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[0:07] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theater podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders who are making waves during the pandemic and beyond. On Broadway, off Broadway, and around the world. I'm your host, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to ChiChi Anyanwu. She turned heads back in March when, in the face of the shutdown that darkened theaters around the world, she launched a business, Chi Talent Management, representing a diverse array of performers across theater, TV, and film. She's also been a diversity consultant for Broadway and Off-Broadway productions and theaters, and a producer. And her work with Chi Talent Management gives her a unique perspective on finding and creating work during the pandemic.

She's in the virtual studio with me to talk about the role and the potential of talent managers in a moment when the industry at large is working to widen its lens and be more inclusive, as well as discuss the biggest conversations in casting and what she expects as theater and as the entertainment industry overall come back to life. Hey ChiChi, thanks for joining me.

[1:12] ChiChi Anyanwu: Oh, thanks for having me.

[1:14] Gordon Cox: You have found yourself in the position of running and growing a new business, just as the industry you're in is going through this massive convulsion and this long period of really deep uncertainty. How have you kept yourself and your company active during this time?

[1:31] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, right now, honestly, I've been really encouraging my clients to create their own content. So I have a lot of clients who are now studying writers who are working on pilot scripts, who are working on theater plays, and who are developing the kind of work that they want to see themselves in. So I've been just trying to tell my clients to be positive, be proactive. I know that it's very slow in terms of auditions right now, but is there anything else that you could be collaborating with, maybe another writer, collaborating with another artist? Because I just tell people right now there's gonna be so much new work coming out of what's happening right now. And like how do you want to use this time? Do you want to use this time to kind of wait for us to bring you in auditions or do you want to use the time to really work on your craft and work on yourself as an artist?

[2:12] Gordon Cox: And these are largely performers that you're working with.

[2:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, I primarily work with actors.

[2:18] Gordon Cox: Right, right. And more and more, I imagine as the pandemic goes on. And so for listeners who might not know, what is a talent manager and how is it different from any other role in the theater like being an agent, for instance?

[2:33] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, I would say, you know, it's kind of like a thin line in terms of what we do versus what the agent does. We, same way as the agents, they procure work, they look for acting auditions, they look for submissions, they build relationships with casting directors. We kind of do the same thing. Like we also are seeing the same breakdowns and submissions that the agents see. So we're also submitting our clients and looking for work, but we're also helping with developing and nurturing talent. A lot of my clients for the most part, some of them are fresh out of grad school or some of them are actors who have maybe worked more so in theater but they want to get more involved with like the television film world.

So I'm kind of here to help develop them and make sure that they're ready for the next step of their career. So a lot of times with agents, they may be looking for the projects that are kind of like the happening right away, the easy money projects, and focusing more so on negotiating and auditions. I'm focusing on the long-term career in terms of how can we help you to get to point A to point B? How do we make sure that you're ready for those series regular auditions? How do we also make sure that your headshots look a certain way? So we do a lot of the work that maybe the agent might not necessarily have time to do in terms of that overall development and that guidance.

[3:44] Gordon Cox: Yeah, it's a sort of career counseling kind of. And then how do you work then in tandem with the agents, for instance, and with casting directors? And how does that web sort of string together?

[3:59] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, with my clients that have agents, sometimes we work kind of like a tag team. Like there are certain offices that I know that the agents may have stronger relationships with. I may like send a message to an agent saying, "Hey, I hear so and so is casting this project. I'm submitting on my end, but can you make sure to follow up or do a push?" Or there may be times that I may not necessarily have time to get to a certain project with the client, but I know that the agent has clients that may have been seen on this television show or been involved with this producer or director. So it's also about how do we make use of each other's relationships and how do we work together as opposed to working in competition or working against one another?

Like I'm very much about communicating, "Hey, this is what I'm working on. Can you take the lead on this or I'm gonna take the lead on this project?" So we're not crossing, you know, stepping on other people's toes, I would say, and crossing wires. We just want to make sure that we're always communicating so the client knows what I'm doing and the client knows what the agent's doing as well. And if a project does come up, sometimes I'll have the agent take the lead in terms of negotiating the contract, or sometimes I'll take the lead. It just really depends on how do we communicate what we're working on.

