This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Rory O'Malley: This is episode number 59 of Living the Dream with Rory O'Malley.

[0:05] Rory O'Malley: Audition, side job, swimming upstream.

[0:08] Rory O'Malley: Believe it or not, you're living the dream.

[0:11] Rory O'Malley: Hello, dreamers, Rory O'Malley here, your host of Living the Dream. Thank you so much for downloading.

[0:16] Rory O'Malley: Do me a favor. Would you write a review for us? Rate us on iTunes, tell your friends. We want to keep having these wonderful conversations, and it means so much when you spread the word and let people know that we're talking about living the dream here, talking about what it takes to stay grounded and happy in show business.

[0:38] Rory O'Malley: Not an easy thing to do. Um, my guest today, Susan Blackwell, is someone who I've always looked to be a guide. She's had such success in our industry, but she continues to stay grounded, happy, and just full of joy.

[0:58] Rory O'Malley: Just absolutely full of joy, and reflects that off to everyone around her. She's best known for the Tony nominated hit title of show that she worked on and created with Jeff Bowen, Hunter Bell, Heidi Blick, and Staff.

[1:16] Rory O'Malley: And that show was so important to me and so many people in the theater community when it came on the scene. It is a very meta, very uh insider of Broadway musical, but it really was about being an artist.

[1:34] Rory O'Malley: And she had a song in it called Die Vampire Die that was about tackling the demons in your head that tell you you're not good enough to be an artist, a performer, a creator. And we really got into that in this conversation.

[1:47] Rory O'Malley: I wanted to talk with her very specifically about it for a long time, and I'm so glad that she actually does workshops now about this very thing and about tapping into your creative side and writing your story.

[2:04] Rory O'Malley: You can look on her website, SusanBlackwell.com, and find out the dates of when she's doing her next workshop. She's fantastic, a wonderful human being. And uh I love everything she has to say.

[2:19] Rory O'Malley: This is my conversation with Susan Blackwell.

[2:23] Rory O'Malley: Um hi, Susan.

[2:25] Susan Blackwell: Rory Jennifer O'Malley.

[2:29] Susan Blackwell: I'm so happy, so happy and honored to be having this conversation with you.

[2:34] Rory O'Malley: I'm going to officially change my middle name to Jennifer instead of James.

[2:42] Susan Blackwell: Definitely starts.

[2:43] Rory O'Malley: I want J-E-N.

[2:45] Susan Blackwell: No, G-E-N-I-F-F-E-R.

[2:48] Rory O'Malley: Oh, that's great.

[2:49] Susan Blackwell: Just super confusing for everybody.

[2:51] Rory O'Malley: Super confusing.

[2:52] Susan Blackwell: That's what I that's my goal.

[2:54] Rory O'Malley: Um, thank you so much for being on the podcast, Living the Dream.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: My pleasure.

[2:59] Susan Blackwell: Hello, listeners.

[3:01] Rory O'Malley: Hello. I um got an email from you and I was so excited about it because it's for your workshop that's coming up, right?

[3:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes, there's a workshop coming, a creativity workshop that I'm going to be teaching on July 28th, 2018.

[3:20] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes when I listen to podcasts and I'm catching up from like the archives, I'm like when was that concert again?

[3:26] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[3:27] Susan Blackwell: Uh, but it's it's it's yeah, July 28th, 2018 in New York City.

[3:30] Rory O'Malley: Yes. And I um I was so excited about that because you were someone who I reached out to when I wanted to start writing, and I did uh my my my one man show, my cabaret show pub crawl.

[3:46] Rory O'Malley: I talked to you. You're the first person that I reached out to because I knew—

[3:48] Susan Blackwell: Yes, I did.

[3:52] Rory O'Malley: I wasn't gonna yeah.

[3:53] Rory O'Malley: I that's why I think of you often as the person who helped me find a voice.

[4:01] Susan Blackwell: Oh what a what a beautiful thing to hear somebody say the truth.

[4:08] Rory O'Malley: It's the truth. I remember you said uh that your email meant so much to me because it and uh you said bring a spiral notebook and let's get to let's get writing.

[4:19] Rory O'Malley: And that's what you did with me. You invited me over to your home.

[4:23] Susan Blackwell: You came and you sat in my apartment.

[4:25] Rory O'Malley: Yes, yes.

[4:26] Susan Blackwell: And I and I ran you through some creativity.

[4:30] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[4:30] Susan Blackwell: And it was wonderful, Susan.

[4:34] Rory O'Malley: So I cannot endorse your workshop enough to my listeners and to everyone who's wanted to write and create and tell their story or tell any story that you are such a wonderful uh I don't know, conduit.

[4:54] Susan Blackwell: You're a person who is able to pull something.

[4:56] Rory O'Malley: Yes, yes, sure, but I love it. I'm so knocked out. That's so so kind of you to say.

[5:03] Susan Blackwell: Um yeah, so if people already like cut to the J's. The I think that you can get tickets by going to it's I'm co-hosting this with the New York Musical Festival, which is up is a foot currently, and it's www.nymf.org.

[5:18] Susan Blackwell: And you should be able to find it under special events. It's called the Die Vampire Die Creativity Workshop with Susan Blackwell on July 29th.

[5:25] Susan Blackwell: But it is a lot of the things that you and I did one on one-on-one are things that I think people sometimes I know, I actually know firsthand because I think for a long time, I believed that the privilege of creating things was really that was a privilege that was reserved for people that were other than me, people that were more talented, people that were more well-educated, that came from more privilege, or came from like a hard like more hard knocks, like who really had a story to tell.

[6:04] Susan Blackwell: That I thought it was that it was for people that were more beautiful than me, people who grew up in major cities, people who were more cultured than me. I just believed not from most people from Ohio.

[6:15] Susan Blackwell: Not from like a dirty girl from Ohio. And you know, sort of like a like a little trashy girl from aisle. And then um as I aged and moved through the world more and started making my own stuff, um, I realized, oh, it really is just if you have the creative impulse, you you get to do whatever you want.

[6:42] Susan Blackwell: That it is not the privilege of like the few. It is it is anyone's privilege if they choose to sort of seize it.

[6:49] Susan Blackwell: Um, I remember this just reminds me of this thing when we made my friends and I have made um some creative stuff together. One of them was a show that went to Broadway called Title of Show, and one of the show that went off Broadway called Now Hear This.

[7:02] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[7:02] Susan Blackwell: And when we were doing Title of Show off Broadway at the Vineyard, there's um a person who makes a lot of—Did you ever see that movie My Dinner with Andre?

[7:11] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[7:11] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So Andre from that movie came to see our show and then came backstage afterwards and I met him and I was like, you know, this is a person who's made a lot of really interesting things and things that I've really enjoyed.

[7:24] Susan Blackwell: And I said, I'm so I was still like it was pretty fresh. I've been making things for a few years, but I was like, he was like, I love this so much. And I said, you know, we just made this around Hunter's Hunter Bell's kitchen table.

[7:40] Susan Blackwell: Literally, we made it at Hunter's Kitchen Table. And he goes, Yeah, that's how everything is made.

[7:45] Susan Blackwell: And I was like, Oh my god. Like this very seasoned, sort of well-known creative person was like, Yeah, it's not magic. Like people just sit on, like if you're writing something, like you sit it in, it doesn't have to be like a gold leaf, like a gold-plated king's chair to write something.

[8:06] Susan Blackwell: You can literally sit in your bed, or you can sit on the floor or a scrubbly folding chair and make something that is as majestic as anything else that's been made in the world. And that just blew my mind.

[8:21] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[8:21] Susan Blackwell: Well, I think that you know, for it is true for, you know, maybe it's the Midwest mentality, or we're both from Ohio. I understand that we kind of ask permission to do anything.

