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[0:10] Charlie Murphy: Hello, hello, and welcome to Mapping the College Audition.

[0:12] Charlie Murphy: I'm your host, Charlie Murphy, Director of MTCA.

[0:15] Charlie Murphy: That's Musical Theater College Auditions.

[0:17] Charlie Murphy: Check us out at MTCA.com.

[0:19] Charlie Murphy: And today we have got Matt Rodin on the pod.

[0:23] Charlie Murphy: For our newer listeners, in these artist exploration episodes, we aim to explore the paths to success that artists are forging and tease out how their theatrical training has helped them to blaze that trail.

[0:34] Charlie Murphy: And I will say, this is one of my favorite conversations that we have yet had on the pod.

[0:39] Charlie Murphy: I love how open Matt was just in the conversation and to the whole experience.

[0:43] Charlie Murphy: And I feel like we were able to really burrow down pretty deeply on a few different topics, some of which we've talked about before in the pod, and some not.

[0:50] Charlie Murphy: And I thought some genuinely interesting insights came up, some really fun stories.

[0:54] Charlie Murphy: And I really hope you enjoy the conversation.

[0:56] Charlie Murphy: Uh, as well as I do think it was pretty entertaining because Matt is very funny.

[1:00] Charlie Murphy: And also, I know all of you are dying to know.

[1:03] Charlie Murphy: Yes, we did bring back the game.

[1:05] Charlie Murphy: Matt plays games and we played games.

[1:07] Charlie Murphy: It was really fun.

[1:08] Charlie Murphy: Uh, so much to get to.

[1:10] Charlie Murphy: It's a nice long episode.

[1:11] Charlie Murphy: I would just remind our junior MTCA listeners to check out their inboxes for those spring masterclass emails that are happening online, which those have begun to roll out and make sure you're keeping your eyes peeled to your inboxes for those.

[1:24] Charlie Murphy: And also please make sure you're registered for our summer masterclass week this August.

[1:29] Charlie Murphy: It is going to be a blast.

[1:30] Charlie Murphy: And most importantly of all, when you talk about events, make sure you are planning now for a mock.

[1:35] Charlie Murphy: We know that is the most essential part of your audition toolkit.

[1:40] Charlie Murphy: We do have an early bird discount going for mocks that will not last, so plan now.

[1:44] Charlie Murphy: You can always switch your mock up to 30 days before if your schedule changes, but you're definitely gonna need one.

[1:49] Charlie Murphy: So I would plan ahead now and see which one fits your schedule.

[1:52] Charlie Murphy: And for our seniors, of course, we didn't forget about you.

[1:55] Charlie Murphy: This Thursday, I am hosting a parent panel at 9 p.m. Eastern all about sending your kids off to school and all that entails.

[2:03] Charlie Murphy: I'll be joined by four MTCA alumni parents.

[2:06] Charlie Murphy: And of course, we've got webinars that are happening throughout the next couple weeks.

[2:10] Charlie Murphy: Uh, we got webinars on final decisions, on wait lists, all these things coming up in these next few weeks.

[2:16] Charlie Murphy: You are almost to that finish line.

[2:18] Charlie Murphy: You can do it.

[2:19] Charlie Murphy: Stay with the process.

[2:20] Charlie Murphy: We love you.

[2:21] Charlie Murphy: Uh, and if you're looking for something, you know, to occupy that writer's impulse that I know is so in many of you, maybe uh toss us a little rating and review, right?

[2:30] Charlie Murphy: If you do and it's a nice one, I might just read it on the pod like this one that I'm about to read from Ginger Schroeder, who says, Is your teen looking to study musical theater or acting at the college level?

[2:42] Charlie Murphy: This podcast is a must as it dives deep into the questions you didn't know you should be asking with faculty at so many incredible programs.

[2:50] Charlie Murphy: It also talks about it talks to so many amazing artists who have gone through school and who are working professionally in the biz.

[2:56] Charlie Murphy: Okay, back to the schools.

[2:57] Charlie Murphy: We all know school websites can only provide so much info, some hardly any at all.

[3:02] Charlie Murphy: So, how do you know which schools might be a good fit?

[3:04] Charlie Murphy: This is where you begin.

[3:05] Charlie Murphy: And please listen to the very end as Charlie Murphy has the best takeaways.

[3:09] Charlie Murphy: It is the pot of gold at the end of the interview rainbow.

[3:12] Charlie Murphy: I feel sorry for parents who miss out on this free resource.

[3:16] Charlie Murphy: Nowhere else will you be able to find out a program's curriculum, what they look for, the personality of the head of faculty, their audition process, what makes a program special and more, and from your own living room.

[3:27] Charlie Murphy: For one of the biggest financial decisions of your life, please spend the time and start here.

[3:31] Charlie Murphy: Also, once you've narrowed down the schools your kid really loves, make sure they also listen.

[3:35] Charlie Murphy: Bless you, Charlie Murphy.

[3:37] Charlie Murphy: There's a special place in Musical Theater Heaven for people like you and your amazing editing staff.

[3:41] Charlie Murphy: And sorry it took me so long to write this, as I've been listening for years.

[3:46] Charlie Murphy: Ginger, that is an incredibly kind review and incredibly kind of you to say all that.

[3:51] Charlie Murphy: I often try to read these reviews in some sort of fun accent or dialect just to kind of spice it up for the listeners, but I just couldn't do that for such a touching and sincere review.

[4:00] Charlie Murphy: So from the bottom of my heart, thank you.

[4:02] Charlie Murphy: Um, I really appreciate the time you took to write it and the fact that you helped boost our pod out there to other parents and students who might have otherwise not discovered it.

[4:10] Charlie Murphy: So thank you.

[4:11] Charlie Murphy: If you are someone out there who's got a writer's itch, just like Ginger, or you want to maybe just speculate on what do you think Ginger thinks a special place in musical theater heaven might look like, or maybe what do you think it might look like?

[4:24] Charlie Murphy: Feel free to jump onto whatever podcast platform you listen to and give us a shout.

[4:29] Charlie Murphy: If you want to comment on YouTube, go for it.

[4:31] Charlie Murphy: You want to share our Instagram clips or comment there, we love it.

[4:35] Charlie Murphy: You want to write us a beautiful review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

[4:38] Charlie Murphy: I won't be mad about it, and I might just read it on the pod, whatever floats your boat.

[4:43] Charlie Murphy: Okay, now let's get on to what I think is a very boat-floating conversation with the wonderful Matt Rodin.

[4:56] Charlie Murphy: Well, we are so excited to be joined by Matt Rodin.

[5:00] Charlie Murphy: Uh, Matt has a BFA in MT with emphasis in acting and songwriting from the Boston Conservatory.

[5:06] Charlie Murphy: We'll talk about that a little bit.

[5:07] Charlie Murphy: Uh, he's been uh in Company, the National Tour of Company, alongside MTCA's own Ali Louis Borzi and the wonderful Lisey Jordan, as well as some awesome regional off-Broadway stuff, including a killer star turn in All the World's a Stage, opposite the incomparable Elizabeth Stanley, cast album just released.

[5:25] Charlie Murphy: So we're, I guess, we're telling people to go stream that thing on Spotify.

[5:28] Matt Rodin: We definitely are.

[5:29] Charlie Murphy: I need some new camera equipment, right?

[5:30] Matt Rodin: Of course.

[5:30] Charlie Murphy: I've got to.

[5:31] Charlie Murphy: Do we get paid?

[5:31] Matt Rodin: Do you get money off of that?

[5:32] Charlie Murphy: I don't know.

[5:33] Matt Rodin: You know, maybe there's something in the back end, like way, way, way down the line, but I don't, I don't know.

[5:38] Charlie Murphy: Let's imagine for all both of our sakes.

[5:39] Matt Rodin: Yeah, right.

[5:40] Charlie Murphy: We'll just cross our fingers.

[5:41] Charlie Murphy: On the dollar.

[5:42] Charlie Murphy: Just like these download episodes uh from BPN.

[5:45] Matt Rodin: No, that's sweet BPN.

[5:46] Charlie Murphy: Uh, Matt is also an awesome multi-hyphen.

[5:49] Charlie Murphy: He's done all kinds of cool stuff.

[5:50] Charlie Murphy: We'll talk about some of those different projects, the Come Up podcast himself, the Red Carpet Challenge, and currently writing a beautiful blog called The Fourth Wall, which caught my attention as a jumping off point for this very conversation we're gonna have today about authenticity.

[6:03] Charlie Murphy: Matt, welcome on the pod.

[6:04] Matt Rodin: How are you feeling?

[6:05] Matt Rodin: I'm so excited to be here.

[6:07] Matt Rodin: Thank you so much for having me.

[6:08] Matt Rodin: I'm so honored.

[6:09] Matt Rodin: I am such a fan of MTCA.

[6:11] Matt Rodin: I feel like I'm a future employee.

[6:14] Charlie Murphy: So what does that feel like to feel like a future employee?

[6:17] Matt Rodin: I wonder if it's a lot of people.

[6:17] Matt Rodin: It just feels like it feels like I'm like I've been circling MTCA.

[6:20] Matt Rodin: And so I'm like, I've set my sights and um I'm coming in.

[6:25] Matt Rodin: I've heard many things from many people.

[6:26] Matt Rodin: I'm not sure I've ever heard I feel like a future employee before.

[6:29] Charlie Murphy: I like it.

[6:30] Matt Rodin: You know what I mean?

[6:30] Matt Rodin: I'm just like, I feel I guess it what I mean is that I feel aligned.

[6:34] Matt Rodin: I feel very aligned with like your mission and what you guys do and and all the people.

[6:38] Matt Rodin: There's so many people that I just like love, like you said, Ali and Lisi and Elizabeth.

[6:43] Matt Rodin: Like, I just there's so many people aligned with the program that I love that I'm like, I feel like I'm close to being on the inside.

[6:51] Charlie Murphy: I love that word alignment.

[6:52] Charlie Murphy: It'll line up well with our authenticity conversation.

[6:55] Charlie Murphy: And we're gonna accomplish a lot.

[6:56] Charlie Murphy: So this is gonna be a job interview for Matt.

[6:57] Matt Rodin: Well, also uh we talk about authenticity a little bit.

[7:00] Charlie Murphy: Perfect.

[7:01] Charlie Murphy: And I do think let's use that as a framing device for our conversation today.

[7:04] Charlie Murphy: In the second half, I want to really dive deep into authenticity and sort of what you mean by it.

[7:08] Charlie Murphy: We'll talk about your blog a little bit.

[7:09] Charlie Murphy: Um, but first, as we do with all of our artist guests, I just want to chat through your audition journey, your early career, some of those things.

[7:16] Charlie Murphy: So we'll see where we can pepper in some of that conversation about authenticity.

[7:20] Charlie Murphy: I will say we did recently a kind of runner of a few episodes for the past couple months.

[7:25] Charlie Murphy: We were really talking about kind of discovering who you are, discovering your authentic self, so what that process is to sort of mine authenticity out of yourself.

[7:34] Charlie Murphy: Um, so this is kind of related but not identical maybe to that conversation.

[7:37] Matt Rodin: And then we'll never talk about authenticity again.

[7:39] Charlie Murphy: I know we're so sick of talking about it by listeners.

[7:41] Matt Rodin: I know.

[7:42] Charlie Murphy: Um, but also I think one of the fun things we'll try to hit is talking about that in the online world because I think that's something where you really had some experience of like posting and what that means to live authentically online.

[7:51] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[7:52] Charlie Murphy: It's a part of it now, you know.

[7:54] Charlie Murphy: It's well it and uh a different challenge than I think I had as a young actor being like, how do I be authentic in the audition room?

[8:01] Matt Rodin: Which is hard enough, but it's a different challenge of like be online of it all.

[8:04] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[8:04] Charlie Murphy: Um, but can we start off?

[8:06] Charlie Murphy: Can you give me like a little 60-second catch-up to like Matt at 16?

[8:11] Charlie Murphy: So give who where where are you living in the world?

[8:13] Charlie Murphy: What do you do in the world?

[8:14] Charlie Murphy: I know hockey is involved somehow for you.

[8:16] Matt Rodin: That's true.

[8:16] Matt Rodin: So I grew up um in the suburbs of Chicago.

[8:20] Matt Rodin: Um, this is before the Jimmy Awards had come to Chicago.

[8:24] Matt Rodin: So I was not as stressed about those at the time.

[8:27] Matt Rodin: Not Jimmy's eligible.

[8:29] Matt Rodin: I was not Jimmy eligible, which was kind of a relief if I think about it in retrospect.

[8:33] Matt Rodin: Um, but I went to a high school where uh it was a public high school.

[8:38] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[8:38] Matt Rodin: I had a great, great drama program, but no one really was pursuing musical theater.

[8:43] Matt Rodin: And so we, my parents and I were sort of perusing the internet at this time, and at that time, the only real resource was I think College Confidential, which was like a um, you're aging yourself very specifically, yeah, that's a good idea.

[8:56] Matt Rodin: Yes, I yeah, there's a certain period.

[8:58] Matt Rodin: Oh, yeah.

[8:58] Matt Rodin: Um, and we found um what we what we later came to realize was Shana Tobbs mom, Susan Taub, um was my musical theater college counselor.

[9:08] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[9:09] Matt Rodin: And uh, and again, I had no we had no idea what we were doing.

[9:13] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and so I ended up applying to oh my god, I think it was like 17 schools, 17 or 18 schools, um, and auditioning at Unifieds in Chicago.

[9:23] Charlie Murphy: So it doesn't sound like you had no idea what you're doing.

[9:25] Matt Rodin: That's just this is a lot of the things that you do.

[9:26] Matt Rodin: You did it.