[5:06] Gordon Cox: And did you ever think about being an agent? Because as you say, they do perform similar functions. Like why is talent management the right fit for you in particular?

[5:15] ChiChi Anyanwu: I would say with me, I worked as an assistant at a smaller boutique agency, but even though it was a smaller boutique agency, they had about 100 plus clients. And I know with me, I like the idea of really getting to know my clients and really getting that time to develop and to see how we can also nurture them. I feel like when I was working with an agency, they had so many clients, there was no time to kind of help them on their picking out the right headshot photographer or working on their website and giving them notes and feedback on their audition tapes. I wanted that extra time that I can spend with the client as opposed to it just being about negotiating contracts and focusing on auditions and submitting.

I really want to make sure I had enough time to really get to know my clients too. Because sometimes also when I feel like agents may have a handful of clients that they work with, but there's only a handful that they really get to know. And I like the personal aspect of talent management that may not necessarily be the same way in an agency when you have so many people that it's hard to really be on the phone with every single client every single week.

[6:21] Gordon Cox: And what do you feel like your skills are or your strengths are in terms of what you have an eye for and what you look out for developing and nurturing?

[6:32] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, I really I'm a big fan of the theater. Like before COVID happened, I would be at the theater probably like two or three times a week. I would go see new plays, I would go to readings, I would go to musicals. And I love the idea of being an audience member and getting familiar with all different kinds of work. So sometimes I would see a show and I see someone that's like, "Oh, I've never seen the actor before," or I'd find out where they come from, or did they just graduate school or who are they with? So I definitely am someone that I like to discover either new talent or this town that may not necessarily be the household name yet. You know, I want to look for those people who are also like diamonds in the rough that I can also help to further develop their careers.

[7:10] Gordon Cox: And so back in the spring when you announced you'd be starting your own business as Chi Talent Management, it sort of felt like a breath of fresh air, or at least like a little burst of optimism at this time when all the news we were getting out of the industry was extremely grim and frankly remains pretty grim. What prompted you to go out on your own? Like where were you and what prompted you to go out on your own at that point?

[7:34] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, I would just say at the start of March, I had gotten let go, unfortunately. And it's not just me, a lot of people had lost their jobs at management companies and agencies, people were furloughed. So something that I kind of saw coming. I'm just like, "Well, how is she gonna be able to pay for my salary if nothing's coming in?" Our clients who were on Broadway, you know, none of them are getting their checks anymore. And there's so many projects that people had lined up that have either been canceled or delayed because of COVID. So even when I found myself out of a job, you know, originally I was thinking about applying at different management companies and trying to figure out where I fit in.

But, you know, unfortunately, I will say there's not a lot of managers that from what I've seen focus on having smaller rosters and really focus on diverse voices and diverse talent. So I kind of wanted to just create the kind of management company that I didn't see in the industry, you know. And the reality is like I only know one Black female manager of color that's based in New York. And then I know probably about five Black agents or Black managers in the city. So there's also just a small number in terms of African American agents and managers that are in the industry in New York. So I kind of wanted to, you know, just take that leap of faith and try to figure out how can I also be part of the solution as opposed to the problem that the lacking in diversity in terms of behind the scenes. And I feel like I just wanted to take that step. And I feel like it is important for other actors or writers and creators to see people who are also diverse in representation too.

[8:53] Gordon Cox: And that's a big part of the conversation that the theater industry and the entertainment industry is having not just about the kind of inclusivity on stage but also behind the scenes, which, you know, particularly on Broadway is overwhelmingly white mostly. So yeah. And so what was the response when you announced?

