This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:04] Samantha Tuozzolo: Hi everyone, welcome to Survival Jobs, a podcast in collaboration with Broadway World and the Broadway Podcast Network.

[0:12] Samantha Tuozzolo: My name is Samantha Tuozzolo, and I'm here with my boy Jason A. Coombs.

[0:16] Jason A. Coombs: We're live from the Welcome to Times Square Studios.

[0:19] Samantha Tuozzolo: And we're just like feeling gratitude and happiness and thankfulness and the season of Thanksgiving. Hi, Jason. How are you?

[0:28] Jason A. Coombs: I am so good. I'm happy to be back in the studio. It feels nice.

[0:32] Samantha Tuozzolo: Nice. Nice to be back here. Nice to be in New York City. It's just been a fun, fun couple months. So really crazy couple months. I have to say the fall's been absolutely bananas for me.

[0:42] Jason A. Coombs: Cuckoo Wild's bananas.

[0:44] Samantha Tuozzolo: But I do want to talk about, unfortunately, we can't go see it anymore because Bat Boy was at City Center for the Halloween, you know, time of year.

[0:52] Jason A. Coombs: Right.

[0:53] Samantha Tuozzolo: And let me tell you something. I've known all the music from Bat Boy for quite some time, but I had never seen a production, and this production was absolutely stellar.

[1:01] Jason A. Coombs: I'm just gonna rattle off a few names, Taylor Trench, Tony. Bring this to Broadway if anyone's listening, and give that boy a Tony.

[1:08] Samantha Tuozzolo: Alan. Alan, bring it to Broadway.

[1:11] Jason A. Coombs: Um Carrie Butler, icon.

[1:14] Samantha Tuozzolo: Gabby Karuba, icon. She's like a star in the making. Like, you know, like she will be, she is a star, but you know what I mean. Like in a few years, people will, everyone will know who she is.

[1:28] Jason A. Coombs: I mean, the production was just so good. It's just what we need right now. It's camp, it's fun, and it's stellar.

[1:35] Samantha Tuozzolo: Christopher Sieber, bye. Marissa Jane Whitaker, bye. Like everybody. The show Alex Timbers icon.

[1:44] Jason A. Coombs: Alex Timbers never ceases to give us a hit.

[1:49] Samantha Tuozzolo: Oh, I love that. So thank you, Alex Timbers, for all that you do. And oh, shout out to our friend and former guest, Mary McGowan, who is the assistant director on it. Go, Mary.

[1:57] Jason A. Coombs: So, shout out to you too, Mary, because this production was just so good. And I'm sorry to talk about it after the fact and nobody can see it. Um, but hopefully it comes back in some way, shape, or form.

[2:10] Samantha Tuozzolo: So hold me bat boy, love me, bat boy. Keep me in your arms tonight. I don't think those are the lyrics, but it's something similar.

[2:17] Jason A. Coombs: Oh, love that. Thank you. Should we talk about Ethan?

[2:20] Samantha Tuozzolo: Oh my gosh. Today's guest is Ethan Lipton, the writer for The Seat of Our Pants.

[2:28] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah. Playing now at the public theater. Jason, I feel like you loved talking to Ethan. Like, of course I did as well, but like I feel like your writer part of you was like so connected and locked in with him.

[2:40] Jason A. Coombs: Right. He's so cool. Like, I always had this dream about being like a cool musician. Like I knew it was like maybe in a past life I was like a musician. So like seeing, like getting to like explore some of his work, right? It was so cool and just interesting. And he's just a fascinating human being. And I'm so excited to see that show after talking to him. I can't wait.

[2:57] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah, and like, I don't know. He's just a cool person. And I don't know. We're excited. He's awesome.

[3:03] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, he's awesome. You're awesome.

[3:05] Samantha Tuozzolo: You're awesome. We're gonna bring the interview to you all. I hope you all tune in. Enjoy it. Get your notebooks out, like I always say. He's dropping gems, y'all. And go to the public now.

[3:14] Jason A. Coombs: Right. Get some tickets. Boom. Chick a bang bang. Enjoy.

[3:23] Samantha Tuozzolo: Ethan, welcome to Survival Jobs Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us here on Technical Difficulty Day. We're so happy to help you. How are you feeling?

[3:32] Ethan Lipton: Happy Friday. Happy all the things. I'm doing great. Really excited to be working on the show and looking forward to speaking to you two.

[3:41] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yes, the show, The Seat of Our Pants at the Public Theater, playing right now, which we're going to talk so much about.

[3:48] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, we're excited to talk about it. But I wonder, I want to start with because I love sitting down with artists like you that kind of wear multiple hats as someone who tries to wear multiple hats. And I kind of feel like that's where our industry is kind of going, right? Like we were just saying before we hit the record button. Like who does this one thing?

[4:02] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[4:06] Jason A. Coombs: But um, before you became such a success in having shows at the public, did you have a memorable survival job on your up and up?