[9:27] Matt Rodin: Yes, yes, and but I mean when we uh that was the nice thing about having someone like Susan was great as we had like the resources, you know.

[9:34] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[9:34] Matt Rodin: And just so you know, Matt, if you're trying to do a job interview, like you want to keep keep recommending MTCA their surfaces, not like, oh, right, right, right.

[9:42] Matt Rodin: No, but you're talking about MTCA line, of course.

[9:44] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, it's great.

[9:44] Charlie Murphy: And certainly this would have been how many years ago without aging yourself?

[9:47] Matt Rodin: You can give me a um it would have been 2010, 2009, 2010.

[9:52] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, specific time.

[9:53] Matt Rodin: Yeah, okay, great.

[9:53] Matt Rodin: Um, really specific time.

[9:55] Matt Rodin: Would have been really and that would have been very normal for that time to 17, 18 schools.

[10:00] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and and I um at the time because I had never done because my parents were really insistent on me being quote unquote well rounded.

[10:00] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[10:00] Matt Rodin: I had never done any like summer theater programs.

[10:09] Matt Rodin: I had never done um any college pro like no summer college stuff.

[10:17] Matt Rodin: I was going to an all-boys summer camp in the Northwoods of Wisconsin that was just like boys camp.

[10:22] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, um team there though, I'm sure.

[10:24] Matt Rodin: I'm yeah, correct.

[10:25] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, correct.

[10:26] Matt Rodin: Um, so you know, I I didn't end up applying to any of the like bigger schools, the bigger name schools.

[10:32] Matt Rodin: I didn't apply to Carnegie, I didn't apply to NYU, I didn't apply to CCM, but I had a family friend who went to Boston Conservatory, and so I was like, you know what, why not?

[10:41] Matt Rodin: Like, we'll just throw that on the list.

[10:45] Charlie Murphy: Correct.

[10:45] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[10:46] Matt Rodin: So I the story is actually really crazy, and I'll take your name school in itself, yeah.

[10:51] Matt Rodin: But basically, I uh the material that I had to prepare for Boco was different than any other school.

[10:58] Matt Rodin: It was like a classical monologue and a different kind of song.

[11:02] Matt Rodin: And I had a coach, but we didn't ever work on that stuff, so I kind of coached myself on that material.

[11:08] Matt Rodin: Yep.

[11:08] Matt Rodin: And then um there were no more slots because I was uh quote unquote lazy uh or just procrastinator, I didn't apply in time to like get a spot at Unifieds for Boco.

[11:21] Matt Rodin: Uh-huh.

[11:22] Matt Rodin: So I ended up like I don't even remember how it happened, but basically two days before Unifieds like a spot opened up at one of the like dance calls in bus.

[11:33] Matt Rodin: And I in in at Unifieds in Chicago at Boco, and I like got myself in and was like, oh my gosh.

[11:40] Matt Rodin: Now that was my first, it was my first audition of Unifieds, was my dance call for Boston Conservatory.

[11:45] Matt Rodin: Uh-huh.

[11:46] Matt Rodin: We were in a ballroom, as you know.

[11:48] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[11:48] Matt Rodin: And so my mom was sitting on the side of the ballroom watching the entire thing.

[11:53] Matt Rodin: And when we walked out, she famously said to me, She was like, There's so many other options.

[12:00] Matt Rodin: Like it was so clear that that was not where I was gonna go.

[12:05] Matt Rodin: Like it was it was so bad.

[12:06] Matt Rodin: Like that up there.

[12:07] Matt Rodin: I told you she was so bad that she was like, you know what?

[12:10] Matt Rodin: We just got we have so many other opportunities.

[12:12] Matt Rodin: Like so many other schools to get through.

[12:13] Matt Rodin: Like Matt.

[12:14] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, just like it's uh all good.

[12:16] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[12:16] Matt Rodin: Um and again, like had not coached any of the material for Boco, but I went in and did my thing and uh was just like there's just no way I'm gonna get into that school.

[12:28] Matt Rodin: And there it the the crazy the story gets crazier in that like I had ended up filling out like two applications with two different email addresses.

[12:36] Matt Rodin: Uh-huh.

[12:37] Matt Rodin: Try to increase your chances.

[12:39] Matt Rodin: Yeah, I guess that's how it worked.

[12:40] Matt Rodin: Um they were actually no, sorry, but there was the same email address, but I was getting double emails, so I unsubscribed from the emails, and then I wasn't getting any emails.

[12:49] Matt Rodin: So when it came time to get my like admittance or not, that Friday, um I didn't get any emails.

[12:59] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and I wasn't at home.

[13:00] Matt Rodin: I was at like the some theater competition.

[13:03] Charlie Murphy: Your mom and I told you not in, so you don't care.

[13:05] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[13:05] Matt Rodin: Correct.

[13:06] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[13:06] Matt Rodin: And you know, my parents are like furiously checking, and they go on and they log in and they check, and I hadn't finished the application.

[13:14] Matt Rodin: Now remember, I had lazy and I had registered twice.

[13:22] Charlie Murphy: So you finished neither application.

[13:24] Matt Rodin: I finished one of them.

[13:25] Charlie Murphy: Oh, okay.

[13:26] Matt Rodin: But the one that my parents logged into was incomplete.

[13:29] Charlie Murphy: So your parents get in there and they see this incomplete application, they're like, "This idiot."

[13:35] Matt Rodin: Like, are you kidding me?

[13:36] Charlie Murphy: Like, he didn't finish the application.

[13:39] Matt Rodin: But sure enough, um we ended up problem solving.

[13:43] Matt Rodin: They got into the other account, yeah, and even though I didn't get an email address, it was in there that I had gotten in. And if it was I had not visited the school, I had never been to Boston. Yeah, but I sort of on a whim was like, this seems like the best quote unquote best school on my list. I should go there.

[13:58] Charlie Murphy: You attended without visiting or you didn't visit it after you got in?

[14:01] Matt Rodin: I visited after I had accepted. I accepted. Yes, it was like after, you know, whatever, May 1st or something. Uh huh. Right? We went for a future employee, you have a lot to learn. You have a lot to learn for future. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Like that I that we did that. And thankfully, like I ended up loving Boston.

[14:22] Charlie Murphy: But did you have a sense of what the program was? Like, did you know, like, hey, this is how big the program is. This is like what you understood what was happening academically for you at least.

[14:30] Matt Rodin: Yes. Yeah. And I didn't care. Like, I don't think I was critically thinking about what I wanted out of a program.

[14:40] Charlie Murphy: Yep. It's so fair, and that's so common with our students, honestly. Like, we spend, and we have a lot of parent listeners, we definitely have student listeners too, but you know, I spend so much time being like, investigate yourself, and what do you think about this? And a lot of people are like, I don't know, like the best one that'll have me. I don't know. Like that was really how I felt is like I didn't like I knew, which is so crazy now to say in retrospect, and I like give my 16-year-old self a lot of grace, but like I just like didn't want to do Shakespeare. Like that was like the one thing, which is again like so stupid, but like the one school that asked for a classical monologue. Insane.

[15:10] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Um, but like I remember like looking at colleges and being like, they had a big, you know, like classical text, like, you know, class or whatever, and I was like, ugh. I was like, I don't want to do that, which in retrospect I would have loved and would have been so into.

[15:24] Charlie Murphy: Say you they may be coming up later on all the world's a stage quiz.

[15:28] Matt Rodin: Correct. Oh my god, oh no. Um so yeah, I went to I ended up going to BOCO and I had a great experience. I mean, it was before they merged with Berkeley.

[15:37] Charlie Murphy: Yep.

[15:38] Matt Rodin: Um, this is 2010 through 2014. Right before what about right before we were like one of the last classes. My class was like 50 something people. Um, I want to hold on, I want to get a little more to the the Boko experience, but first I just wanted to double click on two things you said. One, you said lazy. Now, is that you being judgmental yourself, knowing now you're a hardworking entrepreneur and all the things you are, or were like at 16 was it like was it pulling teeth to get you to fill out those applications? What made you sort of say you were lazy in the process?

[16:06] Matt Rodin: I that was a definitely a narrative that I told about myself and that I think my parents because they just observed that like I wouldn't get things done or I'd procrastinate that it that was sort of the narrative that it was like oh you're just lazy but the truth is I was just hyper creative and I have ADHD and so for me to focus is like a really really challenging thing. And it's funny because I actually had a conversation with my mom like a week ago and we were relating about the fact that she's like I am such a procrastinator. She's like I will if I have a month to do something it will take a month but I can get the same thing done in four hours if I only have four hours.

[16:45] Charlie Murphy: Yes.

[16:45] Matt Rodin: And I was like so comforted to be like that was me. Like that was the same yeah yeah right right that was me. So I don't think I was actually lazy I just think I lacked um just the ability to like sit down and focus yeah uh in a way that was productive which I still struggle with.

[17:01] Charlie Murphy: Of course and I I just I think it's worth I mean all my listeners are gonna be so sick of me talking about my therapy but I'm in all kinds of therapy. And I do think it's like as an adult now examining some of those labels that you put on yourself because I've always called myself lazy or someone who's hard for hard far hard for me to work hard and then like now hearing back in that adult people are like you're one of the hardest working people I know like that's so interesting. But no I'm not not naturally I know I know I'm acting like that for the past 20 years but that's me faking it. I'm that's correct that's how I feel. Yes. I'm an imposter at being a hardworking person. Correct.

[17:33] Charlie Murphy: Um, wait, the other double click I wanted to do is just what was the reasoning behind not going for some of those bigger schools? You said it's because I didn't necessarily go to a uh I didn't go to performing arts or whatever, but it's because you thought you weren't gonna get in artistically.

[17:46] Matt Rodin: Um it was uh both artistically and um like grades like IGPA academically, thank you. That's the word I was looking for. I and again, like I 2020 2020 is or retrospect is 2020, right? Hindsight is 2020. Like I give I've I'm very thankful for Susan, the one who was my college counselor, but one of the things that she sort of impressed upon us, and again, we didn't know anything, yeah, was like because I hadn't, I don't I didn't have a resume at all, uh-huh, and my grades were good, not great. I think I had probably like a three, two, a three, four or something like that. She was like, it's not worth your time to be applying to a Carn Ghee or a C CM or an NYU or a Michigan because you're not gonna get in. Which again, like I she was doing the best that she could with the information that she had, so were we.

[18:39] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[18:39] Matt Rodin: Um I don't think that that is true in retrospect. I've learned, I've come to learn a lot over the last, you know, 15 years. Um, but yeah, I just we didn't feel like it was like worth pursuing. And obviously you ended up going to a grade school, it all worked out great. But yes, certainly the fact that you got into the most competitive school, it sounds like you applied to in a lot of ways, you know, it it certainly it's it's always tricky, and I guess we're saying for our listeners' sake, like there are different levels of truth and not truth to some of those things, and that like a school like NYU, they're gonna weigh grades much more highly. A school like Michigan's gonna weigh grades highly.

Carnegie Mellon actually doesn't weigh them very highly. People think that, and so they think isn't that interesting? We're like oh, but even Michigan University it was like, oh, if the if the theater school wants you bad enough, yeah, like they'll figure it out with your grades.

[19:25] Charlie Murphy: That's right.

[19:25] Matt Rodin: And the big thing that I know sm parents think this, and it's it's really tough because if you know anything about the industry, there is a truth to like your resume is important in the industry. Like it's hard to get certain auditions if you don't have a certain resume. But certainly for this process, like if you're great in the room, you could have we we have a person about to make a broadway debut. He had two shows on his resume before he got into Michigan. Literally two shows right now. Random high school, whatever. Like it's yeah, but but understandable, and it all worked great. But let's talk, let's get to the Boko of it all. So, especially, you know, I think you are maybe only your second or third, I think maybe even second, stu um artist guests who went to Boko.

Talk about the the program. I'd love to hear sort of what your experience was, especially now you know in some other programs, so a little bit of contradistinction to other places, especially with a question of it is one of the bigger cohorts that you would look at.

[20:11] Matt Rodin: You said 50 to 60. Like class size, yeah, right, which I think it's even bigger now. Yeah, I think they're trying to bring it back down a little bit. Is it the goal, but but still it is going to be bigger than some student schools. We're talking about 12 students. And you're talking about 50 to 60 went away. I mean, I I knew that I wanted to be in the this is the other piece that I didn't mention was like I knew that I wanted to be in a city, yeah, and I knew that I wanted to be a flight away from home. Those were like my two big things was I didn't want to be a drive, and I wanted to be in a city. I didn't want to be a little bit more than a little bit. I wanted distance, I wanted to feel like I had separation from my family, and it wasn't like easily accessible, which is interesting that it's 17.

That's what I that's like what I was thinking about. But those are the two things that were sort of on my mind, and thankfully, Boko gave me both of those things, and I fell in love with Boston. I mean, I just loved being in the city, and I and I say that because I think that was such a big part of my experience at Boco, yeah, was that it was the experience of living in a city.

[21:12] Matt Rodin: Yeah, um, I was not uh a what you would call like a favorite at school, right? Like I wasn't booking a lot in terms of like the productions. Um and I really looking back, like I really struggled vocally and I had a hard time. I was good academically, I was okay. Um, but the sort of thesis that I land on pretty consistently is that like I put in so much to that school that I felt like I got a lot out of it. I worked, I was the vice president of student government from my freshman year, and then I was that role, the vice president of programming for my whole time while I was at school. I was producing, I was directing, I was doing poster design, I was doing lighting lighting design, I was assistant directing.

