This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Send phone, stage manager. We need you on stage tonight. Go to dressing room one of the costumes or black. Super swing. If you can understand me speaking, as well as anyone can if you'll watch. Thank you for providing the free. Super swing. Same and the swing. Hey. Sounds are coming from all around us. Super swing. Same and the swing and the welcome to Realto. Follow me. The show's about to start. Keep your headphones on for the most immersive experience. Super Swings.

[0:56] Katy Pfaffl: Hi, I'm your host, Katy Pfaffl.

[0:58] Joshua Kobak: And I'm your co-host, Joshua Kobak. We're grateful that you're here with us to learn more about what makes a swing super.

[1:05] Katy Pfaffl: So we are very happy to be here with you. Would you please tell us your name?

[1:11] Jeremy Kushnier: Yes. Jeremy, we've known you for a long time, both Josh and I.

[1:16] Joshua Kobak: Collectively, and it's longer, I think.

[1:18] Jeremy Kushnier: I think so. Yeah, it was like when I first came to the city we met.

[1:20] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah.

[1:22] Jeremy Kushnier: I was doing Footloose, I think at that point.

[1:26] Joshua Kobak: Wow.

[1:26] Jeremy Kushnier: That was terrible.

[1:28] Joshua Kobak: Well, it wasn't even really a venue.

[1:29] Jeremy Kushnier: No, it was a few minutes. It was like a makeshift. Somebody threw a PA in the corner.

[1:33] Joshua Kobak: Exactly. But what I love is that here we are in so many different phases of our lives. We are so excited to have you and your perspective here as a part of Super Swings because we haven't really had someone who has been a swing and also been a lead and can kind of tell the journey of that.

[1:51] Katy Pfaffl: Tell us what you have swung yourself.

[1:53] Jeremy Kushnier: My first swinging job was Rent in Toronto. Um, but yeah, I actually the reason I got a swing job was because I booked Footloose, but I'd done the workshop, and it was either Jeffrey or Kevin was at the workshop and they were like, "You should come and audition for Rent." And I was like, "You should tell your casting director in Toronto that." I want to. Yeah. That's how I ended up getting Mark, Roger, Gordon swing job.

[2:24] Joshua Kobak: Oh, so you did did you do the full six?

[2:27] Jeremy Kushnier: Mark, Roger, Steve, Paul, Mr. J. I did basically everybody that was like appropriate. And then my very last understudy rehearsal, I went on for all the parts that I wasn't appropriate for. So yeah, so that was my first swing gig, and then it was a while till my next one. Um, I didn't swing Superstar, but I covered like four different roles at the same time. And then um, the last time I swung was Merrily down the street here, which was really cool. It wasn't really my job. I came in because um, the guy who had the job hurt his shoulder.

[3:02] Joshua Kobak: Uh-huh.

[3:02] Jeremy Kushnier: A friend of mine, um, Vish, yeah, who's like one of my favorite. I know we talk about you all the time. We never talk about it.

[3:10] Joshua Kobak: That's a good one.

[3:11] Jeremy Kushnier: No, we do. He loves you guys. Um, so he was like they needed a so they were in their first day of tech and they were like, "We need like a guy who can do this." And we should like Jeremy. So they called at nine that night and were like, "You want to come in tomorrow and audition position?" I was like, sure. Sweet.

[3:31] Joshua Kobak: So then it's what I'm saying. So who were you swinging in the shop?

[3:33] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, I covered Reg as the producer, and then I swung Vish. I mean, I was supposed to be swinging everybody, but they were like, "We know you're not gonna be able to wear in six or seven roles." Right. This often I was there for six weeks.

[3:45] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[3:46] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh yeah. They were like, good luck.

[3:47] Joshua Kobak: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[3:48] Jeremy Kushnier: Plus like just at this point in my age, the swinging really takes years off my life.

[3:55] Katy Pfaffl: Uh-huh. Well, talk about that. Like so compared to like doing a role, coming back in as a swing, what you know.

[4:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, I think everybody should do it. Yeah. Everybody that's in theater, everybody that wants to do this should have to do it. I definitely think not everybody is built for it. Right. I think some people are really, really good at it. Um, as I've gotten older, like I said, like the just the ajuda of like waking up every morning and not knowing what you're doing that day, yeah, is really hard. Once you know it and once you're in it, it actually is kind of fun. Like when I was doing Superstar in La Jolla, I was playing Pilate, but I was covering Jesus and Judas.

[4:30] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[4:31] Jeremy Kushnier: And there's a couple small roles. Yeah, yes. And they at that point they were starting to rotate into this like seven a week so they weren't doing all eight. Okay. But they were still had important people coming to the show, so they couldn't schedule it. So I would get a call at five that night, like who I was playing.

[4:47] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[4:48] Jeremy Kushnier: At least with that, it was only three different people. But that idea that like you don't know who you're gonna what you're gonna be doing, if you don't know it all really well, right? Um, it's scary.

[4:57] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[4:58] Jeremy Kushnier: And the other thing is like keeping it in there too. Like, how do you remote keep it in your brain? Like once you're learning it, you're learning it. Great, great, it's in there. And then you start to learn the next one, you're like, "Wow, how far away do I want to get from the last one that I learned?" Because now it's not a good one. Like, you know, just yeah, no, it's not. It's really hard.

[5:17] Katy Pfaffl: It's really hard.

[5:19] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, and it's also, you know, for people that do this, even the nicest, most sweet person in the world, you have a heightened ego. You just do. You have to like survive in this, right?

[5:31] Katy Pfaffl: You mean as an entertainer?

[5:32] Jeremy Kushnier: As an entertainer. Yeah. So that comes into play, man. Like how you're swinging when you're an understudy. Yeah. It's like you don't you will always feel like you're not part of like the A team. You always feel like you're not part of like you're not one of the guys. You know, like you've been through, you know, openings of shows and and like when you especially when you're swinging or understudying in a brand new show, it's like all that cool stuff, yeah, like the pictures and the performances and the like recording an album. It's all like potentially heartbreaking.

[6:09] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, and I've had both of those experiences in a new show.

[6:13] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. About being the forgotten one who was even on the cast recording, but my name isn't even and then being a part of a different show where fully embraced on the cast recording, name I still get residuals from it.

[6:28] Katy Pfaffl: That's really nice.

[6:29] Jeremy Kushnier: It has to do with the producers, or it has to do with the producers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, it also has to do with when you have really nice, really strong people at the top of the food chain. Um, i.e. your leads, yeah. They look out if they can look out for those people too.

[6:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, and when they do and and that's the other reason why I think that like everybody should have to do it. So that when you're in that boat, even if you don't have any power, just be nice.

[6:54] Joshua Kobak: Right.

[6:55] Jeremy Kushnier: Kind, right, right, right, right. Because there are microaggressions, even how swings get to make you feel B team or less.

[7:03] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[7:03] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, yeah, well I've definitely felt those too.

[7:05] Joshua Kobak: Yeah.

[7:05] Jeremy Kushnier: Like you're not doing it the right way, you're not doing it the way that the guy does it.

[7:09] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[7:10] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. We had Evan Smith on. Evan is also one of my students, and he was our first episode, and I love Evan, and I got to see him go on as Frank.

[7:19] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, cool.

