This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Tommy: I feel like we've been doing funny voices and now I'm...

[0:02] Jimmy: We have, I know. Do like funny but low-key.

[0:09] Tommy: Welcome to Jim and Tomic's Musical Theatre ASMR Happy Hour. I'm Tom.

[0:16] Jimmy: Side-splitting, honestly. And I'm Jimmy. This is the only musical theatre podcast with SojuSips.

[0:25] Tommy: And MTI Scripts. Here, we take apart your favourite shows, muddle them together with a shot of buffoonery, and pour you a refreshing glass of musical theatre conversation.

[0:33] Jimmy: Tommy, what are you drinking today?

[0:46] Tommy: Was that it? You're just drinking?

[0:50] Jimmy: I'm just drinking just to get through. I saw a TikTok the other day that said, are you a cis het white, are you a cis heterosexual white man? Do you find yourself afflicted by this? Well, then you might be entitled to... And that was it. Oh no, I screwed it up. It just said, you might be entitled. That was the joke. Isn't that a funny joke?

[1:11] Tommy: Both work. Both work. There's no liquids mentioned in this show?

[1:18] Jimmy: They make a joke about throwing a kegger. Great.

[1:26] Tommy: Well, there you go. That's what I'm drinking.

[1:30] Jimmy: We had a really baffling and confusing quiz question last time, didn't we?

[1:34] Tommy: We absolutely did. I have to try and read it again.

[1:38] Jimmy: Good luck. Okay. I should put some fun background music in. I should have done that last time.

[1:45] Tommy: Or like, yeah, hit me with some classic royalty free tracks.

[1:52] Jimmy: I was going more like a Careless Whisper.

[1:56] Tommy: That was Careless Whisper. A classic. Anyway, looking for love. Boy, have we got the show for you. We're developing a dating app named After Our Next Show. It pairs you with another performer who has played the exact same character in the show. Just hear these rave reviews from our two happy couples.

[2:19] Jimmy: That was shit. Everyone, we're so sorry. We've been doing this for 99 episodes.

[2:25] Tommy: Like today, exactly. You got to give us one or two terrible quiz questions or 10 or 12. Who knows?

[2:34] Jimmy: Hey, it's future editing Jimmy here. I'm speaking to you from the future. I just realized that we never actually explained what that quiz question was all about. That incredible quiz question. Basically, meaning that Ben Platt and Noah Galvin and Taylor Trench and Ben Levy Ross, I was going to say are all dating, but no, they are two separate respective couples, but they have all played Evan. And that's weird, isn't it? Because, you know, same part, same show. A lot of love. So that's what that meant. Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, back to the show.

[3:14] Tommy: Yeah. But hey, hey, it's Dear Evan Hansen.

[3:20] Jimmy: Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

[3:25] Tommy: Dear Evan Hansen, we've been way too out of touch.

[3:30] Jimmy: Things have been crazy and it sucks that we don't talk that much.

[3:34] Tommy: But I should tell you that I think of you each night.

[3:39] Jimmy: I rub my nipples and start moaning with delight.

[3:45] Tommy: Why would you write that?

[3:46] Jimmy: I'm just trying to tell the truth. This needs to be perfect. These emails have to prove that we were actually friends.

[3:49] Tommy: Just I'll do it. I gotta tell you, life without you has been hard, has been bad, has been rough.

[3:59] Jimmy: And I miss talking about life and other stuff. Very specific. I like my parents. Who says that?

[4:07] Tommy: I love my parents. But each day's another fight. If I stop smoking drugs, then everything might be all right.

[4:15] Jimmy: Smoking drugs. Just fix it. If I stop smoking crack.

[4:24] Tommy: Crack? If I stop smoking pot, then everything might be all right.

[4:32] Jimmy: I'll take your advice. I'll try to be more nice. I'll turn it around. Wait and see. Cause all that it takes is a little free invention.

[4:44] Tommy: I've realized a fatal flaw in our quiz question structure is it's always in the title of the podcast. So by the time...

[4:50] Jimmy: I mean, we realized that, I think we realized that on the first quiz question, which I think might have been Spring Awakening. And we were like, oh wait, this is pointless.

[5:03] Tommy: But people weirdly get to get into it.

[5:08] Jimmy: I'm glad. I'm glad they do. You know, it is fun.

[5:12] Tommy: It is. I have fun with it.

[5:18] Jimmy: Yeah. Welcome to our Dear Evan Hansen podcast.

[5:22] Tommy: Hey, Dear Evan Hansen, if it's a show you haven't heard of before, that's fascinating, but go listen to it, maybe. I do want to start this off there, obviously with Dear Evan Hansen, content warning about discussion of suicide and some mental health issues. I think this show, in its actual incarnations, does a really bad job of having any kind of content warnings around it.

[5:40] Jimmy: And it's the kind of show that needs it. So I want to be better. Content warning, suicidal ideation, suicide, and mental health issues.

[5:49] Tommy: Indeed. But hey, music and lyrics by Mr. Pasek and Paul.

[5:55] Jimmy: The Golden Boys.

[5:56] Tommy: You get the Golden Boys, very much so. And the book by Mr. Steven Levinson.

[6:01] Jimmy: Yes, it opened on Broadway in 2016. These are few and far between. I saw the last preview performance of Dear Evan Hansen before it opened in 2016.

[6:12] Tommy: You absolutely did.

[6:13] Jimmy: It would go on to win the Tony for Best Musical, and then it opened the West End in 2019 and won the Olivier. And I believe, started a tour or has a tour planned?

[6:25] Tommy: Over your way?

[6:26] Jimmy: I believe so.

[6:28] Tommy: Nice. Who knows?

[6:28] Jimmy: We have no say in that yet.

[6:30] Tommy: But yeah.

[6:30] Jimmy: Well, exactly. I think it will open back up in London again, and it will do extremely well.

[6:36] Tommy: No doubt the same in the States as well.

[6:39] Jimmy: Absolutely. But right. Do you want to, you've seen it?

[6:43] Tommy: I've seen it. I'll give it a go.

[6:44] Jimmy: In the flesh.

[6:44] Tommy: Yeah.

[6:45] Jimmy: Not that I have.

[6:48] Tommy: You've seen it in the false flesh? What's the...

[6:52] Jimmy: The slime?

[6:53] Tommy: Like the Doctor Who flesh?

[6:55] Jimmy: I mean, I was going to then say the slime tutorial flesh, which also would fit a Doctor Who episode.

[7:03] Tommy: It would, yeah. Anyway.

[7:05] Jimmy: Dear Evan Hansen is the story of a senior boy in high school, Evan Hansen, who has some unspecified form of either social anxiety or neurodiversity that he's getting therapy for.

[7:22] Tommy: And one of the tasks his therapist tasks him with is writing a letter to himself, talking about how it's going to be a great day.

[7:28] Jimmy: His single mom insists that he writes this letter as he heads off to his first day of high school.

[7:32] Tommy: We also meet the family of Connor Murphy.

[7:38] Jimmy: Connor is a, well, his family doesn't like him.

[7:41] Tommy: They seem to have some problems.

[7:43] Jimmy: It's alluded to that he's a bit of a pothead.

[7:45] Tommy: He's also the school bully, and they all go to the same school.

[7:49] Jimmy: Evan is in love with Connor's sister in a very unrequited and distanced way, which he references in this letter that he writes to himself about how today is going to be a good day on the school computer.

[8:02] Tommy: He hits print, and in an unfortunate Three's Company style way, Connor Murphy finds this letter and thinks Evan's being kind of a creep, and steals it away from him and pushes him to the ground.

[8:16] Jimmy: Later that week, Connor Murphy dies by suicide, and it's a big, you know, obviously a huge event at their school.

[8:23] Tommy: And Connor's parents find the letter that Evan wrote in Connor's Things and assume that it is Connor's suicide note.

[8:32] Jimmy: This mistake snowballs into a series of lies that Evan perpetuates about how him and Connor were secretly best friends and had this secret email account, which then turns into a social media campaign about being found and not being alone in this world.

[8:51] Tommy: And eventually, of course, it all implodes in on Evan.

[8:55] Jimmy: And then the musical ends.

[8:58] Tommy: Yeah?

[9:00] Jimmy: Yeah, pretty good.

[9:02] Tommy: Did I miss any big beats?

[9:02] Jimmy: Evan gives a speech that goes viral on the internet.

[9:05] Tommy: The whole thing is kind of inspired-

[9:06] Jimmy: They raise a lot of money.

