husband, I don't know where we're supposed to go with this.

[1:05:41] Donna Murphy: I know we're open to adoption, but I feel like I have to let go of all this for a bit.

[1:05:48] Donna Murphy: And I need to do something really joyful, something that gives joy and expresses joy.

[1:05:54] Donna Murphy: And that's why I chose to do Wonderful Town at that point.

[1:06:01] Donna Murphy: And we were able. It happened.

[1:06:01] Ben Rimalower: And just to drop in there for a second, what was your relationship to Into the Woods as a piece?

[1:06:08] Ben Rimalower: Did it hit you the way Sunday in the Park with George had? Was it was it an album that you would listen to?

[1:06:08] Donna Murphy: So interesting. I listen to it all the time.

[1:06:24] Donna Murphy: The show was a little bit of an unsolved mystery for me.

[1:06:24] Donna Murphy: I loved it. But something was always like, why when I listen to the score, am I perhaps having a more emotional experience than I am in terms of like at the end of the show?

[1:06:43] Donna Murphy: There are moments within the show that would deliver with such impact.

[1:06:50] Donna Murphy: But and in fairness, I saw the original production twice and then I saw the revival.

[1:06:57] Donna Murphy: I was at the opening night of that, which was thrilling.

[1:07:09] Donna Murphy: And then I think the next exposure to it was when I was asked to do it.

[1:07:16] Donna Murphy: And they sent me a video of the Regent's Park to the Regent's Park production with Hello, Miss Hannah.

[1:07:26] Donna Murphy: Yes. Yes. It's remarkable.

[1:07:26] Donna Murphy: And that, I think, was the next production that I saw.

[1:07:36] Donna Murphy: Yeah. And then probably the next production was when my daughter played Little Red at her high school production.

[1:07:36] Donna Murphy: So then I was asked to do, you know, I got this call about playing the witch and I I had just gotten the television series.

[1:07:45] Donna Murphy: I just a pilot television series.

[1:07:51] Donna Murphy: I'm serious. Hang on one sec.

[1:07:54] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, absolutely. As if you're not going to have to edit the shit out of this.

[1:07:54] Donna Murphy: No, hardly at all.

[1:08:25] Donna Murphy: Can you bet.

[1:08:28] Donna Murphy: That's it.

[1:08:30] Donna Murphy: Okay.

[1:08:32] Donna Murphy: And she's back.

[1:08:35] Donna Murphy: So, are you there.

[1:08:35] Donna Murphy: Yeah. Okay. So yeah, I was asked to meet with Tim was one of the directors and sat down with him, I had done this pilot for CBS, and we didn't know if we were picked up.

[1:08:51] Donna Murphy: But I was set to like recur on the first.

[1:08:55] Donna Murphy: I don't know, the first four episodes and then become a series regular following that I don't know why that's it but it was what it was, and it actually.

[1:09:08] Donna Murphy: When we did get picked up.

[1:09:11] Donna Murphy: put me in the position of being able to say, well before we were picked up.

[1:09:17] Donna Murphy: I can't remember exactly the timing of this but when I was offered it.

[1:09:22] Donna Murphy: I was able to enter into a dialogue, both my reps could enter a dialogue with CBS, and with the public about how we could work this.

[1:09:33] Donna Murphy: And it really was, it was only if the show got picked up at the TV series got picked up that they had to work around my schedule and I would be I think we would be in performance by the time we would be filming.

[1:09:48] Donna Murphy: So it was not that much of an overlap but I did the show got picked up.

[1:09:48] Donna Murphy: And so I you know went rehearsals and previews and opened it, and then during the run I was shooting the series which was local obviously mostly shooting out in New Jersey and at a Long Island and some sound stages in Brooklyn, I think.

[1:10:13] Donna Murphy: And there were days that were super long where I was, you know, getting up at four in the morning and going and working because they knew they had to have me out by a certain time to go to the theater.

[1:10:27] Donna Murphy: But I just felt like I'm living the dream right now.

