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[0:10] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping the College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process.

[0:20] Charlie Murphy: I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, director of MTCA. That's Musical Theater College Auditions. And today we have got a wicked kinky borderline illegally blonde show lined up for you.

[0:32] Charlie Murphy: It's not a kinky show. I was just doing all the titles. You understand?

[0:34] Charlie Murphy: I was worried where you were going.

[0:36] Charlie Murphy: Yes. Annaleigh Ashford, of course, is an amazing actress and also the wife of MTCA's own wonderful Joe Tapper.

[0:44] Charlie Murphy: Um, I have a funny story. I think it's funny about Annaleigh that I forgot to tell her during the interview, which was during our opening night of Brightwich Farm. This is a play that my theater company produced, and it starred the great Joe Tapper in it.

[0:56] Charlie Murphy: Uh, my dad came to our opening night party, as did of course Annaleigh. And my dad kept waving at her like he knew her.

[1:02] Charlie Murphy: And at one point, I turned to my dad and I was like, Dad, what are you doing? He's like, I know her, right? She was one of your classmates, which, in fairness to my dad, like literally, like Katie Whelan was in that show, like Alejandro, some people that he does know very well are in the show, and he doesn't always remember who he knows and doesn't know.

[1:02] Charlie Murphy: And I was like, No, Dad, you don't know her. And he was like, I swear, I could swear, she's been to our house. There's one time she was at our house, right? And I was like, no, Dad, you've just seen her on your television. You've just you watch Masters of Sex.

[1:24] Charlie Murphy: He was very embarrassed. But you know what? Now he's even more embarrassed because the whole world knows the story as well.

[1:30] Charlie Murphy: Today on the show, we get into growing up in Denver Theater as a child actor and some of the advantages of seeing some of those challenges as a young adult.

[1:38] Charlie Murphy: Um, we talk about going to college in New York City and the Marymount Manhattan experience. Uh, we talk about survival jobs, the importance of juggling your life and your schedule artistically and in your life.

[1:49] Charlie Murphy: Um, we talk about experiencing rejection and the ups and downs of this business. We talk about being creative in spirit.

[1:55] Charlie Murphy: We talk about Annaleigh's thoughts on comedy technique versus magic. Um, she gives Joe's wonderful advice of champions adjust in a great Joe Tapper impression later in the episode.

[2:05] Charlie Murphy: And then we talk a little bit about self-care and the idea of, you know, getting into therapy and moving your body and how important that is for us all as actors.

[2:13] Charlie Murphy: But Meghan, before we dive into the episode, I know this was one you were very excited about.

[2:18] Meghan Cordier: I was very excited because Annaleigh Ashford was also on my TV as your dad, because I watched that MTV special Legally Blonde on Repeat as like a high schooler.

[2:18] Meghan Cordier: I loved it, so it was like a nice little look back into my teen years watching that pink set.

[2:36] Meghan Cordier: So it was fun seeing a peek into her life now.

[2:39] Charlie Murphy: So true. Later in the show we talk about, um, you know, a lot of people want to be Annaleigh, and she was like, No, I've never heard that.

[2:44] Charlie Murphy: I'm like a lot of people say it. Whether you've heard it or not, a lot of people say.

[2:48] Charlie Murphy: You were clearly not listening because that is for sure true.

[2:52] Charlie Murphy: More of a raw role model than even she knows.

[2:55] Charlie Murphy: Um, well, let's dive right into it in this episode with Annaleigh Ashford.

[3:04] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are delighted to be joined by Annaleigh Ashford today on the pod.

[3:10] Charlie Murphy: Uh, Annaleigh attended Marymount Manhattan College. Her Broadway credits include Legally Blonde, Wicked, Hair, Kinky Boots, for which she received a Tony Nom and a Drama Desk Nom, Sunday in the Park with George, Sylvia, You Can't Take It With You, for which she won a Tony Award, a Drama Desk Award, and an Outer Critic Circle Award for her amazing performance.

[3:29] Charlie Murphy: Uh, she also was off-Broadway with lots of shows like Rent and Dogfight. She's been all over your small and big screens.

[3:35] Charlie Murphy: You may know her from Masters of Sex on TV, Smash for our Smash Heads out there.

[3:40] Charlie Murphy: Um, she's currently in American Crime Story and Be Positive on CBS right now.

[3:46] Charlie Murphy: Also in films like Top Five, Late Night, A Rainy Day in New York and Sex in the City, which I just included so that we can do some And Just Like That takes at the end of the pod.

[3:54] Charlie Murphy: We have to have some current takes for on that. Annaleigh, welcome. How are you doing today?

[3:58] Annaleigh Ashford: Hi, good morning, good morning.

[4:00] Annaleigh Ashford: I'm good. It's good to see you. I'm I'm so honored that you got up so early in the morning.

[4:04] Annaleigh Ashford: We're filming this morning of a on in New York and in LA.

[4:07] Annaleigh Ashford: I know it's even earlier, so thank you for coming. We'll forgive a froggy voice if it's happening.

[4:12] Annaleigh Ashford: Hey, it's all good. And also, you know, you like to like to start the day right and also get it in.

[4:17] Annaleigh Ashford: And starting the day with a podcast is right, if I have to ever say so.

[4:21] Charlie Murphy: Um, if you don't mind, let's take me back a little bit to when you started thinking about all this, which I know you did a lot of theater pretty early.

[4:28] Charlie Murphy: I'd love, especially for our listeners who are on the younger end, 15, 16, 17, what was that dream as you started thinking about college? You started thinking about, you know, your professional career.

[4:28] Charlie Murphy: What was that dream for kind of 16-year-old Annaleigh?

[4:40] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, you know, I had a really wonderful theater community in Denver where I grew up. So I was really um fortunate to experience what it felt like to um have acting be my career choice, even though I was, you know, even though I was only 15, 16, I was doing eight shows a week.

[5:00] Annaleigh Ashford: And so I know what that felt like. And I had all of these incredible Denver theater actors who were making a living being an actor.

[5:07] Annaleigh Ashford: You know, working and living and making ends meet, and also showing me how difficult it is to make ends meet as an actor.

[5:15] Annaleigh Ashford: But most of all, uh I learned so much about the etiquette of being in a dressing room and um and also again how challenging it is to have a family to choose this career path and um also the challenges of what it feels like to do a long run.

[5:37] Annaleigh Ashford: I didn't do extremely long runs, but I was doing runs that were three to five months at a time, you know, at a time. That's quite a long run for a young person.

[5:44] Annaleigh Ashford: You know, most people when they get to college, the shows that they've done, they've done some maybe a couple weeks of a community theater show or they've done a weekend.

[5:52] Annaleigh Ashford: Two weekends, maybe if it's yeah, maybe. But you know, I really knew what it felt like to do eight shows a week.

[5:57] Annaleigh Ashford: I knew what it felt like to have to need stamina. Um, I already knew kind of the beginnings of vocal health and body health.

[6:07] Annaleigh Ashford: So, anyways, and I also I got my equity card before I went to college, and I remember being told when you're an actor, it's like a job like anything else, and you deserve insurance and you deserve a pension.

[6:21] Annaleigh Ashford: And I always like I always kind of took that with me. On that note, um, you know, some people choose not to go to college and they go right to New York, and that sort of wasn't an option for me for a couple of reasons.

[6:32] Annaleigh Ashford: Number one, my mom is a teacher and an educator, and it was really um important to her and to me that I had some sort of degree in some way, and that's not important to some people, but for for me and my family, it was um it was it was something that I wanted to to explore, um not just to have like a certificate, but it was it was more about um I I ended up getting a liberal arts education and I, you know, wanted to take classes about things I was interested in, but really I just took out a liberal arts education because that's where I got in.

[7:07] Annaleigh Ashford: You know, like if you have the luxury of choosing between a conservatory and a liberal arts education, congratulations to you.

[7:13] Annaleigh Ashford: I didn't have the luxury of choosing, it was just where I got in.

[7:16] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, sometimes that's easier. But basically, I think the point of what I'm saying is as a young, young person, I knew that this was something that was a part of my heart and a part of my um journey.

[7:29] Annaleigh Ashford: And I I loved storytelling as a little person. And then uh I just knew that this this was gonna be my career.

[7:37] Annaleigh Ashford: And I had many people along the way tell me if there's something you like more, do that.

[7:42] Annaleigh Ashford: Which some people don't hear until they're just picking a college or they're in college.

[7:47] Annaleigh Ashford: And I really grappled with that question and there was just never any other answer, but I have to do this.

[7:53] Charlie Murphy: And was a big part for you of Marymount about NYC? Did you know from Denver I want to or from Colorado, I know for sure I want to go to New York City?