[4:14] Ethan Lipton: I mean, I don't want to break any hearts here, but I have had survival jobs until recently, you know. It's really yeah, that's how it goes. Like, you know, a couple of years ago, even after I had started to get some pretty big gigs. And so yeah, my main survival gig for a long time was copy editing. I worked in magazine, and I had one job for like I don't know, 10 or 11 years, um, that really kept me going. And when that job ended, um, was the first time that I ever tried to combine my songwriting and my playwriting. I got one of the first New York voices commissions from Shanta Fake at Joe's Pub. Shanta was into this idea of trying to create music theater that would sort of come from people who were playing in the pub, who had like a music point of view.

I had been playing with my band there for a few years, and then I had this separate relationship with the public because I was in the first emerging writers group in 2008. I was kind of doing these two things and I really kept them separate at that time, kind of to protect them from each other, you know, like to take refuge in one from the other. I really started doing the music because I was struggling to find my way into the theater. Even though I'd been writing plays for a long time, when I moved to New York, I kind of couldn't figure out my way in. Anyway, I'm going way back now. But um, so yes, I had many survival jobs, and then this big job was ending, and Shanta commissioned me. She was like, What about, you know, writing a piece of music theater for you and the band?

And that was the first time that I did that, and then I wrote a show called No Place to Go, which is about a guy whose job is being outsourced to Mars. Wow that sort of ended up my first real entree into the theater world. I'd had a couple of other productions, but that one toured and that kind of became a thing.

[6:40] Jason A. Coombs: That's sort of like ultimate survival job, huh? Going to Mars.

[6:43] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, yeah. You know, and for me, the reason why I chose Mars, this job that I had that was very real, was moving to Connecticut. And I was like, um, but it felt like Mars to me, and I felt like Mars was more universal in some way. Like I it wasn't actually the Connecticut wasn't the problem, you know. The state of Connecticut, it wasn't about that. It was about this place where all of these people had kind of dedicated all this time, and the company was deciding to like save a few bucks and take it out of town, um, and uproot all of these lives, and they were sort of giving us a choice to go. And some people chose to go and like left New York for good. And some people were like, you know, I was like, New York is where I need to be for all of these other reasons. Um, and so Mars was my attempt to come up with a metaphor for like the impossible thing that you have you're asked to do. And I couldn't go there.

[7:50] Samantha Tuozzolo: Someone from Connecticut, I can relate.

[7:52] Ethan Lipton: Oh yeah.

[7:53] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yes. We're both from Connecticut, actually.

[7:56] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[7:57] Samantha Tuozzolo: Well, that's how it kind of felt like after the pandemic, because like I moved back from New York to Connecticut during the pandemic, and it felt like a whole different world, right? So I can totally totally connect to that. Thank you for sharing.

[8:09] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[8:10] Samantha Tuozzolo: No, no shade on Connecticut. I have fond feelings for Connecticut.

[8:15] Ethan Lipton: Okay, so let's jump right in to The Seat of Our Pants. This is the third show that you've put on with the public.

[8:21] Ethan Lipton: Yes.

[8:22] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah. And I read that it took this whole process has been 12 years in the making. So can you tell us about the conception of this show and the biggest struggle for you through this 12-year creative process, as well as the biggest reward through such a long creative process?

[8:42] Ethan Lipton: Yeah. So it started with um a guy named Jeremy McCarter at the public reached out to me. He had seen this show No Place to Go. And Jeremy was there working on special projects for the theater, whatever, whatever that meant. Jeremy has been like a critic, he's done all these amazing things in the theater. We never know exactly what he's doing or how he's doing it, but he's always up to interesting things. And he sent me an email, short email that was like, hey, um, he was a Wilder fan, a Thornton Wilder fan, and he thought that my ability as a songwriter might be a good match. That play is absurd and um sincere and ironic, this weird combination of tones. That's stuff that I kind of play with.

Um it's playful about serious things, which is something I like to do. And uh he said, Would you be interested in doing this? And I, you know, I had seen a production of The Skin of Our Teeth in college and did not get it, you know. It didn't it didn't reach me, which if you talk to people about that play, there's a chunk for whom like that's their favorite play in the world, and then everybody else is like, yeah, I'm not sure. I don't I don't maybe maybe I haven't seen the right production. Um not sure that I get it. And I was in that camp. I read it again with my grown-up brain, um, and I was so touched by it and so excited by it by how ambitious it was, um, and how it was trying to reach people like in in their heart and their belly, but also in their brain.

And I'm someone uh who likes music and theater and music theater that tries to get people in all of those places, and like that's you know, not everybody is interested in that, but I really love I feel like ideas can and should be a part of the theater experience or any art experience, and um, so I was really into that. And uh then began uh a courtship with the estate, the Wilder Estate, which is run by his nephew, uh Tappen Wilder, who's now in his 80s. And um and we sort of spent some time, you know, we met, and then he went, he flew from Marin on the West Coast to Chicago to see a play of mine in a storefront production, you know, in some yeah, which was amazing. And that that show was called Red Handed Otter.