[8:55] ChiChi Anyanwu: Oh, people are excited. I was like that literally was that like I guess everyone has a like Oprah aha moment that was like, "Oh my gosh, everyone's excited about this." So I'm doing something right basically. Or people just like, "Well, how can you design our own company five years ago?" I'm just like, "Well, I'm growing like everyone else. I wasn't running my own company five years ago because the reality is that people don't talk about in terms of when you're starting your own company, you need to have a certain amount of money to start your own company. You're gonna be able to afford to pay for these services that you have that you need to do as a manager. Do you have to pay for office space?

Are you going to hire interns? You also have to pay for money to get an LLC. There's so many things in terms of fees that no one really talks to you about when you're starting your own company in New York. You know, there's all kinds of fees that I didn't know when you're opening up an LLC that I discovered after that. So I actually did a fundraising campaign through this site called IFund Women and I was actually able to raise a substantial amount of money in a little less than a month and a half. And that was people who were not only my friends and family but people in the arts community in New York that really got behind me and supported me. So it was so great to have that support from the community knowing that I don't see a lot of people of color who are in representation and they really supported me. So that was great to kind of get that feedback from folks.

[10:35] Gordon Cox: You may have just answered this question, but my next question was what has been the largest challenge to overcome in this time?

[10:41] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, I would say with me, I'm just kind of working on just keeping my clients positive because I feel like sometimes even with me, like it's so hard to get press. You know, so I'm talking to people about really taking care of themselves, like taking self-care, whether it's looking into therapy services, looking into financial services. I actually did a workshop with my clients. I had a financial advisor friend that did a workshop about finances and saving money during corona. You know, I have another friend that's doing a voiceover workshop with my clients and they would talk about, "Oh, voiceovers do the it's booming right now." So how do you also get into voiceovers? What are the tools that you need? So I just want to make sure that I'm also providing those resources and just providing that kind of like, you know, everyone needs that cheerleader behind them.

[11:43] ChiChi Anyanwu: So I'm just really making sure I'm that cheerleader for my clients because it is a time that like a lot of people are out of work right now. You know a lot of my clients some of them were used to getting like five six auditions a week and now they're only getting like one or two if they're lucky you know so just making sure that I I'm you know keeping them you know optimistic about what's happening and just also you know keeping my ear to the ground in terms of knowing like when is theater coming back? You know, how's the TV and film industry looking in New York? What's happening in LA and just make sure that I'm also um doing my homework in terms of knowing what's going on industry.

[12:13] Gordon Cox: How do you do that homework?

[12:15] Gordon Cox: How, with the ground that you're putting your ear to, is that making calls?

[12:18] Gordon Cox: Is that, you know, keeping up with the news?

[12:21] Gordon Cox: Tell me about the work on your end for that.

[12:23] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah.

[12:23] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah. So I've been doing a lot of general meetings. Like I've been doing general meetings with cast directors, with producers, with agents. So I just been asking those questions in terms of like with the casting merchants, like, what are the projects that you're working on? You know, how are things being cast now? Are you doing everything via Zoom? So just to making sure that I'm I'm asking the right questions to folks who are, you know, working on projects now. And then I also am always on deadline. I'm always on playball.com and you know, reading all those articles and just seeing what's happening in New York and LA and Atlanta, and just always, you know, I'm always kind of just reading and just trying to figure out what's happening now.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: And how do you do that homework? How with the ground that you're putting your ear to, is that making calls? Is that you know being keeping up with the news? Tell me about the work on your end for that.

[16:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: It does feel like it's gonna be a lot more things happening like digitally. So even now, like I'm also just doing my homework in terms of like let me go on Netflix and watch some more shows that I normally wouldn't watch, but this because I feel like Netflix and Hulu and Amazon, um, even HBO Max, all these streaming services, I feel like that's the future. So I definitely think there's definitely gonna be a lot more films being um released via streaming and even with the musicals, you know, the musicals. Um, I think there's gonna be a lot more TV musicals or uh musicals being done for film, you know. I think uh because we're not sure when theater is gonna come back. I think people are gonna try to do as much things on camera as possible that maybe normally would have been like a live art presentation or would have been in a theater, you know, at a, you know, so I definitely think it's it's gonna change in that way. So I'm just making sure that I'm like preparing myself to make sure that like okay, make sure my clients are ready.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: Yeah, and I I have wondered if going forward the as during this time the sort of link between screen and stage sort of gets, you know, they do something like Diana for Netflix.