[9:08] Tommy: For a memorial orchard.

[9:10] Jimmy: Yeah, it's-

[9:11] Tommy: And Evan gets the girl.

[9:13] Jimmy: Evan does get the girl halfway through, and we might talk about some of that manipulation.

[9:19] Tommy: Um, but a contemporaneously set show, contemporary and contemporaneously set.

[9:26] Jimmy: The-

[9:26] Tommy: And completely original.

[9:27] Jimmy: Completely original, which we haven't seen-

[9:29] Tommy: Which we always like to applaud.

[9:30] Jimmy: A long, long time.

[9:31] Tommy: Very informed by, you know, you picture my air quotes, social media these days.

[9:39] Jimmy: Yes.

[9:39] Tommy: And our kind of laptop, iPhone-informed, Kickstarter, GoFundMe, viral video, feel-good kind of world.

[9:49] Jimmy: The whole- The set design and the sound design for this thing are stunning.

[9:53] Tommy: The whole background is filled with these kind of blurry images of social media scrolling past, and different bloops and bloops and ringtones that, you know, have become the underscore for our life.

[10:03] Jimmy: And for that, it is very, very cool.

[10:06] Tommy: And as well, like, it's not done in a way that is like, look, it's a text message.

[10:11] Jimmy: Yeah.

[10:12] Tommy: Facebook poke.

[10:13] Jimmy: Do you know what I mean?

[10:14] Tommy: It's not done-

[10:14] Jimmy: It is-

[10:15] Tommy: It feels authentic.

[10:16] Jimmy: It doesn't feel-

[10:17] Tommy: It feels-

[10:18] Jimmy: Annoying.

[10:18] Tommy: It feels authentic, and it does-

[10:20] Jimmy: And it's hard to say, because we are kind of in a stasis of how we, you know, maybe in the past 15 years, we haven't really re-engaged with how we do text messages and these sorts of things.

[10:29] Tommy: Like, there hasn't been a new revolution in that.

[10:31] Jimmy: But a lot of other pieces of media, when they approach any kind of contemporary technology, it becomes dated very quickly.

[10:40] Tommy: This one does a very good job, I would say.

[10:44] Jimmy: And like, this is a pet peeve of mine, when shows do this poorly.

[10:46] Tommy: This one does a very good job of having a decent understanding and representation of how normal humans interact with this technology.

[10:56] Jimmy: Exactly.

[10:57] Tommy: Exactly.

[10:59] Jimmy: Which, yeah, you have to applaud it for.

[11:01] Tommy: But should we dab in the applause?

[11:04] Jimmy: Let's go.

[11:05] Tommy: And start at the very beginning.

[11:06] Jimmy: We're gonna- I think we're gonna rip this off like a Band-Aid. Play some music, and then we'll talk about it.

[11:12] ♪ Musical number: "Waving Through a Window" — performed by the Original Broadway Cast of Dear Evan Hansen ♪

[12:01] Tommy: I wish I had side effects.

[12:03] Jimmy: Right.

[12:04] Tommy: How come we're not one of those podcasts that have a board?

[12:06] Jimmy: That has a soundboard.

[12:07] Tommy: You know people have a soundboard?

[12:08] Jimmy: They do, and I've looked into it.

[12:09] Tommy: It's hard to do just with our setup.

[12:13] Jimmy: And yeah, because we're not together. And we also, it's not one live take.

[12:17] Tommy: I know, so like Mabim Bam does-

[12:19] Jimmy: I think Justin has a soundboard on his end.

[12:20] Tommy: And it's hard to-

[12:22] Jimmy: Because you'd want it to be a separate track, right?

[12:25] Tommy: That still goes through the Skype so the other people can hear it.

[12:28] Jimmy: Like we ran into some of this with Unsung Heroes about how do we play music for each other but not have it burned into our track.

[12:36] Tommy: But I've put a lot of thought into it.

[12:38] Jimmy: Okay, thank you for that at least.

[12:41] Tommy: I didn't.

[12:41] Jimmy: I just was like, I want one.

[12:43] Tommy: I want to play side effects.

[12:44] Jimmy: Ha ha ha.

[12:46] Tommy: Anyway, so okay.

[12:49] Tommy: So normally our catchphrase is, we'll come back to that later.

[12:53] Jimmy: We feel like we did enough of that with the frogs.

[12:56] Tommy: We want to put some of this stuff up front.

[13:03] Jimmy: I've been trying this out. Old and broke Andrew Lloyd Webber- or old and tired Andrew Lloyd Webber, new and wired Pasek and Paul or Dear Evan Hansen.

[13:15] Tommy: I don't like-

[13:17] Jimi: I don't like this show.

[13:21] Tommy: Yeah.

[13:21] Jimi: For a lot of reasons.

[13:23] Tommy: I, you know, I don't like saying those words.

[13:26] Jimi: Right. Yeah.

[13:27] Tommy: Right. But what I would say is, I think this show could be better.

[13:31] Jimi: Yeah, it's fair.

[13:32] Tommy: Right.

[13:32] Jimi: But we're trying something new. We wanted to talk about these things up front, because they often inform some of the other stuff we talk about.

[13:39] Tommy: Exactly. And what I will say as well is, like, we appreciate that this show is not only liked by a lot of people, but, like, it has affected a lot of people in a very positive way.

[13:50] Jimi: In a very positive way. And I think this will come up and hopefully will shine through our conversation. Like, when I saw this show, it made me cry. Like, this show deeply moved me when I saw it in the theatre. And then, upon closer and further examination, there have been a lot of things that have really bugged me about it. And I do, you know, in my new leaf of letting people like things and trying and letting myself like things, I do find myself struggling against that in this world, right? Do I not like it because it is popular? And I think on self-assessment, that's not the case. I think I don't like it for legitimate problems that I really, really find with the show. And that some, there's, God, we're, we are up against the wall with this one, Jimmy. There's so much discourse and discussion about the show, because it is so popular.

[14:35] Tommy: And you're 10 years behind.

[14:36] Jimi: Exactly. And so.

[14:37] Tommy: As well. Like, you know what I mean?

[14:39] Jimi: Right. We're going to be reiterating points that I think a bunch of people stepped upon, probably less eloquently than they have done. But away we go.

[14:48] Tommy: But that's the show you pay for, kids.

[14:49] Jimi: Exactly. Enough, enough hedging. Let's talk about mental health.

[14:55] Tommy: Yeah.

[14:56] Jimi: It sucks that they never tell us what's up with everything.

[15:00] Tommy: What's going on? I completely agree. I don't think, I don't think there's, there would be any harm in it, right?

[15:06] Jimi: Well, I think the reason they're doing it is because since they don't want to offend anyone, they figure if we present this vague representation, then it will be impossible for anyone to be offended because we never really said what it was.

[15:20] Tommy: But in actual fact, I would say the opposite.

[15:22] Jimi: Right. It somehow makes it more damaging.

[15:24] Tommy: Because what's happened is, is people fill in the blanks, right? And when you have as strong a fandom as this show has, things that don't exist become canon. So suddenly, Evan has a social anxiety disorder. And that's just kind of generally accepted. And so if you say something contrary to that, actually, somehow you're wrong. When in actual fact, you're not wrong in any way.

[15:50] Jimi: Right. I was, I was because I was paying attention for it and analyzing it this time through. And mentioning that Evan has anxiety is the closest they get to naming what's up with him specifically. Now, I will say, Ben Platt and the actors that come after him are portraying something. And, you know, it's hard to talk about this stuff because it goes through different namings and you want to do it good justice. But is it some form of neurodiversity? Is it simply an adolescent social anxiety, which is pretty common and often does peter out as you get older?

[16:31] Tommy: Absolutely.

[16:32] Jimi: And they never specify. They make mention that he's on some form of medication, which he stops taking halfway through. They never say what it is. We know he's in some form of therapy, but we never see the therapy in the show. And like, I wish, I get that musicals have to move fast and have to cover a lot of plot really quickly. We could spend a little more time on what is like the inciting incident for how Evan is who he is.

[16:55] Tommy: I think so. I think it would be really important. So I think I personally will be making a lot of comparisons to Next to Normal as I go through.

[17:00] Jimi: Yeah.

[17:05] Tommy: And I think that's I think that's fair because I think it's trying to be Next to Normal in a lot of ways. There's loads of comparisons that can be made. I mean, there's what, seven, eight years in between the two of them. Um, but, uh, Next to Normal was really one of the first musicals to, to openly talk about mental health and it did it in an extremely, um, frank, right. But good way. Do you know what I mean? And the, you know, I mean, it was a known fact that Diane had bipolar disorder, right. Um, and that she was on many different treatments for that.