It was about a security guard whose cat dies, um, and how that affects his workplace kind of snowballs. And it has a lot of stories about people's animals dying. And for whatever reason, Tappen walked out of that show and was like, that's that's the guy um to do this thing, which you know, some other like legendary theater people have done adaptations of uh turning it into a musical. The public ended up commissioning me, and I started working on it and worked, you know, like one act at a time, just tried to feel my way through it.

[11:48] Ethan Lipton: Um, and we would have a workshop after each one, which was always great, and then we were in pretty good shape. I think we were like sort of this is maybe ready to go into production in 2020, in early 2020, and we all know what happened then.

[12:03] Jason A. Coombs: We do, yeah, world-changing events, yeah.

[12:08] Ethan Lipton: And so it, you know, there was just a nothing was being done, and then when stuff was getting done again, there was this big backup of projects. Um and the public was producing less, so it was a lot of things that made that time what it was. And I will say that that was probably the biggest challenge was just keeping the faith believing that it would happen you know you when you're working on something for a long time you start to feel like a little crazy sometimes because you're you know you're like do I is this a real thing like sometimes I tell people about it and then I feel like such a dumbass because I'm like why did I talk about that? That's not even a real thing. Right you know and uh and you move on you work on other projects and um and that was you know that that can really get you at times.

Um but it never the struggle never came from within the show the show was always I felt so generous with me the play was it was just like a playground and if I tried something and and the show couldn't contain it it would like kick it out you know if I tried to do something to a particular draft and it wasn't it would be pretty clear with me right away would say nope nope I won't I won't hold this um so it the the challenges were really the life challenges that went around it and the joy um there are two things that come to mind one is that actually I feel like it's taken the amount of time it needed to take that I have gotten to it was meant to be I kept getting to go back to that playground like I've been able to play in that playground go away from it come back and play in it for all of this time and I continue to find new things in it.

[13:58] Ethan Lipton: And that has been um such a such a a uh a fulfilling experience really that I don't know that I could ever have with something where I wrote the first version of it. You know, it's because I I had this incredible piece of architecture to respond to. And the other thing that was really joyful is just like these last couple of weeks being in previews and tech, where there's like 40 people in the room, all of these different departments. You know, there's like uh four people in the music department, 15-person band, two in choreo, three in directing, you've got a four-person stage management team. Guadalupe, my my script assistant, who's like coming over, checking with me all the time, uh on on changes, making all those changes.

Um all these designers, and there's like, you know, we'll be holding for a moment. You're waiting for some cue to be finished or something, and you look around, and there's like 12 sidebar conversations. Right of people just, you know, uh Kim, our associate choreographer, like talking to an actor about one moment, everybody just doing whatever they can to push the show as far as we can and and and make it this creature that it's trying to be. And that is that's like the greatest. That's why you do this whole thing is to see all of those people working together. It's it's awesome.

[15:21] Jason A. Coombs: That's the magic of theater, baby.

[15:22] Ethan Lipton: Like, I feel like that's that's not what it is. That's why we love it. It is great.

[15:28] Jason A. Coombs: So he talks a little bit about no place to go. And is it true that that that production was up in 11 months?

[15:35] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, that production was like the fastest production. Oscar used to jump the fastest commission to production in the history of the public theater.

[15:42] Jason A. Coombs: Wow.

[15:43] Ethan Lipton: And and this show, I don't know if it was the longest, but it was up there. You can set up the records with the public.

[15:50] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[15:54] Ethan Lipton: Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[15:55] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, I was just gonna say it. It is I I it this feels a little pat, but you know, show shows take the time that they take. And if you you you can get so wrapped up in in wanting it to happen. I mean, for for um a creative person, you always want it to happen in as little time as possible, right? Because you just want one, it's like your excitement is there and your drive is there, and um you need it to happen, you know, because of whatever fantasy of a career you think it's going to give you. Um so there's all of this want for it to happen, and and it just it takes the time it takes. That show, I was really I was writing something kind of in real time. I was still at that job, no place to go that I was writing about, and so I could um really access everything about it.

I like I was actually working on my art just by going to work because I knew that I was writing about that in some way, so I was very alive to it, and we didn't know what we were doing. That was like the first musical I'd ever tried to write, and it was for my band. Um, and I so I I worked on the songs. I knew I wanted the songs to be something my band could own, you know, because we we really were even though I'm I'm in this theater world, we we just played gigs. We were a band playing gigs, and uh and so I that was my first threshold, and then I I told the story around it, and we did the first version of it like in six months after I'd been commissioned.