[7:20] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, he was incredible. But you know, he was kind of telling us like largely the reason that he felt really happy in that show is because of the three leads and how they treated him and how they treated everybody, and how he felt like because they were setting that example, everybody had to follow that example, and that really, really changed the climate of the whole entire show, and I think that's I know it's not a secret how nice Johnny and Dan and Lindsay are.

[7:48] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[7:49] Jeremy Kushnier: I know people talk about it all the time, but it's really true. I always felt so embraced, and I always felt like they just took care of everybody emotionally, and also they went to bat for that whole team so many times on so many levels that you always felt like, oh, this is the way that I would hope that people would act that have power.

[8:12] Katy Pfaffl: Right, yeah, right, right.

[8:14] Jeremy Kushnier: You know what I mean?

[8:14] Katy Pfaffl: Well, and it's the recognition, I think when you are in that position that you can wield your power in a few different ways, right? And that if you wield your power for the betterment of everyone else, the entire environment gets better. Because I'm sure you've been in shows where it's a really positive experience, and you've been in shows where it's a really negative experience, and that climate, you know, it just takes a little poison to go into that whole stream.

[8:38] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, and it runs downstream.

[8:39] Katy Pfaffl: Oh yeah.

[8:40] Jeremy Kushnier: It really does.

[8:41] Katy Pfaffl: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I love that you've done both. So you care you've also been the leads and carried shows, and that's a really yay, wonderful thing. How did it feel being a lead and having swings go on with you?

[8:55] Jeremy Kushnier: Great. I mean the fact that I was that I got to do it early enough in my career and then also literally be a swing right before I was about to go do the biggest thing of my life. Um, that was really I honestly probably the best thing that the universe could have done to me for me to start you that way, just to like literally go like okay. This is what it's like, don't forget. Like, yeah, this is what and it because Rent was such a like a singularly beautiful, wonderful experience, but swinging anything has its um dirtiness. And back like in the early days, they really did their best to make sure that like they did the peasants' feast, like they would come in and talk about John, like the family would come in. It's like even with all of that stuff, there's still that there's still like this part of being a swing that feels like you're not part of it.

[9:42] Katy Pfaffl: You're not part of it.

[9:55] Jeremy Kushnier: You're not part of it. So when I got to Footloose, hopefully I was not that going to be that guy that I was like, I know what that feels like, and we have to make sure that we do our best, and bring like lift people up and at the least celebrate them when they go on, especially the first few like you get so many free, you know, get out of jail free card, you know, and it's not in a rule book. You know what I mean? So I've seen so many shows where it's like, oh yeah, the swings aren't even called for the first two weeks of rehearsal. Uh, it's the stupidest thing in the entire world.

[10:27] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[10:29] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, and especially in this climate, I can't even tell you how many times I have swings and shows as my students who are like I just got thrown on and I was never rehearsed for this role because they didn't call me to rehearsal.

[10:43] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[10:43] Jeremy Kushnier: Like they know that this is a climate where everybody's calling out and they need coverage. I'm hired and yet they still don't want to spend the money to have me in rehearsal, and then they expect me to go on when I have nothing. And that is just insane. Like split tracks become a thing. Like that's not that shouldn't be like a realistic thing.

[11:02] Katy Pfaffl: Not a regular thing.

[11:03] Jeremy Kushnier: It should be a thing they count on.

[11:05] Katy Pfaffl: No, and it also should be monetized. Sorry.

[11:07] Jeremy Kushnier: We were talking about that.

[11:08] Katy Pfaffl: We were, yeah.

[11:09] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It should be monetized because that's an extra. That's massive extra.

[11:14] Katy Pfaffl: Yep.

[11:14] Jeremy Kushnier: Why doesn't that happen? When you're going in for like yeah.

[11:17] Katy Pfaffl: Or for specific.

[11:18] Jeremy Kushnier: Especially for a split track. Like if you're taking if you're like in the moment, like generating a new track just for tonight.

[11:24] Katy Pfaffl: Yep.

[11:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[11:29] Katy Pfaffl: So yeah, well, so how old were you when you got Footloose?

[11:33] Jeremy Kushnier: Twenty. Well, I did the workshop first, so it's like twenty-two, twenty-three was when around when we opened it.

[11:39] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[11:39] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. That's amazing. How did it feel to step into those shoes?

[11:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Honestly, I had a really good mentor. Uh he's since passed. Uh he uh Canadian guy named Frank Rufo.

[11:51] Katy Pfaffl: I remember going down the flight of stairs to smoke a cigarette, but oh man.

[11:56] Jeremy Kushnier: I remember you smoking back then.

[11:58] Katy Pfaffl: I do too.

[12:00] Jeremy Kushnier: So dumb. Don't do it, kids.

[12:02] Katy Pfaffl: Don't do it, kids.

[12:03] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, I had a cell phone, it was like the f one of the first cell phones I had. And I called my buddy and I said, "I don't think I can do this. Like, I don't know how to lead a brand new show like this." He's like, "You just need to do your job. You just need to show up and do your job and you'll be fine." And I knew that then leading was going to be about just expect people to like act the way you expect everybody to act.

[12:29] Katy Pfaffl: And that will be treated.

[12:31] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, exactly. Right.

[12:32] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, exactly. It's not that deep.

[12:38] Jeremy Kushnier: No.

[12:45] Jeremy Kushnier: I was a repeater for a long time before I started doing it really professionally. And I was lucky enough to work with like really great guides. We talk about back in Winnipeg. Uh, yeah, back in Winnipeg and then in Toronto. But yeah, Winnipeg specifically, I guess.

[13:05] Katy Pfaffl: Is that where you grew up? Tell us a little bit about that.

[13:07] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, I did. I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba. And there's a really good theater scene. And that's really where I sort of like broke my teeth. But I could work with so many great people in leadership positions, both on stage and off stage. And I just always thought, like, oh, if I ever get the chance to do something, like I want to do it right. I want to do it authentically, and I also want to do it like with purpose, um, in a way that is both fun and also helps the piece. You know, I think that that was also sort of like part of like how I wanted to like guide. I wanted to like guide with purpose, guide purposefully with intention.

[13:47] Katy Pfaffl: That's one of the reasons we've been so excited to talk to you in particular, is just because it's really awesome to have a career where you can do this and be leads and lead shows and then come back and swing and not be have your ego be so big that you don't want to do that.

[14:02] Jeremy Kushnier: No, which I is kudos to the thing.

[14:05] Jeremy Kushnier: It also can have to do it it also has to do with uh checkbooks, you know what I mean?

[14:08] Katy Pfaffl: I know, yeah.

[14:09] Jeremy Kushnier: You know, everybody's gotta work. Uh and but there's people who won't do that, Jeremy, and I think that's like that's also kudos to you as a human thing. You know like I mean th there's there's a certain amount of there is a certain amount of ego that you do eat.

[14:21] Jeremy Kushnier: And I I am not devoid. Anyone anybody that know really knows me knows that I'm not devoid of ego. There's plenty to go Oh yeah there's plenty of things all of us. You know we all we all every single one of us yeah when we get to any of us when you get to a pro level it's always good to have to be humbled a little bit and to return back to like oh yeah this is still hard and there's a learning experience in this. And I think that comes from doing different leads and stuff too you know things that really challenge you. But I think it's just a reminder of why we got into it in the first place. We used to love that challenge.

[14:52] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[14:53] Jeremy Kushnier: You know and we forget that that's the challenge that actually keeps us young, alive, curious.