[8:32] Susan Blackwell: Like we don't want to intrude on anyone, including their mind space. So I think that you were asking for permission to do things.

[8:43] Rory O'Malley: That's how I was.

[8:44] Susan Blackwell: And I literally think that I remember when I wanted to write my show, I I sat you and Hunter down at dinner and just told you a whole story.

[8:54] Rory O'Malley: You see, you were like, I want to tell you the story. I'll buy you a steak dinner.

[8:57] Susan Blackwell: Yes, but I'm gonna tell you this story. And and yes, and it was an amazing story. And then I think we looked at you and we were like, yeah, you need to make that story.

[9:09] Susan Blackwell: And there's your permission.

[9:10] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[9:10] Susan Blackwell: I'm somebody saying, This is worth breaking the silence for. This is worth people's time.

[9:16] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. This is worth eventually like charging when you when you have it to uh you've done draft passes and you have it your self-expression in a in a at a certain point, it's worth people paying money to come and see and hear this.

[9:31] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[9:32] Susan Blackwell: And I knew that I needed uh people like you and Hunter, who I respected so much as not just actors, but storytellers to give me that permission.

[9:43] Susan Blackwell: And the truth is is that we we should just be permitting ourselves on our own to tell our own stories because all of our stories are valid.

[9:52] Rory O'Malley: I and then you inviting me over to go through some of the exercises that you did to to bring out my story was just sort of oh so we like bring them up to the surface.

[10:03] Susan Blackwell: I started doing based on uh just like this made me think about what you just said in my um in the workshop and the workshop that I'm gonna be doing on the 28th, sometimes somebody will present a very similar conundrum to what you just scribed about needing permission.

[10:20] Susan Blackwell: And I have this great big pad that I carry, it's invisible, it's imaginary, but I have this imaginary big thick invisible pad of um permission slips that I had printed up by an imaginary um printer where I I and I just like write out these imaginary permission slips, and I these are they're invisible, and I just tear one off the top, and I just like, I'm like, here's your permission slip to go ahead and like make that thing, say that thing, create that thing.

[10:51] Susan Blackwell: Um as long as you're not harming yourself or anybody else, like go for it.

[10:57] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[10:58] Susan Blackwell: And and I think sometimes it like we had people, I really do think we had people in our lives. You know who I feel like really was a uh like an early champion for us is Seth Rudetsky.

[11:09] Rory O'Malley: Oh yeah.

[11:09] Susan Blackwell: Seth Rudetsky like would come. I remember Chris Catelli too, like these people that would come to really early iterations of this stuff and be like, here's your imaginary permission slip.

[11:22] Susan Blackwell: Like this is worth breaking the silence for. And having somebody who you are like, they're great. And I look up to I love the things that they say in the world and the things that they're making, and to have them look you in the eye and say, This is worthwhile.

[11:39] Susan Blackwell: Sometimes that's the that's the um invisible permission slip.

[11:44] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, yes, absolutely.

[11:46] Susan Blackwell: I know I needed that.

[11:47] Rory O'Malley: I totally needed that too.

[11:49] Susan Blackwell: I think that it's it's uh once you realize that you need it to to do it for for your story, it becomes so important to give that permission to other people, you know.

[11:59] Susan Blackwell: So I think it's kind of like passing a torch or passing. It feels like to me, it feels like social responsibility to to somebody, and also like Hunter and I studied writing with Linda Barry, who's an amazing, she's a beautiful writer, she's a cartoonist.

[12:16] Susan Blackwell: She's very well known as a cartoonist. Um, she's uh uh she's written The Good Times Are Killing Me, which some of you may have performed before. Um, and a novelist, she wrote a great uh she calls it a novellini called Cruddy.

[12:29] Susan Blackwell: But she um she also she gave us some of those tools that um that her teacher passed on to her and that teacher's teacher passed on to her, and she's I feel like a uh social responsibility to pollinate, like to keep sharing it, sharing it, sharing it, sharing it.

[12:49] Rory O'Malley: Uh and I always picture sort of like holding up uh a lantern for other people and just uh saying like okay, I that was a tricky part for me. Like the there's a twisty root in the past there. So what's just hop over that, watch your step. This is a scary part. So we're gonna go around this like ski, we're going to go in this scary cave and just like holding up a lantern for people and making it a little bit gentler and a little bit easier to get it out.

[13:17] Rory O'Malley: Well, I really that's what I see in you, and that's why I've wanted to have you on this podcast since I started it, because you have always been that for me and for so many other people. And what's so beautiful about I feel like it's your calling as an artist. And I it's not it's it's rare that you can really talk to uh an actor and say that they have another calling on top of just you know performing on stage or TV films. But you do.

[13:45] Susan Blackwell: I actually I actually think it's probably my number one. And it's a it's a weird thing to say that because I'm like uh I do like to work and do do acting work in the business, but I'm like, I think of it, it might be my best thing that I'm the best at.

[14:00] Susan Blackwell: And it's it's it's so clear to me and to so many other people because when I moved to New York, I I showed up uh to New York City, didn't have a place to live, as so many of us do. I was staying with with my buddy Nick Lowe, who uh is an editor at Marvel Comics, but his uh soon-to-be sister-in-law was the company manager at the Vineyard Theater.

[14:27] Susan Blackwell: And um Susan, hit the company manager there said there's Susan Kepik? Yes. Oh, we're using last names. Susan Keppel, oh my god, the beautiful Susan Kepick. The beautiful, wonderful, amazing Susan. Hi, Susan, are you listening? I bet she is. I bet I'll make sure she is. Um she said, uh, there's this great show at our theater right now, and um I can get you to usher if you want to see it.

[14:53] Susan Blackwell: And I was an usher at the Vineyard Theater for a show called Title of Show. And it was life-changing for me, especially during a song, Die Vampire Die Your Song. And you singing that song, to me, there was you know, that that show, we're gonna get into how it came about and stuff while we talk about your story, but that show had so many moments, I think for all theater performers that were so special and intimate.

[15:25] Rory O'Malley: But you singing that song, I fit I felt the entire audience left and you were singing directly to me. Can you talk a little about that song and why it's the title of your workshop?

[15:36] Susan Blackwell: Well, so die vampire die is actually a phrase that came out of it was almost a uh an afterthought from our teacher, Linda Berry, who I was just talking about. And it's a shorthand, the way I understand it, the way she teaches it, it was sort of a shorthand for her. Those uh a vampire is any thought or feeling or person or situation that lurks that you've internalized that sort of lurks in your mind, or sometimes they are external, that um prevent you from being fully creatively self-expressed, from being self-expressed that stops you from being free, essentially.

[16:16] Susan Blackwell: Um, being, and that can also mean like your authentic self if you have repetitive negative thoughts, we call those vampires. So her shorthand for sort of like catching it and squelching it is die vampire die. And I was so she mentioned it for like five seconds when she taught, and I was so taken with this idea, probably because it has it was something that I really struggled with was real profound self-doubt, repetitive negative thinking, that sort of thing.

[16:47] Susan Blackwell: Um believing these sort of stories, what I call stories, but false narratives about um, well, how could a person, a girl who grew up the way that I grew up? How could somebody this scrubbly be a great creator of things? Though that's a vampire, that's a vampire thought. And so the idea is can you identify those things? Can you you know just be like, I see you, I see you, vampire?

[17:18] Susan Blackwell: And whether you like squish it like a bug, or whether you let it sit on your shoulder while you work, can you still get your work done? Can you still be self expressed? Can you still be your whole authentic self? And so that song, that that phrase rather, die vampire die, would become shorthand for myself, Hunter Bell, Jeff Bowen, who were the authors of Title of Show, Heidi Blick and Staff, Larry Pressgrove, and Michael Russ, it would become our shorthand when we brought in fresh writing um to share with each other.