[17:26] Ethan Lipton: Wow, and Oscar had a big response to it, and Shonta loved it, and so they decided to program it for a theatrical run in the pub, and and that was totally scary and awesome.

[17:39] Jason A. Coombs: That's amazing. I mean, that turnaround time is um like not real.

[17:45] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, impossible.

[17:47] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, but but also very possible because look at what happened. Um so we'll go back to Seat of Our Pants. Sorry, Jay, you had something.

[17:56] Jason A. Coombs: I want to go back to Seat of Our Pants. Um the creative team on this is so star-studded, so is the cast. You know, you have multiple Tony nominees and winners sprinkled in through uh the director and some of your actors. So I just want to talk about what the collaboration was like uh as you developed and and and working with these people and and and what you took away from that.

[18:23] Ethan Lipton: Well, Lee Silverman is is my ride or die. Uh she is uh this is our fifth show together. Um she's done three all three of my band musicals and and this play of mine that had music in it called Tumacho. And Lee um, you know, Lee has a number of superpowers. Sh sh first of all, she's been through it with new work and with new musicals. So she really knows the process well and she knows it very well at the public because she's done um I think this is her third new musical. And new musicals are they're such strange things, you know, there's just so much involved, resources, and so many things you're figuring out. Um and Lee is well, Lee's like a great uh dramaturg, just you know, that that thing alone.

She's like one of the great dramaturgs we have just because she's done so much new work um as a part of her directing, but she's also a great leader of people, and she uh you know, has worked with a ton of people and is really great at establishing relationships and is really great at leading the room. So it this was a very collaborative room. Our designers, Dan Kluger, who did the orchestrations. Dan and I spent a year working on those orchestrations. And the show from for my money really sounds incredible. Dan had done those orchestrations for Oklahoma, uh, for that Daniel Fish production. I don't know if if you guys saw that. Um, but I thought that sounded so beautiful. It really sounded like kind of an honest American music in some way.

Uh, and it really moved me, and so I wanted him to do the orchestrations for this show. Um, but but he's just one of the people, Sonny, who did the Sonny hit into the the uh the Choreo, um Kay Voice, uh Lee Jelinek, our set designer, and then these actors, um, some of whom have been with the show from earlier workshops, and a bunch of whom were new to it, everyone has just been so wildly dedicated to the work, and it's just not always the case, you know. Um, and every show has some people who struggle, uh, whether it's a designer who can't get their vision or you know, um executed by the theater or an actor who's just slightly outside of the role, can't find their way in.

[20:47] Ethan Lipton: Right. Um, you know, and so there's always you there you're never like coasting. Um you really have to keep working until the very end. We today our our show is frozen um as of yesterday, and we have one more rehearsal this afternoon just for notes. We're gonna do an hour of notes, and we have no tech. We're just gonna, you know, keep keep pushing it to as far as you could. And if people are into that, like if you're looking around the room at grown-ups who are into that, like who are passionate about it, sometimes I'm like, you guys, you must have other lives. How could you designers stay here until 12 30 at night and then come back at 10 in the morning or whatever it is? It's the dedication, like as a playwright, you don't see it that often, right?

They all work all the time, so they're like kind of constantly, they're occasionally stopping, you know. Uh, but for your as a playwright, you're just in a room for a premiere every few years, you know. So every time I'm in there, and this is the biggest show I've ever worked on. I'm like, these humans, they're so they're so awesome. I'm so into them. That's the passion, you know. When you see that happen, you're like, wow, these people, we all love it. And when it's when the material is good and when the vibes are good and the the crew is good, and you put the right people together, the passion ignites.

[22:11] Jason A. Coombs: Really, yeah. I think also like when they want to see, like when you have a good story that they believe in, right? And they're like, Okay, I want this to be the best it can be. We're gonna put in those hours, we're gonna be there till midnight and come back at 9 10 in the morning, you know, because we believe in it.

[22:24] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, yeah. And I like when you're a kid, when you're first coming up, like you're like, well, that's sort of what we have to do, you know. But actually, when people get to be killer pros, they're still doing that, you know. They're still like these actors, they're still the ones who've won awards, like they're still working on it, they're still trying. It's it's it's amazing. So when you combine that sense of community and professionalism, right? It goes deep, yeah.

[22:57] Jason A. Coombs: Love that. So you did talk about that this is based off of throwing wild the risk of our teeth musically how did you approach balancing the humor and spectacle and like uh the emotional resonance in this show and how did you preserve or reinvent it for like a modern audience and why is this show like important now and still in 2025?

[22:58] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, I mean the question of why is it important now is was the question we we I started asking 12 years ago uh and have been asking ever since uh because it's it changes right like you you you're you're the assignment is to be extremely present a million times over time and if you're going to be extremely present at the beginning then extremely present means something different at the end right you have you have to do be present that whole time and for me as far as the music I just wanted to keep listening to the play you know like let the play lead me I did want the music to open the show up like that that show is about these archetypes the play is the skin of our teeth and I and sometimes a lot of the times when the the play is produced the characters are really pushed far away and at a remove and people kind of lean into the style of the talking and the um you know the 1940sness of of all that and that that's cool I understand why people might do that um but for me I wanted to get to them as people.

