This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Brian Sedita: Hey everyone, welcome to Page to Stage.

[0:03] Mary Dina: A conversation with theater makers.

[0:04] Brian Sedita: We're your hosts.

[0:05] Mary Dina: That's Brian.

[0:06] Brian Sedita: And that's Mary.

[0:07] Mary Dina: This episode is part of our series on SIX the Musical.

[0:10] Brian Sedita: In this series, we uncover the process behind the musical through our central questions.

[0:15] Mary Dina: What role does history play in the storytelling of SIX, a show that uses the history mix as a device?

[0:21] Brian Sedita: We hope you enjoyed this episode.

[0:26] Lucy Moss: Hi, my name's Lucy Moss. Um, and I am a theater writer and director, and I am one of the writers and one of the directors on SIX the Musical.

[0:36] Toby Marlow: Hi, I'm Toby Marlow. I am a writer and a performer in the industry, and I'm one of the writers of SIX the Musical, along with Lucy Moss.

[0:47] Mary Dina: Amazing, welcome. It's such a pleasure to have you guys here. Thank you for, I know the time, the time difference is a little wonky, but thank you for hopping on with us today. You're actually our second two-person episode, if you will. So we've had usually we record with one person, but um you're our second, but our first writing duo. So I know we're very excited to chat all about your process. We love writing duos.

[1:12] Brian Sedita: We know that you both wrote SIX while at university. Um I was curious as to if the piece was commissioned for the Edinburgh Festival, or was it an assignment with school? I know it was connected to a sit like a musical theater society, I believe.

[1:25] Toby Marlow: Yeah at the festival. It was it was the Cambridge University Musical Theatre Society, also known as CUMTS with an M in the middle there. Um but yeah, yeah, so so they wanted to take an original musical to the Edinburgh Fringe because in previous years they'd taken like pre-existing ones and like you know, rights was expensive, and you know, there was a lot of like keen beings in our in our time at uni who like did lots of writing, and so they were like, it'd be a good idea to um take an original musical to the fringe. And so they kind of opened up the actions of like any idea. You just had to like apply as a as a writer to to write it with an idea. Um and that's that's that's what I did, yeah.

[2:07] Mary Dina: Oh wow. So you didn't even have to have like a like a rough draft or a finished draft. You could just pitch your your thought. That's awesome.

[2:13] Toby Marlow: Yeah, I I didn't even pitch with the idea of SIX. I pitched with kind of like like four-prong like criteria for the kind of show that I wanted to do, which was basically um one that um had a like a famous subject matter because it was like, you know, the fringe, lots and lots of shows. You wanna have something that's gonna stand out. Something that played around with the form a bit, something that um used pop music because, you know, that was like the music we love to listen to and I liked writing, and then something that had um a majority of the or all female and non-binary cast because for you know, several reasons, because um we, you know, had low-throughs of friends at uni who were like unbelievably like talented women and non-binary performers who in all the musicals got really like shit parts because um it was like, you know, either like it was a female love interest that was like, Oh, I love this man, or like, oh, this man doesn't love me or kind of thing.

And and so we were like, oh, it wouldn't be funny to like write something for them that was really like funny and like showcased all their talents and showcase their humor and charisma, but also came from conversations that I've been having with my friends, Lucy had been having since she was at drama school about how like you know, female parts in musical theatre are like not as interesting or funny or charismatic or as good across the board as as um the the male parts to be to be super binary about the whole thing. But yeah, that was that was kind of like you know, the impetus of where of where that came from. And so though that was the criteria I applied with, and you know, other songs I'd written and other ideas and things, and from that uh they gave me the gig.

[3:50] Mary Dina: What were the conversations like to actually solidify your topic and picking that point of history and those those gals to uh center a story around, especially because I mean uh uh we've touched upon this in two of the previous episodes we've done on the SIX series, is like we're we're coming at this from an American perspective, and we'd love to hear what that's like from your perspective in the UK.

[4:14] Toby Marlow: It's funny because like the choice to do it about the six wives of Henry the Eighth, it didn't come from like a love of the Tudors, or because we were like obsessed with like that period of history or those particular women, um, and like even like you know, Lucy like studied history at uni, but like you know, neither of us were like huge like Tudor buffs, and and like and were obsessed with that with that group. It was literally because it was you know those criteria that I said, I was like, okay, so it's gonna be a famous subject matter and like a group of women. What's like a famous group of women, either from like literature or from history? So I was thinking like the like the witches from Macbeth, like the like the other female characters from Shakespeare, like you know, the six wives of Henry the Eighth, and then the the musical theatre society, which I won't say out loud again, um, were they like Toby, like we need to like solidify what it's gonna be about because we need to start applying to venues, and I was like, okay, okay, let's just go with like six wives, but like how, like, how to do that in an hour at the fringe with pop music, like, like, and that was kind of like swirling around, and then one day in like a poetry class, I was like, oh gosh, what if it's a pop concert?

Because then they can all be pop stars, they can all like sing a pop song about their experiences, and that will like fit in an hour, and then it'll be like a fun form where like no one's like randomly breaking into song because they're there to sing because they're pop stars, and that could be like that could be like the gimmick, and that could be like you know, the fun form and the excuse of pop music and like all these, and it all kind of like came together in that way, and then it kind of became the process of like, okay, I've boldly decided that the six wives of Henry the Eighth would be a good topic for a musical, like better, like you know, and I I I like rang Lucy and I was like, What do you what do you think of this idea?