[14:59] Katy Pfaffl: That's true.

[15:00] Jeremy Kushnier: And also like just the fact that like you know when swing, not swing, lead, like whatever it is, like when you like walk into Midtown and that terrible it is to like try to fight to get to your job. But then like you walk through that stage and you're like I'm still getting to like do this is something that like so few people get to do and so many people wish that they could.

[15:23] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[15:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Um and we take it for granted a lot and I I definitely have taken it for granted. Um and going back into a show like Marily as a swing it it filled me up so much in so many weird ways because I as as a swing you've got to watch the show a lot and it was such a beautiful piece.

[15:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[15:45] Jeremy Kushnier: And everybody in it was so wonderful, top to bottom.

[15:45] Katy Pfaffl: Top to bottom.

[15:49] Jeremy Kushnier: And so I was like, I'm not only blessed that I like that the universe is like saving me with a job right now. But it's like one, it's like the best show on Broadway. And also I get to watch it.

[16:02] Katy Pfaffl: Right, right.

[16:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Like masterclass in some ways too. I just felt so lucky.

[16:06] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[16:07] Jeremy Kushnier: And you could see it from all the different things. Anyway I wanted to go wherever you wanted to go, right?

[16:10] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[16:11] Jeremy Kushnier: It is like a very, very cool. We've talked about that for you. Like how many different things you've been able to experience from so many different sides.

[16:18] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[16:19] Jeremy Kushnier: You know, um, I'm doing little shop, it's great. It's really cool. Milo Matter Seymour's coming in to see more. Um Liz Gillies coming in as Audrey. But Milo is uh 23 years old, so it's like, oh, you're exactly the age I was when I made my Broadway baby. I'm really excited. I had no idea how this part was.

[16:37] Katy Pfaffl: But it's hard.

[16:42] Jeremy Kushnier: Really hard.

[16:43] Katy Pfaffl: Oh yeah.

[16:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Especially for like an aged for us like for us now, like elders. I'm just like, wow, that's those are parts that I didn't know hurt. My partner Robin was like, well, maybe you know, we should get it to do some more yoga. Maybe it's time for you to not be right.

[17:02] Katy Pfaffl: You seem to leave and not be right for a time.

[17:05] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, it's funny because we're invincible when we're a lot younger, you know. Like you can do anything and your body just does anything, and then all of a sudden you're like, oh wow, yeah, that will break.

[17:14] Katy Pfaffl: That hurts.

[17:15] Jeremy Kushnier: That hurts. Just standing here hurts.

[17:17] Katy Pfaffl: Flex your buttons.

[17:18] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. If it hurts, like seriously, your biggest when right now. I was like, everybody flex, we're flexing buttons right now. We're all flexing butts. The beginning of Act Two and Rent, like after I had a motorcycle accident in 2004, so that was after we'd done it together. But um, I had a an injury in my lower back. And I go back to the doctor and be like, yeah, I don't know if I'm ready because I went out on stage and it just we have to stand there and it hurt really bad.

[17:44] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, it was the PT.

[17:45] Jeremy Kushnier: And the PT was just like, just flex your butt when you're standing there. And I so I tried it the next show, and I was like, oh my god, that works so good. It takes all the pressure off of your lower back. So tip, there you go, pro tip, flex your butt.

[17:57] Katy Pfaffl: Right, right, right.

[17:57] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, and just when in doubt. Do you know what I mean? Like it's just a good answer for most things in life.

[18:02] Katy Pfaffl: It's just gonna change the whole mood.

[18:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Yep. So do you know do you have a uh length of this run or is it sort of open-ended for it?

[18:10] Katy Pfaffl: Uh C B D.

[18:12] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I I definitely until June.

[18:16] Katy Pfaffl: Awesome, nice.

[18:17] Jeremy Kushnier: Um yeah, and then per perhaps longer.

[18:18] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah.

[18:19] Jeremy Kushnier: I love it there. It's like I have you guys seen this production yet.

[18:22] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[18:23] Jeremy Kushnier: It's so well staged, it's so well directed. I think it's beautiful. And the cast is great, and it's such a like go going back to like kindness and grace. It is one of the most graceful theaters that I've been in in a really long time.

[18:36] Katy Pfaffl: And it's tiny, right?

[18:37] Jeremy Kushnier: I mean, it's tiny things on top of each other.

[18:39] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[18:39] Jeremy Kushnier: So there's a male change room, and there's a female change room.

[18:42] Katy Pfaffl: Oh wow.

[18:43] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, and it is in the basement. Like there's like three flights or two flights of spiral staircases where you get it's exactly.

[18:50] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, sorry.

[18:54] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, and there's the there's a couple of times going up and down them. But um, yeah, and it's so great. It's it just it's like that show just like wants to be in a small off-Broadway space. Also, puppeteers are amazing, I should say. Like, there's not enough puppets on Broadway.

[19:10] Katy Pfaffl: Um puppets, yeah.

[19:11] Jeremy Kushnier: I'm a huge fan of puppetry on Broadway. Oh my god, it's amazing. Good. And these we have some of the best puppeteers in the country, like working on this show. They're magicians.

[19:23] Katy Pfaffl: It's awesome.

[19:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Um yeah, and really wonderful swings. And you've got to swing all kinds of stuff. There's there's something called uh a snapper in the show, which is like a sleeping plant. One of the girls who swings the urchins swings into that or does that every once in a while and then she's when she swings out, she's one of the urchins, and it's awesome. It's a really sweet card.

[19:43] Katy Pfaffl: That's awesome.

[19:45] Jeremy Kushnier: I'm so happy for you.

[19:48] Katy Pfaffl: Thanks.

[19:48] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. Well, so of all of your gigs, do you have like a favorite show?

[19:55] Jeremy Kushnier: I got lots of favorites. Um probably one of my favorite shows to do was Jersey Boys. Well, because you grow up in those shows. Like you do it, you do.

[20:03] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[20:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then focus was amazing because it brought me here. It was like this dumb, like, because I I was set up for some things in a good way, and then for some things not set up in a good way. Like we talked about being a lead versus being a swing, but like being a young person coming to New York is to to star in a Broadway show, brand new Broadway show for the very first time, um, to originate a role, w was not set up for what that means and what and and what it doesn't mean.

[20:29] Katy Pfaffl: And I kind of think by what it doesn't mean is like that it's a guarantee of anything.

[20:33] Jeremy Kushnier: Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah, I I think I thought that like, oh, this is this is how it is now. Right. I made it. So now I'm here. And all my jobs will be this or bigger.

[20:33] Katy Pfaffl: Right, yeah.

[20:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, and that's not the case.

[20:46] Katy Pfaffl: No, I it's really an interesting thing, and again, it always kind of comes down to like ego with this business a little bit, is because I think the students that I have that have a harder time are the ones who had it great success. Because when you have great success, you feel like you need to maintain great success, and anything that feels like it's beneath that feels hard on your heart, hard on your ego, like all these things. And you know, but the truth of this business is the job ends, then you're out of a job. It doesn't matter who you are. I mean, you know, famous people, huge huge celebrities have that same thing too.

[21:20] Jeremy Kushnier: It's it's also, I think about I think you sort of hit it on the nail by saying success, because it's like what is that that means to you. And I think when you can when you can make that evolution, um, as long as you can pay your bills, success can mean a lot of different things. Success can mean like, you know, you you get into a room with uh you're doing a a reading or auditioning for science, somebody comes up to you and says, You were the first person that I ever saw, right? You were the reason I saw focus. That's success.

