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[0:10] Charlie Murphy: Hello and welcome to Mapping the College Audition, a podcast where we explore the landscape of the college theater world and try to demystify this daunting audition process.

[0:20] Charlie Murphy: As ever, I am your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA. That's Musical Theatre College Auditions. And today we have got a bulging episode full of Keenan insight for you.

[0:32] Charlie Murphy: Celia Keenan-Bolger is on the pod, and I think you'll find it a really special interview. She is really such a special human and artist, and I think that shines through the podcast.

[0:42] Charlie Murphy: I am also embarrassed to say that she's the first guest who's gonna sound better technically than I do. We can agree or disagree on different guests and their mellifluous voices, but at least I always had the fanciest equipment on the block.

[0:56] Charlie Murphy: But professional voiceover artist that she is, coupled with my embarrassing mistake of somehow recording my computer audio instead of my fancy microphone, which you're hearing now, gives Celia the edge in this episode.

[1:09] Charlie Murphy: And even more, Mia Culpas here. During the game where I make Celia attempt to spell different words forward and backward, I seem to have had some kind of stroke. I keep hearing her say the letter E, which she sometimes was saying, but at least twice she was clearly saying C.

[1:25] Charlie Murphy: The letter C is in Charlie, which was correct in two of the cases. So you're gonna hear me buzzing her like I'm an overactive sibling with the taboo buzzer, and I could not be more wrong in at least one of those cases.

[1:36] Charlie Murphy: At the very least, her spelling of Starcatcher should be reversed to correct, at least for the first four letters. I honestly thought I was being nice during the judging, and it turns out I was a very poor referee. You live and you learn.

[1:49] Charlie Murphy: Speaking of nice, I'm thinking of all of our seniors, our class of 2023, who are getting off wait lists and very kindly letting their former choices know what their new paths will be. It's something we talk a lot about with our students during decision day or surrounding that May 1st day, you know, and sort of taking care of how you communicate with faculty who they likely will encounter later in the business.

[2:11] Charlie Murphy: You know, how you treat people as you're saying no to them is every bit as important as how you treat people you want to say yes to you. And as you're gonna see in this episode, Celia's kindness and all of her interactions really leaves an indelible mark with anyone who meets her.

[2:25] Charlie Murphy: And that could have been our deep dive instead of our deep dive into vulnerability, which I do think you will really enjoy. But that idea of kindness really inspires me to tell the story of kindness that happened to me when I was around the age of many of you listeners.

[2:39] Charlie Murphy: Um, I was a freshman at Carnegie Mellon, and I was in New York City with my dad, uh, and we chose to take in a Broadway show. Of course, for me, I always had to choose a play, and I chose John Patrick Shanley's Doubt with the amazing Cherry Jones, who we talk about in the episode.

[2:53] Charlie Murphy: Uh, she played opposite Celia in the Glass Menagerie. She was fantastic, as was Celia. And I had heard, I'd overheard this like little rumor that Cherry's one of those people at the stage door who was really giving with time and would say hi to people.

[3:05] Charlie Murphy: You know, this before like people took selfies, but maybe it would have been an autograph or just a chance to hi and shake a hand or that kind of thing. So after the show, I talked to my dad into going at the stage door so we could say hi.

[3:15] Charlie Murphy: And not only did she say hi to me, but when I told her I was currently attending CMU, Cherry also being a CMU alum, she whisked me backstage, introduced me to the whole cast, sat with me in her dressing room for like 20 minutes chatting about my career goals.

[3:28] Charlie Murphy: And she kept telling me how I'd make a great father Flynn one day, which was exciting to me beyond measure, and generally treated me as a 19-year-old as if I was a future colleague of this multiple-time Emmy and Tony Award-winning actress.

[3:41] Charlie Murphy: Those 15 minutes, those 20 minutes, whatever that was, was so meaningful to me and left me such a huge Cherry Jones fan for life, irrespective of her incredible talent, which of course would make me a fan in and of itself.

[3:52] Charlie Murphy: And of course, I don't think she was doing this strategically so that I would tell this story on a podcast 20 years later. But you just never know when that good karma will come back around to you.

[4:02] Charlie Murphy: It absolutely happens that some kid turns into some hot shot director and will remember how they were treated by a colleague or a friend when they were casting their next thing many years later. You know, we talk about this in the episode with Celia and Alumni Networks, but kindness for kindness' sake is a gift to both the recipient and the giver.

[4:20] Charlie Murphy: So I hope you've all had some restive Memorial Day weekends and are looking forward to a summer of kindness and love. And of course, booking, booking, booking. We gotta do as we're seeing our alums, book, book, book.

[4:30] Charlie Murphy: But for now, let's get into this episode with Celia Keenan-Bolger.

[4:40] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so honored to be joined by Celia Keenan-Bolger. Uh, Celia has a BFA from the University of Michigan. Uh, she's been on Broadway in the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee, Peter and the Starcatcher, Glass Menagerie, Le Miz, and recently To Kill a Mockingbird, for which she won a Tony Award for her performance.

[5:02] Charlie Murphy: She's also been all over your television screen and is currently starring in the Gilded Age on HBO, and also a fellow podcast host with an excellent miniseries called Sunday Pancakes that Elizabeth and I listened to in the car and enjoyed very much.

[5:16] Charlie Murphy: Celia, welcome on the pod. How are you doing?

[5:17] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Oh my gosh, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

[5:21] Charlie Murphy: Let's dive in. And I'm gonna start you off with what I ask all of our artist guests, which is just to think back a little bit to the beginning of this process for you, 16, 17, maybe especially as you were looking at colleges. What were you hoping to get out of a school, you know, that would launch you into the career that you got? So what were you thinking about back then as you selected Michigan?

[5:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well, first of all, I really didn't want to go to Michigan because I grew up in Detroit. And I it was just one of those things where I think I felt like it's not cool to go to school in the same state.

[5:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You're talking to a Pittsburger who went to Carnegie Mellon.

[5:58] Charlie Murphy: Okay.

[5:59] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So I'm just saying I know exactly what you're saying. Wouldn't say uncool, but yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, I don't know, and like it wasn't even like I grew up going to Ann Arbor every day. Like I didn't really know Ann Arbor that well. I think I had something in my head that was just like, it's cool to go away to school.

[6:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I wanted, I really wanted to go to a conservatory, I think. I really wanted to be completely immersed. And my mother, who was really supportive, but also a true pragmatist, was like, you have to have something to back up. Like you have to have a minor, you either have to double major. So can you look at a school where you can also like get an education degree?

[6:45] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so I was looking around, I had my heart set on a conservatory. I went, I saw like a production of Assassins there that totally blew my mind and got in and was like, I'm ready to go. I'm so excited. And I did audition at Michigan just because it was in the state. I auditioned at a few places.

[7:07] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And then I went to visit the school that I got into, and something which shall not be named. I mean, I have a, I don't know, Cincinnati Conservatory. Wonderful place to go to school. Um, but there was, I guess the reason I'm not saying it is that there was something in me that was like, this place is not the right fit for you.

[7:35] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I don't know, I to this day, I'm not sure I can pin down what that thing was. But I can all I know is that it was the very first little bit of listening that I think I did to myself, which I would we could call instinct, we could call, you know, who knows what it was. But it's it said to me after that weekend, you know what I've how I felt? I felt like I was performing while I was there.

[8:06] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I like I was performing a version of myself when I was hanging out in the dorm.

[8:10] Charlie Murphy: At CCM.

[8:11] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. And then I went to Michigan for a weekend. I saw a show, full disclosure. It was not nearly as good as Assassins. And I was like, oh, like, I don't know. But I stayed in a house with um some upperclassmen who had who like invited us in. And I had the greatest couple of days.

[8:38] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I felt a little bit closer to me. And I was like, you know, I think that that feels important. And so that was how I chose it. It's so and it's such good advice, I think, for um our listeners who are still so they've just decided that this class uh that May 1st is just passed on it, they've just decided, but for you know, the junior listeners and anyone who's who's not yet listening to this and hasn't made a decision yet, of like trusting your instincts, and especially because I think now students listening will be like, but Michigan, of course you went to Michigan, but like it wasn't Michigan back then.

[9:14] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Like it was Michigan, it was a well-known theater school, it was a good theater school, but it was not. When you went there, it wasn't like nobody turns down Michigan. Like, and and so for those who are making those decisions at these schools where they go, this feels right for me, but it's not necessarily the biggest name. It's not necessarily what I think I'm supposed to do. You gotta listen to that instinct because it could be the new Michigan, it could be the new Texas.

[9:36] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that I think it's so, and this happens throughout your career. Like just because something is good on paper doesn't necessarily mean that it is aligned with you and that you will be able to thrive there. That it's it's just because it was really good for a bunch of other people, doesn't necessarily mean that it will be good for you.

[9:56] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[9:57] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that's the kind of advice that's so much easier said than done, because I say that, and then like I watch Elizabeth turn down big Broadway auditions, and I'm like, Are you kidding? What are you doing? It's just not right. I'm like, it's not, it looks great to our bank account, it looks great. What are we doing?

[10:10] Charlie Murphy: But um, but that's right. That's I I think that's a uh a career navigator with that kind of integrity is is really important. Um, but let's dive into the Michigan of it all. So, what was the school experience? We've had too many guests already go to the school, so we know some basics of the school, and we talked with Michael McCarrow, he's the new head about kind of what it's like currently.

[10:27] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But what what was your four years? What was the educational experience like for you?