[16:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: Like exactly. That probably won't go away once we're done. Like, like the initiatives like won't necessarily go away. And so it makes sense to yeah, sort of I think it's gonna come back more. Like even with Hamilton, like, oh, that's yeah, yeah.

[16:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: Oh, I think that's gonna happen with a lot more musicals that are gonna be done on you know Disney Plus or some of the streaming services. And even now I have a client that's doing Jesus Christ Superstar in um London.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: So normally they'll they'll do it. Are they performing? Are they back up and running?

[16:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, so they're back up and running. But here's the thing like there's uh it's the Regent Theater, and it's known to have I think like 1200 seats, like an outdoor amphitheater, but only allowing about 350 people in the amphitheater, and there's kind of like a spillover theater that's like um well, it's not not even a theater, a spillover like group of people who are going to be watching it via like a projector outside. So, like they're using all different types of technology, you know, because like they can't have a lot of people in the space at one time, but they're gonna have that projector as like another option people who can't actually be in the amphitheater.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: So how many of your clients actually have a job right now? That seems so unusual.

[16:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: I I only have one client right now that's I have a few clients who are co-creating their own stuff. I have a uh a young lady that's in Taiwan, she's doing like an independent film in Taiwan, she's doing some comedy shows in Taiwan. Um, and then I few other kids who are kind of doing like Zoom readings, and I know I have a girl who's doing like a Zoom musical, so it's more like kind of like virtual stuff in terms of like working, like the only one working right now is uh uh a young client that we have that's doing this Jesus Christ Superstar in London. I'm hoping, you know, I'm hoping that's gonna change. Hopefully, hopefully soon.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: I'll have more with ChiChi right after the break.

[16:14] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with talent manager ChiChi Anyanwu. You mentioned this, uh, that part of your sort of idea for the business model was focusing on the career of the careers of this like very diverse group of artists. And that sort of coincided with you know the national conversation that's suddenly happening starting in June after the murder of George Floyd. And how do you feel like you and your company are sort of positioned to think about the ways that the industry could move forward as we're all sort of discussing and having this national reckoning uh with racial justice?

[16:28] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, I think right now that even as in my circles, like there's a movement called um there's like a we see you what movement. So it's a movement with a lot of folks in the industry, and they're basically calling attention to different theaters, not only the Broadway theaters, but the regional theaters, the off-broadway theaters, and this nationally in terms of it's great that you want to produce work by people of color, but you also have to make sure that you also are hiring people of color in the leadership positions, whether it's the the director, but not not only the director, but also the artistic staff, or who do you have on the production staff, you know? Like it can't just be about seeing representation on stage on screen, but also like who are you hiring behind the scenes?

[17:07] ChiChi Anyanwu: So someone like me, you know, you know, the thing that I'm I love that's happening now, I think people are being a lot more generous with their time because I do see someone, you know, I'm obviously African American, you know, I'm a a young woman who also was starting my career. Um, I do think that people are being, you know, they're being a lot more open now because you know they're excited to see someone of color in a position like mine, you know. And even with my clients, you know, I'm all my clients I'm also encouraging to also write because they're looking for diverse voices. You know, I'm really making sure that I'm also making sure they're taking classes and making sure I'm giving them notes and feedback.

So because it is a time that I think people are looking for, you know, a lot more um diverse voices. I just want to make sure that their work is ready, you know. So when I am pitching them or sending them, you know, to different projects or different network meetings that they're that just ready, they're ready for what's happening right now. I do feel like people are really looking for just for new faces now. You know, I think a lot of times we were focused on like the kind of like the same, you know, A-list, B list folks in the industry, but I think people now are looking to just, you know, share more space with folks that maybe they they normally didn't give a chance to.