[21:47] Katy Pfaffl: Oh my god.

[21:48] Jeremy Kushnier: It has nothing to do with awards, and it has nothing. It's just like, oh, that that makes me feel good. That like success can be like, I really wanted, I really want to be in a place where I can maintain friendships that like that, regardless of how much we talk, that like because you are a kind person, you put kind things into the world, kind people continue to like fall into that success.

[22:12] Katy Pfaffl: That is success, yeah.

[22:13] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, I mean, living your life authentically, success. But you know, like rent was such a huge part of my life. I did it for eight years on and off.

[22:21] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah.

[22:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, everywhere from Canada to Asia. Uh there were like so many good highs and good lows, like it really felt like I really lived my life during that period of my life.

[22:34] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, well, and it must have been so different too back because this is you know, last century um it was such a totally different climate.

[22:43] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, I mean, there was no internet.

[22:46] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, we were on a Benny tour.

[22:48] Jeremy Kushnier: There was just the just started. Like a chat group, there's a couple of rent chat groups. There were like sort of a lot of negativeness that happened with the Oh, really?

[22:58] Katy Pfaffl: Like trolling even back in the day.

[22:59] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, yeah.

[23:00] Katy Pfaffl: Wow.

[23:00] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. Because it also the beginning of this idea that a young community could find itself within a show.

[23:11] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[23:12] Jeremy Kushnier: Like it didn't really, like Broadway didn't really exist like that. There were some shows that sort of touched on like a younger vibe, hair, stuff like that. But like there was nothing, nothing like rent where it created this, like in the the in the best way, it was like, oh, I'm not alone. Like there are people like me. And and I and I feel seen. I belong.

[23:38] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[23:39] Jeremy Kushnier: Because I feel like a lot of times we talk at you know, art talks at, you know, a group of people. We felt like we were saying these words that were important in so many ways because it was speaking to a crowd of people. However, at that same time, as soon as as soon as a group of people feel like they have ownership on something, they really start to feel strongly about about how it's how it is supposed to be exactly.

[24:07] Katy Pfaffl: Um which was totally missing the point of like what we were living on stage.

[24:12] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, I mean, that was the creation of like the mega super fan. Like really like I remember I do you remember this? I had I had like four or five girls take voice lessons from with me to get to Josh. They didn't sing it, they didn't want to sing at all. They just knew that he was my best friend. And when he was Roger, they were like, Oh, well, if I know her. Like in proximity, I was like, Well, I'm never gonna introduce you to him because that's crazy behavior. But you know, I think it turned into that.

[24:41] Katy Pfaffl: I I don't know if you remember, but when you were in Head Over Heels, I came with a group of students that we were working with. Remember, you took us backstage and it was a bunch of our bay kids. We were running a youth pride course at LGBTQ Center. We took them to see the show, and these were a lot of kids who are in very multiple stages of discovery. A lot of them were in transition, just really deep exploration of who they were as humans. Some of the most inspiring kids I've ever worked with in my entire life. They taught me a lot of things about myself too. And we took them to see the show, and they were sobbing. They were so moved by the show. Because it's the first time that they had ever seen like peppermint was huge, but also like a female love story, also a person who was the most beautiful girl on the land who didn't look like the most typical fairy tale princesses, just all of the things.

[25:36] Jeremy Kushnier: It was just turned on its head, and I remember sitting with them in the audience while they were crying on me, going, Thank you so much for bringing me this toy. I didn't know that there could be a space for me on Broadway. And so then when they got to meet you all, it was like the best moment of their entire lives.

[25:51] Jeremy Kushnier: Really, I have pictures of it, and they success. Really, really, really changed. You are a space for them that they didn't have, yeah, really. And I wanted to give you that because I didn't get to tell you that that night. But yeah, that I have videos of them just sobbing. They were just like I belong.

[26:10] Katy Pfaffl: I belong.

[26:10] Jeremy Kushnier: And and not only that, but wow, there's a space where I can sing and dance and act on stage and still be me.

[26:19] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[26:19] Jeremy Kushnier: And I think that's the thing too for young people is that mirror. Yeah, you know, but for them, there hasn't been that mirror. And thankfully, that was one of the first shows that really opened that door.

[26:28] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[26:29] Jeremy Kushnier: And I and honestly, like again, the way that Michael and the gang put that show together really felt like oh, this isn't like it would be really easy to do a show to like fabricate this these stereotypes of you have a trans woman and you have a lesbian couple. But it that's not what the show's about. No. It was like this is a goofy love story. They just happen to be two girls that are alive. Even still in that, we still don't didn't get it totally right. You know, there's still things that that people were like, ooh. And you and but we tried. Yeah. And and really was a really fun. Yeah, I loved it. I thought it was a great show.

[27:11] Katy Pfaffl: You were great. I have a question about Paramount.

[27:15] Jeremy Kushnier: Ah, yeah.

[27:16] Katy Pfaffl: Because it's a totally different circus of different beasts. How is it?

[27:20] Jeremy Kushnier: Um there's good stuff, and it did lots of bad stuff. It was a definitely like a learning experience across the board, like how to do a circus show. Um because circus performers shouldn't do an eight shows a week. It's not the way that the art works. The problem with it is when you put circus into dramaturgy, the way that a cert show works is that if if somebody gets hurt or something happens, they take the piece out. And because of the way a circuit show is, you could put another piece in there, and it's not really telling the story. We had one moment in the show called Love Triangle. Um, and it was these three characters, me and Ruby and Ryan singing the song Love Triangle at each other, and then there was an act called a hand to trap, which is a guy in a trapeze, a guy on a f on the floor, a smaller artist that goes between them.

[28:20] Jeremy Kushnier: But in our company, it was us in Mirrored, right? So they were in the same sort of costume. Now one of them got injured or was pregnant, and so the act had to go away, and they didn't have coverage because you don't really have coverage for these things, especially at the beginning. But we couldn't take the piece out because it was part of the dramaturgy. Yeah, like how do you think? Yeah, so now you just have like three assholes sitting around singing at each other without really moving, and these like come up with something plan B of the city. Eventually we did. Now, that being said, the ground troops, the people on like outside of all of the people that created the people who were doing it amazing, amazing stage managers, amazing actors and dancers, amazing circus performers. I learned very quickly.

[29:15] Katy Pfaffl: The circus people, yeah.

[29:17] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh my god, I love nobody like nobody loves harder parties harder, has lives harder, yeah, or fuller. Um just the most amazing amazing. Talk about embracing no day but today. Absolutely, absolutely, and it really is like there were there was a lot of scary moments, but it was fun. But mostly it's just like there wasn't swings because they're not built to do it as a week. Anyway, now we did have swings in the company in the dancing in the in the acting company. I don't even know what we called our ourselves then, but it was like the the the circus company and then like the not circus company. So the not circus company was like actor singers, yeah.

[29:53] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, so we had you know, we had three or four leads, and then we had an ensemble. Um and then's interesting because you know, I did Fuerza Brutta, which is like a grungy circuit to solo. Yeah, and that's how it functioned too. And I I love that show because there's no words, only actions. It was the first time that I really understood the phrase action speak louder than words. And and I understood it as an act of too. Because when we would get swung out, and so you'd watch it. We have how well because this was like off Broadway, right? Sit in the room beforehand and talk about the show the night before. And it was great to go. Now I've seen the show twice, and you guys meant it the first time.