[8:02] Annaleigh Ashford: I think the only thing equal to my dream of being a storyteller was my dream of living in New York City.

[8:09] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, you know, I I have a love affair with that town that began before I can remember.

[8:16] Annaleigh Ashford: Like I don't remember not wanting to live in New York City.

[8:19] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, so that's definitely a piece of the puzzle for me.

[8:22] Annaleigh Ashford: And I think if I had just moved there, it would have been too overwhelming for me and I would have gotten caught up in the city.

[8:27] Annaleigh Ashford: That's a real thing that happens when you move to New York, it's so expensive to live there.

[8:33] Annaleigh Ashford: It's so hard to live there. Um, there's so many challenges that a lot of people in New York and LA, they moved to the city to do this thing they wanted to do, and then they get caught up in just trying to get by and trying to live life, and then they don't, you know, continue to pursue whatever that passion was.

[8:51] Charlie Murphy: And you did it all so young, right? I'm not sure I followed the exact timeline, but it seemed like you graduated both high school and college early. Is that true?

[8:57] Annaleigh Ashford: I did. My husband makes fun of me for that.

[9:00] Annaleigh Ashford: Too weird. Yeah, it's weird. But it was during a time when people didn't know very much about online courses, and I kind of sort of went, Oh, this is a thing I can do. I'm gonna do that.

[9:08] Annaleigh Ashford: I w I loved New York. I wanted to get there.

[9:11] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, and I had a great high school experience and I had a great time in in Denver, but it was I was already sort of ahead in my classes in terms of credits.

[9:23] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, and then when I was in college, the same thing sort of just happened on accident.

[9:28] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, I realized I had a lot of credits and um it just seemed like a great option for me.

[9:34] Annaleigh Ashford: The other thing that was sort of like odd about my particular experience is that I had an equity card.

[9:40] Annaleigh Ashford: So that for me was helpful graduating. At the same time, though, I auditioned all throughout college, which you know you're not really supposed to do.

[9:48] Annaleigh Ashford: But I also think it's good for you to do to understand how incredibly difficult it is.

[9:53] Annaleigh Ashford: I did not get one call back. My entire three years of auditioning.

[9:57] Annaleigh Ashford: Not I had one from an open dance call for Hairspray, and Jerry Mitchell was running the call, ironically, who gave me my first Broadway show.

[10:04] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, and who also directed Kinky Boots. Um, and he's such a like a you know, an important part of my life, so it's so like magical that he's the one person who called me back up with that whole, you know.

[10:18] Annaleigh Ashford: But still no booking there.

[10:19] Annaleigh Ashford: No, and also I had a terrible speaking of books, my book was wrong.

[10:24] Annaleigh Ashford: I didn't know I was singing the wrong songs, and I didn't start getting callbacks until I finally, um, it's kind of a long story, but my I'll just tell it.

[10:35] Annaleigh Ashford: I had we are showcase, no there were no agents or managers that called me in. None.

[10:41] Annaleigh Ashford: I got no feedback from any agents or managers. But there was um a choreographer named Larry Fuller.

[10:49] Annaleigh Ashford: He choreographed many famous Broadway shows, and he was mounting a production of Evita on the road, and he saw me in our um showcase and called me in for like the Ava Perone cover mistress.

[11:05] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, it was the first time I had material to learn for an audition.

[11:09] Annaleigh Ashford: I had sides and I got to learn, and it was like, oh, the doors opened, you know, and that casting director started bringing me in, and um he is actually that casting director's person who cast um which was then called Feeling Electric, but became Next to Normal.

[11:27] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, and I played the daughter Natalie in the Next to Normal production of The Nymph, which was the nymph was brand new.

[11:34] Annaleigh Ashford: And that's how I got my agent and my manager and like all the great casting directors in town also came to see it, and um that's kind of how doors open for me.

[11:44] Annaleigh Ashford: So that's just a you know, I think a lot of people listening, these kids, their book is probably better than mine was and still is.

[11:53] Annaleigh Ashford: That's always been a challenge for me.

[11:55] Charlie Murphy: Almost certainly of these MTCA students, they know their book is, you know, on point, of course.

[11:59] Charlie Murphy: It is a big deal. That's still always so cool to just to see that idea of like a choreographer who you might not have thought, oh, this person's necessarily gonna lead to this next person.

[12:07] Charlie Murphy: You don't always know the rungs on the ladder that that are gonna make you from one leap to another that are gonna get you to where you get to.

[12:12] Charlie Murphy: Um, but before we get too ahead to the career stuff, because I do want to get into that too.

[12:16] Charlie Murphy: Uh just uh I want I wanna kind of wonder about you said you're ahead in high school while also doing eight shows a week sometimes.

[12:22] Charlie Murphy: You know, it's like w what is that drive of like uh were you just precocious? Were you competitive?

[12:27] Charlie Murphy: Like what was the thing that made you be like, okay, yeah, I can do a professional show, I'm gonna get my equity card, I'm also gonna be an advanced whatever so that I have a chance to be ahead in high school and same thing in college.

[12:41] Annaleigh Ashford: My love of storytelling, you know, authentically, I always just knew how important it was for me to be a creator.

[12:51] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, also I think like the life of an act of actor is is constant juggling.

[12:51] Annaleigh Ashford: The life of an artist is constant juggling. Um at every level.

[13:02] Annaleigh Ashford: So when you're, you know, just starting out, you have to juggle your survival job and figure out how to also get to auditions and pick a survival job that allows you to be available to audition anytime.

[13:14] Annaleigh Ashford: That's a lot of juggling.

[13:15] Annaleigh Ashford: Um when you're doing a Broadway show and uh you're still maybe sometimes trying to make ends meet when you're still doing a Broadway show.

[13:25] Annaleigh Ashford: That's a real thing. People you don't make nearly as much money as you think you do on Broadway.

[13:31] Annaleigh Ashford: Um I just hosted an award show the other night and the hair makeup artists were um like totally shocked about how much you make on Broadway.

[13:40] Annaleigh Ashford: They were like, What? How do people pay their rent?

[13:43] Annaleigh Ashford: Um so there's a lot of juggling when you're doing eight shows a week as a professional.

[13:48] Annaleigh Ashford: And then in the other areas of the career too, like when you're opening a new Broadway show, previews are extremely strenuous.

[13:57] Annaleigh Ashford: You're going you're changing the show all day, putting it in at night, figuring out when to eat, making sure you're sleeping enough, taking care of yourself, and then if it's new show in the season, you're constantly doing press and trying to navigate uh no time in your life.

[14:15] Annaleigh Ashford: So I think for those of you out there who are in high school and in college and are like, this is so overwhelming. I don't want to be a bummer, but like get used to it. You have to start figuring out how to manage your time. You have to start you have to learn how to be respectful of other people's time. And you have to learn how to take care of yourself. Because while I do think that burnout is a real thing, you have to actually figure out how to navigate not burning out because that's gonna be a part of your future.

[14:42] Charlie Murphy: It's so true. And Annaleigh was right on time for this podcast, which probably isn't necessarily the most high on our list of press obligations that she has at the moment, but right on time, even though it's 7 a.m., you know, right hits that thing right on the dot, which is impressive. I think that is a skill set you've clearly cultivated that now works for you. And not all my students can pull that off at 16, 17 years old, or not necessarily like, I'm gonna show up on time for my coaching, even though you're like this is the most important thing in your life right now.

[15:08] Annaleigh Ashford: I mean, hey, there's two pieces to that answer. The first is like I messed up a Zoom time last week, like to a very important meeting, very important, and it was so embarrassing with like, oh my god, I'm mortified just talking about it. So, like we all make mistakes, it happens, but you shouldn't feel good about it. It's I feel good that I feel embarrassed about it because um Helen Mirren won a lifetime achievement award for um at the SAG Awards this last weekend, and I usually don't watch all the award shows, but I hosted one on Monday night, so I had to make sure that like I didn't repeat any jokes. And I'm so glad that I watched it because SAG Awards are a little bit different than all of the other awards because it's actors awarding other actors, and there's such an emphasis on the craft of acting and such beautiful talk of the craft of acting, and there's such a lovely emphasis on ensembles which I think is the most important and she said this amazing thing.

There's two two rules that I you know really tried to abide by be on time and don't act like a dick. You know and Helen Mirren gets to say fabulous things like that because she's Helen Mirren but those are the two most important things if you want to be anything but especially if you want to be an actor an artist. Be on time number one. And number two, be kind. If you don't behave well it always catches up with you and it's not cool. It's not cool. It's the opposite of cool to act rude or um ungracious or just always be open. It's a yes and world and if you don't know what that means go to improv class immediately. Go to improv class. Look it up.