[18:10] ChiChi Anyanwu: So I definitely think it's now, you know, people are being a lot more inclusive in terms of like, let's look at people that we normally, you know, maybe they don't have an agent or maybe they don't have a manager, or maybe, you know, really represent, but they haven't produced yet. Who should I who should I know about that's like producing work or creating work of color? You know, so I'm I'm definitely like getting messages from people all over. Like I had a meeting with a few people who were at different regional theaters and they just kind of want to get to know me. They want to get to know my clients um because they do know that I have a diverse roster and they just want to know what like I'm working on when my clients are working on. So it's definitely been a great time right now.

[18:43] Gordon Cox: Yeah. And you alluded to this earlier that uh you are one of the few um black or people of color um working in um, you know, particularly in sort of representation and management and things like that. How have your experiences in the industry up till now sort of influenced the way you think about what you do and what your ambitions are going forward?

[19:05] ChiChi Anyanwu: It's interesting too. Like my sister's with um a top agency. She's a writer.

[19:10] Gordon Cox: Yeah, your sister, we should say is a performer and a playwright. She's written a couple of her name's Ngozi Anyanwu.

[19:14] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, I'm gonna give her a shout-out. Yeah, yeah. She had a good grief at the vineyard and she did a show at The Atlantic called the Homecoming Queen.

[19:21] Gordon Cox: Yeah, exactly.

[19:22] ChiChi Anyanwu: And she's someone who's working on like TV and film projects. And I remember when I was starting my company, she made a comment saying, like, well, you know, ChiChi, you know, why don't you like wait? Like, she actually made a comment, like, you know, there may be more, you know, places hiring people, you know, there may also be diversity hires. So she had this whole thing about like, you know, are you sure now is a good time to start it? But I just feel like, you know, it's it's it's now or never, you know, the fact that like, you know, do I want to be, I don't know, like a small small fish in a in a big pond and like, you know, be that diversity hire, or do I want to actually like be able to like, you know, shape the the way the business thinks of representation.

And I also I also want to be someone who can also be an example and be like, you know, a mentor to someone else who's coming up. Because even when I came out as like, you know, I wanted to be an agent or I want to be a manager. I worked in casting before, you know, there wasn't there's very few people who look like me. Like there's no one that I could email as like a mentor. So I'm hoping that when people see my face, it's also gonna inspire more people of color to be like, oh, maybe I can work in representation, like I maybe I can be an agent or a manager or a cast director. So I also feel like it is important for people to see, like, hey guys, we're not just performing for you, but we're also like, you know, negotiating contracts, we're also producing, we're also, you know, in leadership positions, so it's not just about you know hiring us and then and seeing us perform. I I do want to make sure that like, you know, I think it's important for me to also, you know, uh be that face as well, so people can know that oh, you can do it as well, you know.

[20:46] Gordon Cox: Yeah, I as you mentioned where uh that actually is uh fits right in with my next question. And you started out in casting. Tell me about what uh that like sort of what casting, what you have learned from uh your experience casting and how that informs what you're doing now.

[21:01] ChiChi Anyanwu: Well, I love that I started off with casting first because this gives me a better insight in terms of just knowing how how what casting directors look for, even when they're looking at submissions and knowing that, like, oh, they're they're going through hundreds and sometimes thousands of submissions, and they're not gonna have time to bring in every single actor that submits, you know. There's a lot of things that go into place in terms of who they bring in. It really has to be someone that's perfect for the role. And if it's someone that's also, let's say, doesn't necessarily have a strong resume, you know, that person also has to have certain materials, whether it's a good acting role that's gonna, you know, have the you know, casting or just think about bringing them in.

Because even before I remember I worked at an agency and I asked the question, you know, I guess I was trying to make poke buttons like, hey, I'm seeing a lot of the same actors come in all the time, you know, and they made a comment, like, you know, we're casting three or four different projects, you know, we're gonna basically bring in sometimes a lot of the same people that we know because we know their work ethic. We know let's say they went to this program, you know. So there's so many things that that go hand in hand. Because sometimes you think it's it's about, you know, things are going to be cast and it's gonna be the best person for the role, but there's so many different puzzle pieces that are put together.