[10:31] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I mean, I think it really begins with being placed in South Quad, which is like uh the dorm that housed the football team. And I was in a converted triple, so there were three of us in a room that was supposed to be for two people. And my roommate Mandy was like, What are you majoring in? They were both Nita and Mandy were both in L SNA. And they were like, What is your major? And I was like, musical theater. And they were like, What instrument is that?

[10:55] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I was like, Oh, it's like not an instrument. I was like, I was like, Do you know rent? That's a musical that I would never be in rent. And they're like, We love rent. But I think that sort of gives you a window into what was for me so magical about the experience, which was that I was completely immersed in this very rigorous program.

[11:27] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I also had a window to the outside world that didn't give a shit about musical theater, didn't know anything about it. And I felt like it allowed me to have a conservatory experience and to feel belonging, to feel like part of a class, to have this amazing, like protected time, especially as a freshman when I think it can be very destabilizing to be in place, all of this independence.

[11:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But I felt such a sense of belonging inside of this huge ecosystem with so many different things going on. And I think looking back on it, like being a part of a university is I think for many people, especially if it's a huge university like the University of Michigan, as a freshman, you can be you can feel completely swallowed up.

[12:19] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And like it's not always an easy experience. And so having having that as the sort of foundation of everything was really really meaningful.

[12:34] Charlie Murphy: And did you end up getting that other degree? Did you get a minor double major?

[12:36] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Sure did.

[12:40] Charlie Murphy: Many people don't think, I'm gonna go in and double major. I'm like, and did you?

[12:43] Celia Keenan-Bolger: No. I mean, I think that was also a moment, like just talking about that time in your life. There was a part of me that was like, I don't want to teach. And if I need to teach, I'll figure it out. But like, that's not what I'm I don't want to do that yet.

[13:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: As a young person, I just wanted to be a professional actor. And the good news about going to the University of Michigan is that you have to take, I don't know, if it's like two-thirds of the curriculum is academic. So you do still have to take academic classes. And I think this sort of interfacing with students, I had a really amazing English teacher there. I had an amazing experience where I went to Texas and worked with migrant farm workers. Like I just had a little fuller experience in terms of what the opportunities were because it was this institution that had so many other things going on.

[13:38] Charlie Murphy: Totally makes sense.

[13:39] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And you know, I get a lot from our parents who say, "Well, I want to be practical, but you might need to teach someday." And I'm like, I run a teaching company and I have a BFA and nothing else. Like, that's like most people who teach musical theater don't have education degrees in musical theater. That's an abnormal path to teach this as opposed to a normal path. It's not like, oh, I have an MFA and a PhD in teaching. I'm like, maybe, but most people have degrees and then performance experience.

[14:03] Charlie Murphy: Yes, exactly. Um, let's talk about that performance. So I looked for my quick math, it was about five years from graduation to your Broadway debut, which is insane how fast that happened.

[14:13] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You can do you're looking like my math is wrong, four years, six years. No, I think that I it's funny to hear it out loud, where I'm just like, I guess that's right. I mean, I totally trust you. In the short term, you're like, that's incredibly fast. Tell me about those years. So, what was the kind of launch into the business from now are you graduating? Are you showcasing? Are you getting an agent? And then into now building toward the experience of spelling bee.

[14:37] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well, I graduated and I got representation through an agent that mostly represented, this will come as no surprise, children. And she was like, I gotta tell you.

[14:50] Charlie Murphy: Yes, good.

[14:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I think we would be a good fit. And again, it was like not dissimilar to the Michigan thing. I was like, I don't want to have a kid's agent. Like, that doesn't seem really like that doesn't seem like a lot of people. Grown lady. And when I went and met with all of these other agents, and by all of these other, I mean like three other agents from the showcase.

[15:16] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[15:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I did feel like again, it was like a personal connection that this woman was like, I see you. I think her name was Nancy Carson. I think she still exists. I think she still has an agency. And she just was like, I see you and I see a place for you. And I was like, okay. And so I signed with her, but also at my showcase were two graduates from the University of Michigan who had just written a musical called The Summer of 42, Hunter Foster and David Kirschenbaum. And they sort of came up to me afterwards, and again, they were like, "Hey, we're doing a show, and it has like three teenage girls in it, and you should come and audition."

[15:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I do. This is perfect. I have a child's agent. I'm ready to go. She'll like be right on top of it. And it started at Good Speed, and then it went to Theater Works in Palo Alto, and then it went to Stamford, Connecticut, and then it came to the Variety Arts Theater off Broadway and then closed like a month later. So, but it was I think the connection of them, the Michigan connection was a huge part of why I got that job and how they found me.

[16:25] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And then I also think working on new material, because at that point Michigan was not doing anything new really, I had never had the experience of building something like that. And it was really, really magical. It was the collaboration of it, the sort of the way my brain, I think so much of being a young performer, I was always just doing an imitation of my favorite performers. And so even like listening to cast recordings or thinking like, okay, I'm cast in this part, like what will my take be on so and so? Not on the character, on the actor who had played that character. What am I gonna do to Adina playing? And this was an opportunity to feel like, oh no, this is just you.

[17:18] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, and I think that really sparked something in me. And so after that, I kind of was able, I don't know if it was a choice or if I did a Michael John LaChiusa reading right after that of this really amazing musical called Little Fish that was at Second Stage, and that also closed a bit like before. I mean, all of these were also I graduated in 2000, and both of those shows happened in 2001 and like right after 9-11, I guess 2001, 2002, and so neither of them had sort of robust moments.

[17:58] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And then I auditioned for this musical that was being developed by Adam Guettel and Craig Lucas called The Light in the Piazza, and that was being workshopped at the Sundance Theater Lab. And so I, after the Michael John show, I did a production of Sweeney Todd at the Kennedy Center. Sorry, I'm just like giving you my resumes.

[18:23] Charlie Murphy: No, give it all everyone sitting there going, good my god, I want that bio given.

[18:29] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But the good I think something to say about both Sweeney Todd and The Light in the Piazza was that my entire career in college had been as like a sassy belter, and that I had sort of sung a little bit of soprano in voice lessons, but no one was casting me as an ingenue. I didn't see myself as an ingenue. I was sort of like, you know, I guess I can sing high because I had an amazing voice teacher, Melody Racine at Michigan, but that I just wasn't in alignment with what I was like looking to do.

[19:03] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And when I went in and auditioned for they were doing this Kennedy Center Sondheim celebration, and I actually went in and auditioned for Frederica in A Little Night Music, didn't get it, and Tara Rubin, who was casting it, was like, "Would you ever want to like why don't you audition for Joanna in Sweeney Todd?" And I was like, "Ah, well, I can't really do that, but like, sure." And then I got the job, and I remember saying to my agent, "Oh no, like, oh no, I can't, I can't do this. Like, I'm gonna be well, like, can't I do play this part like in summer stock and like get my feet wet and see if I'm actually like up for this?"

[19:41] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And instead, it was like in this very sort of high visibility of the president's coming to see you and whatever like, okay, great. Good luck, good luck to you. And in some ways, I think that was actually it was like, okay, baptism by fire. You're either figure out if you can do this or you can't. And that after that, I went to Sundance and started developing Light in the Piazza, which was like the most I had been obsessed with Adam because of Floyd Collins and Myths and Hymns. I had been obsessed with Craig because of his play Blue Window. I just couldn't believe that I was getting to collaborate with these artists.

[20:21] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I met Kelly O'Hara and Stepas Qual, and we spent these like glorious weeks in Utah making this musical. And that I think was a turning point in my life, just in terms of well, for many reasons, but the rigor and the level of artistry to be 24 years old and to be in the presence of those kinds of artists is just really life-changing.

[20:54] Charlie Murphy: Um makes so much sense. And I just want to underline what you said about the first of those jobs, which I think so often people talk about their schools, and they're like, which school will get me into the rooms? Which school will let me, you know, will introduce me to the people who are doing it, right? And it's like so often, I think what actually happens in the reality of an alumni network is like it is people from that school. It's like it is your actual friends who are in school, or someone a year older than you, two years older than you, a playwright that you went to school with, whatever, that is your first connection that then launches you into the people who get you into the people. It's not like, oh, there's one big room where they're all sitting, and who gives you the ticket to get into that room. It's like you're working with the people they're in the room with you already.

[21:32] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yes. And I also think Michigan, then, and I believe now, I think you have to understand what as a younger person, like what kind of working environment you thrive in. And I think for some people, a sort of competitive, like toothy experience is what brings, I mean, and I feel this even as I continue to work, that there are people who love pressure, that pressure is what brings their best self. And then there are people for whom that is an absolute stop of the channel being open, that they can't function, and that it felt to me like Michigan was a place, and even Brent Wagner, who was the chair of the department then, basically said, you know, this is hard enough. What you are going into. We are really here to nurture an environment that is supportive and that is about community as opposed to cutting you down to build you back up.

[22:39] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I will say it seems like in the educational landscape now, those places that cut you down are fewer and far between. And it actually is hard. If you're the person who goes, I need to be really pushed, it's really hard to hear any professors who will say that without saying, but mental health, but wellness, but we'll take care of you. I mean, people, I think the schools are hip to that. That I think most people want a more nurturing environment. I think most people have recognized, you know, the idea of a cut system and all those things that are just used to exist when you know that's when you were going to school and I was going to school that was that still existed. That now that environment just does not is not prevalent in the world the same way.

[23:13] Charlie Murphy: And you know, I think to the good, but if you are that person who says, "I want, you know, the whipcracking sense of like it's there, there aren't a lot of schools that are gonna necessarily lead with that energy."