[17:37] Jimi: And it showed that the creators did the research into the, uh, you know, the type of neurodiversity she had.

[17:43] Tommy: Absolutely. And like, it was, it was an education. I learned a lot from it. Um, and I don't think necessarily the same thing is true here.

[17:54] Jimi: Not at all. They, they kind of, you know, the, the writing staff kind of took their vague idea of what this might be and wrote a character around it and it comes off as lazy. It really does.

[18:05] Tommy: Yeah. Um, and I, I, I think at times it can come off as a little bit dangerous.

[18:14] Jimi: Yes, exactly. Because now this is, this is kind of where the tricky stuff begins because a lot of people put the character of Evan on a pedestal, um, as like, there is me on a stage, right. I am seeing me on a stage. Um, and when you start to say, when you start to denigrate someone in that capacity, then a lot of people think you're saying that to me.

[18:35] Tommy: Right. Exactly. That isn't the case because I, I certainly wouldn't imagine that a lot of the people who say Evan is me have done nearly anywhere close to the damage that he has done. It feels like, and this is, you know, this is us subbing in ourselves in these things, but like there is good and bad and accurate and inaccurate gay representation on stage. Right. Um, and I think we have reactions to that too. I, you know, whatever last call we talked about James Corden in The Prom.

[19:11] Jimi: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[19:16] Tommy: And there's there, I can see a parallel line here. Right. And it's that balance of like representation matters and this is, you know, neurodiverse representation on stage, which is great. And you want it to be better.

[19:22] Jimi: Well, yeah. And I think you want it to be like authentic and real.

[19:31] Tommy: Um, because yeah, obviously there's a lot, I don't know. I've got less, I'm going to go very frank right at the top, but as someone with an anxiety disorder, do you know what I mean? Now the only difference is here, and I've thought about this a lot is I'm a 30 something year old with an anxiety disorder.

[19:47] Jimi: Um, I was also, uh, 17.

[19:49] Tommy: Yeah.

[19:59] Jimi: 17, 17, 18. When you're a senior.

[20:04] Tommy: Yeah. I was also 17 year old with an anxiety disorder as well. I just didn't know as much about it then.

[20:12] Jimi: Right.

[20:12] Tommy: Um, and I didn't know how to help myself and any of that. Um, but I think one of the things that I guess disappointed me straight off the bat with this is that Evan is getting help. Right. He is in therapy and he is on meds.

[20:23] Jimi: Um, and that's a good thing.

[20:29] Tommy: Yeah. You know, if they were working for him, right.

[20:29] Jimi: Um, then that's a really, really positive thing. And again, me as a young person with an anxiety disorder, seeing that I would be like, Hey, yeah, that's role modeling. Do you know what I mean?

[20:43] Tommy: But then he comes off the meds for no reason does, does lots of very, very bad things.

[20:53] Jimi: Um, that he kind of blames on his whatever.

[20:53] Tommy: Right. Right. Exactly. And so that I would be like, ah, don't can't relate. And it's, and it's kind of, it's kind of explained away and justified through his anxiety. And that's not a great look like, you know, like again, as someone with it, I would never want to be defined by my kid, like very much the opposite. If I could leave it in the dust. Right. Oh boy. Yeah. Would I like, absolutely. But it does seem like this is being used as a shield.

[21:35] Jimi: Right.

[21:35] Tommy: Um, and I find that just a bit disappointing because they never outright even go into what's up with Evan.

[21:44] Jimi: Yeah. We're already a step back from that, right? Like, yeah. You know, I've seen write-ups about like, is Evan on the autism spectrum? Like all, all sorts of different things, which there are justifications for, and it's a damn shame that the show is like so cowardly that it can't just come out and say it.

[22:02] Tommy: I know like 2016, you know, you, you can write characters like this better. Like when did Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime come out?

[22:17] Jimi: Right. Like years and years and years before, you know what I mean?

[22:17] Tommy: Like that. Absolutely.

[22:26] Jimi: Um, it, yeah, I do. I completely agree. And I think another kind of bastion in the same, the same boat here is with Connor.

[22:33] Tommy: Um, Oh God. Right.

[22:39] Jimi: Cause there's obviously, there's loads of parallels you can draw between these two characters.

[22:39] Tommy: Um, and I think to the, to the play's credit, it sets that up. Right. And then they lose, they lose that whole thing altogether.

[22:47] Jimi: Yeah.

[22:52] Tommy: Um, that's a big shame. One of the most beautiful and promising scenes in the show is the actual only scene that real Connor and Evan are in together in the computer lab where he takes the thing and he signs his cast. And there, there is this like, uh, tension there, right? We've been, Connor has been painted as this like unilateral bully and is, is perhaps legitimately doing something nice.

[23:11] Jimi: Um, but then he gets set off by what he considers as a bad joke about re, you know, misinterpreting this letter and then runs off. And then like from like a story structure standpoint, the next thing that happens is, you know, Connor dies by suicide. And the implication is that it's this letter that set him off.

[23:29] Tommy: Right. Which is perhaps like that's, that's bad.

[23:35] Jimi: Um, it's really bad. And then the next time we see him, he's a joke, right? He's a joke and he's, he's fake himself. Right. He's a figment of, uh, Evan and, uh, Jared's imagination.

[23:47] Tommy: And we never know the real Connor ever again.

[23:52] Jimi: Right. And like, we never know the real, all we hear are the, the big paintings of his family, whether it's in Requiem or some of the other scenes about like him being a psycho and a maniac and like, God, this, this stuff, Jimmy, like, it pisses me off. I hate this kind of shit.

[24:03] Tommy: I hate the, like you, like, God, oh, the joke, like the joke that set me off re going through it this time. When are we about to say the same thing? Is it school shooter chic? A school should like, come on.

[24:20] Jimi: Like, and pardon me, but fucking tone deaf. How fucking dare you? That needs to come out. And as a laugh line, like still an awkward laugh line, but a laugh line. How fucking dare you?

[24:35] Tommy: Um, like this is not the room for comedy. This is not the place for comedy. And like, I can see the justification about like, well, that's why Connor is the way he is because he faces this kind of bullying.

[24:46] Jimi: Bullshit. Give it more dimension or cut it from your fucking show.

[24:51] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. Connor's, and I hope, I hope it does get cut. I hope it does. I mean, there's no, there's no space for that. Connor's portrayal in the show, and you know, like, this is a writing problem. The actors do a fantastic job. Like, is tone deaf, one note, and informed by a, like, terrible dated 1990s view of the troubled teenager that has been a problematic viewpoint of adolescents for the past 20 years in this country.

[25:23] Jimi: Um, and like, that is enough reason alone for like me to be really, really flamey about this show.

[25:29] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Like the, the, all the way they deal with, um, Connor dying by suicide and like, and this is, you know, you can, you can smell, so Patsy and Paul are, they, a lot of this has been scrubbed because of how popular the show has been and how much of a bad look this is.

[25:41] Jimi: Um, but early on you could find articles about Patsy and Paul wanted to write a show that was almost a parody of viral Kickstarter reactions to tragic events.

[25:52] Tommy: Um, exactly. Cause it was based on, I think it was based on Benja's life.

[25:58] Jimi: Yes.

[25:58] Tommy: And like a, a similar event that happened in the school.

[26:03] Jimi: Which like, I don't want, you know, don't want to fault that people come from all sorts of different places, but like, it's a shitty topic for a piece of art, like parodying this sort of trauma and this tragic event.

[26:13] Tommy: Um, like, you know, and poking fun at it.

[26:20] Jimi: Yeah. I think that it's the poking fun. Like I think, I think it's a fascinating show. Like I really think it's a fast and like it, it isn't discussed at all. And it is so contemporaneous, right. But, um, yeah, it's not, it's not like.

[26:34] Jimi: Broadway jokesville, right? It's not like probably mainstream and you can see they pivoted and turned but like there's yes. There's still so much left in all of what is her name Alana's character about like, you know? Oh, we were acquaintances and like he's changed my life and you can see you can see they still must insist on poking fun at how people deal with tragedy and like yeah, you know, pardon me, but goddammit, Jimmy, I have taught kids who have had exactly friends who have died by suicide and have to deal with this shit and I've been in communities that have had to deal with this shit and how dare you pass a compel like yeah drives me nuts. It's really like and I think that's the core of my frustration is that there is so much, yeah, really complex, interesting, good material right in their show.

