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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars and creators of the hottest shows on Broadway, on the West End, on tour, in Australia and on a Norwegian Cruise Line's cruise ship. I'm talking about Six, the musical that's new to Broadway but has already played all those places I just mentioned, all while its cast recording racks up millions of digital streams. Six imagines the wives of Henry VIII competing in an American Idol-style pop music competition, and it arrives in New York with an enthusiastic fan base already in place, thanks to two engagements at the Edinburgh Fringe, an Olivier-nominated West End production that's still running, and North American stops in Chicago, Boston, St. Paul and Edmonton.

You can also catch Six on a Norwegian cruise ship. All of which is to say, Six is already really popular, and it's looking poised to be just as popular here in New York. It all adds up to a big breakout success for three young theatre makers who were still in university when all this got started, composer and co-writer Toby Marlow, co-writer and co-director Lucy Moss, and co-director Jamie Armitage. All three are in the studio with me now to talk Tudor queens, pop icons, and conference rooms in Edinburgh. Hi, Lucy, Jamie and Toby. Thanks for joining me.

[1:20] Toby Marlow: Hi!

[1:23] Lucy Moss: Hi!

[1:23] Jamie Armitage: Hi!

[1:23] Gordon Cox: So, I saw the show pretty early in what I think was your second week of previews, and there were people there already having sort of a full-on, full-body experience with this sort of full concert experience with a score that they clearly knew really, really well, and knew all the words to, and they could sing along and dance along at all the right moments and knew when the beat was going to drop and all that stuff. When did that start to happen over this process as it made its way to New York?

[1:51] Lucy Moss: I mean, in America, I think in our very first preview in Chicago, there were a bunch of people who'd driven from across the country to come and see it and had listened to it all before we even had a show in America.

[2:05] Toby Marlow: And they'd heard it on Spotify or something?

[2:07] Lucy Moss: Yeah.

[2:08] Toby Marlow: Presumably?

[2:09] Lucy Moss: Yeah. I guess since the album came out, even when it was doing its first seven-week run in London's West End, once the album had come out, some people there were singing along to the words and stuff.

[2:21] Gordon Cox: Yeah, I was just going to say, how does that feel when you... I mean, some people knew some of the dance moves as well and some of the staging stuff. How does that feel as you watch people sort of react so enthusiastically?

[2:39] Jamie Armitage: It's incredible because you know that it's kind of made some impact on them, and they're so delightful and it just gives you the kind of energy you need sometimes when you're feeling a bit tired or a bit overworked by it. And then suddenly you come in and you see these incredible audience members who are just buzzed out of their mind to be there, and it's the kind of thrill that just is infectious to us.

[2:58] Toby Marlow: It's cool because it makes it feel a bit more like a pop concert, you know? You don't go along to watch Beyoncé and just sit there like... because you know the songs and you want to sing along with that, you know?

[3:09] Jamie Armitage: Right, right.

[3:10] Toby Marlow: Yeah, that's why I go to the cinema.

[3:12] Jamie Armitage: But then it hasn't always been like that. Our first previews was before the album came out and we had very sceptical audiences who had no idea what they were seeing, were kind of there because we were at their local theatre and they probably...

[3:25] Gordon Cox: This was Jamie when? When was this?

[3:26] Jamie Armitage: This would have been summer 2018 when we did our first few previews, and specifically in Norwich and then in Cambridge.

[3:32] Gordon Cox: That was before the first West End run, is that right?

[3:35] Jamie Armitage: Yes, it was, yeah. And they were... I mean, I'm kind of grateful for them because it was tough to watch because they were being so honest in their feedback, but it meant we could actually see the show for what it was and you didn't just get caught up in excitement about it, which is incredible. But just in terms of trying to analyse it at that stage, it was really useful to have audiences that you had to... we had to work really hard to win over.

[3:53] Gordon Cox: Right. And what... now that you've seen the show with people from all around the world and it's played in all sorts of places, is there something that makes Broadway audiences stand out? Do they react in ways that are different?

[4:09] Lucy Moss: There's definitely extra screaming and extra love and support. But what's really cool about our experience with the show over the last year or so is that no matter where we are, the reactions are often quite similar. It feels quite awesome to turn up in Sydney and see Australian audiences reacting in the same way to how they are in Chichester in England. Also, in Broadway, the tickets are so much more expensive. I guess they've decided they're going to have a great time before they come into the theatre because we've spent so much money on it. I'm kidding. No, I'm sure they actually enjoyed the show. I'm just playing it down.