[23:23] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, I think part of what you're looking for when you're looking for a school is the culture of the department, the culture of the place, because I think that does exactly what you're saying. Impact once you graduate, like, what is the network like? Are people still like trying to build things together? Are they like, how is that going to carry on through graduation once you're out in the world?

[23:51] Charlie Murphy: Totally true. Um, I'm gonna jump forward past Spelling Bee just because we had our mutual friend, the amazing Sarah Salzberg on, and she talked so much about the development of all those things. But can we jump to okay? So you do Spelling Bee, you get a Tony nomination as a very young person, right? What are you now thinking about that's gonna lead to more what eventually becomes more nominations and a Tony win in this amazing Broadway career and this amazing career in this industry in general? Because I think people think, I think most of our students think, I just want to get to that point, which is oh my god, I originated a role on Broadway, God forbid I got a Tony nomination, amazing, and they think then I've made it.

[24:27] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But the truth is many people get that, and then that's their only show. I mean, Sarah is about as successful a person as you could possibly be in the world, but that's her Broadway show, right? I mean, that's it. Like, it's not like then there's six more, and most people, it's not like you do one and there's eight more guaranteed. It's just not the way that it works. What was those next steps of going, now I'm trying to, I've reached this level, I want to turn it into a plateau or a step to the next place. How did you think about that at 25?

[24:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I mean, you know what's funny is that my experience of being nominated for a Tony was so complex because I remember being there and thinking, like, this is the dream. This is like, I don't know that I grew up being like, I want to win a Tony Award. That was not how why I got into this. But once you're like in the industry, it is a huge deal. But because I had developed The Light in the Piazza, I had been let go from The Light in the Piazza. I had gone on to do Spelling Bee. I had never seen the show. I had not seen Piazza yet. So I'm at the Tony Awards. Vicky Clark is across the aisle from me. Adam Guettel is behind me. And I'm thinking like, I built, I helped build this thing. And those people I felt very close to and also very much wanted success for them, but also still felt sad.

[26:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So you can also be grateful that you're here. So I think that was also just a great experience of being like, you have all these ideas, like if I can just get this, if I can just do this, it then like everything will open up. It's gonna be this amazing experience. And my first Tony Awards were like, I the good part of those Tony Awards is I had no, there was not one tiny part of me that believed I was gonna win. And so I had none of that. It was more just like, how was I gonna hold these two experiences that I had helped build and to try to feel grateful instead of sad. And um, and that felt, and then I and I I felt myself, I felt punishing towards myself that I was like, just be happy. Be grateful exactly.

I mean, that was almost Elizabeth's exact experience of these Tony's be your last year's Tonies, or two years ago, whatever it is now, um, because uh because of COVID, that she I think she felt the COVID and for us that meant motherhood. So, you know, she attended the Tony's five weeks after giving birth. And like, as I was still like, but this is amazing, and we're here, isn't it great? And you know, and I think she just felt like I don't think she realized how much of a dream it was until she was there, and she's like, I didn't get to do a normal awards season, I didn't get to wear the dresses, I'm pumping in the bathroom. Like it's just not the experience that I was expecting to be my Tony Awards.

Yes, and I think that goes for so many markers in a career that the sooner you can accept what is there, and I don't, I mean, I I'm not here for or I'm really trying to move away from the punishing of like you should feel better inside of this, but like the acceptance of that, and then figuring out like what okay, so what do I do with that? And I think what's funny when even when you asked that question, like how did I build after Spelling B? Like, I I think I because I did spelling bee for so long, I I wanted to do something else. I had never done eight shows a week for over a year. I did it off Broadway, and then I did a year run, and then I signed another six months where I had an out, and inside of the six months after the year on Broadway, I booked Lay Miz and went straight into Lay M Lay Miz with no break.

And was totally burnt out by the time Lay Miz finished and was vocally deeply fatigued as somebody who had I mean I had great training, but I just had not done that kind of and spelling bee was hard singing. And Ley Miz felt like a such a break from Spelling Bee. But the truth is, if I I mean, you know, hindsight, 2020, but I should have taken a break in between the two. What athlete goes through a whole season and doesn't have an off season? Like you if you've just vocally done six 18 months of a show, yeah, you need a break, of course. Yeah. And instead I went right into Lay Miz, and then I felt so stressed out about my voice all the time, every morning, waking up worried, worried, worried.

Were you like worried about vocal injury? Like what was that? No, it was vocal fatigue and and and I was worried about vocal injury. I mean, I f I feel like I would go to the I would go to my ENT and she would scope me and she was like, you know, it's like a little, it's swollen. I never called out during spelling bee, or I tried like that was we were we it was a different culture, but there was a lot of stigma against calling out. And so I never wanted to miss shows. And then in Lay Miz, my doctor was like, you cannot do eight shows a week. You have to do seven. Uh-huh. And so I had to talk to the producers. I was full of shame that I was missing a show. Wow. One show a week. And so when they asked me to like renegotiate my contract at the end of those six months, I was like, I absolutely cannot.

I'm totally depleted. And then I went, then I I did a a show at um Playwrights Horizons that was like a new musical. It felt sort of like le less pressure. It was the sing was not as hard. It was this music a musical by Michael Friedman based on the movie Saved. And again, it was playing somebody in high school. It was like a younger person again. You still have the same agent. Exactly. No problem. I actually had a different agent by then. I got poached when I got nominated for a Tony. Not shy. I actually buy an agent who was one of the agents I met with after my leagues, like she after showcase where she was like, you know, come this way. And I was like, and I didn't go with her because I thought the agency itself seemed weird.

But I was like, I am gonna go with her because she she liked me when I was at the beginning. Yeah before I was exactly well, and and also maybe you weren't ready. I mean I I definitely had impression walking into some rooms where I was like, I'm not ready for this yet. Like it could be eventually, but like this this smells like money and this smells like things that I am not yet. And expectation. And I already have enough expectation on myself that I'm not sure I'm ready to put this other thing on as well. Um can we talk a little bit about this idea of do you know why you are stuck playing kids? Why this because like I mean, I know you're short, I guess shorter in stature, but like you're not like that small.

I like, and you seem to me, my impression of you both actually on stage and in life, is like this was incredibly mature, wise, motherly figure. Like, I just I'm like the fact that the fact that I even in Killamockey bird, you're now in your 40s and you're still playing kids. Like, like why is that happening to you? How did this happen? I mean, it's a really it's some it that part of my career feels somewhat mysterious in that I think early on, because I looked young, and because I think producers and directors are always hoping to cast people who are professionals instead of um actual kids, just because it makes jobs easier. But that I and because I just wanted to work, that that was sort of the way things went.

But I remember a few times saying to my agent, like, I'm done with this, like I do not want to keep playing kids. And guess what? I didn't get any jobs. And so I was like, well, I do want to keep working though. That's right. And so I was like, well, if I guess I'm not in a position to make that decision now. And I remember I got the um the audition for Peter and the Starcatcher, and I was like, oh, but then you know, that was like one of the great experiences. Magical shows of my life. And I think the truth is I just wanted to work, and the industry felt like it found a lane for me. And I think also like it's hard to be an adult playing a kid, like it requires a certain set of tools that I happen to have, not that I've honed, but like in the way that you know Kelly O'Hara has the gift of a perfect soprano.

I have the gift of childlike energy or whatever. Yeah, I mean, it's also it does feel like a box that you're putting you're put into something that is still has a lot of freedom for a diversity of roles. It's not like you've been playing the same role. I mean, I've seen you just in the shows I've seen, all kinds of different stuff that you're able to do, even within the context of a younger person. I think the only thing that now I really face is that generally playing a child or a younger person requires an amount of physical energy eight times a week that is not as easy as it used to be. I hear you on that. I hear you on that. Um, can we talk about another near child that you played, or a childish character at least, in The Glass Menagerie, which I'm gonna make you endure a compliment because I think this is on the short list of like the best productions I've seen in New York City personally.

Like I was at that point when I saw it of like my hipster theater beliefs that like nothing good happens on Broadway. It was just like all the good stuff happens off Broadway. Like I was eye-rolling even as I came into the show. I was like, This isn't gonna be like Zachary Quinto went to Carnimon and I was like, oh, we'll see whatever he's at TV star, we'll see if he's any good, you know. And I thought everyone in that show was so exquisitely good. I mean, the play is beautiful itself, but like it just felt like a it felt like a non-Broadway show on Broadway. And it made me feel like, oh my god, okay, Broadway can still do it. It gave me like a little belief in, and I've since seen other great shows on Broadway.

I'm like, all right, good. Quite the hipster I was back then. But um, what was that experience of that show? Was it as magical as my 20-some-year-old self thought it was? Uh, I would say thumbs up to that. Yes, it was. And but I think it's interesting, like I really was not at all interested in the play The Glass Menagerie. I think I read it in high school, and I was like, this does not resonate with me. This I grew up in Detroit. I did had a somewhat like healthy um family environment. Okay, there's no need to brag, Celia. Okay. Not all of a healthy family environments. Not a weekly family therapy for no reason. But I felt like this play is not for me. Like this just doesn't really resonate.

And so when I got the audition, I auditioned because of John Tiffany, because I had seen Blackwatch, and I auditioned because of Cherry Jones. And so I was like, you know, if it's good enough for Cherry Jones, I will at least see what this is all about. And so I started to read the play. And I was, I said to my husband, John, I was like, John, the glass menagerie is a very beautiful. He's like, I know. Well, why do you think it gets a revival every four years? So I went in and I said to John, like, what's your what is the um what's the concept here? What's what are you? And he was like, no, no concept, just a beautiful play. Yes. And I was like, huh. And so I I sort of I and I will say this.