[1:10:31] Donna Murphy: I'm living the dream. And my husband had already had two years of health crises, and we both were in what we call this honeymoon from that, where he was healthy and I could be freer about taking work, because I had not been able to for a little bit and.

[1:10:52] Donna Murphy: And so we both were grabbing it wherever we could and it was joyful and it was happening locally and our daughter you know we came home to our child at night and it was heavenly.

[1:11:04] Donna Murphy: So, that's one of the things I remember about that time.

[1:11:10] Ben Rimalower: What was the process like for you? I mean when you talk about the experience you'd had watching Into the Woods where it didn't quite give you that ending the same emotional feeling you had listening to the album.

[1:11:21] Ben Rimalower: Was that something that you then were able to discover in working on the piece?

[1:11:26] Donna Murphy: Well, it's a completely different process.

[1:11:27] Donna Murphy: Perspective because I mean not that I could never be objective watching that show because I, as somebody who auditioned for it, I did step inside it at some point even if it was, you know, a limited visit, but it's not the same as watching something fresh, you know. But, um, and it's not like I thought, well, I'm only interested in doing this if we've fixed something that I couldn't even name what it was, you know. I just knew it was a beautiful show and I'm never searching for the perfect project, I'm searching for the interesting project because the project that excites me, that I think says things or gives an audience an opportunity to feel things and think about things in a provocative way.

And I don't mean just dramatically, you know, it can be a comedy, it can be a broad-ass comedy that just allows people to feel joy and release at a time that they might not otherwise do have that. So I just was like, wow, Into the Woods is coming my way and I get to do it at the public. And the thing is that, you know, I'd had just one other experience at the public and that was doing Drood in the park, I mean on stage. Yeah, but you know, years ago somebody, a friend of mine, was trying to put together a book of people in their favorite locations in New York and mine was the Delacorte theater. And we took pictures of, he said, so, oh, you mean performing at the Delacorte? I said, no, both in the audience watching shows because I would try to go every summer to see Shakespeare or whatever was happening there.

And then I also would, we love to see, I love to go to the public works projects that would be there. And so we took photos of me sitting in the audience and photos of me laying on the stage and gazing up. And it really is to me the most magical theater in New York with all due respect to all the other amazing theaters. And so magical for that show, I mean, just it seemed like just the most natural, you know, intuitive choice. And seeing how it worked in Regents Park, you know, I was very impressed with what I saw. And in my sit down with Tim Sheeter, who's one of the directors, he said, you know, did you see the, you know, the video we sent the link to? I said, yes. And he said, so you know, you saw what we were doing with the witch and we want to go kind of further with that idea of her becoming the spell being that she is becoming part of the woods and that's happening.

And that is part of what is driving her, you know, to have the spell broken within this limited time frame of these three midnights. And I loved the idea of it. I thought it was brilliant and challenging. And interestingly enough, he said, you know, I wasn't really familiar with your work and I went, I'm not laughing, like can you imagine someone not familiar with my work, Ben? No, but I was like, why is he sitting down with me? He said, but then I did see you in this show, the people, the people. I said, oh, the people in the picture? And he said, yeah. And he said, and what struck me was that you made these transformations, you know, sometimes with the assistance of a wig and sometimes without.

There were your points where you, you know, you were 30 some odd years old and then you were 90 or 88 or whatever we decided that character was. He said, and you would just physically shift it, you know, and your voice and you could do that. He said, and this role and her transformation, we aren't yet sure exactly what it's going to be and how it's going to happen, but the idea of having in you an actress who is comfortable with diving into how that happens physically and emotionally and with as much help or as little help, you know, in terms of the costume and wig and makeup elements as we decide, you know. And I said, yeah, I love transformation of all kinds, emotional transformation, psychological transformation, physical transformation.