The second time you're just doing motion, and when you mean it, this show really does mean something. It's like a poem without the words. And so then suddenly, like six months later, they they're getting low on money, so they pull one of the stanzas of the poem. And so it was like, no, now it just hits different. But it was it was funny because the creators came at it from that more circus kind of view. I was one of the only musical theater people in the cast. We also had Olympic gymnasts and cirque people and stuff like that, and so that was really cool to mix it up with them too. We had it with puppeteers, where we had no swings for the first year, and so can't believe it. Yeah, because again, it's like sort of like circus wing and in the UK, it's totally different, and so everybody kind of covered different parts, and then we got like horse swings, puppeteer swings, and human swings, you know, and we had to kind of like work that in. But it was really interesting that it didn't occur to them.

[31:54] Katy Pfaffl: Super swing.

[31:59] Jeremy Kushnier: So bringing it back kind of to your life and your experience, do you have much interaction with swings in rehearsal as a lead? Do you or is it just sort of like you know that's a really good question. Yeah. Me personally or in general. I think for me personally, I try to make sure that I at least always check in. Mm-hmm. Just again because And that that's just from like doing it. Like wanting making sure that like people feel like yeah. They're people. Exactly. Um I also come from like a time when we remember the old school. It's like you don't call out. Right, right, right, right. You go in like diary. There's a bucket over there. Right, right. Like, hmm. No, it's true. That's so true. It's like I remember those, and it's like I remember uh an actor friend of mine pulling me aside early in my career going, like You know you're not gonna get a medal at the end of no one's getting an award for least shows missed.

Right, right, right. So it's not an attendance award at the end of the year, yeah. Um but at at the same time I think there is I think a healthy amount of like pride in what you do. Sometimes maybe gets lost in that translation. Yeah, but they're really now that I think about it, there really isn't a culture really integrating swings into a company. There's there's just not. There's not like uh, hey, let's have this like thing where we get to know these people who you know, 'cause a lot of times like our swings came in a year later. That's crazy. You know, so it was like they didn't know any of the original stuff that we all learned. We were put through like we had huge trainings, you know, for months and months, and they they missed out on all that and that bonds you as a company in a really big way.

[33:36] Katy Pfaffl: So they bonded together.

[33:38] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. And I think that often happens, you know, but it it sucks that there's the all also not a culture of like, hey, let's include these people because they're gonna be saving the show. And you're gonna be even if you're gonna be real happy that they're there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you could try, you could you could do that, but it it's gonna it comes down to each individual in the company and in the building. At the end of the day, it would be good to have a powwow or something like that because like, you know, I was one of three people who did not do burger. Everyone else did. So they were so tight tight. And you know, and uh the other two that came in with me were their same age as the rest of the ki the cast.

And I'm like the old guy at the time. You know, it did feel like there's this degree of separation. And some w it was easy to slip into, but it was very personal. It was a one-on-one kind of thing. So it's kinda hard to break in. Yeah. I do sometimes worry for seeing young people who are like having their first experience on stage on a Broadway stage. Um because you you just missed you missed all that stuff that we were all doing before you got here, which was like Yeah. Like learning to be cool and nice and learning how to like do this eight times a week, sort of. Yeah. Learning how to do it. Um, and that's an etiquette. It's like it's also just like a relationship etiquette, it's an environment etiquette.

When I work at colleges and teach them, the most important thing that you need to know as a performer is to not be an asshole. It doesn't matter how talented you are, it doesn't matter anything. The most important thing for you is to be mindful of who you're bringing into the room. Because that's gonna set the tone for everything else. And if you're a young person walking into the room, yeah, you need to step up into being mindful about how you're representing yourself in that space and just learn. Yep. Like sponge it up, learn. But like just check in with yourself to be like, am I the asshole? Because that can change a whole environment. And I wish there's a lot of people who are in the business for a lot of years who would never learn that too.

I actually do think that there's a certain amount of karma that comes along with like, yeah, you could do well for a while as an asshole. But in the end, what do you get from that? Isn't it harder? Yeah. Isn't it easier to just be nice? I mean, I get it. We've all been assholes. You probably haven't, but I know we have.

[35:57] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[35:58] Jeremy Kushnier: And you know I have, yes. And you know I have. We both seen it. So it's like there's moments. Like we all we're human. We have we have our flawed moments. And again, we are like creative individuals who are like who are passionate, constantly being like made to like to like dance like some crazy livestock animal that like needs to be the highest jumper in the room. So there's a certain amount of ego that also has to go along with that. So all of those things are there. So yes, sometimes it kits you have to fight against those lesser gods that are guiding you and be mindful and be purposeful in not being an asshole. Right. Um, so that's a really good thing that you're teaching them. And I I wish you would just like, can I get you to do that on a voice memo and I'll just wake up to it.

[36:41] Katy Pfaffl: What I mean?

[36:45] Jeremy Kushnier: Like that kindness will only ingratiate you to other artists, which then fills a room, it makes it playful, it makes it makes people feel safer to play.

[36:58] Katy Pfaffl: Yes, yes.

[36:59] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah. Since we're in the celebratory space for the moment, do you have any favorite stories of you on the stage or you and being really grateful that a swing had your back or in some scenario like that?

[37:13] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh yeah. I think that uh the my very favorite swing story was the rent story. It was the first week of previews, and we had had, of course, zero rehearsal. Because you're a swing. You why should why would you rehearse? But we used to do this thing in the basement called the bus and truck. So we had how many swings did we have? We had three male and three female, I think. That's about right, I think. Um, and so we would set up these big tables in our little green room, and we would be like, uh, I'll I'll do Roger, you paint Mimi for me in this scene, and we'll do this. And we would just so when the show started, we would do the show. Yep. Um that's how we learned it. But still never like real rehearsal, like not being on stage, like not with the mic.

No, exactly. Yeah. So we were sitting down, it was like getting to be about half hour, and Jeremy, can you come up to uh stage management? I was like, that's weird. Seems like late to be. I don't know what she wants to talk about. I get up there, and poor Chad is fully in Mark costume, and he is like this. Like just absolutely like teetering like a weevil, like just the full weevil. Like he's he was sick and then he had taken some kind of magic kit medication which didn't like agree with like something happened, he was not here. Okay. Oh no. It's like this boy cannot go on stage. Right. Right. And so they were like Ear on. I was like, you're kidding. Is this your first time also as Mark? First, I've never put a costume on.

Oh my god. We've never done anything. Did you know all your all the lines? Well, okay, so here's the end. Thankfully I think so because I because I blacked out. But I got I got to the deck. Luckily, um Shelly, uh, our dance captain. Shelly said, What do you need? I said, I need a lit cigarette, and I need somebody holding the script for every time I come off stage. Okay. You wanted a lit cigarette when you came off stage? Yes. They were like, whatever. Whatever you need to do. Just to keep you calm. Yeah. So went out, started the show, went great, ended up getting through the show. I swear to God, I just must have fully black. It was like fully black out. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[39:24] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[39:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, but that was my most scary, most favorite. Uh swing. Accomplishment. Yes. Yeah. Because it was yeah, it was like, yeah.