[4:45] Gordon Cox: Toby, are you working on... are either of you working on... or I guess you too, Jamie, in terms of the staging. Are you making any changes specifically for this Broadway version that will make it look or play or sound different to how it has played elsewhere?

[5:06] Toby Marlow: Yeah. So there's been a couple of writing and orchestration changes that we've done just for fun and just because we had a bit of time before the production went up and we had all these previews to try things out. So we've done a few fun little music-y changes. But then there's a couple of staging changes of things that we've always dreamed of doing in the show, just because budget and time haven't done them before. But there are a couple of moments, which I won't spoil, but a couple of staging things and a couple of visual things, a few visual treats, which we were able to do for this production, which has been really cool.

[5:44] Lucy Moss: And I think that was our rule when we were talking about this. We always had to make sure that the changes we were making were things that were based on ideas we already had because there was an element of us needing to upscale the show slightly for this. And we could have gone wild and done a gimmick for every single number so that it just feels like you can see the budget being spent on stage. But we kind of felt that would be dishonest to what the show is. And so we were very keen on only making changes which were based on an idea, like Toby said, that we hadn't been able to do before, but we would have done if we'd been able to. And that has been our guiding principle.

[6:17] Gordon Cox: Let's talk a little bit about the backstory of the show and how it got started. So first of all, where were you all coming from? What kind of work had you been doing before Six? And did it look anything like what Six has turned into?

[6:31] Toby Marlow: I mean, like, work is a very generous term because we were at university doing stupid shows, stupid comedy sketch shows and things like that. So I don't know. I love the idea of me being like, yes, the children's production of Bobalong. I had come from a sort of dance background. I trained in musical theatre for a couple of years before going to university. So I dropped out of that and then had spent a lot of time directing plays and then working with a lot of new writing on the kind of comedy scene at our university. And that sort of similar vibe for you, Jamie, wasn't it?

[7:13] Jamie Armitage: Yeah, I'd been performing in sketch shows and writing sketch shows. And then in my second of three years at university, I started doing some directing, which I really liked and mainly started off in Shakespeare, but also did this big pantomime, which Toby was the composer on. And I guess that's similar in terms of like the comedy musical elements of it really came from there. But it's all quite varied for all of us, which is probably a good thing.

[7:38] Toby Marlow: I did a lot of performing at uni.

[7:40] Gordon Cox: Did you do much composing before that?

[7:43] Toby Marlow: So I'd done a lot of songwriting growing up and I was still doing songwriting, but not really for like, I wouldn't call it composing because it wasn't for a theatrical performance context. It was just for myself to sing, basically.

[7:55] Gordon Cox: In what context? Did you do them in cabarets or something?

[7:58] Toby Marlow: Yeah, I just had a weekly slot at a local tapas bar called La Bodega, which has since closed and has nothing to do with me. And I'd be like, I would sing like covers of Coldplay and maybe Winehouse there, but then also do a couple of originals and every like gigs, concerts and stuff. But then at uni was when I was like, Oh, what if I started like, I think I was like doing some comedy songs for sketch shows and stuff. And then I was like, maybe I could like write the score for this panto, which I then did with these guys as well. So that was quite fun because that's a good thing that we were all kind of doing together, which is really cool. And then I was doing a bit of like orchestral composing for like Shakespeare's and stuff. And then I kind of led to Six.

[8:43] Gordon Cox: And what was the initial impetus for, I get the impression that there was a, you had like a slot that you wanted to fill that your university would take to the Edinburgh festival. Is that right?

[8:56] Lucy Moss: Yeah. So the Musical Theatre Society at our university.

[9:00] Gordon Cox: This is Cambridge?

[9:01] Lucy Moss: Yeah. It takes a, well, I used to take a musical to the fringe every year. And the president of that society, Joe Baton, who is still the musical supervisor of Six, he was like, Oh, I think it'd be really cool if we take an original show, basically, because he was sick of losing all of the society's money, spending it on rights. So it was like, let's do an original one. Woohoo. And so they were kind of opening applications for that. And yeah, Toby and I have been talking about writing a musical together for a really long time. Talking about, wouldn't it be cool if we could do a musical that had loads of meaty parts for women and funny parts for our friends who are like women and non-binary people who never got to do the fun parts and stuff like that. And then also being like, wouldn't it be cool if it was like a poppy musical? Anyway, so then Toby, you applied for the slot, didn't you?