John Tiffany loved that play so much that his feelings about the play infected the rest of us. Because I think even Cherry was like, that old, that play, no, not for me. And I think it's a wonderful um example of of design as the third, or I guess it's fourth, the fifth character in that play. Because really, John, when he we would talk about it, he was like, the scenes are so rich, there's so much there. You just lean into the the writing. But then on that first day of rehearsal, he showed us the set. And for those who didn't see the show, usually the glass menagerie is done in a living room for the Wingfields. And but Tom does say this is this is a play about memory. And so John had this idea that it should exist as a memory.

And so it was like this little island in the middle of this like black goo. Um and and there were these sort of magical realism moments very early on that sort of taught the audience to understand, like, oh, we are we are we are in the memory of someone. Was it Zach who disappeared into the couch? So someone in like the first scene, like sucked up by the couch. Oh, pulled you out of the couch, that's what it is. Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's so good. But I also love the idea of like, even though we're talking about design elements, and some some expect uh extent, there's a spectacle to that. That was exactly what I felt of the no concept. I think I'd been so used to like, all right, the revival's gonna be, but this time it's what?

Like this time it's downtown and it's totally different feeling. It's like, but no, it felt like it was just a beautiful take on the play without without too much, you know. I guess it had some stars in it, but it wasn't like this is the our take on glass menagerie. Yeah, the other thing that was amazing about that production is we there are two, there's like a reader's version of the glass menagerie, and then the the theater, or I don't I don't remember what it's called. It's like the the dramatic version. And the estate gave us the they they let us read both versions, which are a little bit different and go through line by line and pick and choose which lines felt good for us, and that was something I think also that made all of us feel a kind of ownership around building it, even though it's this old play that we have these two different texts and were able to kind of cobble together what felt like most um alive for the for the four of us.

I love it. I'm gonna make you do one more storytelling just because we did to kill a mockingbird. Um, and I'd love to hear about the process in general, but also I'm a very large West wing fan. So did you get to interact with Aaron Sorkin? Were there any interesting Aaron Sorkin tidbits that you got from that experience? Um, I mean, it besides him being a very, very prolific and um incredible writer, I will say, like, previews, and you know, the my getting that job was actually Bart, who directed The Light in the Piazza, calling me and saying, like, I ha I I have a favor to you.

[39:11] Celia Keenan-Bolger: No, it was not that. He was like, I have a favor to ask you. This is not a job that will be yours. This is Aaron Sorkin needs to hear the script to go to To Kill a Mockingbird, and we cannot, we only have two days to do the reading. So we can't get an eight-year-old to read his language. But could you just come in so he can hear the play and know how he needs to work on it? And I think after The Light in the Piazza, he was extreme, like he was very like aware to be like, this isn't yours to be clear, you will not be continuing with this. Yes, yeah. And I was like 100% I will come in and do that. I was obsessed. I also was obsessed with West Wing. I was also obsessed with Harper Lee's book. And so I came in, I felt pretty low stakes in some ways.

I was like, maybe someday I'll get to be in an Aaron Sorkin movie or on a television show. I want to impress him. But after the second day, or after the first day, Bart came over and he was like, We kind of think this might work. And I was like, Oh god, please don't. Don't tell me that. Don't tell me that. Now I have pressure. I have enough pressure. I'm trying to get a TV show. Don't make me mess this job up, dude. Right. Yeah. But it really, um, and right after that, I got the offer. But the thing that I will say, and I had heard this about Aaron on the West Wing that he would, nothing is ever finished. And so during previews, we previewed, we had a really long preview process. It was six weeks, and we rehearsed every single day.

And he, if he could have kept rewriting, he would have. And that is both like so thrilling. And to have a writer who's capable of doing that, and also like the level of stress of this is not a TV show. I don't need to get it right once. I need to have to do this every night. And you know, it's that thing, of course, where we would rehearse it during the day, and some things would be ready and some things wouldn't. So we would rehearse it and we would be like, We're gonna do the old version tonight, but tomorrow we'll try to put it in, or you know, it was high performance.

[41:21] Charlie Murphy: We have not talked about that specific moment. I think for some of our listeners who don't kind of know the Broadway process, that is such a crazy thing that you're rehearsing one thing in the day and performing a different version, especially in like a musical, even more when there's dancing involved, and there's whatever. I'm like, it takes me if I have to learn a dance, it's weeks of getting the thing right, and I have to do a different version, you know, in the day, hold that in my head, but still do something else, which involves moving furniture and all those other things.

[41:47] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, in the evening. That's an amazing skill set that I have to still do. You know, somebody, I tripped Coleman, who's a director who I've worked with who's so amazing. He said, and this was when I was doing a new play with him. He said, you know, before the show, because we were putting in a lot of changes, he said, close your eyes and imagine like do the scenes. Don't say them out loud, but see yourself in space, do the like do the blocking, say the lines, and that will help you like integrate. And to this day, like when I when new changes would go in for To Kill a Mockingbird, I would like to turn off the lights, sit on the floor or lie down in my head, try to go through whatever new things were going in that night, or the things that I had done last night that I had not rehearsed that day, but just to like get my brain already.

[42:41] Charlie Murphy: I love it. And um, we're gonna take a quick break here. We'll um run some ads on the back end. We're gonna chat a little bit about vulnerability. So we're gonna get ourselves into the vulnerable place before we start this chat.

[42:54] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with the wonderful Celia Keenan-Bolger, and we're gonna talk a little bit about vulnerability. Um, with each of our artists, I try to highlight a special skill or superpower of theirs, and I think you have many, but I thought we could do a deep dive on vulnerability, as I think it's something that you lead with so well, both on stage and in life. Like, I think you have mastered the skill of being available, which is in itself, I think a huge skill, but even more so that kind of ephemeral quality of like wearing our characters' parts on their sleeves and emotionally taking us along for the journey. So I guess my first question to the point of what you're saying with uh Kelly has this kind of voice and uh I have the skill set of playing children. Is this something that you feel like you consciously cultivated, or is it something that you feel like you just have always had?

[43:40] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You know, I think it probably is something that was being cultivated when I was very, very young. With your healthy family relationships. Very good, very this is what I'm gonna say about my healthy family relationships is that my be that in all the health in my family, we were a pretty communicative family. But big feelings were not something that were of much currency. And so it was a more like sort yourself out and come back to me when big feelings would come up. And my parents, my mother was extremely stoic, my father very even, particularly I think for a male, like not a lot of anger there, not a lot of like nobody was really losing their shit when I was growing up. And so as a kid, I think I found the theater, you know, at a very young age, and I think realized that a somewhat expanded version of myself that wasn't maybe allowed at home that was sort of big and feeling.

I mean, really, I think there's also something about the Midwest that so much, like the worst thing you could be was like big for your britches, like to take up a lot of space or to um think that you're better than someone else. And you know, there were a lot of messages I think that my parents gave me that were actually really healthy and good in terms of like helping other people and thinking of the bigger community and not putting yourself first. But I do think in a development way, it does keep you small inside of a system. And so having a place that I could go and not only like try on different personalities or have discoveries about different parts of myself, like I think that that was really impactful.

But then especially as I got older and was trying to understand my feelings and trying to, you know, put whatever I was going through through a processor, I realized that being a performer was like a lifeline to that kind of work. And I think the truth is I'm trying to now bring my creative self even closer to my self-self that I think my capacity to be vulnerable on stage is sometimes a stand in for my capacity to be vulnerable in my life. And that I think something I know about myself is that I have a much easier time talking to you and telling you like very what might seem like personal or hard things, but that with the people that are the closest to me that letting them in can be another sort of hurdle.

And that you know it's funny like with social media I think I think Brene Brown talks about like vulnerability on social media and that just sharing that you're sad is very different with like a bunch of followers is very different than sharing that you're sad with your spouse or your sister or somebody that you love. And I think that there is something about there is a safety around the vulnerability of being an actor that is different than me being vulnerable with you or me being vulnerable with a group of students in a master class than being vulnerable like with my beloved. And so I'm trying to kind of work from the outside in on this one and try to like merge more of my creative self with my self-self.

[47:47] Charlie Murphy: Yeah that's so beautifully said. But and and I mean it certainly I've had that exact experience of like it's no problem to cry in front of a thousand people on stage it is a hard to cry in front of uh my wife or whatever you know that experiences but but uh as an actor specifically how do we like how do we cultivate vulnerability or how do we like because I think a lot of young actors they understand that vulnerability is a positive thing to bring to their work but I think they're less clear on what that means like I feel like anytime I've brought it up with a student when I'm you know hey like this is a positive thing. We want we want to be vulnerable in the audition rooms they think it means that either they need to cry more or they think it means like I need to have a breathier voice when I'm talking or whatever like something vulnerable right like I I guess what what does it mean to you or what what does it that evoke when I say your performance is really vulnerable. What are you thinking of trying to bring to your performances that make them feel that way to me or that you know feel that way to the audience.

[48:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I guess it really is like the practice of vulnerability as an actor just feels like the practice of presence which is you know elusive but that it really means that you're accepting where you are in that day, which is that I mean, I think there used to be a part of me that was like, leave the day behind. And now it's sort of like the day might be an asset, especially if you're in a long run, eight shows a week. But it's like if you've said the lines a million times, the vulnerability of just letting whatever you've experienced through the day inform the decisions of the evening, that that is one part of it. But I also think it's really trying to not, I think vulnerability is a letting go of control.