[17:52] Susan Blackwell: We were each other's first listeners, and when we would bring that in, it was usually accompanied by a lot of we would be like, oh, even though we knew and loved each other, we would be like, Oh, okay. Yeah oh boy, okay, I'm gonna read this thing. I think this might be deeply stupid, you guys. And just like just you could feel the heat rising off you the nervousness, and the table would just sort of say, okay, die vampire die, just to sort of cut through the fear and get to the the first draft reading of this thing.

[18:24] Susan Blackwell: And when we were making Title of Show, at some point, um, Title of Show is a musical that chronicles its own creation from the from the inception of the idea to the opening night at whatever theater we happen to be playing. And so because it told our own sort of a autobio fictionography version of our story, and because we played characters that were really based on ourselves, sort of essential versions of ourselves.

[18:49] Susan Blackwell: Um Die Vampire Die was really a part of that creative conversation. And at some point, Hunter Bell and Jeff Bowen asked if I would write a song called Die Vampire Die that sort of captured that that sort of those sentiments that we were playing with every day in our creative lives. So that's what that was born out of.

[19:10] Susan Blackwell: And I sat at Hunter's, literally sat at Hunter's Kitchen Table. Yeah. And I was, I'm a little bit of a school ADD squirrel when it comes to writing. So he just sort of sat across the table from me, just like you would sit across from a like a third grader who didn't really want to do their homework. And um, I wrote it out on a big uh yellow pad, just like a pencil on yellow pad.

[19:33] Susan Blackwell: And it's one of those songs that because we lived it so much, I it came very quickly because I knew I wanted it to, I was like, I think I want it to have like a girl group feel, and I think it's kind of and I just tried to put it into rhymes that kind of just tried to capture the sentiment in rhymes. I don't know how to notate music, and I barely can read music.

[19:57] Susan Blackwell: So um I sort of sent hummed the tune to Jeff Bowen, and with Larry Pressgrove's help, they uh, you know, assigned real genuine notes to it and arranged it, and um that became Die Vampire Die, which was kind of like my big number in the show.

[20:15] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, it's it's an anthem in my mind. It's it's so important. And I think that you hit the nail on the head when you said it's not like you can get rid of those thoughts. You can't that we're all human beings, we're gonna have doubts, we're gonna have those fears. What's important is to identify them and set them aside or put a stake right through their heart.

[20:37] Susan Blackwell: I still I will tell you, even though um working on that show and subsequent work, creative work that I've done subsequently, and also just like therapeutic work and different kinds of like recovery work that I've done since then. Um, I have I am now markedly more confident than I was, say, 10 years ago or 14 years ago when we were making that show.

[21:02] Susan Blackwell: I used to struggle with profound stage fright, which was really debilitating. Um, and just all sorts of uh uh just I would I would characterize myself historically as a very fearful person and I am not anymore. And uh I do think that by in the same way that when you exercise a muscle, say you practice push-ups, and every day you're like, I'm gonna start with five push-ups, and then I'm gonna do the next day I'm gonna do 10, and the next day I'm gonna do 20, and the next day I'm gonna double it, and I'm gonna do you know, 30 or 40 or whatever, you get stronger.

[21:37] Susan Blackwell: Our brains work the same way. So if you have repetitive negative thoughts, those neural pathways get very, very strong. If you can disrupt that negative thinking and say, I see you, you little vampire, I got you. You can with time weaken those neural pathways, and they will become reabsorbed into the the matter that makes up the neural pathway can be reabsorbed into the body, and similar similarly, you can generate strong positive thought neural pathways, but it is like exercise, and that can be off putting because it's sort of like oh I don't want to work out, but it does take that level of rigor to um, but the payoff is phenomenal, it's just phenomenal.

[22:28] Susan Blackwell: Um, I noticed it's been we were chatting before we started recording. It's been five years since I did, I do a lot of film and television now, film, television, and teaching. It's been five years since I did the run of a show. And I did a very brief encourse that just concluded a few days ago. And I was in front of an audience of a couple thousand people for the first time in like five years.

[22:53] Susan Blackwell: I do one-off things here and there. I host things and stuff like that. But um, I walked on stage like there was a cool breeze blowing around me. I was so grounded and so not nervous that I was like, look how far we've come. And a lot of that has to do with a lot of it is meditating, which is, you know, another like self-care thing, but a lot of it has to do with getting right with um really working on what thoughts I permit to continu like habituate themselves and uh really yeah.

[23:31] Rory O'Malley: So anyway, No, I think a lot of times people think that the way to be a better performer on stage is to keep studying the craft. Don't worry about the person you are or what you're going through as a person. Just keep studying the craft, keep working on the music, keep working on the scene. If you have garbage going on in your head, it's gonna weigh you down as a performer on stage.

[23:56] Rory O'Malley: And you need to deal with it. I remember this is years ago, hearing a uh interview with a famous actor, and they were actress, and she was saying that I don't remember exactly who it was, but it was one of it was somebody who was saying, I don't go to therapy because I don't want to, you know, that's my raw material, and I don't want to like I don't want to resolve certain things because I want to be able to draw on them.

[24:21] Rory O'Malley: And I remember hearing it and thinking, I think that's a pantload for me anyway. That seems like a miserable seems like a miserable way to live. Um, I, where I am now, I would rather, I've never been happier, and I would rather be a really balanced grounded person who had a lot of equanimity, like just like very happy.

[24:49] Rory O'Malley: And then I can make work out of that. There's enough, there's enough conflict in the world and enough heartache that to draw from if you need to go to the dark place, all you have to do is like turn on the news or like go on Twitter. So I'm like, get I I don't know. I just want to, I want to be um, I want to have my shit sorted out and I want to still be able to make things.

[25:13] Susan Blackwell: Yes. You know what I mean?

[25:14] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[25:15] Rory O'Malley: I mean, hey, this is what I started this podcast for is to have conversations with actors about how they are happy how they stay happy in life, not how they get these huge careers, not how they're being so successful.

[25:27] Susan Blackwell: It's how do you stay happy? Because to me, that needs to be the goal. I actually remember a moment in my 20s where I made the decision that it was mostly important for me to be happy rather than successful. Because if success was going to take away from my happiness and make me miserable, then why do it? You know what I realized is that I could, if I can be just as happy not being an actor as I can be being an actor, then I'm gonna choose that route. That's so interesting to have you say that, Rory. I will tell you, one of my greatest, um, and it's not a huge struggle, but it does flare up for me. I was just saying this to a cast mate the other day. What something that flares up for me is I, so as I was saying, I've never been happier.

I really have created this life that's maybe it's not so off the beaten path, but it feels a little off the beaten path. Where I don't live in Manhattan. I, I kind of live in the middle of nowhere. I do a lot of film and television. So I do a lot of remote auditioning and self-tapes and that sort of thing. And I, you know, I live with my dogs and I live with my partner, and I'm really, really happy. And every once in a while, you know how when you're falling asleep and you have it, it's called a myoclonic jerk where you think you're kicking a soccer ball or something and your leg jerks in your dream and it like startles you awake?

[27:01] Rory O'Malley: Yeah, I know my husband does it a lot.

[27:03] Susan Blackwell: He kicks you like a soccer ball. Yes, um, so I get this like almost like an emotional myoclonic jerk where I'm like, oh my god, shouldn't you be doing more? Like, shouldn't you be striving more? Because I also, it's probably compounded by seeing friends. I'll use like a Lin-Manuel Miranda's a great example. Seeing friends, like real, like people that we did a lot of, you know, right? Like we monkey around, we did a lot of silly stuff together. Seeing them shoot off into space in terms of their success. And I'll be like, oh, should I be doing more?