Yeah, but just it's just really poorly it misses the mark so bad like I have faculty room discussions about how like, you know, there are theories and I would put full faith into this that we're going to look on things like Facebook and Instagram and our kind of social media addiction in 20 years the way we look at nicotine and cigarettes now that like literally and I pray that we do it was this, you know, this terrible misguided, unregulated, you know a drug for the brain that has warped how we exist and like yeah, you can see it and you're right there's so much to explore there. And this is a show that is pretending to do it, but it does so like with such a big bat and so haphazardly that and and is becoming the bastion shining example quote-unquote of this thing and it's a really shitty example of it.

It's a shame like it's a real big shape. I think for me right the thing that could make it work, mm-hmm, and I do honestly believe it's fixable but they would need to change the ending yeah, right, and this is like a big big bug mayor of mine anytime you do any sort of writing and where you want to make your kind of antihero or flawed hero, right inverted commas where they need to get some sort of comeuppance, right? they need to yeah, because otherwise you're okay, right and like I can see stories. There are stories where the bad guy doesn't get his comeuppance and often that's the point of this story, right? Absolutely, and it's not he isn't he is the bad guy, right? And that is the story is that he is the bad guy and the bad guy wins and you feel that right whereas Evan is not a bad guy, right?

He's the he's the good guy. He's on the poster. His name's in the show he's the hero, you know, and he does really really bad things and is excused. Mm-hmm completely yeah exonerated and that isn't right, that just isn't right. It's not it's not the way the world should work, right? and it's not the way the world works for the most part unless you know you're a white suspect. Right? That isn't that isn't what the show's getting at. We're not we're not gonna break down into that but the yeah, it's I just think there's so there's so much like I say, there's so much in it that is good and interesting like the concept of you know, what good can come from bad right like? this idea of like what is the truth?

What's the point of the truth? Yeah, why don't you let you know? I mean live a lie like right wide. Why do we go to these things right? These are really complex. Yeah big big discussions that exist in this story, right and would still exist and you would be left questioning. Yeah if at the end it wasn't a happy ending, right? And I do think because I've seen some of this discourse to about like people who people who will say well that's the point right? You're supposed to be conflicted about how you feel about Evan and like you're supposed to see like he's a good person but he does these shitty things and doesn't get his comeuppance and that's supposed to leave you in this conflicted state and like I hear you and do you know who I'm conflicted about?

Sweeney fucking Todd like right and yeah and a musical can make me feel that and make me understand that right and can make me be all about him at the end of act one and really really scared of him at the end of act two, right? Right, you can actually do that in a musical if anything dear Evan Hansen maybe does it by accident but it is I would I would argue not intentional. No, I just don't think it does. I don't like your stomach slowly turns right all the way through but there's enough light shining on him that you're asking the question of rather than asking you know, how is Evan gonna make amends for this right? You're asking the question. Oh god, how is it gonna get out of this one? Right like and that isn't the question you should be asking in our in our world of fixing musicals like I think to your point the last scene should be perhaps Evan at the orchard he gets a text from Zoey that says sorry can't make it and like maybe his mom shows up and they have you know a little interaction and it's still his first time at the orchard yeah, and that still leaves us on perhaps a hopeful note, but he doesn't get unilaterally forgiven you know, he like there's still some consequence to your actions exactly like and the thing so one of the things that actually really frustrates me is the the final line where he's like I'm paraphrasing here, but he's like I'm here you're yourself.

No hiding. No lying. That's not true right everyone still believes this lie literally every single other person apart from the Murphys and his mom believes that he was the best friend of Connor and they've raised all this money to do this thing and within that is a really interesting argument because we wouldn't have the orchard if Evan didn't do this right, and the Murphys wouldn't have had a moment of consolation, right? He wouldn't be as close to his mom, you know I mean like these positive things came out of this bad, right, but he gets to sail through it. Yeah, that shouldn't be the case like there needs to be because otherwise, well, let's just do that. It doesn't matter. Well in it it does the show is trying to be indictment of technology, right and it's the the set design tries to do this by like you don't see all of the sky until we finally get to the orchard and that's yeah, it's in the music right all we see a sky there's this nature imagery of falling out of a tree and then we you know come full circle to the trees and like people being in person versus people being online and the conversations people the conversations Evan has either over the computer or in person like it's trying to be like, you know, the distance between us is the problem with us, but it's just a story about humans like it doesn't go deep enough into what what the show intends to be the problems with technology like it tries to hint at it when you know, the Murphys start getting hate calls after the suicide note gets published and like some of this other stuff and then tries to have this actual connection when Zoey is in person with Evan at the end but it just it's not about that and they thought it was like they wrote a show that wasn't about what they thought it was about and in the process missed a bunch of like really obvious fucking flaws and like terrible messages that they're sending alongside it.

I think like Zoe is a really crucial character here to discuss because you know, I go to town on I was like, I can't remember a character's name Christine from be more chill. That's yep. One of the worst Pixie dream girl trope, right exactly Zoe isn't a million miles away now. She's pretty sorry like she has no agency over her own life and I find that really yeah upsetting I mean her like, you know, I mean her her her perhaps most involved song is Requiem maybe requiem, but so like in requiem it's a song where she's been fully gaslighted right into being so confused. She doesn't know what to believe and obviously had this horrible horrible experience with this brother who was mentally abusive to her right right and is now being told that he was a good guy and deserves forgiveness.

And now she's struggling with that again. That's a fascinating theme, right? That is a facet because they're like there is elements of like well, it's kind of better to think the other way, isn't it? Right. Do you know I mean, but did he deserve that right? Oh, and it's all founded on this like one-note portrayal of Connor, which is already problem at like absolutely. Absolutely. And then at the end and she thanks him yeah, because he helped them cope with their grief, right? He like it's not real. It's not real. He was a manipulative lying piece of shit and you justified it away with an unspecified you know mental health issue like what are you trying to say? What's yeah, what is the moral of this show?

What am I to take out of this you will be found Evans not found you don't give me any honors not fine you don't give me any any ground to stand on on how I will be found and it's been really interesting to see post this show the show has sponsored a lot of like very legitimate TED talk style discussions oh yeah mental health and things which is great and I think that's awesome and it's it's money from art being put to good use and that's that is great and I would never want to diminish that your show doesn't do a good job. I really don't think so. I mean like that like that is it like the only way that that family could get over Connors and death by suicide was to believe a lie about how he was hurting right and rather than trying to process the truth about how much pain he was actually and they like hand wave away in like a scene maybe how shitty of a family they were to him yeah, like and then everything else just seems like such a ridiculous caricature of a depressed kid exactly that either this family is awful is just terrible, yeah, or we've we've missed the plot here.

Yep, right because they wouldn't be as white picket fence on the outside if they were so evil on the inside like none of its congruent in a way that it becomes difficult, you know, there is no verisimilitude there mm-hmm drives me nuts. Yep, it's so it's just so tricky and like it's one of those as we're discussing all this I'm hearing all the people switching off I know is they love this show so much and like it's the classic thing with this with this podcast like there are these moments of challenge and different difference of opinion and you you know I mean if you are one of the people who loves the show and relates so much to Evan that's fantastic and take away from any piece of art. Yep what you need to it is I wonder if this is a broader discussion, too and you know, maybe there's music to play in a transition somewhere in here but I am running into this more and more and I don't have a good answer because the world is facing a reckoning in a thousand different ways these days, right? and our we've talked about this before liking problematic things but yeah now that more and more things are becoming more detailedly problematic.

How do you like anything? Right, absolutely. And I think like I had that I think I tweeted a joke tweet about it which was reductive and I kind of regret a little bit but about hairspray the other day mm-hmm, because it came on my my like background musical theater playlist and like I really love the music from hairspray.

[39:51] Jimi: Hairspray tells a really problematic explanation of, you know, the plight of Black and Brown people in Baltimore in the 60s. And I still really like the music, and it's difficult for me to circle that square.

[40:04] Tommy: Yeah. Well, I think, I think, I mean, not to start another episode about Hairspray right now, but I think, um, compared, in a comparison to Dear Evan Hansen, I think Hairspray does tell a different story. But it still tells a problematic white saviour story that is the wrong kind of history that leaves the audience with incorrect opinions.

[40:29] Jimi: Absolutely. But I'm thinking, I'm thinking, actually, what I'm thinking of here is the original John Waters film.

[40:33] Tommy: Sure. Okay.