And life, every moment is about change. So I, you know, I'm, I love all of these ideas. The one thing I did say to them was to do what you're talking about doing with her physically because as they started to talk about her having, you know, her arms would be these branches. Yeah, I would move with, you know, these kinds of, they basically were like the crutches that you see that go around like the forearm of a person who needs to use them. But they would look like branches and, you know, or the beginnings of young tree trunks or something. And then there was the rest of it, but I was most concerned with that because that takes up a lot of space and you move differently through space. And I just said, I really hope we can work on that before I'm in a room with the rest of the cast because it just feels like that's going to take some development.

And I'm not saying I need my own workshop, but let's do some work so that I don't feel like I'm wasting other people's time and I know what I'm doing and we know as you're staging something like the space that I take up when I come into the other character's space. And unfortunately, everybody was on the same page about that initially, but one of the great frustrations for me was that it's just the way timing kind of spun out. They, Tim was working on something else and the co-director, who was lovely and whose name is escaping me at this moment, who's a wonderful stager and choreographer, and he was doing the musical staging for the film of Les Mis. Liam Steele, yeah. Liam, yes, Liam. And Liam was really the person who was going to get in deep with me about that, those physical aspects of it.

And they were running over on the filming of Les Mis and so they couldn't get to me in time. And so we were trying to do some Zoom things and we were having costume fittings where we were Zooming, but it was like how do we make these decisions without having some idea or making, you know, a decision that takes us some distance but then testing it in certain ways and saying, okay, yes, this, but okay, this is going to take up this much space. Are we really going to have the space for it with the rest of what you envision the set design to be? And so it was a, you know, I think I had a day in a room with them and then I was in rehearsal with everybody else. And in the rehearsal room, only once we really were working in the taped off space and we had many levels, you know, and people running around and coming down staircases and jumping, going up staircases.

And I was very concerned about that, not just my safety, but just how me moving in spaces with other people. And I know that it did frustrate some actors. I later heard, you know, at a point and it sort of blew up at one moment when we were on the set. And first of all, it was tough because, you know, they were building the set and we stage managers brought us there to give us kind of a preview. They said the day before the whole cast was having a preview. They said, if you want to go up and take a look. And I went up and I didn't have my arms, my crutches with me, but I certainly had an idea and I thought these, some of the sort of like bridges, you know? Yeah, I remember them. Yeah. They really weren't wide enough and also they were open in places that I thought, well, my crutch could go right through that.

And then the time allotted to travel and stuff, you really had to run. Everybody was running and that was stressful for everyone. And then the surface that we were working, so just safety things, sure, that I was concerned about. And then there was just some point where I also had to be rigged to fly so that I could get up to Rapunzel's. Yes. And the rig, something went wrong at some point and we were all rehearsing in the, you know, 90 degrees that felt like 110, you know, out in the park. And I, it was like a tech, but it was daytime still. So it was like a, I don't know, I was not in my dress for her full costume. So it wasn't a tech dress, but I was saying, I'm sorry, we have to stop. And then I remember an actor got really, really frustrated and directed it at me.

And then, you know, basically implied that I'd been taking time up, you know, and that everybody had issues to deal with. And of course he was right. Everybody does have their own issue in any production. And this is what I was trying to have foresight about. And it just, you know, there wasn't the time to, yeah, do that. We all did our best. We all did our best. It's still, it was, you know, I can't, there was tension in that process, but it also at the same time was magical. Yes, it was so magical. I mean, I'm surprised I didn't know there was tension there. I suppose it should never be surprising on any show, but you shouldn't know. You know, you shouldn't know from watching. No, absolutely.

You don't want to talk about those things when you're doing it because you don't want to taint people's experience. No, no, no one was hurting anybody intentionally. Yeah. You know, nobody was being abused or anything like that. It just was tough. Yeah. Some of these different processes, especially when they're not particularly long, but they're still a process and everybody's trying to find their way through and you all have different ways of working and different physical challenges and acting challenges and vocal challenges and personal challenges too. Yeah. So that person and I have, you know, seen each other since and, you know, all is well. And it just, but that is, you know, honestly some of what goes on in these situations.