And some people also have a say in terms of like who gets cast. It's not really like I thought used to be the casting directors were, you know, with the people who made decisions, but like, no, it's actually other directors, it's a producer, sometimes it's network. You know, there's so many people that you know go hand in hand in terms of making these casting decisions. So even the the nods I can talk to my clients about, like just do your best work. And if you even you don't necessarily get cast, like that casting will become a fan of you, they'll look for work for you, you know, they'll try to find figure out how they can fit you in to other projects that they're working on. So I also thought people know sometimes it's not really also about the role.

Like I also feel like everyone has everyone's basically a booking away from stardom. So even if you don't necessarily get this, just know that there'll be something else down the line as long as you're doing the work and as long as you're you know, you know, doing the the best work that you can do in the terms of the audition, but there's no reason why you shouldn't eventually, you know, end up where you want to be end up, you know, as an artist.

[22:53] ChiChi Anyanwu: It seems like in the world of casting in particular and in theater in particular, we used to talk a whole lot about colorblind casting and now it seems like the conversation has shifted much more toward color conscious casting.

[23:07] ChiChi Anyanwu: Still about inclusivity but still also maintaining awareness of a person's, of an actor's specific background. Can you tell me a little bit about how that shift means for the kind of work that you're looking for for your clients and the kind of work you see them doing in the future?

[23:24] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, like I also tell my clients about like never feel like you have to lead with your race. Even if it's obviously, hey, you're African American, you're Asian, you're from Spain. I want to make sure that when I'm submitting and pitching clients, it's for the role that best fits what they can do as an actor and also the kind of work that they're excited about. And it doesn't have to be because they fit the descriptions. Because sometimes I also, like, you know, I don't think a lot of people do this, but like I'll see a role that may be for, let's say, someone who's Caucasian, and then sometimes I'll still submit my client who's not Caucasian. You know, but like, oh, my client would do really well in this type of role. I'm so gonna submit. You know, so not feel like you have to be limited to race unless it's something very specific.

[24:03] ChiChi Anyanwu: There are certain projects that, like, of course, it may be specific in terms of race and area and upbringing and where that place takes place. But if it's something that could be, let's say, ethnicities, you know, I want to try to make sure that I'm submitting the best people for the roles and not having it to be only about race. Because sometimes, you know, there are people who are looking for like maybe one Black person for certain projects or one Asian person or one Indian person. You know, there's so many different things in terms of how casting handles these breakdowns. But I do want to make sure that folks don't feel like, you know, I'm only submitting them for things that are just specific to their culture.

[24:40] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah.

[24:41] ChiChi Anyanwu: And one can hope, at least in this moment, that people might be more interested in more broadly about, yeah. And I also want people to think about, you know, I think before I would see like different projects in terms of like character must speak Spanish or the character, but now that I'm seeing specifically like, oh, Mexican Spanish also must be a native in Mexico. So I'm also hoping that people know that like, you know, people also want to see authenticity and not just see people who are passing as well.

[25:08] ChiChi Anyanwu: Cause I've also been seeing sometimes are people who are passing, let's say they're Puerto Rican, but they really like, you know, African American light skin, you know. So I also want to make sure people are being more specific in terms of like what they're looking for if they are trying to be culturally specific.

[25:21] ChiChi Anyanwu: Right, as well.

[25:22] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah.

[25:23] ChiChi Anyanwu: And you've also produced events and programs too. Will you continue to do such things?

[25:29] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah, I definitely want to do more of that. Like I am, I'm a bona fide theater nerd, so I would love to just do like more readings and more new work. Me and my sister and a close playwriting friend of mine, she's also a TV writer. Her name's Stephanie Saudufia, who also had a great Off-Broadway run. Yeah, we have a group called Now Africa, it's also with Erin Cherry, who's a producer and actress, and we did a reading series and it focused on writers from the African diaspora, and that was at NYU. But because everyone's been so busy, my sister and Faniso Cherry, they've been working on TV and, you know, doing all these great projects that there's just been no time to produce. So I'm hoping that, you know, once things have, you know, things have technically slowed down a bit, I'm hoping we can do something, even if students put this together virtually, we can get that back up and running.