[16:45] Charlie Murphy: But yeah yes and um let's before we get too deep into your um professional career because I got lots of questions about it. Just give me a little sum of um Marymount what the experience of Mary Manhattan Manhattan was for you in terms of it was three years of an experience I guess but give me that that whirlwind of a three years and whatever briefs brief summation.

[17:03] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah I mean it was many moons ago so I wouldn't preface it with that. But um I always try to tell people who are looking at schools whether it be for performing arts or not whatever you're interested in when you're you know figuring out what college you're gonna go to um I applied to a couple schools. I applied to Juilliard um I had to so I auditioned for Juilliard, Carnegie Mellon and Marymount. And the reason I went to Marymount is because it's the only place I got in. Um, and it was such a miracle for me because it was where I was supposed to go. And I really believe that no matter where you get in, it's where you're supposed to be, you know, and um so at my uh time in Marymount I auditioned as a BFA acting major, they didn't have a musical theater major.

[17:51] Charlie Murphy: Do they have a major now?

[17:53] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, so it's a full-blown major now. At the time they only had they had a minor, which was interesting, but I also wasn't for some reason like enrolled in the musical theater minor yet. So my first year I was um freshman BFA acting major. Um, and it was really important to me because I wanted to do musical theater. Obviously, I've been doing it my whole life and singing and dancing. I knew I was gonna be in New York City. It's the best city in the world to take dance and singing lessons, like literally the best. Um, and it was really I think it's really difficult to get acting classes anywhere. And I still think it's sort of hard in New York and LA. It's you have to find a group, you have to find a group of people, you know.

And it's sort of a word of mouth thing sometimes, and it's just more challenging to it's way easier to go to improv class, which I'd suggest than it is to find an acting class. So it was really important to me that I focused on acting at school.

[18:51] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, and my freshman year I had David Mold, who now runs the department. Um, and he was such a fantastic first year acting teacher, such a fantastic acting teacher, and I'm really grateful I had him. And then during my time there, when you're a BFA, you are with the 10 year faculty. But um, one of the great things about Marymount is because it's in New York City, the adjunct faculty was really diverse and um really tapped into both the academia land of and landscape of acting, but also a lot of them were working professionally, and so that's also I think something exciting that you get from your um from your adjunct faculty. And I think there's good to have a mix because um, you know, not everybody has a heart for teaching, and that doesn't mean that they can still be great teachers, um, but especially in the arts, you know, uh there's something special when somebody really has a heart for teaching and wants to share with you their knowledge, and um I had some great teachers, and uh I always was trying to learn from all of them because acting is technique goes like that.

You know, you're gonna pick and pull from all of the different techniques and pieces, and some things are really gonna match up with your spirit and your heart and your soul, and some things aren't. And so it was really important for me to experience them all.

[20:17] Annaleigh Ashford: So, for instance, for example, there was a teacher who's still at Marymount, her name's Ellen Ornstein. Um, and she at the time was uh really interested in Suzuki techniques, and so I took a Suzuki workshop with her over a summer that really blew my mind and made me really uh open my eyes to how much I like outside in and I like movement based. Um, and added another sort of like strand to my technique. There was a teacher that taught there at the time who ended up leaving and taught at Yale and then at NYU grad, both our grad programs. Her name's Faye Simpson, and she uh does the lucid body technique, and I never actually had her at Marymount, but I read her book and I loved her technique, and I really I didn't get to take her class, the stars never aligned for me.

But I used her technique from her book and I would ask everybody in her class about it, and now I work with her privately when I'm creating for a role. So basically what I'm saying is like you have to be hungry as a student. My husband and I did a play with James Earl Jones who is gonna have a theater named after him who's gonna have the court named after him which is magical I worked at that you're already anticipating you've already answered a question from our second game.

[21:28] Charlie Murphy: That was a trivia question that you were gonna get right.

[21:30] Annaleigh Ashford: Well I got it right yeah I worked at that theater too I would have loved to have been like I'm working at the James Earl Jones oh excuse me chills but um but he was a forever student he did a production of um Othello I mean at the in the park I think like in the late 70s or early 80s and he felt like he never got it which it means it was good like you should always feel like you never quite got it you know like there's always work to be done and he would come in on Thursday afternoons from time to time and have my husband Joe come in and meet with him and they Joe would read Iago and Jinx would read Othello and he'd work through pieces that he always kind of just felt like he never quite got so again forever the student even when you're 84 like what?

[22:21] Annaleigh Ashford: And you're a living legend. Our mutual friend Ryan Quinn who also was a podcast guest we al always talk about that like emblem of like the actor is always reaching right there's always just it's just always right out of grass. But it's not so unattainable that you can't touch it's like you almost are about to touch it always is sort of the place that you want to feel like you're in. I'd never have finished a show at the end of the night and been like I got it. Nailed it done. My work here is done. No I mean occasionally on camera, you're like, can you please use that take? That's a different feeling. But I feel like, especially on stage, that's just like it's a living, breathing organism that just grows from day to day.

[22:57] Annaleigh Ashford: It's so true. It feels like sometimes you like I was I feel like you touch it sometimes. You go, ooh, oh, something there. Like I hit it, but it doesn't mean like I have it. I don't, I'm not, I can't clutch it, but I sometimes you go, I I I touched on that. That felt like it was right. I actually like have a problem of never feeling like it's you know, occasionally people, you know. My uh when my husband does shows with me, he's like, Can you just be happy with the night? Like well, Annalie, I'd be honest, you do have a lot of work to do still. So that's what it is. That's just an objective sense. There's a lot to work on in your case.

[23:29] Charlie Murphy: Um, no, before we leave college, we have to play the first of our two games. This one you could not have prepared for, right or wrong, um, with answers. This is our college flashback game.

[23:34] Annaleigh Ashford: So the goal is you're gonna see how many questions about your college time you can answer within 60 seconds.

[23:42] Charlie Murphy: Okay. A score to beat is 14 by Josh Sagara and Sarah Salzberg have tied at 14.

[23:48] Annaleigh Ashford: Okay.

[23:48] Charlie Murphy: Um, which is quick. That's a lot of answers in in a couple seconds. We'll see how we do. Do you feel you understand the game and are prepared to play?

[23:55] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, let's hit it.

[23:56] Charlie Murphy: Okay, good luck. Megan's gonna put 60 seconds on the clock. All right, ready? Go.

[24:00] Charlie Murphy: Your favorite show you did in school?

[24:02] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh, uh Mystery of Edwin Drude.

[24:03] Charlie Murphy: Snack that got you through college.

[24:05] Annaleigh Ashford: Uh Rainbow Rolls.

[24:06] Charlie Murphy: Ever have a crush on a professor?

[24:08] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, I'm not telling.

[24:09] Charlie Murphy: Class you never used again in your life.

[24:11] Annaleigh Ashford: Um, oh, math.

[24:12] Charlie Murphy: Worst fashion choice in college.

[24:14] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh, so many not I uh not wearing not vintage clothes.

[24:19] Charlie Murphy: Most distracting part of going to college in New York City.

[24:21] Annaleigh Ashford: New York City.

[24:22] Charlie Murphy: Song that was blasting from your dorm room at school.

[24:24] Annaleigh Ashford: Um at that time, oh David Bowie.

[24:27] Charlie Murphy: What was on Broadway that you were dying to be in at that time?

[24:30] Annaleigh Ashford: Wicked.

[24:30] Charlie Murphy: Did you vote in college?

[24:32] Annaleigh Ashford: No.

[24:32] Charlie Murphy: Do you remember yet?

[24:33] Annaleigh Ashford: Yes, I did.

[24:34] Charlie Murphy: Well, good.

[24:34] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah.

[24:34] Charlie Murphy: Do you remember your school mascot?

[24:36] Annaleigh Ashford: Of the gro the Gryffindor something.

[24:38] Charlie Murphy: They're Gryffindors.

[24:39] Annaleigh Ashford: And we're like, what are they?

[24:40] Charlie Murphy: Were you a messy roommate or clean roommate?

[24:42] Annaleigh Ashford: Clean, messy. My on my desk, but clean everywhere else.

[24:44] Charlie Murphy: What's something on your dorm room wall that you remember?

[24:47] Annaleigh Ashford: A poster of Liza Manelli.

[24:48] Charlie Murphy: Did you TA any classes?

[24:50] Annaleigh Ashford: No.

[24:51] Charlie Murphy: Very good.

[24:52] Annaleigh Ashford: Very good.

[24:53] Charlie Murphy: How many I get?

[24:53] Annaleigh Ashford: That was close.