And so much of what we want to do, we want to be prepared, we want to feel secure. It's so it's so vulnerable to be an actor that I think we do a lot of things to make ourselves feel safe. And so it's like on one hand, I think to be a vulnerable actor, you have to have done a certain amount of preparation so that you're able to, when the time comes, be in a real giving and receiving relationship with whoever you're in a scene with or with the audience, so that you're opening yourself up to the possibility that things may come in or come out that you didn't plan. And I also think that just takes a lot of that's just time. That's like the 10,000 hours in some ways.

[50:34] Charlie Murphy: You've segued exactly into my next question. I was going to talk about that balance of control or crafting versus a vulnerability. Is there something that you are trying? You said it takes a lot of work. Is there something that you're trying to craft maybe in terms of a structure or in terms of a safety net with your scene partners, so that you are able to be vulnerable and allow that difference night to night and allow like what what what walls are you trying to build to let you kind of run around inside of them, if that's the way you're thinking about it.

[51:02] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I don't know that I'm really I don't know that I'm trying to build those walls, but I think you know a vulnerable actor when you're on stage with them, and so you return to them over and over and over again. Like you can tell when there are people who are with you and who no matter what are gonna hit the tennis ball back, even if it's the worst serve. And there are people that are, and you know, and I have been this person too, where I'm like, not tonight. I'm just a little checked out, yeah. But that I think you start to find it's less about the container, maybe. I mean, I think also there are directors who build a container where that kind of vulnerability bringing yourself and bringing a more um making a brave space is valued. And so that also informs like how free you feel to get to do it.

[52:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But I really think so much of the relinquishing of control is feeling like you have a scene partner who's got you. And I think if you trust them, you can do it.

[52:11] Charlie Murphy: Yes, yes.

[52:12] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And the truth is you can't always trust the people that you're with.

[52:15] Charlie Murphy: Of course.

[52:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think I've been really lucky to work with people where on the nights when I have not totally felt like I've got all the goods, we're just like, I'm I I have enough for both of us.

[52:28] Charlie Murphy: And like you, yeah.

[52:30] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, yeah. We talked about that with our last episode was with Sean Alan Krill in Parade right now. Um it was opposite Elizabeth and Jaggett. Um, and we talked about generosity, and it feels not that dissimilar to that of like, I'm gonna give to you to allow you space. And it allows you. We're talking about it maybe in the context of like, I'll give you this moment, I'll give you this joke, or I'll give you this, but also that kind of playing back and forth that is about I'm gonna hit the tennis ball, and you know I've got you even if you hit it a little bit weird tonight.

[52:55] Charlie Murphy: Yeah means you don't have to have as much control over the thing and lets you be a bit more vulnerable. Um you mentioned the idea of I don't have it every night. I guess when we talk about especially some of these emotional roles, I'm looking at that resume. I'm like some of these roles you have played have you think about vocal difficulty, but also just sort of emotionally difficult. I mean playing scout, I mean that is not like a it's not an easy, you know, night in terms of the emotional experience. How how do you in terms of how vulnerable you're gonna be or how how deep you're gonna go, maybe, and and to change that question a little bit, how do you think about that in terms of eight shows a week? Or are you thinking about your emotional, you know, piggy bank the way you might think about your vocal piggy bank, going, I can't give eight shows a week for this this level of you know, rawness.

[53:35] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I mean, I think that it's it's a really good question. And I think you have there's such a balance of like holding yourself to a very high standard that says, you know, I expect a kind of performance from myself. And and I think the most we can expect from ourselves is is a kind of presence. But that means I think early in my career, particularly with the more emotional things, that I was like, oh, if I don't have the tears or if I'm not feeling the thing inside, like it wasn't a good performance, and the fixation on the emotional resonance is such a block and keeps you from I don't know how else to say it, but like the channel being open. And I think as I have gotten older, that the more important thing is the is the presence as opposed to the product but I do think I also am just somebody and I think it goes back to the conversation I was having about using my art as a way to process my life that in some ways it's not a coincidence that I've ended up in these emotional roles because I I think on some level I've sought them out or I've even built things in as a kind of release every night to sort of get whatever it is that's like churning inside of me like out of the system and that in some ways even in the hardest um even in the hardest roles that I I'm able to walk away from that show and feel like I've I I'm not carrying that home with me.

[55:19] Charlie Murphy: I don't feel burdened by the emotional weight of what that role asked. And I think that that's that's just luck. That I don't know that that's um something that I've done so much cultivating in but that I I don't necessarily feel completely bogged down when I've had to play roles that that demanded a lot emotionally.

[55:44] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That's really cool yeah and I I love that idea of the channel being open you know sort of the pressure that you're putting in yourself. I I've often said to students I don't necessarily know if you're trying to get to this emotional place of course we always talk about the result is not as important as you know the the process but um I I don't necessarily know how to get you there, but I know it's it's more about allowing than it is about forcing. That like you cannot force someone to go to an emotional like I I've never had that experience in my life where I've been able to force an emotion as a person or as an actor, but no as an actor, I I can't promise if you allow that it'll come, but basically I can promise it won't if you don't, if you don't open the channel and release and let it happen as opposed to make it happen.

[56:25] Charlie Murphy: And the power on the nights when you're just like, I am really not here. I'm not feeling access to these emotional places, that the reinvestment in the people on stage with you, like they can get you there when you can't the number of times that I've experienced that, or they'll and sometimes they don't get you to where you were last night or the at the beginning of the run, but they can get you somewhere else, and that's its own magic. Like that you're not trying to just exactly what you said, that we're you're not looking to produce the same thing or to to have an end point. It's really just about like this surprising yourself with where you can end up.

[57:05] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. Um, how has, if it has, how has motherhood changed any of this for you?

[57:10] Charlie Murphy: I mean, it it's impossible for me to tell exactly what the experience of, you know, I there's a pandemic and I had a child, and I'm in three kinds of therapy. So my experience sort of of my own emotional life in the past couple years has changed significantly. Um, but have you felt similarly? Have you felt like having a kid changed you as a performer, changed you as that kind of human vessel of vulnerability?

[57:33] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I mean, having a child, I think is like one of the I I would say much more than getting married, that that having a child it transformed my life in ways that were not similar to anything else I had ever experienced. And I think Elizabeth and I have talked about this a little bit, but that I think so many, there were a lot of women who said to me, like, oh my god, it's the great when I this was when I was pregnant. They were like, it's just the best because you don't care as much. You just don't care. You see, like, you don't worry about things as much.

[58:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I will tell you, for like the first three years of my child's life, I cared just as much. I still, I felt, if anything, sort of split that I feel like part of why I am on this planet is to be an actor. And that being a mother was taking me away from the thing that I love most. And that that brought up a kind of deep shame in me that felt like, oh, you're just an ambitious monster who doesn't like love her child as much as everybody else. And the deep shame that you loved acting more than your kid, you've got to be a good idea.

[58:52] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[58:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Well, and I think the truth is it's not, it's not the way that I said it in my head was that, but it wasn't that I loved acting more than my kid. It was that I loved acting more than motherhood. And I think there's a big distinction there because I think the reason that women don't talk about how hard it is inside of motherhood is they're afraid of saying, I don't like my kid. And you know, certainly there are days where you're like, my kid is acting like a crazy motherfucker. But that wasn't what I was experiencing. I was not experiencing that I didn't love my child. It was that the activities inside of motherhood. And I will say, like, one of the biggest parts of it, I have built my life around a positive feedback loop.

In a room, I have the positive feedback loop of the director, of the other people that I'm working with. And then I get out onto the stage, and then I have the positive feedback loop of the audience, and I have the my friends coming to see it and telling me like this is great, blah, blah, blah. And that motherhood, there is no positive feedback loop for a very long time.

[59:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that I think what there it has been a long process of me coming to terms with the fact that I can have both of these things and maybe not have the joy inside of them all at once. But that I do feel a kind of something changed, you know, maybe honestly during the pandemic, when I think, like if you had told me you're gonna be home with your child every day, and you're gonna sort of homeschool them, and you're not gonna have a job, I would have said, I actually am not capable of doing that. Like I will crumble. And to a degree, I kind of did. I mean, it goes back to this like idea that I'm using my performing as a way to process my life. Right. Now you have no crutch to do and and it's worse than ever, and you have nothing to cathartically release.

[1:00:54] Charlie Murphy: Yes, and full-time parent.

[1:00:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah. And so I think I don't know, like, talk to me maybe in five years, and I will have a more refined answer about how actual mothering has infiltrated my process. But it to me feels like more of in my mind, the question is how do I how am I coming to terms with my role as a parent and my role as a performer? And that feels um to right now, I I certainly feel more peaceful about it now than I did like five years ago, four years ago. But it is a great mystery. And it it feels like it's gonna keep changing and it's gonna keep and of course, excuse me, I I know that it's informing my work, but but really I would say it is more informing my career choices than my work. That I I that that's the real place that I feel the impact.

[1:01:57] Charlie Murphy: Well, and it is such a weird, unique career that like, you know, it the version of having it all as an actor is so different than it is as a lawyer or as a whatever, you know, just you know, in the so same ways that like, you know, the oh, are you ever gonna be a success as an actor? You know, to some people means like booking a TV show, as opposed to, you know, like having an amazing working career. I'm like, you're in the top one, two percent or whatever of the entire be like, so are you ever gonna argue in front of the Supreme Court lawyer? Like, what's like the standard we hold actors to to make success? And I think that's the same thing, you know, I do think most, like I remember when I was talking about like, oh, I'm less good at my job because I'm I had a kid, I was thinking my mom about it.