Like I just had to be busy and involved, and that was always true for me, even in high school, and I was thankful that we that I like forced myself to do that when I got to school. It wasn't even something I was consciously doing. I just like like having a lot of things to do. And at the time, Boko didn't have any student theater groups. That was not a part of the like just the culture. But me and my friend Alexis like started basically the first student theater company at the school because we were like, why is no one doing this? We have free space, we have free resources, we can put on Dog Sees God in a dance studio, like why not? Yeah, and I'm thankful that that has continued on, and there's meant I think there's a lot of student producing groups at school, but it was those kind of experiences that defined my college experience.

[22:52] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Because it was all about like what I was putting in, and that's what I got out. So, yes, like my school experience was good and I I'm I'm very very thankful for my education. I had a great voice teacher. I loved my acting classes. I ended up becoming an acting and songwriting emphasis, which I love both of them. That was like classical acting and uh singer songwriter. There were some musical theater writers, but I was doing like more singer songwriter. And I the other like two little pieces of context that I think are helpful to know is that by the time I was a sophomore I was convinced that like there was not really a sp space for me in the end industry. I was just I just what because I wasn't feeling um seen in terms of like the musical theater that was happening at school and my voice wasn't like the boys that were being praised I felt like maybe this isn't my thing and I went to New York on a trip with school and I saw once and I was like maybe.

[23:54] Charlie Murphy: It was like maybe there's something there.

[23:56] Matt Rodin: And so I stayed. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you flip like that back at the vo I mean and of course I don't know what your voice sounded like at 20, but my experience of you as a performer is a beautifully voiced man.

[24:06] Matt Rodin: Which I really appreciate and I I think I have learned and we can talk about this more but like I have come to uh know myself more in a way that like I pigeonhole myself as like a pop rock guy because that was the only thing that I felt like made me unique or made me different.

[24:30] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[24:30] Matt Rodin: And in the last two, three years, I've had the incredible opportunity to do multiple like theater singing jobs, which have been uh revelatory in that like I've had to come to accept myself and be like, oh, actually, like I am capable of this. And like I do my my instrument like is capable of doing these things, even if I don't feel like as confident.

[24:54] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[24:54] Matt Rodin: Um, which I definitely did not feel at school at all. I love that. Well, we're all gonna listen to the oh world all the world's a stage cast album. Give us those pennies on a dollar and listen, Matt's voice, we'll get to get a sense of uh what's going on there. Um and then the other thing I was gonna say was that by the time I graduated was was that I was actually gonna move to Chicago to be a singer-songwriter. That was what I decided. Again, I sort of felt like maybe there was space for me in the theater world, but it would at least be in Chicago. I was from there, I'd booked a U Haul, I was gonna pack my stuff and move to m move back home and basically be like Jason Moraz.

[25:27] Matt Rodin: But what happened was that because I had like fully accepted that that was my reality, yeah, in when I went into showcase, I didn't care. I was really sort of like just disillusioned. I was like, I'm gonna do the thing that I want to do, which is play guitar and sing Hollow Notes. That's what I want to do. But because I had that attitude, and because I had released the attachment, which I think will this is tying to this authenticity conversation. This is a professional podcaster. He segues this. You know, like I was not attached to the outcome.

[26:00] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[26:00] Matt Rodin: I went in and was myself really, really purely. Yeah, and I got more responses than any of the other boys in my class, which was shocking to me and also my teachers. Yeah, but it was because it I was doing something different and I was being myself. And I ended up getting an agent, moving to New York. They were like, when can you be here? I was like, I guess June 1st.

[26:22] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[26:23] Matt Rodin: And I moved to New York. Um, and the rest is history. There's so many stories I could tell, but but I in terms of the college experience, like that was sort of the arc of it.

[26:34] Charlie Murphy: I love that. And and we'll we will I want to hear some of those stories from career wise too, but just also underlining that's that bit of the authenticity, which it's sort of like screw it authenticity, which I think we've heard so many examples of that where someone's like, you know what? I'm just like, I'm not that that thing, so I'm just gonna do this thing, and then they get these great results. I mean, I've told that was my showcase experience of in New York City. I felt like I was so trying to be something else, which wasn't even such a like not even so different from myself, but just it was I was trying to match this thing that my teacher was trying to tell me, and this is how how the industry is gonna perceive me in this way, and there's a uh, you know, it's like like a a list of words, and then I didn't have the best response.

I didn't feel great about it in LA. I did completely different material, and I was like, I'm just gonna do like what I think is really good, and like who cares if I if it seems a little bit arrogant, who cares if it seems whatever and then I got this amazing response. So it's like that that weird thing.

[27:25] Matt Rodin: I mean, we've heard that again and again from people who go through a process and go the eff it, whatever corollary of like I'm just gonna be myself. It's not the only way to be yourself, but it's certainly successful. I'm sure that's hard too in auditions, like showcase is one thing, but I feel like especially with college auditions, I'm sure that's like really hard to do because you there is a specific outcome that you're looking for. Like there is something you want. You do care. You do care, and you also are like inherently thinking about like what the school is looking for, right? Like, that's challenging. It's really challenging, but of course, the more you can find that for yourself. We see the lower stakes auditions.

The one that you didn't coach went great, maybe maybe not the dance audition, but we'll see if you're my favorite. Right, right. But the one you didn't coach went great in some ways, you're like, I just screw it, I'm just gonna do it. Like, I'm just gonna, this is my my college. That's so much right anyway, you know. Yes, right. Just like trust my instincts and do my thing. And the idea that they don't really know what they're looking for. I mean, it's impossible to ever care to release all bit of care of do they like me, what are they looking for? What do I think? But totally, you know, the same way that you do in Hollow Notes, it's like I don't know that's what I was looking for, but I love it.

It felt cool. Like, that's true at the college level, it's true at every level in life. Yeah, you know, Elizabeth walked in the door, she wasn't who I was expecting or wanting to fall in love with, but she was herself and I fell in love. Like it's like that experience in life of like you be something uh that is you, and it gives me a chance to then fall in love with you as opposed to trying to be what I think you want me to be, or all those things. Well said.

[28:48] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, well, yeah, much more authenticity you want to, but I want to jump back a little bit to mom and basically just talk about your parent relationship through the process. You said both parents were eagerly checking the portals and those kind of things. Uh how was the parent guidance through the process and my parents. I give them so much credit because they you know, there's a very famous story. There's a couple famous stories, but one of the things. You keep saying famous, but you mean life famous, like famous in your family, to be clear. Yeah, that's what I mean. Right, yeah, famous in my family. You know what I mean? Like those stories. Everyone's already one. It's a famous story in my family, in that like it I've heard it so many times, or my parents have told me so many times, but like, you know, that I was like crying on their bed being like, I just don't want to be an accountant.

And my parents were never forcing me to be an accountant. And if anything, they were really like they were willing. Like the fact that they were willing to to let me go do this and and just pursue musical theater as like a degree, yeah, was a crazy thing to ask them. They had zero experience, they knew nobody. Yeah, and my parents tell the story that they were sitting like in a stairwell at um at Palmer House in Chicago, being like, What the fuck have we done? Like, what did we do? What what are we doing? Because again, they were just so out of body, they had no one guiding them. Yeah, they had no community, they were completely on their own, surrounded by these parents that are you know, it's like toddlers and tiara.

It's like there are parents on top of their kids, and my parents are kind of like, We drove you down here, like I don't know what else to do. But we tried to make you do twice the applications you needed to do. I we did our best. I don't know what the problem was. So it was it they were both like super encouraging in the in the sense that like they were willing to let me do it. And again, I told you like they were really insistent on me being well-rounded, right? They were like, You're gonna play hockey growing up, you're gonna go to all voice camp. Like, theater's not gonna be the only thing that you do. But if this is the thing you want to pursue, then like sure, like we are not gonna force you to apply to these schools where like it's gonna be your minor.

Like, if you want to go to a conservatory, like, yeah, we sure okay. Yeah, um, so yeah, they were invested, but as much as they could be, they just didn't, they had no no con they still have no context, yes. Um, more now, but but you know, it's like we're all we were all just like figuring it out together, and I I I have so much more like appreciation and grace for them in now that I'm in my 30s, like looking back, being like, You guys had no idea. You guys did great.

[31:18] Matt Rodin: Well, let's say it now for the Rodin family, but also really to so many of our parents out there have like you're doing great, like experience because that that Palmer House experience, and it could be true at Pearl for New York City, and if it's whatever it is just the experience of like, oh my god, this seems insane. Am I crazy that this seems crazy? Like, so many of our families have had that experience. Yeah, and I think have this very particular thing that happens, at least this happened to me is when I become a parent, where they're like, I'm doing so much more for my child than anyone ever did for me. Like I'm crushing it. Like I did some damn good. Like I watched my some type parents, and I used to, before I had kids be like, what are they looking for in this moment?

And it's like they're looking for a kind of credit almost to be like, we did something wild, right? Like our parents like shoved us outside and did what? That's I feel sometimes emotionally for my child. I'm like, I am giving an emotional space and an understanding that I'm like, my parents. I never had this yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I I give them so much credit for like just even being willing to let me go do those college auditions, which was a crazy thing. So at the time. Good good that good on you, Rodin's and good on you. All these parents who are making it happen as you're feeling this. Let's get into some of the professional stuff.

[32:25] Charlie Murphy: So you you hit the ground running, you got the agent, maybe more unexpected to the rest of your classmates and to yourself in some ways. But what was that early career success in terms of how did the experience of now moving from Chicago to Boston? Now you come to New York City. How did that hitting the ground running?

[32:39] Matt Rodin: Yeah, I I kept that theme of like doing all the things uh running pretty much from the get. I knew that I couldn't come to New York and do nothing. And so I found an internship at 54 Below, and it paid a hundred dollars a week, and it was a full-time internship. So I was working in the office nine to five, and then whoever was performing that night at 54 Below, which was a lot of times multiple shows, I was their assistant for the night. So I was getting them water, I was getting them coffee, I was taking them up and down the elevator. And the reason that I did that was because I wanted to be in the business. I wanted to be immersed in the industry. I didn't know who I would meet, I didn't know what it would lead to, if it would lead to anything, but I at least felt like I would have be around the thing that I was hoping to be a part of.

And it was true, and it worked. Um, and I ended up meeting so many people. My my one of the first people I met was Leslie Margarita, who's become like a dear friend of mine. And so we've known each other for over a decade now, which is crazy. But I also ended up meeting this guy named Michael Joya, who at the time was working as a writer at Playbill. And many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many months later, when I started making content on my own, uh, because you gotta think this is 2004. So um we're sort of in this YouTube era. Um I'm thinking, well, I should be having a YouTube channel. I should be making content for myself. Like that was always sort of a part of my, you know, ethos.

Um and I started making content and I made this piece of content um where I basically went down the street from the opening night of Something Rotten. I don't know what gave me the guts to do this. And I interviewed random people on the street about Shakespeare, if it was like Shakespeare or made up, yeah, and or what Shakespeare play it was from, and you know, get thee to the White Castle and people played, and the video got like a thousand views, and I was like, oh my god. But three months later, Michael, who I met working at the D4 Below, um reached out to me and was like, Hey, I showed this to my editor-in-chief of Playbill. Like, would you want to come do this for Playbill? Oh, yeah. Which it's funny because now that's all that anyone does, right?

That's like everybody plays games at all these outlets, but that was not a thing. Like Billy on the street was sort of just starting to happen. And um, and in the midst of all this, I should say, like, I booked my first professional job after my internship of the D4. I ended up doing um Next to Normal at Baltimore Center Stage. I got my card doing that because I was not a member of the union. I'd never done uh I didn't do summer stock while I was in college. I went to this all boys camp. I kept going to this camp while I was through college. So I got my card doing Next to Normal in Baltimore. Um and again, I kind of worked like randomly regionally uh over the next however many years, six, seven years.

Yeah, hoping that you know, uh at some point I'd book a job in New York or uh these other things that I was doing, these red carpets that I was playing, this other content that I was making would turn into something.

[33:27] Matt Rodin: And I ended up moving from Playbill after a year, moving from Playbill over to Broadway.com, which was great. They were offering me five hundred dollars video, and I was like, Oh my god. That's what I made in a month and a half of it. Correct. So I was like, this is great. Um they were like, we'll give you an editor. So anyway, I moved over to Broadway.com and uh at some point I was enjoying the this content piece so much that I kind of was slowing down auditioning, and the idea of like going on a national tour to play a really minor supporting role was like just not as enticing for me. And so my agents ended up dropping me, and I was working, and then I ended up working full-time at Broadway.com as a producer.

I really was not auditioning at all. There were some readings that I was doing, the show Bo that I we did off Broadway last year at that time was still a part of my life, and so like there were readings of that going on. Yeah, but I was working full time for a year and a half. I worked a full time job. Your drop down the hyphens for you of correctly, but you're absolutely an actor, but it's not the thing primary anymore. Correct, and and I sort of and I certainly always hoped that that would bump up. I I I love I've never used that, Charlie, and I'm gonna use that forever. Like it bumped down in the hyphens, and I always hoped that it would bump its way back up, but at that time I was like accepting that like this is what it is and this is where I am.

[37:01] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[37:02] Matt Rodin: And uh at the end of 2000, like late 2019, I decided that I like or like mid probably, I decided that I couldn't do this nine to five anymore. It was like absolutely killing me. I got an agent from the red carpets. Uh huh. I had met a many of her clients doing these red carpet games, and she was like, You're so cute, you're so fun. Like, are you repped? And I was like, no. And so I met them, I signed with them, and then I got this random audition for Hedwig and the Angry Inch out at this theater in Milwaukee, Milwaukee Rep. I thought there's no way I'm gonna get this, they're gonna hire a famous drag queen. I've never done drag. I yeah, I don't know the show, and I taped and I and I ended up getting it. And I found out later that a big part of the reason why I got that job was because the director went and watched all these red carpet videos and was like, he can improv. Like this is exactly the type of person we're looking for. Yeah.