[6:04] Mary Dina: Um Lucy, what did you originally think of the idea?

[6:07] Lucy Moss: I thought that it had the potential to be really, really bad, like really lame, and just like be a total disaster. But I also you know love the pop music thing, and as Toby said, like it was sort of the I I guess I guess to sort of answer a question before from before about like the the difference with the American perspective, like in the UK, like the six wives of Henry the Eighth are like the most famous group of women in history, really. Like they're the most famous out of copyright group that there are, like, and it's you something everybody learns for multiple years at school. Um, when you're growing up, so like it I was sort of like, okay, like makes it makes sense as like them being these like pop star figures, like the most famous ladies of their day. But yeah, I was literally like this could be a total disaster if we don't make it funny, basically.

[6:57] Lucy Moss: And it's not even like, oh, like this one queen from history that you know the famous one, but what about this one you don't know much about who didn't get their turn of the limelight? It's like the six wives of Henry the Eighth, and like when we did our like GCSEs, which I feel is like the SATs, like when we were like everyone studied them, and and everyone knows Divorce Behead had died, divorced beheaded survived. To sort of also speak to something from earlier, as well as us being like, Oh, we want to like write parts for women in musical theater. This was like a time when it was 2017, it was like six months before the Me Too movement like broke. It was a time when we were really talking about I was I was studying history, and basically every week I was writing like a feminist version of like revisionist history of like questioning what the like prevailing narratives are.

And Toby, I know you were doing that in your English literature degree as well. Like it was that was such a like hot topic for us, like in general, and so that was sort of part of the emphasis coming into it, but also with the six wives, it's like you learn it at quite a young age, you don't really learn it in depth, you learn essentially the most patriarchal version of this history, and like it's so so so to us, like the the show is kind of written as if there's a narrative that the audience already knows, and then it's written to sort of challenge that, even though technically everyone's forgotten most of what they learn at school about it.

[8:12] Lucy Moss: So there's sort of a thing where like in the show we do this bit that leads up to Anne Boleyn's song, which is all like, oh, the one you've been waiting for, the mystery, the one who changed history, the temptress, and sort of like repeating back to the audience what they supposedly quote unquote know already. And similarly with like Catherine Howard, like she's known as the sort of like sexy one, the one who slept around. And in order to like question that, we sort of have to frame it as like this is what you already know about them. So it was it's it was very much about playing with what the kind of prevailing narrative was, whilst also trying to write it in a way that meant that the audience didn't actually have to know anything. It's sort of more like there'll be a bit where it's like tried to elope and the popes and open, and they'll be like, Oh yeah, that was what happened was Anne Boleyn was famous for, or whatever.

[8:52] Brian Sedita: Like, so, from a writing standpoint, so was this the first time the two of you had collaborated on a like a musical theater piece?

[8:59] Toby Marlow: It was the first time that we'd written together because we were we kind of became friends at uni through doing theatre stuff together. We actually became friends because I went up to Lucy after I'd watched a play that she directed in our like first couple of weeks of uni, and I went up to like afterwards. I was like, you don't know who I am, but I just watched that play, and I thought was the best thing I've ever seen in my whole entire life. You're an amazing director. And then soon after that, of course of my networking, um, Lucy directed me as an actor in a play, and then the main thing we kind of did together after that was in our second year, which was like the panto, like the pantomime, um, which I wrote original songs for, and Lucy assistant directed and choreographed dances to those numbers.

I think that's where like mutual talent crush kind of was solidified because like the work that Lucy did on those songs, it was like I was like, I couldn't believe it was like a student production. I was like, this is the most like unbelievable choreography, it's so like smart and funny, and it's making the song sound better, and oh my god, like how was this person like my age, what a year older than me? Like, what a what a difference a year makes, guys, honestly. But I was like, wow, that's like so so cool.

[10:03] Lucy Moss: Yeah, which is why when it came to like choosing a collaborator for this, I was like, I know you haven't written before, but I feel like the way that you choreograph and the way that you and Lucy had like directed so much like new writing as well, and just like has like I could just I I just felt like should be really a great person to write with.

[10:20] Brian Sedita: We've seen that you guys have said in in uh past interviews that uh there are certain pop artists that you would associate the queens with. Um, now were those pe so, for example, we wrote a couple of them down. Um, so for Aragon, Beyoncé, J-Lo, Shakira, right? Are those uh pop artists, were those solidified as ideas for each of the queens originally in kind of like a storyboarding way in your process, or did that come after you've written the songs and then said, you know what? This sounds like this, we're gonna lean into that.

[10:50] Toby Marlow: Um, I think it was it was a tool that we used to decide like what kind of song we wanted to write for each queen, and it was like it was more sort of dramaturgical, I suppose. So, for example, with Catherine of Aragon, because she's got this really long sad story. There was a world in which, like, as a as a character, she could have been a sort of like power ballad, like Adele kind of moment, could have been the Jane Seymour person. But we were really like, okay, you know, Catherine of Aragon is the first queen. We're gonna basically do this sort of revisionist history version of like a feminist history story. The first thing that everyone's kind of expecting on the that sets the bar is a sort of like, you know, sit down, shut up, Henry.

I'm gonna tell you what to do. Great. So we'll use that bit of her story, and then the song should be, you know, the classic girl power, run the world, Beyoncé Shakira, J-Lo song to set the tone in that way. Great, cool. And then it was like with Anne Boleyn, we were like, oh, everybody knows her as this thing. Wouldn't it be fun to like approach the history as like revising it and making it like she wasn't calculating and manipulative, she was actually just like having a bit of a joke. Okay, so what's the kind of more what what kind of character would that be?