[24:33] Ethan Lipton: So that was sort of my mission musically was to like try to unpack them, the ideas, the world they're in, um, in a way that we're yeah the humanness in a way that we could relate to. Um, and then I um, you know, I like the I guess I like the music I like, and a lot of it is is from you know, it's 20th century forms of uh rock and and and folk and country and jazz and um Tin Pan Alley and some more modern elements, but you know, I don't have any musical training, I don't and I don't have a relationship to like classical Western classical music or or opera, which is where a lot of musical theater kind of relates to, um which I you know which I love. Um, but I I really grew up on Troubadour singer songwriters.

And so my what has happened with my band is I write um, you know, whatever songs that I'm writing in terms of irony and sincerity, that balance, and the music is always taken very seriously. Um and they I arrange those songs with my band. I don't notate music and I and I don't play any instruments. So I really need my arrangers to be vibing with me. Um and uh and so that was the process I had with Dan. You know, we had worked on I had worked on these songs for a number of years, and so there were chords and a form, and I knew sort of what their basic bones were. And then I talked with Dan and he tried to realize them for a 10-piece band, you know, which is a very specific skill set. And some of the songs we have everybody in there, and it's like wailing, and it's it's um the music is is really dynamic, and other songs it's very intimate, and it's like just a guitar um or a guitar and a bass.

And um I just tried to listen to the play, write songs that I heard from it, and then when you you know, you get one song, you're like, Well, that next song should be different. Uh it should have a different energy, right stuff. You start planting little seeds, and before you know it, you have like a um uh a shape to it.

[26:54] Jason A. Coombs: That's amazing. Just to hear, you know, the creative process and like where it came from to what it is now. It always is like so cool to just be a fly on the wall and just sit back and listen.

[27:07] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially because like I don't know anything about creating music, so like that's just like you know, I can do you know, be in rehearsal rooms for acting, but like to hear that kind of collaboration is is really cool to listen to.

[27:19] Samantha Tuozzolo: What what what other things do you two do in in theater? What how did you get into this? What was your calling?

[27:28] Ethan Lipton: Well, we both well to me as acting, we both started out acting. I no longer am. Not that I will never go back to it, but you know, I I find a lot of joy in in this.

[27:43] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah. So I just started a second podcast that's women artist focused. Jason has Jason runs seven million film festivals and does a few million things. He does start at the Bridgeport Film Festival in um Birchport, Connecticut. Speaking of how much Connecticut, we love, just like Mars. Um but yeah, and then we got the idea because we were working, he and I worked a one million survival jobs together pre-pandemic, you know, from serving to we were in music venues, 9-11 memorial.

[28:18] Ethan Lipton: Oh no, no, yeah.

[28:20] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah. So how did you end up w working together in all those places?

[28:26] Ethan Lipton: Samantha got me like every job pretty much.

[28:28] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah, I did.

[28:31] Ethan Lipton: Right.

[28:34] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah. I love that. Even in survival jobs, you gotta have friends.

[28:38] Ethan Lipton: I mean, I sort of was just like when I started working in the city in my early 20s, I like made these friendships pretty quickly with management. And then I just brought all my friends.

[28:50] Samantha Tuozzolo: Really, really though. It was pretty cool.

[28:52] Ethan Lipton: It was pretty cool. I got I got my first copy editing job and and I hadn't really done much copy editing. Um maybe I mean a little bit, but it was really because a friend let me know about this job and and they're they wanted they wanted people they could, you know, trust and relate to or whatever it was. But yeah, you really need help. You really need help all along the way. That's why I always tell people, like, especially they get kind of I used to go back to my high school a lot to speak to the high school students. I'm just like, it's all about the connections you have, right? You're the friend you're make. Like you're not gonna just like you know, people wanna like I want to network with people above me.

It's about people like on the same level as you, right? You're gonna pull each other up as you climb. So I always tell people that because you never know like who's gonna be the person from your class or or your group that's gonna be, you know, in the hot seat that's gonna be able to help you later on in life.

[29:45] Jason A. Coombs: So I think it's yeah, immunity. Uh you know, I didn't I didn't go to grad school, so I and and I for me that was the right choice. I mean, people weren't doing it as much when I was coming out of undergrad. Um but but then it became very um, you know, the field became very professionalized at that time. And uh there, you know, I my my path has been a little longer than some people's. Um and it was it's been the right path for me. But but something I I I would think about from time to time. It's like all those, I didn't realize that grad school was maybe about the people that you met. Um you know exactly what you're saying, those other um just those those those people in your cohort.