[26:12] ChiChi Anyanwu: And before, I also used to get hired as a diversity audience consultant for different theaters as well.

[26:18] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah. Because sometimes, you know, playwrights, my biggest thing that I would hear from playwrights of color is that like the audience is not diverse. So sometimes I would get hired in terms of like, you know, looking at different research, you know, doing research and looking at different groups to invite to different plays and also doing some marketing and doing some PR work to try to get people who normally may not say go to theater to get excited about theater because they're seeing themselves on stage.

[26:42] ChiChi Anyanwu: Yeah.

[26:43] Gordon Cox: And you will continue, do you anticipate continuing to do more marketing?

[26:46] ChiChi Anyanwu: I'm hoping. I'm hoping actually I would love for them to actually hire someone like on staff, you know, full time or part time. Cause even what I do is like that should be someone in the marketing PR staff, right? You know, like I kind of mainly did it because a lot of my friends are writers and they would just be like teaching, you know, a group of people. You have these great networks on social media, you know, please invite your friends. Please invite people that you know in the industry. You know, because I'm someone who I'm very active on social media and very active in terms of when it comes to Black theater, so people would, you know, see my posts and see how people get excited about theater when I'm posting something.

But at the same time, like I really would love them to have someone on staff who could really focus on things year-round and not just have it be, oh, we're doing an African American show, so let's focus on this audience. But it's really about like how do we also make sure that our season is diverse enough that we're reaching out to everyone for our entire season, not just the one project that reflects their culture, you know?

[27:37] Gordon Cox: Right.

[27:38] Gordon Cox: Yeah. That was, I think you just answered my next question, which was what do you feel like theaters and producers are not doing that they could be doing? And that's probably just having someone on staff to talk about.

[27:51] ChiChi Anyanwu: Having a consultant, you know, having a consultant on staff that they can have for these projects. You know, I know that certain theaters are definitely, you know, doing a better job than others, but I definitely think there definitely could be more work in terms of like audience development, marketing, and then PR especially. Because sometimes, I have a friend that they got a great Off-Broadway premiere, and there's like she just knowing of color in the audience, you know. And the biggest thing is like, well, how are they reaching out to Black Press? Are they reaching out to groups, organizations? Like there's so many things that you could be doing in terms of prep work. So you're not, you know, feeling like, you know, you're not putting in that work in terms of like are the writers creating work that's specific to, you know, a certain culture? Like wouldn't that be a given that like you can do that prep ahead of time to make sure that you're reaching out to the audience, you know?

[28:38] Gordon Cox: Right.

[28:39] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Have you, in that capacity, have you also, or thinking in that with that brain, have you also thought about the ways that you can, that the industry can be doing more to reach out to people for positions behind the scenes? Because as we were saying, you know, we need to diversify not just on stage but also backstage. Are there ways that you feel like we could speak more directly to everybody to let them know that there are opportunities?

[29:08] ChiChi Anyanwu: Um, yeah, definitely. I know with me when I first graduated, like I did an internship with the McCarter Theater. And that's something that like honestly, I wouldn't have known about that unless like I'm a hunter, so, but not that not everyone hunts like I hunt, right? Yeah, sometimes it might take you actually going to different, you know, education programs, going into high schools, going to colleges and really doing that like recruiter outreach, right? Because I feel like I wouldn't have known about most of my opportunities if I didn't like know someone or if I didn't like do that research. And sometimes also when people post, it's very quick, or like sometimes I'll get listings about different arts and mid jobs, but through like my circles, and those things might not have to be posted everywhere, you know.

[29:49] Gordon Cox: Right.