[39:34] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, I mean, it's that is trial by fire.

[39:37] Jeremy Kushnier: That was early on in the rent days when they were like, we're we're gonna hire what's the craziest people who walk in the room. Like, not necessarily like people that have any experience. Oh no. The swing were the swings were like the only people that had resumes. Uh-huh. Uh huh. Oh, well, or like, because Scott Hunt was Mark on the Benny tour. Uh-huh. And he called me and he was like. I'm leaving. And so he was like. Go to Bernard Telsey and drop off your stuff. And I was like, okay, but I'm not gonna drop off my resume. I'm not gonna tell him that I was in musical theater. And he was like, No, yeah, don't just drop off your CD. Yeah. So I took the C D and I left. I got halfway down the block and I got an audition.

And I literally auditioned once and had a callback, and then I And then you were there. Which you know, at that time was insane. Like people were going like, I had seven calls before they were because they were like it's soon you were that was the smartest thing you could have done. Because as soon as they knew that you had any like experience, they just didn't want to be able to do it. It used to be so taboo. Yeah, they wanted you to be a rocker. We were the first show to have these really microphones. I never even thought about that. You know what I mean? Like before that, I was like, you know, I was an endurance athlete and singer, so I was belting to the back of the house all the time, and this was such a luxury.

I remember when I made my first album and I was working in the studio, and they were like Katie. This is a microphone. Like you are singing, like you were on stage for three thousand people. And I remember I was like, oh, like that's a whole art form studio singing in the microphone. Like that's a different thing. That brings me to actually something that I wish that they would train in college, which is going from doing your show eight times a week, and you know, heaven forbid you're lucky enough that you get a cast album. Because then you go into the studio, then all of a sudden you're in a studio, and no one ever teaches theater actors how to do that what that means. I mean, it's me who I've like done both.

I still get into a studio and I'm like, I don't remember anything that I did on stage. I don't remember my lyrics, I don't remember hey, because I'm standing here, I'm not looking at everybody. Yeah, I gotta do this when I'm like, and you and you want to do it the same way you're doing it on stage, but you're like, I can feel that's a that's different proximity. You can hear it. You're in a booth, so suddenly like you're by yourself, and that's a whole different thing. Yeah, especially it depends on how you learn.

[41:56] Katy Pfaffl: Like some people learn very physically, yeah.

[41:59] Jeremy Kushnier: And so if you didn't know that's so great to talk about. Nobody ever talked about that. Yeah, and it's really a thing, yeah. And it's the biggest the biggest performers in the world get into and like don't have any mic etiquette.

[42:11] Jeremy Kushnier: Like, don't touch it, first of all.

[42:13] Katy Pfaffl: Okay, yeah, don't grab anything in that room.

[42:16] Jeremy Kushnier: Like let's let the assistant engineer come in and move it.

[42:21] Katy Pfaffl: And it's like that's their only job.

[42:23] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, but like just like what it means, like to like what you're listening for.

[42:29] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, that's the other thing I wish that they would teach in college is like stop asking sound designers for more of you in the monitoring stage.

[42:37] Jeremy Kushnier: No, that's because you're not in it.

[42:38] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[42:39] Jeremy Kushnier: You're not in the monitor, right?

[42:40] Katy Pfaffl: Right, right.

[42:40] Jeremy Kushnier: I think this brings us to I love to ask this question to people, which is Jeremy today gets to meet Jeremy at the beginning.

[42:50] Katy Pfaffl: What would you say?

[42:51] Jeremy Kushnier: So Jeremy the swing for the very beginning?

[42:53] Katy Pfaffl: Jeremy the swing for Rent?

[42:54] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, okay.

[42:54] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[42:55] Jeremy Kushnier: Gets to meet Jeremy today.

[42:57] Katy Pfaffl: What do you have to say?

[42:58] Jeremy Kushnier: I think that like just like really enjoy. I mean it's so cliché, but really enjoy all of those moments. Y you said it earlier, it's like we're in this business, and I think most businesses are like this where you're like living for the weekend, like trying to figure out what the next thing is, and making sure that that you know, all that you're doing today is making sure that you're that the next thing is gonna be good.

[43:19] Katy Pfaffl: Um that's so sucky.

[43:21] Jeremy Kushnier: Mm-hmm. Right, because you're missing this moment.

[43:23] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[43:23] Jeremy Kushnier: And most of the moments are really cool. Take advantage of the moments that you're in. I think in my heart, a pretty nervous, uh not nervous, shy. Um, mostly like I'm like this extrovert's like living in like a shy person, and so I very often feel like I have a hard time reaching out to people for things.

[43:43] Katy Pfaffl: Um so I have to I have to actively do that.

[43:46] Jeremy Kushnier: Um and also uh I've I'm very aware of my imposter syndrome and uh uh feel like I could tell myself to give myself grace and that most people aren't paying attention to you because they're too busy worrying about themselves it's not about you right yeah yeah so if you let that go life is a lot easier especially in this business it's like no one really cares like they'd rather you just worried about you and we're good because they're so much more concerned about how they're doing.

[44:17] Katy Pfaffl: Right, right, right, right.

[44:18] Jeremy Kushnier: Um I just would say just like good luck. Like it's fucking hard.

[44:24] Katy Pfaffl: Well and you know you mentioned imposter syndrome and I think that's really interesting.

[44:28] Jeremy Kushnier: Like people kind of think of imposter syndrome at the beginning of their career.

[44:32] Katy Pfaffl: Oh no it's way worse later do you feel?

[44:34] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh absolutely because you you know like y you've done things where you're like I had no idea what I was doing and you made it through right right so and at the same time it's like was any of that real?

[44:48] Katy Pfaffl: Like did was I any good in that I don't know like were there enough people that were blowing smoke up my ass or was I just like just like so blinders that like I didn't notice that people were like super sleep.

[45:10] Jeremy Kushnier: So then you get to the next project there's also a time between things that you're like maybe I just forgot how to do it.

[45:16] Katy Pfaffl: Maybe I never knew how to do it.

[45:18] Jeremy Kushnier: Um I think that I think that a certain amount of it is healthy because it means that you're human and it means that you have some empathy I think for the idea that you don't have all the answers that idea that you still have things to learn.

[45:33] Katy Pfaffl: Um and also it's like fuck get over it man.

[45:36] Jeremy Kushnier: Like just like it's o it's okay.

[45:38] Katy Pfaffl: You know what you're doing.

[45:39] Jeremy Kushnier: Give yourself as much grace as you would give others. I think that's the other thing I would say to myself.

[45:42] Katy Pfaffl: Beautiful.

[45:43] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[45:44] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[45:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Well and it's trust, right?

[45:46] Katy Pfaffl: Like it's at what level at some point you have to trust yourself.

[45:50] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[45:51] Katy Pfaffl: Right?

[45:51] Jeremy Kushnier: And we forget how much we trust ourselves when we're shot out of a canon and you have to go in for Mark in that moment.

[45:56] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[45:56] Jeremy Kushnier: That's ultimate trust, right?

[45:58] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[45:58] Jeremy Kushnier: So it's like if you if that's in you, then you have that accessed all the time.

[46:03] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[46:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Right?

[46:04] Katy Pfaffl: It just made me think like wait, did you go on a second show as Mark after that?

[46:09] Jeremy Kushnier: Uh I think I did a I think I did a Did you like do the weekend?