[11:56] Toby Marlow: Oh, a bit like Lily Allen, a bit like Miley Cyrus, kind of okay, great. So that's the kind of song that that would be. So it kind of came about based on what bit of the history we wanted to sort of attack, or based on what we thought like dramaturgically would fit, E.G. the third one, we were like, great, that's where the ballad comes, so then we'll do the sad one, and that's why she'll be like Adele or whatever, or like Emily Sande or whoever it is. Does that mean that make sense? It's so interesting?

[12:17] Lucy Moss: Yeah, because it's like you're almost playing with the structure of what story you wanted to tell in terms of like, you know, the arcs of actual like the story, and then used the artists that we know to kind of make those points land along the plot.

[12:33] Toby Marlow: Totally. And I think also we just knew that we wanted it to be like, you know, these six amazing, like pop star women. So we wanted them to be like a cross-section of like what you understand as sort of like the best divas of pop kind of thing. I think it's like we knew that we wanted variety in that and musically we wanted like the songs to all stand alone and be different, you know, as if they could be pop songs in their own right. So it'd be a bit weird if they all did a Beyonce song, you know, that create or they all did crazy and laugh. But what's kind of cool is that like because a lot of like the genres of the songs were dictated by like the personalities of the real life pop stars that were like huge at the time of writing, and even like since then, like if we were to write six now, maybe like the pop star references for like the different personalities would be like would be different because of like you know who's in the top 40 compared to four years ago, four or five years ago.

[13:22] Toby Marlow: But what was really cool is that every time there's like a new production of six now in the directing process, the cast are really like encouraged to like draw upon like what pop stars they think would be like a really good influence for like the character approach that they want to do. And so what's cool is that we have people now who are like doing like a Billy Eilishy kind of the line or like a Lizzo-y kind of cleaves when like these are two women that like I hadn't heard of when we were like writing the show, and so it's like cool that it kind of like hits like refresh every time there's a new production now.

[13:51] Toby Marlow: So when Brian and I first saw the production on Broadway, we saw it a few days before March 12th. Um, and I didn't know anything about the show. I hadn't listened to the music beforehand, which sometimes I really prefer, because then you just go in totally open-minded, and immediately I was like identifying these women who I had not really known well or at all in some cases, and I was like, Yes, I can see who she is, I can see like her character fully developed with but you know by the end of the first number for sure, based on kind of the pop star essence that they were kind of they that they were delivering on stage, and it made it very relatable to me.

[14:28] Toby Marlow: And that's one of the things that we talked with Brittany Mack last week about or last episode about was that she was able to, even though it originated across the pond, and that obviously now this is in the States that she was able to really dive into Cleves and really make it her own, even though obviously Cleves was a real person and was portrayed on stage by another actor and several actors before her, but she said she loved that process of like the rehearsal and like diving into the character and like really nitpicking certain things.

[14:58] Lucy Moss: So it's cool that you're saying that like Lizzo and other TikTok people were involved.

[15:03] Toby Marlow: Yeah, oh, and she's so good, she's amazing.

[15:06] Lucy Moss: Yeah, she's amazing.

[15:12] Toby Marlow: So, question while we're talking about Brittany for a second. So she mentioned that how um House of Holbein, that song appears randomly, you know, it can appear randomly in the cast album when you're not familiar with the flow of the show. Um, but then once you see it on stage, it completely ties everything together.

[15:31] Toby Marlow: And as soon as she said that, I was like, all the pieces just kind of fit in with me. And I was like, Yes, like that's so true. Cause I obviously listened to the cast album after I had seen the production, so my perspective wasn't like that. Um, and then obviously once she said that I was like I'm going through like all of the research of like who this guy was and finding out that he did portraits on all of the women, and so, how did how did he kind of fit in with your development process or your writing process to the show?

[15:58] Toby Marlow: I think we were originally when we first sat down to plan it, we had a kind of thing where there was gonna be like little interludes like between each number, and like maybe we were sort of thinking, like, maybe they'll play, like, you know, uh, maybe Boleyn will play herself, but also we'll like multi-roll as Elizabeth at some point, like you know, maybe they'll take on these things, and then Hans Holbein was just like one of the characters that we were like obsessed with and thought would be really fun as a sort of like camp German fashionista, basically.

[16:22] Toby Marlow: And also I was studying, like very in-depth studying his work as part of my degree. So I was like kind of obsessed with him and like knew a bit about him, and then it's the sort of thing where like as we realized that like we didn't want them multi-rolling, and like you know, this is before like Henry was even in the story, you know, was even decided to not be on stage, like when we realized we wanted them to be themselves, whatever.

[16:42] Toby Marlow: We also then again structurally were like we do sort of need a group number in the middle, and we'd had this like house of Holbein idea is like how we were going to introduce Anna of Cleaves, but also you know, like a card game that was gonna introduce like whoever, and I guess to a certain extent in the show, the one you've been waiting for, introduction to Anne Bolins is sort of like still a relic of that kind of idea. But basically, as we realized we didn't want loads of like interludes that weren't like that were in different roles, Hans Holbein just never really died out, and yeah, we just dramaturgically were like, Oh, we think it would be you know, there's been with we've been through three people, we've got this sort of like lull after the half zone.