[37:59] Matt Rodin: So again, like those opportunities were were compiling in ways that I couldn't have predicted.

[38:05] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[38:05] Matt Rodin: And then by the time that show closed, it was March 9th of 2020. And then four days later, the world shut down.

[38:13] Matt Rodin: Yeah, and I wasn't performing anymore. I ended up working full time again, running marketing for this guy, Simon Sinek, who's a speaker and author, wrote this book called Start With Why, which I would recommend to anybody who's trying to understand um what they do, why why they do what they do. And I think it's actually really helpful for people in RGB.

[38:32] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, we had an MTCA in this podcast, Matt. We're not trying to advertise.

[38:34] Matt Rodin: Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. But I do think but I do think but I do think it's valuable uh in terms of thinking about right, we're we're talking about authenticity, like figuring out why you want to pursue this. Yes, I think that uh philosophy that I learned from Simon was so helpful in like reframing my career and the business for myself.

[38:52] Charlie Murphy: Maybe inspiring writer a little bit more because it seems like as a producer you already were writing.

[38:56] Matt Rodin: I mean producers are writers but like I didn't even think about that but you literally writing the way you're writing a blog right totally.

[39:02] Matt Rodin: So I ended up running like marketing for his company for a year and a half. I worked full time through the pandemic which was such a blessing that even though there was no theater going on I had a full-time job and that was because of relationships that I had made and freelance work that I had been doing as a content producer prior to the pandemic while I wasn't while I wasn't on a job or doing a show I was making content for people. I was shooting video content around the city. I was doing cryptography yeah it was just like doing creative projects and getting hired by friends or people that were like oh I know this person then if you need someone to shoot video like so anyway all that added up by the time the pandemic sort of was like dwindling down we filmed Bo, the show that he did off Broadway we filmed a movie of Bo, uh which was great.

And then I was auditioning again and freelancing again and sort of doing you know, there were no more I wasn't doing red carpets because there weren't really any shows opening and Broadway.com had sort of shifted directions and then I auditioned for Rent at Paper Mill and I got Rent at Paper Mill which was a crazy blessing and then I booked the National Tour of Company which was also a crazy blessing and not expected in at all and again was so different from anything that I had done you know, Rent, Hedwig, Hair, uh Next to Normal, those are all living in like the pop sensible world, and and Sondheim was so not in my wheelhouse, but I was like, why not? I'll give it a shot. And I worked really hard and I ended up getting it, which was crazy. And then yeah, did the tour, came back.

[40:34] Matt Rodin: Um, and when I got back from tour, I needed something to do. And I had done over the course of all these years, I've been doing content, of course. Like you said, I did a podcast. Yeah, but I got back from tour and I was like, I need something else, and what's something that's easier than a podcast, as I know you know, um, is a newsletter. I was like, I do both I do a blog and a podcast, Matt. That's crazy.

[40:56] Matt Rodin: That's crazy, but but but uh but a one-person podcast production is a lot of work, but a one-person newsletter, I was like, this feels like more feasible.

[41:05] Matt Rodin: Yeah. And so I started writing um a little over a year ago, and then ended up randomly booking All the World's a Stage with Elizabeth, which was like a crazy blessing.

[41:14] Matt Rodin: Bo, the show that I've been working on for eight years, yeah. That had been sort of percolating for so long. We had two productions last year. We were off off Broadway, and then we moved off Broadway, uptown, and um, yeah, and I was writing through all that. So it's been it's been a crazy 12-ish years. I've done so many things, and I'm grateful that I've done so many things. I think they've all fed each other in ways that I can't predict, can't understand, can't know. Yeah, some of those things have been really evident, but most of the time I feel like that stuff works underneath the surface. Like I think a big part of like the reason why I collaborate the way that I do is because of the creative work that I've done.

Right? Like all those things add up in ways that we can't really tell. And I again, like it connecting it back to the college stuff, like I was doing that through college. Yeah, you know, I was I was I've continued that theme through my whole life, and I'm it's it's been it's been great. I I that was it's so fun to hear that that's sort of said in that way, and it also always makes me think to myself, I'm like, when I'm like, let's talk about this, sometimes it's like, but let's actually talk about it. What I'm hearing back is uh uh yes, well when I want to talk about authenticity and we're going to, but also just hearing the spirit of entrepreneurship that you had, which maybe, and um I'm probably gonna do this as a little bit of a takeaway, but maybe is inspired by some of the frustrations at Boko. Maybe that moment at you at 20 going, you know what? I don't know that there's a place for me in this business. Some part of you goes, I have to carve the thing out. I have to do it.

[42:40] Matt Rodin: A hundred percent. That's so well said. I totally think you're right that like I just was never one, you know, my parents uh every few months have to sort of talk me off the ledge and be like, you've created all of your own opportunities. Nothing has been handed to you. Yeah. And as hard as that's been, um, it's refreshing to be like, right, like I have since college, I have been carving my own paths. Starting clubs. And and and I'll just say uh from everything beyond the college process, I certainly wouldn't attribute that word lazy to you from what I've heard. This is not a lazy thing. Right. Um, but I do think that's it, it's really, you know, sometimes people hear, oh, you have you're gonna have to create all your own work and and they go, oh no, but is that true?

Some people like they booked this Broadway show, and then of course that's true that different people are gonna have different paths, but totally do you think anyone who's gonna have a long career in this business is going to have moments of time where they are not actively being given jobs, and so you're gonna create some of those hyphens, whether you call the mother artistic hyphens like producer or like writer or barista or something, or whether you just go, I for this period of time I was doing this or I was spending this money while it's like realistically you're gonna have other pursuits because most people do not go job to job to job to job. Which if you can, I'm like, that's great for you. I mean, the thing I realized uh really over the last couple months, something like hit me that like there's just there's sort of like two lanes.

[43:58] Matt Rodin: Yeah. One lane is you can like wait for opportunities and you can certainly do that. And there will be people that are doing that, just auditioning and waiting for something to come to them. And then there will be people who are writing their own work, making their own content, doing their own thing. And by the way, there will always be people doing both of those things. So you get to decide who which you want to be. You you you can be a person that just waits for opportunities, but also there are gonna be people that are making their own stuff and forging their own paths. And if you want to do that, that is available to you.

[44:31] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Um I absolutely love it. All right let's take a quick break and then we're gonna come back to this question on authenticity a little bit more after the break. So back in a flash.

[44:39] Charlie Murphy: All right, we are back with the authentic and entrepreneurial Matt Rodin. Um we're gonna dive a little bit deeper into that question of authenticity. I'd love to kind of first looking back on what we just were talking about where is your where were you in your journey of like how not to give yourself an authenticity grade but how authentic do you think you were in terms of feeling like authentically yourself at 18 doing the college edition process. How how how was your journey from 18 through college into early career now? And now we'll talk about your understanding of authenticity now but how do you feel like you did uh on that journey of what you've described so far in terms of feeling like whatever an authentic self would be.

[45:09] Matt Rodin: Yeah wow that I you know there is a part of me that wants to be like I didn't know myself at all. Um but I also think that I f was doing the best that I could. I'm like, I'm I'm looking back and being like, I was being true to myself or who I thought myself to be in those moments. Yes. That was something I was always striving for was to find the most true essence of who I am and like bring that to whatever I was doing. And even if that's different than who I am now or who I understand myself to be today, um, I do think I have to give myself credit for being like, I think I was doing, like I said, I think I was doing the best I could. Yeah. And I was I did have that as a North Star. Like that was a pursuit of mine. I was seeking to find a truth about myself and bring that to whatever it was that I was doing, even if that's different than who I am now.

[46:13] Charlie Murphy: I love that description of it. Having that as a North Star. I mean, we of so often talk about it is a journey too. It's not like you arrive at a place of ah, and I'm authentic now, right? So it's a pursuit of that we're trying of discovery. You know, so it's so often schools are like, tell me who you are, and kids are like, I don't know who I am. It's like you don't have to know all the answers to the who you are. You just gotta be wrestling authentically with that question of like, this is what I think I am at 17 years old in March and whatever, like that's me now, I think. Today, right.

[46:40] Matt Rodin: Exactly. And I I and I think it can be as simple as, and my husband and I talk about this all the time. He's an agent, by the way. So he I have such an interesting, I think an interesting perspective on the business because I understand the business side of the business in a different way, because he is a talent agent. Yeah, and one of the things that him and I talk about a lot is that like even just saying, like, these are the shows that I'm watching right now, like the fact that Charlie and I, you are talking about like Survivor earlier, like Married last night, yeah. Like, even that in and of itself, it does tell me something about who you are, right? Like, I there's something that like I know you like strategy, you think about things that way, right?

[47:16] Matt Rodin: The food. Right. Like it like it it does tell us something. And so, like, that is to me like the most basic version of it, right? That like even just your interests, the foods that you like, yeah. Like those things are a great like simple starting place for when it comes to like what is true for you, what is authentic for you today.

[47:37] Charlie Murphy: Yeah. Something as simple as like the foods you eat, the shows you watch, the music you're listening to, right, the things that you're interested in, that can be like the jumping off point for authenticity. Little clues in that direction.

[47:48] Matt Rodin: Yeah. And I also do really think, I mean, uh, you know, often I'm talking to people who are older than 17, though sometimes we have have alumni who are 18, 19 who've just gone through the process on the pod. But I I'll just throw out there, I don't think that necessarily 30 year olds or 40 year olds or 50 year olds are any more authentically themselves in 17. You know, at times I have definitely felt like it is a journey that I'm trying to get back to a version of myself that felt more pure authentic. Totally. Man, I really knew myself then and I was more confident. I didn't know enough not to be confident, so can I find some of that again? You know it feels like a cyclical journey in some ways but not not something where I'm like oh man once you're 40 you're really authentically yourself. Like right let's like we were saying like you don't land there. I think it is like it's about the pursuit of it and just trying to like like you said like ask the question. You know what I mean?

[48:34] Charlie Murphy: Um talk me through a little bit of of your blog. I mean I I really enjoyed I wanted to talk about two different blog posts but we as we were reading that sort of you know authentically you sort of um blog post uh what was the sort of conclusion what was the inspiration to write that or what I'd love to kind of hear like you know you gave me some some thoughts on it already but just was there a thesis and what was sort of the what is the conclusion some of what you got to at least.

[48:38] Matt Rodin: Yeah so listen, I mean, I think it's helpful. Helpful context is that like this newsletter, which is called the fourth wall, basically I started because I wanted a space to like talk about theater marketing. That's how it started. But what I found was like I was experiencing things week to week. And this was like in rehearsal rooms that I was in, also was like as a person living in the world, right? I was like experiencing things like happening in culture, right? Like the um the Dali musical casting or Queen of Versailles closing. Like these were things that were happening in the culture that I was uh having thoughts and and conversations about, but I had this space, I've had this space where I can process things out loud.

Uh-huh. And so by the time uh like like I had done the the the inspiration for this authenticity piece was that I hosted a panel. Um I got asked to host a panel at Braway Con. Yeah. And it was about the balance of being online and being on stage. And like what does it mean to be a person that's on stage and online? And it was a panel of people that were sort of all in that camp. And it was a really interesting conversation. And I was really thankful that I got to be the one to sort of guide it and host it. And I took the transcript from that conversation and I sat with it and I read through it and the sort of through line that came uh came out for me was just this idea of there's this question always, especially now about like how do we show up authentically online, right?

We talked about this that like being showing up as yourself in an audition room is one thing, but how do you show up as yourself online when you are inherently performing, right? Like posting something online is a performance. Which an audition is too. So like, how do we bridge that gap?

[50:57] Matt Rodin: And the the thing that I sort of extracted from the entire conversation of this panel was that like over and over again, people were saying it was when I wasn't trying to uh make something groundbreaking. It was when I was just being honest. It was the most raw, pure uh I don't even want to say distilled because that sounds like there's a process involved. Like it's the quickest from thought to action, like the the shortest distance from there to there, those were the things that were connecting with people on the other side of the screen the most. And so perhaps, again, like I'm always it's always about a question. That's that's sort of what the newsletter has become. Yeah, is I'm sort of always wrestling with a question. And the question was like, what how do you do that? How do you release expectation? How do you uh show up raw truthfully when you are in a space that is inherently performative? How do you do that?

[52:02] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, how how you how have you found because you've you are also we should say you were a very successful creator yourself in the TikToks and the Instagrams and the online. I guess so. I guess so. How how how have you I mean, is it just random luck? Oh, this was an unrefined one, and that one was great. Like, how have you found if there's a version of and let's stick in the online world, I want to talk audition too, but in the online world, is there a version where you're like, hey, on Mondays when I get up and brush my teeth and do this and that? Like, where have you found success in your raw, your truthful, your unreal?

[52:35] Matt Rodin: I mean, listen, I again, like, as I we talked about the story, like, you know, I've been making content for 15 years. Like, I was I was even making content through college, and I have wanted to be a creator, influencer, or whatever you want to call it for a really long time, and I would put so much energy and effort and thought into every single piece that I was making, which by the way, I think there's so much value in that, especially as theater people. I think it that's part of what we like to do. We like the process and I find a lot of value in the process, but the thing that really has sort of tipped the scales for me, or the thing that I'm working on now is like when I feel inspired or when I have a thought, uh, can I just share that thought?