[46:12] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah I think I did the weekend.

[46:13] Jeremy Kushnier: And then very shortly after that was had the same experience for Roger except they at that point they were like, oh well go ahead.

[46:19] Katy Pfaffl: That is fine.

[46:20] Jeremy Kushnier: But still have not had any rehearsal for it.

[46:24] Katy Pfaffl: That part hadn't changed.

[46:26] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah like oh he doesn't he's the guy who doesn't need rehearsal.

[46:29] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[46:29] Jeremy Kushnier: Well come to think about it like I you know I learned before before you got to the Benny company I was there and then I learned Roger in two weeks and then performed it.

[46:40] Katy Pfaffl: Just looking at my finances I could calculate it was two point three times per week that I was going on.

[46:46] Jeremy Kushnier: And then when I went on as Mark I had less rehearsal like up until she saw my first Mark I did with Hunt yeah horrible.

[46:53] Katy Pfaffl: No when I was Mark.

[46:54] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh when you were Mark that's right that was your first Roger.

[46:57] Katy Pfaffl: In Denver yeah I saw both yeah when the glasses like right in the first number go right off my ski jump of a nose across the stage and then like forgetting stuff and getting thrown.

[47:06] Jeremy Kushnier: But stage management figured like oh he learned Roger and he was fine he's been doing it blah blah blah.

[47:11] Katy Pfaffl: He'll he'll have Mark down and I've got my ass handed to me.

[47:15] Jeremy Kushnier: Or at least that's what it felt like afterwards.

[47:17] Katy Pfaffl: Because I got thrown by that, and they were like you looked nervous, and I was like, Well, I was nervous after that.

[47:23] Jeremy Kushnier: You know, and then the nerves got into the rest of the performance, so yeah, yeah.

[47:27] Katy Pfaffl: Well, and I think that's normal.

[47:29] Jeremy Kushnier: I mean, it have have you had performances where you're you got thrown and then you just fell off.

[47:33] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, of course, yeah, right.

[47:35] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, totally, totally.

[47:36] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, you there's like all kinds of like those moments you sort of like learn tricks to like get yourself back back, yeah.

[47:42] Jeremy Kushnier: So like glasses fall off and you're like instantly at a time.

[47:45] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, nothing like now those those those things are firing way too fast, so it's just like take a breath, find something that like you can like sort of ground yourself with, yeah.

[47:55] Jeremy Kushnier: Come into the moment, yeah.

[47:56] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah.

[47:57] Jeremy Kushnier: I've been trying to think of I can remember doing the fight with you, and I was Mark and you were Roger.

[48:04] Katy Pfaffl: I can remember that, you know.

[48:05] Jeremy Kushnier: You remember with those intense moments, but that's the only real moment that I remember of being your scene partner.

[48:12] Katy Pfaffl: Do you remember anything?

[48:13] Jeremy Kushnier: I remember doing those.

[48:15] Katy Pfaffl: I specifically can remember doing a lot of that stuff with you.

[48:19] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[48:21] Katy Pfaffl: Those fights, especially, because yeah, you were definitely one of the more because you were also yes, because you you were coming, you were coming from the Roger sensibility, and so you were you were fine with being aggressive.

[48:32] Jeremy Kushnier: I like that.

[48:33] Katy Pfaffl: It was fun, it was fun doing it with you.

[48:35] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, I loved doing it with you, and I love watching you too, because like at that point in time, I saw one other guy on Broadway do it once to be able to see another person, it's so helpful as a swing, and but then to see you come out, and you were an actor, and you brought so much life and so many so much nuance that it was so great to watch and to go.

[48:55] Katy Pfaffl: And I remember even Grife knew that.

[48:57] Jeremy Kushnier: He was like, I was like, Oh, oh yeah, I'm I'm I'm there.

[49:04] Katy Pfaffl: That's really nice.

[49:05] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, it was like that doing that show.

[49:08] Katy Pfaffl: When I got back to Broadway, I was like, Oh, I could do this show for a long time.

[49:11] Jeremy Kushnier: Like, I that was one of those shows where it's like I never got tired of doing the show.

[49:15] Katy Pfaffl: You get tired of like I was like, oh, I don't want to work today.

[49:18] Jeremy Kushnier: Sure, sure.

[49:19] Katy Pfaffl: But I never got for that show.

[49:22] Jeremy Kushnier: No, never got more and more in love with it.

[49:26] Katy Pfaffl: Because of I never loved the music at first, and then it grew on me.

[49:31] Jeremy Kushnier: But it was mainly just the concepts that came through the lyrics and the concepts that came through the story that really just opened up so much about opened my heart so much and my mind.

[49:45] Katy Pfaffl: Um in that way on stage, and especially in that character, you they really it really let you like have a lot of feeling.

[49:52] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[49:53] Katy Pfaffl: Oh honestly, my f my favorite mess up if you want to mess up was on Broadway.

[49:58] Jeremy Kushnier: Boko Suzuki was conducting.

[50:00] Katy Pfaffl: I was sitting there doing um uh doing glory.

[50:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Uh-huh.

[50:04] Katy Pfaffl: And I had gotten, I think through the first verse, and I went uh um song, glory.

[50:14] Jeremy Kushnier: One song glory.

[50:17] Katy Pfaffl: Um I saw Boko like go out.

[50:24] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh we finished the song.

[50:25] Katy Pfaffl: He was like, he's gone.

[50:27] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh my god.

[50:27] Katy Pfaffl: So it was like that short.

[50:28] Jeremy Kushnier: You didn't do the high note?

[50:29] Katy Pfaffl: No, I did.

[50:30] Jeremy Kushnier: I think we did I there was there was more songs.

[50:33] Katy Pfaffl: Okay, but there was anybody that knew the show was like that's not the whole point.

[50:37] Jeremy Kushnier: No, because it there was a part where there was easy to cut to fine the one song before the virus takes hold.

[50:43] Katy Pfaffl: Like it was easy to jump to that part at the end.

[50:46] Jeremy Kushnier: Yes, I think that I feel like I've done that myself.

[50:48] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[50:48] Jeremy Kushnier: But it definitely was like it definitely was sitting there because and I I remember because I was it was the staging was like I was looking at Boko.

[50:55] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, yeah, and I could he was like, that's not it.

[50:58] Jeremy Kushnier: Oh, that he's he's gone.

[51:00] Katy Pfaffl: Well, that's a good music director, right there.

[51:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, absolutely.

[51:02] Katy Pfaffl: Oh man, he's amazing.

[51:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, I think I want to ask you one more question, which is if you have any advice to young swings who are kind of stepping into this business for in that space, you know, coming from both sides for you.

[51:16] Jeremy Kushnier: What would you what advice would you give them?

[51:18] Jeremy Kushnier: The first thing I would say is that like a lot of you feeling othered is gonna be you.

[51:22] Katy Pfaffl: Like you know, like know that without without being weird or annoying, like you're a part of the company.

[51:30] Jeremy Kushnier: Everybody thinks you're part of the company.

[51:33] Katy Pfaffl: It's okay.

[51:34] Jeremy Kushnier: And then number two, just like you have to work harder than every single person in that room.

[51:38] Katy Pfaffl: You gotta show up first, you gotta leave last, you have to work at home.

[51:42] Jeremy Kushnier: You gotta do your work.

[51:43] Katy Pfaffl: And um, if you don't want to do that, I get it, but don't be a swing then because no one is gonna do it for you.