[24:54] Charlie Murphy: That was a lot, Megan.

[24:56] Annaleigh Ashford: We got close.

[24:56] Charlie Murphy: It was 13.

[24:57] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh, not long.

[24:58] Charlie Murphy: I'm so consolidative.

[25:00] Annaleigh Ashford: You lose some points for like some answers you gave 16 different answers for.

[25:03] Charlie Murphy: You said yes and no. Messy and clean. Do I didn't vote? But yes, I voted once.

[25:07] Annaleigh Ashford: Like, what is it?

[25:07] Charlie Murphy: No, try to be honest.

[25:08] Annaleigh Ashford: I was I was thinking like, because I couldn't vote in Colorado, and then I was like, oh, I was there for major election. I forgot. I thought I didn't.

[25:14] Charlie Murphy: You're 18, exactly.

[25:17] Annaleigh Ashford: But I do think also our instinct in these games is always to lie. Just to say something quick, I'm gonna say the first thing as opposed to the truthful thing. At least I don't know why.

[25:24] Charlie Murphy: I lied in when I did it.

[25:25] Annaleigh Ashford: I told the truth.

[25:26] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, that's true. You went back and take so truth.

[25:28] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, Megan lied all the time.

[25:29] Charlie Murphy: Um what was the one thing? New York City, just New York City itself was distracting.

[25:34] Annaleigh Ashford: You mean all of it?

[25:34] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[25:35] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah. I when you go to college in New York City, when you live in New York, I mean it's really it's just challenging. Like I remember that first semester, it was like, whoa. And I had like five, I always had like five jobs, always. Or it was you know, some people are in a position where you know their families are able to help them navigate the financial situation that is being a college student and like and when you're in New York City, it's really expensive.

[26:01] Annaleigh Ashford: When you're anywhere, um, so I had to have a job all the time. I my you know, my family couldn't help me. They they absolutely help me, but yeah, I don't want to sound like that, but um but I'm also proud of that. I think you should even if your parents are helping you financially while you're in college, get a job because you need to start learning how to balance.

[26:23] Charlie Murphy: So true.

[26:23] Annaleigh Ashford: You need to get a job, you get a job, students. Yes, I do, I really believe in that. I really believe in it because I think if you're gonna be in this business, you need to know what it feels like to juggle. Like I could just say it over and over again. But the distraction for you is instead of that job being like at a campus shop or whatever, that job is like with New York City professional college.

[26:42] Charlie Murphy: Oh my gosh.

[26:43] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah. I worked at a law firm across the street from the dorms as a receptionist. Um babysat always. I worked at the Peninsula Spa in the Peninsula Hotel my freshman year. Um I worked at this amazing place called Craft Studio, who my friend from college now runs and owns. Which is great and they kept it going through the pandemic, thank God. Um I worked at Fiorello's, this restaurant by Lincoln Center. I mean, the list I could go on and I worked at Keel's at the Bloomingdales Counter. Uh too. I worked at Bergdorf Goodman selling perfume. You know, uh so many places. But and then also New York City, like you need to also be a human and love love. And I was I was a go-go dancer for glam rock parties at night.

[27:28] Annaleigh Ashford: Um all this fun stuff. So yes, it was distracting, but also that's like part of it. You gotta like Yes. Distracted is maybe a word to use, but I would say infused by this.

[27:40] Charlie Murphy: Infused, yeah.

[27:41] Annaleigh Ashford: There's not uh some places you would not be able to be a go go dancer at night, depending where you're going to college. It just needs to be a good idea.

[27:46] Charlie Murphy: I would say I would say 95% of the places.

[27:50] Annaleigh Ashford: And like a proper feel and also not like not that kind of go-go dancing. I was doing like performance art.

[27:56] Charlie Murphy: It was performance art.

[27:57] Annaleigh Ashford: I was with all these amazing performance artists. So there you go.

[28:00] Charlie Murphy: So cool. Um, my last question about school, and then we'll get really deep into the career, is just uh what is the biggest concept or your a class or something that you took away from these years that you feel like you really are using as a professional?

[28:12] Annaleigh Ashford: You go, maybe even something that you go, I didn't know that I was gonna use this so often, but it now it is coming up a lot in my work, or you know, there are times when I go, I'm so grateful that I did learn that. The one thing that I'm so grateful for as I look back is I truly have a foundation of what I was talking about before of all of these different ways to approach my craft. And I have an absolute foundation of craft and an appreciation for craft. I also, you know, not every professor thought I was the best actor in the room, and that's a good thing because that's gonna happen to you for the rest of your career. So I had some struggles and I think knocking of ego, which was extremely important, and then I also had some people who were extremely supportive of me as an artist.

So I had both, and I think that's important. Totally, but most of all I would say I have true foundation of craft. I still use, I mean, it's the basics, but I still use them today. There's still like three books that I always have sort of by my bedside table when I'm working on a role. Acting is acting, is acting. And I had them back in college as well. It's funny because I asked this question of basically all of our guests or most of our guests asked some version of this question. And the example I always think of is this is before I knew you from Adam, but seeing you and Will Brill in You Can't Take It With You, Wilbro was a classmate of mine, and watching Will like basically just do our commedia dell'arte class on stage.

Like it was like I was like, I know that clown. I know that stuff. But I'm like, and I would have thought at the time, you'll never use that in life. Like it's just like it felt like this ridiculous physical comedy that was like, what when would that ever get used? And then here it is, fully, you know, on a Broadway stage at the James Earl Jones Theater, or with James Earl Jones now, theater named after him. Too cool, just too cool.

[30:09] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, you'll use everything if you listen and you apply, you know what I mean? And then some of this, you know, I think I've used everything, and then I keep trying to learn more. So it's sort of like, you know, just always be a forever student.

[30:21] Charlie Murphy: Such good advice. Let's take a short break. We'll get some ads rolling, and then on the second half, we'll really dive into your professional life and a couple specific topics.

[30:32] Charlie Murphy: We are back with Annaleigh Ashford. So, Annaleigh, you now have graduated, you're still like 14 years old because you've graduated high school and college, and you're, you know, still a tween.

[30:43] Annaleigh Ashford: I really was I was 19, which I my husband's always like, could you tell us enough? It's unbelievable. It's just like it was an accident, it's really not that big of a I'm not really I like it's it's really not that big of a it's impressive and and weird.

[30:56] Charlie Murphy: I was just really tired. My adrenals are still worn out.

[30:59] Annaleigh Ashford: I can see that, yeah. True. You've now graduated you tell us a little bit about some the journey toward getting an agent. Um just tell tell us a little so you graduate without an agent now, so you're you're doing your first couple auditions, you know.

[31:11] Annaleigh Ashford: That's where you said you mentioned that of you thing. Uh how does that now that journey happen toward now you are fully represented and you're feeling like you're in a that successful place?

[31:19] Annaleigh Ashford: Well, I mean, I it's success is I think an elusive sort of word in this business because you there's always gonna be like the balance between art and commerce that you have to struggle with. Um on like so many different levels. But I will say that like having a job always feels like you kind of have both of that balance going on, you know, you're getting to be creative and you're making money for it. It's like, oh, magic, it happened. So, anyways, I would say that what happened for me was unusual. Um, and you know, sometimes when younger people are like, Well, how can I get an agent? I'm like, it's just different for every person, and it's different for every six months. And the business is different every six months, especially right now. We're in such a time of question marks. So just keep doing you and just keep learning and building your craft. And I think sometimes that's the way it happens.

[32:21] Charlie Murphy: And it seemed like for you, it was not a long period of time between college and agent, right? Or college, I should say college and your first um a couple successful shows started happening, but then maybe a longer period of time in that like where you're building a Broadway resume and some exciting success is happening, but it's not yet the level that it will it will reach. Right?

[32:43] Annaleigh Ashford: It seems like there is one of our previous guests talked about like the 10 years it takes to become an overnight sensation. Yes. It seems like there was a nice building time where you could see now that you look back, go, oh, I see how this built to this, but I I wouldn't have known, oh, that's gonna lead to Tony Award, or that's gonna lead to amazing TV roles, or you know, it seemed like there was a a nice chunk of time where you were just doing your thing.

[33:02] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, you know, it's it's a constant up and down too. So you have to like know what it feels like to be on the mountain because the valley is coming. You know, there's no way that you can have a mountain without a valley in this business. So yes, yes, I I I was able to um, you know, when I f I talked earlier about getting sides and getting to do material from the show that totally changed my entire audition experience. But I always like to tell people, yes, I got an agent like a couple months after I graduated from school. Um but I but I had been auditioning for like three years and getting nothing. So I knew what it felt like to have rejection in like a major way. But I think a lot of kids who are coming out of school they don't know, and it can take a couple years, and then they're like, What is this? Um and I also think it's complicated for kids who get an agent right out of school and start booking things too, because that could be miss, you know that can be confusing as well.