[40:34] Jimi: And how that was for an audience that wouldn't get these stories.

[40:41] Tommy: Right. Right. Whereas that opportunity was presented.

[40:49] Jimi: Well, actually, maybe, I mean, maybe, maybe you're giving a justification for Dear Evan Hansen is like, even bad representation is representation.

[40:53] Tommy: Is representation. Because, hey, we've already spoken about this for about 40 minutes. You know, I mean, and we're two people who have first-hand experience of this kind of thing.

[41:03] Jimi: Exactly. So, and I think, I think that is it, is like, you know, we're not going to spend an hour and a half just shitting all over this show because that isn't fun. And that's not what we're really about, Tommy, is it?

[41:14] Tommy: Really about? Sunset Boulevard.

[41:19] Jimi: Oh, I thought it was Company.

[41:20] Tommy: Um, but, uh, the, there are nuggets of gold within this and hopefully we will, we will dredge them all out because, um, I think we're getting quite good at being a bit more objective.

[41:32] Jimi: I hope so. I don't know. Or at least between the two of us. I think it's a goal we're setting for ourselves.

[41:37] Tommy: Absolutely. And it's an important goal.

[41:42] Jimi: Yeah. And I think in the same way that even if you do really love this show, um, don't throw hate at the people who don't like it.

[41:48] Tommy: I think, I, I, I honestly believe whatever skill we're like outwardly trying to cultivate here is going to become so increasingly important in our post-COVID arts world is, is like having a good, a good set of like civil discourse tools to talk about the problems with a piece of art while still appreciating its good parts and not associate, like being able to draw a line between the art and the creators and the art and the fandom.

[42:09] Jimi: And I still struggle with it. I'm sure I have made some poor comments about it even in the past 20 minutes, um, that wouldn't be good examples of this.

[42:24] Tommy: Um, but it's going to be an important goal as we talk about, you know, our recycling, uh, art form that likes performing things from the past and creating new things and, you know, exactly.

[42:37] Jimi: But I think actually, I think another key point of that as well is listening to people who have different opinions to you.

[42:42] Tommy: And I think from the frogs, I think we're very good at that.

[42:50] Jimi: Yeah. And I want to acknowledge it's hard to do.

[42:55] Tommy: It is hard. It's so hard to do.

[42:57] Jimi: It is hard to listen and hear opinions that differ from yours.

[43:00] Tommy: Yeah. Full stop, let alone process.

[43:02] Jimi: Right. Yep. It's hard just to come in the, in the lugs.

[43:08] Tommy: Yep.

[43:09] Jimi: Do you have that lugs?

[43:10] Tommy: No, that's a new one for me.

[43:12] Jimi: Ears?

[43:13] Tommy: Ears. Like, like lug nuts?

[43:14] Jimi: Uh, no, I think just lugs.

[43:16] Tommy: Just lugs. Huh. I wonder what the origin is.

[43:19] Jimi: It's Scottish.

[43:20] Tommy: All right. Should we say some good things?

[43:22] Jimi: Yes. Or try at least.

[43:50] Tommy: I will sing no requiem. I will sing no requiem tonight.

[44:02] Jimi: Oh, this musical is the best. Oh my God. I love it so much.

[44:16] Tommy: Um, no. So I love that. Should we talk about some good things? The first thing you've written here?

[44:25] Jimi: I know it's sloppy.

[44:29] Tommy: I do. Okay. Let's, let's wait before we talk about it. Let's talk about some positive things.

[44:34] Jimi: I love Heidi. I love Evan's mom.

[44:40] Tommy: Yes. Best character in the show. Hands down. Like, yeah. And like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

[44:47] Jimi: And I think in both, uh, performance by OBC, Rachel B. Jones, um, and actually in the way that it's written, I think she's a fantastic female character.

[45:01] Tommy: It starts the show. I mean, like we kind of start with Evan, but really we, and does anybody have a map? We spend the more time with Heidi than anyone else at the beginning of the show.

[45:07] Jimi: Um, and like between Good for You and So Big, So Small, like, Oh, I mean, So Big, So Small, goodness sake, like, and I get to give this show its credit.

[45:22] Tommy: Like we've talked about this before. We had a long discussion about it in Mamma Mia. I love mom songs. And that is a fantastic mother-child song, particularly from the extremely musically theater underrepresented single mother.

[45:36] Jimi: Yes. Hello. Um, fantastic piece.

[45:43] Tommy: Yeah, no, her. And like, even the whole, like some of the straight scenes, the scene she has with the Murphys, um, like gut-wrenching, um, you know, some of them like, and, and is, uh, in some justifications, the climax of the show, um, like I want more of that, but yeah, absolutely.

[46:05] Jimi: But also I wonder if that's the problem, right? If I got more of it, maybe I'd be sick of it.

[46:09] Tommy: Right. Or maybe like it just wouldn't make sense because it's not the point, right. You know what I mean?

[46:13] Jimi: It's not the point.

[46:14] Tommy: Um, but I think, yeah, she, she is really written extremely well.

[46:20] Jimi: Um, and also like from all angles of like the idea of like not understanding her son.

[46:28] Tommy: Yeah.

[46:29] Jimi: A because he's not letting her understand him.

[46:31] Tommy: Um, and B because he's tricky to understand.

[46:35] Jimi: I think, I think the, the like musical theater writing lesson to take from her character being so successful is like, characters should have reasons to be the way they are and should respond to their environment in believable ways, which like seems like a simple piece of advice, but you can count seven people in the show who don't do that.

[46:50] Tommy: Um, and it's why she shines so brightly as such a great character.

[46:56] Jimi: She is one of the only ones who really goes like, what the hell is going on?

[46:59] Tommy: Right. Like it's like, this is nonsense.

[47:01] Jimi: Right. Like you get a little from a lot of later.

[47:07] Tommy: Um, yeah, but she's painted as such a caricature at the beginning.

[47:13] Jimi: Well, exactly that. Yeah. Which is frustrating. Zero depth there.

[47:20] Tommy: Um, but no, I completely am with you. It's Heidi's really good.

[47:28] Jimi: Um, and what I will say, um, for, for the most part, right. Um, the direction, uh, from Michael Greif given to, uh, Evan is really good.

[47:39] Tommy: Like, so notice what I'm really trying to get around.

[47:41] Jimi: Like from, from the material he was given.

[47:43] Tommy: Yes. He has created.

[47:47] Jimi: Yes. And a fascinating character.

[47:49] Tommy: I will say for the show's comparison to Next to Normal, this show is more entertaining to watch than Next to Normal and lives with a lot of very similar, uh, conceits, right. Just to keep a couple people relatively empty stage.

[48:02] Jimi: We're not dropping a chandelier. We're not doing like big, big things here, but this, this show is like, does a lot of nice subtle things that lets you follow a lot of really abstract thought.

[48:14] Tommy: Um, like even, even as much as we, you know, spent 40 minutes shitting on it.

[48:18] Jimi: Um, but the way that the specter of Connor Murphy is used throughout the thing is very effectively and simply done.

[48:24] Tommy: And like, you know, having a ghost character, I think this is an underappreciated, uh, theatrical device.

[48:28] Jimi: Like we know he's dead. We know he's coming back in some capacity.

[48:35] Tommy: How the fact that so simply we realize that the things that Connor Murphy is saying in the Dear Evan Hansen song are coming out of either Jared or Evan's mouth.

[48:41] Jimi: And that our brain can bounce back and forth between knowing who is acting as the puppeteer for him in that moment.

[48:49] Tommy: Like so seamlessly that you don't even notice it as a conceit.

[48:52] Jimi: Um, like a lot of the construction of this very, very clever.

[48:56] Tommy: Mm. I think, yeah, I do agree with you.

[48:58] Jimi: I don't want to start that.

[48:59] Tommy: I know it's hard because I don't like the content of it, but I like how it works.

[49:05] Jimi: But like, so obviously there's a really strong comparison that can be made between Connor and Gabe from Next to Normal.

[49:10] Tommy: Um, because they're the same, but where I think Gabe works substantially more than Connor is that Gabe has never existed as a 16-year-old. He was a baby, right?

[49:20] Jimi: Yeah.

[49:21] Tommy: That we never saw. Whereas we saw the real-life human Connor, and then we see this caricature, right?

[49:26] Jimi: Like create a character.

[49:27] Tommy: And then this kind of representation of the dark side of it.

[49:30] Jimi: We really see like three or four Connors throughout the whole thing.

[49:34] Tommy: Yeah.