You know, do those moments get easier as you have more experience behind you, as you've, you know, lived to tell the tale of more things like that? Yes and no in that. I mean, I cried my eyes out when I realized that person was mad at me and that there were others that maybe were sort of more in his circle than in mine. You know, I don't mean what they were a bunch of little circles, but it seemed like, oh shit, looks like there's some other people who were involved in a lot of that person's scenes, right? You know, that had been encountering the same problems with like, we're just trying to rehearse this scene and here comes crazy witch lady with the crutches and it's like all about how does she move across and not knock one of us out or, you know.

And so, but I was really upset that that person was upset and that anybody else might be upset and that, I don't know, you know, you wish in those circumstances that there is a, the captain is going to kind of say or the, you know. I'm editing myself. Yeah, yeah. It's you, you don't want to have to be, I have in a number of productions felt like, oh, I'm the evil point maker about some things that are not working. Yeah. And someone who has not wanted to necessarily take responsibility for that. That's honestly, I'm just going to be honest about it. You know, it's not really my job to talk about the set design. No, this is not the first time that I've been on a set where there's a problem and I've had to point it out and then someone, and then the director or a producer gets pissed off at me.

But ultimately the problem is real. I'm not right, like making it up so that I can be a diva for some random reason. Yeah. I either, if anything, it seems like being in your position in the industry and certainly in a cast like Into the Woods, you actually have a responsibility because everyone's on that set who might, you know, be too afraid of the ramifications.

[1:25:45] Donna Murphy: If they speak out. Yes, and I had said there are children in this show. There are children and you want them to run around. You know, so, and I remember, you know, I took my responsibility. It wasn't just about me. I remember after that having a meeting with producers, a line producer, Dan, a beautiful woman who was doing that at that time. And a lot of people, not the public and our tech director and our set designer. And, you know, and saying, I only want to be part of the solution here, but I'm nervous for us. I'm nervous. And there was something else that happened in the course of that. That was something that I had said, guys, I'm worried about this surface and whether it gets slippery when it's wet.

And it did. And so things happen and you try to, and I still believe that most people are doing the best they can. That's just, that manifests differently for different people. And it manifests different for different people at different times in their lives. You know, so that's why I, you know, I'm always like, I don't like to just say this person is irresponsible or, you know, because circumstances inform people in different ways at different times. But I certainly was at a point where I'd been in enough situations where I'd seen people get hurt unnecessarily. I'd seen, you know, problems arise that should have been addressed earlier than they were. And I really, it's a tough ongoing thing with me in that I want people to like me.

I was raised to be a good girl. And I was also told, you know, as one of, as the oldest of seven, don't be selfish, don't be selfish. And I've been accused of being selfish. I've been accused of not being a team player. And honestly, it's not true. But I will say when I was younger, maybe it was harder for me to, I didn't feel like I had a right to express certain things. And I remember going to do a musical. It was an early incarnation of Pal Joey that Rich Greenberg had done the adaptation for. Right. This is another legendary Donna Murphy role. And I played Vera up at the Huntington Playhouse. And I had whatever, whatever I'd just come from doing. And then when we were in rehearsal, I was a last minute replacement for another like remarkable female icon who was having such an incredible time in her career, Jean Smart.

I was a last minute replacement for Jean who had to withdraw. And I was, anyway, we were in rehearsal and I was, I guess I was kind of doing the, gee, I hate to stop the process and ask a question, but could I ask a question? And our director was a wonderful friend. Somebody became a wonderful friend, David Warren. And he and Rich at one point said, why are you constantly apologizing for asking intelligent questions? And I said, I don't know. I just don't want to interrupt anybody's process or feel like I'm slow. And they're like, but that's what you do. Yeah. Both of them had done mostly plays. Yeah. And they said, maybe it's because you've done mostly musicals. And, you know, there is, maybe there's more of a sense in those situations.