She goes, of course you are, everyone is. Like that's what having a kid is. Like, yeah, you're you're you're some percentage worse because you're not dedicating, you know, 80 hours a week to it in the same way. You can't. Isn't that you know, but but somehow as an actor that feels shameful in a way and that other careers, it just wouldn't be. It'd be like, yeah, I'm a mom and I also do the law or whatever. I don't know if that's my analogy.

[1:02:54] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah, and I think there's something there are not a lot of women with children in powerful positions in our industry. And so it's it it means that it's up to actresses who have children to try to shift the paradigm. And and I'm not even honestly just talking about mothers but caregivers in general this is like for you know aging parents for disabled family members like that this is uh it's a an even larger um scope than than than just motherhood but it it is we we have we have we don't have a lot of systems in place to um yeah and the societal expectation not to get too political with it all but that that it should be the woman's job to do that I mean obviously there's some elements of biological motherhood that are different but like when it is an aging parent when it is what it's like it it's still the disproportionately falls on women to do it as opposed to to men.

[1:03:54] Charlie Murphy: Um let's get to our game our I'm I now feel after this deep vulnerable conversation to put you on the spot and make you sweat at a game is cruel and yet I'm gonna do it to you.

[1:04:06] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I love it.

[1:04:07] Charlie Murphy: Sometimes we try to get really creative with games the unique trivia whatever this time I went with an easy we're gonna do a spelling bee. I'm gonna make you spell I almost made Sarah spell but we did like a real estate style game and so I'm sorry this is how it ended up because I didn't do it with Sarah. I had it preloaded already. A basic spelling bee, but the only thing that makes it harder is that if you miss you have to keep going. So it's not like you you're out when you miss one you know what I mean so it's just we have to sit in our our mistakes. It's gonna start off a little easier and then it's gonna get harder. I I will give you definitions if you want them and such things though these will be words you know how these are not gonna be incredibly hard words. And then we have a little bonus challenge at the end where I'm gonna make you spell some words backward. Just to make it a little interesting for the listeners.

[1:04:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: What the hell have I signed up for? You can do this. I believe in you. And the listeners can play along. See if you can spell as well as Olive.

[1:04:59] Charlie Murphy: This is your chance in this moment to do it. Good luck to all of us. Good luck to us all. The first word, not that hard. Are we ready? The first word is menagerie.

[1:05:09] Celia Keenan-Bolger: M-E-N-A-G-E-R-I-E.

[1:05:15] Charlie Murphy: Perfectly spelled. And she didn't even have to ask for anything. She was ready to go. Okay. We're gonna get slightly harder, but still we're in the first round. Perfect, great. Okay. The second word is this is an honor of mockingbird. That was of course um uh glass menagerie. In honor of mockingbird, we're gonna use the word conscience.

[1:05:31] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Conscience.

[1:05:32] Charlie Murphy: This is a funny word because this is a word in my life that I'm always like, is it conscious? Conscience? So good luck. Um C-O-N-S-C-I-O-U-N.

[1:05:46] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That was the one that it's not.

[1:05:48] Charlie Murphy: You did the one that it's not. It's conscience, is how we do it. S-C-I-E-N-C-E.

[1:05:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: S-C-I-E-N-C-E.

[1:05:53] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you spelled a different word perfectly.

[1:05:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So you're doing well. You spelled two words correctly, one of them not being the word I've asked. Okay, word three, and this is just a wrong along that lines. We're gonna do misspell, misspell in honor of spelling B.

[1:06:06] Celia Keenan-Bolger: M-I-S-P-E-L-L.

[1:06:09] Charlie Murphy: Oh, er, am I S-S?

[1:06:12] Celia Keenan-Bolger: C.

[1:06:13] Charlie Murphy: Celia, just so the listeners know, she really looked at me imploringly, like I would give her a hint. Like, what am I gonna do? Like put a letter in the video.

[1:06:20] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's two S's S-S-P-E-L-L.

[1:06:22] Charlie Murphy: What are the most misspelled words? You're going great. You're going great. You're two for three or two for four, depending on how we're good.

[1:06:29] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Alright, now we're gonna do some characters, some characters from plays that you've done.

[1:06:33] Charlie Murphy: Oh.

[1:06:33] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Alright. Marius Pomessy.

[1:06:36] Charlie Murphy: Oh, M-A-R-I-U-S.

[1:06:39] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that's where it's gonna end.

[1:06:41] Charlie Murphy: That was perfect. Perfectly spelled. I didn't say that.

[1:06:43] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Oh, I thought you were asking me to spell Pom Merci.

[1:06:45] Charlie Murphy: I was, of course, asking you to do that, but we're making the game a little easier as we go. We're like, if she cannot spell misspelled, she certainly can't spell Pomerci.

[1:06:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You had a 50-50 chance of getting this spell correctly.

[1:06:56] Charlie Murphy: Okay, how are we gonna do with um from the Gilded Age Rockefeller?

[1:07:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: John Rockefeller.

[1:07:03] Charlie Murphy: I wouldn't know.

[1:07:04] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I would have gotten this one wrong. I looked it up. R-O-C-K-E-F-E-L-L-A-R.

[1:07:11] Charlie Murphy: Oh, do you got an A at the end?

[1:07:13] Celia Keenan-Bolger: No.

[1:07:13] Charlie Murphy: No, that was an E at the end.

[1:07:14] Celia Keenan-Bolger: E-R-E.

[1:07:15] Charlie Murphy: Oh, yeah, E-R. No, but the hard part I thought was I would have put an A. I think I would have done rock up.

[1:07:19] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Raga.

[1:07:19] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, but you got the one E right, but the harder U are. Alright, we're gonna make it a little easier, and I realize I never asked you about the glorious moment of winning an Antoinette Perry Award.

[1:07:27] Celia Keenan-Bolger: How do you spell Antoinette Perry?

[1:07:31] Charlie Murphy: Oh shit.

[1:07:32] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I would have got this wrong too, I think.

[1:07:37] Charlie Murphy: Perfectly done. Perfect.

[1:07:39] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And then I spell Perry like P-U-N.

[1:07:43] Charlie Murphy: Patty P-A.

[1:07:45] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Okay.

[1:07:46] Charlie Murphy: Then I I I even hesitated to ask. This was gonna be my hard one. Uh Logane Schwartz and Grubinier.

[1:07:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Oh, L-O-G-A-I-N-N-E.

[1:07:56] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm. Perfect so far.

[1:07:57] Celia Keenan-Bolger: S-C-H-W-A-R-T-C-E-N-G-R-U-B-E-N-N-A-I-R-E.

[1:08:10] Charlie Murphy: Oh, no, good. You made other mistakes too.

[1:08:11] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I think they did.

[1:08:12] Charlie Murphy: It was pretty good. It was pretty good. At least this is what Google says.

[1:08:15] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's Schwartz and Groubenier.

[1:08:17] Charlie Murphy: It's like the two names put together.

[1:08:18] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's just the word and.

[1:08:19] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, Schwartz and Grubenier.

[1:08:21] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And Grubenier.

[1:08:22] Charlie Murphy: Schwartz and Grubenier.

[1:08:23] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Yeah.

[1:08:24] Charlie Murphy: That I thought no one was gonna get right.

[1:08:25] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I can't imagine.

[1:08:27] Charlie Murphy: Okay, dare we try the bonus level, or is it too?

[1:08:31] Celia Keenan-Bolger: We're gonna try to spell the word star catcher backward.

[1:08:34] Charlie Murphy: So not a hard word, but not easy to spell backward. Starcatcher. Might be a good one. So let's do it backward.

[1:08:39] Celia Keenan-Bolger: R.

[1:08:40] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[1:08:41] Celia Keenan-Bolger: E H.

[1:08:47] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[1:08:47] Celia Keenan-Bolger: C.

[1:08:50] Charlie Murphy: Mm-mm. There's an E after?

[1:08:51] Celia Keenan-Bolger: No, no.

[1:08:52] Charlie Murphy: We're going back.

[1:08:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You went backward and then forward again.

[1:08:54] Charlie Murphy: That would have been start to head.

[1:08:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Alright, we'll try another one.

[1:08:57] Charlie Murphy: We'll try another one.

[1:08:58] Celia Keenan-Bolger: We'll try backward, mocking bird.

[1:09:00] Charlie Murphy: Mockingbird.

[1:09:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:02] Charlie Murphy: D.

[1:09:03] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:04] Charlie Murphy: R.

[1:09:05] Celia Keenan-Bolger: This is harder than it looks if you never done this.

[1:09:07] Charlie Murphy: Perfect.

[1:09:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: B.

[1:09:09] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:10] Celia Keenan-Bolger: G.

[1:09:11] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:11] Celia Keenan-Bolger: N.

[1:09:12] Charlie Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:13] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I.

[1:09:14] Charlie Murphy: K.

[1:09:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: C.

[1:09:17] Charlie Murphy: No, where are the E's?

[1:09:18] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Where's the E coming from?

[1:09:20] Charlie Murphy: No, no, E.

[1:09:21] Celia Keenan-Bolger: C.

[1:09:21] Charlie Murphy: Oh, you said C.

[1:09:22] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Oh, then you got it perfectly right.

[1:09:23] Charlie Murphy: Then I misheard you.

[1:09:24] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You got it perfectly right. I was like, why are there E's again?