[49:35] Jimi: Um, and I think that could be more like pick a lane.

[49:39] Tommy: Right. Just use them as one thing.

[49:41] Jimi: Yeah.

[49:42] Tommy: Um, because otherwise there's no character there, you know?

[49:44] Jimi: Because whereas like Gabe is very much a character because he is playing, um, he is, he is playing Diane's brain basically.

[49:50] Tommy: Um, and the conversations that she's having with herself.

[49:53] Jimi: I think second to improving the ending scene, then like my next revision note would be work on Connor.

[49:59] Tommy: Um, like we need to see more of him at the beginning and more, more dimensionality.

[50:05] Jimi: He's a clever kid. Like we get that the whole, like, um, I don't want you going to school high Connor. Great. Then I won't go.

[50:11] Tommy: Like, that's a clever, it's, it's played as a joke, but he's a smart, he's a smart kid. He's not stupid.

[50:17] Jimi: Um, and, and this is a plot hole that people don't notice enough. He goes to school, like it's never mentioned, but like the whole, our whole introduction is Connor saying like, I don't want to go to school. Guess what happens? He goes to school.

[51:01] Tommy: The plot doesn't happen unless Connor goes to school and has that interaction with Evan.

[51:05] Jimi: And like, that's a moment to capitalize on, right? He just is trying to be shitty to his mom.

[51:09] Tommy: He's not ditching school.

[51:10] Jimi: Yeah.

[51:11] Tommy: Um, and so like, that's another thing, you know, give us a little more hint of his relationship with his sister.

[51:16] Jimi: Other than just like, I saw my brother push you. He's a psycho.

[51:20] Tommy: Um, you know, like give us a little more there.

[51:23] Jimi: So then we have something to relate to when we start seeing figment Connor.

[51:27] Tommy: Yeah.

[51:28] Jimi: And then we can compare it to, is it real Connor or Evan's imagining of Connor? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[51:34] Tommy: Absolutely.

[51:35] Jimi: Um, and we'll talk a bit about the book later.

[51:37] Tommy: The book, the book and, and the book, the novel, the book, book, the Novel God reading.

[51:43] Jimi: Um, yes, but we will talk about that later.

[51:46] Tommy: Um, I think let's talk about the song.

[51:48] Jimi: Sure.

[51:49] Tommy: Um, uh, I, can we talk about Waving Through the Window? Cause this time through, I, I, I, what is your interpretation of this song? Cause it is like a deeply seeped in metaphor song, right?

[52:02] Jimi: Yeah. So it's tricky because before I'd even heard the song I was told it was about, oh, it's actually about being on your phone and the black screen.

[52:08] Tommy: So that's, that's the interesting thing. It wasn't until this time through literally yesterday when he said tap, tap, tap it on the glass. And I was like, Oh yeah.

[52:16] Jimi: Oh, a phone.

[52:17] Tommy: Oh Jesus.

[52:18] Jimi: Like I had envisioned the metaphor of like, he's trapped inside himself and can't communicate out of this metaphorical glass pane that he sees in front of him.

[52:24] Tommy: Right.

[52:25] Jimi: And it wasn't, which is also legit. And it wasn't until 24 hours ago I was like, Oh, but wait, they're also, we're also talking about like, I wave it like literally we're waving at each other through a window.

[52:32] Tommy: Right.

[52:33] Jimi: Um, that metaphor, it did not strike me until 24 hours ago.

[52:37] Tommy: Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

[52:38] Jimi: Well, that's like, I was told that that's what it was about before I'd even heard.

[53:08] ⚠ About 13 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[1:06:25] Jimi: It's a Better Project. Absolutely. Dan Savage adapted a lot of those stories into a book, and very explicitly was like, listen, these stories don't read well in a book. Like, this is not the way that these things should exist. But, a book can go in a school library, where a kid can find it, and like, this is a way into this for the right kind of kid. And I think the Dear Evan Hansen novelization is the right way into this for the right kind of person. Who, you know, if they're reading a book, that's less of a, like, it's just an easier way in. So I'm all about it from that direction.

[1:07:04] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely. And it's, so they do interesting things with it. It isn't the script on the stage, you know, I mean, it's not like a like for like.

[1:07:15] Jimi: It's not the libretto, it's not, yeah.

[1:07:17] Tommy: There are new plot points, there are new characters, there are new narrators, like, because it is all first person, first person present as well, which I love.

[1:07:31] Jimi: That's so rare. First person present from Evan's perspective, except for, and this is where I think I like it, except for the occasional dip in from Connor.

[1:07:49] Tommy: Yes. And so, spoilers in the next 30 seconds if you're planning on reading the book.

[1:07:55] Jimi: Yes.

[1:07:55] Tommy: They make Connor gay.

[1:07:58] Jimi: Yes.

[1:07:59] Tommy: Canonically.

[1:08:00] Jimi: Yes, absolutely. And not only that, they make Connor a much less broad strokes, angry boy.

[1:08:15] Tommy: He is a lot more sympathetic in the book. And you find out about a relationship that he had, and actually a lot of his pain and his anger has come from this rejection, from a guy. So, I have two thoughts about this. Number one, I like the fact that we get more Connor.

[1:08:40] Jimi: Right.

[1:08:41] Tommy: Because that makes it, I said it earlier, the two are lampshaded together as these people who are going through similar, but very different experiences.

[1:08:52] Jimi: Exactly.

[1:08:53] Tommy: And I like that they are the two, the only two narrators of the book. I like that.

[1:09:04] Jimi: That there is a queer character in this story.

[1:09:07] Tommy: Is a nice thing.

[1:09:08] Jimi: That's a nice, it's a nice thing.

[1:09:12] Tommy: Would have been lovely if it was on the stage, but hey, it's fine.

[1:09:15] Jimi: Right. Well, yeah.

[1:09:16] Tommy: It's fine. It's 2016.

[1:09:18] Jimi: Yeah.

[1:09:19] Tommy: You know, far too early for that kind of thinking. And then the other, the kind of final point is, it's not enough of a tip of the cap. Well, it is a tip of the cap.

[1:09:41] Jimi: Right.

[1:09:42] Tommy: To teenage LGBT suicide.

[1:09:47] Jimi: Sure.

[1:09:48] Tommy: Which is an epidemic.

[1:09:51] Jimi: Absolutely. And like, it's worth acknowledging. I mean, the way I described it to my boyfriend earlier is they Dumbledore'd him. Like, I, you know, I don't disagree. Yes, and.

[1:10:08] Tommy: Yes. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[1:10:09] Jimi: We're like diving straight into the bury your gays trope. And like, of course the trauma he has to have is that he's gay.

[1:10:19] Tommy: Which is such a terrible, terrible stereotype and trope of the world. Like, of course, the one gay character has to be the one who dies. Like.

[1:10:27] Jimi: I know.

[1:10:29] Tommy: But it's not, it's not doing it. And like, you know, they don't.

[1:10:34] Jimi: Well, okay. I've not read the book. Disclaimer. That is a very important. And that is an important disclaimer. I am speaking from a position of ignorance. So, but as far as I'm aware, they do not start the Connor project as awareness of gay teen suicide.

[1:10:54] Tommy: Queer suicide or something. It is just an awareness of suicide. Yeah.

[1:10:58] Jimi: Yes, exactly. And that is where I'm like, you could have turned that call differently. Also, the way he starts the Connor project is different in the book. He's watching a documentary and where they basically do that and he gets inspired to do it by that. Which I just thought interesting. Interesting. Yeah. So yeah. Good and bad. Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. It is fascinating.

[1:11:32] Tommy: I mean, I don't know if this is the right transition, but it does speak to a different way that contemporary musical theater fans are engaging with the media.

[1:11:43] Jimi: I could see, it hasn't happened, but I could see a novelization of Newsies or Spring Awakening. I could see a big Broadway machine doing this or something like that. No one would ever consider or has ever thought about novelizing Hello, Dolly.

[1:12:03] Tommy: Right. Or like maybe, perhaps I will take that back. There are some novelizations of West Side Story.

[1:12:09] Jimi: How are there? It's called Romeo and Juliet. I have a vague memory of a comparative reading and it was both together. And the left-hand page was West Side Story and the right-hand page was Romeo and Juliet. And that was the point. And perhaps that's an invented memory. But this kind of young adult novelization adaptation wouldn't have happened 15 years ago, wouldn't have happened 20 years ago. And I think is a, you know, a sign of the times and in a really fascinating way.

[1:12:41] Tommy: Yeah. I hope it's not pandering.