[27:40] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[27:41] Susan Blackwell: And I pause and I'm like, how are you feeling? Are you happy? And I'm like, oh my God, I'm so happy. And then I'm like, easy. Just take it easy. Take it easy. Yeah. Um, I don't, I think having ambition, clean ambition is a positive thing, and having something to strive for and creating things to look forward to, I think that's super important in life. Comparison is the devil's toothbrush. But um, but it's an interesting thing, that happiness thing. And the truth is that it's harder to stay happy when you're in the stratosphere of that kind of success. And I'm, you know, Lin's a different breed because he's just completely happy all the time. Um, but to kind of maintain grounded happiness when you have more success is, it actually makes it, I think, more difficult.

[28:46] Rory O'Malley: Well, I feel like a lot of people that are in, even though we don't see each other every day because our paths have taken all of us to different compass points, a lot of the people that you and I hold near and dear have really prioritized this kind of a life outside of their career where they're very well-rounded, very holistic people. I think about people, these are just people that are popping into my mind right now, people like Gavin Creel, Celia Keenan-Bulger, these people who are whole people that have love in their life and they have maybe they have pets, maybe they fight for social justice, maybe they, um, this is a good way to live. And then you have somebody like Lin who has a tremendous amount of energy, who gets a lot of energy, I believe from, um, I almost think of Lin as like a super extrovert, like he really powers up from being around people.

I'm more of an introvert, which isn't always the easiest in a career in entertainment. But, um, but these are people that have really well-rounded interests in lives, and I think and have devoted some time to, um, you know, figuring them finding getting to happiness, yeah.

[30:12] Rory O'Malley: If you know, yeah.

[30:13] Susan Blackwell: Well, and I think that it's no coincidence that, you know, we've become friends with those types of people because once you find them in this business, you gravitate towards them, you hold on to them, you try to emulate what they're giving off. And, uh, you know, I think that it really was somewhere in my mid-20s where I could see there are certain people who have the kind of success that I want, but they are not happy, they are not happy in the way that I want. And I realize that, you know, having success does not mean you are going to be happy. So I wanted to prioritize happiness and well-being above success. I think that's a really common, and I'm sure you've talked about this in these conversations before. That is a really common conflation of ideas that success and happiness are going to be, they're gonna equal each other. And it's shocking when you get real up close and personal with somebody, and you're like, oh no.

[31:14] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[31:14] Susan Blackwell: And some of our most beloved Broadway film, like some of our most like performers that you're just like, oh my god, they're hilarious, and they're just the best, and oh, I would pay a million dollars to see them perform live. And they are so miserable. It's just not for me. It's just not for me. No, it's just not for me. And in fact, it, it, it, at that time when I started to realize that, it scared the shit out of me, to be honest. I thought, oh my God, you know, here's everything that I've been working towards, and that's not the answer. I'm gonna have to figure out who I am as a person and how to find happiness outside of art and success. And that scared me because then, you know, you're more naked and vulnerable to the world. This trick that you had that, you know, this high of being in the high school play wasn't going to be the be-all-end-all answer for life.

[32:17] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[32:17] Susan Blackwell: I also want to just, I think it's worth mentioning that I, I don't know about you, I'm not happy 24-7.

[32:25] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[32:25] Susan Blackwell: Uh, uh, by any stretch of the imagination, but I will say that I am, I, the word like equanimity keeps coming to mind, just sort of like a sense of a general sense of well-being, like, uh, uh, lower anxiety levels, lower depression levels. That's, and then the things will happen, you know, the dog will do something that will just make me laugh, and I have the capacity to enjoy that. And so, uh, I guess I have a greater capacity for happiness than I did when I was a younger person. I don't want people to think that we're just sitting around all day, just like, uh, look at us, we're the happiest sons of bitches.

[33:09] Rory O'Malley: Can I say that on this podcast?

[33:10] Susan Blackwell: You can. I was gonna call it Sons of Bitches. That was the first title, but I went with it in my dream instead.

[33:17] Rory O'Malley: Uh no, I, I totally, you know what it is. I think that I at some point realized that I didn't want to have the high highs if it meant I was gonna have these low lows.

[33:28] Susan Blackwell: Super low lows.

[33:29] Rory O'Malley: That if living somewhere in between and just kind of a small rolling hills rather than these big ups and downs of emotional anxiety and, and my nervous system's not the best for the high highs. That's why sometimes when I look at like just seeing the adventures that, for instance, like Lin is on, Lin-Manuel Miranda, I'm like, oh, I think my nervous system will be so crisp.

[33:54] Susan Blackwell: Though I think he's sort of built his, he has nervous system stamina at this point.

[33:59] Rory O'Malley: Exactly.

[34:00] Susan Blackwell: Um, but I, I think that might be a little too, uh, too dynamic for me, even.

[34:08] Rory O'Malley: That's, that's what I, my best friend Josh Gad. You know, we were, we were in college together from freshman year.

[34:13] Susan Blackwell: He has, he does big adventures too.

[34:15] Rory O'Malley: Yes, he does. He's always been that way, and I knew that that was not necessarily my cup of tea, the kind of, uh, uh, high energy situations that he thrived in. And I knew that he was going to be what he is from the first moment I met him, you know. Like this was, this was his destiny was to be traveling in this, uh, the world that he's traveling in.

[34:41] Susan Blackwell: Yeah.

[34:41] Rory O'Malley: And, and you know, I remember when we go to college parties and he would start talking to the seniors when we were freshmen. I was like, you can't do that. We're fresh.

[34:53] Susan Blackwell: He's still talking to the seniors.

[34:54] Rory O'Malley: And I'm with the freshmen, like, let's hide in the corner and just be grateful they let us in the door, you know.

[35:01] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, it is sort of what you're, it's not, it's like what works with your temperament.

[35:06] Rory O'Malley: Yes, yes.

[35:08] Susan Blackwell: Oh, Day Dreamers, just taking a quick break to remind you about our special offer from Gold Star.

[35:15] Rory O'Malley: Go to goldstar.com backslash Rory.

[35:18] Susan Blackwell: Enter the promo code Rory and you will get an additional ten dollars off your first order.

[35:24] Rory O'Malley: That's goldstar.com backslash Rory and get that sweet, sweet ten dollars off.

[35:30] Susan Blackwell: And it supports the podcast.

[35:33] Rory O'Malley: All right. Now back to the guest.

[35:36] Susan Blackwell: Yes. Let's, let's go to where it all started, Ohio.

[35:41] Rory O'Malley: Let's go back through.

[35:43] Susan Blackwell: Let's go back to the Buckeye State. Um, we're both from Ohio.

[35:48] Rory O'Malley: Um, what did it mean to you to grow up in Ohio?

[35:52] Susan Blackwell: You were in Dayton?

[35:55] Rory O'Malley: Well, I was born in Dayton and then we moved to the country.

[35:58] Susan Blackwell: And, uh, so the big city of Dayton and then the, listen, we were again, uh, we were much like now. I, and I feel very, it's funny, my sister is visiting right now, she's in the living room as we speak. And we were driving yesterday. I wanted to take her to the farmer's market, and she said, this really looks like Ohio. And I was like, yeah, I think it's why I'm really comfortable here because it's very reminiscent of where we grew up.