[34:01] Annaleigh Ashford: So I did a production of Next to Normal that was called Feeling Electric. And from that, um I luckily lots of people in the industry saw it and I had no idea, which is great. It's good to know who's not in the audience. I prefer not knowing. Some people like to know. I still don't like to know who's in the audience. And from that, um I auditioned for pretty much everything that was on Broadway at the time and I was getting close to a couple things and there was an opening for a Glinda understudy um on the road for Wicked, and there was um an alphabet standby, and I remember my final callback, they were kind of figuring out where they were putting alphabet and Glinda covers. And I was about to leave and Steven Arimas popped out and he was like, Hey, do you know the Alba music?

And I was like, Yeah, I kinda I can do defined gravity. So I came in and sang the end of fine gravity and I was like, Ah, yeah. And I remember um Joe Mantello like put his head on in his hands and laughed and he went, Well, she's a Glinda. Um which is really funny. But it was lovely that like at that point in my career that they were willing to be like, Yeah, can you do that? 'Cause nobody knew me yet, you know. They were like, you know, you can sing that. So And and you also talk about yes ending, right? You were like, Yeah, oh let's do it. I'm I'm gonna walk in this room and do my best. Oh, I yes and yeah. And later on, I ended up playing Maureen and Rent, like, you know, years down the road.

And I remember being people being like, But you play play Glinda, and I was like, Yes, and like whatever. You can um so many ways. Uh so I did played uh Glinda and Wicked on the Road, uh covering, which was fantastic. Stephanie Bloch was um Alphabet at the time, and Kendra Castlebaum was Glinda, and they were fantastic. And then when I was on the road, I auditioned for Legally Blonde, got the role of Margo, and I covered um I covered Laura Bell, but I always knew that Becky Goldsbig was like I did too much with that dog. I was like, Oh, I'll never go on, you know. I went on once, which was a crazy blown out of a canon experience. Um, right before I went to go actually play Glinda on Broadway.

So after I did um Legally Blonde, then I got to play Glinda and Wicked on Broadway for almost a year. Me and Stephanie Bloch did it together. Um, and then I went to Chicago and I did it with Lisa Brescia and then D. Rossioli, and um had a great time there, and then I couldn't get a job. Couldn't get a job. Everybody would just kind of um was was not as open to seeing me because they were like, Well, she just plays dumb blondes, she played Margot and she played Glinda. And it was at that time, there's a lot of shows that they wouldn't even see me for. I couldn't even get an audition. Um, so I was babysitting to make ends meet. Um, I remember somebody being like, Well, where what happened to your Glinda money?

I was like, I live in New York City, and also like you don't make what people think you make on Broadway. It was just a really like awful thing. So I mean the business said it to me. And it was very humbling to I remember babysitting for kids who'd actually seen me play Glinda on Broadway. Um, and uh then I did hair. I was in, I was a replacement. I covered, I played uh Jeannie. I replaced KC Sheik. Um, and I knew like a couple weeks into it that we were gonna close pretty soon after that. You can tell when you look out in the house on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

[37:29] Annaleigh Ashford: And you think it was because of you specifically? It was me. It's all the work that you still have to do for yourself. That's what we did. I closed it. That's right. The joke I gave Elizabeth auditioned for what they were uh maybe it was a hair movie. I don't know if it was a hair movie or it was a new show, but it was like the day of the pandemic or whatever, and like the day of her auditions, they they decided to pull it. It was that live production of hair or whatever. And I was like, that's how bad your audition was. I forgot that was gonna happen. That's so good. You walked in from an audition room and they're like, let's just not even do the show. They were like, we can't do it. We can't do it. Not if that's what a business gonna bring through this. I know. But yes.

[38:00] Charlie Murphy: And then what was what was so for you? I know it may not feel like there was one big break because it's sort of a series of breaks, but was it Kinky Boots in the Tony Nom? Was it Masters of Sex? In terms of what was the moment when you go, oh, okay, there's a little bit of a plateau where hopefully I'm not gonna be going back to babysitting or I'm not, you know, where did it feel like this happened?

[38:17] Annaleigh Ashford: Uh yeah, honestly, I never really feel like, oh, it's happening because of that time. It's definitely happening right now. Like right now it is happening. You're the star of a CBS show right now. There may not be Glinda Money. I know there's B Positive Money. I know that for sure. Not gonna count your wallet, but I know that's true. That's another thing. I never ever some people have made grossly more than I ever thought they would, and some people have made so much less than I ever imagined they would. So that's one thing. Joey and I always are like, Well, you can never count on what you think somebody makes. You never can even guess. Um so but what I would say is after hair, I went through another really quiet time.

And during that time, I was doing a lot of readings and workshops of shows that went to Broadway without me. So I played um the role that Carrie Butler played in uh um I'm blanking. Catch Me If You Can. I almost said get it while you can't. So I played that. I played Campbell and Bring It On. I played Wednesday in The Addams Family. Um I played there's like four more that I'm thinking of right now. Like I did a version of Carrie, I did all these things. You keep doing the readings and the people keep taking the roles. The other people continue on to Broadway with the roles, which is hard. Also, I was too old for Natalie in Next to Normal, and I was like 23. They were like, You're too old. So that was that was a good thing to learn to be told you're too old as a woman early on in your career.

[39:46] Charlie Murphy: Well, at this point, you were like 10 years out of college, so you know.

[39:49] Annaleigh Ashford: Well, at that point I was like fresh I well, I love you. You just made a joke that I didn't get because it's early. Yeah, it's like um but then at the then I still was like going through this major lull at at twenty-four twenty-five, which is really young to be like, Am I gonna work again? You know, like having those moments. And then um luckily and gratefully, Michael Grife cast me in Rent and I was sort of like a surprise choice to play Maureen. Um, but he wanted to he was reimagining the show. He brought me in like eight times. Um they really were like really wanted to make sure. But he he was like let me be really bold and I made some wild big choices. And that really helped people see me in a different light.

And um that really and I was doing Kinky Boots, the readings at the same time. Um and then after that I I got the pilot of uh Masters of Sex. Um and while I was waiting to see if it got picked up I did Dogfight and we were waiting to see if Kinky Boots was gonna go and I it's not a secret. This is a kind of a fun story. When I was doing Kinky Boots people, you know when you're doing a new show people question if you're the right person and sometimes they try other people out and that's just part of it and I was so used to it. So I was like well I'll never continue on with Kinky Boots because I'll pick somebody else when it goes to Broadway because that's what happens with me. And I had a fine I had to go in one final time for it because God love her Cindy Lapper just didn't know if I was the right person.

She'd never done a musical before and she didn't you know she I should she should have been questioning if I was the right person but I guess the last time I went in she was like well I guess she's our Lauren you know like and because they were all like are you gonna say yes because everybody was saying yes to me. Cindy was the last person that had to say yes. Um and now we're you know buds and great friends. But um but thankfully I remember on opening night of Kinky Boots I looked out into the audience and Cheetah Rivera gave me a thumbs up like she pointed and repointed to me and was like good job. Doing great which was like I still have some notes for myself, but yes, thank you. I did, but um, I didn't I also never, you know, always have a note for myself. But it that was sort of like a miracle moment for me, and it also was like, Oh, this is the one show that I got to continue on with, and it was the right one.

[42:17] Annaleigh Ashford: It was the one that was meant to be for me. And then from there, you know, I had pretty pretty steady work. I worked on Masters of Sex, and then when I would have hiatuses, I would get to come back and do a play. I did You Can't Take It With You, um, which I never would have expected would have been such a um a I never thought I was gonna have you know recognition the way that I did for that show, which was so lovely. But also my intention for shows is never that, you know, it should never be that. And then I did Sylvia, and then um I got pregnant with my son, and I while I was like six months pregnant, I got the call for Sunny the Park with George the concert. I had seen an uh that that Jake was gonna do it, Jake Gyllenhaal, and I was like, God, I'd love to play that part, but nobody will ever pick me.

And then they called, which was shocking. Um, and so I did the concert when my son was six weeks old, which was insane. And um, I got really sick the night before the concert. I got mastitis, which is oh yes, like the ducts of your boobs when you're nursing get clogged and infected. We know it well. So I that happened, and you you get the flu, basically. You have a fever and you're achy, and I got a cold, and I remember just being like, God, go ahead of me and stay after me for this masterpiece I'm about to work on. And I got through that week and then we did the production of it. And then I kind of had a quieter time after that. I did some movies here and there and some pilots. Um, but it was kind of a quieter I Joe and I did Shakespeare in the park together.