Like you hit your mark. Right. And you go there because George Abbott told you to go there. Yeah, right. So. But I mean, you're Donna Murphy. You're this Sondheim Lapine. I mean, you represent the pinnacle of the opposite kind of musical theater from like, shut up and hit your mark, you know? I know. I mean, I mean, I have had to shut up and hit my mark. You know, when I've had to do it, I've sort of done that. I probably still ask some questions, but I just want to make sense of things. Yeah. I want us, I want us to be in conversation about it so that we're all trying to, we don't have to work the same way. But we're like, I want to know I'm serving people's visions and intentions. And so in answer, about an hour ago, you asked me the question, does it get easier?

I guess it gets easier because I kind of go, look, I know why I ask these questions. Right. And I know that I'm not only looking out for myself as an artist. I was trained, I studied with Stella Adler, and it was not just your job to look out for your part, to look out for the play. Yeah. Always were looking out for what, for protecting the author and supporting the author and defending the author. And that's how, and you're collaborating with your other artists. And as a human being, I know what I'm trying to do in my time here on the planet. And it's, there's nothing that is destructive about it. Yeah. There's, I come from a place of love and I come, I have been a perfectionist. I still work on really trying to distinguish between a sincere pursuit of excellence and recognizing the difference between that and a neurotic perfectionism.

I don't really want that anymore in my life. No. I don't. I don't. Yeah. And I think I'm much better at being able to distinguish that. And I think there were things that taught me, things that were, you know, I was in positions where I had to accept that what I was doing at that moment, however it was manifesting itself, was good enough. And it didn't mean that I stopped trying to improve upon it, but if I got locked into, this isn't good enough, it was making me rigid. It was making me not free to discover more. No, we definitely want that from you. I mean, I remember seeing you in Wonderful Town. I think it was three times and it was just, you know, it was such a, each time it was like all, even when you would do a sort of similar bit to something you had done, like in Find Way to Lose a Man, there was such a sense of discovery and, you know, fresh, just madness in it that it was such a delight, you know.

Fresh madness. What fresh madness is this? Well, that is the joy of it though. Really, it's the challenge and it's the joy of it, but that's what keeps it joyful for me. How about the material that's changed? I mean, you're in a unique position with Into the Woods because when you auditioned for the original, you were learning Boom Crunch. And then when you were a fan listening to the original cast recording, it was the first version of Last Midnight. Yes. And then when you played the witch, it was the final, you know, revised version of Final for Now. Well, I suppose it's all final now because, you know, we no longer have Steve to futz with it. But, you know, what is your, I know a lot of people struggled.

Certainly, Betty Buckley has talked about struggling with Boom Crunch. And then I know that, you know, Bernadette was really eager for them to take a look at it and, you know, so thrilled with Last Midnight coming in. But other people had talked, especially like Paul Ford and other people in the cast with such fondness for Boom Crunch. And it's, you know, it's hard for me to have that take because, of course, I knew Last Midnight for decades before I ever heard Boom Crunch. So it just sounds different, you know. But having learned that first, what was your feeling about it in comparison to what Last Midnight gives us? Well, when I learned it, I thought it was brilliant, incredible, dynamic, exciting, dangerous, funny.

Yeah. Well, not like in a gag, it was clever and weird. Yeah, yeah. And there's nothing like it. Had I ever sung anything like that or learned anything like that? Never, ever. Had he ever written anything like that? Never, ever. So there was nothing to compare it to, and I loved it. And then, yes, when I saw the show and I heard Last Midnight, I was like, holy shit, I know some of this, but I don't know all. It became this other thing. It was an incredible, like, exciting surprise. Then, interestingly enough, when I auditioned for the film Tangled, which was called Rapunzel, when I auditioned for it, again, nothing's a short story with Donna Murphy, but I'll tell you the shorter version in that I got the wrong direction initially for what I was supposed to learn musically.