[36:26] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[36:26] Susan Blackwell: Um, so we moved, lived, we kind of lived in the middle of nowhere, and, um, and how can I say this respectfully to all parties? I, uh, I'm gonna say blue-collar. Um, I've written about this in my work, so this is not a, I'm not outing myself here and now, but, um, I grew up in a hoarding house with hoarders. So, um, it was when I say like a dirty girl from Ohio, I kind of mean a dirty girl from Ohio. Like, uh, literally, which was a source of a great deal of shame for a long time. And I am not, and I'm not ashamed, I, I just don't feel any shame about it anymore. I also learned when I moved out, I'm actually not a hoarder. I'm actually a pretty tidy person, but I'm definitely, but I'm not ashamed, like I'm like there are many members of my family who are, and I have no, I want the best for them, but I couldn't be more proud of my family and I have no shame about it. I just, it is what it is.

[37:31] Rory O'Malley: So, um, so not fancy.

[37:33] Susan Blackwell: That is all I, the only reason I say to make my earlier point, which is not fancy. Um, didn't go to the, I liked where I went to school, but not the greatest school.

[37:44] Rory O'Malley: Um, I liked my education, but not like I didn't go to Juilliard, I didn't go to Carnegie Mellon, like I'm not the fanciest in the world.

[37:53] Susan Blackwell: But, um, but there is, I was just talking to somebody the other day who said, you're from Ohio, aren't you? I'm from near, I'm from Indiana or something. And I stopped and I said, there's something, this is a gross generalization, but it's, I've found it to be true a lot of the time.

[38:14] Susan Blackwell: There's something about people from this part of the Midwest that like sort of move to a big city and become an artist. There's something so good that runs through the center of them, I've found.

[38:26] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[38:27] Susan Blackwell: I'm sure some of them are still well. I mean, that's why I think I literally moved to the city and within the first week gravitated towards you. And I also, my husband is from Indiana, so yeah, you better believe it's a good idea. We kind of take care of each other and see something that is familiar in each other, like a kindness. And I remember the first off-Broadway show. I moved to New York, I got cast on an off-Broadway show in weeks, and I was like, I am gonna be a star. It's gonna be like this forever. So, um, but I was talking to the director before rehearsal one day, and he goes, I love women from Ohio. There's actors from Ohio, there's a clean ambition there. And I always remembered it when he goes, There's a clean ambition there. I love that you said that before, clean ambition. I like that.

[39:16] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[39:17] Susan Blackwell: That was Max Mirror said that to me once, and I was like, Yeah, it feels like on the inside. Like I work hard for the power, I fight for the powers of good. I'm pretty honest, like, uh, just sort of, I don't know. So I'm thankful for my, I'm very, very thankful for I love my parents and I love my, um, dirty Ohio roots. And as I was just discussing with my sister, we were talking about how because of the environment that we grew up in, I have, I don't think I've ever had food poisoning in my entire life. And we believe that our resistance, I know I'm being completely sincere here. My resistance to that sort of thing has was so built up by the way I grew up. I'm goddamn bulletproof.

[40:02] Rory O'Malley: Wow, you can eat at any fast food chain.

[40:02] Susan Blackwell: I feel like I've never, I've just never had food poisoning. And when everybody else has had food poisoning eating the same meal, I'll be like, I feel fine. What's up with you guys? So go figure.

[40:19] Rory O'Malley: That's amazing.

[40:20] Susan Blackwell: That's one good benefit of growing up in a boarding house. What was the first step of you getting out of your area? You went, you worked in a theater company, right?

[40:30] Susan Blackwell: So I went to school about 30 minutes. I went to Wright State University, which is about a 30-minute drive from, and I had grown up seeing shows there, and I really admired the work that they did. And I loved my education there. And I still am pretty active. Like I meet the graduating theater student seniors every year when they come for showcase, and I'm very, I'm still very tied to that department. Then I went to graduate school at the University of Minnesota. That school used to be a feeder program for the Guthrie Theater. And I thought I was gonna be a classical repertory, like a Shakespearean actor. And so I went there, and I was like, oh, I was in the acting company at the Guthrie for a few years.

It was the first time I had moved away from home, and I was so homesick, and it took me like a solid couple years to, I was always just a super late bloomer. And I was just really, I just really missed my family and my friends and home life. So it was, I was, I was again very historically like a very shy, believe it or not, this, yeah, I think it's a God's honest truth. Like very shy, very shy, very introverted person. So, um, it just wasn't easy. It was that wasn't an easy transition. But while I was at the Guthrie, I was working with a really great actor who was in the company in from New York. His name was Thomas J. Ryan. And if some of you recently saw the very celebrated production of Dance Nation, he played the dance teacher Pat.

That show just closed and it was fantastic. But he, um, and he'll be coming to Broadway in the nap, but he said, I have an extra bedroom in my apartment in New York, and if you want to move to New York, I will kick my roommate out and you can move in. And I was like, I'm going for it. I'm gonna use this opportunity to make the leap and move to New York. And I never looked back.

[42:42] Rory O'Malley: Wow.

[42:43] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. But all at sea, it's like, oh, that's all it takes. Like a little like somebody being like, You can sleep, you have you can sleep on my couch for two weeks, or somebody saying, or some like some your some aunt dies, and you're like all of a sudden you have a thousand dollars and you're like, Well, I'm gonna go for it, you know. You have to embrace that moment. If you want, if yeah, if you that door, you see, yeah, walk through that door. So you, uh, you so you were in New York, and I want to get to the genesis of title of show and how it all came about. But how what did you do in between the time of when you arrived in New York and were in that show?

[43:27] Susan Blackwell: Well, I was super lucky because I had a man, I had representation the minute I came to New York.

[43:35] Rory O'Malley: That's great.

[43:35] Susan Blackwell: Um, I had been introduced by a friend of mine from school to the management company where he worked as an assistant. And so they took me on as a client. His name was Ben Wackerman. I loved him dearly, and I moved to New York. They took me on as a client, and I'm gonna say within two to three weeks after moving to New York, he passed away.

[43:59] Rory O'Malley: Oh my god.

[44:00] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. So it was almost like they, Ben passed away and they inherited me. And I've been with them ever since. I've been with the same manager ever since.

[44:06] Rory O'Malley: That's amazing.

[44:09] Susan Blackwell: That's really actually unheard of. That's fantastic. It's an interesting thing. It's like, uh, it's very small management company. Um, they're the right, it's to our conversation earlier, they're the right speed for me because I'm not like a, you know, I'm not just I just I'm a kind of a sensitive tender heart. I'm not a hard charging kind of person. So they're they're the right sort of they're just right for me. So we've been we've been together for a long time. But um, I started like a lot of people do auditioning doing small parts on like Law and Order, or like I like I said, almost immediately after I got to town, I got lucky and I just had a really good audition and I got cast in an off-Broadway show at the American Jewish Theater, which is now the Upright Citizens Brigade Theater that's underneath the supermarket in Chelsea.

[45:04] Rory O'Malley: Yes, in Chelsea.

[45:05] Susan Blackwell: Yes, so that used to be the American Jewish Theater. So I did a show there, and I thought I was gonna never stop working. Cut to me working in an office for like two decades. Right. But I never stopped, even when I there was time there were times when I was so burnt out that I stopped auditioning. I never stopped being creative. Right. Sometimes that was initiated by me. Sometimes, if I was really tired, it was initiated by people around me, people like my friend Laura Camion, who I still collaborate with. Uh, Hunter Bell and Jeff Bowen, who, um, so I had a two-hand performance duo called The New Wonder Twins with a woman who I'd gone to college with named Rebecca Finnegan. And it really was, if I'm honest, Rory, it was in response to not getting the kind of work that was really satisfying, the creative work that was really satisfying.

So, in a way, it was in response to rejection. And I was like, well, if it's not gonna come to me externally, then I need to start creating opportunities for myself to do all the weird things that I can do. Rebecca Finnegan, who is now a very celebrated actor in Chicago, it had this, she's a great actress, and she also has this really tremendous singing voice, sort of a Broadway caliber singing voice. And we would do these very strange, um, we hosted a series at PS122 for a long time called Avant Garda Rama. And we would, at some point, we decided we wanted backup singer dancers. We were already working with Jeff Bowen, he was our composer/slash music director.