Um, but I got to spend a lot of time with my little boy in the next couple years, and it was honestly like just a little bit of a quieter time, you know, it's it just happens. That's why I'm saying there's always going to be a valley to the peak. So while I'm working consistently now and I am so grateful for that, I'm always trying to be creative in spirit and always trying to now as an artist I'm like writing and I want to start directing and that's another piece of my creative spirit that I want to start exploring. Um I think it's important to keep that going, especially when you have quieter times. Just always keep making and creating.

[44:29] Charlie Murphy: I love that advice, but we cannot just yada yada the Tony Award. Um just in terms of like it does put you in such an elite category of human beings. Like think about there's only been so many Tony Awards and only so many actors and actresses each year who win it. Like what was that experience like was that a lifelong dream for you growing up in Colorado? What what was it like to actually you know get the statue and give the speech and and do the whole thing.

[44:51] Annaleigh Ashford: Well it's you know it's there's two pieces of it. The first is it's overwhelming. I it's it's a it sits next to a unicorn in our bookshelf because it's it's a magical unicorn. And then the other piece of that is mine says on it you can't take it with you which is I think so magical because you literally can't take it with you. And that always puts it in perspective. It's this incredible honor. It's an incredible um representation of not just your hard work but all of the people in your life that contributed to your hard work. So my parents and my family and my grandma and grandpa who would help drive me to the Country Dinner Playhouse, all of those incredible Denver actors who taught me about theater etiquette and how to behave in a dressing room and how to show up on time and how to be kind to work with and how never to give notes to another actor and all of these wonderful things they taught me.

So it's a representation of them. Um it's a representation of some of them who just didn't want to live the New York life, but who are great artists and who had if they had decided to take a different path, probably would have won some fabulous awards for their work as artists. Um I think it's but then again, you know, it's it you can't take it with you, and you can't let it think you're more magical than you are because there's always tomorrow and you have still have to do it tomorrow, you know. So I feel really balanced in the way that I or at least try to feel really balanced in the way that I approach it. But man oh man, is it an honor and it's a miracle, you know?

[46:24] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, of course ever you can't be a a person in the arts and not dream of being like I want to think so and so and so and so. But then when it really happens, it's more of like it's um there's it's a you know, when people are like, Oh my god, they thank the people in the category at a certain level, like art is art, and like you can't compare paintings, you can't compare performances. Uh-huh. You know, like it's sometimes you're like, How can we award this and not award that? You know, like like the year that Mark Rylance and Joe Mantello were up. Mark Rylance had done uh Jerusalem and um Joe had done um the heart. Yeah. Yeah, you were like, How are we comparing this like talk about apples and oranges?

They're both delicious, fruits. Like, how are we comparing this? You know, that said your work was fantastic in that show. And I didn't know you had Allah, and I was just like, Oh my god, she's so good. Like, you know, I came to watch Will, and I'm like, this girl is incredible. Will was great too. But hey, they were so good in the show. Physical comedy specificity, all of that stuff was just like that's how we created everything, and Scott Ellis was a magical director. But all that stuff I learned in college, I continued and deepened and kept going. You know, what do you want? How are you gonna get it?

[47:36] Annaleigh Ashford: You're segueing perfectly to my next question because I want to ask you about comedy a little bit. Um in that I think of course people know you as a wonderful dramatic actress, but I think you are thought of someone who's incredibly funny on stage and now on your TV screens, right? Uh is that something that you felt like you just learned in school? Do you feel like was it was that innate for you? Was was 12-year-old Annaleigh also like really funny? Like uh what was it that you feel like allows you to be able to walk in a room and just be funny? Especially with stuff like you're hosting award shows now, right? So it's not even for you just about uh uh yes, I think you're a great comedic actress. You know, of course you're not like a stand-up comic, but but it's like you also have the ability just to be fun. Just feels like you can flip a light switch on and be funny. Where does that come from? How do you do that if that's true?

[48:18] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh my god, you're so funny and sweet. Uh well here here's how I feel about comedy. Um I think that it's harder than drama. And you know, it's an old thing that we say, but it's true. Because you have to be the stakes have to be even higher for it to be funny. And it has to be even more real to be funny. Like we can see through you when you're doing comedy. If it's not honest, we're not gonna laugh. So that's there's lots of technique there and um lots of craft. And then when it comes to like funny bone, we all know people either have a funny bone or they don't, you know, like what's your sense of humor? What's your sense of musicality in the language? What's uh what's your feel for a laugh? And I don't I don't know how to explain it, but like ever since I was a little little person, I've always been drawn to like uh I've been drawn to the pursuit of the laugh.

Uh-huh. Um, like when I was a little girl, I I mean like a fucking four or five. I don't know why, but I knew all of the Saturday Night Live characters, so I would be like, Can I do my characters at parties? Uh-huh. Like when I was four years old, I'd get up and do Linda Richmond and Wayne's World. Annaleigh can do some characters now. Yes, and I'd wait for my laughs. Like I understood the rhythm of a laugh. You know, there's like a one I understood one, two, three before I could explain it with words. Uh-huh. Um there's there's a science to laugh, and there's a science to comedy, and then there's that I think that's 90% of comedy is preparation, stakes, um, science, and then there's that 10% of magic.

And I always kind of leave that in my in my when I'm creating a role on stage, I like to have like 10% of my night be in the space of improv. Like I don't know what's gonna happen. Um and I'll you don't never know what's gonna happen, and you're always present, but I like to leave 10% not in a place of science, like uh, and you're always figuring it out and discovering it, but if it's not based in those foundations of what do you want, how are you gonna get it? You know, that's clowning one oh one. You're gonna trip over the curb, but you didn't know you were gonna trip. And the surprise, the fact that you're surprised is what we laugh at, and then your reaction to it is what keeps the laugh growing and building, and that's where the role happens, the rolling of the laugh. So those are my thoughts on comedy.

[50:54] Charlie Murphy: That's great, some great thoughts. We talked a little bit about the wonderful Joe Tapper, MTCA's own Joe Tapper. Um, and just you know, one of my favorite people on earth, and and what that relationship has been. I I'd love to just to talk a little bit about like so as you're achieving this incredible success, especially in the same industry as a partner who you know is also pursuing this career, and obviously Joe's had a great career as well. But is there ever like awkwardness or or guilt there as like your career success might ask sacrifices of him, you know, realizing now we gotta move here or now we gotta go do this thing, or you know, how how do how do you navigate that in a relationship with someone else who's also in the industry?

[51:31] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, you know, we both um have had times where one is working and the other is not. Um, like when I was talking about that time after uh after I did um Sunday in the Park with George, we did um Midsummer in the Park together, which was magical, and then I did some movies here and there and some TV here and there, but he worked quite consistently at the public, and um he's kind of doing play after play, and I was home a lot with Jack, which was magical. Um, but basically we kind of take turns supporting the other when they're working. Um, and and one of the things that's kind of special is we both know that juggle and that balance. Um, and so we're able to support the other. So, you know, especially like we both know what it feels like to be in tech and how stressful it is physically and emotionally, and you know, we we're able to support each other that way, but you know, there's such an incredible emotional component to having the life of an actor, and I think both of us have really learned how to support the other in that world because it's really challenging.

[52:37] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Before I move on from Joe, I need to know if you have a Joe impression. I'm especially looking for like a Joe impression from a coaching. If you ever like from the other room heard Joe coaching, like Elizabeth has like heard me do enough of these initial consult follow-ups that she's like, she can do the whole thing now. She's like, I'm ready. She does the impressions of me. She's my favorite one-liners. Is there like a juicy metaphor or an aphorism that Joe often uses? Give it to me. I need it.

[53:00] Annaleigh Ashford: Well, he's like very loud. Sometimes I'm like, I think you're blowing out their headphones. You know, and I'm like, really? Didn't need to be that loud. He's like, Yay, how's it going? Drinking, he always has a cup of coffee. Sometimes I make it when it pour over. Um, and how's it going? So let's get in. What's been going on? And then he says, and this is a really beautiful thing. I think a great acting teacher maybe said it to him, but he's always like, champions adjust. You got in there and you adjust it. Champions adjust. And I mean, it is a perfect thing for an actor. I mean, we all should play it in life, but like, and talk about this last couple years. We've all had to learn how to pivot.

Ain't that the truth? Champions adjust. Champions adjust, and something you've been doing your whole career, clearly, um, after every night and every role. I love it. Um, maybe one my one last question before the game, um, it's maybe a little bit of an embarrassing one for you. Is like you are someone that I I hear often from our students, like, I want to be her when I grow up, right? Which I think is like distinct from like plenty of people be like, I want that career, I'd love to do that show, right? But like people like want to be you as a human being, like they just think you would be a great person to be. First, is that something that you feel? Like, do you feel that that adoration and that from from young people?