[30:29] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, and so I had to find that in other ways, you know.

[30:33] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah, I was gonna say you can find that in other ways through you know doing things in New York without the student loans.

[30:40] Ethan Lipton: Exactly. Exactly. And I think in some ways, some ways I I whatever voice that I have as a writer is is a product of the path that I took. The fact that I that I really went to work right out of college. Um, you know, I moved to Chicago when I was 21 and started temping. Um and so work has always been kind of central to my to my journey. Um, and so it ended up working for me. I I agree, you can find your people anywhere.

[31:16] Samantha Tuozzolo: And your story is so important for our listeners because you did say, you know, your journey was a little longer and work was central for you. And I feel I feel like a lot of artists start to lose hope when you're still stuck in your survival job, or you're going to the audition or submitting that play, and nothing's taking off, and it just gets a little like disheartening and and and you're discouraged. But then when you hear stories like yours, and I also think about Bridget Everett, who is a queen who I love who was you know waiting tables for so long and and Dowd has another really interesting story where she was also waiting tables for so long and now she's an Emmy winner you know so it's like you just gotta trust where you are and then and then and be a good person and and keep learning your craft and everything will will come when it's supposed to and I really believe that and so thank you for sharing that to reaffirm it.

[31:39] Ethan Lipton: Yeah I I was I was 37 when I got into the EWG that emerging writers group and I'd been writing plays for like 15 years and had had a few produced but there was no institution that was interested in my work at that time um all of that stuff really started to happen after I after I'd been doing it for 15 15 years.

[32:35] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah like Abuela Claudia says in in the heights please forgive me with my horrible Spanish but Picencia patience and faith that's it that's all we need um I want to jump back in a little bit to see um seat of our pants this question I've been really loving to ask people so as you wrote this play and really get to learn these characters over 12 years is there one specific character in the play that you've learned a lesson from who is that character and what is that lesson and what do you hope the audiences learn from the production um is there a character I've learned something from.

[33:22] Ethan Lipton: I mean I'm I'm torn because they they they all offer their own glimpse of something. Mrs. Androbus, I will say, I'm I I kind of want to say Sabina, but I'll say Mrs. Antrobus. She is someone who is she's been in this marriage for 5,000 years. And um she really has had to find ways to own the role and the life that she has because it's a role, because she's this archetype, um, you know, she never really gets the keys to the car. Uh she she runs the household, um, but her husband is trapped in the archetype that he's trapped in and isn't going to change. And the way that she sort of turns her circumstance into um into to a kind of agency. Um I guess it's just for me, she she's an example of of figuring out how to own the life that you have.

Right. Um, and and figuring out a way to not be uh a victim in it. Uh uh even if you are sometimes victimized in it, you know. Um and I I that I don't mean that the takeaway from that is like accept your lot. I don't it's it's not about that, but it is about reconnecting with um what you have and figuring out how to own it in some way.

[35:08] Ethan Lipton: Um and what I want people to take away from the play is I guess that that I want people to check in with the species that they're a part of, you know, and and and and kind of be like, whoa, we're we're we're we're tough. You know, we're we're really we are such strange animals. And um it's been it's been tough for a long time. You know, it was tough in the ice age. Uh and and sometimes the world makes it tough, and sometimes we make it tough. And um, you know, the act of theater, the act of making the show and doing the show is a metaphor for what we need to do as a species for what we do for what we do best, which is finding a way to work together and share the space, even when our interests are different.

Um and I hope people just I hope people feel seen, like because right the with the the the world feels like it's ending and the show is about the the feeling that the world is ending and the reality that the world is often ending. Um I hope people feel seen by that and that they have a little bit more compassion for themselves and their fellow humans. Um uh uh because of just it's actually really hard. It's really hard. It's always been hard, still really hard.

[36:47] Samantha Tuozzolo: Oh, thank you for sharing that. I'm so inspired by you. Thank you. I think I needed this today. As as someone who's been slacking on my writing, I think uh just hearing you and then listening to your work. And I'm so excited to see the play. Um, the Oakford series that I some tickets to hopefully come soon. So we're gonna play it a date to come to go see it.

[37:07] Ethan Lipton: Um we have one last question, and we always end our interview with a really, really fun game.

[37:12] Samantha Tuozzolo: I hope they told you.

[37:14] Ethan Lipton: I I didn't know, I didn't get any warning.

[37:17] Samantha Tuozzolo: So hopefully I'll know how to play.

[37:19] Ethan Lipton: Right.

[37:21] Samantha Tuozzolo: Um last question, and you've been sharing lots of advice, like I said, I'm I'm so inspired by this, but do you have any advice for any other up-and-coming writers or just writers who maybe feeling stuck in their survival jobs and you know, are maybe not sure if this is a thing they want to do?