[1:09:26] Charlie Murphy: There's no E's in this word.

[1:09:28] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's from the lost E from the Rockefeller.

[1:09:30] Charlie Murphy: The silent E.

[1:09:31] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Mucky Music and Bird.

[1:09:33] Charlie Murphy: Okay, that was fantastic. We'll do one more. We'll see if we can end on some Michigan Pride.

[1:09:38] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Though also a shout out to your uh your other Marvel podcast series with Wolverine.

[1:09:43] Charlie Murphy: Oh.

[1:09:44] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You spell Wolverine backward.

[1:09:46] Charlie Murphy: There is at least one E in this word.

[1:09:47] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:50] Charlie Murphy: Um E.

[1:09:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Mm-hmm.

[1:09:53] Charlie Murphy: N I.

[1:09:57] Celia Keenan-Bolger: E.

[1:09:58] Charlie Murphy: You love going for the E's.

[1:10:00] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You just throw in extra E's.

[1:10:02] Charlie Murphy: That would be like Wolvergen.

[1:10:04] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Maybe like if there was a Grenade.

[1:10:06] Charlie Murphy: My brain is like, I I don't have any idea what's wrong.

[1:10:09] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And students, and students, if you're worried that your grades aren't good enough to give you Michigan. I just want to give you a live vocal inspiration.

[1:10:16] Charlie Murphy: No, that is very hard. I've watched very smart.

[1:10:18] Celia Keenan-Bolger: If you ever play the game cranium, they make you do this very much.

[1:10:21] Charlie Murphy: Oh, sure, sure, sure.

[1:10:22] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But you can't very smart people mess it up.

[1:10:24] Charlie Murphy: Cat.

[1:10:24] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It's like cat.

[1:10:25] Charlie Murphy: It's very easy words.

[1:10:26] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I know, I know.

[1:10:28] Charlie Murphy: C exactly.

[1:10:29] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Sit the sit.

[1:10:31] Charlie Murphy: Um it's fantastic. Alright, I have a couple more questions in wrap-up. Um we chatted a little bit about this with the pandemic and your experience of it, but I'd just love to hear about like what was the experience of going through this, you know, pre-pandemic process with a show, and then coming back to that show in the pandemic or post-pandemic or whatever that the 2021 version was.

[1:10:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Did you feel like the room shifted? Like did it feel very different? If so, how? Like with so many discussions we talked about with the culture at how it was different back then, and we talked about racial uh equity and all these concerns. Did you feel a significant difference, especially coming back to a show where there was race was a a big issue and it was talked about?

[1:11:13] Celia Keenan-Bolger: It did, and I think that was sort of the main reason that I wanted to do it. I feel like because of all of the so much came to light during the pandemic. And of course, I had just finished to kill a mockingbird and was able to reflect on the ways that I was a participant, that the production was a participant in some harm, and also the ways that this is it's you know, people say, like, does it matter to win a Tony Award?

[1:11:49] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And I think the truth is it doesn't. But for me, that award gave me a little bit of um it made me feel like if I believed that things should be done in a certain way, I could say them out loud, and I wouldn't feel as self-conscious. And so I think going into that process again and really trying to position myself, I knew I wasn't gonna get fired.

[1:12:19] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so I felt like if I I wanted to make myself the best sort of ally, the best mouthpiece for the rest of the company. And because I had worked, I've worked with Bart so many times, and I had long conversations with he and Orin Wolf, who took the production over as the producer to say, like, this is the kind of environment I want to build, this is the kind of culture, this is the kind of space.

[1:12:49] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And luckily, both of them were really amazing as far as how we approached the material, but also more importantly, like how we approached making the play and then building a template that could exist for productions like the production that went on the road and the production in London.

[1:13:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Like, how are we talking about race in the room in a play that is about race? And how do the people of color who are in the minority in that production feel protected and also not um in in the performing of the show over and over and over again? There's really intense language in the show.

[1:13:33] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so, how are we building structures where they feel safe? And so I think that was my first time ever feeling a real ownership over the way that we built the thing. And um and I think you know that it was a it was good for me to sort of try that on and feel like okay so this is the way that I and you know I said to Bart I was like I think we should only rehearse five days a week.

[1:14:01] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I don't I do not think we should rehearse six days a week five days like have what we've all been through particularly as a parent like going back to the full time feels crazy. And he was like I totally agree. And we were able to do it.

[1:14:15] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So I think that in that way there was also this is like there was a crazy incident towards the end of the well it wasn't towards the end of the it was like in August of 2019 where there had been two mass shootings around the country one in Dayton one in Al Paso and in Times Square there was while we were performing the show there was a a motorcycle that backfired in Times Square and people because I think of what was happening in the country people thought that there was a mass shooting that was occurring in Times Square.

[1:14:46] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And so hundreds of people came running into the theater into the Chupette theater screaming and freaking out which then led to a a major like scare for the people in the audience but also I was on stage doing my last monologue and for many months after that happened I was having panic attacks on stage and it felt like an opportunity to go back and I I was worried a little bit like am I gonna go back on a Broadway stage and still have this like trauma living in my body of being worried?

[1:15:21] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Because even though it ended up being nothing at the time, it was really, really scary. And I was like, I don't want to find myself on a Broadway stage having a panic attack. And so it also felt like an opportunity to go back to that like really to the scene of the crime and try to reclaim that for myself.

[1:15:42] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So, in so many ways, it felt like a really healing um of a very long book that I was able to sort of like close that chapter and feel like okay, now I can go onward. I feel like I've returned.

[1:16:01] Charlie Murphy: And you know, I think it's so rare in our lives that you know, there's like some harm that goes down where we're able to like go back and try to write what happened. Um, and it I was just so grateful for the opportunity to go back.

[1:16:16] Celia Keenan-Bolger: You're giving me book metaphors as a professional. We're talking about to Kill the Machinberg, your chapters and books.

[1:16:22] Charlie Murphy: I want to chat a little bit about we talked about the parent listeners. Yours obviously did wonderfully, not only in making you get a broader education, but raising uh multiple Keenan Bolgers who've had successful careers.

[1:16:33] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Um, what do you feel like they did right? And and what kind of advice would you give to parents who have young performers who are interested in this business?

[1:16:40] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Um, what kind of advice would you give to those parents? You know, I think my parents had two things, which was that they were unbelievably supportive, but that our success was not in any way tied up with their identity, that they did not feel like whether we got a job or not, was a reflection of them.

[1:17:04] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that I mean, I think that's the truth for sports parents. That's like if you see your child having a passion, that they both of them, I don't think were living out dreams that they weren't able to fulfill.

[1:17:17] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So that was one part. But then the other part was that they just didn't have a lot of skin in the game. As far as if I think if we had at any point said, I don't want to do this anymore, they would have been totally fine with that.

[1:17:30] Celia Keenan-Bolger: And that to me feels like the biggest gift they could have given us. Which was, and then they just schlepped us around the metropolitan Detroit area.

[1:17:41] Celia Keenan-Bolger: All going to the same place, at least are you guys going together? No, sometimes different. I mean, sometimes the same, but sometimes, I mean, so much so many hours in the car.

[1:17:51] Charlie Murphy: And like that.

[1:17:52] Celia Keenan-Bolger: One is enough.

[1:17:53] Charlie Murphy: One is enough. That's the right.

[1:17:54] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That's our rule. We're cutting it off.

[1:17:56] Charlie Murphy: Same.

[1:17:56] Celia Keenan-Bolger: So much generosity in like in that respect.

[1:18:00] Celia Keenan-Bolger: I love that. That's such good advice. I remember that. My dad was not necessarily the best at the device, though he hated me, the idea of me going to theater. He was not supportive at all. You know, but he would love sports and he loves whatever. But then like as I was graduating from school, we're talking about like, do I go to LA? Do I and he was like, You gotta go to LA because I really you gotta be on TV and film that. I was like, wait a second, you weren't even into this stuff. Now you're careful. But it's like turn. Like it's very interesting.

[1:18:22] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's hard not to be invested in. I mean, I know already I feel that in me for soul high of like, well, she's gonna play basketball though, she's gonna do whatever. Like there's some certain things. I mean, of course, she'll be whatever she wants to do, but it will be a sport.

[1:18:35] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Um, yeah. Uh-huh. Um, what about two of those young artists themselves who maybe who want to grow up and be a Celia Keenan-Bolger? Anything in terms of your path, things that you feel like you did well, things that you wish you'd done differently that you would sort of give as advice to our listeners? You know, I had a professor at the University of Michigan. It's like we're bringing it really full circle as far as like college. His name was Jerry DePewett, and he on our we had a class called Sophomore performance. And on the first page of his of this like big old stack of just information and work that we were gonna do the whole for the whole semester, it said the key to success is the graceful execution of plan B. And I think that that in my career, like there is so little that you can control.

And there are so many ways that things are going to go in a different direction than what you expected, that you that you just don't have any control over. And so the real question is, what do you do with what you've been given? And I think that that to this day is something that I just really continue to try to come back to.

[1:19:46] Charlie Murphy: And it seems like maybe spelling B was plan B for you in a few years.

[1:19:49] Celia Keenan-Bolger: 100%. Like that was absolutely the first time that I think I ever was like, oh, okay, this is this in practice. I love it. Well, Celia, anything you need to plug? Are we getting more Sunday pancakes coming up? I mean, what where can we be checking you out this week? We're gonna be following you at Celia KB if we're Instagram people.