[46:44] Rory O'Malley: Oh, I didn't know all this. I love this.

[46:45] Susan Blackwell: And Jeff Bowen, um, when we were like, we want to have Sparkle Vision dancers. Um, and they were gonna, we wanted three male singer dancers who could deliver like a Broadway caliber. Yeah. And one of them was our friend Tom Schulteis, who I still collaborate with, and one of them was Hunter Bell. And these were people who could really sing, they could really dance, and they were really, they had great comic timing. And we would do these great big, you know, we would host this avant-garde rama, which was basically an avant-garde talent show at PS122, and we'd do these very well rehearsed, site specific um meta opening number to open the show, to close the first act, to open the second act, and to close the show.

We would do these great, we would rehearse for two months and then we would play for two nights. It was really crazy. But what I didn't realize when we were doing this is number one, we were forging the relationships that would later be the foundation for a lot of the creative collaboration we were doing. But also we were developing a voice and an aesthetic that was meta, very self-acknowledging, that was um in a way very site specific. So we would literally do numbers where we would find out who was gonna be in the audience that night, find out what their star sign was, write it into the lyric of the song, and then be like, you, you Mark Russell, how's it feel being a Sagittarius? And just to like blow one person's mind.

It was so, so specific. But a lot of that, that very specific sort of meta self-knowledge and humor with a little bit dash of the Muppet show. Like we we sort of um were developing kind of our voice at that time. And um at some point, Hunter and Jeff got an application for the New York Musical Theater Festival, and they said, We're just gonna start, we have three weeks to the deadline, we're gonna start writing this show. Do you want to? I got a call from Hunter, and he was like, Do you want to be a part of this? And I was like, Oh, I'm so burnt out and tired from working in my office. Let me think about it and we'll talk tomorrow. And then he called me the next day before I could even respond, and he said, We wrote you into the show last night, so you're you're gonna be in it. And I was like, That sounds like an adventure. Let's do it. And that was how that's how I got suckered into that.

[49:21] Rory O'Malley: That's amazing. I mean, and you don't, I don't really guess. I don't have to ask how what happened with the show because you just need to see the show, and then you know what the for people for people that don't know though, just so just if you haven't seen it, we started at it's not there anymore, but there used to be a theater down near Washington Square Park called the Manhattan Theater Source, and it was literally 50 folding chairs, and we started it there. Our friend Laura Cammy, who I just mentioned, she was our producer, and she actually she partnered with Kevin O'Collum, but she produced it all the way through to Broadway. So again, it was all the I guess the point I want to make is we did it with friends, and eventually other people got like rolled up into the snowball as it got bigger and bigger and rolled down the hill.

But um, so an image that has always stuck with me that I said one day to Hunter and Jeff is so we're in this room making this show something that makes us laugh, something that's pleasing to us, something that we would want to watch. And I did I mention something that makes us laugh. So something that just tickles us. And what I didn't realize is that the room we were in was an elevator, and it kept the doors kept opening, and there would just be more seats and more people watching us, and then the doors would close and we'd keep working on it and keep making each other laugh, blood, sweat, and tears, and the doors would open again and we'd be in our SNOVA.

[50:50] Susan Blackwell: And there'd be a hundred seats, and the doors would close, and we'd keep working on it, and the doors would open again, and we would be at the vineyard, and there'd be, you know, so and then eventually we were at the Lyceum Theater in front of, you know, even more people on Broadway.

[51:03] Susan Blackwell: But it really was a lot of my historical anxiety and stage fright and nervousness was absorbed into this process where I was just with my friends, making them laugh, and I was in what I was called a catcher's mitt of safety, surrounded by these people that I felt very safe with.

[51:22] Susan Blackwell: So that by the time we got out on stage, I was like, well, I'm still essentially sitting around the kitchen table with my friends. It's just that now it's on a Broadway stage in front of 1,000 people.

[51:33] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[51:33] Susan Blackwell: And that was a really great, um, it's one of those lessons. I don't know if just hearing it is helpful, but living it sure did the trick.

[51:43] Rory O'Malley: Well, it was, I think, because you guys were so wonderful at letting people in and be a part of the journey from you guys getting from, you know, an off-Broadway from a small space to Broadway, it felt like we all were on that journey with you.

[52:01] Rory O'Malley: And I think we all learn from that.

[52:03] Susan Blackwell: I think it also, when you see four, Heidi was more, Heidi Blickenstaff was more well-known, but when you see a bunch of people that you're like, I have no idea who those jackasses are, and they've done this and they've made it this far. My hope has always been that it emboldened people to be like, well, if those four unknown idiots can do it, certainly I can open my bake shop, or certainly I can write that book that's sort of been knocking on my door. I can, like, if they can do it, why not me?

[52:35] Rory O'Malley: And so that is my hope is that it was that it emboldened people.

[52:40] Susan Blackwell: Oh, it, it, it, I can speak from personal experience, it definitely emboldened me. And I certainly didn't think of you guys as a bunch of idiots. I thought you were superstars, but I was so inspired.

[52:49] Rory O'Malley: Yes.

[52:49] Susan Blackwell: But I was so inspired by what you had done. I remember there was a benefit of, uh, Little Whorehouse.

[53:01] Rory O'Malley: Oh, yeah, Bessel Horizons, and you guys came up from the stage.

[53:05] Susan Blackwell: The four of you came up from below. You had this huge entrance, and the crowd went wild. And I knew who you guys were. I had seen the show, and I just thought not only are you guys the most amazing group of people, but the Broadway community and the theater community is so amazing that they can champion artists who have come from downtown and created this thing to a Broadway stage, and we were all cheering, not just for you, but with you.

[53:38] Rory O'Malley: It was like a victory for everyone in the community.

[53:43] Susan Blackwell: And I think that says so much about our community, but it also says so much about you guys and the kind of people that you are and that you are sharing that experience with us fans.

[53:53] Susan Blackwell: I just feel really fortunate to have, number one, to be the proxy. Do you know what I mean? That I was like, oh, how lucky I am that I was just in the right place at the right time to get to be the proxy, but also really super lucky because I, I mean, I know it's said a lot, and you just, you just said it, but this community of people, and even though I mean, I do a show, I do an internet show called Side by Side by Susan Blackwell, where I interview Broadway film and TV people that are currently doing, you know, Broadway shows.

[54:23] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[54:23] Susan Blackwell: I haven't been on Broadway for 10 years, and I still feel so loved and accepted and respected. It really is a wonderful, wonderful community of people.

[54:35] Rory O'Malley: No, there's, there's, there's nothing like it. I mean, I'm living in Los Angeles right now, and I still feel very much in the loop of what it is because it's really just, it's a big party, and once you get to be a part of it, you don't really even have to be on Broadway. It really is just if you love theater, you are a part of it.

[54:54] Susan Blackwell: It's, you're a part of it. You know who's another, back to your, uh, I'm interrupting you, but back to when we're talking about those people that, uh, are really balanced and just really sane and great. I think Kelly O'Hara is a wonderful model of that too.

[55:07] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[55:11] Susan Blackwell: She really has that going on, that sort of just, when you're thinking of models for not even models for like your entertainment career, but models for living.

[55:22] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[55:23] Susan Blackwell: Somebody like that who has, I remember so clearly, I was interviewing her in a, it was in front of a live audience of people. Uh, do a, I interview people a lot, and it was, I was interviewing her in front of a live audience of people, and somebody either I asked or one of the audience members asked a question about what advice she would give, which is a good common question. And she said something about don't be too neurotic. Like, don't be neurotic about your voice, don't be too neurotic about, um, you know, why didn't I get, you know, just ease up on the neuroses. And I was like, that is good. And she lives that, she lives that way. Anyway, I interrupted you.