I was told which role I was auditioning for, Mother Gothel, who was based on the witch character from Rapunzel, but they had a different character description. I mean, just more details in terms of how she was written in the show, in the film. But musically, I was told to sing like a folky song, like a Joni Mitchell song. I was like, what? So then I went crazy for a few weeks trying to do a spin on both sides of Wildflowers. And then I finally, I was like, I knew Alan this much because I had been a vacation replacement in Little Shop a gazillion years ago, Alan Menken, but I knew James was very close with Alan, and I said, James, you know, I know this isn't your show, but it's Alan's, and would you ask him if this direction sounds right?

And then I got word that, no, no, we want like a big show tune, a big show tune. And I was like, okay. So then I was thinking, I was thinking about the character and I went, I'm going to sing Last Midnight, but I'm going to shape it very differently. And so it did not start out in this driving waltz, you know, and it stopped and started and I spoke more of it and I, anyway, I didn't, I made choices that were, that I thought would serve the Mother Gothel that I was auditioning for and had a lot of fun with it. And so then when we were doing the show, I did talk with Paul about how much freedom we could have exploring the shape of it. And I really don't remember what I did, but I do remember that we had some freedom.

And, and I feel like it started differently. I'd have to go, you know, find things that are not supposed to be out there. Well, we all, we all are grateful for those things. What the hell I did do. But I do know that, that Steve gave us some, some freedom and, and he was around, you know, and it was so beautiful to have him around. And since the show is about this show, meaning your podcast is about the show, it's about the show. There's a couple of specific things I really want to share. Oh, wonderful. Thank you. Steve and the process. So it's not like he was there all the time, but he would come in and visit rehearsals periodically. And he was very supportive, the work that I was doing. And in terms of my own personal encounters with him while we were in the rehearsal room and we moved outside.

And, and the sweet, sweet memory that I have of him is he would, at the Delacorte, I don't know what it will be when they finish their renovation, but there were these volms, the, you know, the exits and entrances that went down and go through the house, come up onto the stage and, and you, when you exit, if you go all the way through them, they take you back into like the dressing room areas. And he would be at the end of the show, many nights waiting at the, like at the end of those volms to, to congratulate and say thank you to cast members as they'd come off. And it just, and he often had tears in his eyes or tears streaming down his face. He loved it so much. I don't mean, I mean, I, I, I think he liked the production, but he loved and appreciated the work.

[1:40:02] Donna Murphy: In the woods, the people of New York, and we would see them. I would see them as I would be leaving the theater at night. People would be lined up with their sleeping bags to sleep over so that when the line started in the morning, they would have a good spot. And I mean, you just, it was so powerfully moving to see what people were willing to do, to see what we were going to be, you know, we would be doing the same thing the next night. It was so amazing. And we were all under the open sky, nature's open skies together. And just remarkable. And the other thing is that we played around with, he still was playing around with the finale. And while we were doing the show, the screenplay for the movie was being worked on.

And my friend Rob Marshall was directing that and directed that. And he was working with James and with Steve, but with James on the screenplay. And so those meetings were happening. And so they would come in and say, you know, we have an idea about the structure of the finale. There weren't like major changes happening in scenes because we weren't doing a stage version of what was going to be the movie. But they were discovering things in their conversations and such. And so the finale had, you know, some different structures. I mean, I was so happy that I got to sing that verse part, you know, what do you say to a child in the night? And children will listen.

[1:42:01] Donna Murphy: Yeah, yeah. And children will listen at the end. There were so many lyrics for me that resonated so differently than they ever would have if I had played the role of the witch at, whatever that was, 27 years old. Or even 37 years old, because I was a mother. I mean, I've been a stepmom since I was 21 years old, basically, when I got my husband. But I had not raised a child, you know, from infancy. And I had lost my father the year before. We'd all been through 9-11, which was a kind of experience, you know, as a country, as community, as citizens of New York, as citizens of the world, that something that I in my lifetime had never experienced anything like that. There was something about carrying that forward.