[37:36] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, what I would say is um i if you think of your survival job as being the antagonist in your life, um it's gonna make it a lot harder. Your your your survival job is what is enabling you to live. And it it may not be uh the form that you want, you know, but but it is it it's it's actually helping you and it's not the enemy. And uh I I understand it may take too much from you at times, but it's also giving you something. And I I do think it's important to try to find the survival job that works for you, you know. Like I I for me, um the restaurant world was never the right world because I needed to uh write in the mornings and I needed some chunk of time. And when I was at my job, my job always had a a bunch of downtime, which you know could be boring, but but I could use that to push my career.

I could use that to like be emailing venues about gigs and and and I sort of ran my business from from that survival job and that was a place where I could do that. In the big picture I would say for me all you know most of it's survival jobs you know if you're in academia or even if you're like writing film and TV like uh uh or or you're working in an office you're you're always serving some some higher source there's always somebody telling you what to do or or almost always yeah and uh the opportunities to really make the work that you want to make those just come every now and then and everything else is kind of a survival job so um I think I think the whole writer works uh better when they can accept that or or act or whatever and kind of be like you know this is what's happening this is what you're doing and it's it's enabling you to stay in the game and if you got to get out of the game you got to get out of the game I mean there's there's no question and the truth is you can get back into the game if you're really desperate to get back into the game but you you you can't feel like you're doing anybody favors you know by by doing this you got to be doing it for you and take whatever you can get from your survival jobs and and just keep trying.

[40:06] Samantha Tuozzolo: I love that thank you so much you know we have we have a lot of listeners who do feel stuck and discouraged so it's always nice to hear those words of encouragement from the other side. Um, so thank you so much. This was an amazing conversation. Again, we can come see this play. Um, like Jason said, we always love to end the show with a little game to just have a little bit of fun.

[40:31] Ethan Lipton: And we thought it could be fun to give you some trivia on your cast.

[40:36] Samantha Tuozzolo: Oh, great.

[40:40] Ethan Lipton: You know who's who?

[40:42] Samantha Tuozzolo: Um, no stress.

[40:44] Ethan Lipton: I'm famously known for cheating on this show.

[40:47] Samantha Tuozzolo: So if you're stuck, just look at me and I'll give a really good clue or the answer.

[40:53] Ethan Lipton: Okay.

[40:54] Samantha Tuozzolo: Yeah.

[40:54] Ethan Lipton: I look forward to to embarrassing myself here.

[40:57] Samantha Tuozzolo: Let's go for it. So we're gonna give you some some facts about the cast of Seat of Our Pants, and you're gonna let us know who it is.

[41:06] Jason A. Coombs: Awesome. Jay, you want to take the first?

[41:09] Ethan Lipton: Sure, sure.

[41:11] Jason A. Coombs: Uh okay. And this cast member's Broadway debut, she played a younger version of a known icon in a hit musical in which she received a theater world award for outstanding Broadway debut. Who is this cast member?

[41:25] Ethan Lipton: This cast member is the wisest member of our cast.

[41:30] Jason A. Coombs: Um, the young and amazing Michaela Diamond.

[41:33] Ethan Lipton: Yes, yes.

[41:35] Jason A. Coombs: Tony Nam.

[41:37] Ethan Lipton: Yes, she was on the show as well a while back.

[41:40] Jason A. Coombs: An amazing human being.

[41:42] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, right.

[41:44] Jason A. Coombs: Okay, so speaking of the public theater, this cast member was previously in the original cast of SUFS, which got its start at the public.

[41:53] Ethan Lipton: I think that has to be the amazing Allie Bonino.

[41:56] Jason A. Coombs: Correct.

[41:58] Ethan Lipton: Also another survival jobs guests.

[42:01] Jason A. Coombs: Well, she was in my woman's round table.

[42:03] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, she was. Another extraordinary human.

[42:06] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah.

[42:07] Ethan Lipton: You're crushing it.

[42:09] Jason A. Coombs: I know.

[42:09] Ethan Lipton: Allie Ali has responded.

[42:12] Jason A. Coombs: She just blows the roof off uh in our shift.

[42:15] Ethan Lipton: It's like a great, a great highlight in that too.

[42:19] Jason A. Coombs: Okay.

[42:20] Ethan Lipton: This cast member played Edgar Bean in Titanic.

[42:26] Jason A. Coombs: I'm gonna guess Shuler Henson.

[42:30] Ethan Lipton: No.

[42:30] Jason A. Coombs: No.

[42:31] Ethan Lipton: No.

[42:33] Jason A. Coombs: Edgar Bean.

[42:35] Ethan Lipton: Um his first name runs with Dill.

[42:42] Jason A. Coombs: With with Dill?

[42:43] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[42:44] Jason A. Coombs: Bill Buell?

[42:46] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[42:50] Ethan Lipton: I I yeah, I didn't I didn't see that show. Bill Buell was in my play to Macho, and is just one of the funniest, dearest human beings on planet Earth. Love Bill. And and is a um a sailor. Uh uh, yeah, has a boat, likes to go on the water.