[9:48] Toby Marlow: Yeah. So I applied for the slot with, not with Six, but with like criteria of the kind of show that I wanted to do off of like conversations that we'd had and also just like what I was able to do. And that was basically being like, I want to do a show that is like all women and non-binary people or mostly women and non-binary people's stories at the forefront. And then something that had poppy music, something that played around with the form a bit. And then also something that had a famous subject matter because it was going to the Edinburgh Fringe and there's like thousands and thousands of shows there that like, you know, if you have something that people recognise in the subject matter, that instantly is like, you know, you've slightly more chance of having more than one person come to your show.

And then there were like a few ideas floating around about that. And then when I got the gig, I was kind of like thinking about those ideas and Six Wives was obviously at the forefront. It was like, you know, the most like famous group of women in like British history as like a collective. And then thinking about like the form and thinking about like poppy music. And that was kind of, I was mulling over that a bit. And then I was in a poetry class, much like this actually, well not this is a poetry class, but a table much like this, kind of like making notes about like whatever poetry we were doing. And suddenly I wasn't making any notes, I was just pretending to listen. And then I was like, oh my God, wait, what if it's a pop concert?

And then I kind of was like writing down the ideas. And then I like rang Lucy not long after that. And I was like, look, here's the pitch. And Lucy was like, oh my God, that sounds like the most incredible idea ever. Let's do it. No, I'm being sarcastic. You can't tell listeners, but I'm actually being sarcastic. But yeah, Lucy was like, maybe.

[11:27] Gordon Cox: And how did you each, it's very clear when you see the show that each queen clearly has her own sort of like palette of pop icons that they draw from, right? That is part of your conception for who these people are. How did you make those pairings and how did you think about sort of who was a good match?

[11:47] Lucy Moss: Yeah, that really came from the sort of structuring of the show and what about their stories we wanted to tell. So because it was a pop concert, also because it's the Edinburgh Fringe, it has to be an hour long. We were kind of trying to figure out how to structure the show. And we were like, okay, well, if they have a competition, then they each can sort of state their case as to why they deserve to be the leading lady of the group. And that will help us like give a reason for them to have each one song and kind of keep it concise. And so then from that point onwards, we were like, okay, well, let's start at the beginning with Katherine of Aragon. And sort of because we needed, because it's like a feminist reclaiming of the sort of historical narrative, we were like, we need to sort of meet the expectation to a certain degree of what an audience is expecting from this like, you know, independent woman musical.

So we sort of chose, rather than sort of being like, oh, wow, Katherine of Aragon's story, she's just like Beyonce. We kind of looked at the whole scope of her life, which was had a lot of tragedy in it. But we're like, we can't start with a super tragic song. So we were like, well, why don't we take this one moment of her life, which was really where she really demonstrated her strength, and like, shape that into the kind of the narrative of that song. So the first song No Way is when she makes a speech to Henry being like, sit down, shut up or whatever.

[13:06] Toby Marlow: That then led us to be like, oh, well, then she has to be the music has to feel kind of strong and powerful. Oh, that has to be like Beyoncé, like Jada, like Shakira. Similarly, with like Anne Boleyn, we were like, we were interested in how everybody in the world has an opinion about Anne Boleyn. And she's always kind of over-mythologized into this calculating temptress in this very gendered way, particularly by male historians, and also by people at the time. And so we were like, wouldn't it be funny if we made her the complete opposite of that, just as a way of like poking fun at that historical narrative and made her this like, a sort of party girl, fun-loving woman who's like, yeah, I don't mind, like whatever, like doesn't really think too much about the consequences of her actions.

And so we're like, oh, well, that needs to therefore be a kind of like light and bouncy, like bubbly song, a bit like have a sort of inspiration about Lily Allen or Kate Nash or Miley Cyrus. So they kind of came from like what part of the story we wanted to tell. Right?

[14:03] Jamie Armitage: And when did you get involved? I came on board, it would have been almost three years ago, to about now, so February 2017. And I'd actually graduated the summer before and was working at a theatre in London as a resident director. I was doing lots of assistant jobs and then heard about the show was so excited by it. And then when Toby and Lucy invited me to come on board with it, I actually had to turn down a job to do it. And I remember I really annoyed my boss because he was like, hey, I want you to assist me on this show. It's gonna be incredible. I was like, I want to get doing this like student show of my friends. And he was like, why are you doing that? Like, it's just some student show.

But I think part of it was I'd worked with these two before and just loved the way their brains worked effectively. And even though I came on board, and none of it had been written from the conversations I'd had with them and their kind of ambitions, the famous six-point plan, I could get a sense of what it was that they were going to create. And that excited me so very much that I knew I'd pass up anything to do it.