Like, is there a way that I can just speak it from the space of I I don't know how to say this, like it it I have to capture the like it's like lightning in a bottle. It's like whatever the energy, the most pure version of the energy is, if I can again, it's about that distance from idea to action. Like I'm gonna have the most energy around this thing when it's in that early phase. The more that I wait and the more that I think about it, and the more that I try to cull and craft and I've gotten far I've gotten further from the essence of the thing.

[54:10] Matt Rodin: Yeah. And so my my task for myself now is like, can I just when I have an idea, execute, or when I have an idea, speak it, and not feel the need to edit or make it the most engaging, or come up with hooks, or you know what I mean? And again, I I I want to be clear, I see a lot of value in that process too. There's so much value in the process of creation. That's why I love being in theater. I love that process. Rehearsal or whatever. It's it's so interesting. It feels like, and some of this feels like I love the way you're framing it now, and I invite people to go read the blog too. And seems like some of the conclusions of the blog in terms of like the value of repetition as a form of release.

[54:56] Matt Rodin: I wonder if this is how I'm sort of hearing it now as you say it. It's like you're almost talking about two different forces that get in the way of like right now the time, the time in the how quick you are to from the first initial impulse and authenticity of what this thing feels real. There's like a tyrant of you the director, you the editor, who's you adding technique or adding you know, flavor and sauce to it that could now make it not real. It feels like there's the other end of things, which is like a certain amount of naivety or a certain amount of lack of technique. When now this is maybe more into the theater world, but it's like the blending of those two things is it's like having enough technique to not over direct yourself, enough trust.

You know, we talk about structure and freedom. In some ways you're talking about that. It's like enough structure that you go, I know I can just speak because I know it'll be there, as opposed to if you really don't know that, and you're then your nerves are the things in the way, and there's all these other and your naivety is in the way or whatever. It seems like those two countering forces.

[55:52] Charlie Murphy: Totally. And again, like I think this is so tied to auditioning too. Like, it's like my job is to prepare. Like, I need to do, I need to sing "Not Getting Married Today" five hundred times because so that when I walk in the audition room, yes, I am not thinking about those words.

[56:08] Matt Rodin: Yes. I am just in that moment. Prepared enough to be free.

[56:12] Charlie Murphy: Correct. Yeah, correct. It's I think it's worth saying that to young people because they hear a lot of and there is a lot of value. It's so obvious in some ways the ways that we choreograph ourselves into being bad. The ways that we like it's you can just sort of see like, oh, that's bad coaching. And you go, okay, yep, I see the bad coaching. It's stopping you from being good because it's a shellac over top. But then I think sometimes people think the solution is like just come in and like I have no idea what I'm gonna say. And it's like, well, that doesn't work either, too, because then the tyrant in your mind is the nervous person who goes, What are my lines again? Like, yes, we all know anyone who's on self tapes, you you can there's a certain thing which is like, man, I could do this well, except I don't know the lines well enough.

[56:51] Matt Rodin: A hundred percent blocking me into it.

[56:53] Charlie Murphy: Yes. Yeah, yes. And I think, yeah, it I'm so like I'm so jazzed and energized by this conversation because I think it there is a sweet spot, like there is a sweet spot between the preparation and the freedom. Like we have to have the preparation so that we can be free, because the shellac is so obvious, yeah, right. But I can't be without that unless I've done it enough times to get to a place where I feel confident and comfortable, not even consciously competent and comfortable. Yes, just like comfortable in the moment of being like, no, I trust what I'm gonna say or I trust what I'm gonna bring into that room, which I will say, Charlie, like I in the last three years, like that's what has been the biggest gift for me in my acting career too, is that now I have confidence in my ability where I'm like, oh, it's not about whether I'm good enough.

That's that is for me, that's not a question anymore. But that's which is which is a wonderful thing. There was a long time that it was that for me, and now it's not a question of like, am I good enough? It's like, no, like, did I prepare? Yeah, and now, like, am I what they are looking for? And it's not deep on your ego of like, am I a gold star kid or not a gold star? It's like, well, I booked this job or not. It's still tough, but it's not as like I want the job. Yeah, no, it's like I know that I'm good enough. So now it's like, okay, can I prepare myself enough to then go in there and do a good job? Like, do I do like did I was I fun to be within the room? Like, did I have did I have fun? Did I make them have fun? Like, did we laugh? Like, was it a fun experience? That's the win.

[58:30] Charlie Murphy: Well, and talk about some of the labels that we're taking off the hip freeze therapy today, Matt. We're taking off lazy from you, and we're also to we gotta take off the label of the kid who is uh well, I wasn't one of the favorites at focal. They they I'm not one of the I'm not one of the boys who sounds the way you're supposed to sound in MT or whatever. Like that that it sounds like in some ways you've removed that already, but that's a painful and onerous process to take off yourself. Of like, once that gets slapped on, it's like stuck there and in it's it's seared on you, and you have to like really tiny removes. It's really, really hard.

[58:59] Matt Rodin: I mean, listen, every audition that comes in, I go through that process where I'm like, there's no way it's gonna be me. I could name you 10 people who are better for this than me. Your mom already told you not a dancer.

[59:08] Charlie Murphy: Right, exactly. That's been branded into you. It's like that's hard to take away.

[59:13] Matt Rodin: That's right. Even though that's why you did a great step touch in "All the Worlds a Stage."

[59:16] Charlie Murphy: Thank you very much. I did a big dance number in "All the Worlds a Stage." I had a big dance number at "All the Worlds of Stage."

[59:21] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Um high dance musical.

[59:24] Charlie Murphy: I'm just gonna say it wasn't high as not quite, not quite. But even you know what, it's like even company, like there was a lot of choreography in company, and uh like being like, no, I'm capable and like I could do this, and like I learned, and I knew that I was like, if I have the time, like I can learn this choreography, like I'm gonna I'll be fine. I'm not gonna make a fool of myself.

[59:41] Matt Rodin: Yeah. Um I love that. Um I I'd love to kind of talk a little bit, you know, because now talking about the audition room and talking about the this, you know, especially what our students go through, because it's confusing. We say go walk in there, be yourself, which of course is the goal walk in there, be yourself, share who you are. How do you think about authenticity in terms of like the authenticity of my acting when and let's maybe stick with a college process where you're playing characters that are that are you, but not exactly you. It's you in imaginary circumstance, right? You're bringing in songs and monologues where we're seeing you, but you're in the world of the play, or you can maybe be in a world that's slightly different than the play, but you know, it's like we don't actually think it's Matt talking when you're giving the monologue, but we really encourage you, certainly from the coaching perspective. I should hear Matt's voice. I should hear, I should get a sense of Matt through the character. But how do you think of those questions differently?

[1:00:27] Matt Rodin: Because also in the college process, they do do things like interview and well I was gonna say, Charlie, that's what I was gonna say is I actually think about it now, which is so funny because I like I need to hear myself say this. Like it's everything around the piece. It's all the stuff around the piece because it is, and I know that we people say this all the time, but it really is like the moment I walk into it. Yes, that is a huge that that I'm already that is that is the audition. And now for me, I'm thinking about like I want the room to feel like rehearsal. That's what I want to feel like. I want I want to get a sense of what it's like to be in a room with you, and I want you to get a sense of what it's like to be in a room with me.

Yeah, and that includes the work that I do, of course, right? But it also includes the conversation before, the conversation after, the questions I ask, the way I respond to your notes. But the way how about the way that I get into my piece? Right? The way that you ask me for what I want, or you want me, what what you know, all of those things, like can am I, am I being true to who I am? Because I have done, and I will say, like, part of the difference I think between like me pre-pandemic and me post pandemic is like I used to go in rooms and try to be what I thought they wanted me to be. Uh-huh. And I got, and sometimes I got the job. Right. And what kept happening to me was we would do the rehearsal process and we would get to tech, and the director would pull me aside and say, You're not doing what you did in the audition.

Uh-huh. And I kept being like, what is wrong with me? Like, something is wrong with me. But what I realized was that like I was going in these rooms and doing something that wasn't true to me and wasn't what like, and of course you're gonna find things in the process of like rehearsals, but I was going in the rooms and doing something that was what I thought they wanted. And then when I got the job and I was doing what I would do, which is like being myself, it wasn't the thing that they had seen. Yeah. And there was a disconnect. And so now I'm like really adamant about going in the room and this is what I would do. This is what I would do on this piece, but also how I would behave in a rehearsal room.

[1:02:45] Charlie Murphy: I love that. Because that is what you're gonna get. It's I I've heard the story on the pod before. It's a sort of a uh uh joking unlock for me, but it really the version of that is like uh one of my favorite directors I would work with a lot would would sometimes be like, Charlie, like what are you doing? Like, what's going on? Like, if he's like, this isn't working, or whatever. I'm like, you cast me. It's on you. Like I wasn'm on the line about who I was. If you didn't like this, you shouldn't have cast me. But like, there's something true of like, can you if you can bring that sense of like, this is what I'm this is my of course, I'm gonna work with you. I'm not gonna be stubborn and make my choice no matter what you say, but I'm gonna bring my artistry and it'll look like this.

And I hope I want to work. I want to know what the note, like, I want to see how you give me notes, and actually, like, let's see if I actually respond to your notes because there are some directors whose notes like I really respond to, and there are some directors who are trying to get something out of me, but they can't, but it's because like we're our wires are crossing, like we're not quite on the we can't quite communicate in the right way. Pivotal and way easier said than done when you're talking about the Broadway show and it's uh financial thing. But so that I think is important in every aspect of the career, and you should think of it in all those ways, but even more in when you're talking about a college process where it's like I'm gonna train here for four years.

What's this training gonna be like? Like because it doesn't do you value to just have the most competitive program that I'll have you. Like, that's not the goal, isn't just like if you go, I don't fit with these people, but I show them an example of myself that they liked, like, you actually wouldn't. But is it true to who I am? Right, like that's like then that's four years of you pretending to be someone you're not, like, oh my god, like that's a nightmare.

[1:04:15] Matt Rodin: And I will say again, it's about the release and repetition, right? It's like I have to release the specific job that I'm going in for or the specific thing that I'm like auditioning for, and I've done enough reps to be like, no, like I'm confident in my ability, I know what I bring to the room, but I'm not attached to the outcome. My goal is to go in there and have a good time and be myself.

[1:04:38] Charlie Murphy: I love that so much. And I think helpful to go through some of those. I love that you went through all the little aspects of an audition. We often talk about audition technique. Like, what are all the things that happen that are not your material just part of it? What are all those other things? And helpful to think about like we want authenticity in all of it, so we want authenticity in the work itself. You also should feel truthful in your songs and monologues, but but that there are two different kinds of things of like what is it I'm bringing intentionality to Charlie as I slate and not what Charlie is like. And if there's something different about my character, I'm hope I'll hopefully bring authenticity to that too, to the shifts that I'm making to myself and all the versatility of it, but that they're different kinds of things. It's not like that. And actually, I find it's actually easier to drop into my authentic version of that character when I'm coming from a place of truthfulness.

[1:05:23] Matt Rodin: You're not going that and now into Matt Neutral and now into what it's it's like saves you one of the levels of going in. Of course, like it's all pure. You know what I mean? It's it it it is my essence is there. That's the through line is that like I'm I'm in my essence the whole time.

[1:05:37] Charlie Murphy: How do you think about this question? In you know, we we just had uh we finished Unified's, you know, a couple weeks ago, so we've had a lot of people who went through a lot of auditions, which go through the ups and downs of everything. Of course, you're walking in with the idea of like, I'm trying to be my authentic self, but like how do you square that with like I'm having a really bad day? You know, when you're like, I'm really like I want you to see Charlie. I want you to see real Charlie, not fake Charlie, not shellac Charlie. I don't necessarily want to bring all of the baggage of what just happened in the fight with my mom or whatever. Yeah, like we do sometimes we'll tell students there's nothing wrong with walking in. It can be really nice as a kind of cheat to be like, I'm I'm actually feeling kind of nervous right now and like truthful of that, but I wouldn't be like, here's all my exactly, you know.

[1:06:19] Matt Rodin: Exactly. I mean, it's it's uh it's it's something that I'm navigating always. Like I I am trying to be, you know, honest about where I am. Um, and can I get myself to a place of like presence, right? Like that's my goal is like, can I be present with like what it is that I'm feeling in that moment? And if it is that I'm nervous or it is that I'm anxious, or I or I'm or if I'm excited to be in that room, yeah, in that moment, like even if the day has been whatever it's been, can I be present in that moment of being in that room? I I'll tell you a story that is uh maybe not uh it it was a lesson for me, but I had a callback for um Floyd Collins on Broadway. Oh yeah. Um and I was r obviously very excited, and I and I only say that because I want I want you to understand the stakes for me in that moment, right?

I'm going in for Tina Landau for Adam Gettle. Like this is something that I care very deeply about. Yeah. That morning, um, I rented a rehearsal studio to go warm up, and that was the morning that Gavin Creel passed away. So and I had known that Gavin was sick, but obviously when the news came out that he passed, it was really uh, you know, it was it was hard to process. And about an hour and a half later, two hours later, I go in this audition room, and they're like, they're like, Thanks for coming. I had flown back from tour. They're like, we really appreciate you being here. Like, how are you? And I was honest, and I said, I'm having a hard, I'm having a tough day. And they were like, What's what's what's going on? And I was like, Well, Gavin. And they were like, What? And I broke the news.

[1:07:57] Matt Rodin: Oh my god. To Tina Landau and Adam Gettle that Gavin Creel had passed away. And I had never seen the air sucked out of a room faster in my entire life. Now I don't mean to be laughing, but that's no, and it is. It's a it's a really good, funny story. And I and a couple things happened.