[17:16] Toby Marlow: How do we like kick it up a notch or like change the direction completely and like make it kind of like fun and tie the title together? So it was basically just like us like holding on to this old idea and not being able to let go of it, but also yeah, just being like, Oh, we need a group number. And then when we were writing it, it was we then decided we were like, Okay, well, like how can we make this sort of about like a central thesis that like sort of the reflecting the central thesis of the show?

[17:40] Toby Marlow: And so we kind of were like, Okay, well, why don't we make it about like you know, the lyrics about like body image and about like the expectations on women historically and today and like all that kind of stuff so yeah that's kind of how it came about. We wrote it during the rehearsal process of the student production like it it wasn't there when they were rehearsing it and then it was like oh shit we need like a number in the middle yeah I literally like wrote it and then I think I woke up at like 5am to like choreograph it and then teach it to everybody that day.

[18:10] Lucy Moss: Love those stories. Lucy I'm wondering like as a director how do you balance the image of the original women from the history with that of the show that you've written and created and are now directing is there like a definitive decision that needs to be made with each of the queens when you're when you're sitting down and figuring out how you're gonna direct it versus writing.

[18:35] Lucy Moss: What's interesting I think what's helpful for us is that because again it didn't come from a place of us wanting to really accurately like portray these women's lives and like obviously it came from a place of us wanting to be like like as writers us wanting to like re to retell history from a feminist perspective but it wasn't like these six women are so hard done by like it was like kind of like that's sort of a metaphor for all women and essentially when we were writing we were very clear that what we wanted to do was talk about the like exp the feminist like experience today and what what women and non-binary people essentially go through on a daily basis today.

[19:08] Lucy Moss: So so much of so basically that that that sort of central thesis has always put the actual like quote unquote like accuracy or like like whatever in terms of like trying to like authentically recreate the those actual original queens in such a back seat because it's really not about them like they are essentially like six of the most privileged women in privileged white women in history and like we don't it's it's not actually about like those specific individuals being having their stories reclaimed it's sort of about what it is about them but also about what they represent so in terms of like directorially I'm not really interested in like trying to like be true to who those people were so much as I'm interested in being true to what a feminist's story is what is relevant to people's experiences today and to those individual performers what they can bring in themselves.

[19:59] Lucy Moss: So essentially like when we're casting and when we're directing as Toby mentioned with the kind of like having their own queen spirations having them bringing themselves to it like it's so important that they're basically using the story as a vessel for their own experiences in the same way that when we were writing it like what what we essentially did was like go through their their you know the story beats of their lives and go what feels resonant today what bit of my life can I relate to oh yeah this time that somebody decided I was really manipulative essentially because I'm a lady rather than when they wouldn't have treated the man like that.

[20:31] Lucy Moss: Great let's make that part of Amblin's story. So it's sort of about that process applying the kind of the same central thesis we place in the writing to the directorial process. And now what was the process like for both of you once you started to get commercial interest in the show how did that really shift things for you guys in both a creative standpoint and then just in terms of business now at that point and like just the interest from commercial producers and bringing on other creative team members and because it it, you know, I I would assume in my festival experience, like it's this very like tight-knit.

[21:07] Toby Marlow: Um, I'm not sure how many of you guys were involved in the original inception of it, how small your creative team was. But once you start bringing in more people, I'm sure that really like changes things and levels everything up in a way. It was definitely a shift, and it was, you know, I guess like a fairly rocky transition from going from doing this like student production to the production that it is now.

[21:34] Toby Marlow: And you know, that went through several processes of you know, we're doing doing this like showcase production in between that was kind of like a halfway house where we had like some of the team from the fringe, but some people that were gonna be in the production that that it is now, and um, and also like that was you know a transition of Lucy like becoming the director as well.

[21:56] Brian Sedita: So I I had read that you guys were hoping that you know, you maybe like a big fancy director would come by and see you guys at the festival or at the fringe, but then you had a bunch of producers come through and request some meetings. Was it is that true?

[22:10] Toby Marlow: I don't think we were ever hoping for a big director to come and say we weren't hoping for anything. We just thought we were hoping that like one person at least per day would buy a ticket, so that'd be a reason to do that. But I think we really weren't expecting anything, but I think I think we yeah, when producers started coming to see it and it became clear that it was maybe gonna have a future life. Again, like all we were really hoping for at that point was like, oh wow, we might be able to do it for a week at a pub theatre in London. Wouldn't that be amazing?

[22:41] Toby Marlow: And then it sort of, you know, became clear that we were being offered offered some more dramatic and exciting things than that. I mean, not I because I know you just said that the process was a little rocky, getting it from where it was to where it is now, and like not not to go like too far into the rockiness, but I'm just wondering, because I'm sure a lot of people don't realize what happens on the back end when a show is developing. What were what were some of the things that you you didn't expect now are part of the process of bringing something to a commercial production and then taking it out of the festival's orbit.

[23:17] Toby Marlow: You know, like I I think about now getting representation for yourselves. Was that something that you had to establish now? Um, I'm sure speaking with like uh any kind of representation, lawyers, uh writing. We knew literally nothing about how the industry worked. We knew genuinely nothing. And like, and and because Lucy said we were going into the fringe as like a fun summer project with our friends. Like, and Lucy wasn't there, Lucy was um in in Cambridge directing a different show. And so I was kind of there, and like people would come up to me after the show and be like, hi, like I own a theater, or like, hi, I'm a commercial producer, or like, hi, I work in licensing.