And if so, is there any kind of I don't know, is there any sense of burden or expectation in like the way you now live your somewhat public life, knowing, you know, that there might be young people who are looking up and going, I want to be like Annaleigh?

[54:31] Annaleigh Ashford: Well that's the nicest compliment ever. That's so so sweet. Um well, hey, I I think that not very many people have been like, I want to be just in my favorite to me they're like, I want to be so it's really sweet. But if if somebody told me that I'd be like that is the kindest and the sweetest and I guess I w everything we've been talking about is really just sort of shaped, you know, who I am on the day to day and I think like the the humbling moments are the best ones even though they hurt the most and they're the hardest. Um but I think they kind of keep it in balance. This this career life world and this business is extremely out of balance. So like I guess my advice to people is that's I that's so kind.

And if I could share anything that is helpful I would say don't look side to side in the race because and also it's not a race. And just look straight ahead. Like don't compare yourself to other people and just try to live by the words of the great dame Helen Mirren be on time and try not to be a dick.

[55:39] Charlie Murphy: I love it. Um okay let's get to our second game which was speaking of the wonderful Joe Tapper um we do play a unique game with each of our artists. I try to create a game sort for for an artist and I asked Joe would you prefer a kind of silly improv game or like a competitive trivia game and he made a selection. So this is our pre game newlywed style game is what do you think Joe picked for you?

[56:00] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh gosh. He probably said I'm competitive.

[56:03] Annaleigh Ashford: That's a hundred percent right.

[56:04] Annaleigh Ashford: A competitive trivia game.

[56:05] Annaleigh Ashford: I hope that's what you want.

[56:06] Annaleigh Ashford: I did actually consider doing a newlywed style game with you, but I thought it would be too embarrassing if Joe doesn't get to be part of it too to like you know make him give answers and all the things.

[56:14] Annaleigh Ashford: But also like he sucks because I'd be better at an improv game.

[56:18] Charlie Murphy: Correct.

[56:18] Annaleigh Ashford: I was shocked that that was the answer.

[56:20] Charlie Murphy: I was like, really? I was ready to make a silly improv game.

[56:22] Annaleigh Ashford: But we have trivia game.

[56:23] Charlie Murphy: This is a game I'm very proud of. We play unique games, but I may have to bring this back because I really like it.

[56:27] Charlie Murphy: This is six degrees of Annaleigh Ashford.

[56:29] Annaleigh Ashford: Okay.

[56:30] Charlie Murphy: So I'm gonna ask you some Jeopardy style questions about some of your colleagues throughout your illustrious career. You've already gotten one of the little previews of what the James Earl Jones theater is gonna be.

[56:36] Annaleigh Ashford: Okay.

[56:40] Charlie Murphy: So these are simple, trivia style questions. You may answer in the form of what is or who is if you want bonus points in terms of the jeopardy of it all.

[56:48] Charlie Murphy: Okay. So I'll give you the first question, which you already know was in exciting recent news. Your Can't Take It with You castmate Jerome James Well Joan was just announced as having this Broadway theater named after him. What is the court theater?

[56:58] Annaleigh Ashford: 100% correct.

[57:00] Charlie Murphy: Because that was a warm-up question since you already got it. They're gonna get harder. The questions are gonna get harder. Jake Gyllenhaal, your Sunday in the Park with George co-star, starred in this 2001 cult classic movie, which was later turned into a cult classic musical by Cinco Paul and Ken Dario.

[57:18] Annaleigh Ashford: Cult classic music movie from 2001. Is it so? Oh, oh, oh, it's the it's a bubble boy.

[57:22] Charlie Murphy: What the what is it?

[57:25] Annaleigh Ashford: What is Bubble Boy?

[57:26] Charlie Murphy: We're looking for what is Bubble Boy.

[57:30] Annaleigh Ashford: Two for two, you're doing great.

[57:31] Charlie Murphy: No, you did great.

[57:32] Annaleigh Ashford: Okay.

[57:33] Charlie Murphy: Thomas Middleditch, your current co-star of Be Positive, played a small role in this 2018 movie named after a children's game.

[57:44] Annaleigh Ashford: Children's game. Oh, shocks. Can you give me a hint?

[57:50] Charlie Murphy: Um, the game involves running.

[57:54] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh no. Oh no.

[57:56] Charlie Murphy: Hide and seek.

[57:58] Annaleigh Ashford: I don't know.

[57:59] Charlie Murphy: Great guess. That's a great guess. It would have been what is hide and seek. But it's what is tag?

[58:03] Annaleigh Ashford: There's a movie called Tag.

[58:05] Charlie Murphy: Good for you, Thomas. The questions are getting harder. Michael Sheen, star in Master of Sex, made his Globe debut while he was still a student studying at which prestigious drama school.

[58:18] Annaleigh Ashford: I should say at this prestigious drama school to follow the Jeopardy.

[58:21] Charlie Murphy: Uh, what is RADA?

[58:22] Annaleigh Ashford: What is RADA is correct.

[58:24] Charlie Murphy: You're doing fantastically, Annaleigh.

[58:26] Annaleigh Ashford: Josh Sagara, co-star in Dogfight and a Mapping College Audition guest, bared it all for Amy Schumer in this 2015 comedy, also starring Bill Hader and LeBron James.

[58:37] Charlie Murphy: What is Trainwreck?

[58:39] Annaleigh Ashford: What is Trainwreck is correct.

[58:40] Charlie Murphy: You're doing. He was so good in that movie.

[58:41] Annaleigh Ashford: He was super funny.

[58:43] Charlie Murphy: He really was. I thought that was funny. Okay. Sarah Paulson, co-star in American Crime Story, previously starred in this short-lived NBC so-called comedy-drama series, which might in fact be aptly described as a drama about a comedy.

[58:58] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh my gosh, I don't know. But I know I've seen pictures of it.

[59:02] Charlie Murphy: What is Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip?

[59:04] Annaleigh Ashford: The worst thing.

[59:07] Charlie Murphy: I was just gonna say, if you said it was Aaron Sorkin, I forgot she was in it.

[59:10] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, she was. I mean, she was great. The show was not.

[59:14] Charlie Murphy: It wasn't Aaron's best work. We're gonna be we're big fans, but it wasn't his best work. Will Brill, your You Can't Take It with You co-star, and my former classmate, stars in this Netflix mystery series, which would not be an acceptable two-letter word in Scrabble.

[59:29] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh, um wait, it's the one where they like go like this.

[59:34] Charlie Murphy: That is not an acceptable answer.

[59:35] Annaleigh Ashford: What where they go like this will not give you a lot of.

[59:37] Charlie Murphy: I can't think of the name of it right now. Beep. O A.

[59:41] Annaleigh Ashford: What is the OA?

[59:42] Charlie Murphy: Oh, what is the OA? Okay, okay.

[59:44] Charlie Murphy: Timothy Chalamet, a co-star in A Rainy Day in New York, in his breakout year of 2017, was in the films Call Me by Your Name, Hot Summer Nights, Hostels, and what Best Picture Oscar-nominated films.

[59:59] Annaleigh Ashford: Um that that movie that Beanie was in too. Um and Saoirse Ronan and what's it uh okay, uh it's called like Meadowlark or something.

[1:00:12] Charlie Murphy: Please Ladybird, Ladybird, what is Ladybird?

[1:00:17] Annaleigh Ashford: It's called like Meadowlark.

[1:00:19] Charlie Murphy: The answer is Ladybird.

[1:00:20] Annaleigh Ashford: Fantastic.

[1:00:21] Charlie Murphy: It's like Lady Bird, Metalark.

[1:00:23] Annaleigh Ashford: Totally makes sense. You did fantastically in that game. I can't believe I was I was gonna be impressed if you got more than half and you got like 75%.

[1:00:29] Charlie Murphy: Okay, great. I thought that was hard. Because some of them were like, I tag, I would have never gotten that.

[1:00:35] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh, that was hard. I I I don't know. I tried to make some of them so they weren't just all I didn't know the level.

[1:00:39] Charlie Murphy: Joe said you were gonna be competitive. We didn't know the level of it all. Um, I'd love to just wrap up with, you know, in your experience working with and kind of teaching and um, you know, anytime you're greeting young artists today, I'd love to kind of talk a little bit about like what do you feel like they know better than our generation.