[56:05] Rory O'Malley: No, no, no. I was just gonna say another part of the, of what why I was inspired by you. This is all just about how I'm so inspired by you, Susan. But you, uh, we ran into each other on, uh, subway. It was one of the first times that we met.

[56:20] Susan Blackwell: Wait, wait, are you, are you sure is the subway or are do we meet in the quad in front of the Laura Pels Roundabout Theater? That's what I recollect.

[56:30] Rory O'Malley: Do you know what I'm talking about?

[56:33] Susan Blackwell: Yes, no, I remember, but maybe it's we met in a couple different ways. This one was when I was like, uh, fangirling to you about title of show on a subway.

[56:44] Rory O'Malley: I might have actually followed you out of the subway. I can't remember.

[56:47] Susan Blackwell: That seems likely. I think that's right. I think you're right. But it's so we're both right. I knew who you were, and I was like, maybe we're getting out at the same time. Hopefully, I wasn't totally a stalker, but it started on a subway.

[57:02] Rory O'Malley: That's where I remember seeing you, and I was like, I have to talk to her.

[57:06] Susan Blackwell: You started the stalking on the subway, and it actually, I think the contact actually happened on street level.

[57:11] Rory O'Malley: Yes, no, that's, that now that makes sense.

[57:14] Susan Blackwell: Which I remember so, number one, I meet, as you do, yeah, so many people. And I remember that like it was yesterday. You made such a positive impression on me, and you just like, it was like cutting through, you cut right into the present moment. It was so interesting. I remember that very clearly.

[57:36] Rory O'Malley: Well, it was, it was, you know, not long after I had seen you do the show, and, uh, you know, it was a genuine experience I had watching you perform, and like it was for so many people in the community, it meant so much to me. And in that conversation, we also talked about our office jobs. That you and, and I had actually moved to New York and was in Spelling Bee, uh, within a month of moving to New York, but I had already gotten a temp job at, uh, a financial firm.

[58:05] Susan Blackwell: And I kept the financial firm job throughout my time in Spelling Bee on Broadway because I was old enough to realize what a good side job could do for me and how important it was to find the right one.

[58:19] Rory O'Malley: And you telling me that after seeing, you know, I mean, at that moment, as I still do, I idolized you. I, you were exactly the kind of, you were living the dream in the way that I wanted to live it. And you were talking about your office job, and I can't tell you the kind of satisfaction and, and, uh, what you gave me in that moment by telling me that because, uh, here I am, you know, going doing filing papers at, at an office thinking I'm not doing it. You know, this isn't it. I'm not, I should be somewhere. I'm losing. And you, someone who was so succeeding in my eyes, taught saying, you know, this is something I do to get to all these things. This is part of the dream. It changed my mindset, and I stayed there for three years, off and on, going to do acting jobs and always having, uh, a place that I was grateful to come back to, an office that would greet me with open arms and let me feed myself in between acting jobs.

[59:20] Susan Blackwell: And I realized this is a part of living the dream. And you telling me about it and having that conversation with me gave me permission to have that be okay too.

[59:34] Rory O'Malley: I think, Rory, and I think that for a long time, I carried secret shame that because I had the office job, it meant I wasn't successful. And in fact, if I, there were time, there was a period in my life, it was actually right before title of show moved off Broadway, that I really stopped a lot of stuff and just did the office job. And when I wasn't distracted by a life of creativity or self-expression, yes, I was miserable, but I was so good at the office job that my corporate ascension, I was like, oh, I could ride this straight up the mountain till the wheels come off and make a lot of money, but I was so, so unhappy.

[1:00:22] Susan Blackwell: So, um, but I had like a, uh, I really kept church and state divided because I didn't want, I didn't want my, the people in the office to think I was just like a flaky flake. So it was on a need to know basis that people would know. And then I didn't want people in the entertainment industry to think that I was unsuccessful or partially successful because I still had to maintain a like a support job.

[1:00:50] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[1:00:50] Susan Blackwell: And when I made the decision, and it was kind of title of show forced the issue because we talked about our day lives and our day jobs in my case, I was declaring that on a stage, and I was like, well, this is where the worlds collide, and I'm just going to be honest. I'm gonna be honest about who I am and not try to like keep these different parts of my lives sequestered from each other.

[1:01:21] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[1:01:22] Susan Blackwell: And that's when, when things got really real, and I was just honest and let go of the shame of it. That's when things got easier. I became more successful. It all sort of happened at the same time.

[1:01:35] Rory O'Malley: And I see how people now are, they really think they're failing because they have to have, and also it can be very taxing. I don't want to like where people are just like, I'm, I see it in the eyes of many of my students, where they're like, I don't think I can nanny anymore. I feel like I am, especially if you are like approaching your 30s and you're just like, I'm so tired. Like people, I see it in people's eyes. But I'm like, you can be tired and we can talk about strategies for working with this, but I would love to hold the lantern up and burn off the shame because that is, it's just, it's just using up your energy in a way that we could put it towards better things than you being ashamed of the fact that you can't yet make your living entirely from, um, just doing the one thing that you set your heart on when you were 17 years old, right?

[1:02:34] Susan Blackwell: Yeah, yes, yeah, and it's also, it was shocking when I realized like I am probably more of my gifts, not comparing myself to anyone else, my gifts, I'm probably more gifted as a teacher than anything. And I was like, oh, but I want to be the world's greatest actor, and I was like, guess what? You're a teacher. So, um, being like, well, then I'm going to really take advantage of my time on the planet and try to be of service to as many people as possible. Did I mention I'm doing a workshop on July 28th? Um, I to be of service to people and also not being like, you know, when I talk to my really fancy people, successful friends who are in the entertainment industry, not being bashful about that either.

[1:03:21] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[1:03:21] Susan Blackwell: And uh, you know, when I'm talking to people who when I'm doing a I just finished this movie and I'm in love with uh Julian Moore, who starred in it, and and just we're talking with her, her husband Bart Freundlich wrote directed it.

[1:03:35] Susan Blackwell: And I'm proud now that I'm like I teach a lot and I'm really good at it. And I don't know, just even entering the conversation with that energy of being like, this is a part of my life, and I'm profoundly proud of it. I'm proud of the people that I've supported and the way that I've supported myself with that work. It changes the tenor of the conversation because then people lean in and they're like, tell me more. Right. What tell me more? That's fascinating, you know. So I don't know what the point of all that was.

[1:04:09] Rory O'Malley: Well, and how many be proud of yourself?

[1:04:12] Susan Blackwell: Absolutely at every moment because it's all a part of the journey. It really is a vi and in fact it's the most vital part of the journey in my eyes is being able to swallow your pride of having to do work that isn't directly linked to whatever you learned in acting class, and actually saying, I will do whatever it takes to be an artist. And I think that you know what's so funny is that I know that my experience in that office has given me so much more as a performer, listen and as a business person.

[1:04:49] Rory O'Malley: I agree.

[1:04:50] Susan Blackwell: Number one, the business, like knowing how to stay organized, keep your desk cleared off, like keep your finances straight. But also, I say this over and over again, and I'm sure acting students are like, uh-huh, yeah. But I'm like, when I go to play a professional person, whether that's an attorney, a judge, you name it, I'm not guessing. This movie that I just finished, I play, I loved this, I had such a positive experience doing this movie. And I played Julianne Moore's executive assistant in this movie. And I reported to, I first of all when I auditioned, I read the script and I was like, oh, if I don't get this, it's because they don't they need somebody who looks different than I do. Because I know this in my bones.