[43:11] Jason A. Coombs: Love that.

[43:12] Ethan Lipton: I love to go too.

[43:16] Jason A. Coombs: Hello, Bill.

[43:16] Ethan Lipton: If you're listening, we'll listen.

[43:19] Jason A. Coombs: We like to sail.

[43:20] Ethan Lipton: We'll sail.

[43:21] Jason A. Coombs: I'm off, Bill.

[43:23] Ethan Lipton: So you guys do do do the show from from uh from the waters off Connecticut.

[43:28] Jason A. Coombs: Come on.

[43:29] Ethan Lipton: You think about it.

[43:32] Jason A. Coombs: Can you imagine the technical difficulties we we would have at sea with Wi-Fi and connection?

[43:37] Ethan Lipton: I can't even connect my mic today, guys.

[43:40] Jason A. Coombs: No, but we would be in person on the boat, so it might be a little bit easier.

[43:44] Ethan Lipton: Yeah.

[43:45] Jason A. Coombs: Perhaps, Jay, perhaps.

[43:47] Ethan Lipton: Okay, this cast member made her Broadway debut in The King and I and went on to win a Tony Award for her performance.

[43:54] Jason A. Coombs: Who is this cast member?

[43:57] Ethan Lipton: Ruthie Ann Miles.

[43:59] Jason A. Coombs: I the one and only literally.

[44:03] Ethan Lipton: Uh to be in the room and watch Ruthie work is amazing. She she is so um present in a way that is phenomenal. And and and just a total pro.

[44:21] Jason A. Coombs: Sure is.

[44:22] Ethan Lipton: She sure is.

[44:23] Jason A. Coombs: Okay, last one.

[44:25] Ethan Lipton: Yeah, last but not least.

[44:27] Jason A. Coombs: Five out of five here.

[44:29] Jason A. Coombs: This cast member received a Tony Award nomination for his portrayal of Curly in Oklahoma.

[44:35] Ethan Lipton: Who is this cast member?

[44:37] Jason A. Coombs: There's my man Schuller.

[44:41] Ethan Lipton: No.

[44:41] Jason A. Coombs: Sam.

[44:43] Ethan Lipton: No, wait a second.

[44:45] Jason A. Coombs: Uh Damon.

[44:46] Ethan Lipton: Yes.

[44:47] Jason A. Coombs: Damon.

[44:48] Ethan Lipton: Oh god.

[44:49] Jason A. Coombs: You know, with Oklahoma, it's tough.

[44:51] Ethan Lipton: Uh keep giving a Schuler question.

[44:54] Jason A. Coombs: You keep going to him.

[44:55] Ethan Lipton: I know, I keep going.

[44:56] Jason A. Coombs: I'm just assuming you got a shoulder question for me.

[44:58] Ethan Lipton: No shuler question.

[45:00] Jason A. Coombs: All right.

[45:01] Ethan Lipton: You know what? Ultimately, when you were incorrect, you got to the correct answer, so we're gonna give you 100%.

[45:06] Jason A. Coombs: And your prize is a VIP invite to the season four long party to Ryan Dogs, whenever that will be.

[45:13] Ethan Lipton: Come on, I'm there.

[45:14] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah.

[45:15] Ethan Lipton: We'll see you there.

[45:16] Jason A. Coombs: Ethan, this was amazing. This is such a good episode. Thank you so much for all of your stories and wisdom. Before we let you go, can you please let our listeners know how they can keep up with you on social media or a website and how how they can know what projects you have coming up?

[45:31] Ethan Lipton: Uh, I guess the thing I I update most frequently is Instagram. You have Emacs Lifton. Uh you can follow me there. Uh the website is Ethan Lipton.com. Our band will be doing some shows at Joe's pub in the spring, Ethan Lipton and his orchestra. And the seat of our opens next week uh at the public theater. Big musical, three acts, um, an amazing cast. And uh I hope people come and experience it.

[46:00] Jason A. Coombs: Yeah.

[46:02] Samantha Tuozzolo: Get your tickets, y'all.

[46:04] Jason A. Coombs: Tickets.

[46:04] Samantha Tuozzolo: And if you're tuning in to us for the first time because you're obviously an Ethan fan, give us a follow at Survival Jobs Pod on Instagram and TikTok at Survival Jobs a podcast on Facebook. Shoot us an email at survivaljobspod at gmail.com. Follow my boy Jason at Jason A. Coombs and me at Sammy Toots.

[46:19] Jason A. Coombs: Thank you.

[46:24] Samantha Tuozzolo: There they're there.

[46:26] Jason A. Coombs: Hey, hey, hey.

[46:28] Samantha Tuozzolo: Celebration.

[46:29] Jason A. Coombs: The party.

[46:30] Samantha Tuozzolo: It's a party.