[24:01] Toby Marlow: Can we have a meeting? And I was like, I don't know the difference between any of those things. And then like I remember we because we at this point I already knew George Styles, the composer, because he'd been in like a band with my dad at school. And so I like and I'd done my like my work experience with him like a couple of years earlier, and I messaged him be like, hey, like all these people are like asking for like meetings and for all these things, I don't understand anything. And he was like, don't sign anything, just be polite, say you'll meet up with them at some point after the fringe. I'll come see it when it's back in Cambridge and I'll give you my thoughts. But basically, yeah, but then once we did start getting commercial interest after we'd done the end of the student run, we just like knew nothing about what any of it meant.

But then Andy and Wendy Barnes, who are two of the producers currently, um currently as if they're gonna leave the project soon, I reckon they're probably a bit forward. Um, but like, no, yeah, but they're they're they're two of the producers, and they we like went to their office for them to be like, you know, pitch themselves as producers to us, and we were like, we don't want producers art, what is theatre in what is commercial theatre? And they spent like an hour just like detailing us like how the structure of commercial theatre works, what producers are, what royalties are, what blah blah blah blah is that was like the most unbelievably helpful thing. And they were like, even if you don't go with us, like this is how theatre works.

And I was like, Oh god, if like every person that like wants to go into theatre, like have this talking to, it'd be so helpful because it really like demystified a lot of the things that we were stressed about.

[25:31] Toby Marlow: And then, yeah, in terms of representation, um, we actually got a lawyer before we got agents because it was um, you know, when we had this interest from these commercial producers, and they were like, Hey, we want to like do a professional showcase of your show in this West End Theatre in a couple of months. We were like, Wow, that's great, and then they're like, Here's a contract, and we were like, What? Like, what are you talking about? But then like we understood that like having like you know an agent is like a big decision, and it's someone that like is gonna like you know, you want to be someone you it wanna be it wants to be like the right person, you have a really good like connection with someone that you trust, someone that gets you artistically, and we didn't want to like rush into that decision.

We also like had these contracts that we needed to signed, so then um George, the composer, was like, Oh, well, like, why don't my lawyer have a look over them? Because I really trust him. Shout out to John Curren, our fabulous lawyer. And then we met him, and he was like the loveliest person in the whole entire world, and like literally, like he was like, Oh, yeah, they at least all look good. And we're like, Can you explain? Can then we like went away and like read the contract, like from page to page, which I can't say I've ever done since. And he was just like, and we like went through like every single paragraph. Like, so what does this mean? Like subsection clause to a point I like what does that mean, John?

Like, what's a royalty pool? Um, and then like he really like, uh-huh. I still don't know. I don't know what a role is called. But yeah, and then he really like took us through that, and that was really, really helpful. Um, and then from there is when we we met our agents, um Alistair and Helen.

[27:02] Mary Dina: Just like hearing you guys talk about this, just like you said, it's so interesting to have to especially for our listeners to be able to like demystify this process in a little bit because you know, you we only see certain things on the outside, and it's like those things on the on the back end are so interesting, and it's it's so a part of the process. And so important, like so much red tape and so many fine lines too.

[27:25] Lucy Moss: Yeah, I also think I think that like the main thing that like I like would say I like learnt from that time, or like what the main like change was is that like before I'd really thought of what we were doing as like amateur theatre for fun that is like non-professional, and then I'd seen like professional theatre as this like completely separate, completely like above everything else. Like, I was like, we've just been doing you know, we we'd basically been putting on like you know, I feel like I've been involved in like you know, on average, six to eight productions a turn at university, like directing but doing all the basically working like a theatre person full-time, essentially, and then I sort of thought that we knew nothing compared to everybody in the professional world, the professional world was completely different, and on this whole other level, and that and then I think that what I sort of like realized through the process of going through this workshop, which was like slightly more upscale and then doing a tour and then doing all the worst stuff is that it's all the same, like and I really wish that at that time I'd treated the amateur theater world that I was in with the respect of the professional world, and also that I'd treated the professional world with the like lack of respect that I have with the amateur, not the lack of respect, you know what I mean.

I wish I'd like realized that actually you should treat them both with a similar amount of like uh casualness but also seriousness. Do you know what I mean? I just really put them in different places, and that's kind of where a lot of the problems came from, was like us not me personally not understanding that just you know, just because something's quote unquote professional doesn't mean it like that the the previous thing wasn't worth, you know, hasn't hasn't got as much, if not more worth than that. Do you know what I mean? It was just that's sort of the mistake I feel like I personally made and hopefully won't again.

[29:08] Brian Sedita: From I mean, I'm not a writer, I work with a producer and a writer, and I know that the relationship between the two, um, especially like early on in the development process needs to be you know, tight because there's a lot of things, you know, a lot of collaboration involved, a lot of discussions that are being had and choices that are being made. Um, and so I'm curious as to how you both, as you were meeting with producers, um, and you have several producers now who have joined the project between all being even Australia, I'm assuming too now, um, because I just read that this morning. Um, how did you guys know when the producer was it really just a feeling that this producer felt right for the project?

Um, because like you said, you weren't necessarily actively like looking for a commercial producer, they were coming to you, so you kind of had that that luxury of like just meeting with a bunch of people and like getting to know a bunch of producers. So I'm curious as to how you landed on the the core group that you did.