[15:08] Lucy Moss: And so Toby and Lucy, how did you work together as co-writers? Toby, were you primarily the composer? And Lucy, were you the lyricist? Or was it more like porous than that?

[15:18] Toby Marlow: It's more porous than that. I mean, Toby is definitely way more of the composer. So Toby's at the piano and he'll actually bring the musical suggestions up and form those things. But it's definitely not that I type the lyrics away and give them to Toby to set. It's very much usually what happens. I mean, it changes every time I write a song, to be honest. But usually we'll kind of have the concept and idea and discuss that. And out of that, Toby will kind of create some kind of initial draft. And then we'll kind of be like, oh, that's really exciting. Let's take this bit and move it there. And then we'll start to think about what different bits of what the story wants to be and how we want to form that onto the structure of a pop song.

And then we'll kind of brainstorm jokes together and then slot it all. I don't know. Yeah. So it's we kind of call ourselves like the writers of it because it doesn't it doesn't make sense for me to be like lyricist. And also we write the book together as well.

[16:12] Gordon Cox: Right, right. I'll have more with the creators of Six right after the break.

[16:25] Gordon Cox: And now here's more with Toby Marlow, Lucy Moss and Jamie Armitage. And please describe the initial performances in Edinburgh, what the venue was like and who performed and.

[16:33] Lucy Moss: So it was our friends. Five of them were our friends from university and one of them was Toby's little sister. And they were all just incredible, like performers, just unbelievably funny and amazing. And it was in this little conference center in a hotel, one of the sort of winding streets of Edinburgh. And it was the Edinburgh Bridge is kind of like big venues that you've heard of and then ones that you haven't really heard of. And I hadn't heard of our venue before. And yeah, it was just like and it's in just a conference space, basically. Yeah. It's like a room on a little platform. Right. Yeah. And there's like they put like seats out sort of flat levels. Everyone's got everyone apart from the front row is like craning to see.

Yeah. I have really like ugly carpet and really like non-specific art on the wall. That's not going to offend anybody. Yeah. It was that kind of space. But that's where the show was. And it was just sort of a flat bit of black deck with some curtains up at the edge in which we did Six for the first time.

[17:36] Jamie Armitage: And was there a sense then that it was a thing that people were getting excited about?

[17:43] Lucy Moss: I guess so. Yeah. I mean, the first few performances, we had like some reviewers coming in and because it was the first performances, we like basically filled out with our friends. Oh, God, if you're going to come late, please come to these shows. But then kind of like show four or five, it was it was still really full and people were like queuing to get tickets before the show. I'm kind of looking around the room being like, I don't know anyone here. This is really bizarre. And then, yeah, it just the word of mouth just kind of. And I was like, you know, a lot of us were like out on the street, like flyering, like the Queens being their costume, like performing songs from it on the mile, which is like the big Central Road in Edinburgh. But then just very quickly, we're like, oh, I guess we don't need to do that anymore because it's like selling out a few days before, which is like which was ridiculous.

[18:34] Gordon Cox: And what did you learn about the show over from that first Edinburgh production? You then did some Monday night performances on the West End as sort of a trial balloon, right? How it existed in the commercial theater? What did you learn about the show from both those Edinburgh performances? And then it's moved to the West End that has influenced the way the show's developed.

[18:54] Toby Marlow: I think writing wise, we kind of learned a lot about what worked and what didn't. And I think in our Edinburgh first, in the first production, we had half of our songs are written as if they could be lyrically contemporary pop songs. And then half of them had sort of loads of like Tudor references and jokes. And we kind of like, I think we like over the course of watching that Edinburgh and then rewriting for the West End showcases, sort of honed into like what it was that was working kind of tried to like filter that into the rest of the writing. But yeah, I don't know. We also learned that it's like it worked outside of like a fringe atmosphere. Because like at the Edinburgh Fringe, like you're going to watch lots of shows of like, you know, beers in your hand, you're drinking from noon, it's probably 10:30 at night when they're watching your show.

Yeah, I think we're on at like 5:55. But people don't let you go to the fringes. There's lots of comedy, you're that you're on your fringe audience, maybe you're gonna be rowdy, you're gonna scream with people asking to scream. Whereas like, the middle of London is like a slightly different vibe. And I think beforehand, we were very much like, like, I remember the Queens as well, we had in London, because they hadn't been in the French production. They were like, you know, when we end ex-wives open number and then go, London, how you doing tonight? Like, what if they're just like, yeah, I remember, I remember Christina Modesto, who was the Anne Boleyn, genuinely being like, okay, so like, but what's the backup plan for if they don't, if they don't say anything, because we know what London audience is gonna be like, we were there being like, I think they're gonna they're gonna cheer.