[1:12:44] Jimi: And I worry that it is, you know.

[1:12:47] Tommy: I know. But I really, I'm an optimist, Tom.

[1:12:50] Jimi: And I've never called you Tom in my life.

[1:12:52] Tommy: I know that's a fun one.

[1:12:53] Jimi: I won't be doing that again. I hated that. I'm an optimist, T. And I really hope that they're not. Because it's, it doesn't feel right. Okay. To bring back the Be More Chill comparison, right? It doesn't feel shoehorned in like George Salazar's apparent bisexuality that's never discussed in the show. But it's cool. We'll talk about it on Tumblr.

[1:13:18] Tommy: You know, I mean, it doesn't feel, it feels like actually that could make a lot of sense.

[1:13:23] Jimi: Right. Yeah. Like they made some important story choices that make sense that are explained that, you know.

[1:13:29] Tommy: Right.

[1:13:29] Jimi: Which they wouldn't have needed to do if the goal was just like, if we put Dear Evan Hansen on the front of a package of paper, people will give us $7 for it.

[1:13:37] Tommy: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So that's my hope.

[1:13:42] Jimi: I like that. It must be fun being an optimist.

[1:13:46] Tommy: Oh, I was going to make a cockeyed optimist joke, but it didn't work.

[1:13:50] Jimi: I was like, oh, that's what they call me. And I used to be cockeyed! Hey!

[1:13:54] Tommy: Oh my God. That's a missed opportunity. I was a cockeyed optimist.

[1:14:02] Jimi: I'll get rating the YouTube parody song now. Do people still do YouTube parody songs?

[1:14:07] Tommy: Oh yeah, Randy Rainbow. Of course they do.

[1:14:09] Jimi: Never, never mention his name again on this podcast. How dare you?

[1:14:15] Tommy: I'll bleep it out. Please. No, I've never, that of all the like hot takes I have on Twitter, the ones that receive the most imminent, immediate backlash are when I put down Randy Rainbow.

[1:14:28] Jimi: He's a... Because you say a lot of things.

[1:14:30] Tommy: I know I do. He's a dick.

[1:14:34] Jimi: He's a racist dick. He's an unapologetic racist dick.

[1:14:39] Tommy: There's that hot take, ladies and gents.

[1:14:42] Jimi: Um, should we talk about...

[1:14:44] Tommy: Yeah, here we go!

[1:14:44] ♪ Musical number: "Goodbye" — performed by the Original Broadway Cast of Dear Evan Hansen ♪

[1:15:57] Jimi: I read an academic paper about the fandom of Dear Evan Hansen. I mean, there's a lot.

[1:16:04] Tommy: Like, people have studied this.

[1:16:05] Jimi: It's really cool.

[1:16:06] Tommy: Yeah.

[1:16:07] Jimi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's, so this is, I mean, we talk about this actually a fair amount, but we do like reading academic papers on musical theatre shows, and there's really not enough of them.

[1:16:17] Tommy: No, this one, if we remember to put this one in the notes, tap, tap, tap it on the glass, Generation Z social media and Dear Evan Hansen by Bethany Dougherty, published 2020.

[1:16:27] Jimi: Right. I mean, it's great. And all I just want to do is implore all of our academic listeners out there to get some of this shit published, because there's some good stuff.

[1:16:39] Tommy: Like, take the seeds, take the shitty seeds of ideas that we've brought in this podcast and turn them into actual good material.

[1:16:44] Jimi: Turn them into papers, as many have done before you, and shout outs to everyone who's ever asked us to be cited in an academic paper.

[1:16:50] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. We love you.

[1:16:52] Jimi: But I do agree, it's so important because this, you know, I saw, it was interesting, this academic paper actually cited a different one that I was interested in reading. I'm not going to be able to find the citation.

[1:17:06] Tommy: Oh, here it is.

[1:17:07] Jimi: Carlson 2003, who wrote a paper or wrote an article in the Theatre Journal, but said, Theatre as an art that lives by and survives largely in memory. And that was a really interesting thought that I hadn't really thought about before. But that, like, our primary interface with theatre as an art form is not while it's happening, but is before it, after it, and around it.

[1:17:37] Tommy: And that the concept of a show exists mostly in how people talk about it and how they remember it, and not in how it actually happened.

[1:17:47] Jimi: And that was a really interesting distinction that I'd never really been able to, like, put such a fine point on. But so then this article goes on to talk about how, like, Dear Evan Hansen, I think, is, in marketing and fandom and kind of its acceptance, the first fully formed existence of a particular flavor of musical that we've been dancing around the idea of for maybe 20 years.

[1:18:16] Tommy: Like, it is the obvious end result of the Broadway.com generation and the Tumblr fandoms, and, like, finally people who live in publicity offices have started to realize that there's something to leverage here.

[1:18:33] Jimi: And the result is the marketing in the world around Dear Evan Hansen.

[1:18:38] Tommy: Yeah. And you're right, it's 20 years exactly, because it began with Reign.

[1:18:43] Jimi: Right.

[1:18:44] Tommy: I think. I would...

[1:18:46] Jimi: Thereabouts. I mean, every backstage vlog that has ever existed, every, like, you know, the Lightning Thief Twitter account, all of these things lead up to finally a place that's like, hey, one of the main points of this article is, like, you know, death to critics. This is how people interface with shows now, right?

[1:19:10] Jimi: Yes.

[1:19:11] Tommy: And, of course, it would be Dear Evan Hansen, a show predicated on virality and internet association and, you know, retweet this video. And, like, of course, like, it took a show about the thing to do the thing in real life, which is also a little dirty feeling in the back, which is interesting. Because, like, the internet's not portrayed as the good guy in this show. And it is interesting that the marketing office was like, ah, the internet, that's what will sell our show.

[1:19:42] Jimi: It's like selling your show, and then when you get to the theatre, calling your audience villains in a way that I don't think anyone quite put together.

[1:19:49] Tommy: Yeah, it didn't work for anyone.

[1:19:51] Jimi: Right, exactly. It's like that in the 21st century.

[1:19:55] Tommy: Yeah, it is an important piece in regards to that, because I think, obviously, we can draw a lot of parallels with Hamilton, because they're contemporaries of each other.

[1:20:06] Jimi: But I think Hamilton is a different kettle of fish, because it's doing very different things.

[1:20:13] Tommy: Dear Evan Hansen doesn't feel like it's aimed at grown-ups.

[1:20:21] Jimi: Yeah, they have different target audiences.

[1:20:28] Tommy: Right, in the same way that Be More Chill and Lightning Thief are not aimed at grown-ups.

[1:20:36] Jimi: Exactly. And actually, this is a really good point. One of the reasons why we don't like it is maybe because we're grown-ups.

[1:20:39] Tommy: Yeah, right.

[1:20:41] Jimi: Do you know what I mean? And it's not for us.

[1:20:43] Tommy: Right.

[1:20:49] Jimi: And in which case, y'all day. Go for it.

[1:20:51] Tommy: Exactly. Throw our hands up. Not my jam. We've done that before, right? I don't get this, because it's not for me.

[1:20:57] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. It's just like, we're not teenagers in high school. We don't know what it's like. You have a very good perspective, but you can only walk so far in the shoes of these kids. Do you know what I mean?

[1:21:05] Tommy: And yeah, I think there's definitely an element of that. And there's no denying that this show has had just an explosive, and very, like, in a different way to Be More Chill.

[1:21:14] Jimi: And in fact, in a very different way to Be More Chill, Heather's Lightning Thief. Like, all of our recent bursts.

[1:21:22] Tommy: Do you know what has happened?

[1:21:31] Jimi: Let me throw this at you. Dear Evan Hansen prototyped the new Broadway marketing machine, and was able to do so because it was a show that catered itself to that, right?

[1:21:38] Tommy: And then Beetlejuice said, hold my beer, and was a show that need not necessarily be about that.

[1:21:43] Jimi: But found a way into that same marketing world and did it exactly right, without the same hooks that come from the content. And were it not for the pandemic, I think this would have been the future for the next 10 years.

[1:22:04] Tommy: Yeah, absolutely.

[1:22:08] Jimi: A steady stream of this sort of thing.

[1:22:12] Tommy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it would be grating.

[1:22:16] Jimi: It really would. I think we're gonna get it anyway.

[1:22:20] Tommy: And we're gonna see it shoehorned into musicals that don't deserve it, right?

[1:22:23] Jimi: Right. And I mean, current root-in controversies aside, how long before the Music Man TikTok starts, right?