[1:08:17] Matt Rodin: Yeah. I walked out of the room, it the audition went the way you thought. Yeah. It it was, it was hard. It was a hard audition because everybody was in a certain headspace. And uh, and they probably weren't gonna be out of that head. I wasn't, there was no way to get people out of that headspace once I had broken that news. I walked out, I felt really guilty.

[1:08:36] Matt Rodin: That was the first thing that came up was I was like, I feel very guilty that I was the one that had to break the news to them about that. Then I was like, I just screwed myself. Like I had an opportunity and I just blew it because of a feeling that I was having. Right. And I, you know, and maybe you wanted a feeling to want to be authentic and want to tell the truth and be with the and that's and that's what I ended up coming away with because what I what I r what ended up resolving in myself was I was like we've been talking about, if we were walking to rehearsal that day, yeah, we would have talked about it. Yeah. And so for me, that was what was true for me in that moment. And do I think things could have gone differently?

It doesn't matter. Yeah. Like that is what happened, and it was it happened the way that it was supposed to, and it was an exercise for me in being like, no, that was like how I was authentically feeling. And unfortunately, that particular bit of news, it rattled the room in a way that like wasn't recoverable.

[1:09:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, but I did show up authentically, like I did that is what I would do in rehearsal. That's what we would do in a rehearsal setting. You were doing your job correctly. I mean, I love that that's such a great example. I mean, I was using version of like Carnegie Mellon just rejected me or whatever as maybe being upset, but like that's even you're talking about death. But it could be I mean, we had a couple students this year whose family members had died in this audition experience, right? Of going, is that something you want to choose to bring into the audition room? You certainly are welcome to, but also not required to. Like there's something about like in the pursuit, I think because we will talk about authenticity and some of these like truthful things as if they are binary. And I think you can walk in there and be authentically yourself and still choose to be in some ways a brighter version of yourself.

[1:10:30] Matt Rodin: I think the reason I'm trying to say that is that like I think people are like, well, the option would be like it's all I'm not wearing any makeup and it's all just on the table and it that's me, or I could be like my bright empty version of myself. And to invite that conversation of like, what is more what what is how are we seeking that truth and think seeking that authenticity? Even if you say, you know what, for my heart today, what I'm gonna walk in with is the Charlie that is that isn't really me, but is not gonna reveal my mom just passed. I'm not gonna reveal, like, if I don't, if that's not something I want to bring into every audition room, you still do have some level of choice without losing all authenticity just because you're not being like completely a hundred percent honest and revealing every single thing.

[1:11:13] Charlie Murphy: I think the more like yes, and the more materialist version of that is like what pants am I wearing? Like, like what shoes am I wearing? Because on one hand, like maybe there's something about being a little uncomfortable and showing up in something that isn't true for me or it feels like uncomfortable in my body and my feet are hurting, and there's something about that edge that maybe is helpful, but then there are days that like I want to wear pants that are really comfortable and shoes that I know that I feel grounded and comfortable in, right? Like, that's the other version of this, is that like it's about choosing the thing that day that I feel that I am capable of doing and what I need to show up in that room and be the like be the answer to their question, be again, like I want to go in the room and have fun. That's what I want to do.

[1:12:08] Matt Rodin: Like, I want it to be a joyful experience for everybody. Like this, the fact that we're getting they're getting paid to be there, yeah, and I'm doing this thing, that is a hard thing, but I'm getting the opportunity to go in and like work on material. Your dream, yeah. Live my little dream. Like, I want it to be fun for everybody, even if the material is heavy. Um, obviously, announcing someone's death isn't like the most fun version of that. But there would have been a version, I mean of course this is not not a like to make Matt regret the choices he made in an audition rooms, but there's a version of being like a dear friend past or whatever. And and this I'm feeling okay, I'm feeling like this is a nice celebration of his life or whatever. Listen, I could have said, I could have said, I'm really excited to be here.

[1:12:49] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, because you were too. That was also a truth of yours. That was also very true. You know, like options, which is not to make you regret it, but say that would have been inauthentic just because you're you're not saying all no, and again, like I that's why I'm like, I do I regret it? Who knows? I don't know. It it but but but it was what was true for me in that moment, and that's what I brought. And it was what it was, it the way it happened the way it's supposed to. And by the way, I wouldn't have been able to do all the worlds a stage or the two runs of bow if I had booked. You know what I mean? So it it the things always shake out the way that they're supposed to, but in that moment, of course, I was like devastated because I was like, oh my god, what did I just do? But again, I'm that and I tell the story just in the way of like I agree with you, it's not binary, it is a total spectrum, and we're navigating this constantly.

[1:13:36] Matt Rodin: Yeah, this is not something that you just like solve. Yes, and the other version of that of you being like, I'm amazing, like, would have also not been great. Too. I mean, we would have been like, Well, that's not that's true. This person you you talked about, I think in that that blog beautifully, like the little little bit of distance that's created when someone says it, even if you're a pretty good actor and you go, I'm amazing. That like that would have been something we go, huh? I don't really trust Matt. There's something about Matt at all trust. I don't know what it is, but he doesn't feel like he's aligned right now.

[1:14:00] Charlie Murphy: Because that's um, I love that. Okay, wait. Do you have time? I want to check in on your time. Are we can we play this ridiculous game?

[1:14:05] Matt Rodin: We must play this ridiculous game. Are you kidding me? It's this is just, I mean, and I have a million more questions, but we'll cut off, but we won't do won't do three hours of a podcast. Um our regular listeners have just I cannot describe the level that they have not been clamoring for the games to come back. We were doing games with every single artist's guest, and I enjoyed them, but boy, I spent way too much time creating them. And nobody's been missing them, nobody has cared that they're gone. I just want to be clear.

[1:14:28] Charlie Murphy: But then you saw the red carpet challenge, and you're like, I must play a game with him.

[1:14:32] Matt Rodin: Absolutely. I saw that honored Elizabeth Stanley, my soul by was sitting by me and I saw her. He goes, Mama, and it was like on the red carpet, and I was like, hell yeah. With me, right?

[1:14:40] Charlie Murphy: That's right. I had to do it. I had to do it after that. Um, okay, so I think this game is gonna be fun for somebody who likes games. Uh in honor of the red carpet challenge, as you've done it. This is the welcome Matt Challenge, because come on. Got to.

[1:14:53] Matt Rodin: Okay.

[1:14:54] Charlie Murphy: So you're gonna have 30 seconds to answer a series of questions, 30 seconds for each question, right? And I'm asking you basically five questions, right? The goal is uh these are gonna be little that have to do with some little parts of different parts of your career. So a lot, a little bit like red carpet where it's gonna be themed toward different, different whatever. They're all gonna be impossible trivia questions. Nobody does well at my game, so don't expect to do well.

[1:15:14] Matt Rodin: Um, but do you feel ready to play the welcome Matt Challenge?

[1:15:18] Matt Rodin: Yes, and may I say, I am of the belief, and I've always said to people on the red carpets, I was like, it's not about being right. Like, it is about playing the game.

[1:15:26] Charlie Murphy: So, like That's right. It's right, like it it's the same thing we're talking about. Like, we're not looking for we're not looking for a journey.

[1:15:32] Matt Rodin: Yeah, it's right. We're gonna be around. If it's an easy time. There's nothing to play, you know?

[1:15:35] Charlie Murphy: Correct. That's I'm gonna read.

[1:15:37] Matt Rodin: Correct.

[1:15:37] Charlie Murphy: It's about the game. Here we here we reach, here we improvise. Okay, so your blog is called The Fourth Wall, right?

[1:15:43] Matt Rodin: The fourth wall, of course, for those who don't listen, it refers to the invisible barrier between performers and the audience, and you call breaking the fourth wall if you were to move through it. You're trying to break the fourth wall, maybe in some ways with your blog, potentially.

[1:15:54] Charlie Murphy: Okay. This happens all the time in theater, but rarely in television and movies. Will you name for me with 30 seconds of the clock? Name three television shows that are known for breaking the fourth wall.

[1:16:06] Matt Rodin: Three TV shows that are known for breaking the fourth wall. 30 seconds on the clock begins now.

[1:16:12] Matt Rodin: Well, we must start with modern family.

[1:16:14] Matt Rodin: Modern family.

[1:16:17] Matt Rodin: Um I mean, any mockumentary, right? We could go with the office, we could go with Parks and Rec.

[1:16:22] Matt Rodin: Um all those mockumentary style shows that we we lock into the camera at some point. I feel like those all break the fourth wall.

[1:16:31] Matt Rodin: Um I know that people, I haven't seen Flea Bag, but I know she's a fourth wall breaker.

[1:16:35] Charlie Murphy: You're so good.

[1:16:36] Matt Rodin: You're so good.

[1:16:37] Charlie Murphy: Right?

[1:16:38] Matt Rodin: Yep, 100%.

[1:16:39] Charlie Murphy: I I'm trying to think of another show that breaks the fourth wall that like they know they're being filmed.

[1:16:44] Matt Rodin: Well, ABBA Elementary is a great one. That's again, mockumentary style.

[1:16:45] Charlie Murphy: All right, you've done it, you've way more than done it. Fantastic, you've crushed the fourth wall. That's question number one. You're not gonna do so well in the rest of this quiz.

[1:16:54] Matt Rodin: Okay, great. That was still hard, but it's only getting harder as we delivered uh 31 episodes up to this point.

[1:17:05] Charlie Murphy: 31 episodes of the come up, okay? The come up, it's a podcast. Of those episodes, I'm gonna give you plus or minus two. How many guests did we share in common with mapping the college edition?

[1:17:17] Matt Rodin: So plus or minus two within a range of two. How many guests did you come up share alongside mapping the college edition? Your timer starts now.

[1:17:26] Matt Rodin: You may not Google anything.

[1:17:28] Matt Rodin: Wow. Wow.

[1:17:29] Matt Rodin: Well, I know that Ali, there's at least one.

[1:17:32] Matt Rodin: There's one.

[1:17:33] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:17:34] Matt Rodin: And I'm trying to think like who else has been on the podcast, like who was on the come up in all those years. I don't know, but I feel I don't know why I am feeling the like I'm gonna aim low. I'm I'm really thinking it's in like the four or five range, but I like the ability that I'm gonna have plus-minus two. So part of me feels like four, four is a safe number because it can go down as low as two, but it can go as high as six. You understand the concept of plus minus.

[1:18:03] Charlie Murphy: Okay, four is your final answer.

[1:18:05] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[1:18:05] Charlie Murphy: Four is exactly the correct answer.

[1:18:08] Matt Rodin: Let's not, you nailed it.

[1:18:09] Charlie Murphy: You didn't even need the plus or minus two to jump and say and not give you, but four would be counting yourself. We had Chris Rodriguez, Alex Brightman, and then Ali Louis Gorski.

[1:18:16] Matt Rodin: Oh, perfect. My god, what a world.

[1:18:19] Charlie Murphy: Okay, you ready to get much harder?

[1:18:21] Matt Rodin: Yes.

[1:18:22] Charlie Murphy: All the world's a stage, and all the men and women, merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, and one man in his time plays many parts.

[1:18:31] Charlie Murphy: His axe being seven ages. The first stage is infant in 30 seconds. Name me at least three of the other six.

[1:18:50] Matt Rodin: I don't know what it is from. I have absolutely nothing. Here we are actively removing labels from me, and yet we are not removing the label of I will not do Shakespeare. No, I don't. I wish, and you know what's so funny? I've tried. Like, there was a period in high school where I was really like, tried to embody me like I'm gonna be Shakespeare obsessed and I read like four Shakespeare books from the library. I couldn't even get through one. Like, I've tried, and it's just like not in there. And I love, and I do love Shakespeare. Like, I enjoy watching Shakespeare. I find it very interesting, but it's just not something that I have spent time on.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: The answers for those who really care.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: I got not I got nothing.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: I got not a one.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: I got nothing for you.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: Not one.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: I got nothing.

[1:19:37] Matt Rodin: I have never read the speech.

[1:19:37] Charlie Murphy: I I think this would legitimately be a hard question for people, even who know and like Shakespeare to actually name six of these are not easy.

[1:19:47] Charlie Murphy: That's why I only said three of the six because some of those, if you don't know the text is pretty tough. The lean and slippered pantaloon, that is me to a T.

[1:19:54] Matt Rodin: Yeah, obviously, that's what Elizabeth calls me on a Saturday night.

[1:19:57] Charlie Murphy: The lean and slippered pantaloon, out of doubt.

[1:19:59] Matt Rodin: All right.

[1:20:00] Charlie Murphy: So you were two for three, and the one that was Shakespeare related, of course, was uh it's really it should get negative points for given uh um okay in the original musical company. This is the pre-gender swap company, Bobby mistakenly calls his flight attendant girlfriend April, most famously played, of course, in a Broadway debut by the stunning and luminescent Elizabeth Stanley.

[1:20:22] Charlie Murphy: Yes, what incorrect name? You have 30 seconds of the clock. What incorrect name is April called by Bobby?

[1:20:29] Matt Rodin: June.

[1:20:29] Charlie Murphy: Oh you dad that's so fast, and it like it was nothing.

[1:20:32] Matt Rodin: It was that's so.

[1:20:33] Charlie Murphy: I will tell you, I like I because I became obsessed with company.

[1:20:37] Matt Rodin: Like I have a very strange now, like deep knowledge of this show.

[1:20:42] Charlie Murphy: Probably not strange, but because I was on tour for a year and we watched the Elizabeth Stanley version many a time.

[1:20:49] Matt Rodin: I I've I figured you at least would have watched it many times, but not easy to do the show, because of course in your show it would not have been April and June.

[1:20:55] Charlie Murphy: No, he says he says, um uh I now know the answer because I looked it up, but yeah.

[1:21:01] Matt Rodin: She says, um, cause his name is his name is Andy Andy.