[30:05] Toby Marlow: Yeah, I think as you said, like it just it did feel right, and like it wasn't like we met with like loads and loads and loads and loads and loads. There was like it was just like there was Andy and Wendy who they came like really really early on at the fringe to come see it, and they really it really felt like they liked the piece a lot, and they really like and and they work in like that well at that the time their main thing was perfect pitch, which was like developing new musicals. But when they saw six, they were like, We don't want to do this as perfect pitch because we don't think it needs developing, we think it's close to like a finished product. We we want to like produce it commercially.

And then we met Kenny because George, the composer who I who I'd known came to see it, and he was like, I'm gonna send Kenny, who is someone who I really think is great and who I trust to come see it. And then Kenny came to see it like the next day or two days later, and you know, a few days after that, he was like, I really like it, and I want to I I I trust it enough and I trust you enough to put on a professional showcase in like eight weeks' time uh in in a commercial theater in London. And it was just like the way that they spoke about the show, and like other producers that we'd spoken to were like wanted to like change it a lot or like mold it into something different, and like they were like, Oh, we it needs like a backstory, or it needs like an interval, or it needs like double the amount of songs, whereas those the the ones that we're now with were really like we it needs some adjustments, but we like trust the material, and they really wanted to like put us in a position of like control over it as well. It made us feel like respected, I guess.

[31:53] Lucy Moss: Yeah, totally. What was something that maybe you didn't know about Broadway that maybe it was like the first question you had for the producers about what the Broadway run was going to be like? And I know that it came so far down the line, kind of like it just like the way that we talked with Kevin about it, it was after so many things, it just happened. Um I think for me it's the it's the backstage world is so different in terms of like the unions and like the fact that you can't touch a prop if we've got like there's so many rules, and like it's this entire like sort of language that everybody but you speaks. I think in terms of like the show itself, because we've done it so many times, or because we've literally, you know, this was our cast that we've worked with for months from Chicago, like I don't think that I was particularly like, oh, we should change stuff, or like you know, like worried about like I basically like Broadway is the opportunity to kind of like realize a lot of the changes we wanted to make, or like production, like you know, bells and whistles that we've kind of always wanted to do, but hadn't necessarily had the time or budget to do.

But like, so for me, it wasn't like I wasn't really feeling like uh uneasy about the show or like something to do with that, or whether it was gonna work or not. I sort of felt quite confident about that touch wood, but I think that the uh yeah, that it's the it's the like the the fact that everybody like that there's a sort of like house minimums for the amount of musicians that you can have, and there's you know, everybody backstage like works in that theatre, and in the UK that's really not how it works, and also like there's so many like the rules with like you know, even like tea breaks and timings and all that kind of stuff that just is completely different. That like we it was really great that we had such a brilliant um PSM, Bonnie, um, working on it, who really like held our hands through all of that because it was scary.

[33:39] Lucy Moss: Amazing. Um, so you had mentioned that you had you had either realized changes or that you wanted to make or you had a few changes to make for the Broadway production. But were there other changes that you guys were um holding on to for the Broadway production to make, or was it really just kind of see once you got into the room with with the cast and the creative team to see kind of what came about essentially through the rehearsal process?

[34:02] Toby Marlow: It's more like when you're putting up a replica production and you've got like a certain amount of time to get everything done, get everything up, blah blah blah, not the whole team is there and everything. You and then you watch it and you go through the previews and you like you're always it's always a battle against time, and there were so many things. The changes were mostly like directorial in terms of like design and stuff like that, but and sort of more like elevations as opposed to like changes. But in terms of like the writing, it was like it that the there was there'd be like a bit of it where essentially, spoilers for the show, Catherine Parr, like quote unquote, like stops the show and then like changes the plan for how it usually is.

And before Broadway, it was like sort of in this halfway house where we hadn't fully like committed to that really, it's sort of it just felt like so. There's a bit where she like starts a song and then she's like, I'm not gonna sing my song this evening, and everyone's like, Oh my gosh, but like the intro of that song didn't feel like it actually, you know, it didn't actually feel like the beginning of one of all the other numbers, it was obvious that it wasn't real. So essentially, like the rewrites that we did sort of were like about just like repacing and like committing to that, and it essentially it came about from not from like being in the room and being like, Oh, let's try this, but from like watching processes where you're sitting in the audience, and every night you're like, that's not quite right.

Oh, something that I don't like that like that, all of our rewrites essentially happened from like enduring bad writing for a long time whilst watching a version of the show, and then being like, how can we fix that? And then like over time, us discussing it be like, oh yeah, so next time we do it, let's fix that bit, and we fix that bit, and then we'd watch it all and be like, that bit's just not quite work, or whatever it is. So yeah, it's kind of it was more like we sort of knew what we wanted to address before we went into the room with Broadway. And I'm sure it's been a lot of fun and and a part of the process of getting to watch all these different productions in such a short period of time.

[35:48] Brian Sedita: I mean, four or five years doesn't feel like a short period of time, but having multiple productions kind of stacked and stuff, I'm sure you've been able to see different perspectives and have been able to make some changes accordingly, which is pretty cool. What are some things that you guys are both looking forward to about the next steps and maybe what are some dreams of yours for the production moving forward?

[36:07] Toby Marlow: Because it's so interesting. Because I do want to just say, like, at least here in America, everybody always says like Broadway is like the dream. So, like, you guys made it to Broadway. What is like the dream from here to finish something else?