I'm not saying that those were like active conversations that we had in the interpretation of the show. But I'm just saying, as a human being, I just felt, and I had parented through very difficult times on many different levels, and experienced loss on many different levels, and the fear of loss, that really just filled me as a human being. I had more to bring. I had more to give. And as I would stand on that stage and sing those lyrics or speak those words, I just, it was yet another layer of what Steve and James meant in my life as teachers, as gift givers, because they have given me so many gifts before they ever knew me.

[1:44:26] Donna Murphy: And Steve, in collaboration with other collaborators, and then Steve and James, and then James, a play of his, you know, so, I mean, they've given me so many gifts on so many levels. And so, I never lost, I mean, those runs aren't long enough that you ever feel like you're bored in what you're doing. I assure you of that. I can't imagine anybody was ever bored. You're just hanging on to every moment and every opportunity and still feeling like, oh, my God, I hope I get a little closer to what this could be, you know. But anyway, so I remember, you know, Steve saying, you know, Donna, I think we're going to go back to this lyric, both in Last Midnight, where we were playing with lyrics, and in the finale.

And I don't know what other actors may have had any changes, but I know, I really feel like that may have been happening because they were playing around with things in terms of the screenplay, which was a ways from going into production. And I was always happy to be a part, it was exciting, because I was a part of, you know, we were in the lab together, and so happy to be a part of like, a very exciting experiment. And it just made it feel that much more alive and creative. And I always love Steve's notes, because they resonate on so many levels, not just the level of the composer.

[1:46:08] Donna Murphy: And then I would say my last encounter was actually not that production. But that production led to it. So while I was doing that production, they were working on the screenplay for the film. And not that long after we closed, and you know, there was talk of that production moving, there was some seed money, I think, in it, seed money for listeners who may not know what that is. Commercial producers who invest some money in a nonprofit production of something, with the hopes that it might make a move a commercial move. Yeah. And I remember one of the people involved in that saying, you know, talking about the Broadway production, like it was a given. And I was like, I'm not doing that with that with this in mind.

I don't even know if I could do it. Yeah, you know, it was it was a fit for me at that time, in terms of the series, in terms of being a mom, it was a limited run, all that was fine. If it went on from there, you know, we don't figure out what we're going to do. But if that did not happen, and the reviews were mixed on it, but it was still magical. And I know it brought a lot of people joy. And that was amazing to be a part of. And then there was, I learned that there was a reading that was scheduled to happen for the studio of that was for Disney, I guess.

[1:47:59] Donna Murphy: Yeah. Of the screenplay. And it was involving a lot of people that they planned on casting, and then some people that they were kind of thinking they might cast. But Meryl, who was really the reason or a big part of the reason that it was being greenlit, was not going to do the reading. And so Rob and John reached out to me and asked if I would do it. And I said, I will sit in Meryl's chair. She wants me to. I will warm it up, or whatever you want to call it. Happy to do it. So that was like a three or four, crazy three or four day process. And I was like, I don't know how to do this part without branches for arms. And, you know, whatever you call what was growing the mold and whatever that was growing all over my face, was very strange.

But that happened. And it was an incredible group of people. Because, I mean, it was, you know, Christine Baranski. And it was Anna Kendrick, you know, in the bathroom before the reading going, I'm not a real soprano. I can't do that. You're great. Don't worry. You were fantastic. Do not worry about this. And it was Jim, James Corden. Yeah, there's a lot of the people who ended up doing it. And then and then with all due respect to, did Tracey Ullman play Jack's mother? Yeah, it was incredible. But it was Allison Janney. Oh, fantastic. Who was also like, great to just get to hang out with Allison Janney was so much fun. I bet. And she was wonderful. And she was not available. And how fantastic was Tracey? I mean, yeah, just gold everywhere you looked.

[1:49:55] Donna Murphy: And so that was exciting and wacky. And, and it was, I got to be in the room again with Steve and James, you know, I mean, and, and Rob and John, who are dear friends. So that was very cool. And, um, and I guess that was my that was really my last time inside of it. Inside into the inside into the woods. I love that could be another podcast name. Don't have me on because there's really nothing there's nothing worse.