[29:49] ChiChi Anyanwu: So I do think there has to be more outreach, and I think it'll probably start with like a really good internship program. Cause I think even when I was hired as a casting intern actually with Laura Stanzik, Laura Stanz is like, I really wanted a woman or I wanted someone of color, you know, so it does take someone in a leadership position to be like, I want to specifically hire someone who is underrepresented, you know. So I'm hoping that people will be more open to, you know, being more inclusive in terms of their hiring processes.

[30:15] Gordon Cox: Yeah.

[30:16] Gordon Cox: And so with everything that's going on and all the challenges involved in launching a business and also the challenges in just getting the theater industry back up and running, what, as you look ahead, is giving you hope for your business and for the industry at large?

[30:32] ChiChi Anyanwu: I think the thing that's giving me hope is like I've been going to a lot of Zoom readings and I also have been like reading a lot of plays and reading a lot of pilots and new scripts. So I think the thing that's giving me hope is just seeing people who are also still creating during this time. You know, I'm seeing people who are also like, you know, not waiting for, you know, their agent to put them into a big television project. They're like making a web series from like their apartment, you know? So I'm just inspired by just seeing all the new work that people are creating during this time. And this knowing that like even with theater now, even though theater, you know, we don't know when it's gonna be back professionally, people are gonna find creative ways to make their own version of theater.

They're gonna be doing a Zoom reading of a new play. They're going to be doing something outside. So I love hearing about all these productions that are now going to be done either outside or to be done via Zoom, and you know, people are trying to figure out how could, how do we still create during this time until it's time for us to kind of get back to work and get back to on stage and of course get paid doing it. So I just get inspired just by seeing like the artist community just, you know, continue to create and to be proactive.

[31:38] ChiChi Anyanwu: And even with, I'm not sure if you heard about, there was a movement called, I think it was called Be an Arts Hero. And even yesterday, like I saw the video of, um, there were, I don't know, something about when I hear the music of Rent, it just makes me tear up. Like I just, I just like, like it's just, you know, I just remember seeing the video and was like, this is beautiful. You know, it's so crazy that like, you know, someone made a comment about like, you know, theater being, whether theater or not theater is essential or not. And I'm just like, theater's always essential. I feel like, like the arts save lives. You know, there's so many people who, you know, the arts being in this play or being involved in this community really help, you know, make them a better person.

And, you know, I love seeing a show and feeling like, oh, I learned something new about humanity or I'm left different or I'm, you know, I'm moved to just be better, you know? So I just love that there's just so many things coming out of this movement and how we're realizing like, no, art is essential. We have to really, you know, urge our senators, our, you know, the president, you know, the orange man, you know, the politics and the leaders to like really do something about the arts. You know, because even with New York, even I got back to New York from Liberty Holiday and even just going back and how is this, it's just not the same. It's not the same energy, you know? And I feel like theater is really what, you know, I personally think that's what makes New York feel so alive is the theater community.

You know, once you take out theater, you know, you don't see much people in the restaurants, you're not seeing people, you know, on the streets. There's just so many things that like theater is really that gel that kind of brought New York together. So it's so strange like coming back now and like, where's the theater? You know? So I love seeing all these different movements and how people are really like, you know, getting more politically active and doing something about what's happening now. You know. So I'm just hoping there's gonna eventually be some change and that, you know, people get the relief funding that they need, you know.

[33:32] Gordon Cox: Yeah, well, we are looking forward to seeing whatever grows out of this from you and from your clients. Thanks, ChiChi.

[33:41] ChiChi Anyanwu: Thanks for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.

[33:43] ChiChi Anyanwu: Oh, it's great. Thank you for having me.

[33:53] Gordon Cox: That was ChiChi Anyanwu, the founder of Chi Talent Management, which you can learn more about at ChiTalentManagement.com.

[34:01] Gordon Cox: If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, I'd very much appreciate it if you took the time to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. You can subscribe and find past episodes there and on all the other pod places, including Spotify and on the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears. I'll be back in two weeks with another new episode. And in the meantime, find me on Twitter at GCoxVariety. Thanks for listening and see you soon.