[36:20] Toby Marlow: To finish another show. I mean, because like literally, as bored everyone to death by saying repeating so many times that when we wrote SIX, it was meant to be it wasn't meant to be anything more than a student production at the fringe. And so, kind of like when a producer was like, I want to do a professional showcase of your work in a West End theater, that was kind of like, oh my god. This is like beyond any dream I could have ever had for my career. This is like ridiculous, this is unbelievable. We're like, our show is gonna be like on in the West End. What the hell? And because I'm like since then, with like everything with the album, it going to like all these other countries, it going to America Broadway. It's kind of like our like dream for the show was kind of like maxed out when I went to the West End and everything like beyond then has been like just like increasingly and exceedingly like unbelievable and incomprehensible and amazing.

[37:17] Toby Marlow: Um and so I kind of feel like speaking for myself, but hopefully for both of us as well, that like the next part of our you know career and journey that we're looking forward to is like obviously like you know, SIX opening on Broadway and like having our opening night and doing that and it being there and us being in New York and having that moment that we haven't really that we missed out on because of COVID. But then after that, like starting from scratch of like putting on like our next show, you know, and like with what with all the knowledge and experience that we've had from doing SIX for the last four years, because we've been running around for four years being like, oh yes, like you know, we're writers, but we wrote the show in 2017 and did some tweaks since then, but like it I'm looking forward to, you know, kind of like and over the past year, you know, we've been being writers and even doing writing, and I'm really looking forward to the journey ahead of like putting on something else, you know.

[38:14] Lucy Moss: Yeah, um, and I don't know, other glamorous things that will come with SIX, I'm sure.

[38:19] Toby Marlow: Yeah, down the line.

[38:21] Lucy Moss: I won't be honest for you.

[38:23] Toby Marlow: Yeah, uh do uh release an album where she covers all of the songs. That's what I want.

[38:27] Lucy Moss: Yeah, beyond Beyoncé performs SIX. Let's put that right out there in the universe.

[38:31] Toby Marlow: I mean, let's start it now. The sequel to the telephone video.

[38:38] Brian Sedita: Any uh anything that you're looking forward to?

[38:41] Lucy Moss: Um, yeah, I'm looking forward to when Beyoncé records her covers of the album. Um yeah, obviously looking forward to Broadway and just like our whole company, like performers and everyone, just like not not even really. I mean, obviously the opening is gonna be so good and amazing, but then after that, when they're like doing it week by week, and we have our like alternates going on and you know, all that kind of stuff that's just gonna be the like day-to-day running of it. I'm just really excited for them to have that because in the UK we've been fortunate enough to have like a few bus here and there where people can have work, and then now they're all up and running, and it's so great to see the companies like that. So I think just like seeing them in their day-to-day running.

[39:16] Lucy Moss: I think also something that um I'm looking forward to in the future is I feel like making sure I think this is something that we mean and Toby were talking about the other day, and in fact, this is something that really Toby's been um bringing to the table a lot, is about the fact that with our casting, we always are very like we really want to encourage like trans people and non-binary people to come be in the show. But so far, the professional version, I don't, unless I'm speaking, well, as far as I'm aware, the professional version hasn't had a trans woman or non-binary person, like in a kind of like paid role in that way. And I feel like I'm really excited for us being more committed to making that happen and opening the space as much as possible and not just being like it's open to you, who come and find it, but really like reaching out to find people and invite them into the space.

[40:03] Toby Marlow: Yeah, that's really exciting.

[40:08] Lucy Moss: Yeah, and the other thing I'd say as well, just going off what Luce was saying before, was that the Broadway company are just so so good.

[40:19] Brian Sedita: Are we getting a cast album?

[40:22] Toby Marlow: Oh my god, dot dot dot Ryan dot. Fingers crossed, fingers crossed. Like, like yeah, finger honestly, fingers crossed. But like, but yeah, I and I'm honestly we got a month of previews of you know New York audiences seeing them. I'm just so excited for the world to see them and to see the Broadway production because it's like it's it's wild. I mean, if you look at the advanced sales, if you look at the advanced sales of a lot of the Broadway shows right now as they reopen in the fall, like you guys have a lot of sold-out dates, and like I haven't seen that.

[40:57] Toby Marlow: Yes, I haven't seen that in because I'm crazy and I look at that stuff, I would be looking at you know, whatever, but you guys have literal blacked out sold-out dates, which is like an anomaly, apparently, right now, moving forward into the fall. So people are so excited to see SIX, and that's just so exciting for you guys and your whole company.

[41:17] Brian Sedita: Um we always end our episodes. Uh Mary, is it okay if I go into the lightning round?

[41:21] Mary Dina: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[41:22] Brian Sedita: Okay, so we always end our episodes with a lightning round.

[41:25] Lucy Moss: So it's no, no, no, no. There's no pressure.

[41:28] Brian Sedita: You are Ross Gala.

[41:31] Lucy Moss: No pressure, you don't have to, you don't have to speed through them.

[41:38] Brian Sedita: So let's uh establish an order.

[41:41] Brian Sedita: So Lucy and then Toby for all the questions, just so we we know what we're doing here.

[41:46] Lucy Moss: You're putting Lucy right on the screen.

[41:49] Brian Sedita: Right. So what is one thing in the theater industry that confuses you?

[41:54] Lucy Moss: Tea breaks, minus royalty pools.

[41:57] Brian Sedita: What are three adjectives that describe your ideal working environment?

[42:01] Toby Marlow: Fun, supportive, communicative.