[1:50:26] Ben Rimalower: No, you're the greatest. This has been absolutely such a privilege and a delight. I'm so I'm so grateful.

[1:50:35] Donna Murphy: My pleasure. I know you've been trying to get me here for a while. And I really have genuinely wanted to do it because I do feel like it's such a huge part of my life. And as Steve and James are on so many levels. And there's so many overlapping elements of how they are part of the tapestry of my life and how this and how it involves this show. Yeah, as well, you know, so thank you for your patience.

[1:51:11] Ben Rimalower: Oh, and for being such a font of information in regard to the wins and the wares and the wherefores. Because I don't remember a lot of that stuff, though, though. I do remember other details.

[1:51:22] Donna Murphy: You remember a lot. It's pretty wonderful.

[1:51:24] Ben Rimalower: Blessing and a curse, honey, let me tell you.

[1:51:28] Donna Murphy: Yes, right. Tell Mary Lou Henner.

[1:51:30] Ben Rimalower: Right, right. Right. No, I don't. I don't have that kind of memory.

[1:51:32] Donna Murphy: No, that's a blessing, too.

[1:51:36] Ben Rimalower: Let me ask you one more question, Donna, and I'll cut this if you if you want me to. But there's a rumor that you've probably heard at some point, or maybe someone's asked you that you did some singing for Meryl in the movie, which was so rude.

[1:51:46] Donna Murphy: Yeah, so wrong. Yeah. And that pisses me off. Yes, it really pisses me off. It's flattering if anybody thinks that's me. But nobody sang for Meryl. Yeah, Meryl. 100%. And please don't cut this out. Because if there's anybody who doubts it, I want it to be known.

[1:52:20] Ben Rimalower: Right. Great.

[1:52:21] Donna Murphy: You know, it just it's not true. And I don't even know. I don't know where this shit starts.

[1:52:27] Ben Rimalower: Yeah.

[1:52:28] Donna Murphy: Maybe it comes off of like, oh, well, she did the reading.

[1:52:32] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, maybe that I didn't even know about the reading.

[1:52:36] Donna Murphy: And I guess Meryl did come to see us in the park, you know, and who knows who starts that germ of dirt, you know, starts the germ in the dirt. I don't know what metaphor to use.

[1:52:53] Ben Rimalower: Yeah, yeah.

[1:52:54] Donna Murphy: Well, I'm glad to be able to put it to rest. I mean, listen, it's a great compliment to Meryl that people would listen to her singing and think she could be this fabulous Broadway musical star. You know, if that's what Meryl wanted to do, she would have done it. You know what I mean? Because she has all the gifts needed. But thank you.

[1:53:13] Ben Rimalower: So do you, Donna. You could easily be called the Meryl Streep of musical theater. No question.

[1:53:19] Donna Murphy: That's amazing. If I have to be labeled somehow, I'll take that one.

[1:53:25] Ben Rimalower: Gladly. And more importantly, you're the Donna Murphy of the world.

[1:53:30] Donna Murphy: Oh, thank you, Ben.

[1:53:31] Donna Murphy: Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your night. And I hope that your daughter is well soon and that your dog can have all the attention she wants.

[1:53:42] Ben Rimalower: I want to say the dog. Wait, let's see if I can shift this for a minute.

[1:53:47] Donna Murphy: Oh, precious. What a good girl.

[1:53:50] Ben Rimalower: Pippi, were you a good girl? You're a good girl.

[1:53:53] Donna Murphy: I love her.

[1:53:54] Donna Murphy: Say bye, Ben. Sorry, I bugged you earlier.

[1:53:58] Ben Rimalower: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Donna.

[1:54:03] Donna Murphy: Thank you for listening to Giants in the Sky. How Sondheim and Levine went into the woods on the Broadway Podcast Network.