[51:50] Jeremy Kushnier: No one's gonna do the work for you.

[51:52] Katy Pfaffl: And it's you with egg on the face.

[51:53] Jeremy Kushnier: I mean, like, it's only gonna be you.

[51:55] Katy Pfaffl: At the end of the day, you're gonna be the one who suffers from that from feeling horrible about not having your your shit together.

[52:01] Katy Pfaffl: Like did you know what a swing was when you got hired as a swing?

[52:04] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, because I had yeah, because I'd done Tommy first.

[52:07] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, okay.

[52:08] Jeremy Kushnier: So I knew what the job was.

[52:10] Katy Pfaffl: Uh-huh.

[52:11] Jeremy Kushnier: I wasn't sure I knew that I how I was gonna be able to do it.

[52:15] Katy Pfaffl: Luckily, Rent was easy.

[52:18] Jeremy Kushnier: It's like in swing.

[52:19] Katy Pfaffl: Comparative.

[52:20] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, because you have four or five tracks, right?

[52:22] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, and two of those are leads.

[52:23] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, you never have to reverse Corey O'Connor.

[52:25] Katy Pfaffl: No, yeah.

[52:26] Jeremy Kushnier: No, well, yes, you do, because Mark and Roger do the exact same thing.

[52:29] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, first time I first time I went on for Roger.

[52:32] Jeremy Kushnier: John Richardson came back his week, we got underneath the sheet, and all I felt was like get like pushed into my position.

[52:41] Katy Pfaffl: Well, because you're sitting in the spot.

[52:41] Jeremy Kushnier: Um that's not a bad place for that to happen, though.

[52:43] Katy Pfaffl: No, no, exactly.

[52:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Underneath the sheet.

[52:46] Katy Pfaffl: Um but yeah, no, I think that that I think that would be a really good thing.

[52:49] Jeremy Kushnier: Like there if there was like a resource, just like what do I need to what's the first thing that I do?

[52:54] Katy Pfaffl: Like how do I how do I like how do I know?

[52:58] Jeremy Kushnier: How do I take tracking sheets?

[52:59] Katy Pfaffl: And the other weird thing is that everybody fucking learns different.

[53:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Right, right, right.

[53:03] Katy Pfaffl: That's the other thing that every single person that we've had on here has a different method of of how they track how they mark, how they watch, what they do.

[53:12] Jeremy Kushnier: There's some great there's some pretty good apps out there.

[53:14] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[53:15] Jeremy Kushnier: Um I I've never used any of them.

[53:18] Katy Pfaffl: But uh I this last time doing Merrill was really the first time that I had to swing as many characters as uh and in such a short in in a really short amount of time.

[53:29] Jeremy Kushnier: So it I learned a lot about note cards and um which is a fantastic thing and binder rings, another fantastic thing.

[53:37] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, the little but the little cards are good because you can stick them in your costume if you get.

[53:40] Jeremy Kushnier: Exactly.

[53:41] Katy Pfaffl: Exactly.

[53:42] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[53:42] Katy Pfaffl: Uh and then you know, highlighters your friend.

[53:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Yep.

[53:44] Katy Pfaffl: Now, in Maryland, how did they feel okay?

[53:48] Jeremy Kushnier: Did you ever film anything?

[53:50] Katy Pfaffl: Were you all out?

[53:51] Jeremy Kushnier: Because some of the kids were talking about they could film stuff and watch it, and I'm like, whoa, that never happened anymore.

[53:56] Jeremy Kushnier: We had access to because that show gets filmed all the time.

[54:01] Katy Pfaffl: We had a lot of we had access to a lot of filming things.

[54:03] Jeremy Kushnier: Sometimes you had to like use it in-house.

[54:07] Katy Pfaffl: Because you also have now you're dealing with guys like Dan.

[54:11] Jeremy Kushnier: It's like you get Harry Potter in the house.

[54:13] Katy Pfaffl: That can't get out.

[54:14] Jeremy Kushnier: No, of course not.

[54:16] Katy Pfaffl: Right.

[54:17] Jeremy Kushnier: But uh uh rehearsals, there was a lot of we filmed rehearsals.

[54:21] Katy Pfaffl: That's not great.

[54:22] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, we didn't yeah, we definitely didn't have that.

[54:24] Katy Pfaffl: No, no, no, no.

[54:25] Jeremy Kushnier: No, not even in in Spider-Man days in 2011.

[54:28] Katy Pfaffl: Oh, really?

[54:29] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah.

[54:29] Katy Pfaffl: In 2010.

[54:30] Jeremy Kushnier: I had to ask I asked a bunch of permission and finally and it was all no to just film the flights so I could go home and like learn them because they were sending me home early because I was doing double duty at first.

[54:42] Katy Pfaffl: So I never saw the Act Two flights.

[54:44] Jeremy Kushnier: And I was gonna have to do it, you know.

[54:46] Katy Pfaffl: And um, so finally Danny, the choreographer was like, just go open the balcony, film it.

[54:50] Jeremy Kushnier: You promised me you're not gonna and I was like, Yeah, no, I'm only gonna use it.

[54:53] Katy Pfaffl: So luckily I had that, yeah.

[54:55] Jeremy Kushnier: And I needed it because I that whole thing happened like yeah, that yeah, yeah crazy.

[55:01] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[55:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, this has been awesome.

[55:04] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, super awesome.

[55:05] Jeremy Kushnier: It's been awesome for me.

[55:06] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, no, I mean, we adore you, and it's just so nice to be able to spend time to really stretch out and get to know you better and share your stories, share your wisdom.

[55:14] Jeremy Kushnier: So thank you so much for being with us.

[55:16] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah, you can't wait to come see in and how can people find you online?

[55:22] Jeremy Kushnier: Um, uh I'm on Instagram, just my name, Jeremy Kushnier.

[55:26] Katy Pfaffl: Okay, cool.

[55:27] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, yeah.

[55:28] Katy Pfaffl: So well, everyone go rush out, go see Jeremy.

[55:30] Jeremy Kushnier: Amazing.

[55:31] Katy Pfaffl: Okay, and that's it's definitely till June at this point.

[55:33] Jeremy Kushnier: Definitely till June.

[55:34] Katy Pfaffl: Okay, cool.

[55:35] Jeremy Kushnier: Well, we'll be there.

[55:36] Katy Pfaffl: Welcome.

[55:36] Jeremy Kushnier: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[55:38] Katy Pfaffl: Thank you so much.

[55:38] Jeremy Kushnier: Thank you.

[55:39] Katy Pfaffl: Yeah.

[55:40] Jeremy Kushnier: Yay.

[55:41] Katy Pfaffl: Thanks so much for staying with us all the way to the end of the episode.

[55:44] Jeremy Kushnier: Make sure to tune in to our next episode coming out in a few weeks.

[55:48] Katy Pfaffl: Check us out on Instagram at Super Swings Broadway.

[55:50] Jeremy Kushnier: And if there's any super swings out there that you think we should interview, please drop into our DMs and let us know.

[55:56] Katy Pfaffl: And we will reach out to them because we want to have as many super swings out there in the spotlight as we possibly can.

[56:02] Jeremy Kushnier: Thanks so much.

[56:05] Katy Pfaffl: Super Swings!

[56:07] Jeremy Kushnier: Save in the show.