[1:20:08] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Uh I've not been on Instagram for a year in an effort to like reclaim my It's good. Follow Celia so that you get to not have as much on your feet. It's good. It's we're clearing your feet out as much as possible. You know, I'm in the beginning of so many new developing things that is both like extremely exciting to me and also from a performance driven standpoint, um, doesn't give me a lot to um pitch to you right now.

[1:20:36] Charlie Murphy: Great.

[1:20:36] Celia Keenan-Bolger: But I do feel like in six months I'll be able to say, I have this and this and this and this and this going on.

[1:20:42] Charlie Murphy: For sure. And we got a we got a podcast scheduled for five years from now where we're gonna check in on your parenting about it.

[1:20:46] Celia Keenan-Bolger: That's right. That's right. I've got that pencil down. Don't worry about it. Can't wait. Whatever this is. Celia, thanks for the time today.

[1:20:53] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Oh my gosh, it's so happy to talk to you and so grateful that you're making a place where young people can go and ha listen to these kinds of conversations.

[1:21:07] Charlie Murphy: Oh, heck yeah. That was a juicy episode. I hope you enjoyed Celia's wisdom as much as I enjoyed chatting with her. This one was chalkful of takeaways. I honestly feel like I could do a whole other reaction pod with just the takeaway possibilities. Normally I write down one or two, and I wrote down like 15 while I was listening back. So I'm gonna try to go rapid fire buffet style and hit what we can hit in as short a time as possible. Um, I'm just gonna start by underlining what she said about parents not wrapping their identities and their kids' success. Boy, is that a good note for me to hear as I embark deeper into parenthood. You know, I see how my two-year-old already reflects back exact intonation and emotions as she learns, you know, and the importance of her thinking, Elizabeth and I feel she's doing a good job as she, you know, gives herself a pat on the back and says, Good job, so I uh just the other night, she was angling for a good job after using the potty, and she tried this tactic of complimenting everything else in the bathroom. She'll be like, Good job, soap, good job, water, good job, so vi, which of course she was doing good job because of course she was a good job for trying, of course.

[1:22:10] Celia Keenan-Bolger: Um, but all of which really to say that our kids really internalize all that we do. And not necessarily all that internalization is traumatic, but it is deeply ingrained in us what our parents desire for us, right? Even if our parents don't actively press those desires into us, the weight of their expectations and their hopes is felt even when it's not articulated to the child. And I've certainly seen that with the MTCA students where I can tell they do want this, they do want this life, and they love this art form. But their primary motivation sometimes in the college process is trying not to disappoint their parents who have spent all this money and all this time and done all this research.

And now the parents are deeply investors in the process for their child. You know, it feels like an infinitely difficult line to walk as a parent to be present and supportive of your children, but not to get so wrapped up in their success that it becomes a part of their identity. And as Celia says, this is true for many things beyond theater, whether academics, sports, etc. My parents were pushing so hard with academic achievement that almost certainly turned off both me and my brother from more academic pursuits because the pressure wasn't as high to achieve what they did, right? I got to forge my own path with theater in a world they didn't understand, and that was really comforting to me compared to trying to be a world-renowned science or law professor.

[1:23:24] Charlie Murphy: I also just want to highlight what we talked about already with connections to alumni. But I think it's a point worth saying multiple times, people think reputation when it comes to school is about what other people hear when they say the name of the school. So they this idea of like, oh, if I go to X school, people will hear X school and then give me jobs. And I won't say that that doesn't exist at all if you hear a name like Michigan or Carnegie Monarch or Julia Hart or whatever, that you could potentially get in some doors. That's the most get in the doors, you're not getting any jobs. But I think people also way overrate the amount of times that even that effect will happen to their career versus the times that it'll be specific people they went to school with or specific people they know, right?

You all heard if you listened to Dan Wesher's episode, um, him founding Pig Pen with his classmates, how that directly can be true, but I think that goes back even further than things like you know, finding a going to college with a playwright who then eventually gives you a job, though that can happen, right? I love that Celia felt that the student body at Michigan were more her than the people she met at CCM. That is a totally valid way to choose where you end up. I always say the biggest distinguishing factor from school to school is the student body. Yes, of course, curriculum can differ, or faculties or you know, facilities, but when you're talking about the programs that so many of our students end up at, they're often excellent across the board, or excellent at least two out of those three things or that are most important to the student.

Where they can vary significantly is the student body. And you will learn so much more from your fellow students than your teachers when you're in college. I know that seems crazy, but it really is true. Of course, the lessons come down from the professors. Again, I'll say it again, the vast majority of which are excellent at all of these programs. But the differentiating point is the actual learning process you'll be doing in the trenches with your classmates. They are who push you and support you and guide you the most. Again, faculty and administrators and such things, they do matter, but if I had to choose one of those groups I vibe with the most, I would always choose my fellow students.

And then, again, getting back to the career point, those are the people, those will be the exact ones who give you jobs, much more than your professors will, or for the most part, then complete strangers will, until your foot is in the door, right? Some of those people who were strangers, of course, you get to know them, and then eventually they'll become friends and get people to give you jobs. But those first couple jobs out of the school, almost always there's some connection that it goes beyond just I saw you in a showcase or I saw you audition for me.

[1:25:48] Charlie Murphy: Okay, true rapid fire on the other notes of stuff I had. I did also really think that playing kids thing was so excellently put by Celia. Uh, you know, she wanted to go away from the idea of playing kids, but then she thought to herself, I guess I'm not in the position to dictate this specific thing if I want to keep working. That thinking is a really smart understanding of the economics of theater. Too often actors make this like narrative, emotional, personal decision out of what is an economic one with basic supply and demand. You know, the often you'll hear this phrase like we get promoted to our own level of ineptitude. And I think actors way too often think that way. They think, I'm getting cast as this a lot, so let me run hard in the opposite direction to people, stuff people don't want to cast me as.

And you know, it's really hard to balance that. You know, what we've been talking about, you don't necessarily want to get pigeonholed as exactly the same thing, but also to try to figure out, especially early in your career, where are you getting positive response from the energy you're putting out? You know, and I really love the way Celia talks about navigating that, you know, within one box of playing kids a lot, but then gets to play this incredible array of different characters and stories within that possible limitation. And if she had turned down Peter and the Starcatcher or to kill a mockingbird just because of the age of the character, she would actually have been the one who was limiting herself and not letting her play all the amazing roles that she got to play.

[1:27:09] Charlie Murphy: I also do just want to give a short shout out to Celia in terms of the way she talked about creators like Adam Gettle or Craig Lucas. I was talking about this with one of our MTCA coaches the other day of how many young people still don't really know storytelling creatives, but only know other performers. And while there is nothing wrong with being obsessed with a fellow performer who, you know, is an idol, it's important to pay attention to the work of art as well, especially as our attention span diminishes. You don't want to only know people from YouTube clips or God forbid TikTok reels. You want to know the whole musical and the composer, or God forbid, do we know any playwrights, right?

If you're gonna do this specific art form, it's not an art form of two-minute arcs. It is an art form of two-hour arcs, sometimes two and a half, three-hour arcs, right? And that's not to say all high schoolers need to know all of that right now, but just to put in your head, certainly that needs to be the goal for you as you go through school. So the people are listeners still in college or just graduating, is you know, Celia graduated and was ready to work with Adam Gettle and Craig Lucas because of a deep familiarity with which wasn't just like listening to mitts and hymns or whatever, right? It was this idea of I actually read these plays. I really knew these composers. And that kind of knowledge of the world you're stepping into is really important as you emerge from college. So you have an understanding of what you're going in for with one play or with this musical, this feels like it's in the style of this, this feels like it's this kind of tone, etc.

[1:28:33] Charlie Murphy: And my last takeaway, my God, I know a lot of takeaways, is just about therapy. Um, I'm hoping some of our younger listeners tend to already have therapy normalized for them. Though I'm gonna say for myself personally, it's really the last few years that I've engaged with it more than just casually and having an understanding of it, that I've sort of engaged more deeply with it. But I do think sometimes from the outside perspective, maybe some of our parent listeners are gonna think to themselves, why do all these actor types do therapy and yoga and have crystals or whatever it is? And while I can't necessarily explain the crystals or the astrology part of things, I have really come to understand the therapy part of it from an actor's perspective.

You know, it's probably good for anyone in the way that going to the gym is good for anyone, but especially for actors who need to go to the gym and maintain a server certain level of physical fitness to do eight shows a week. It takes a real mental rigor to be able to continually access these vulnerable parts of ourselves, to bring ourselves thin skinned to our characters without tipping over into being thin skinned ourselves in real life. To be able to handle the ups and downs of this business with dignity and not get washed away, but stay soft enough to be able to take these emotional journeys night to night is not an easy task. So, yes, to stuff like therapy and yoga, and not just for the core strength benefits.

[1:29:49] Charlie Murphy: Okay, that is enough takeaways for one podcast, isn't it? That was like double our usual podcast takeaways. But it was a special guest. What are we gonna do? And I have to say, we have a few more very special guests coming up, some big names and some really awesome people. So please stay tuned to your radio dials. This podcast was produced by Meghan Cordier, who deserves a five-star review if anyone on this earth does. A bit of kindness to call back the beginning of our episode. Please subscribe to us wherever you listen to those podcasts and follow us at Mapping the College Audition and MTCA on all social platforms in our show notes, including our website where you only have a few more days to get our summer faculty masterclass at a discount.

Get there, it's mtca.nyc if you want to type the fewest number of letters. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys. Can we believe we got almost through this entire episode without saying Scott Rudin's name? We'll see you next week.