I think they are like having watched the way it works in Edinburgh. And they were like, No, no, but let's just think of a plan. And we were like, okay, and I remember the first night they did the show, they finished ex-wives, bam. And the whole audience, like, screamed. And you saw every single, like every single one of them, their eyes just like, why did I know that? Oh, my goodness, we hadn't because they've been just like doing it in this room too. They had no idea it was any good. And then, and then it was so fun, because you could what you watch every single one of them be like, for a split second, but overwhelmed by it. And then all of them decide to be like, right, we're gonna do this.

And it was so it was like such a great moment. That's always the best moment in any production that we do is like opening night or first preview ever of the end of ex-wives and just seeing the Queen's face just be like, like the whole room of people just like screaming at their faces. You know, it's great.

[21:14] Lucy Moss: I also think another thing that we learned was that the actual like essence of the show, and the thing about it that works is the six amazing performers that these six people that you buy into and then being like at the forefront and that and this kind of those performances and the sort of writing being at the forefront. And it was really awesome to see that even in the West End, when it was, you know, a very, it wasn't a fully kind of realized production, it was sort of like a suggestion of what the kind of full production would be. But it wasn't, it wasn't like overly glitzy and glamorous. It really reinforced for us that that was what made it really that that's what made the show successful.

And I think that was something that when we went to do the production in Norwich, and what the production is now, the first time we did this version of the show. And that was something that was quite hard, because we were suddenly allowed to do that full staging and costume and it was sort of like, for a second, the kind of pop concert conceit slightly overwhelmed those kind of the central parts of it. And so it was really helpful when we saw that to kind of think back to what had been successful in Edinburgh and in the West End, and kind of refine it and put the performers and the story at the forefront again.

[22:20] Jamie Armitage: Because I think that was the thing that we didn't realize we got so much for free when we were students, which is when Six, you know, 18 to 21 year olds walk out on stage wearing dresses from and they go with the Six Wives of Henry VIII, and we're a superstar girl band, the audience go, that's so funny, you're not. And then, but then they buy into that a lot. But I think what we felt when we had all the presentational elements, the costume, the wigs, the lights, and these performers who look like they could feasibly be pop stars, and we go with the Six Wives of Henry VIII, we're a superstar girl band, and the audience went, Yes, you are that. And it took a while before they realized that it was a show that allows you to laugh at it for how seriously it commits to that thing.

And it was a period of readjustment during those previews from like, presentational side, but also this one writing change, which Lucy and Toby made, which just kind of allowed the audience in to laugh at it. And so it wasn't something that took half an hour to figure out they could realize in the first five minutes that you were allowed to laugh at the show.

[23:18] Lucy Moss: What was that change?

[23:19] Jamie Armitage: That change was, okay, so I'll tell you the line here, because it won't make sense for the UK, okay, so it's, in ex-wives, they've been singing a couple of verses and choruses, and there's a little break in it. And then in a very sultry way, Catherine of Aragon says, Remember us from PBS, which I've heard is some kind of documentary channel.

[23:41] Toby Marlow: Yeah, it's like, yeah, I was about to say public television, but that doesn't mean anything to you.

[23:45] Lucy Moss: But what is the line in the UK?

[23:47] Toby Marlow: In the UK it's, Remember us from your GCSEs, which are the exams you take when you're 16.

[23:51] Jamie Armitage: Okay.

[23:52] Lucy Moss: And everyone learned about the Tudors at school. So it's a similar idea of taking something a bit like lame and nerdy and dorky and making it sound as if it's really sexy. And that's sort of the whole conceit of the show, like slammed together in one line.

[24:04] Gordon Cox: Right. How much of that did you have to do, the sort of switching references for the US?

[24:11] Toby Marlow: That's like the only real reference that we switched. We do things like changing the word fit to hot and like changing mates to friends or like bro or whatever. But it's really, and then we do that because the accents that they use in the US show are their own. So it's not about trying to make it sound British.

[24:28] Lucy Moss: Did you ever think about using British accents?