[1:21:05] Matt Rodin: And she calls him she calls him.

[1:21:08] Matt Rodin: What does she call him?

[1:21:09] Matt Rodin: At least in the script she calls him.

[1:21:12] Matt Rodin: Wait, wait.

[1:21:14] Matt Rodin: Oh my god, what does she call him?

[1:21:16] Matt Rodin: April.

[1:21:17] Charlie Murphy: She calls him April?

[1:21:18] Matt Rodin: That's what it says in the script.

[1:21:21] Charlie Murphy: Little homage to the original.

[1:21:23] Matt Rodin: No, no.

[1:21:24] Charlie Murphy: She doesn't call him April.

[1:21:25] Matt Rodin: What's but it's online.

[1:21:27] Charlie Murphy: I mean, I don't know.

[1:21:28] Matt Rodin: No, I don't think that's true.

[1:21:28] Charlie Murphy: I think she's a good one.

[1:21:30] Matt Rodin: But I I can't say I remember, but I did see the Janiswap version.

[1:21:32] Charlie Murphy: I can't say I remember that moment.

[1:21:33] Matt Rodin: Just that's online it says in an homage, they call it him April.

[1:21:37] Charlie Murphy: I don't think yeah, I don't think that's true.

[1:21:39] Matt Rodin: I forget what she calls him though.

[1:21:40] Matt Rodin: God was the most satisfying thing to me.

[1:21:42] Charlie Murphy: I don't mind being wrong, but I really hope you're wrong.

[1:21:44] Matt Rodin: Because it I love sitting in that no, no, no, it can't be that.

[1:21:47] Charlie Murphy: It's like it could be a good one.

[1:21:48] Matt Rodin: Yeah, because I like I feel like I would remember that.

[1:21:50] Matt Rodin: And I feel like we we talked about it.

[1:21:53] Matt Rodin: We talked about the reason I knew that June so fast is because we talked about it so specifically because April June is genius.

[1:22:00] Charlie Murphy: That is a genius brilliant piece of writing.

[1:22:03] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:22:03] Matt Rodin: And what they had done for Andy was not as like revelatory. It was like there was we were just like, Oh, that's not as good as like June April. But I don't remember what she calls him. Man, I I'm gonna text. I actually am gonna text some people because I'm like, what the what did she call him.

[1:22:19] Matt Rodin: Well, it's also potentially could be different production or by production.

[1:22:21] Charlie Murphy: I can't say even though for sure, but at least online it says April.

[1:22:24] Matt Rodin: Okay.

[1:22:25] Charlie Murphy: It says yeah.

[1:22:25] Matt Rodin: Oh wow.

[1:22:26] Charlie Murphy: Your last of this, so you you're doing great.

[1:22:28] Matt Rodin: Three for four, my gosh, and and hard questions. Like this is not an easy thing. Uh I'm gonna put 30 seconds on the clock. And with 30 seconds, you're gonna have to name me. TikTok is the sound that might be named made by a thick clock using only real words that would have some kind of plausible adjective noun agreement. Give me three other rhyming names with TikTok without giving the podcast an explicit tag.

[1:22:54] Charlie Murphy: So that's the rule. You can't say anything that it would not be okay for a 17-year-old to hear. But we need three things that rhyme with TikTok that are not thick clock. Three things that rhyme with TikTok that are not four clock. That's the only that's the only thing. And they have to be can't be nonsense syllables. They gotta be real. Real adjectives are real. Real things. Real things.

[1:23:11] Matt Rodin: Um object I could imagine that would exist, like a thick clock.

[1:23:16] Charlie Murphy: Tube sock.

[1:23:17] Matt Rodin: Well, but we need a double. We need a thick clock.

[1:23:20] Charlie Murphy: What but what does that mean?

[1:23:21] Matt Rodin: Well, they both have to rhyme.

[1:23:24] Charlie Murphy: Oh, they both have to rhyme. So it makes it a little more difficult. Come on.

[1:23:28] Matt Rodin: Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay.

[1:23:29] Charlie Murphy: Sick sock.

[1:23:31] Matt Rodin: A sick sock, for sure. Yeah, like a sick, like that sock is sick.

[1:23:34] Charlie Murphy: Thick sock, yeah.

[1:23:35] Matt Rodin: Um or ill, I guess. A uh a second.

[1:23:40] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, this is not gonna go well for me.

[1:23:42] Matt Rodin: Something Bach from Wicked. Um yeah, what is he?

[1:23:46] Charlie Murphy: I don't know.

[1:23:47] Matt Rodin: He's he's I was gonna say thick thick bock.

[1:23:52] Charlie Murphy: Why not?

[1:23:52] Matt Rodin: Yeah.

[1:23:53] Charlie Murphy: They'll give you a thick bock.

[1:23:54] Matt Rodin: All right. Thick block is pretty good. Um a Rick Rock.

[1:23:56] Charlie Murphy: Great.

[1:23:56] Matt Rodin: A Rick Rock.

[1:24:04] Charlie Murphy: A rock named Rick. I've I'm I'm into it. Matt, you did extremely well in the Welcome Matt Challenge.

[1:24:10] Matt Rodin: I think extremely is is generous. I feel like I did, I think I did, I passed.

[1:24:15] Charlie Murphy: You you were, and I'll say this, you were in the extremes. You lived in the extremes. You crushed it on. I cannot believe you got the come up exactly right. You nailed the immediate immediately.

[1:24:22] Matt Rodin: That's true. I did get that right.

[1:24:24] Charlie Murphy: Yeah, right. I mean, the television show was great. All that was great. You absolutely bombed all the world of stage without even to without even a guess on that. I mean, I couldn't. But I admitted that though. I knew that from the beginning. You know what I mean? If that helps, then great. You did that. But you were living in the extremes. I love it so much. Um, let's just start, let's move toward wrapping, but I want to do a little bit of like, you know, your online presence. We talked about a lot of like online stuff. You know, we've had JJ Neeman on the pod, some different people who sort of made their careers in the online spaces. How do you kind of see? I love the word alignment. I think something I think so many of us are seeking.

How do you sort of see your career aligning with producer, writer, like online content and how that fits into performer, actor. Obviously, they have inf influence each other, but how do you see in 2026 like your posting and your blogging as something that is furthering your career? Is it sideways to your career? How do you sort of think of content creation right now?

[1:25:15] Matt Rodin: Personally, for me.

[1:25:16] Charlie Murphy: For you, yeah.

[1:25:18] Matt Rodin: Um, you know, the thing I've been saying is I'm like, more TikTok followers isn't gonna hurt my career. Uh, which is sort of the most basic way of being like, I my career has continued to be surprising to me. And uh, you know, the most like a specific example of that, like I said, was like the people from Hedwig being like, we love your red carpet videos.

[1:25:44] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[1:25:44] Matt Rodin: So the thing that hasn't happened for me yet is that, well, actually, in some ways, it's what happened here, Charlie, which is that like you read a blog post.

[1:25:53] Charlie Murphy: A hundred percent.

[1:25:54] Matt Rodin: And you said, Hey, I want to come, I want you to come on and talk to me about this and other things too. And then somebody's gonna see this podcast and give you a job off it. That you never, you just don't know.

[1:26:02] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[1:26:03] Matt Rodin: And so I guess my sort of thinking is like as long as what I'm putting out is true to me and I stand behind what I say, um, and this is maybe a little bleak, but like if I were to be hit by a bus tomorrow, sadly, yeah, um, would I would I feel like what I've put out in the world and what I'm putting out is like a true representation of who I am, like who I am at my essence? That's like that's what I'm thinking about is like, can I keep putting it things out in the world that represent and are um an expression of the way that I think and the way that I feel? And, you know, it's it's interesting because I think in our business, we're used to being praised and recognized for our talent. It's really a nice that's a that's a nice thing that we we strive for. But what the what the fourth wall, and what TikTok also has been doing for me, because I haven't been posting like singing videos, I've been posting talking videos, is I feel often in a hat.

[1:27:00] Charlie Murphy: Often in a hat, yes, often in a hat. But not today, I thought I'll do my hair for you. Um it's like being recognized or or feeling connected to people through uh intellect or the way that you or your perspective, you know.

[1:27:28] Charlie Murphy: Do you feel like you are doing it more personally from for a personal legacy or for a personal feeling of connectedness? Like, is it more creatively fulfilling for you? Or are you thinking of it like that entrepreneurship? Like, hey, like the way that you're like for 54 below, I gotta like, I want to meet people, I want to whatever. Like, is it more I mean it can doesn't have to be one or the other, but does it feel like it's more one or the other?

[1:27:46] Matt Rodin: I I do I actually do think it's both. I think, right? It’s it is shots on goal for me. Yeah, like it is about like putting in the reps and the process of writing and uh and putting things out in the world. Like I I do think that those are like just healthy in terms of me getting to know myself more, and I am certain that it will lead to professional opportunities that I can't predict. Yeah, and I am excited to see what those are, but I know that it will lead to stuff. So yeah, it is very much both. I do feel like really, really attached and or not attached, but I do feel connected to both of those things, like in the day-to-day pursuit of like making stuff right now.

[1:28:26] Charlie Murphy: I love that you reference that. I also read that shots on goal blog. I thought it was great in terms of the sort of similar in the the way you're talking about reps and finding release and in the the reps can find release and getting these reps. So lots of uh of cool stuff there, and yeah, I I love it. Um let's wrap. We always wrap up the last question, is just uh advice. You know, if we can think about advice for young humans who maybe they would like to uh have a career that's like a Matt Rodin. They're sort of hoping to follow somewhat in the footsteps. Any sort of advice for people out there in terms of how they can find their own version of authenticity, etc.

[1:29:00] Matt Rodin: Make stuff. Just make stuff.

[1:29:02] Charlie Murphy: Yeah.

[1:29:02] Matt Rodin: Um, whether that's for your friends, whether that's for the world, whether that's for you. I think the process of making things like we were just talking about will not only help you get to know yourself better, but it will also lead to opportunities that you can't possibly foresee. And if you want to be someone that waits around for opportunities, more power to you. I just can't, I'm not that person. And so I think if you have an idea or you're given inkling or just like a little tickle of something that you're like, ooh, I I wanna design a poster, or I really want to do this play, or I have this idea for a video, or I have this idea for a a script. Just do it. Just make it. Um and because the only person that's really getting in in your way is yourself. And again, you just don't know what things will lead to what. And if nothing else, if nothing else, you'll get to know yourself a little bit better. And to me, I'm like, that's the ultimate goal.

[1:29:59] Charlie Murphy: I absolutely love it. We know we can check out the fourth wall blog. We know we can find out at who is Matt Rodin on Instagram, which is certainly what we're looking for. Is that also true on TikTok, the same tag?

[1:30:09] Matt Rodin: Yes, sir.

[1:30:10] Charlie Murphy: All right, great. So we'll all discover who is Matt Rodin as we try to discover ourselves. Matt, thanks for the uh time today. I really appreciate that.

[1:30:16] Matt Rodin: Thank you so so much.

[1:30:19] Charlie Murphy: Big fan. Did I book? Wait, did I book my uh job interview? Like how did I stay tuned. Come back and find out if this turns out to be future MTCA coach Matt Rodin, we'll find out.

[1:30:35] Matt Rodin: Yes, yes, yes.

[1:30:37] Charlie Murphy: So nice to get to chat with Matt. You know, what an embodiment of that authenticity that we're talking about.

[1:30:42] Matt Rodin: He really is.

[1:30:43] Charlie Murphy: It's always nice when the thing that we're talking about is actually embodied in the interviewee. So it's not just that we're talking about it, but we actually get to see it and feel it and hear it. And I hope you all felt that as you were listening. Um I did basically all of my noted takeaways that I'm gonna do again in the interview itself. So I'm just gonna kind of like wax philosophical on some of these things without probably saying too much that's really new, but maybe I'll say it slightly differently. Um, I do think we hit it pretty clearly, uh, without of course like solving it all, because we're never gonna do that in these uh interviews, but just that idea of like different levels of authenticity in the audition room, you know what it is to be able to do that work of bringing in your best self and not just your truest or rawest self while still being really authentic and trying to basically find that balance is what really we're talking about, right?

And then also the idea of like being on the journey to a high level of authenticity, but that doesn't always mean the fullest, rawest, nakedest, most vulnerable version of yourself either, right? I love Matt's example of sharing a death in an audition room. I mean, not that we should never talk about sad things. We absolutely can talk about sad things or even sad personal things in an audition room if you want to, but that like that particular revelation of news that was gonna be personally affecting to the auditor, being a pretty tough one to recover from, and I guess obviously so, right? And even I think it's worth examining what the goal of authenticity in the audition room is, which I think is less about achieving a kind of like maximal level of authenticity.

It's not about like drilling down into your core until you've like fully flipped yourself inside out and uncovered all your secrets, but it's really more about a lack of artifice, a lack of masking or covering up or hiding yourself. But none of that needs to prohibit you from having a choice about what you choose to actively share in that room. In other words, a lack of artifice doesn't have to mean a lack of boundaries or a lack of selection in where you choose to focus, right? There can be many true things at the same time that you could say in any moment, and it's never really possible to share every true thing about you in every moment simultaneously. You're gonna have to make choices, right?

Like on this podcast, I share a lot of raw things, a lot of I think authentic things with all of you, our dear and loyal listeners who I love. So I want to share with you, right? I'm happy to talk about being in personal therapy. I talk about being in family therapy, I talk about struggles with different groups of people. But if I shared every detail of like a specific fight Elizabeth and I had, that might go beyond being just like raw and authentic to actually now being inappropriate and uncomfortable, right? This, of course, is a hypothetical fight. I'm not talking about an actual fight, right? But that doesn't mean I am being inauthentic in choosing to have a boundary to what I share and don't share.