[1:00:56] Annaleigh Ashford: So if there's something that you feel like, you know, I really am impressed with young people and their ability to do X. I'm really impressed with like young people's awareness of social justice and politics, and I know we're living in a time when they feel much more heated than they were back in, you know, back in my day.

[1:01:15] Charlie Murphy: Um but I didn't even vote.

[1:01:17] Annaleigh Ashford: Or you don't know if you voted.

[1:01:18] Charlie Murphy: You might have voted, you've kind of voted.

[1:01:20] Annaleigh Ashford: Well, I've well I did what I just couldn't remember. Like what was I in college at that moment? Where was anyways? Because also because uh I wasn't a New York resident when I was in college.

[1:01:32] Charlie Murphy: So for your local stuff, which is so much more important now than it it always should have been important, but you know.

[1:01:39] Annaleigh Ashford: Um I think the point is is that I'm really excited by how aware people are about the shows young people are about the shows that they are doing, how they can be a reflection of where we are in the world.

[1:01:56] Charlie Murphy: And that is the point of theater and art. It's to be a reflection of life.

[1:02:01] Annaleigh Ashford: Hold that mirror to danger. And sometimes that's something you learn a bit a little bit later um as an artist, and uh how about how how you want to change the world with your art. And I think that's sort of something that the younger generation is more uh aware and keen on and you know, uh about making art that they respect and want to make and want to do, and I think that's exciting.

[1:02:24] Charlie Murphy: And what about the converse? Is there something that you feel like, okay, my generation, given the way that we were trained, the way that we learned, is there something that you go, if I could speak to someone 10 to 15 years younger than me, what's something that they could they could learn from you or that they could hold on to that you feel like, you know what, we actually know this a little more than than they know.

[1:02:42] Annaleigh Ashford: Um while I think one thing that I always t say to young actors is um, you know, I I talked about it earlier about the balance and making sure that you take care of yourself and self-care is I think a bigger conversation than it was when we were growing up.

[1:03:04] Charlie Murphy: So what I think is part of being self-care, a part of self-care as an actor is um I think therapy's invaluable. I think we have a really challenging um profession that makes us not only look at ourselves and where we are in the world and compare ourselves to other people, and but makes us look at ourselves physically in a way that can be you know hard to manage and navigate.

[1:03:28] Annaleigh Ashford: And um there's a lot of like learning to love yourself because it's so much rejection in so many different ways. Um there's like a million reasons that you won't get a job, and so you have to like learn to be okay with that. Um, and then also I think meditation, I think yoga, I think moving your body is because it's good for your spirit, and um there's all these things that help you navigate, like learning how to be grounded and um and also navigate the rejection of it all and use your body as an instrument.

[1:04:05] Annaleigh Ashford: So I would say um to lean into the juggle, like lean into how difficult it is. You know, don't be afraid of how hard it is, because I think while we were not good at taking care of ourselves and we didn't have good self-care, um, and I I think we leaned in too hard sometimes, you know.

[1:04:24] Charlie Murphy: Like, do you need to have five jobs?

[1:04:26] Annaleigh Ashford: No, but I encourage you to have like one or two for sure when you're in college. Um it's important, it's important to push yourself. Um not that I don't think people are doing that, but I just think it's a great reminder that there needs to be a balance.

[1:04:41] Charlie Murphy: I that's so well said, because I feel like the two images you hear are those those polls, right? You see the person who is studying oh all day and then they go to the next thing and they do their thing and they're you know, sort of going so hard on themselves, versus the idea of I meditate and I only self-care and there's no rigor involved, and finding that balance between how do you maybe have some of both, that there is some rigor, but also some ease in there.

[1:05:02] Annaleigh Ashford: There's gonna be really hard stuff, and that's part of the magic of it.

[1:05:07] Charlie Murphy: It's so true. Um, Annaleigh, thank you so much for your time on the pod today. Anything you need to plug? I know so season two of Be Positive is happening now, right?

[1:05:15] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, we finished we finish up soon, and then um American Crime Story: Impeachment is actually gonna be on Hulu now.

[1:05:21] Charlie Murphy: So you can watch it on Hulu starting, I think like next week.

[1:05:24] Annaleigh Ashford: And then um, and then I'm filming right now a new series for Hulu, a limited series. Um there's it's the untitled Immigrant Project.

[1:05:35] Charlie Murphy: It's about the titled Immigrant Project.

[1:05:37] Annaleigh Ashford: Yeah, I don't know what the title it is. No.

[1:05:39] Charlie Murphy: Um, but uh yeah, so that's gonna be fun. It's yeah, that'll come out probably next year.

[1:05:46] Charlie Murphy: Um, well, Annaleigh, thank you so much for the time. It was really a pleasure to get a chat with you, especially so early in the morning on your end.

[1:05:52] Annaleigh Ashford: Oh my gosh, my pleasure, you guys. Have a good one.

[1:05:54] Annaleigh Ashford: And the sun's like totally up now.

[1:06:01] Charlie Murphy: Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to Annaleigh as much as I enjoyed chatting with her. Uh, she is so smart and open and funny and so generous with her laughter. Like even when she missed one of my dumb jokes, she would like go back a couple seconds and laugh at it, which I think is the mark of a truly kind person.

[1:06:19] Charlie Murphy: Um, we hit a bunch of stuff in this episode at some length, so I don't have a ton of a deeper dive, but I thought I would just take a little glance at this concept of rigor that we talked about right at the end. Or I I use the word rigor, you you could use the word drive or what it is to work really hard. Um, at the end, you heard us chatting a bit about that balance and kind of how you juggle the idea of self-care and what you can achieve.

[1:06:40] Charlie Murphy: But I think a point worth hitting is that the reason for self-care, which some people feel like, oh, it gets fruit, or it's a little, oh, self-meditation or whatever. But the point of that is to allow for rigor, right? In the same way that we talked about the importance of safety with Alejandro and the idea of what it is to create a safe space. The whole point of a safe space is to allow for artistic bravery and risk-taking, right? If you aren't in a safe space, you won't be able to be vulnerable and take risks.

[1:07:06] Charlie Murphy: In that same way, the point of self-care, Annaleigh mentioned stuff like physical fitness, meditation therapy, is to allow you to healthily access the rigor needed to succeed in this business. Right? We take care of ourselves so that we can work hard. Um, to make my sports analogies, I can't help it. You hear about athletes spending a million dollars on their bodies in the offseason, like LeBron James sports now spends a million and a half dollars every year just on his self-care.

[1:07:31] Charlie Murphy: It is precisely so that they can perform at the highest level day to day, day in and day out during the season. And for actors, part of that performance is definitely those eight-show weeks playing a lead on Broadway. That's maybe more specifically athletic in the way that the sports analogy, but part of it is the grind of juggling three survival jobs while trying to put together multiple self-tapes that feel like they're going nowhere and what's the point of it all, right? There's real grind involved there without the positive feedback of adoring audiences.

[1:07:59] Charlie Murphy: And it takes real drive, it takes real rigor to surmount those obstacles that come in the ups and downs of a career in this business. So all that's really to say that it's not so much an either or it really is a both, right? Annaleigh is someone who worked insanely hard. I mean, she graduated high school and college in three years. Oh my gosh, in her life and in her career, right? And she dedicated her self-care, her dedicated self-care allows her to continue to work hard, including stuff like waking up at 6 a.m. to do a podcast before going to PT and then an incredibly busy performing in parenthood life.

[1:08:32] Charlie Murphy: And to be successful in this business, there is some level of that kind of drive needed in all but the true exceptions of cases. You know, maybe there's the random exception where someone just hits it big and then lives a life of leisure. But that is the exception and not the rule in this business. Most people who found a real level of success are able to work very, very hard and set themselves up successfully with what is the care they need to enable them to work that hard.

[1:08:58] Charlie Murphy: Well, if you enjoyed this episode and you want to check out some more from us, don't forget to hit that plus button on your Apple feed. Follow us wherever you're following us. We suggest five stars of a rating if you're down with the fleeting nature of life, and an ironic five stars if you believe on some level that you can take it with you. You can also reach out to us with questions for the pod at mailbag at mapping the college audition.com or Megan and me directly. I'm at Charmer 7, and she's at Megan Marie2014.

[1:09:26] Charlie Murphy: And give us a follow. Don't follow Annaleigh. She has enough followers. We said that already.

[1:09:39] Charlie Murphy: You can also check us out on YouTube. We are now successfully on YouTube. You can just like Google Musical Theater College Auditions and you'll see us come up and subscribe to the feed. You'll get to listen to these episodes and also some little video versions of some of these episodes coming as well.

[1:09:53] Charlie Murphy: To my young artists out there mapping their journeys. Listen to Helen Mirren, be on time, don't be a dick. We'll see you next week.