[1:05:40] Rory O'Malley: Yeah.

[1:05:40] Susan Blackwell: And same way I did a movie called Margin Call, where the movie, which I'm very proud to be a part of, and the movie starts with me, Zachary, the great Zachary Quinto, also a balanced, well-rounded person. The movie starts with me and ends with me, a lot of firing people, and I've hired and fired many people. And so when I got that very well beautifully written script by JC Chandor, and I read it, I was like, oh, I know how to do this. And I remember going to the audition and saying, I don't talk about this a lot in auditions for obvious reasons, but I do this, I live this life.

[1:06:16] Rory O'Malley: Right.

[1:06:17] Susan Blackwell: Do you want the actor version of this, like the up in the air version of what it means to terminate someone? Right. Or do you want this to be what it's really like to terminate someone? And it was a sincere question. Yes. And Zach Quinto was the first person I auditioned for for that movie, and he said, I'd love to see the real version. And I kind of like quieted myself and then lifted up my head, and I used the scene to terminate that poor reader. And that's where I'm like, not I say this to students all the time, nothing is for not. These experiences, whether it's a side job or a trauma or a life experience, nothing is for naught. And I draw on that stuff every day in my work.

[1:07:06] Susan Blackwell: When I showed up to work on this movie that I just filmed, I got there and I said, I want you to know that I have lived this life. I lived it for a long time. And I almost became in a very light sort of way, like a resource. And they would say, Do you think that she would blank? And I would say, in my experience, this, this, this, and this. And they would say, okay, and it would be woven into the fabric of the movie. Right. And I was just, I don't know. I was like, nothing is for naught. Right. I then I and that's the moments where I'm like, I'm really proud that I have that experience, and I can bring that to the conversation and bring it to the creative process.

[1:07:51] Susan Blackwell: I think so much for us as performers, we find the oasis in life that is our local community theater, that is our safe space, that is our group of people that our tribe that we can travel with and feel good with. Yeah. And it's hard when we do it professionally to go outside of that bubble and have to earn money or be in out in the world with real people living like however, if we don't get out of this bubble of what are you drawing from? What are you drawing from? We're drawing from now. I know, like I was thinking of actors that you know, if you're preparing to play a police officer, and so you go and do ride-alongs, and there's definitely ways to acquire the information that you need to prepare for the work that you're doing, other than like going to an office like four or five days a week. I know I know that, I know that. But I having put the time in, I do not I look back on my life and I don't I don't regret, I do not regret that time I put in because I draw from it every day.

[1:09:05] Susan Blackwell: It has expanded my humanity, you know, even to a just to make take your point and like open the lens up even more. I think it's it really I've been exposed to so many different kinds of people, great people, kind people, harsh people, extremely challenging people, people that throw tantrums and cell phones, you know, and I draw from when I'm acting, so I just finished doing this um this encores at City Center where I was playing, I don't know, maybe like oh during the course of the evening, I'm playing eight or nine or ten different characters.

[1:09:44] Rory O'Malley: Oh god, I wish I could have seen that.

[1:09:46] Susan Blackwell: I was majestic. I thought I was very proud of it. I thought it was a beautiful piece. And um, and when I'm when I'm doing um a lot of people don't know this because they don't have occasion to see, well, maybe they do frequently, but I can do kind of deep character work where I look and sound very different than what you're familiar with than you would be familiar with from like a title of show or watching side by side by Susan Blackwell. Right. And when I really I was reminded that when I am doing that sort of um when I say deeper character work, I mean where you really appearance or my voice is very obscured. Typically, what I do is I have I hold the image of someone or thing in my mind almost in miniature, and then I can cast it out like through my body, through my face, almost like a film projector, like an old-time film projector. That's the way I visualize it.

[1:10:49] Susan Blackwell: So if I have the model, the miniature model in my mind, I can then I can do the thing with my voice that I need to do to make it come to life, right? Whatever it is. And um if you have have worked and met a lot of people, not just in your your school or your community theater or your theater community, if you have had exposure to lots of different people, that's why I I have nothing but love and gratitude for the family I grew up in, the way I grew up, because I have been exposed to a lot of different in my life and in my work, I've been exposed to thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people that become all of those miniature models in my mind that I can draw from so that when I get when I sit down at the first rehearsal at um, you know, at Encore's at City Center, I can just sort of relax and be like, I think she might talk like that.

I think she might say she kept him in a little dish, you know, because I know those people. That's the mother of my friend Kaylee, who I went to high school with. Like, right. So I or like, or that it can say, like, I don't know nothing about that. That's the that's the grandmother of my thing. Like, I can I can pull from all those people that I've I've met, and a lot of that comes from working in those jobs and coming from where you're come from. And so it's it's not only making peace with all of that, it's actually being having a profound sense of like gratitude. And like, I this is has actually I didn't know it the whole time, but it's actually been a blessing the whole time. Or that's how I'm choosing to characterize it in my life. And that works out great for those repetitive positive thoughts.

[1:12:40] Rory O'Malley: Well, I I'm very grateful myself for the journey that got you to where you are and who you are, because it has had such a profound effect on my life and in a very friendly way. I just I I because I feel so comfortable with you, and I do, and I always have. Since the moment I saw you on stage, you didn't even know who I was. I felt very much a kinship with you and and and your story, and I'm so so grateful that you've taken the time today to talk with me on Living the Dream because you certainly are living the dream and in a way that I'm continually trying to emulate and experience in the same way that you are.

[1:13:27] Susan Blackwell: Rory, those words are so kind, and I'm just letting them like soak into my heart. Um, I love you so much, and I'm so I'm so happy for you, and I'm so um proud of you for using your capacity and your time in this way to I don't know, just spread a really good, healthy, useful word. I think it's really I I just I couldn't be more proud to be your friend.

[1:13:53] Rory O'Malley: Well, thank you. And it's it's once again, so I'm getting permission from people like you who've always been able to have these conversations with other artists, whether it's you know, at a backstage or if it's in your apartment or it's just talking on the subway. Um listen, you guys, I'm not just this nice terrori. I'm this kind and like tenderhearted with everybody. So come if you have any interest in if you're in New York on July 28th and you have a little bit of time, money, come and um come and take this workshop with me. If you've wanted to, if you maybe you have a little creative idea that's been knocking on your door and you need just a little help bringing it to the surface. Or maybe here's another here's another thing, you might be a very seasoned creative person and even a seasoned maker of things, but maybe you're a little burnt out, or you're just interested in continuing your learning and learning a different entry point or a different process to spark something new in your work. We have very seasoned screenwriters and things like people of all different kinds of people come, but the one thing, the one factor that they usually have in common is that they're all awesome.

[1:15:09] Susan Blackwell: Yeah. No, I I I know that that's the kind of people that you attract in your life, and that you know, I would just go to hang out with you and to get the encouragement of life. Um, and and living. Just come and smell, just smell what it smells like to sit next to me. Maybe you'll be able to do that. Sometimes it's an awesome. I'm trying to mature past looking faces.

[1:15:34] Rory O'Malley: Okay, all right. That's it.

[1:15:35] Susan Blackwell: It's a new I'm just fully six-packing people now. I'm just reaching over and just six-packing now.

[1:15:41] Rory O'Malley: Perfect.

[1:15:41] Susan Blackwell: If you don't know what that means, don't Google it because the things that are gonna come up are not cute. Okay. Don't don't do it. Okay, don't do it, mom.

[1:15:49] Susan Blackwell: Um, I love you very, very much. Thank you so much. Listeners, I love you too. I thanks for taking the time to listen to all this and thanks for caring. It's so much better than um being punched in the face. Audition side job, swimming upstream. Believe it or not, you'll live in the dream.