[42:05] Lucy Moss: Oh my god. Fun as well. Um like inclusive, um, and um like fair.

[42:18] Brian Sedita: Sure. Is there something in your process that you find unique to you as an artist that you like to bring with you on each you know show that you work on?

[42:26] Toby Marlow: I say the phrase, but why about 400 times a day? Always questioning.

[42:30] Lucy Moss: Um, my unstoppable banter.

[42:39] Brian Sedita: What is one job in the theater industry that you would trade jobs with for one week?

[42:45] Lucy Moss: Costume designer, one of the queens of SIX.

[42:50] Toby Marlow: And you did, didn't you?

[42:51] Lucy Moss: You did that.

[42:52] Toby Marlow: I did, but only only for two shows.

[42:54] Lucy Moss: I'd do the whole goddamn week if I could.

[42:56] Toby Marlow: Oh I could play all of them in rotation for that week.

[43:01] Brian Sedita: Yeah. Are there bootlegs of that?

[43:02] Lucy Moss: I want to see.

[43:03] Toby Marlow: Um there are.

[43:04] Lucy Moss: There are.

[43:06] Brian Sedita: Um what is one hobby that you both have outside of the theater industry?

[43:13] Toby Marlow: Kayaking.

[43:14] Lucy Moss: We have not had that answer before.

[43:16] Toby Marlow: Doing my makeup.

[43:18] Brian Sedita: Do you have any books or any resources that you have found helpful to you as you've made your way through over the last four or five years?

[43:26] Lucy Moss: Yes. Um, the Royal Court does a writer's podcast, um, or did a writer's podcast that Simon Stevens uh was hosting.

[43:35] Lucy Moss: Um, and that's very interesting. Just hearing playwrights talking about their process and stuff like um, we someone was like, I do all my meetings on one day, so then not distracted for the rest of the week, and then we sort of did that, you know, stuff like that. Tips and tricks from the Royal Court Playwrights podcast.

[43:50] Toby Marlow: Honestly, the most the thing that like it's not like a book or a podcast, but that's like the thing that I found most helpful is like talking to other writers about what about their process and especially writing partners. And anytime that we've done like a writing retrieval, sorry, it's not lightning round, is it? The first writing, sorry, but it but it's like communicating with other writers and like forming like networks with other writers is it just really helps me and us, I think.

[44:21] Brian Sedita: Yeah, that's that's really that's interesting, and so um that makes sense.

[44:26] Brian Sedita: Um and then our final question is what is your favorite part about the development process of a new show?

[44:33] Lucy Moss: Uh playing a friend, that's no the feeling you get when you're really excited to play one of your songs to a friend, and you're just like, so we wrote this song today, and it was like desperate for them to be like, oh can I hear it, and then like when you play it to them, or when you're like, I'm really nervous about whether this is gonna go well, and you play someone a song and they like really respond in the way that you've hoped and dreamed.

[44:55] Toby Marlow: Um, that's the best. As Lucy said, that moment when like we're writing something, and then like the spark happens, and you're like, oh my god, and you just like get it out and you can't stop, and you're laughing and you're working on it, and then you're like like getting really excited about something that you're writing, and as you said, you're like, oh my god, I just like can't wait to play this to a friend to for the world to see this really good moment. Love that, but uh that that's my favorite one.

[45:18] Toby Marlow: But to do one that's different to Lucy's, the like I love a sits probe, or I think in America maybe you call it a Vondle probe.

[45:27] Lucy Moss: No, sits probe, yeah.

[45:29] Toby Marlow: And like just like the first time you hear that all come together uh in any show, that's always really fun. And also, I think like we used to this thing on SIX of like the first day of rehearsals when like I'd go in and like sing the show, like before the album came out, but I'd like to sing the show, the piano to like the cast, and like, or just like the moment like in any show that that I've done where like the people who are gonna be performing the material hear the material for the first time and are getting all excited about it, and then you're kind of like visualizing them doing it as the hearing it for the first time. That's always quite like an electric moment. Really fun, fun vibe with that.

[46:08] Brian Sedita: Amazing. Well, thank you both for joining us. Where can our listeners find you guys on social if they want to hear more, learn more?

[46:18] Lucy Moss: Oh, yeah. Um I'm at Moosey Loss, so it's like Lucy Moss, but you switched the M and the L around, you know, um like Twitter and Instagram and stuff. I think I misses Moosey Loss on TikTok because somebody there's a fake version of myself because I didn't get in there quick enough, so I'm at SIX the Musical.

[46:43] Toby Marlow: I'm at the Toby Marlow, which I have regretted ever since I made, but yeah, at the Toby Marlow, if you wanna check me out.

[46:54] Brian Sedita: Amazing, amazing, yeah. Thank you both so much, and especially for like enduring all of the technical issues that we've had during this episode.

[47:02] Lucy Moss: For any listeners, we've been kicked on and off like multiple times, but it's cool.

[47:05] Toby Marlow: We made it through, and I'm gonna have to do that.

[47:08] Brian Sedita: It'll be a seamless edit. Um, and uh, you know, wishing you guys the best with your Broadway debut.

[47:18] Toby Marlow: Thank you.

[47:19] Lucy Moss: I'm hope to see you there.

[47:20] Brian Sedita: Woo! Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of Page to Stage. To keep up with us, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook at Page2Stage Podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, we have other episodes with theater makers from SIX the Musical. Check them out. Until next time. That's Brian. That's Mary. We'll see you later.