[1:22:31] Tommy: Right. You know, let's do the Rock Island Challenge.

[1:22:34] Jimi: Yeah, exactly. You know that Sam Foster and Hugh Jackman are gonna be backstage on TikTok.

[1:22:41] Tommy: Yeah, because they were told to be, right? And because this thing's gonna need an even bigger marketing boost than they thought, if it survives even the next couple months.

[1:22:49] Jimi: If it survives, that's exactly it. Yeah, you're totally right. I just think, yeah, it's quite impressive. Because I've shot down TikTok marketing a lot in the past on this show. But weirdly, there's something about Dear Evan Hansen's fandom that doesn't make me feel as ill. I don't know what that is.

[1:23:16] Tommy: I think this is a bit of a side tangent, but it does relate. Because we're people who live on the internet, we have this conversation off-pod all the time about how people don't do a really good job of separating the platform from the fans. TikTok is a good place right now to market because of the people who are on it. But the people who are on it, like they do all the time, are gonna jump to another platform, you know, circa two, five years. And then you gotta follow them and learn what's up with that new platform. And it might be something quite like TikTok or something entirely different. And you have to adapt with that. And you will not be able to predict it. And it's not about, you gotta have your Instagram and your Facebook and your Twitter and your LinkedIn presence and your paper presence and your poster presence and your television ad presence and your talk show presence, right? It's not about saturating the field. It's about chasing that golden goose. And that's why Beetlejuice was able to do it, right?

[1:24:36] Jimi: Whereas the old school marketing will be like, there are gonna be huge billboards about the music man and Sutton Foster's going on her Scott Rudin isn't shit tour right now. But she's gonna do it on Dateline or Good Morning America or something. She's not gonna do it on TikTok.

[1:24:57] Tommy: It's a really good example, the current Rudin controversy and how the old school stars have responded to it. Like, too late and too little, Hugh Jackman's, all caps, screenshotted Word document response distributed through his agent to be posted as an image macro on Twitter, right? Does not have the same impact as two camera person in Instagram stories telling their story of abuse.

[1:25:25] Jimi: And like, exactly. The marketing folk, the agents of the world aren't paying enough attention to the subtleties of platform and messaging. And we owe some of that differentiation to how Dear Evan Hansen was kind of able to ride on, find that zeitgeist kite and take off with it.

[1:25:43] Tommy: Yeah. Oh my God. Weird coincidence. Ben Platt's Side by Side by Susan Blackwell about Dear Evan Hansen was them flying kites.

[1:26:00] Jimi: It's all a master plan. My brain works in mysterious ways.

[1:26:04] Tommy: That was beautiful. Thank you. It's also a really good ep.

[1:26:08] Jimi: Um, right. I think to round off, like it's such, would you agree that this is an important piece of theater?

[1:26:21] Tommy: I would, it's not going to ever be revived once it closes.

[1:26:27] Jimi: Yeah, I'd be very, well, I feel that way about a lot of contemporary stuff, but yes, I agree.

[1:26:32] Tommy: Um, but I think it's like very significant. I've not encountered a show that's this divisive, um, in a very, very long time.

[1:26:40] Jimi: Yeah. I mean, for as much as we talked, you know, on end at the beginning about it, like it did make me cry. Like it was, you know, yes, it's doing things that is help is manipulating my emotions, which all theater does, you know, for good or for bad. That's the point of art.

[1:27:00] Tommy: Right. Um, but it also, in the way that next to normal tried and did so in a less successful and lauded way has changed what is our art form.

[1:27:06] Jimi: Yeah. And like, I do not doubt for a single second that a lot more people have an awareness about the struggles of mental health now because of Dear Evan Hansen.

[1:27:25] Tommy: As much as I, you know, outright shat on the show at the beginning.

[1:27:33] Jimi: Yeah. If, and I'm sure it has, you know, some mom taking her kid to come see a show on Broadway, right, was able to leave the theater once and mom was able to be like, Hey, you okay? And have an honest conversation about something. That is a thing I am pleased is in the world in a really big way.

[1:27:49] Tommy: Um, absolutely. So I, I agree that, you know, spurring the conversation sometimes is worth it, even if it's, even if it's messy.

[1:28:00] Jimi: Totally. So that's it. Let's have a conversation about it. Dear Evan Hansen, Tommy's favorite music.

[1:28:19] Tommy: We could be for forever.

[1:28:50] Jimi: Well, Tommy, not Tom. That was Dear Evan Hansen.

[1:28:59] Tommy: Dear Jimmy, this is going to be a great episode and here's why.

[1:29:03] Jimi: Oh, that's cute. We should have started with that. I just thought about it right now. It's a shame. I didn't think about it at the beginning. I won't make you edit it. Everyone just pretend I said that at the beginning and look at how clever I am.

[1:29:17] Tommy: Yeah, exactly. Just your memory.

[1:29:19] Jimi: Um, Hey Tommy, do you have a quiz question?

[1:29:24] Tommy: I don't Jimmy, because we're old men now. We just, we just turned 99. Can you believe it at all?

[1:29:29] Jimi: I actually can't because it should be like 300 seconds.

[1:29:38] Tommy: But no, I'm proud of us.

[1:29:40] Jimi: And now is not the time to get too sentimental because we should do that on our hundredth episode.

[1:29:46] Tommy: I'll hold back the tears.

[1:29:48] Jimi: When is it?

[1:29:48] Tommy: It's next Saturday, May 1st. Thank you for sticking with us through every schedule.

[1:29:55] Jimi: Yes. So tune in. It'll be 2pm Pacific, 5pm Eastern, 10pm GMT. You'll be able to find the link. We're going to stream it in a bunch of different places, but hit up Twitter or my YouTube channel or whatever, and you'll find it.

[1:30:07] Tommy: You're not going to miss it.

[1:30:08] Jimi: But we need your help. We want to answer your questions. Thank you to those of you who have sent in questions so far or tweet at us your favorite moments from past episodes. We're thinking we might go and explore some of those and laugh at our bad takes from five years ago.

[1:30:26] Tommy: Yes. Oh, dear.

[1:30:27] Jimi: But whether you're tweeting us your questions or your favorite moments from past episodes, use the hashtag 100 happy hours. That's the number 100 and then happy hours.

[1:30:37] Tommy: And if you do, we're going to give away some prizes. So, you know, make sure you use that hashtag, yo.

[1:30:43] Jimi: Yes, indeed. But hey, if you would like to get in touch with us about anything else, but I can't think of why you would.

[1:30:50] Tommy: My expired car warranty. The FBI is searching for me. Do you not get these spam calls? I get these spam calls.

[1:30:57] Jimi: Oh, no. I thought you were admitting something. I was like, Tommy, you should be careful about that shit.

[1:31:03] Tommy: Oh, no. My car warranty was expired before I bought the car, but that's fine.

[1:31:06] Jimi: Great.

[1:31:08] Tommy: Well, if you want to talk about that, please feel free. Our show, Twitter and Instagram is at Jim and Tomic. That is J-I-M-A-N-D-T-O-M-I-C.

[1:31:19] Jimi: Or you can drop us an email on our website, jimandtomic.com. And there you can also find our merch. And we've got a Discord. If you head over to the show notes right now, there's a link that'll let you hop onto the Discord channel. Hopefully, there's some great discussions about mental health and neurodiversity happening there now. It's a time-limited URL. So go find it right now. And if you miss out, don't worry, there will be more in the future.

[1:31:42] Tommy: Exactly. And hey, if you would like to financially support the show, that would be extremely appreciated. You can check out our Patreon over on our website. We have our video podcast over there for our highball $5, $4.99 or $4.50. I think it is sterling for some weird reason.

[1:32:02] Jimi: Patreon. And that is our video podcast. We talk about the new Spelling Bee movie announcement, which is very exciting.

[1:32:09] Tommy: And our requisite video game and Marvel chat as well. But most of all, it helps us. The number one thing you can do is just tell your folks about our podcast. People find us most through word of mouth, and it's your mouths and our words. What?

[1:32:20] Jimi: Your mouth, our words.

[1:32:26] Tommy: I don't like how that sounds.

[1:32:28] Jimi: It's awful. That will not be on a t-shirt.

[1:32:30] Tommy: Anyway, that's all for today, everyone. Thank you for listening, and we will see you in the 100.

[1:32:39] Jimi: Bum, bum, bum.

[1:32:41] Tommy: Cheers.

[1:32:55] Jimi: Would a fussy neck do it?