[24:33] Toby Marlow: Yeah, we thought about it for about a couple of minutes. And then we're like, wait, they're the six words of Henry VIII as a pop group. Why on earth should it be historically accurate? And it wouldn't even be accurate anyway. The whole idea of the show, I think the whole conceit of it is that while it's about the six wives and their story, really what it is is about six women or non-binary people on stage saying, this is who I am today and claiming their space and claiming their stories. And it's so important for us that they reflect the audiences that they're talking to. So in the UK, they have lots of different regional accents. And so, for example, like Anna of Cleves in our London production is from Birmingham.

And that accent is very distinctive to our original Catherine Parr was from Manchester. And, you know, Anna of Cleves would have technically had a German accent or whatever. And so it already kind of had that within it. But I think a lot of people are often surprised to hear that they don't have a British accent. And then they go like, the knee-jerk reaction is like, wait, what? But what? They should. And then you think about it, you're like, okay. And I think audiences probably come and see it and they go, wait, hang on a second. They're not singing in a British. And then they forget about it by the end of the sentence because they're like, woo, it's a girl there.

[25:46] Jamie Armitage: Yeah. I also like, I feel like Catherine of Aragon having an American accent as opposed to a British accent is like far less distracting than like six American actors doing like Dick Van Dyke accents.

[26:01] Toby Marlow: Which is like, of course, our tons of performance will be wonderful British accents. But I think we find that a lot more distressing as you probably find like hearing British people doing American accents very distracting as well. And how

[26:12] Jamie Armitage: Now that you've worked with a number of different actresses for each of these roles, how do you cast them? What is it you look for for each queen? It's so difficult to describe. I think we always talk about it as like this kind of essence or charm. And it's something which you know when you see it because there's like that charisma, really. Yeah. And it's that thing which is like, you know, they've got to be able to sing the notes, they've got to be able to dance, which is all very difficult and requires a level of technical skill. But we see lots of people who can do that. But then there's just this extra spark that you see when somebody walks into the room. And then the next stage of that is what I really love in rehearsals, is when we try and like, unlock what would be there in a pop star.

And that's what we always talk about during the first week is like, if you were a pop star, what would you be? And they're like, oh, you want me to be like Beyoncé? I was like, no, no, no. I want you to be a pop star similar to Beyoncé, but it's you. And this is forged from your personality, your quirks, your talents. And it's, I think it's a difficult process for a lot of performers because they're so used to just sort of putting on a mask effectively. And feeling like the track and being like, what's the version? And we're like, there isn't the version because it's you doing it. It has to be you as an authentic human being because of the concept, because it's a pop concept. They interact with the audience and talk to them and are supposed to be themselves in a way that a normal musical or a narrative musical, that's kind of like the fourth wall.

And then as you say, like with this mask. So yeah, it's really, we really try and shape the performer and the character. It was sort of like 50% is like the character and 50% is the actual performer. So yeah, it also means that we can just cast people who are like interesting and sparky and feel like unique in the room, as opposed to sort of being like, okay, we need someone who fits this bill and sounds like this exactly. And that's like this and stuff like that. And I love it because it means we've done a number of productions now, but if you were to see them side by side, they're all really different because we've made so many adjustments based on the cast performing them rather than us setting it with our first cast and then just replicating that like a cookie cutter across every single production since. And that makes our jobs a lot more fun because it's really varied, but also it feels truer to what we're trying to achieve with the show.

[28:12] Lucy Moss: And in terms of the sort of pop concert structure of it, you know, cause it's like structured like a pop concert with a story that kind of sneaks up on you if you're not expecting it. What kind of challenges did that present? Jamie, you alluded to this a little bit in terms of like, or maybe it was you Lucy in terms of kind of, oh, suddenly it went too far into the like pop concert, right? Like the pop sort of mechanisms kind of overwhelmed it or what, how did you find that balance? I guess.

[28:39] Jamie Armitage: I think it's just something that we constantly have to negotiate. And I think we spend a whole time being like, it's a pop concert, it's a pop concert, it's a pop concert. And then you get to the point where you're like, but actually it's a musical and you're telling us a story kind of thing. And I think, I think it's just something that we have to really work with, with our performers. Like for example, Jane Seymour, who sings the kind of ballad, the third song, well, not the third, the third queen. The way she delivers it is we sort of do like a scene version in rehearsals where we kind of, it's like her deathbed song. It's a conversation with Henry. And then we have to find a way for that to be not, not as literal as that, but also not as general as like, I'm at a concert, I'm just singing to, as we sort of have this sort of Henry figure that we imagine.