And maybe that idea is so obvious that it doesn't even need to be said for all of you. But I do think for some of our students, especially, it's the fear of this kind of raw oversharing that sometimes makes students afraid to share authenticity at all, right? If they think it's a choice between sharing everything that's going on in my crazy life with school and friends and romantic partners and family and all of those things, right? And how stressful that anxiety and zeusing that could be, versus choosing to be my shiny, shellacked peppy and positive self, students are gonna opt for that ladder, and I think understandably so, if they think those are the choices that you're making between that like oversharing possibility and then like the sharing the positive peppy version of yourself, right?

But I think as a listener to this pod, you will be not surprised to hear that it is not a choice between those two things, right? I think the work you can do to bring a happy, healthy person to the room is super important. And I think bringing positivity and kindness into the room is great, right? Often that is started by some of the ways in which you prepare yourself before you enter the building, as we've talked about a lot in recent takeaways. But I think it's also about finding the version of yourself, that version, that positive version of yourself, as genuinely as you humanly can. So in the finding process, you want to be tapping into a well that comes from your actual self, comes from your actual soul, right?

Not a well of artifice or mask or trying to reach for that positivity in the ether, right? And I think it's especially telling these moments of positivity or authentic positivity. It's especially telling for those moments where we see you as you, right? Those moments in the audition when you're slating, when you're being interviewed, taking adjustments, moments that happen behind the table with the auditors in any way, right? We really love to see your genuine personality in those moments. But even beyond just getting the advantage of getting to see that genuine personality, which is so important, Matt brought up this point of like it's also easier then to slide into your pieces if you're starting from a truthful place.

It makes it so much easier to transform into your songs, into your monologues in a genuine, authentic way, and the work will feel more authentic if you yourself are bringing that authenticity and tapping into that well, really from you. And I do think it's worth noting, maybe this doesn't need to be said, but just in case you're confused, there's absolutely nothing wrong with an element of character to the work itself that you're doing. So when we say bring yourself into the room, bring your authentic self into the room, that doesn't mean that you can't have an element of character and that your pieces themselves won't be different from you.

[1:36:08] Charlie Murphy: You are showing four very different sides of yourself over the course of two songs and two monologues, or whatever the material requirements might be for that audition, right? And you want to show as much range and versatility as you possibly can. That is a goal, right? All of these pieces should feel like they have an essence of you, an element that really feels like it is you, but there's nothing wrong at all if we see something that goes beyond just authentic you on an everyday Tuesday, right? In fact, we want to see that in some of your pieces. We want to see some stakes in those imaginary situations. That doesn't mean always the ultimate stakes, not always the climax of the play, that kind of stakes, but we want to see stakes that go beyond the quotidian or the everyday, at least in some of your pieces, right?

But even as it grows farther from yourself, if we were to distill down that work, there should still feel like there is some you. I can see how it hooks into you in some way, right? And here's where I will just say, as with all advice, take it with a grain of salt. If you have one wacky and wild piece that absolutely feels kind of the opposite of you, but you absolutely love it, that's not necessarily a bad thing to have in your book either, right? If you feel like, well, this isn't me at all, which is actually why I love it, and I really understand what it is to play this thing, even though this thing is really not me in real life. If you can do it truthfully and well, that's great, right? Now, if I was gonna get really deep in our, I would argue kind of in the metagame of revealing yourself, that in some ways you're still participating in that act of telling me about yourself with telling me that choice of what is opposite or the thing that you're afraid of, right?

Certainly you can broaden that definition of you, quote unquote you, into whatever that means to you. In the complicated question of material selection, interpret it however it will best suit you. You are the storyteller. So when I say it should have you, that doesn't mean, oh my gosh, this piece is wrong for me because I'm not like this person in actual life. Again, interpret it how you will. Okay, let's hit another topic.

[1:38:05] Charlie Murphy: And probably the one I didn't go as deep in on in the episode, which is just that question in a large cohort where Matt wasn't necessarily getting starring performance opportunities at BOCO, and how he thought about that at the college level. You know, it's really interesting to me because I think one of the big questions a lot of families look for, students especially, is what performance opportunities will be guaranteed, and maybe especially what performance opportunities will be guaranteed when, right? They look at this both from the perspective of, will I be guaranteed to perform freshman year, or will I even get to perform freshman year? Which I think I've said this separately. I think that question tends to be a bit overemphasized from the student perspective.

I understand why they want to perform immediately, but I don't always think that's the most important thing that you should be looking for. But they're also often interested in just like looking at the ratio of shows to students and trying to figure out what that will mean for them in terms of the realm of guaranteed opportunities throughout their four years. You know, we've heard schools talk about all the different ways they do casting, whether they do that prescriptive casting for those smaller cohorts, prescriptive casting, meaning you can give students parts that they think will be good for them that the professors think will be good for them based on what they think they actually need, and also strive for a real equality of opportunity within casting.

So this person's already had a lead, so they shouldn't get another lead in their four years, that kind of thing, right? In general, I think all of that sounds really nice. I think it's a beautiful thing when schools do that. I'm always like, man, that sounds so nice, right? I do think there's something nice about being guaranteed a certain amount of parts or certain amount of leads, especially you're paying all this money, you want to get a chance to get up on stage and perform, right? But also, it is definitely unrealistic to the world that they're about to graduate into. Now, is it a bad thing to be unrealistic? Maybe not, right? We do talk about in other areas the value of that safe bubble of college for learning and how that can be different than what it is in the broader world and what the positives of that are.

I believe in that for many students. But there's also something about a college casting pool mirroring some of the elements of the real world, even if it's gonna mirror it in not quite as harsh a way, right? There's not gonna be any schools that are gonna say, hey, if you're not up to snuff, you'll never get cast, right? In the way that the world might say, if you don't book the job, you might not work for four straight years, right? But there's something about that philosophy of a bit of competition, a bit of what the real world could offer you that might actually help young actors for the world itself, right? Again, here's where in the episode I drew what I think is probably a pretty obvious connection to many of you, which is that in Matt not feeling like he was getting the positive reinforcement of, hey, here's your easy way into this industry, him not knowing exactly where he belonged.

At least as we tell that narrative backward, that might have helped him cultivate the industriousness and the entrepreneurship that have become a hallmark of his early career. Now, can we say definitely that's a causal relationship? Of course not, but I will say I definitely have seen some of this in the reverse, where students who were well pampered in great college experiences of casting and being the star again and again can have that rude awakening in the industry when they see what auditions can really be like in the outside world, right? There's that feeling of like, wait a second, I'm going to the EPA and the director's not even in the room. I'm auditioning for an intern, or even just like the seeming unfairness of casting for all the reasons that someone might book a part who might not be objectively more talented than you.

You know, whether we're talking about nepotism or a celebrity or looks or Instagram followers or whatever the reasons that we're gonna go, I can't believe that person got that part. All of that can really eat a young actor up as they navigate the rejection of this business, right? And that's not to say, again, on the flip side, that a big competitive casting field in college is better, but just to point out it's not necessarily all bad, and that the luxury of guaranteed equal casting can potentially have its downsides as well.

[1:41:56] Charlie Murphy: Okay, let's wrap with what we started to do in thanking and congratulating the rodents out there, shall we? And I'm sure I do mean specifically the rodents did a great job. They certainly raised a wonderful young person. But I also just want to slow down and emphasize what I said to all of our parents out there who may be listening, especially those senior parents who just completed the process this year or last year, and they're still loyal listeners. Thank you for downloading the episodes and listening to the artist. We appreciate it. Which is that you deserve a huge pat on the back. You really do. And if you're a student listener and you have the ability and the bandwidth to do this for your parents, go give them a hug and a thank you and a congrats if you can for all they did for you.

I'm talking about for the past 18 years, of course, but even more so for the past 18 months or however long you've been on this college journey. Now, I said some of this in the episode. I'm gonna try to say it a bit more clearly here, which is this very odd and specific thing that it took me over a decade of doing this process to recognize, and I only really understood after becoming a parent. And that is, I will sometimes see this particular look in a parent's eyes right around Unified's time, where they're like, I just can't believe what I've just accomplished. And of course, it's ultimately not about you, it's about your kid. We all know that, right? And of course, we all, and I watched parents always do this, they want to put the focus back on the kid, right?

They go, well, don't worry about me, it's about my child. But just for this moment, let's keep the spotlight on you, the parent, if you're listening to this, because very likely, if we're talking like generationally, you just took your child through a process with integrity and thoroughness and attention and grit in a way that your parents never would have been capable of. I mean, I know I've told the story of my mom who just like couldn't believe some of her law school friends had children who were going through MTCA. Like she was a loving and supportive mother, but she never would have put that much time or attention into this process for me. That was just not something she was capable of with her life at the time, right?

And she approaches that truth, she approaches that idea from this place of guilt where she sees other parents who didn't do all this, right? You know, Matt called them the toddlers and Tiara's parents, right? But like while we can sometimes focus on that from a place of lack or a place of guilt of what am I not doing that other parents are doing? Look how much they're all doing, right? You might also simultaneously feel a bit of pride and awe of just like, I just did so much. We've just applied to 25 schools or more in some cases. God forbid if you heard those green room takeaways and some of the numbers of schools that people did at those in those green room interviews. You know, you might feel like I scheduled all these coachings, I paid for all these coachings, I made all these spreadsheets, I did so I wrote all these damn emails and all this correspondence, and so much, so many insane aspects of what makes this process as insane as it is in 2026.

And you might also feel like I don't even know like where to put all of this amazing knowledge and accomplishment of what I have done. I do think it's why sometimes our alumni parents, sometimes they'll come back and work for us, which is amazing when they do, or they'll become ambassadors for MTCA and helping future generations, continuing to post in our Facebook groups long after their children have graduated college. Now, some of that is a genuine kindness and wanting to help. I believe that is true. But I also suspect for some, it's this thing of like, I have become an expert in this niche thing that I can't exactly apply to anything else in my life. And again, the reason I'm saying all this is not necessarily because I think this information is gonna be revelatory to all of you, because I think many of you will have realized a version of this, but you also may have realized like who is there that's gonna be able to see me and congratulate what I've done.

If you're lucky enough to go through this equally with your partner, and you can often do that for each other, right? You can give a big high five and a well done as a family, and an at a boy to you and an at a girl to you, and we all feel good. Good job, partners, right? Or maybe if you bore more of the load, but your partner was at least able to witness it, they can at least recognize, hey, thank you for taking the load of this process while I was working or whatever it is. Maybe they can give you this love and this recognition and this acknowledgement that you truly deserve. But for some of you, if you're a single parent navigating this process or a divorce parent, or your partner just didn't happen to be able to see all of this reality of what you've done for your kid in so many hidden ways.

I'm just gonna invite you out there to give yourself a big pat on the back, maybe with a bit of emphasis from my voice as you're listening to this, right? Just imagine me giving you a sage wink and a good shoulder squeeze as I say these words, which is I know you did an amazing job, and you are deserving of praise and recognition. I know it, you know it, and I promise you someday your kid will recognize it too.

[1:46:54] Charlie Murphy: And to get even like a bit deeper for a second, if we're gonna really go down deep down this well. I'll bet for some of you, it's hard if your parents aren't around to be able to see and acknowledge that or aren't capable of knowing the different kind of parenting that you're choosing to do and what they did for you and how those two things are different. Even if you might have a wonderful relationship with your parents, right? I think there really is an isolating and lonely feeling to that. Whether that's because your parents are no longer with us or just because they aren't capable of going to that place for you. So I will just say, for me, you get a gold star and a big old attaboy. And I hope you don't just shrug that off.

Because some of you go, oh, whatever, I don't need that, right? But I hope you can actively take it in and feel good about it and not just say it's all about my child, even though of course it is all about your child, because I hope that maybe just that little bit of recognition and understanding of that feeling and where it's coming from, which again, that feeling is very normal, and I've seen it so many times over the past decade, the ability to process some of that feeling, maybe that will actually allow you to more joyfully focus on your amazing child and help them reach the end of their journey, right? And I now say that directly to parents when I catch them at Unifieds. Anytime I get a chance, I won't necessarily say that a whole monologue, but I'll try to give a little bit of like, you did a great job to these parents when I'm able to recognize it, when I can encounter them in person, but I only encounter so many, and I only have that intimate, vulnerable moment with a couple of you each year.

So hopefully this audio will catch a few more of you who are listeners. And maybe if you know a parent who might need this, you know, play this for them. Spread that audio into the world so that everybody can just feel a bit more seen.

[1:48:33] Charlie Murphy: And with that, let's wrap another episode of Mapping The College Audition, produced by Kelly Prendergast with social media work by Jordan Rice. You know you can follow us at Mapping The College Audition on Instagram, as well as subscribe to our blog on Substack because Matt told you to. You can subscribe to his as well, called The Fourth Wall. And if you feel like doing a bit of writing yourself, you know you can write us a rating and review on your podcast platform of choice, like our wonderful ginger. As well, if you really fancy yourself a writer, feel free to reach out about possible guest blog submissions. If you have an idea for an MTCA blog and you want to be on the blog yourself, we are looking to open up our blog a bit more in 2026 to different contribution sources.

So if you're someone who thinks to yourself, I actually think I have a great blog and parents should hear this, feel free to send it my way and we will look at potentially putting it on the MTCA blog. Drop us a line. And as always, check us out at MTCA.com for help with your individual college process. If you want to be a bit less clueless than Matt's parents. To my young artists out there mapping their journeys, please trust that you're enough for the right program, exactly as you are right now. Now keep striving. We'll catch you next week.