Guys, there's a scene in Gilmore Girls where Lorelai Gilmore is doing karaoke and then the love of her life like walks in and she's singing, I will always love you. And then suddenly she like sees him and kind of like sings it to him, but is also still singing it to the audience. And that's a, that's a strong reference for me personally. I don't know if anybody else does.

[29:40] Lucy Moss: It is exactly for me. I've never seen it, but I just like, I get the writing. I mean, there's something we talked about so much during the design process in regard to what the set is. The fact that like pop concerts at the moment are deconstructing themselves and that a lot of like the major artists are doing riffs on what a pop concert is. So if you were trying to do something like that, you know, like what Kanye West does, what Beyoncé does, where they're doing like strange takes on it, it wouldn't quite make sense to an audience because the thing we've got to do is like set that it is a pop concert to most people, to audiences who are more used to seeing theatre perhaps. And so we're trying to find like, what's the distilled version of a pop concert, but then you have to start putting some stuff away because if we're being really true to it, there'll be a lot of video content, there'd be cameras, there'd be screens, there'd be like huge barriers between the first row of the audience and the front row and the where the performers are.

And that was some of the stuff we're like, actually, we don't want that side of the pop concert because we need to pull away those barriers. We can't have like rows of speakers on stage, which act like a sort of wall between the performers and the audience. And so there's some of that stuff, which we went, actually, that's the unhelpful side. And so what we ended up with is hopefully like a nice blend between something true to a pop concert, but also to theatre too.

[30:48] Toby Marlow: And Six has been sort of, by any measure, massively successful, even if it weren't, you know, the first real professional show that you guys had worked on together, right? Like, what's your sense of, do you have a sense of how sort of the show has evolved and how you have worked on it and how it's grown and developed? Do you have a sense yet of what kind of perspective that gives you on kind of your work or sort of how it might fit into the industry overall, looking forward?

[31:17] Lucy Moss: No. It's funny, because like, it's been so quick, as we keep being told. And it's, and it, the thing is, well, it's true, it's super quick. But I say that because like, we have like no other experience to compare it to. Because we literally, and like, it's not like any of us like spent time after uni, like, struggling to get a musical on. And now we've like been given, we just like walked out of uni, literally holding our degrees. And then we're like, oh, well, I guess we're doing the show now. Do you know what I mean? And like, and it's just been like, rapidly growing kind of since then. And because like, you know, as the other writer, you're also the director. And like, we've all been there from the beginning.

It's like, there hasn't really been a time of like, stepping away from it. Because like, you've been in rehearsals constantly. We've all been like traveling around the world constantly in the UK to be doing it. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's, it's, it's not like we've had like a year out, we've come back and be like, oh, wow, it's so big. It's like, and I feel like what's funny, what's funny about it is that like, this, Broadway is kind of like, you know, it's like the final step of like, the journey to like, I called Broadway the Rome of musical theatre. Like, still to this day, don't actually know why I did that. Because like, Broadway is like, you know, it's like, like the biggest best place you can like, open a musical. And so now after this is like, we might finally be the time of kind of like stopping opening six for a bit. And being like, oh, like, like how far we've come.

[32:47] Jamie Armitage: Yeah, I think that's so true. Because I think, as you say, it was like, we were at the Edinburgh Fringe as students in August, and then we came back and we're doing in October. And then the showcases were, you know, I think Kenny Wax, one of our producers came and saw the show on a Friday, and by the Monday, we were in his office, and he was being like, we're going to do this watch. Okay, and we just like consistently that continued working on it. And, and then when he was like, I want to do these four Monday night showcases of it in the West End was like, the biggest deal and the most exciting and unbelievable opportunity we could ever imagine. And then it kind of feels like almost every day since then something like that kind of happens. Whether it's like someone that's come to the show or some other plan they're going to do with it, or like some of like cool deal that's gonna happen with the show. It's like, it's like, it's, it's pretty. Yeah.

[33:35] Toby Marlow: So we've got used to the exponential growth to a certain degree. Like what we've got used to is it is it getting more and more wild? Do you know what it's going to be? It's going to be when we try to do our next show. And no one's going to, whatever it ends up being, no one's going to want to produce it. It's going to take years to develop, it's going to take years to put together. And then it's going to open and it's going to be like, oh, it's fine. And then it'll close. And then we'll be like, oh, wow. Yeah. We, then when we come back to six, we're like, oh goodness, can we talk about six now? We're like, we've lost interest.

[34:05] Jamie Armitage: There's been some nice ones, which have been smaller scale. Cause I guess, yeah, the grand things we can't really get our heads around, but there's sort of small adjustments, which were things we didn't really like come in. I mean, we've got to change the way this is done, but like some of the working practice about our approach to auditions, which just comes from us being enthusiastic students, which is like, we applaud at the end, we make sure people find out whether they're being considered further or not. And these things are like the most obvious stuff in the world. And then you come out and realize that's not standard practice. And you're like, how has this been happening? How has no one gone?

This is a really stupid, cruel way of working. And that's been nice over the last few years of seeing that, um, the, some of the people we've been working to have been adjusting to that and they've been embracing that so strongly. And I think it's very localized, but it's like one of the small positive changes.

[34:47] Toby Marlow: Honestly, a massive pat on the back for us. Well done for being so thoughtful. And so what's next for you guys? Do you even know? Do you like, can you talk about it? Do you have you even had time to really think much about?

[35:03] Lucy Moss: I'm going on a lad's holiday to Berlin.

[35:17] Jamie Armitage: Oh yeah. Oh my God. You're directing something. Well, I'm going to say Lucy and I are doing something which is we both chose the projects independently, but are so scarily similar and indicative of what we've been working on where I'm doing a student version of Sweeney Todd and Lucy is doing, I'm doing a version of Guys and Dolls, which is like, it's not gender flipped, but it's like Jen, it's like drag basically. And my old, um, drama school, um, not, not like a production, just doing a two week like workshop messing around. I think we both were like, we need to have some fun with something that isn't a new pop concert musical. I'm directing production of Cats. I've got a drama school as well. It's a kind of concept production where the cast is actually going to be majority cats.

[36:02] Toby Marlow: But do you have a sense yet of what kind of work you want to do going forward?

[36:07] Lucy Moss: Yeah. I mean, like we want to write more musicals. We also want to write like, like pop songs as well. I felt like, I felt like, you know, all this, any stuff that we do in the future, it's going to be like rooted in like something that we care about. I mean, as opposed to like a story that we want to tell, it's going to come from like a conversation about something that we care about and then writing a show to like explore that or expose that. I think, I think we're both quite didactic with what we want out of theatre. I think it's like, if I come away from a show being like, there was no like message or point. I'm like, but why? Like, why are you doing this? Even though I know that it's actually like, you know, oh, it's great.

I'm really like, tell me something that I need to change about myself or don't bother. And we've had a bit of a break from writing, like, like doing the whole Broadway thing. But like, we're gonna, you know, hopefully, I mean, like, we're always just like the happiest people ever when we're doing new writing. And when we're like working on stuff, because like, you know, it's like, what we do for a job now, but we actually spend like so little time actually doing it. We spend most of our time telling people that we're writers. But like, having written like nine songs, you know, and so like, it's, it's, it's, it's, and we're always, it's, I'm just looking forward to doing lots of like, writing and it might all be terrible.

And we'll probably never have a, you know, successful show ever again. But it's like really fun to do. And it's like, why it's like, it's like what, like the basis of all our friendships with each other is, is like, like putting shows together. And so I'm looking forward to like doing that again in the future. It's what we would be doing if we weren't being paid to do it. That's what's always so fun about Six is that I'm like, if even if I'm like having a like tired day or whatever, I like come in, I'm like, and nobody tell the producers this, but I would do it for free.

[38:00] Lucy Moss: Your secret's safe.

[38:03] Toby Marlow: Yeah, I mean, like, it's, it's a really cool to be like, oh, let's do some writing for fun. And then it's like, oh, wait, this is our job. But also like, yeah, it's awesome. Oh, so I want to get a boyfriend as well. I haven't done that yet. So if anyone knows, you heard it here. Yeah. My number is plus four.

[38:20] Lucy Moss: You can just DM me as well.

[38:23] Toby Marlow: At the Toby Marlow Instagram.

[38:26] Gordon Cox: Well, I cannot wait to see what's next either for your love life, Toby, or on stage. We're all invited to the wedding.

[38:34] Toby Marlow: To myself. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. All three of you. Thanks for talking.

[38:37] Lucy Moss: Thank you so much.

[38:45] Gordon Cox: That was Toby Marlow, Lucy Moss and Jamie Armitage, the creators and directors of Six, now playing at the Brooks Atkinson Theatre. If you like what you're hearing on this and other episodes of Stagecraft, you can rate and review us on Apple Podcasts, and you can subscribe and find past episodes there on Spotify, on the Broadway Podcast Network and on all the other pod places. And if you've got feedback, find me on Twitter at G Cox Variety. I'll be back next week with another new episode. Until then, see you at the theatre.